Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep14: Bookshelfie: Nadiya Hussain

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

Nadiya Hussain joins Vick at The Women’s Prize Live Festival  to talk about family values, fig trees and why she’s so open about her mental health.  Nadiya Hussain is a  renowned British TV chef, author, presenter, and baker. Of course she is known and loved as the winner of the sixth season of The Great British Bake Off in 2015. Since then, she has gone on to become a TV presenter, hosting her own cooking shows including Nadiya's British Food Adventure and Nadiya's Time to Eat. She is also a writer, having penned several bestselling cookbooks, including her latest book Simple Spices, which is out this September. In 2019 she was awarded an MBE. And as if that wasn’t enough, she’s also a talented illustrator and has written several children's books.  Nadiya’s book choices are:  ** You Are Not a Before Picture by Alex Light ** Joy Rider by Angela Scanlon ** People Person by Candice Carty-Williams ** The Island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak ** How to Kill Your Family by Bella Mackie Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

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I love that for you. I love that. The sun is shining. You're sipping on a cocktail. As I always say, it's 10 a.m. somewhere. Let's have a lovely live. Thank you so, so much for taking the time

to join us, to be here today. Welcome to this very special episode of bookshelfy, brought to you from the Women's Prize Live in London's Bedford Square Gardens in front of a wonderful live audience. Can we hear it one more time? With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives,

all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 6 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about. about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. I am absolutely delighted to be joined on the stage by Nadia Hussein. Renowned, yes, go on, go on.

Renowned British TV chef, author, presenter and baker. Of course, she has known and loved as the winner of the sixth season of the Great British Bake Off in 2015. Since then, she's gone on to become a TV presenter, hosting her own cooking shows, including Nadia's British Food Adventure and Nadia's Time to Eat. She's also a writer having penned several best-selling cookbooks, including her latest book, Simple Spices, which is out this September. In 2019, she was awarded an MBE, and as if that wasn't enough, she's also a talented illustrator and has written several children's books.

Please welcome to the podcast, Nadia. Thank you. We've just been chatting all about books before we even came on the stage. We're talking about the most recent book that you read. Bonnie Garmus' Lessons in Chemistry. Yeah. Oh, you know, like, you know there's a book that's going to just like, oh, it's going to stick. I just love Elizabeth Zott's the character. She's just so fiery, and it's like everything I want my daughter to be. Like everything, like just go fight everybody.

Just fight everything. Like, I just want my daughter to be like her. Well, it feels like it's a book that you would, of course, naturally gravitate towards as a TV chef. Did you see a lot of stuff that you recognise from the world that you navigate? Yeah, when I'd read about the book and I'd heard about it, I thought, oh, I've got to, because there are very few people in the world who can relate to that being behind that camera. So I was like, I have to read, like, it's a must. It was like, it was calling me.

And so I had to read it. And it's, it's, for Bonnie to have captured what it feels like to be behind the camera without having even been a TV chef herself. Who doesn't, by the way, Bonnie doesn't cook? We were on a panel last week together. She doesn't even like cooking. Really? But does she like science?

She loved science? No, she doesn't. She did the research for science. But she does science, cooking, it's not her thing at all. Like, how does she write? Like, it's so, I thought it was really clever. I think she's just an amazing writer. But when she said, I don't, I said, look, if we're going to have a friendship,

then I'll cook, you eat. She said, yeah, that's fine. It works out. It works out, right? Just say, we can have a friendship. I like the sound of the dynamic. I'm happy to cook if you're happy to eat. I love to eat. Perfect.

And what was she like as a person? Just amazing. I think there was something about her that she didn't say very much, but in the very little that she did say, she kind of put across really strong, important messages. And she's very kind of, like, unlike me, I'm a bit like a puppy, which my husband cannot stand sometimes. She's like, just stop. Just stop.

Like, so I just get really excited about things. And she's just very, like, I want to be. like her when I'm older, like just really calm and like really controlled and like she kind of commands authority which and she just seems like she's an amazing writer and she just everything she says you will take and you will take with you and it will stay with you. It's a really interesting thing to say that the author is someone I want to be like when I'm older but the character is someone I want my daughter to be like. Yeah. She's older. Yeah. When you are reading, when you're getting lost in books, how much.

much does having children play into what you love or the characters you're drawn towards? Well, I think growing up, books didn't play a huge part in my life. You know, I didn't go to a, when I think about what I did with my children, I would actively take them to a library on the weekend, and we would get books out, and books were a big part of our lives. We'd read bedtime stories. Unfortunately, mine are grown out of reading bedtime stories. I don't read bedtime stories to them, but they like to, my little girl loves to read out loud. So she reads to me now, so it's kind of gone the other way. So I didn't grow up with books,

and I didn't really understand how wonderful they can be until I had children myself. And so books have played a huge part in my life. And so when I read now, I kind of, I'm always recommending things to the kids. I'm like, God, you guys are going to read this year. And they're big readers as well. So it's a big part of our life now,

unlike my own childhood growing up, it wasn't something that we did as children. When did you discover books? then. When did you find that they were something that you could love to? Does anyone remember the mobile library? Do you guys remember the mobile library? Yeah, we had on the big. It would come to Newcastle, yeah. Right. So mobile libraries, right? So we had a very small library in our, in our, I grew up in Luton. So we had a very small library and I'd read through everything. Like I'd already read through everything. And so they, they would have a mobile library come every week. And we had 20 minutes. 20 minutes in a library is not enough. Yeah, they put the stopwatch on. don't they? They're like, in? Out.

Yeah. 20 minutes. I'm like, I can't do this in 20 minutes. And I remember being sat in a corner and my teacher, Mrs. Norton, said, it's time to go, Nadia, we've got to go. And I'm like, I really don't want to go. She goes, we have to go. And then she, I don't know what she did, but, it's magic of teachers,

but she stood outside and she allowed me another five minutes. And I don't know how she did it or what she did, but I was allowed another five minutes in a corner to read a book. And I think the silence that you create around you when you read a book is something that was the thing that captured me is that when I'm reading a book,

I'm on my own on this journey in this story by myself and nobody's involved and it's a way of kind of shutting all of that out and I think that's why I love reading books and now I have teenagers so can I say that's why I love books even more now because I'm like, if that book is open don't talk to me.

Do not talk to me. If that book is open, they talk but I try and take books in the bath and they still talk to me. Still, I know. You're really selling having children. Yeah. Because I myself like to read in the bath on my own.

Yeah, well, they do become useful. Okay. They're really cute to begin with, but they do become quite useful later. Well, we're going to talk about the books that have shaped you, the books that have brought you, that silence and that escape when you've needed it at the most. And your first book, Shelfy Book today, Nadia, is You Are Not a Before Picture by Alex Light, a long overdue rebuttal of diet culture and the deeply ingrained systems that continually put us in opposition with our body image.

This book equips readers with a way out of the oppressive structures of the diet industry, working with experts in the fields of psychotherapy, fitness and nutrition. Alex empowers readers to finally feel free in their bodies. How can you pick this one? This book I read not very long. So I have my own little quiet book club on my Instagram, which I love to do, and this was a part of my book club. And this was, when I read this book,

I was in floods of tears because it's so honest. Like she is so honest. I'd actually started listening to the podcast. Should I delete this? I listened to her podcast long before I read the book. And on the podcast, you mentioned that she was writing a book and she's really nervous about it. And this is somebody who has struggled with her body image

and with anorexia her whole life. And so it was really interesting because as somebody who works in, it's something that in terms of body image, It's something that I didn't really thought about I mean I've always, as I don't know why, I felt like it's normal for me as a woman to always worry about what I look like and if I'd, you know, struggling to fit into a dress,

you know, that thing where you kind of work really hard to fit into a dress, I've been there, I've done all of that. I've had children, my body's changed, my body weight fluctuates all the time. But it was that moment when I read it and realized that it affected me very differently after being in the public eye and being in this industry where I can sit down to

an interview and they'll ask me, how do you stay so slim? When I'm not feeling particularly slim that week. And I'm like, I don't really know what they're talking about. Why are they saying that? Are they mocking me? So it all gets in your head. And I read that at such a great time because it's something that I really needed to read at that point. I think just sometimes you pick up, you ever pick up a book and you think, this is what I needed to read right now. That was the book I needed to read to realize that I am, when I'm dead, like it's not going to matter that I had a thigh gap, which I never had. I've never had, and I don't care to have too much hard work for me. But it's not going to matter. You know, that's not going to matter. That's not why my children are

going to remember me. That's not why, you know, the people that I love are going to remember. They're going to remember me for my body weight. Like, it's ridiculous. So it was a book that I had to read in that moment. And as soon as I'd read it, my neighbor text me and said, could I please borrow that book? Because I saw it. And I think I really need to read this book right now. And it obviously something that really struck a chord with her. And then I made my boys read it. And then I made my daughter read it. And then my husband doesn't read, so I had to read some of it back to him.

But I made my kids read it. It was that good. I had to make my kids read it. I don't think there's a single person who doesn't have a relationship of some sort with food and their body. And this book tries to dismantle diet culture, not necessarily in society at large, but in the individual. Yeah. What was your relationship with food like? growing up because it's your world really.

It's interesting you say because now my, I grew up, I'm one of six kids, so I'm from a big family and I have a four sisters, I'm one of four sisters and two brothers and everybody in my family is like very thin, very thin. Like my sister had her fourth child and I kid you not, I saw a six-pack six days later. I was like, how has that happened? I had my daughter 13 years ago and I'm still pretending that I'm carrying baby weight. You know, like, it's ridiculous. I'm like, how has that happened? How has she done that?

But that's just the way she is. That's how she, that's her genetics and that's how she's, that's her, that's who she is. And there's no changing that. And I think growing up in the culture that I did, there was a lot of comparison. There was a lot of kind of, oh, she's a little bit bigger. And there was no, there's no filter. You know, I grew up in a culture where there was no, you know, oh, well, you know, they didn't save your feelings or they didn't.

worry about how you might feel. It's just like, have you put on a bit away? You better not eat that chicken then. Let's get that away from you. And it was very much like that. It was like, just take it, just take it away from you. And so I think that definitely didn't help with my relationship with food. So often I would eat, I would eat so it looked like I wasn't eating too much. And anything that I ate after was stuff that would eat on my own, not in front of everyone. So I didn't have aunties who were coming around and saying, oh, you put on a bit wait, let's get that away, or like, isn't it your, are you getting married soon? You better stop eating that.

Things like that. You know, I'm just kind of used to hearing things like that. And they don't mean it in a bad way, but. But shut up. Every single, yeah, every single word, it infiltrates. And the way you're spoken to will start to become the way you speak to yourself. Exactly, exactly, because that's exactly what happened to me, because that's kind of how I ended up talking to myself internally.

You know, I'd say to myself, or maybe you shouldn't eat that. Or maybe, maybe because you're in a crowd of people and they're watching, you eat or you're all eating together, they're looking at what you're eating. But the reality is they're not. Nobody cares what you're eating. It's just you and that becomes your internal dialogue and that is something that I've always carried with me. And then you kind of, then I stepped into this industry and then you have people saying, you know, like how do you stay so slim and what do you do to balance what you do with work where you're eating lots of cake but do you do you exercise? I mean, I can tell you now they're not asking Jamie Oliver and James Martin and Paul

Hollywood. They're not asking them those questions. You know, I get asked things like, so where are your children? Who's looking after your children? I've just tied them to a table and left them to fend for themselves. Do you know what I mean? So I would, I get asked those ridiculous questions as a woman that men wouldn't get asked. So working in this industry has definitely, definitely unearthed some demons that I've tried very hard to kind of dig very, very deep. So in those moments where I kind of think, oh, maybe I shouldn't be, or I get asked, so a lot of calories, I'm like, yeah, but it's delicious, you know? Because I'm trying to... It needs them. Exactly. And I think I'm trying to, because I have children, and because I also have lots of young people who follow me and who have followed my

journey, who are now teenagers themselves, I'm really aware of how I speak to myself, because that's essentially how I'm going, they're going to hear me speak, and that's how they're going to speak themselves. So yeah, it's something that I've, like, it's been really important for me to kind of teach my children and teach my daughter, especially after the sort of decade of working in this industry, that food is to be loved and food is to be enjoyed, and that is how I see it. You know, food is an enjoyable thing. And every time I'm kind of, I question my weight or how I feel or how I look, I kind of also remember the joy that it brings me and, you know, how much I get to do that and share that with other people. And I'm trying so hard not to create that internal

dialogue that I was forced to create within myself growing up and now working in this industry. I'm trying so hard to kind of eradicate that from our home with my children because they love food but they love other things. They love cycling and they love going out and for us it's just living. It's just about living. That's all it is. Well from finding the joy and seeking the happiness and food to just finding the joy in general. Your second book, Shelfy book is Joy Rider by Angela Scanlan. From the mind of the beloved television presenter comes this timely book on capitalizing on gratitude

as a way to lead a very joyful life. Scanlon lifts the curtain off the lofty and unattainable ideas of how life should be lived and opts instead to glorify the small acts of kindness and vulnerabilities in our everyday lives. When did you read this? I read this.

I clearly really needed lifting. Not so long after, when did I read this? I could just give you a really short answer. not soon after that not soon after Alex Lights sometimes we gravitate towards the books that we need sometimes we don't even know that we need them you could read a book and it's just the wrong time

for you it doesn't hit it doesn't hit at all and you come back to it at time in your life when you really needed to hear those words yeah and I think I think I'd read that not soon after reading Alex weeks if weeks are between Alex Light's book and this book and the reason why I read it was because I bought her jewelry is I know so she

Angela has this beautiful company called Freckle and she does the most beautiful gold jewelry and pearls and my daughter got into pearls and so I was like oh well I really want to buy her something from here and then I'd realize that she'd written this book and I was like I've got to read that

because if I was like if her jewelry gives me this much joy I'm guessing the book's going to be the same could be more you know could be more right exactly and I was like and I picked up the book and it was the cover for me I don't know about you but when I'm reading a book the cover has to speak to me as well like it's really important for the cover

I mean they say don't judge the book buy it but but do judge buy it sometimes I don't know what it is sometimes I do love the cover it's the cover that draws me in I'm like oh look at that the way it feels I've got this thing about Nigel Slater's Christmas book I know a whole other genre

but like I go touch his book because it's fabric and I just go past it and I'll just I don't know why I think it's a holistic visceral experience reading a book. And obviously, you know, so many of us are reading on different devices, and that's great because you can carry loads of books on holiday. But personally, the feeling of it, the opening of it. Also, I'm reading it on the tube, which I often am, knowing that I'm,

quite proud about this book that I'm getting into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It says something about me. It speaks to me and it's speaking for me. And I think it all, it's all part of the experience. It is. I think reading books is, it's the smell, you know, the smell of the pages. Whenever I open a new book, my daughter, the first thing she does is, just don't open it without me. Want to sniff it? She was a sniff it. She goes, I want to take all of the book sniff first, so she will take the sniff first. Because it runs out.

Yeah, because it does run out. It does feel like it runs out. But for me, it was the cover of the book initially. And I was like, this makes me, I mean, as it was sat on my shelf, I was like, this makes me feel really happy because it's such a beautiful, bright, colorful book. And like you said, it was something that I think I needed in that time. Like I was, I just happened to be going through a process, perhaps in my own head where I needed to read a book like that. And what I found with Angela's writing was, it's amazing, you can read hundreds of books and every voice is completely different. You really do get her voice as an author.

But what you also get is her wit. Like she's so witty, like so sharp. And I follow her on Instagram. And she's just like quick. Yeah, she's brilliant. She's so quick. And that's what I think I love about, and what I loved about the book was it was really succinct short chapters. and sometimes that's what you want.

Sometimes you want that chapter. You want to start a chapter and you want to end the chapter but you want to feel and you want it to happen quickly because what I don't like doing is when it's not ending and I'm like, okay,

and I'm looking to see when that chapter ends and I hate that because I'm like, do I like this book or do I not like this book? Because right now it feels like I don't like it. But with her, the chapters are so short and sharp and they give you a message at the end of it and what I found with the book was I found it really lovely to read it

a chapter a day. So that's how I read it. It gives me a little bit of something every day and it was just enough to get me through a couple of weeks. It was really lovely. It just gives you a little message, a little something to think about. And that's what I found with the book.

It gave me a little bit of something to think about. And it was actually the one book that I read my daughter, so I read it to my daughter, although I don't read to them at night. And I said, can I read these chapters to you? And she said, are they short? And I said, yeah, they're short. And so I read the chapters to her. And she loved it and she loved it and she took something away from it.

So it was nice for us to have something to talk about at the end of it. Those types of nuggets, they do need to be digestible. Yeah. You want to be able to carry them around with you. You want to be able to remember them and sometimes they need to be short for that to be the case. Yeah. Do you integrate gratitude into your daily routine? It's a huge part of what this book is about.

Have you found that helpful, especially in your career? I think when I was reading Angela's book, it's like being on a ride. It's up and down and you do feel like. You do feel quite connected to each of the chapters. And I think for me, as a Muslim woman, you know, as somebody with faith, I try to practice gratitude every single day. It's so easy to wake up every day and think, do you know what? Today's just going to be a bad day.

It's so easy to think that this is not going to be. You know, it's so easy to wake up and feel negative. But as somebody with faith, you know, as a Muslim, I wake up every morning and I pray and I remind myself that I'm here today. and that's really important for me to wake up and remember that. And so, yeah, for me, practicing gratitude is such a big part of my life. And to add, to be able to have that extra layer, to be able to read a book that has nothing to do with my religion,

like completely separate, and to be able to add that to feeling grateful, to be able to be present in the moment and to be happy with everything that you have around you is such a wonderful feeling, because it's just, it's like an added bonus. this is a book that discusses vulnerability as well and being comfortable with vulnerability.

And you've spoken candidly in the past, in your documentaries, in interviews about your experiences with anxiety, with panic attacks and PTSD as well. What was your experience of writing about being vulnerable? That's probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do because once you, because I mean, I never planned to be in this industry. I never planned to do this job.

And so I remember coming off Bakeoff and I was asked whether I wanted to do certain things. I was like, well, I don't know if I want to do any of this. And then it ended up being my career. And with being in the public eye, there's this, you almost kind of give up a little bit of yourself by being in the public eye. And it's about taking a little bit of that back.

And so at the very beginning, it was really tough and I really struggled with it. And I remember when I wrote in my book, Finding My Voice, I wrote about lots of really personal things that affected me, but I know affect lots of people that come from the background that I grew up in. And I wrote it in and I wrote it out and I wrote it out. And I said to my husband, I don't know why I'm doing this. Like, who am I writing this for? And he said, well, maybe perhaps ask yourself that question, who are you writing this for? Because you could very easily not tell anyone any of this.

You could not talk about any of this at all and you get through life. But why are you being vulnerable? And I suppose he made me kind of step back and ask that question, like why is it important to be vulnerable? Well, for me, you know, it's a very personal thing. To be able to expose a part of myself

that I could have kept hidden, it's really important because I know that there are people out there who, like me, suffer with PTSD, that who have suffered sexual abuse, who have anxiety, who, you know, So there are all of these things that they have suffered where they feel completely isolated and alone.

And with all of those things, come shame. And so I wanted to be rid of the shame. And to be vulnerable is saying that I'm not ashamed and I'm not doing anything wrong. And it comes with criticism. Don't get me wrong. It comes with criticism like you would not believe. And you get, and it's really hard to listen to.

But in those moments, I remind myself of why I did it. And I did it because there are people out there who feel alone, just like I felt alone in the past. And it's important to remember that we are in it together. As much as they just feel like words, it's so easy just to say we're in this together, but we are. And that's why it's really important.

When someone tells you that something you've said has resonated with them or they've been through something similar and now they know they're not alone like you just said, and that shame they can relate. to, but they can also override because they found strength. How does that make you feel? Scary. It's really scary that feeling because it's a responsibility.

And, you know, I came into this world and I've got three beautiful children. And I've always been really honest and open about the responsibility I feel to my children because I need them to see. The version that they see at home is the version they see on camera, on podcasts. you know, like that's me. There's no, there's nothing, nothing changes. But for me, that, when people share that vulnerability and tell me that they feel exactly how I, I feel really, I feel really scared of the responsibility because it is huge, it is huge, but I take it on because I know that, you know, as somebody who has struggled, and struggles even to this day with all of

the things that make me who I am, but also working in an industry that doesn't have space for me, You know, I know that I have to create that space to be there so that they feel like they can be in that space that I've created. So I think, yeah, it really scares me. It really scares me because my responsibilities span further than my children. And that's scary, but I take on that responsibility because it is something that someone has to do. And getting a real sense of the tone of the voice you use to speak to yourself.

And it's a very beautiful one, and it's a very uplifting one. Let's talk about your third book today, which is People Person by Candace Carty Williams. This is such a brilliant book. Oh my goodness. The author of the Women's Prize, long-listed Queenie, returns with her second novel, People Person, which follows Dimple Pennington, who is fumbling away through her 30s, when she is suddenly thrust back into the lives of her five distant half-siblings and their absent father. This book is a hilarious and hopeful look at family dynamics and the ways we come together.

after loss. I mean, what a ride. Oh my goodness. It's such a good book. I read, I read Queenie, just two baths. I had two baths. That's two baths. You can guess how long that took me to read. The kids are like, that's a lot of long baths, Mom. But I was just in there. It was amazing, but then people person, as soon as, because the thing is, it's the author. Sometimes the book is about, it is often, once you know, like I know, I know, when Candice writes, a book, I will be there. Right at the front of the line, buying that book. It's an event. Yeah. Do you know, like when, so once you, for me now,

Candice is, she's a part of my vocabulary now. Like, if she writes a book, I'm there. Front of the line, I am going to be buying that book. And I'll be sharing that book. I'm a big shareer of books. It's like, who wants to read this book? Take it, have it. But once I've read Queenie, I was like, when is she writing the next one? When she she write the other people person was incredible. She has this amazing way of letting you into her life, which is what I love about reading, which is what I love about storytelling, is when people allow you into their lives.

And especially because when Candice writes, she writes what she knows, and they're the best books. I believe the best books are the ones that, when authors write about the things that they know, the things that are the closest to them. And she writes about her people. She writes about how she grew up.

She writes about her community. And she doesn't write, it's not, she doesn't write it in a, like, there's no, it's not half-hearted, you know, like she fully goes in. And what I love about it is that like every single character stands out. You don't know who's the main character, no. And they're all so believable. Right. Her father, for me, above all people person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was interesting. Like, but because, but there are loads of people who will, who, there are people who will read that story and, and, and, and see that father. and be like, oh, I know someone like him.

Like, I know someone like that. But what I love about her character, right, what I love about her writing is that each character is written so well with its own distinct voice that you don't actually know who the main character is anymore. Like, everyone has a really strong, loud voice, a strong narrative, a strong story. That's what I love about her books. And it allows me to be a part of a world that I'm not a part of. Like, I don't, like, some of the language that's used.

is very specific. And so I would, there's bits of patois in there, I think. And so like, I don't, I don't recognize it. So I might be Googling, but I quite like that I'm allowed into that world. And I really enjoy that. But what I really also enjoyed about, what I enjoyed about, what I enjoyed about reading that book was the similarities to my culture and that culture that she writes about.

So it's lovely to be able to kind of link the two in some way. it's a book that really does highlight the complexities of belonging and the complexities of love and the family that you are given and the family that you choose for yourself. In your memoir you chronicle the experience of all the different roles,

that multifaceted nature of being that you represent, daughter, sister, Erna, Cook, and a person it follows Dimple who feels lonely, she feels unsure of herself, she's navigating all of that. What has this book taught you about living a multifaceted life.

Do you feel the people that love you in a way to find you, all these different parts of you? They can. This is what is, it's really interesting because it really made me step back and think about

because when I wrote my book, I spoke about all the different roles and how they made me who I am. And in the end, the reality, for me, I think, in the end, after having written my book and when you read books like Candice's book,

Peopleperson, you read books like that where a lot of, lot of the story is about the relationships that you have. You can spend your whole life building your own character based on everyone around you, but something that I always tell my daughter, having lived a life where everybody around you and all the relationships that you have around you make you who you are, you almost always forget that you're the main character in your story. Like literally nobody else, just you. Your hair,

you. You are the main character. And that is something that I forgot. And even after I'd written my book and talked about all of these different relationships and these different roles that I play, and even having read books like Peopleperson, where you kind of get into the complexities of being in different relationships and what they all mean and how they all fit with each other, in the end, you're the main character. And that's something that I'm having to teach myself now, at 38, I'm having to teach myself that you are the main character and you've spent your whole life

thinking about the side characters, not really thinking about you and you're the main character in your story. And that's something that I'm trying so hard to teach my children is that you can have lots of wonderful relationships and they will be a part of who you are, but you have to always remember who's

at the center of that story. It's you. And you're the main character of your story. and you have to always remember that in order to be the best version of yourself. So, yeah, like, there's lots. It gave me lots to think about. Knowing that you need to come back to yourself, at the end of every day,

there's only going to be you who can be there for you that you can be sure of is so important. There's a real freedom and a real peace in that. Yeah. I mean, this book is about family. Yeah. You're from a big family yourself, one of six siblings, like you said just before.

So I want to talk just briefly about your documentary, Nadia's family favourites, which highlights comfort meals that are meant to be shared. I'm from a big Nigerian family, and it really does centre around food. The dinner table is where our family happens. FYI, I'm one of 67 grandkids. 67!

Yeah. Do you know them all? No. No. No, I mean, I probably don't know the last 15. Fine. Still a lot. It's still good going.

I mean, I know that every single one by name, apart from the last maybe 12, 15, maybe. I don't know. 67. No one can remember 67. Come on now. Wow, your grandparents. And that's just my dad's side.

Yeah. It did well. My great-grandfather had several wives, which I think is why our family is so big. And everyone sort of lives on a compound. So even if you're not technically directly related, you're sort of all part of the same. It's a village, isn't it?

Yeah. If a kid was over, everyone would be a village. Yeah. And it takes a village. What are your favorite dishes to bring your family together? Oh, so we are. So asthma, it's changed quite a lot actually because when they were younger, I was very much

kind of like, you've got to try lots of different cuisines. I wanted them to, I wanted them to not, I didn't want them to be fussy. I was dreading, like, I was dreading having fussy kids. I was really dreaded that. I was like, oh, please don't be fussy. Please just eat what you're given. My second was fussy.

And like now he is eating me out of house and home. Oh, great. When was the change? How did it change? Do you know what? There was a point when he was sort of 10, 11, up to 10, 11 where he just would not. Like, he knew,

he liked and I would give him what everybody else was eating and I learned that rather than trying to push him to eat what he doesn't want to eat I should just leave him to it and then something happened at 12 and it was like a whole other child and he was and it hasn't stopped I have a nearly 17 year old and a 16 year old and I kid you not like I think I'm going to have to put locks on the fridge I didn't want to be that parent but I think I'm going to have to because at midnight, I'm like, what are you doing both of you? Oh, just making noodles. My brothers do the same. I've got three brothers. They're all like six foot seven. And they come home and it's just straight away. Open the fridge. My poor mum. It's just everything. Yeah.

It's gone straight away. Like gone. Like food shop, it's unreal. Like they don't want to help me with anything in the house. But when the food shop comes, they're like, shall we help? I'm like, how much of that is going to end up in your bedroom? I want to know. But, you know, we, so much of our food, so much of our life is centered around food. I grew up in a house where my dad ran restaurants. Mom's an amazing cook. And just to picture what our weekends were like growing up as children, my dad would call us on the landline when we used to have landlines,

and he would say, clear the dining table. This happened every three, four months. He'd say, clear the dining table. We know what he's doing. He's got, we used to have a butcher at the bottom of the road. He'd have a sheep on his back. Not joking. And he would come and like slap this thing on the table.

Sorry, vegans. Like he would sat this thing on the table and he would chop it up and he would dig a massive hole in the garden. And then he would get a pot big enough to fit three, four of us in. And then he would get all of the bits and we'd start on the onions. And he would get and then he would cook. And we'd cook that curry all weekend. Sorry, I was wondering where it was going when he said he'd get a pot to fit three or four of us in. I'm just giving you like

how big it was like we were little right and all four of us could get in and it was just we would play in it we would put water in it and we would bathe in them it was just fun it was just lots of fun I love that he would butcher the sheep there and then did you learn to be able to butcher an animal

yes yes my dad's my granddad was a farmer and you know we grew up every summer we'd go back to Bangladesh and we would be on the farm and we would be there If you wanted to eat chicken, my granddad would say, yeah, you've got to catch it first. We would spend the afternoon catching it, like really back-to-basics type stuff. And that is something that is very much a part of our house now. You know, we don't have, we don't have to, we don't get them to catch their chicken before they eat it.

But we do a lot of outdoor cooking. But, you know, for us, so much of our food, our family time is centered around food. And I've become my dad. Like, I don't have a hole in the ground, but I do. occasionally, like, put the fire on, and I'm like, who wants to come and cook and eat and, like, just spend the day eating? And that's what we'll do. And we do a lot of that, especially when the weather's as lovely as this.

I would say that if you are thinking of putting a lock on the fridge, you could just instead adopt that mantra, catch the chicken then. If you want to eat, you've got to catch the chicken. Yeah, that's also, I could do that. And they would catch them, though. Yeah, they would. They would actually catch them. I'm not some of them.

Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes.

If you're looking to learn more this year, then we recommend the How-To Academy podcast. a bi-weekly show from London's home of big thinking. They invite the world's most exciting leaders, scholars and entrepreneurs to share their ideas for transforming our lives and the world. Past episodes include Bill Clinton and James Patterson on creative partnerships, Isabella Gende and Gloria Steinem on feminism, the late Madeline Albright on diplomacy,

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Nadia, your fourth book-shelphi book is The Island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. Oh, there was like an incredible gasp in the time. Yes. A lot of love for that book here. Shortlisted for the Women's Prize for Fiction in 2022, so just last year, this is an intricately woven novel charting the lives of two star-cross lovers in war-torn 1970s Cyprus, told from the unique and heartbreaking perspective of a fig tree. and it's unusual connection to a young girl from London. This is an illuminating story of love, loss,

and the ways in which we can reconnect with our roots. Why did this speak to you? So I read this book when I was on holiday. So I take one book, and that's like my time is dedicated to that book. And I said, I was really selfish this holiday. It was my last birthday. So my birthday is on Christmas Day. and nothing's open on Christmas Day

and if it is, it's all Christmas menu that's really expensive that I have to sit through which I don't want to and so nothing's open and so I said to my husband, no I'm going to go on holiday and take my book and I don't want anyone to disturb me I just want to enjoy my book, I want to be I'm so glad I picked that book

and I thought, like I really had to think before going on holiday and think about what book I was going to read because I didn't want to take a book that I started and thought, oh, I don't know if I'm sure about it. A lot rides on that one selection, doesn't it? It does, and it's the first few pages. And so I read the first few pages. I thought, oh, no, this is it, this is it.

This is the one I'm going to take. And I took the book with me, and I said to the kids, I'm going to read this book, but I don't want anyone. Like, I'm in this book now, guys. So they're like, that's fine. You're like, you guys cannot disturb me, okay? I'm really here to enjoy my birthday and to enjoy this book. And it's really interesting because the way the book is written

is unlike anything I've ever read. before in my life because the narrator in so there's a chapter where you you you you hit you read the story and what's happening in the story but there's also the perspective of the fig tree and that was really interesting for me because like never ever like what could a fig tree could talk what would it say you know like that's why I asked me I was like if a tree could talk what would it say and I just loved that perspective. And it only dawned on me when I read the second chapter

and I went to Fig Tree. And then I went to the fourth chapter and it was Fig Tree again. And I was like, have they made a mistake here? Oh, you're going to keep coming back to this? Yeah. I was like, have they made some sort of a mistake here because this Figry chapter keeps repeating itself?

And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, the fig tree's talking. And that's that moment. You know, in a book, when you get that moment, where you're like, oh, I get what's happening here. That's it. Like that's that magic moment. It's a bit like baking when you're like, that's what it's supposed to look like.

You know, that moment, that was that moment for me. And I loved that about the book. I thought it was so beautifully, beautifully written. You cannot, she, you can't redo that. Like, you cannot, once magic like that has happened in a book, can you ever redo that? And I don't think you can. And I think I loved the fact that we were looking at the family

from the fig tree's perspective. It was just such a beautiful way to do it. and it's such a beautiful way to tell the story. And, like, I have an obsession with fig trees. Like, I love a fig tree. I don't have a fig tree. I didn't have a fig tree. Till I read that book, then I raved about it, and I told my sister-in-law,

and then two days later, there was a fig tree at my door. You got a fig tree. Oh, your sister-in-law. She got me a fig tree. And she'd read the book as well. And then she said, it was just the most beautiful thing. It just came up, it was on my doorstep. And then she said, I can't remember what the note was, but it was so beautiful.

and she just made me cry. I was at the doorstep crying with this fig tree. And it took me right back. And I was like maybe. And she said, she wrote in her note, this fig tree, no doubt this fig tree will have beautiful stories to tell about your family. And I was like, oh my gosh, she's going to kill me. Like just the most.

And like I now, there's just something about, now when I look out into my front garden and I see this little fig tree still growing, like still very small. And I'm like, there's something about the stories. that we tell. And yeah, it was just such a beautiful. I mean, I was jumping off at my seat telling that story. It's just such a beautiful book.

It feels like that fig tree's roots are going to weave their way around your family. It came from your sister-in-law. It's now in your garden. Every day your family is growing around the fig tree as it grows. It will have stories to tell. Yeah, I think that's what. I think that is exactly, I think that was the intention of the author. I think the intention was to write that fig tree into that story

in such a way that you are so captured by it, that there is no denying that that fig tree talks. And like it just, yeah, so like for me now, whenever I look at that fig tree in my front garden, I always think of the fig tree that talks. So for anyone who hasn't read that book, my goodness, go get it right now. I feel like quite a few people here have. I have, I think the impression.

For anyone who hasn't, I absolutely recommend. I guess in a similar way to the stories that this fig tree, is able to encapsulate and then put back out into the world. You know, we share stories in all different ways in our families. In my family and I know lots of others, we pass down recipes. It's how those stories that they transcend. They move on to the next generation. Your upcoming cookbook is Nadia's Simple Spices.

It hones in on eight core spices that rule your kitchen, but are also really integral to the rich history of Southeast Asian cooking. Why is it so important for you to share, to share recipes? I grew up in a house where my grandma, so my grandma was an amazing, she's still around, can't see very well anymore. I mean like just the set, like when I walk in, she knows from my footsteps that it's me. Like that's kind of, that's kind of cool. But she's also that person who can say whatever she like.

She's at that age now. Like she can say whatever she wants. But my grandma, she can't read and write. So my grandma doesn't have an education. Didn't have an education. Married at the age of 11 or 12. You know, she had eight children, four of which survived. Four didn't.

And she grew up in a society where, you know, she had to have boys. You have to have a boy. And she didn't have a boy till much later. And she was ostracized for it. And so she was this, you know, I grew up around a very, I mean, as leaders of the pack go, I grew up with some of the best. You know, like my grandma was amazing. And she could never, she would cook, but she could never tell me how much of what was going in.

And she couldn't read, she couldn't read. So she kind of went off, you know, what things looked like and what things smelt like. Maybe that's why her senses are so amazing now. But she didn't have recipes. She didn't have recipes to give me. And, you know, when I went, for me, it was really obvious when I went into the bake-off tent. And everybody was in the bake-off tent, and they had recipes from their grandmas that they had on scraps of paper. paper and I didn't have any of that and I felt quite sad about that I was like oh I don't I don't have any recipes like so I didn't have any recipes that were written down by my grandma and my mom is of the of the she's of a school of thought where if you can't watch and learn I'm not writing it down for you no not going to happen so she my mom never wrote anything down for us and I am so lucky that I get to work now in an I now work in an industry where I get to write my own cookbooks so my kids now have

have books that they can take books that they will walk through life and say, oh, this is my mum's book and these are my mum's recipes. But it was really important for me to write this book because this is all about the eight spices that my family have used from my grandma, probably my grandma before her. These are the eight spices that they've used and you can do every single recipe in there, breakfast, lunch, dinner, dessert, using those eight spices. and it's a combination of so many different wonderful things that you can put together. And it was so important to share that with people.

And you'll have to read it to find out what those eight spices are. From family and food being so intertwined in those stories carrying on through those recipes. We continue to talk about family with your fifth book, Shelby book. However, it is How to Kill Your Family. Yes. By Bella Mackey. This is a deadly, funny, revenge novel, which follows Grace Bernard, who, after learning of her father's indifference to a dying

mother's wishes, makes light work of a killing spree, where each of a victim's is a member of her own family. But things take a turn when she's imprisoned for a murder she did not commit. Written by one of this year's Women's Prize for Fiction Judges, this is a scathing, hilarious take on family, vengeance and class. Why did you enjoy it so much? The most enjoyable part about this book was when I was going on holiday with my family and I was reading it at the airport and we're just sat there the plane's delayed and I'm just sat there reading it and I'm just like the looks you get reading that book. Yeah. And I think Bella's got that kind of, the author has got that kind of sense of humor.

I think she's got a bit of, I follow her on Instagram as well. I think she's got a bit of a dark sense of humor. And I think when she wrote the book and she did that cover and the words are how to kill your family and you're sat at an airport with your family, I think she knew. I think she knew very well. She knew. Yeah, she knew that she was going to, people were going to read that book, and that was going to be the thing that made people look.

So that was clever. I thought that was really, really smart. But it is a really, really, completely different to all the other books that I've read. Like, this is a completely, like, it's the complete opposite. Here we are talking about roots and families and, and the different relationships that we have. And here we are, you know, a book about killing your family. I find it really fun. Like, it's, I can't.

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading this book. Like, it was that part of you that can't think it, but can. Because you're reading you, you're like, go on, kill him. Go on, get him. Go on, get him. Because there's some of us, right? Like, you know, there's people in your family that you don't want to kill, but, you know, you know, like some mild torture wouldn't go amiss.

Yeah. You know? Like, just, I don't know. I just, that, I didn't, I unlocked a different, it unlocked a different part of me. It's allowing you to feel something, to think something that you thought you couldn't. you couldn't, but you know what? All the thoughts are out there.

I think we all think it. We all think it. But Bella was smart enough to write it. And then she wrote it in a way that made you feel like it was okay. You're like, this is good. And you're with her on the journey as she's killing them one by one. Like one by one, the plot, like the plan and how she gets them there and how she eventually does it. And you're like, yes, who's next?

Like, it gets like, it's quite a... I wonder if she's going to write a second one. I wonder. Watch this space. She'll be surely about tomorrow night. Can ask her? You can ask her, yeah. She's really, really deft at finding those very creative, unique angles

into this story to take you along on this ride like you've just described. What is your creative process like? You're coming out with new angles all the time for your work. And it is, I guess, an infinitely inspiring playing fields. we're working in the food industry and especially with a mind like mine that never stops like I don't ever stop I'm always thinking about what I can do next and like what I can

and it could be something as similar not like any, not even big projects like not even like what am I going to do in five years I don't even think that far ahead it's more like there's this new ingredient like what can I do with that like what would be really interesting how could I do that? How could I make that really?

You know even if it's dinner like even if it's something simple as making dinner for the kids you know, like, it's, I'm always feeling like, oh, how can I make this a little bit different? How can I make this a little bit more fun? And I've always kind of enjoyed that aspect of being in the kitchen and cooking. But I also really love the writing aspect. I love that, you know, I get to write about when it comes to recipes. You know, I love to write about the chapter headings and things like that.

I love all of those little details about writing recipes. But it's, the possibilities are endless, you know. And you don't have to just got, like, even when I'm, on holiday I'm working because I'm like, I put something in my mouth and like, oh, what's that? And my husband, like, stop. Stop, you're not working right now. And then I like, I've got like, my notes on my phone and I quickly put something. He goes, you're not supposed to be working, but I can't help it. I'm like, but it's so much fun. I love trying to work out what things are and like trying new cuisine. So it's an endless possibility. So I'm forever. Like I may never

stop working, which isn't a bad thing because I kind of love doing this. This idea that everything can be this really exciting, creative endeavor, like, what am I going to have for dinner tonight? We're on an adventure here. What a great way to live. What a great way to be. You know what? It's, I, as much as I kind of, I always mock my teenagers because they are miserable. But they're 17 and 16 and they're meant to be. That's absolutely fine. But some, you know, when I'm really enthusiastic about dinner, like I told you, I'm like a puppy. Like, when they, when they come home, like, hello! And then I'll go and give them a kiss. I'm like, I want to kiss on their lips, kiss on their lips right now.

And then they will give me a kiss and then I get really excited about dinner. And I'm like, so I've made this and I've made this. And those days when I'm just a bit down or I'm a little bit off or maybe just busy or in my thoughts or in my head, like we all can be, they kind of look at me and they're like, Mom, what's the matter? Like, are you all right? Like, is everything okay? But it's always really funny because that never affects dinner. Because then they'll have dinner and they're like, oh, she's fine. She's fine.

She's absolutely fine. So, yeah, I love that every dinner can be, like, magical and wonderful. Yeah, and it's a bit of an adventure. And that's why they'll never leave home. Oh, no, what have I done? What have I done? You've talked, Nadia, about struggling with restrictions. Like, you're on this adventure, and it's exciting, and all this stuff is happening around you.

But, you know, growing up, you've said in your memoir there were restrictions in terms of going to university, becoming a midwife, this career that you have carved out. when you've been carving your path, how have you stayed true to yourself? How have you known what to do next? That's a really big loaded question. And it's my final one. Okay, that's why.

I talk about it in my book quite a lot about how restricted I felt in life. And I think if I look at my own teenagers now, they may look back and think, oh God, we were quite restricted as well. But, you know, I grew up in a culture where women definitely did not stand at the front. Women were very much at the back.

And we had a role, we had a job. And people, you know, my role was to become a wife and to be a mom, which I did. But that was only because I wasn't able to, even though I'd gotten, two weeks away from university, my mom's like, absolutely no way. You leave, you're not coming back. Like, I'll change the locks,

but you're not going to university. Because I was the first girl in my family to get into university. So she was afraid and, you know, at the time, it was really hard to hear because I'd worked really hard to get to university. So, yeah, I grew up with a lot of restrictions. I grew up with lots of barriers, lots of doors shut in my face, lots of nose. And so I think if anything, what that did was it made me stronger in what I'm doing now today. It made me stronger as a wife. It's made me stronger as a mother.

And it's made me stronger as a woman. And I truly do believe that I had to really hate being a woman to love being one today. And that's why I'm here today. That's what inspires me to keep going every single day is that I get to be in a industry that was created for essentially, I say created. I work now, I now work forward-facing in an industry that is essentially filled with middle-aged Caucasian men who are doing their thing. fantastic, but there's no space for someone like me. And here I am, I've turned up five foot one, you know, like, hey, so I can cook.

And it's taken me a lot of strength and courage to create this space for myself and to keep this space for myself. Because often I get told that this isn't a space for me. This isn't the industry that I should be in. And that is evident in the battles that I have to fight every single day. And so in those moments when I kind of feel. like giving up, I tell myself, the one thing that the affirmation that I have raised my children on is elbows out. Create space for you so you can create space for others. And in those moments when

it's really, really difficult, pull those elbows out and show yourself, make yourself bigger and create that space for you. And that's what I tell myself every single day. I stand here and people may look at it and look, she's really successful. It hasn't come without sacrifice and it hasn't come without difficulty. But I know there are girls like me who are watching me and watching my every move, and they're watching that space that I've created. And one day when I'm not here, that space will be there for them. And that's the most important thing. Well, Nadia, I cannot thank you enough for carving that space for being here with us today.

I lied when I said, that was my final question. I just have to ask you, if you did have to pick one of those five books that you brought today as a favourite, which would it be and why? Do you know what? I think if I was going to pick one that really took Alex Lights, Alex Light's book, I think for me, that as to, if anyone who's never read, who needs a book like that, read it,

and it will really make you realize that we are, we are so much more than our bodies. So, yeah, give that a read, I think. Well, Nadia, thank you so much for joining me and thank you so much for our live audience. I'm Vic Ho. You have been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast

live from Bedford Square. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for joining us. Have an amazing day. Thank you so much. Amazing, thank you.