Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep15: Bookshelfie: London Hughes

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Comedian London Hughes joins Vick from LA to discuss her new memoir, how she tried to climb into a TV set aged five and why she’s found greater success in America than the UK. London is a stand up comedian, TV writer,  presenter and now a rising star in Hollywood. You may have seen her as a guest on numerous TV panel shows, or in her Netflix special To Catch a Dick, which was based on her critically acclaimed Edinburgh show of the same name.  London’s refreshingly outspoken attitude to her sexuality paired with her confidence, exuberance and wit have earned her the respect of American comedy A-Listers Kevin Hart and Dave Chapelle. But it hasn’t been an easy journey.  In her hilarious memoir, Living my Best Life, Hun, which has just been published,  London catalogues the bullying she experienced throughout education and the many setbacks she’s faced on her journey to stardom as a fearless black female voice in an overwhelmingly white male industry.   London’s book choices are: ** The Bed and Breakfast Star by Jacqueline Wilson **  Angus, Thongs and Full-Frontal Snogging by Louise Rennison ** Ugly by Constance Briscoe ** The Last Black Unicorn by Tiffany Haddish ** You are a Badass by Jen Sincero Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

I remember just thinking, this is what I want. Like, I just resonated with comedy, and my dad would always help me, point me in that direction because he was such a big comedy fan. And so was my granddad. And yeah, those two, my mum's work ethic, from coming from Jamaica, and my dad's love of comedy combined made the monster.

That is London Hughes. With thanks to Bayley's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices, and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope, and I'm your host for Season 6 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction, to share the five books by women that have shaped them.

Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. Today, I am thrilled to welcome London Hughes to the podcast, London, is a stand-up comedian, a TV writer, presenter, and a rising star of Hollywood. You may have seen her as a guest on so many TV panel shows or in her Netflix special to Catch a Dick, which is based on her critically acclaimed Edinburgh show of the same name.

London's refreshingly outspoken attitude to her sexuality, paired with her confidence, her exuberance and her wit, have under the respect of American comedy A-lister's, Kevin Hart and Dave Chappelle. But it hasn't been an easy journey. In her hilarious memoir, Living My Best Life, Hun, which has just been published, London catalogs the bullying she experienced throughout education and the many setbacks she faced on her journey to stardom

as a fearless, black, female voice in an overwhelmingly white male industry. I feel so blessed to have been on this journey a little bit here and there with you, London. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, that's probably the best intro to me and my book that I've ever heard. I'm like thinking mental noise. I should say that. I should say that. Say it all.

You can take it. I'm going to say it all. That was that I felt odd. That made me feel all warm inside. Thanks. Hi, Vic. Happy to see it. You know what though.

We've not seen each other for a couple of years. The world change. It was 2020, beginning of 2020. The whole world changed in between. But I've really enjoyed watching you rise, watching you go from strength to strength. Live your best life as well. State side in between. So thank you. Thank you for making the time because I know it's night time here at the point of recording and it's probably the morning where you are.

It's 11 a.m. LA time, baby. Good morning. London. You're in the future. You're in the future, babe. Good for you. I'll tell you. The day's being great. It's been a lovely day. I'm happy to you. I'm looking forward to the day myself. You know what? We have heard so many conversations over the years about the industry about your work. But you know what? We've not talked about books together. So this is a first. Yeah, we've never actually even said books in a sentence once we spoke to each other.

Never said the word books. It's the first time I'm saying books to you. So this is good. This is a step forward in our friendship. So many times. It is. Well, I would love to know, because I wouldn't know, actually, are you a big reader? Are you a bookworm?

Yeah, I used to be. But life got in the way. So when I was a kid, I was obsession with those book trail read things over the summer holidays. So in the summer holidays, they were like, if you read eight books, you'll get this sticker and all the, I was that girl. So I was reading all the books in the summer holidays. I was collecting all the stickers, winning all the book awards. I was in a library gang, okay?

A library gang. You were in the library gang. Yes. So we would hang out. Don't mess with them. We'd hang out Fort and Heath Library. Don't mess. Fort and Heath Croydon.

Library there. I don't know if it's still there. I hope it is. And we would hang out and we would speed read books. Amazing. It's competition. Yes. And then I would also do weird things like, we loved Roaldal, and Roaldal's got a book called SEO Trot, which is taught us spelled backwards. So we decided to read that book backwards. That's the level. That's the level of like book nerd that I was. I was reading SEO Trot backwards for fun. I just loved, I loved it. I love books. So yes.

It's the dedication for me. I think sometimes the word nerd, it can be a little negative, but reclaim that because I think it's. very cool and I love. I, the most important thing to me is getting as many kids as possible reading because there is so much to be gained from that for the whole of your life. And as your life did, you know, move on, have you remained such a massive fan of books? No. No, okay. Do you know what?

It's crazy. So I used to just only read fiction books as a kid and now as an adult, I only read memoirs. Like I don't have the, it's hard because social media. has changed my brain. I can't just sit down and take everything in. And I'll have to be doing several things at once. I'm checking Twitter, Instagram, doing this, doing that. So when I have a book that can sit down and take all my attention,

it has to be a true story. It has to be a memoir, someone's life journey that I can learn from. So, yeah, as I got older, I kind of stopped reading fiction books. But I like memoirs. And I love a self-help book. Oh, love a self-help. Oh, I love it. You know, I was looking through the choices that you've brought today for your book, Shelfy Books.

I think that you might be the guest who's chosen the most nonfiction of all the people I've interviewed so far. Why do you love reading nonfiction, especially by women? It just helps me in life so much just to know that people are going through what I'm going through. And fiction looks amazing to escape life, but my imagination's already fine. I used to write myself into my own favourite TV shows. I used to write fan fiction. I used to, like, if I wanted to, like, imagine an escaper place. I wouldn't read a book.

I'd write that book myself. Is that weird? I don't know. But that's how I am. I don't think so. Manifest it. Yeah, I manifest it. But when I want to learn and, like, most of the people I respect, you find out that they

went through so much. And even kind of the things that you went through too and you can relate to. And so I'm just obsessed with learning about people and learning about my industry. And so, yeah, any self-help book or memoir from anyone in. my field or like women that are just killing it, badass women, I'm there. I'm subscribed. I'm reading it all in a day. I'm obsessed. And these women are taking their own story and putting it on the page in their own words, which is so important. I read a quote actually. Okay. Oh God. You said my brain is wired differently. So everything is entertainment,

even my own life. I'm such a sad person that even when I journal, I'm writing a journal like someone else is reading it. So you're making it entertaining for its audience. It's almost like, you know, you fast forward all these years and you've got your own book that's just come out. Do you think that if you look back then as a kid, even then you knew the importance of your words having an impact on whoever's going to read them, whoever's going to find out about you through them? 100%. Now looking back on it, this book, the book, Living My Best Life on, I wrote it in two months. It fell out. of me. And I think it fell out of me because I've been preparing for it my whole life.

And yeah, when I look back to do research for the book, I had all my journals. I went in my diaries and they were kind of already cute little paragraphs that I could just put in the book because I'd already written it like it was a book. Like I'd be talking about a boy. I remember like in university, I had like a love diary and it was like London's love diary. It was like potential suitors. And it was like, dear diary, today I went on a date with Jerome, but I feel like he's not man enough for me, when will he learn? And I'm just like, who are you talking to? Like, this is for you. But the way I'm writing it is like, I'm carrying sex in the city and everyone's going to read it. It's crazy. But yeah, I think that has helped me write this book because

I found it really fun and easy to write this book. And I think that's, you're right, it's because I've been writing books my whole life. Yeah, your whole life. Well, I believe everyone's got a story to tell and you, you know, more than any one. And it seems looking through the books that you've chosen that you see a little bit of yourself in a lot of these stories too. Yeah. So we'll start with your first book, Shelfy book, which is Jacqueline Wilson's The Bed and Breakfast Star.

First published in 1994, this funny, this truthful book from the beloved Jacqueline Wilson tells the story of Elsa, who tells a lot of jokes and is determined to be a big star one day. When her family are forced to move from their home into a bed and breakfast, Elsa finds it harder to make everyone laugh. But despite these setbacks, she is still determined to make it. I said that you see a little bit of yourself

in each of these stories. What bit of London Hughes is on the page here? Oh, God. You know what? It's so hard for me to choose one Jackly Wilson book because there's so many Jackie Wilson books that I just saw myself in the character. She's so good at writing like sassy, funny,

but insecure young female characters. A lot of her characters would be getting being bullied, but in their mind, they were living all these crazy lives and so amazing. But in reality, like, they were bullied or they weren't the smartest or the cutest or the cutest, et cetera. And I feel like I resonate with that. I resonated with that when I was a kid because I got bullied a lot. So Ben and Breakfast Star, literally when I read it, I was obsessed with the book. It was so funny. I love the character Elsa. But then when I grew up, I realized I am literally her. So at the time of reading it, I think I was just like a,

a girl that got bullied in school, but was like a joker in her family and to her friends. And I just wanted the world to see me how I saw me at the time. And Elsa's the same. Elsa's just like a, she's just always joking her way out of her situation and trying to make her family laugh and anyone who would listen and she's loud and I was loud. And then when I grew up, I realized that I was even more like Elsa because she lived in a bed and breakfast and my mom bought one. My mom bought a hotel.

Okay, okay. My mom bought a hotel in Brighton when I was 14. It was more like a, it was like a step above a bed and breakfast. Like it was like a bougie bed and breakfast. Had like 16 rooms and it was, it was very, very cute. And I lived in a hotel from the age of 14. And so I reread the book again whilst I was living in the hotel. And I was like, this is me.

This is my life. Oh my God. Like I'm a person who wants to. I wasn't a comedian at that time. But I was a person. I was always telling jokes that lived in a hotel. And I just saw myself in Elsa and I'm just like, this is crazy. Jacqueline Wilson, I don't know how she knew me, but she knew me.

She's been watching you. That is a magical parallel. I know. I met Jacqueline and I didn't, I wanted to tell her like, babes, I don't know if you understand. Like Elsa is me, but I couldn't. I was at the Baptist. I was trying to be classy. But yeah, Jacqueline Wilson is one of my favorite people.

She's amazing. Incest with her. There is honestly no greater feeling when you're a kid. kid than seeing yourself represented on the pages of the book. It gives you this confidence and this validation that your story is worth telling. You know, that you have this place and you have this voice in the world. And it sounds like you found your voice quite young. In spite of everything that was going on around you, in spite of, as you said, being bullied,

he said he wanted to be a star from a young age. Why was that? How did that manifest itself? It's crazy because my mum said when, this is in the book as well, when I was five years old, she found me trying to get on TV whilst climbing round the back of it. She told me trying to like, I'd managed to unscrew one of the screws

and I was like trying to open the back up to television. And like, that just shows, that's me at five. That just shows like how determined I was. I don't know what possessed me to think that like, this is what I was born to do. But from a very young age, I knew that this is what I was meant to do. And it was very clear to me.

And it was confusing to me that nobody else could see it but me. So like, I grew up in Fortin Heathcrowdon and no one really important, he's Quiridon has big dreams outside of South London. And so none of my friends were like me. I would say stuff like, yeah, I want to be, I'm going to move to America. I'm going to be on TV. I'm going to do all this. I'm going to have a convertible.

I'm going to have my own TV show. And they'd be like, really? Are you sure? And their dreams would be like, I just want to be a mom or I just want to have a house. and a husband. And I was never like that. I was like, I want to star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

I told my mom, I'm not having, I told apparently he has 12. I told her at 12, or maybe younger than that, that I don't want any kids until I have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and a wax work in Madam Two Sores.

That was where these are goals for me. These were things I just saw as like pivotal life points. I didn't care about getting married, didn't care about having babies. I wanted a star. I wanted to be on TV. and yeah, I don't know where it came from because my family very normal.

My mum and dad are just like the most normal, hardworking, kind, generous, non-famous. I don't know, my brothers and sisters, normal. But me, star. I came out different. And what was your household like? I know you were born, as you said, in Thornton Heath, in Croyd in South East London,

to Jamaican, Cuban and Puerto Rican. Spanish-Nigerian parents. Oh, yeah, literally. With a house full of siblings as well. What was the atmosphere in your life? What was the support like from everyone around you? It's funny because they, I think they, it's not that they didn't support me.

I think they just like, they just, just kind of like, okay, London's being London. It's just like, they wouldn't tell me, no, I can't achieve things. But they wouldn't, like, go out of their way to help me do. things. I remember when I told my mom dad, I won an agent and I was like 11 because, and I saw that Britney Spears had made it

at 12 on the Mickey Mouse Club. And I remember being like, I'm 11 and a half and I've not made it, mom. Time's running out. Yeah, what are you doing for my career? Like, and they would laugh and think I was silly. But then if I was like, hey, mom, I want to do dance classes. They would, pay for my dance classes. So they would do that. But they wouldn't tell me no, but they wouldn't actively be like, okay, we're going to

take you to audition. Like I had to do all of that myself. And my mom's born in Jamaica. She moved to England when she was nine. And so her mind is you go to England. Like if you're an immigrant and you move to a country like England, you're told you go there to work hard. You get your education, you work hard, you have a good life.

And so my mom's dream for me wasn't same. It was just to go to university. And I did. I became the first person in my family on my mom's side to go to university. And I remember just her planning, my life and her being lucky, go to university, then you find a nice man, then you get married, then you have kids before you're 25. And I was like, no, I want to audition for Big Brother and I want to move to America and I want to be famous. It was just very different. And then my dad,

he's such a huge comedy fan. So he's the reason I'm a comedian because he showed me Richard prior clips from a very young age. He got me, I was listening to Round the Horn, Radio 4 comedies. I was the only girl I knew that was listening to radio for age 10, 9. Like, it was crazy. But I was obsessed with, like, British comedies. I was watching Dad's Army and, uh, are you being served? And I remember just like keeping up appearances. I remember just thinking, this is why I want.

Like, I just resonated with comedy and my dad would always help me, point me in that direction because he was such a big comedy fan. And so was my granddad. And yeah, those two, my mum's work ethic from coming from Jamaica and my dad's love of comedy combined made the monster that is London Hughes. So yeah. Inspiration, it comes from everywhere. Yeah, it's all.

And that transition from Croydon to Brighton to go and live in a hotel that your mum would thought when you were 14 years old. How did that shape you? How did that affect you, that transition? That was crazy because this is going to sound weird, but like, I'm sure you can relate to this actually.

Like, you don't think, when you're a kid, you don't think about your culture in Britain as my, like I saw myself as a British person. I saw myself as a black girl. I went to predominantly black school. And it was a high achieving all girls school. But yeah, I'm pretty sure it was like mainly black and Asian. I feel like the white girls were the minority.

Because I really don't remember many white girls in my class. But my best friend in the whole school was a white girl. And we would listen to like Avrilavine and grunge music. and like we did German studies together and we talked to each other in German for fun. Like we were major nerds. And I didn't see anything wrong with it. And then I had some girls in my school

that to them, I guess I wasn't black enough because culturally I wasn't like listening to UK grime and rap music and Jamaica music like Sean Paul. And I was like very much like an alternative black girl to them. And so I found that crazy. But then when I moved to Brighton, an all white neighborhood and I went to an all white school

I lent into my blackness even more like blackness in quotation mark, even more because then I was like, oh yeah, I want to, I want to be a rapper and I bought Disney Raskill's album that was the first album I ever bought and I would like rap

and he had like these song lyrics and he talks about living from coming from the end which is essentially the ghetto in quotation marks he has a line where he says don't tell me about royal because Queen Elizabeth doesn't know me. So how can she control me when I live street and she lives me? And I would wrap that over and over again.

And my mum would be like, you don't live streets? I live in a hotel in Brighton. Street, your pavement, darling. What are you talking about? And I realised that moving out of South London to Brighton, I lent more into what I thought being a black girl from South London was so much so than when I was a black girl living. in South London.

It was definitely a culture shift. It was crazy. It was needed. It's good to have different points of view and different cultures aspects in your life. But yeah, it was crazy time. Crazy time. Yeah, the perspective shifts so much.

It's funny when you're at school how those tribes are so defined, so often by music. And actually a book in which this is very much a theme is your second book, Sheffey book today, which is Louise Renaissance's Angus Thongs and Full Frontist Snogging. This is the first book

in The Confessions of Georgia Nicholson's series, which was adapted to the film as well, Angus Thongs and Perfect Snogging in 2008, written in diary format, which you are, of course, no stranger to as a journalist, as a one who journals. It follows the story of Georgia, a typical British teenage girl who is constantly humiliated by her family, obsessed with her looks and boys, and is always trying to stop her cat from attacking the other neighbourhood animals. Tell us about this book, why did you choose it?

It's just such a warm hug. It's just, it's just, anytime. I think of that book and I think of my life at the time of getting that book and how that book made me feel. It's a smile with a warm hug. My friend Katie was obsessed with Louise Wrenerton. She read all the books and then I saw her reading it and she was like, it's such a good book. You should read it. So I read it. I think I read it all in a day and I was just like, I love Georgia. I am her and I was living in a seaside town at the time. And so I could relate to the feeling of like when I moved to Brighton, there was so.

many cute Brighton boys that I wanted to notice me. And it's different than London. There's like this because there's nothing to do. Everybody knows each other. Everybody hangs out at the pier and there's all the shopping centre. I've going to say mall. I've been in America too long. All the shopping centre and like everybody has, everybody knows each other. There's that guy in town. He's the hottest guy in town and everything that Georgia went through with the win. Again, she wasn't the popular one and she was getting essentially bullied and she wanted to impress the popular girls and she wanted to impress the hot boy. And I just was like, yeah, that's how I see myself.

And it was just so relatable. So relatable. And I guess it's an attention of Jacqueline Wilson. So it went from, it's like the growth in books that I'm doing right now. Because literally I was, yeah, 10 reading the bed and breakfast star. And then I'm like 14, 15 reading this. And the movie, please, anyone who can, if you watch the movie version of this book, it literally, watching the movie version, I literally remember being like,

It has all the fills the book gave me. And yeah, you can do that as well. Read the book and watch the movie because it's perfect. It was my life. It was my dream seaside life. So yeah, I love that book. I remember us all like passing it around at school. Yeah.

It was valuable that book. Everyone wanted to get their hands on it. Everyone was talking about it. The cover boats, you will laugh your knickers off. And it was like, it was funny. It was, it was comedic writing. Yeah, it was our version of like Adrian Moll. Like, you know, it was definitely our Adrian Moll.

And I love that. I was obsessed with Louise Vennyson is a legend. Those books bring back memories, man. Just happy times. Oh. Yeah. It sounded like you had a youth that was, that was full of laughter. Like you had a household that had, you know, it was full of jokers.

And your dad introduced. you to comedy on the TV. When did you realize you had a talent for comedy, though? Oh, God. When did I realize it? That is a very good question. I think I realized it when I was like 18. I think at the time, I probably knew that I'm quite big-headed.

I loved, like, as a kid, I just thought I was the best thing since sliced bread anyway. But I think I was like, I'm amazing, I'm amazing. And other people were like, no, you're not. And so I was like, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm not. And then when it came to... They'll say that, but come on. I know.

I know, but this is the thing. Like, in England, England's so terrible for dreamers, which is why I'm like, this is why I'm hoping the British girlies really taking this book. I mean, because we are so used to like, there's like the American dream, but there's no such thing as the British dream. Like, our motto is keep calm and carry on. We say things like, don't quit, don't give up your day job. She's the amount of people that said to me my whole life, like, oh, you know, stick to what you know, don't give up your day, your job, blah, blah, blah.

And if I listen to them, I want to be sitting here talking to you in my penthouse in Los Angeles right now. But I am. And essentially, I just feel like that culture starts from a young age. And I think even kids, if you're a type of kid that just does something different to the other kids, when I was in school, the kids would be like, oh, why are you doing that for? just fit in and be like everybody else and comply and be a carbon copy is something that Britain likes to, I don't know, man, they just have it as a, the heading like, this is what you should be

as a typical British person. And it's just like, no. And so for me, in my mind, I was like, I'm this amazing person. But then in reality, it was like, well, no one treats me like an amazing person. Maybe I'm not. Then when I turned 18, I was a music video girl. I was a girl that looked pretty in the back of the UK rap music. videos and while I was on set, all the other girls in the videos were just like in the

breaks. They would just be like sitting, chatting, flirting with the rappers. And I would be making the rappers laugh and they would be laughing. I would be saying some stupid stuff and just being wacky and funny and they were like head back cracking up. And I'd be thinking, I'm making rappers. And rappers are really hard because they live a serious life. They're difficult. They're po-faced at times. Yes. Difficult to make a UK rapper laugh. And so, very stoic men. And I was making these young boys laugh. And I realized that there was something about me.

Because like after the shoots, all the models would be around me. The rappers would be, like, they'd be in a circle. And I'd be holding court, making them laugh. And I was like, maybe this is a thing that I have. Like, maybe this isn't all in my head. Maybe I could, maybe I can be a, I didn't think I could be a comedian. But it was like, maybe I have a talent for this, you know? So, yeah, that's when.

It's something that we all get beaten down with, isn't it? Stay in your lane. Don't put your head above the parapet. And in many instances, even, I remember my parents saying, well, we just want to manage your expectations when I was ambitious about something. They're trying to protect me in so many ways. But you're right. It's not in our nature to say, go on, you can do it.

You can do anything. Literally. Moving to America, I realized how bad it was. Because in America, everyone's like, yeah, go for it. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, you want to do that? Yes, do it. Yeah, that's queen.

Like, that's how it is here? And it's crazy because I was like, how do I live in England for 30 years and managed to achieve what I achieved? Because, yeah, it's just not in our nature to be like, yeah, quit your job. Go to it. Like, you know, follow your dream.

You'll put your dreams. And it doesn't help when you're watching the shows that your dad showed you. And a lot of the comedians that you see will not have looked like you. They will not have looked like you. have been black, they will not have been women. No.

How did you broach the notion of entering a world that didn't look like one that you might belong in? I didn't. I didn't think I could be a comedian because I thought a comedian was a white man. There was no part, like, before I started comedy, I was a girl trying to audition for Big Brother. I audition for every single thing. The plan was to get on Big Brother and then make it from there, like be funny on the show and

and then make it from there. And like any little reality show, there was another, I could dance. I did a lot of dancing. So I auditioned for the show called Dance X and we had to dance and be the next hot gossip. I don't know if you guys remember who Hot Gossip is, but Arlene Phillips had a dance troupe and I was trying to, I was trying to do everything. I would turn up to the recording of TV shows. Alan Carr had a show called Alan Carr's Celebrity Ding Dong and I was a stand-in on that show and I did it for free. And then I got to watch the show in the audience. And sometimes the camera will cut to me. And every time it did, I'd make sure I was laughing a lot so I could get more camera time. Like, these are little things I was trying to do to get on TV. And I didn't know

that comedy could get me on TV because the comedians that saw on TV was Lee Evans. They were, they were white guys just being silly, really, men behaving badly. I just feel like, yeah, it wasn't until I saw Lenny Henry. Lenny Henry had a show called Lenny Hemory's Life and Pieces and Julie Asheret was a character on that show. And I remember seeing her on the show for the first time and she was so funny. And because she existed, I knew it was possible. Up until then, I don't think I thought it was possible for me to like be funny and on TV

as a black British woman because all the black women I saw on TV were American. So there were like, Aunt Viv in the Fresh Prince of Bel-Ellet. They were black women on TV every day being funny. That didn't exist. All the shows from Moisha to my wife and kids, sister, sister, they're all black women from America being funny. When I saw Miss Jocelyn and Junie Asheret on TV as a kid, I think I was in secondary school,

I was like, oh, I could be on TV being funny. I still didn't think I could be a stand-up, but at least I knew I could be on TV. And then, yeah, I guess eventually when I fell into stand-up comedy, they had no choice but to put me on TV. but it was a long way to go. I think Britain still has a long way to go with that. But yeah, I'm grateful for all my white male inspirations

and all the shows. Yeah, for the push. Also, I'm a person that sees things and goes, what's missing? So, like, the fact that I didn't see anyone like me on TV kind of made me go, well, then that's even more reason for me to do this, you know? If I saw a bunch of black girls on TV all the time, I think I probably want to join them.

I'd be inspired. But this became a personal mission. And then I had this thing that I said to myself and it's, I'm trying to be the young black girl I never saw on TV growing up. And so that was my thing. And it still is my thing. I'm still trying to be that girl. And you never know which young black girl will see you.

And in turn, that path has been paved for them. Yeah. We talked about the lessons that we can learn from the books that we read, from the TV that we watch, the obstacles that are set out on those pages. is that we can learn from how we might overcome if they occur for us. And it sort of brings us on to the memoirs and the nonfiction books that you brought to the table today. Your third book, Shelfy book, is Constance Frisco's Ugly. This best-selling memoir details Constance's harrowing account of the systematic abuse she suffered throughout her childhood at the hands of her mother,

punched for persistent bedwetting, beaten with a stick and told she was too ugly frisk-led photo. Despite this traumatic start in life, she went on to become a barrister and one of Britain's first black female court recorders. It feels like quite a different tone to take. Yes, yes. It's an incredibly traumatic story, but what was it that resonated with you about this book?

Before I read that book, the books I was reading about women were happy. It was just like, look at the past two, right? Like Elsa in Ben and Breakfast Star in Georgia, in Angus Fongs. They're both happy, you know, happy families. They have like personal issues with themselves, like insecurities and stuff and lifestyle and stuff.

But essentially their parents weren't abusing them. And I remember enjoying those books. And then I don't know who got me onto ugly, but everyone was reading it at one point. And I remember just being like, what's this book? And then because it's a black girl, I'm like, oh, okay, this book about a black woman. Yeah.

And it was so horrible. And I just remember it punching me in the throat. I just was so used to these happy white girl stories. And then this black girl story comes. It's a real story. And it's so horrible. And sadly, I could see myself in the story, not because my parents, I want to stress.

I have the best parents in the world. They were not abusive. But I at the time definitely remember seeing myself as ugly. Like, being a young black girl in London, in that time, if you were darker skins, you were just considered non-attractive. And so I'm not dark skin, the darkest of skins.

I'm not the lightest of skins, but I looked at my features. I looked at my features. I had big lips. I had a big nose. I'm brown-skinned. I just remember feeling like, I'm ugly.

I didn't think I was an attractive kid. I didn't think that guys would find me attractive. Girls would bully me. I used to have severe acne and I had mild eczema. And it was just not cute. I was not cute. I didn't think I was cute. And I remember reading the book and hearing her constant thoughts on how,

of how she felt about herself and the things her mom would say to her, how ugly she is. And I kind of resonated with that. My mom and dad would tell me I'm the most beautiful person in the world. It doesn't matter. Inside, I still felt like this ugly girl that no, like I wasn't popular. Guys didn't want to date me. I was just this.

And so as sad as the book was, I saw myself in her. and that was also sad and then she overcame it and I was like okay so you can overcome this feeling of feeling like you're not worthy you can come out the other side and you can quell the naysayers

and kill it life and so it was inspirational but it was so sad I remember crying reading it I remember how to stop reading it at some points because I was like I just this isn't great back then we weren't really talking about mental health but I'm sure the book was affecting my mental health because I just

was hate reading it. Like I didn't like to read it, but I couldn't put it down. It was, yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. I think it's a really important book for black, British women to read. And for any woman to read, to be honest,

it's just, yeah, it's a lot. It's harrowing stuff. We've talked about some of the obstacles and adversity and challenges that you've come across in your life, in your career. And your memoir, Living My Best Life, Hunt,

it has a lot of personal stories and feelings in it. And I'm always so interested with comedians to find out, does comedy make it easier to talk about these things? Or like, conversely, does it make the expectation that you've got to make it funny, make it harder to tell your truth authentically? No, it's easier. Oh my God. Yeah. Um, yeah. I naturally mine comedy out of negative situations. So it's my go-to. It's become my default. Like, all my friends and family will tell you, like, if something bad is going, like, I'll be complaining about something,

like, really angry and my friends will laugh in my face. And I'm like, guys, I'm angry. Wasn't supposed to be funny. Yeah, you're just so funny when you're angry. Like, so, like, that is my go-to. Like, being funny in anger and pain is just who I am as a person. So it's actually so much easier to write the book and make it funny. I didn't want this to be a funny, funny book. I wanted it to be a real book. So there was times in the book where I'm talking about like deep bullying, like, serious bullying. And I was like trying to make it funny. And I was like, no, London, you can't make this funny because at the time, you wasn't laughing. Like, this really hurt you. So you kind of have to pull back on the funny for this bit. Like you have to give them the real London.

And that was even worse. Being vulnerable in the book was the hardest part. I could talk about all the dating, all the boys, all of that stuff till the cows come home. But the, the, the, the, the, real stuff that really hurt me. Yeah, that was hard. That was hard big. Do you ever turn to comedy when things are hard? If something has to happen to you now, do you laugh it off?

Are you more inclined to laugh it off than maybe face something? Yes, I am. At first, it will take me a while. It will hit me. I'll be sad. And then, yeah, within a couple hours, I'll be making jokes about it.

I feel like there's always comedy in a situation. Once you get over it and you're in a healthy space to talk about it. Why not laugh? We're all going to die, babe. So remind you to enjoy it. Honestly, I feel this with every single thing. I would say, whenever I come onto the radio, every single day,

there's always a story to tell. I could have had the worst day ever. At least it's good comedy for the radio. Exactly. Whenever I've had breakups in the past, it's awful. My heart is broken. I feel like I'm going to die. But I've got something to say.

Exactly. I mean, you've got to mind it. Like, you've felt something. You've lived through something. Like, yeah. I always say it's just like great. This book is so funny because there's certain parts in the book where at the time that it was happening,

I remember trying to figure, like to get over it, say a situation has occurred in the book and I'm sad. I remember at that moment thinking, yeah, but one day I'm going to be writing about this in my memoir and then like I was doing it. And I was like, oh my God, this is the moment. It was very freaky because there's about four moments in the book where I literally physically remember

where I was, how I felt, and I remember thinking, it's okay, there's going to be great chapter for your memoir one day. And then it is. And yeah, so thanks, life, for throwing me a lot of curveballs, I guess. Baileys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

Baileys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. If you're looking to learn more this year, then we recommend the How To Academy podcast, a biweekly show from London's home of big thinking. They invite the world's most exciting leaders,

scholars and entrepreneurs to share their ideas for transforming our lives and the world. Past episodes include Bill Clinton and James Patterson on creative partnerships, Isabel Agenbe and Gloria Steinem on feminism, the late Madeleine Orbright on diplomacy, Noam Chomsky on the politics of the climate crisis, Melinda Gates on philanthropy, Marianna Masucoato on the consulting industry, Lise Doucette on the future of Afghanistan, and much more.

If you want to know how Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Ressa stands up to dictators, how comic book pioneer Alan Moore boosts his imagination, or how Chelsea Manning fights for a more transparent society, you'll find out with How To Academy. They have episodes featuring a few of our own favorite women authors, including Kate Moss, Maggio Farrell, Anne Patchett and Claire Fuller. The How-To Academy podcast is your one-stop show to broaden your thinking and hear from the artists and experts shaping our world. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's talk about the fourth book that you have brought with you today, which is The Last Black Unicorn by Tiffany Haddish. This is comedian and actor Tiffany's moving essay series about how jokes and humor helped her.

overcome the issues that she's experienced growing up in the American foster care system and go on to become a household name. Now, I'm sensing a bit of a theme here. You had The Bed and Breakfast Star. We talked about using comedy to find your way through difficult moments in life. When did she first stepped on the scene, I remember just being obsessed with her. I was living in England.

At the time, I think I'd just written a show called Superstars, just nobody's realized it. And the show was all about the fact that there was, in my life, there's only been one black female comedian, that's a household name, that everybody loved and appreciated at one point, and that's Whoopi Goldberg. And I was saying to myself, in this show,

which I took to the Edinburgh Festival in 2017, I remember right in the show and thinking, like, Whoopi Goldberg was so long ago. Why hasn't anyone, like, popped up and even just, like, made a stir in America or Britain in that time? There's been no black female comics that really have like stepped on the scene and made a big bang since Whoopi

and Whoopi, Sister Act came out in like 993. So I remember thinking like, who's next? And then I was like, well, I'm next. London, Who's is next? But then Tiffany Hadish popped up and I was like, oh, finally there's someone. And she was so funny and energetic and full of life. And I was like, oh, I'm obsessed.

And I adored her. I thought she was hilarious. She reminded me of me. My energy on stage is very hard. and so was hers. And I hadn't seen a female do like high energy stand up like that ever, did it. And when I saw Tiffany do it, I was okay, cool.

Like she's just like me. I love this woman. And then I came to LA for meetings for the first time. And I had this like big meeting with a big Hollywood exec. And after the meeting, she was like, do you know who you remind me of? And I was like, who? And she was like, Tiffany Haddish. And I was like, oh, really?

Oh. And she was like, have you read her book? And I was like, no. She had a book. She's like, yeah, yeah, you should read it. And then went to her shelf and gave me the book and was like, read this book. It would change your life. And I read it and it was just so, first of all, I was so in awe of all the stuff she's been through.

The girl has a story to tell. And the book is written in a way, which I think is genius. It's written colloquially. There's spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, everything. It's written like she's talking to you. It's like she's sitting next to you. Like she's your bestie. It was great.

And just knowing her story, we're not alike. Like she's gone through things I can't even imagine, the foster care system, how she was treated on the way up, living in her car. She's had a brutal life, but she's turned it all around and she is a star. And for me, it was just nice knowing that at the beginning of my American journey, I had this book that I could look to for inspiration. And now me and Tiffany had a show good friends.

And I'm just like, what is my life? I remember when someone compared me to you and I died and now she's my babes and we do stand up together and it's crazy. So yeah, it was, it's just an important book for again, Dreamers. So it's so funny and she's so honest and her life is so, you never know what you're going to get. Like the things that she's done and the things that she likes to do at one point she was hosting bar mitzvah parties. Like she's just, she's just, she's just insane. She's an insane character and it's a great read, really good book. Did her book actually influence your own, your own writing? No, I tried to not let that happen at all.

So when I was, I read her book, yeah, like 2018. And so when I was writing my book, I didn't read any books. She was like, I don't want to be influenced. So not. And I didn't want anyone to think like, I don't know. It was my first book and I didn't want my brain to feel like, oh, I should write it like this or do it like this. Because this is what Tiffany Hadish did. And this is what?

Tina Fayed, and this is what Mindy Kaling did. And I was just like, no, I'm not going to reread these books. I'm just going to do me. And so, yeah, I was not influenced by anyone but myself for this book happily. Also, may I add, I did not have a ghost writer. I wrote every page myself. The structure is my. Everything is my.

I did this. No ghost writer. My first book, I just have to clarify. I didn't know that you could have ghost writers and people asked me, did I have one? I was like, me? No. This is all. Husey baby.

It is so important to see people, comedians like Tiffany, absolutely smashing it. And in turn to see comedians like you absolutely smashing it on the scene in a predominantly white male. And if we're talking about the British comedy circuit, especially on TV, that representation, it means the world. It can change so much. I do feel, however, that it is relevant that she is American.

Yes. And, you know, your career has really taken off since you moved to the US. You've said what you've said about dreaming big, the American dream. But as a black woman, why do you think it is that there is a space for you on the TV there and not here?

Because, and as sad as it is, American entertainment industry is fueled by talent and money. and they see dollar signs, if you're talented, regardless of what you look like, you have an opportunity in America. And I think in England, they don't care if you're talented.

They just want what they want, which is usually white men. One of my favorite comedians when I was doing my thing in the UK, this is this girl called Gronia McGuire. She's a writer now. She's amazing. And she would say to me, she's white. She would say to me, look, in the UK, male comics, they get born from potential.

An exec will see a male comic. he might not be that good, but he has potential and he'll get his break. Female comics, they don't get their break until they have experience, which is why you don't see female comics really breaking onto the scene or being celebrated until they're like

in their 40s, 50s, 60s. And it's just like, I remember being 22 and I started stand up when I was 19. And there was no 22 year old women doing stand up on television, but there was 22 year old men talking and just doing all this talk. about their life saying the same thing.

And I was like, where are young women? And it's like, oh no, there's Dawn French. I'm like, Dawn French has been on TV my whole, like, what do you mean, Dawn French? Jennifer Saunders. Like, yes, they're legends, but like, where's the next genre? Like, what happened to us? And I just feel like the guys making the decisions

were white, young white men who liked to see other young white men. And yeah, there was no space for women. And I'm a black woman at that. And so they saw me as a niche. I was a diversity hire. I was a tick box. I wasn't seen as something that the British audience would want.

And I remember auditioning for eight out of ten cats and shows like that. And they, I would kill it. I would kill the audition process. But then they would say, oh, we just don't think our audience would get London. We love London. We just don't think our audience would get her.

And it's like... What do you mean by that? Exactly. But why? And then I go to America, a completely different country where if they said that, you could understand. I'm British.

Sometimes they can't even understand what's coming out of my mouth because my accent's too strong. If they said, you know, our audience wouldn't get London. I could really understand that. And they did it. They were like, we love London. Come on. Come on this show. Do this. Do that. And it's just like I was welcomed with open arms in a country

that's not my own. Because I was a woman and black and British. It was seen as a positive. Whereas in my own country, being a woman and black and British in British comedy is still seen and was seen at the time as a negative. And so I believe, and I know as a fact, that if I was a white guy and I hate to be like, you know, what was a word? But it's the truth. I saw all my white male friends. We all started out together and they all went off.

Like one by one, they would become famous. I'd see them on live at the Apollo and A-R-10 Cats and all these shows. and like my mom and dad would be like, how come they're on TV and you're not? And what can I say? I can't be like, oh, it's because I'm like, well, I deserve to be on TV just as much as they do. And for me, it was, I proved myself right when I went to America.

I'm like, imagine if I stayed in England and was told no all these times and really believed them and didn't go to America, I would have never know my full potential. And so I'm doing, I'm so loud. talk about it because I don't want it to happen again. I just hope that like Britain has seen what they've done to me, done with me. And hopefully for that reason, when they see young female talent with potential, they guide them and nurture them into being great comics instead of just waiting for them

to be successful and have experience. And then you'll see them on live at the Apollo when they're 50, you know? So yeah, the British company industry is a doozy. But it's all in my book. I explain it very well. That W leads us neatly and nicely onto our fifth book today that you've brought to the table, very appropriately titled You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero. The subtitle of this book actually is how to stop doubting your greatness and start living an awesome life. And it's a refreshingly entertaining selection of stories and advice and exercises to promote self-love, build confidence and make money as well.

Tell us what you love about this book. What did it do for you? It's the best book in the world. Best book in the world. Best book in the world. Not even exaggerating. Best book in the world. I remember where I was when I saw this book on the shelf.

I was living at my mum's house in Brighton. I was doing presenting kids TV, scrambled CITV, dressing up as a duck, entertaining the children of Britain. And inside, I knew that there was more to me. even dressing up as a doc every weekend. I knew that I had the talent, the work ethic, the smarts to become the person I am now. But I had faced so much rejection

in the British comedy industry that I was beginning to doubt myself and I found myself in a little bit of like a rut where I just, anytime I got inside about something, it would just not work out or I would go up for this and it wouldn't happen. minute, I just was starting. It's crazy because before then I didn't have any doubts. I was like, oh no, I'm going to be famous. I'm going to be a start. And then like, it just felt that like I was so

close but yet so far. And I was watching all my white male friends become famous and successful comedians in the UK. And it was just, I was just in this weird space. And I was in urban outfits as Christmas shopping. And I looked up and I was like, let me see what the self-help section is looking like, or the book section is a tiny book section. urban outfits and I looked up and I saw this bright yellow book and I judge a book by its cover. I'm a cover girl. Like if I don't like the cover, I ain't buying the book and the cover grabs me and it just, the words just like jumped out like how to stop doubting yourself and start living a great life. And I was like, I need this book and I read it. I devoured it in

maybe a couple hours, maybe I don't even know. Maybe an hour. I read it all. And then I started applying the things I learned in the book and my life changed. I don't know how it happened. I don't know what happened. But like I started being optimistic than I previously was. I started talking out loud saying what I wanted to do, manifesting things. I was, look, people are spiritual, people are religious. I don't even know what it is. But I do believe that the people in life that are like, I'm never going to achieve it. I'm never going to achieve it. We'll never achieve it. The ones that are like, hey, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. They're going to do it.

And so the book reminded me that I was in my own way and to stop doubting myself. And once that happened, things started happening. I got job opportunities. I moved out my mom's house. I was making more money I'd ever made. The book is amazing. I genuinely believed, like I have it with me now.

I take it with me everywhere I go. It's my good luck charm. It's my omen. Good omen. I have it. I'm looking at it. It's just, it's my favorite book of all time. You can dip.

to carry it around with you, like just whenever you need a little gem. Yeah, you just reminds you of, it reminds me of my own power. And that's why I carry the book around. And yeah, I feel like before that book, if I hadn't read that book, you wouldn't be too good to me right now in America. Because I was a very different person before I read that book, definitely. I was still hopeful and optimistic, but this book changed my mindset completely. Jensen Zero is a genius.

smashing it in the US that you feel like the mindset that you gain from reading this has played a part in the success as you had in your career. Massive part. Yeah. So I, before this book, I fell prey to the British way of thinking, which was just like, you know, like don't give up your day job. And I was presenting kids TV. And I was on, yeah, CITV scrambled. And, you know, I was making decent money and I was on television. But it's not what I wanted to do.

And the book basically told me that if you don't want to do it, with your job. And I remember just being like, okay, like, I could just quit. And I remember so we were on season five, sorry, series five of Scramble. And we got series six. And the producer was like, oh, London, we got series six. And I was like, I remember the book, I had a book with me. And the book basically told me that if this isn't what I want to do and if this isn't

where I see myself, then why am I doing it? So I just quit. I was like, nope. And they were like, wait, what are you talking about? I was like, I'm not doing series six. And they were like, you, what? And I was like, I'm just, I'm not. And I had nothing to fall back on, by the way.

Still living at my mum's house. Nothing, no jobs. But I just said, if I want this life change, I can't keep living the same life I was living. I have to take risks. And one of the risks will be quitting this job because this is like my safety blanket. And I quit.

And I had nothing else to fall back on. And I got Don't Hit the Players on ITV2, literally a month later. and so if I hadn't have quit this show you wouldn't have had the time to do it yeah you wouldn't have been able to do it and so I wouldn't even go up for the audition because I'd be working and so it was like

the book just gave me the nudge it was just like go for it not to give all my like you know like oh this book is the reason I'm successful no I'm the reason I'm successful but the book changed my thinking and once you change your mindset the possibilities are endless

so I want to thank Jensen Zero for changing how I thought about myself and my situation. Yeah, I don't think I'd be here talking to you without that book. I always say the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. You need to jump in, you know, fully to be able to embrace the opportunities. You said that this book was like a Bible to you. Yes. What is the one piece of advice from it that you're always sharing with your friends?

Love yourself. It's so simple. It's such a simple thing. And it's just that was like, love myself. No, really love yourself. Like, talk to you like you're your best friends. Be your biggest supporter. Invest in you. Spend your money on you. To support you. Like, don't reach out for the validation of others. Don't wait for other people to give you the validation to love yourself. Love yourself as is. And everything will be okay. And this,

the book, every chapter of the book ends with love yourself. Yeah. It's like drummed into you. So like literally something so simple we don't do especially as women, especially as British women. We are so hard on ourselves and each other. And I think, we're so discouraged from from loving assets. I remember in the playground, it was it was seen as an insult to say, oh my God, you love yourself. When actually that gets so instilled on your mind and that's not what it means. It's not that cockiness. It's being kind to yourself. The way that I would talk to myself is nothing like the things I would ever say to a friend. I would never say to a friend, you look ugly today. Can you believe the idea of saying that? And you'd say that to yourself

or you're stupid or you said the wrong thing in that situation. I would never say that to a friend. No. We don't talk highly enough to ourselves. We nurture ourselves. Literally, it's so important to tell yourself how lovely you are, how amazing you are, how kind you are, how deserving of love you are. And I think, again, being British, I think, think it's the weather as well. Like, I'm in a country that's just like, great, most of the time as well. You don't want to wake up in the morning, like, I love myself and it's raining. Like, I get it.

I get it. Like, if either day, I love myself when you're looking outside your pen out in Los Angeles, it's much easier. But essentially, yeah, it's very, it's very important for women, especially women that were often told, you know, to be quiet or to silence themselves or to not, like, live their best life and live loud. and the centre of attention and how dare you, oh, your attention seeking.

No, attention found me. I didn't need to seek it, okay? This is my life. And I think the book reminded me of that and so important. And I tell it to my friends, I say it to myself. There's a little thing that my friend told me to do

and I've been doing it, like every time you look in the mirror, regardless of what you see, like, say we have parts of our bodies we don't like, mine was my stomach, I used to hate my stomach. You look at in the mirror, look at your stomach, and no matter how you feel about, it, high five yourself in the mirror and smile. And just that, just telling your brain like,

this is okay. Like, it's not a bad thing. This, your, your, your bingo wings or whatever, your big nose, your big lips. They're not, they're good things. High five them. High five yourself. And so, yeah, I try and do that every day. I high five myself. I high five my friends. Yeah, I love myself. That is, that is good advice. Love yourself and high five yourself every single day. London, I do have to ask you one more question and that is if you could choose one book from your list as a favourite, which would it be and why? You are a badass by Jensen. I thought so. I thought so. Everyone buy this book. I cannot tell you how important this book is to British women, especially we need it the most with a worst on ourselves by the book. Best book ever.

And also to everyone listening, if you would like to read more nonfiction, we have a sister prize now, the women's prize for nonfiction, which is due to launch next year. So you can read more about that on our website. But for now, London, I cannot thank you enough for everything that you have done and are doing. For any, you know what, for any little British black girl who is writing in her diary and writing her journals to make people laugh

because she's imagining there's an audience out there. You help us know there is an audience out there. because there is because you're doing it. So thank you and thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you. Oh, you made me emotional. Thanks, Vic. I appreciate it.

Thanks for talking with me and this has been wonderful. It hurts it. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayley's and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.