Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep1: Bookshelfie: Motsi Mabuse

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Dancer Motsi Mabuse kicks off season six with all the glamour, energy and determination you’d expect from a Strictly judge but she also shares the books that have helped her manifest the life she enjoys today. Mosti Mabuse is a world-class professional dancer and has been bringing fun to the Strictly Come Dancing ballroom as a Judge since 2019. Originally from South Africa, Motsi started dancing at a young age. She studied Law at university, until she decided to dedicate her life to dance and moved to Germany.  She won the South African Latin American title eight times. In 2013 she became the German Latin dance champion with her now-husband whom she also runs a dance school with. Her book Finding My Own Rhythm documents the ups and downs, romances and heartbreaks, the obstacles and adversity, and the long hours that have led her to her success. Motsi’s book choices are:  ** Eat, Pray, Love by Elizabeth Gilbert  ** The Secret by Rhonda Byrne ** You Got Anything Stronger by Gabrielle Union **  Rachel’s Holiday by Marian Keyes ** Untamed by Glennon Doyle Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. After strictly, my team always come and like, you were great. And I have this thing that I just black out and go through strictly in my head to every single thing I said, how I am. Because my head does it.

And then it goes, tuck, that, not good, tuck, that good. It was from dancing. So then I kind of tell pressure, pressure, it's your day off. Chill, go to the sauna. Come back when I have something else where I need you. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world.

I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 6 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about. about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. Hello, welcome back to the podcast. This year's Women's Prize for Fiction Long List is out now and not to be missed. To discover the 16 brilliant authors and their books,

head over to our website wwwwomensprizefiction.co.com. I am excited because I get to speak today to Motsie Mavuse, a world-class professional dancer who has been bringing fun, to the Strictly Come Dancing Ballroom as a judge since 2019. Originally from South Africa, Mozzi started dancing at a young age. She studied law at university until she decided to dedicate her life to dance and move to Germany. She won the South African Latin American title eight times. In 2013, she became the German Latin dance champion with her now husband,

whom she also runs a dance school with. Her book, Finding My Own Rhythm, documents the ups and downs, romances and heartbreaks, the obstacles and adversity, and the long hours that have led her to the life that she enjoys today. Welcome to the podcast, Mozzi. Thank you. Yay. I have been wanting to talk to you for so long.

You know, usually when you say Mozzi, there's always like some sort of music coming on or people clapping. So I guess when I'm alone, I make my own vibe. I'm here for it. There's not like a ba-ba-da-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I'm going to admit to you is a sound, a piece of music that still gives me chills because it's tied up in real nerves for me. Like it takes me back to a time that was amazing and glittery and positive, but also nerve-wracking and scary and probably the most exhausted of my life.

Yeah. What does that music do for you when you hear it? Well, it's a lot. It's history that music in my ears. I was at the position first of dancing on the show and then I jumped the boat. And it's always, always connected with an emotion, definitely. And the emotions vary. And even from the side of a judge right now, the emotions vary so intensively.

And so it's not just the kind of music you hear and be like, okay. Yeah, there's always something. that comes with it, always, always. Well, you said about the applause, about the vibe, the atmosphere, the energy that comes with that. And, you know, just seeing you now and hearing your energy, you feel like such a people person. But before we came onto this podcast, you were saying, I'm currently, I'm in Germany, I'm in my home, I'm surrounded by nature, and away from people.

So, I mean, are you as extroverted as we'd expect, or are you a little bit more introverted? Do you like that time to yourself? I love the time to myself. I am actually, it's very difficult for people to actually kind of understand this. I became extrovert because it was a way of survival. That's like my survival mode. That's brought me right where I am in my life. But discovering more about myself, taking time out, different things in my life

that happened, I am actually quite, it depends. I call myself low key in the moments where I'm just by myself. I think everybody needs a certain type of balance. So the hyped up mercy is there, but the less hyped up mercy, the more the settled down type of mercy, he wants to breathe. So I need to take that time out quite often to kind of let myself. not be what I call myself. The room, you know, when I'm in a room, it has to be in a good mood.

I don't know why. I just get into this mode of trying to make absolutely everybody love, happy, no moment of sadness. So when I'm out of that space, I just kind of let my emotions run. And like every other human, I have a rainbow of emotions and they need their time. And where do books fit into that for you? Is reading an escape? Is it a grounding? Is it a piece for you? It's a grounding, it's an escape, but it's also just I always, I'm always always, always, in Germany you say farsion.

In English, I think the word is, you know, I'm always trying to discover ways of dealing with emotions. because I feel like I feel emotions quite intensively. And then I always read books to kind of see how people dealt with different situations or how I feel myself after reading a book. So it's always an experiment. Experience, experiment, yeah. Well, it's quite interesting looking through your boots because you have chosen predominantly pieces of nonfiction that I guess,

they give advice or outlooks on the world insights. How important have they been in the person that you've become in your growth? These books that I've mentioned here, they've become something like a kind of a roadmap of where I have been in those moments in my life. These are one of those books that made a difference. at that stage of my life. So I always have a kind of stage book. If you asked me this book, why this book, I'll say,

oh, yeah, I was going through that and I discovered this book, and that's why this book remained in my head. And they kind of leave something for a while. You know, you take them off. Let's say one of the biggest books, the one I read, the secret, was I was struggling. I was nine times German vice, pizza. So I was nine times second place.

Nine years. Nine years. And you get frustrated. You get angry. Then you come to a point of like, okay, what is it now? And there I read the secret. And I kind of understand. And I mean, you go through the most uncomfortable times.

And then to let go, read the secret and then watch this life blurring. up and win the German champion and go on to do let's dance. It's just like, okay. So these books become something of that for me, like a benchmark in my life. Well, let's get into those benchmarks. Let's get into those books that have guided you through these different stages of your life and find out a little bit more about those periods for you. And your first book, shelf your book is Eat, Pray, Love by Elizabeth Gilbert. This 2006 memoir chronicles the author's trip around the world after her divorce in search of pleasure, devotion and balance while travelling across India, Italy and Indonesia.

Tell us a little bit about this book. When did you read it? What kind of crutch was it for you at a point in your life? Well, I read it around about 2000. And I just picked it up. I mean, to be honest, I saw the movie. I didn't watch the movie. I saw the advertising of the movie with Julia Roberts.

There's a movie. So I just saw like, you know, the trailer, short trailer. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then I went to read the book because obviously it was just a trailer. So I read the book and I just was like, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. off of the book I was like is this me? When a book does that when you're questioning you're like have you been watching me how do you know

big brother in my house yeah because you know I came from South Africa very very early in my life and my parents were extremely strict so like over the norm and education and excel and be good and I mean obviously they loved us but we did understand that we have to kind of have a certain level in life. And then I did all of that and then I got married quite early and then you start discovering yourself like with 28, 29, when the dancing stops and you're like, oh, who am I? And like I'm almost 30 and I went through this thing where I just like felt like I'm just I'm starting my youth. And then also obviously I went through

a divorce and going through the divorce was one of the hardest things in my life, absolutely for my brains, for my soul. And reading this book kind of comforted me because I understood that we all go through these emotions. I didn't have that possibility of, you know, at that time, let's say Elizabeth, to travel the world, to be free to do that. I didn't have that. But I understood the feelings that she felt going through her.

Yeah, her story. And it helped quite a lot also to try to explain to my mom what I'm going through because they're quite traditional. So they just didn't get it when I was like, no, I just, I'm not, I'm done. And I was like, you want to understand what I'm going through. You want to feel what I'm going through. Just read this book and maybe it will give you an insight of my emotional status of my mental status.

It was great. It was great. I held on that book quite for a bit. like I just kept on reading it and reading it and reading it until I think I was like, okay, I'm ready. And what was it that you took from it? How did it help? Well, it helped in the sense that what I was feeling was normal.

Yeah. Like from the outside, people can look at a perfect situation and judges from the outside and not knowing what was going on inside. And the different feelings of also standing there and saying, I'm starting from the beginning. You must remember when I came here, I came alone with my little suitcases and my plastic bags. I dedicated all my life to dancing. And there was no going back for me in my head to South Africa until I was like in a certain level.

So understanding that I have to start alone and that at the end something beautiful might come out of this weary times. you mentioned that you know you pressed this book into your mum's hands to help her to try and understand what you were thinking what you were feeling what you were going through and that it was often difficult for her to see where you're coming from because of a completely different culture and upbringing and background and when it came to dance were there odds at which you found yourselves at because you said that she valid you're in I've got an African mum I've got an African son my family, I know that if I'd said I want to do dance, I don't know how it would have gone down. Talk to me about your decision to pursue a career in dance and how that was received by your loved ones. So the thing is, our mom pushed us to dance. She pushed us. And I asked her this Christmas, like, well, how come you pushed us so in this direction? Obviously, as my sister and I are probably unique in this dance form. Obviously, in South Africa there, I'm. other dances, but at this level, we're quite unique.

So I was just like, you know what, you guys, you girls had so much fun and I got to spend time with you the whole day. So she was very, very protective like that. But then it changed when we got older, when we were 18 and I was like, I want to dance. I want to make this my, my passion, my profession. Then they were like, no, because my dad is a judge, you know, they believe in freedom in academics. and freedom, that kind of thing.

So he was like, I'm a lawyer, you're going to be a lawyer. We're all going to do law. End of story. And I'm the older sister. So, you know, when your parents are like, you're going to do it, you're like, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.

I'm going to be a boyfriend. So I started studying law and I pushed through their dreams. But then they came a cut. I mean, I gathered the strength to move to Germany. And I was like, listen. trust in everything that you have taught us that I will make the best of this opportunity. And it took a while, Vicki, I tell you, it took like me being 10 years in Europe. To be honest, I honestly think it took them seeing me on strictly.

Really? Yes, because I've been doing this show, like this format for 15 years. That's how long. I started like when I was 28 or something, I got into this. So when I came to Strictly, they saw me on their couch on Sunday from South Africa. And I think that was the aha moment for them saying, okay, we can come down. Otherwise, I'll tell you, every Easter, every holiday, they're like, you can always come back home, you know. I'm like, guys, I have a job.

I get it. I was doing radio for years and years and years. And it wasn't until I was on Capitol, Radio and all this, it wasn't until the first time I was on Radio 4 that my mum was like, oh my gosh, she's done it. She's got a job. I was like, Mom, I'm just a guest on one show. It's because it's a show, it's a show she listens to. It's a show her friends listen to.

She could tell them about it. And now she's like, you're going to be okay. You don't need a plan B. But I needed one for like a decade before. So you get, you get what I mean, right? Yeah. And why was it so important to you? Why do you love dance?

I love dancing because I, it was the way to get away from everything. It's just so fun when you speak about what was going on in South Africa when you grow up. Because people kind of, they're in a certain place of saying, yeah, get over it, but you can't get over it. So dancing was that part of freedom where nothing matters. My skin color, my origin, nothing absolutely matters than the connection to my partner, which starts essentially with a connection to myself. and then kind of like being able to listen to music and feeling I like when I was dancing I was not

seen I like I wasn't I it was an emotion like that was the like this is what the people get so that's why I love dancing I could disappear into it I could I could just yeah it just makes me happy like I need to dance like five minutes every time I still do online teaching and all of that in my school. And when I'm a little bit tired, and I'm like, oh, my goodnessness. And I sit there five minutes before the class. And then I just, the warm up, just the warm up,

just the music, just getting up there and moving a little bit. It makes such a difference. This is the advice I give to absolutely everybody. If you feel down, if you kind of need to get in the mood, it's the cheapest way to happiness, you know. Put on your music, move. You don't judge yourself. in the murder, just move, close your eyes and let it take you away. It helps. It really helps.

No matter what you're going through, no matter what you've got to worry about that day, even if it's just the length of one song, that is three and a half minutes of pure, unadulterated euphoria that no one can take away from you. Oh, wait. Definitely, definitely. And that's the power of music and the power of movement, yeah. No, I feel you. I do the same every single morning. It's what gets me up in the morning. We must. Like, yeah. I would do it. She's got this thing of, you know, in the weekend she gets up totally fine. In the week, she's like, oh, I need to sleep.

Oh, I need to sleep. And she goes to kindergarten. And I'm like, Alexa, do your thing. And then it takes, like, it's half of the job done. That's it. Your second book that you brought today, Moxie, is the secret, which you mentioned at the beginning there by Ronda Byn. The Worldwide Best Selling Self-Help Book,

based on the 2006 feature-length film of the same name, explores the belief of the pseudoscientific law of attraction, which claims that thoughts can change a person's life directly. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you pick this book? This book is the go-to-book, so you don't read it once. You read it every single three years or something like that because we tend to forget. We tend to forget that we attract, you know,

we attract. Our energy, our energy speaks before we speak. Like eyes, looking at people, like body language, all of this is a part of energy. I had to go through like I can't even say. I had to go through so many challenges throughout the dancing career. Our type of dance in Boreum Latin dancing is not the healthiest place to be. And to come to another country, and to fight to be a champion of this country where nobody looks like you and you're just in this fight deep in it you start questioning yourself over everything you know absolutely everything it was so bad at a certain state that i tried to tan my skin oh because i was like i was like what everybody's doing it and how am i going to and i was like oh come on girl calm down

So it was going through all of that. And then right at the point of when I was like just before I gave up, I came across the book and just listening to it. I think the first time I listened to it, I was driving. And then I actually went to buy the book because I was like, I can't drive and listen to this book because I went to the side and it was just breathing and breathing. And so it's just, it's to understand how much power we have within ourselves towards situations

and towards, you know, how we can affect situations. And I'm not saying ignore everything. And if you're really doing bad, just think of, oh, happy times, the secret is going to work. It's a continuous way of being. And to understand also sometimes that maybe I wasn't ready. to be a German champion at that time. Maybe I had to go through those nine years because I was being taught to fight for something

that I really, really want. Maybe I had to go through those nine years to be able to live the life that I'm living right now. So it's just a book I read quite, quite often, and it's stuck. I still even hear her voice in my head. Like, I hear her voice, I hear the words now and then. And when I'm down, I just remember, come on, come on, come on, remember.

Remember Rhonda? That's it. As well as becoming German champion, what sort of things have you manifested in your life due to the teachings of this book? Well, you are faced with extraordinary things. Even like right now, we all have wishes and we all want certain things. And I always, I was the most taking of all of this for me is everything comes as a time. And when it comes, you better be prepared because it might come and you are not prepared. And then you kind of feel that, oh my God, I miss my opportunity.

I also don't believe in missing opportunity, but I believe in being prepared. So you've got a vision. I have a vision. I know what I want in my life. It's quite clear. It's actually my strength of my life, the vision that's quite clear in my head. So all I'm doing right now is going through life, preparing myself for that vision. And it's nothing huge.

It's nothing like I'm not sitting here and saying, I want to drive this car. It's just the basics of life to feeling that inner happiness, inner satisfaction, if that's the word, just to be okay with myself and to be able to translate that to my husband to my child and those are the goals so I'm just yeah I'm just living it now talking about that strength that inner strength it's something that when I picture you from your description from just before of a feeling seen of feeling like dance was a place you could escape to when you were growing up during apartheid I imagine that a lot of becoming who you are and becoming resilient and becoming strong

came from the obstacles and the adversity of that situation. Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up? Yes. It was not, when you were in it, you don't think it's as bad as it was. But it was not the nicest place to be. So we grew up in a black area where only black people were allowed to live.

We were allowed to travel in and out of Pretoria, but we were separated. So when we were in our area with all the black children, everything, life was kind of normal. But because we started at early age at school, I started with the first grade. I went to a private school. Sounds fancy. Our parents gave all the money for our education. And so now we were confronted day by day by these. racism issue. So the only day off we got away from racism is on the weekend. And it was very,

very different in South Africa because the racism in South Africa is in your face. It's not joking around. It's like they tell it straight as it is so you know your place. It was a harsh racism. And then South Africa kind of eased up and then obviously for those people who were doing a little bit better, they moved us. And my parents were like, okay, let's move into this area. It's better for your schooling. It's better for travel, community centers, and so on. But now you don't get your day off from racism.

Now you're in the area. Now you can't even go from the street down to your house without being heckled. You can't go to school in the school bus without being heckled. And you are a little girl. And, you know, I was tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. And you are faced with these fears day in and day night. And then you start dancing competition and this re-occur. And it sounds like the harshest thing of all to put it in perspective is a nun in our school calling me a black witch, a nun.

And that's as a child. I mean, in a, you know, a convert school. I mean, a kind of, how do you, religious school. So the religion is telling you love everybody, your brother and sister, like you're all one. And then you have that one person of authority that's supposed to be taking care of you. And she calls you a black witch. So as a child, you're just really in a place of being hurt, not being seen, and doubting yourself forever. for like forever because all our parents were doing as children were being cheerleaders

because they were like, no, there's no way we're accepting this. We are going to go to the hotels. We are going to travel in our land. You are going to have benefit of the education. And they meant it's good to make us strong, to make us brave. But there was no time for us to be compassionate for ourselves. There was no time for me to say, I'm sorry, Mutsi, you have to go through this. I'm sorry, Muzi.

Like even at the competition where we could see we were better and you still came like last. My parents would never say, yeah, it's racism. They'd say, go back to the studio, practice. You have to be better. So there was no space of kind of even acknowledging the situation. And then you obviously, as I said, then there's lockdown and you get to sit and there's nothing else to do and you watch everything on Netflix and you're sitting in lockdown. And then you have, and everything comes up, everything comes back.

And then I realized, oh my gosh, we grew up in such a situation. It's crazy that we actually somehow find a way to have joy in that type of harshness. And I'm not blaming my parents because all they had to do was make sure we survived. And they did a good job. So it wasn't until 2020 and we're sitting in lockdown that you started to really mull over what had happened such a long time before in your life. Was that a time that you then learned to be compassionate to yourself, as you just put it? Yes.

So what happened in lockdown is like with everybody else, we started, you started questioning yourself. And then I started an online program because I was like, come on, I'm not going through this. I must not be the only person going through this. So I went on my socials. I did a 12th week challenge online because we were all in lockdown. down. And then there was a coach online and she started speaking and I was not really into these coaching things. She was a she was like therapist but she did coaching and all of the motivation and all of that. So while she was speaking I one day I was like listen I need one on one because

while you're speaking I feel so I feel so much of what you're saying. So she offered me and then throughout lockdown or every single week I was speaking with her and obviously it starts from the beginning and then just to go through your childhood oh my gosh it's just like yeah because when she says okay you want to say something to small tiny little mootze and then you have nothing left to say except tears just like tears and tears and tears and then understanding okay first let little mootze offload and then you can speak with her so that was the moment where when it all made sense for me to kind of look back to South Africa because I worked from day one. I arrived in Germany and even to this day I'm just always telling myself, take it easy, but there's that one person that says, you need to push it. Come on, girl, move. I do. Yeah.

Baileys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Well, on the subject of harnessing those things

that have happened to us in the past and using them to make us stronger, but also to interrogate what might have happened and what could still be happening inside. We move on to your third book, shelfy book today, which is by Gabrielle Union. and it's you got anything stronger. It's a collection of essays

from the activist, actress and social media influencer exploring intimate subjects including sexual assault, racism, infertility, friendship and motherhood. Did this book inspire you? How did it touch you? Wow, this book is so

so brutally honest. Like she lays it out there and she is so vulnerable in this book. And you know, we know Gabriella Union from bad boys and movies and stuff like this. And she's glamorous, she's beautiful. She's like this picture in my head. And then I took this book hers. And when I read it, I'm like, courage, the guts to speak like this.

And she's, I feel like she has removed herself from what happened to her. to get there where she is because I think sometimes we kind of, something happens to us and it affects us, but we hold on to that pain, to all of that, and just hearing her speak like that. And obviously I don't know what's happening behind closed doors. You never know. But it was so inspiring to understand that sometimes if you are vulnerable, first of all, you connect with other people because there's some sort of connection where we all feel similar or the same. But secondly, speaking about your vulnerabilities, your feelings and everything, you help

a lot of people. So I was just like, obviously when I'm on strictly and on under the shows and stuff, I'm quite emotional person, very emotional, very unfortunately sensitive, which doesn't make my life easier. It's not unfortunate though. It's a part of you and it's, you know what people really connect to that because we all have emotions. Yeah, true, true. But when you're on television and you see like a movement or even us talking now, I can feel the like the bubbles of emotions coming to my throat and I'm like, go back. Because it's a thing when people look you from outside and you see Hamza doing an African dance for the first time.

in strictly and you have no words and you cry and that sort of vulnerability on such an open space is still something I also have to figure out for myself to be okay, completely okay with people seeing me being emotional, even though I've been doing it for 15 years. There's just those moments that just get me that I connect so much with it. And Gabriele went through, I think one of the worst victims that women go through. And she is striving. She's, I follow her on social media. And now also how they're supporting their daughter.

It's quite inspiring for me to see her go through that and come out the way she is. I just, I just feel it doesn't matter what she posts. I'm like, go Gabby. Go Gabby. She's amazing. Did her book and reading her book inspire you to open up in your own book? Well, it inspired, yes, definitely, definitely, really definitely. But I still kept a lot out of my book because I was like, this is as far as I can tell the story that I can accept.

So it's all stages. I did say I want to write another book when I am at that space in my life because I think decisions we take in life affect you. the worst things in life can come in the most positive way in your life. So I'm just, that's going to be in the second chapter. But there was boundaries first time around. But going to this, you know, especially as a black woman when you speak about racism and if you speak about the injusticeness, is that people kind of, there's this new word. I love this new word.

It's called the victim card. And I always say, you know, I went through almost over half of my life through racism. I am still going through racism now to this day. How does that fit with victim card? Because, you know, you cannot tell a person when they should stop hurting if things that are happening today are still hurting them. And with Gabrielle is just a way of, of trying to express and show how much vulnerability can make you better. And with my book, I kind of was like, let me let them know at least what we were

feeling in South Africa. It seems so far away. But let me just open up and show how much we really went through. So just not for people to kind of like, you know, to make people feel guilty, not at all. It's just that you reading this can maybe understand me more. I feel like often when you're in the public eye, there is a responsibility that sort of bestowed on you to be the gatekeeper of opinions about any of these issues

that might have affected you. And yes, great, I want to help wherever I can. But sometimes I need to protect my own energy. And I remember around the time of Black Lives Matter, the movement gaining momentum and surging and getting asked in every single interview, constantly being asked, can you come on TV and talk about this? And I was like, you know what, I'm actually having to. to mind my own emotions a lot right now.

And I was so overwhelmed that it took me to a very dark place. And you just think, how many times do you want us to go through this? And why do I have to do this for you? You understand, I'm like that dog, that dog that's in the car. This is nodding. I'm just nodding, nodding. And, you know, in Germany, I'm one of the most visual black woman like and it's been 15 years so anything that happens to color or different

race i'm just the go-to person they're like do you want to say and with the black lives matter watching floyd and all of that i literally was crying in front of my cell phone and all i was thinking was oh my gosh we are at a state in our lives where we see somebody die on our phones that was the thought. So I needed a few weeks to process that you might be scurly looking for sushi and the next shoes to wear to, oh, a man dies. It's normal. So I was fighting that. And then, though, from then on, to be asked in every situation to speak about racism or, you know, every, like every newspaper being, okay, now you have to talk about that. I was like, no, I put it on my socials. I was so angry and I thought it was also legit to be angry because I was like, no, you guys don't ask me about anything for 15 years.

And now you come calling and ask me about this. I refuse. I refuse. And there's people that have studied this and their professors in Germany. There's people that their voices need to be heard right now. And I do feel like we as women, generally, all women, we have different facets in our lives. and we should be able to kind of even live in that facet, be an activism for that.

I am for joy. I am for you standing up, making yourself happy. I am for you connecting to your feelings. So I'm going to try, because I need that to protect myself, to take care of myself. And then I can be that for you.

So I just, boundaries. Boundaries. I think that's something we clearly have to exercise so much when you're writing a book. It's towing that line between sharing, giving your emotions as an emotional person, but then also not having to mine your trauma for the public consumption of others because that is not what it is and you need to protect your energy because, and I always say this joy, especially black joy and especially the joy of a black woman is in itself radical.

That is political. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And a big big yes for me. Let's talk about your fourth book now, which is Rachel's Holiday by Marion Keys, the seminal romantic comedy about a 27-year-old New Yorker who likes to party too hard and is forced into rehab by her straight-laced sister is a tale of addiction, denial, and the need for acceptance. I think this is the only piece of fiction on your list today. Yes, it is.

Why did you pick this book? On holiday. I was on holiday. I flew in. That's the best thing about working between Germany and London is that I really can't get my books in English. It is still the better language for me to read. And then I just took it at the airport.

It was just like there. I was going on holiday. It says Rachel's holiday. I read nothing about it. I just saw the book. And I was like, okay, take it. And then I read it. And I found it so.

You know, obviously I'm a fan. of Marion Keys now because obviously after you read one good book you continue reading all of the other books and she's I always feel like it's light and nice and easy and you know you it's kind of really a full good kind of reading so but this one was kind of deep as the first book it was kind you know dealing with addiction and when Rachel actually really sees oh my god like something is not okay here and then finding you yourself again. And again, it was that period of my life when I was going through the divorce, where I kind of just needed to understand everything is going to be okay at the end. And this is

all quite normal. But it's a nice book. You know, you don't feel, I don't feel pressurized afterwards. Like, you know, sometimes you read books and then you're like, right, I'm going to do this. And it's not one of those books. It's just a nice book to, to it's funny and it's just a nice book you can read it fast and not think too too much yeah I like the lilt of marian's writing I always feel like it's um yeah it feels like a song feels quite yeah it's got like a melody to it's like you can see her it's like I can see marian yeah well now that I know who she is so yeah she's a huge strictly fan she's always like tweeting constantly throughout the shows I love her I love her too

I'm always like tweet like tweet that's also not a place to be on Twitter. Oh my gosh. We'll talk about your relationship with social media in just a moment because it is knowing from experience, people get really, really enthusiastic, passionate, invested in that show. There are super fans and it's a lot online. And I think sometimes you have to realize that the online world is not fully real. But you mentioned that this was a holiday real, talking about real life, but also taking yourself out of real life. How often do you take your holidays? How often do you take a break from work?

Do you have a good work-life balance? I am going to be honest because I'm speaking to you. I'm looking at your face. I feel like I know the answer. I don't think there is for me, like literally for people, I think there's no work-life balance. Really. What I mean is that we get so prejudiced in attaining that work-life balance. And I just feel like there is, you need to be quite clear what you want. And then you try to the best of the ability to reach that.

So I just said, this just happened like an hour ago. I spoke to my husband and we're like, okay, we need to now separate our times. You need time alone. I need time alone. And that's the ultimate goal. So I'm not in the week looking for some work-life balance or anything. We've got benchmarks. So we were like, okay, Easter holidays.

We are off, completely off. We're going to Spain. And then Christmas holidays. And then we look like for every six weeks, we try to find somewhere to switch off. And that's the ideal for us. So in the week, in two weeks now in the season, our new let's dance season started, I definitely know that I'm not going to be looking for work-life balance in the times because all it does is frustrates me.

It really frustrates me because I'm just like, oh my God, now, no, I'm like, no, it's this period. It's this period. And in six weeks, it's period, walk on the beach and then come back, give it a bang. and then off to Greece in summer and that's it. I've stopped using the word. I like the sound of period walk on the beach. You know, yeah, because I do feel like nowadays, there's absolutely, you have to decide what type of life you want to live.

Motsie, it's time to talk about your final book today, your fifth book, selfie pick, which is untamed by, Glennon Doyle. Part memoir, part self-development guide. This book is packed full of advice about how to access to joy and peace within us, which is something we've been talking about throughout this episode. When we stop striving to meet the expectations of the world and instead dare to listen to and trust in the voice deep inside of us. Why did this resonate with you? This resonated. It started with lockdown. Like I said, there it is. There is. There is very much. It's very No, so in lockdown, it was just one of those books that I started reading.

I don't know, maybe I heard an advert or something, and I just started reading. And it was little stories, and it was also understanding what was happening with the author herself to kind of look back at yourself. I'm like, okay, I can see that, I can see that. And it just helped in lockdown. I do believe we move on in life. And what I mean is that the mootie of today is not the mozzi from 10 years ago. And even there was my 30s and stuff.

So having to understand that you kind of have to say goodbye to that person. To really come back, to come to who you are now is an opportunity. We always kind of miss. I can say thank you to my 30s. you for teaching me this. I am not her anymore and say hi to who I am today. So that's that book for me to understand that there's phases in life and you just have to, you know, finish with them, conclude with them to get into your next life. Because if you don't, you're not living in now. You know, I'm living in where I was going through that and that and that. And I'm carrying

that to now where I'm changing Pampers and all of that. you're going to have a conflict within yourself. This theme of accessing joy and peace, not even theme, this phenomenon, this pursuit for me has come from realizing that I don't need to please everyone all the time. Do you have people pleasing tendencies? I find a lot of people who are in entertainment, especially when you're being judged,

literally you're doing dance competitions. You're being judged. It's part of it. Do you have those tendencies? And how do you combat that? I have those tendencies and I have like literally invested in reading, in therapy and everything. And I still don't get why it becomes such a thing.

Why do I go there and not say stop boundaries and stuff? And I think that's this people pleasing thing you have. in the media when you're in TV, that you, there's a certain validation, you know, and I think it's gotten worse with social media because it's all about numbers, likes and all of that and kind of putting the right content out there. And it just makes the thing bigger than it is. So it's something I honestly have to say I'm still working on. And I also connected to my past because inside.

Africa, our boundaries were taking away. And it's something I have to, I'm proud of myself when I see the spaces. Like there's spaces where I'm like, oh, I did that. I said no. But there's spaces where I've overgone and really lost it. And I was like, oh, maybe that was a too hard reaction. So I'm just going through this, that, that face. But to be honest, I think we have it from birth, all of us instinctively as a child.

and you know oh do this for mommy and all that and it starts there and like it's starting from the core to make sure that we don't pass it on i really really hear you with that just feeling away through how do i react and i guess it all comes down to listening to myself because i'll feel like oh i've got to really say no because i've never said no before but actually i how do i feel in this one moment and something that i do think goes back to youth i was an overachiever because i felt the need to prove myself. Like, you were the only black girl to leave South Africa to pursue this career in professional dancing.

What kind of pressure did that put on you? And what kind of pressure did you put on yourself to be the best? A lot. I did. And yeah, it was a lot of pressure. It's still a lot of a lot of pressure because it continues. Like when I started television, I was then the only black person there in the jury. And, and I was like, okay.

And now I have to represent all black women and show we are strong and show we are funny and show. And then it just is a pressure like on top of all the other pressures that we all go through. But I have these little conversations with myself when I'm driving and I'm like, calm down. Because I have to hear myself say it because the pressure, the pressure is there as a survival instinct. The pressure is there to keep me going. is there and has got me where I am. But I don't need that pressure where I am in life now. But the pressure doesn't know it.

Yeah. So I literally have to tell pressure, pressure, I love you, I cherish you. You're the best part of my personality. But you need to chill because otherwise I'm not, like there's other parts of me that also need to breathe. So it's tough. I have that personality.

I have that personality to always want to excel, to always being ambitious. So you'll hear me up and to going, okay. Like after Strictly, my team always come and like, you were great. And I have this thing that I just black out and go through strictly in my head to every single thing I said, how I am. Because my head does it. And then it goes, tak, tak, that, not good, tak, that good. It was from dancing. So then I kind of tell pressure, pressure, it's your day off.

Chill, go to the sauna, come back when I have something else where I need you. I could really learn for this. I should start personifying the pressure and start talking to it. Because actually, you know what, it also comes from a place of respecting it because it did you well. Like, you needed it at a time. That's what got you to where you are. It's a part of you. But also you need to be kind to yourself.

You are on this pedestal and you are on this huge platform. you're on the biggest show on TV on Saturday nights and I can understand that you feel that responsibility to represent it sounds like to represent all black women because there's not much representation on that platform how do you cope with public opinion and and also the reaction online we've touched on it a few times on social media but what is it like and how do you navigate it what you feed into comes back to you so I had a problem with Twitter when I started strictly And then I actually even at a certain time, it's like, oh, no, I'm not going to use this platform anymore. But I've realized that, you know, even on Twitter, if you look for the funny stuff, you'll find the funny tweets.

If you look for the reels, they even have real. So what I do strictly is I feed into the positivity. And I am telling you it's enormous. I just have to say. And the best support I get from the gay community, they're like, yeah, mama. And I just, I feed into it because it gives me so much. And Twitter is not a platform, for example, where you post pictures.

But I do because they are there and they're like, we love it. And it's good. And I don't mind critic, really. It's how you say it. And that's what you feed into. If you cross my boundaries, I block you. I don't even invest. And sometimes I'm weak.

And that happens. Sometimes where I do reply, where I do something, then I regret it and deleted it because then I feed, I fed into that energy. It's quite difficult to be disciplined enough for yourself. And we try to be disciplined about eating, about doing this and this, but we never discipline on how much of social media we take into our life. So, and that's like with every exercise, discipline is uncomfortable. So I've unfollowed anything that makes me feel like not worthy. Even if it's a model who looks great in their underwear, if I feel for myself that I'm not healthy enough to look at it,

you're off my socials. So we have to protect ourselves in that way. Otherwise, we're walking into an open life. I need positivity in my life. I follow people that give me joy. that inspire me. I follow. I want to see hairstyles.

I'm learning to love my hair and take care of my hair. I want to see what Zendaya is wearing. I want to see Biki do her thing. I want women around me that are just like, wow. And that's it. That's what social media is to get inspired. Otherwise, you can't deal with it. People are hurtful.

People are angry. People are rude. People are, I don't know. you know, insensitive. And in a normal life, if you would walk in the street, you'd tell them, are you mad or you'd get away from that? But in social media, we don't. We get stuck.

Like, I had this very dress this Saturday where obviously everybody had an opinion. But I looked at the people that were positive. And then I looked at the 10 negative comments. And I'm like, that was a weak moment, by the way. And I was so upset. And then I was like, why are you looking at 10 comments? from 300 comments. What's wrong with you?

That's where I check myself. That's why I check. And then I just delete them and I'm like, block them, get back home, take your time off, do your exercises or go eat cake, do something. Bless yourself. Bless yourself, girls. Bless yourself.

That's it. It's about blessing yourself, checking yourself this book that you've brought to us today and Tamed by Glenn and Doyle. It's a book about having confidence in your inner voice about leaning into the joy, accessing the positivity, and then something you've just brought to us today, feeding the positivity.

And that's something I think we can all take away. So thank you, Motsie. Thank you. My final question to you is, if you had to choose just one book from your list, as a favourite, what would it be right? Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I will choose, I will choose the secret. it seems so cliche-haved. I know. I've known half the world's probably read it. But I say it's that book that you should read once a year. Once a year. And today, if you don't want to kind of read it, find space for it. Do some audio.

I don't know. There's so much this year. Videos. There's podcasts. There's absolutely everything to gain that information. So I would say just the secret, just keep on reading. I definitely believe in the law of attraction. And I definitely believe in time.

Time, time. Everything comes as it should. So don't fuss about things that are not happening or whatever. Enjoy what's happening right now. Enjoy speaking to Vicky. Enjoy that. That is what my life at this moment is about nothing else. And what a moment it is.

Thank you so much. I don't want the moment to end. I have so many more things that I would love to talk to you about. Seriously. But you know what? The secret as your favourite and the recommendation there for everyone listening, I think we're all sold. And we'll keep feeding that positivity. Just like I told us to do. Thank you. Thank you for giving me the space. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much. for listening and I'll see you next time.