Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep16: Bookshelfie: Geri Halliwell Horner

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Former Spice Girl Geri Halliwell Horner discusses the history of girl power, Anne Boleyn and why her family are her proudest achievement. Geri is an accomplished singer, writer, producer and actress who is widely recognised for her iconic place in British pop culture as an original member of the record breaking girl group The Spice Girls. As ‘Ginger Spice’ Geri played a formative role in the band as they became one of the biggest selling girl groups of all time, with nine UK No 1 singles and more than 100 million records sold worldwide. In her solo career, she recorded a number of albums that collectively sold 45 million copies worldwide.  She’s released two bestselling autobiographies and a children’s book that sold a quarter of a million copies in five months. She’s also been a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations and she has just published her first of a series of children’s books, Rosie Frost and the Falcon Queen.  Geri’s book choices are: ** The Story of Tracy Beaker by Jacqueline Wilson **  I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou ** Hamnet by Maggie O’ Farrell ** Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë ** The Six Wives of Henry VIII by Antonia Frazer Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. slash Toronto. I've always been inspired by, you know, the arts culturally. And I like connecting with people.

So, you know, I was always that believer of like, come on, let's stand together. Naively or not, I always felt there was an importance to what, you know, we're doing here. And I still do. With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world.

I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for season six of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. Today I am so, so happy to be done. joined by the one and only Jerry Halliwell Horner. Jerry is an accomplished singer, writer, producer and actress who is widely recognized for

iconic place in British pop culture as an original member of the record-breaking girl group, The Spice Girls. Of course. As Ginger Spice, Jerry played a formative role in the band as they became one of the biggest selling girl groups of all time, with nine UK number one singles and more than a hundred million records sold worldwide. In her solo career, she recorded a number of album. that collectively sold 45 million copies worldwide.

She's released two best-selling autobiographies and a children's book that sold a quarter of a million copies in five months. She's also been at Goodwill Ambassador for the United Nations and she has just published her first of a series of children's books, Rosie Frost and the Falcon Queen. Welcome to the podcast, Jerry. Hi. It is such a pleasure to have you here to chat about books. And I know you're an avid reader yourself.

Yeah, I love books. What sort of books do you gravitate towards? I mean, I'd read anything. Right. Fiction and nonfiction, but I would say fiction that transports you. That really takes you to other worlds. But I like it when you learn something along the way. Very motive books.

Yeah, I'll read anything. I like that attitude. I'll read anything. Yeah, why know? We were talking just before we started recording about how you've had. a few situations recently where you've either been judging or having to write a review for books and consuming when you're under a bit of a deadline or a bit of pressure, it's tricky.

It sort of changes your relationship with reading. Yeah, it's like anything. If you're doing it, if you're doing something just for yourself, whatever it is, you know, there's just a laugh between you and that, whatever it is. But when there's a third party involved and you'll have to consider and it just, I think it just becomes a little bit more mechanical, so to speak. Yeah, but I'm also mindful because if you review a someone's book, I know the blood, sweat and tears that goes into writing a novel. So I want to be like as kind and supportive as possible because I know it was the hardest thing I've ever done

one of the hardest. So it feels. Yeah, I know how it feels. So, yeah. And, and, and When you turned your hand to writing, how did that come about? How did it make you feel to put pen to paper? I've always loved writing. And I studied English literature before I was in the band. And so I was doing quite well at A levels. And so I always love the power of words. And then I came to a moment in my life.

I think it was early 30s. And I was like, I did this. It's called The Artist's Way. And I don't even know it. Yeah. It's featured on this podcast before. Yeah. It's a novel that's been brought to.

Yeah. And it makes you do a little series of exercises to unlock your own creativity. And after doing that, that's when I wrote my first series of books, Eugenia Lavender. And they were just, they were short books. you know, for like younger kids, they were like for six, seven year olds, but it was still creative, like a character that I felt

that was missing in that arena. And that was satisfying. And it, but it also, it was very mechanical the way you write it as well. You kind of know your beginning, middle and end, and it's short. And, but then years later, and life happens, right?

And, you know, everyone has ideas. And but I've always been a character-led person. and I was thinking, I'd really like to write a novel, you know, long novel, but older. And then I went, I got a new agent, Christopher Little, who discovered Harry Potter.

I thought, well, he knows all he's doing. And I said, oh, should I just age up Eugenia? And he said, no, start again, which I did. But it was a baptism of fire, because writing a novel, oh my God, the discipline and the strategy you need behind it. So there was me with, you know, pen to paper that loving characters,

but having the sort of discipline and experience to do, like, plot lines and make it, putting it all together, that's a different, you know, skill set in itself. You know, I've always felt sure of character. But it was almost like I felt compelled to do it. And I sort of was learning as I went. That's why it took me so long. This is part of the reason, just to return to what was saying before, why being able to sit with a novel or a character

and allow them to breathe and grow and develop with you is so important when you're reading and why you're having to read so fast, it often doesn't give them that space to sit. Yeah, to really sort of allow that, like every word matters because when you write a book, do you know what, you have, well, you don't have to, but like for me, every word counts. And because you're asking a commitment from the reader

to stay with this book. I always try and write for the reluctant reader as well as the bookie that will devour anything but for the ones that not necessarily pick up a book. So to make it engaging, page turning. And also I like it that you're going to get real sustenance out of it, hide vegetables in chocolate. So the page turns but then actually it's going to touch your soul if you want it. That's what I try. That's what I try to do.

Well, we're going to talk about the books that have given you that. sustenance over the years over your entire life, Jerry, and your first book, Shelfy book, is the story of Tracy Beaker by Jacqueline Wilson. Tracy Beaker is a funny, imaginative, articulate, 10-year-old girl, but she can also be angry, impulsive and a little bit violent too. Tracy lives in a children's home, but constantly hopes that her absent, glamorous mum, will come and take her away. One day, Cam visits the home to write a piece on the children.

Tracy, being something of a writer herself, resolves to help out. The two, former bond, and Tracy begins to wonder if Cam might represent a way out of the home for goods. What impact did this book and Jacqueline Wilson's work have on you? Okay, so Jacqueline Wilson, I think she's incredible. She's absolutely incredible. And what I like about this writing, first and foremost, is that it's not airbrushed, it's scratchy, it's real, but done in a very digestible manner that sometimes topics that you might feel a bit uncomfortable. And so Tracy Beaker, she's, as you said, she's angry and I think, and it's sort of

understandably so and that's real and it sort of maybe gives you permission to be. I think they really lend themselves importantly to that time in the, in the spectrum of things. I think for any child to pick up that book, there's something very fresh about it of its time as well. And then what I've got to go on to say is that Jacqueline Wilson has been like instrumental in my writing. I met her, I met her, I think one of the first places I met her was at Battersea Dogs Home. And she's just an absolute dear heart. She's lovely. And I said to, and my first draft of my current book, that's out Rosie Frost, and this is like nine years ago.

And the characters have stayed the same, but I've developed, developed, developed. And she read that first draft. And that was, I have to say, it wasn't probably in the best of shape, right? Must be generous. But she was so generous with me and encouraging. And then what she did was she introduced me to Jane Eyre. was giving talks on Janeair and she invited me to those talks. And then she was sort of masterclassing me in, in a way.

And, you know, and then to be able to seven years later to give her, say, look, I carried on. I mean, there's been a whole journey since then, but, you know, to give her a finished product. And, you know, she read it and then endorsed it and said it was, you know, it was, she gave very positive comments to me. And I was like to have someone that really like mentors you and champions you is such a gift and she's such a nice person. So I'm going to say everything she touches is amazing. So chappo to her.

And for someone who's been so instrumental, so impactful and inspirational to you as well to be able to see the development in your work. Yeah. It's like the most epic tutoring. Yeah. I feel like she was a big part of every young girl's life. Yeah. I remember at school we would pass her books around like they were gold dust. We would talk about them.

They formed the basis of our understanding of the fact that we're all different and everyone's going through something. You never know what someone's going through. I remember there was Tracy Beaker, there was The Bed and Breakfast Star, there was Bad Girl, there was illustrated mom. They taught us empathy because they taught us that behind closed doors, anything could be going on. Yeah. But we need to be kind to one another. Yeah.

Actually, so the book that I've currently written is slightly, maybe slightly older. You can be 10, but she's a 13-year-old girl, but the actual DNA of what you were just talking about that don't judge a book by his cover. We're sort of, we're more alike than different, probably on the inside. but as you never know what's going on with somebody and giving each other that grace which I just think is such an important value to have. Important lesson for all the young girls and boys reading. But then we don't want to be preached at

and I think it's really important that books, they are wrapped in chocolate and they're funny and adventurous and move with pace because otherwise it's boring. Who wants to be bored? Do you know what I mean? So I think if you can find that balance of, you know, there's a little bit of sustenance in there

but then it moves with pace and that's brilliant. They will laugh out loud funny books all of Jacqueline Wilson's novels and just the cornerstone of growing up. What were you like growing up? Were you an avid reader then? Yeah, I've always been in super studious.

I got, like, I come from a working class background. So I was at this one particular school and this what for girls grammar they picked two kids from my school to go to that very sort of academic school which was a privilege but I always lent on books to because we didn't have much money

and so when everyone else was going on holiday I would just read they'd transport me to another time another place whether it was lying the witch in the wardrobe or at the time or I think it was quite Enoch you'd blighton. I'm the naughtiest girl in the school.

So I've always lent on books. I just love the escapism. I can literally ignore the world for that moment and dive into a good book. I love it. So from getting lost in these books, turning to them for your entertainment, how did you make that transition to become the entertainer?

How did performance enter your life? You know, I always love music. There's another form of medium. I like, it's a bit like when you write a book or you write a song, the only way I can describe it to someone that doesn't, if they've ever baked a cake or made a meal and made someone go, hmm, that's a good feeling, isn't it? It's a good feeling.

And I would say that's a really lovely thing to be able to do to connect. I think ultimately I love connecting with people, sharing. I think that's a really nice thing. I think it's human beings we want to do that. So having the, you know, the opportunity through music to do the same thing is just a different medium, which I absolutely adore. Your second book, Shabby book, Jerry, today is I know why the Cage Bird sings. Yeah. Mya Angelou.

Yeah. Which is one of the most widely read and taught books written by an African-American woman. This is the first of seven autobiographical works written by Dr. Maya Angelou, published in 1969. It follows Maya's life from age three up until age 16, where we learn of her unsettled and often traumatic childhood, where she endured both rape and racism. Maya wrote this book as a way of dealing with the death of a friend and her own experiences of discrimination and extreme poverty.

But why did you pick it? Oh my God. First of all, I think Maya Angelou is my hero. I think she's absolutely amazing. you know, spiritually, intellectually. And she's sort of a bit of a polymast. She's like crosses over into so many mediums. You know, she likes to dance.

She likes to write. She likes all sorts of things, poetry, everything. And, you know, she's full of wisdom and full of heart. And that book, that touch, you know, that's quite a hard read and, you know, the topics it touches. but she sort of, she's one of these people in life and she's no longer with us, but she turned her, politely put, she turned her poop to fertilizer.

Does that make sense? Yeah. She owned her power through very, very difficult, you know, situations. She turned it into power, which is so inspiring. You know, she stopped speaking, you know, and I always, you know, And I always think sometimes through literature, you know, it can be the voice for the voiceless. You see, she's empowered others through her own honesty, through her own, you know, trauma.

And to have the courage to share it is incredible. And then she wrote this poem also called Phenomenal Woman, which is amazing. I actually made it into a song. Then I asked the, I had to get permission from the My Angelou estate, which is the, agreed but I just find her just wonderful and ahead of her time. One of the most incredible voices, not just of a generation, but of several generations. She's taught us all. I learned her words through my mum who passed them down to me, who passed down from her

mum, and I hope that that continues. Yeah, I think she's timeless. You've just said it. Her words of wisdom are so full of heart. They're timeless, which is, it says so. much about her. I would say that she's worth a read. That book is worth read. And it will beyond that book if you just want to like just look at some of her writings. And then what I like about is she did lots of things as well, which is quite inspiring too. She stood up for so many people

and you use the word power. Yeah. She empowers her readers. She empowered herself. She stood for power and basking and standing in your own power. So I do have to mention. and girl power. Yeah. Is it as important now as it was 30 years ago when it was a slogan that you used to do. I think power, you know, is something that we all want to feel. And sometimes we can feel completely powerless. It doesn't matter who we are.

And, you know, that word, girl power, I think, you know, there's always an evolution. You can go deeper. It can go wider. And it can go for everyone. and I ultimately still stand strong for me absolutely but I think it's existed before I said it you know look at our predecessors okay my angelio she had it then go back a bit more I don't know Emeline Pankhurst

Frida Carlo she had it go back to okay so I touch on the you know the Tudor times Queen Elizabeth I certainly had it You know, I think it's existed beyond, you know, and it goes on. It goes on and it gets richer and deeper. How important are positive role models for girls to you? I mean, I know Eugenia Lavender, who we've mentioned your book series, centred on the adventures of a positive female role model for young girls.

Yeah. Rosie Frost and the Falcon Queen. Yeah. Why is this important to you? I always try and feel what everybody else is feeling. you know, what is it? And if I really am honest, that I just felt I looked at the world as we stand today

and I felt that the world needs a new hero, 100%. Because we can look at, you know, those alpha girls that, you know, can do everything and, you know, fit and strong and, you know, fantastic. Well, that's great. But actually, maybe we need an ordinary hero. And maybe her power isn't one that. comes from within. It's like about finding the courage

that you never knew you had. Maybe that's a hero. And maybe one that shows weakness through vulnerability. Maybe the new hero is vulnerable. And maybe that takes far more courage. And could I write a story that, you know, has characters

that imbue those qualities and but also the characters around her, like Beena, when she's really intelligent, but, you know, she likes to rehearse. wrestling. But then the boys cry in this story and the girls save the boys. It's a modern day here. But then we look back at the past, you know, it's entrenched the school that it is, it's entrenched the DNA of it. It's a more, it's set in the modern times, but it's entrenched in history is built by Queen Elizabeth I, in honour of her mother and Berlin. It was smart and brilliant,

but was shamed by a misogynistic pig because, you know, he wanted something different and, you know, the sort of vipers around that court. So I felt back to Rosie Frost now. She embodies what I feel what we need, a bit of hope that it's okay to not be perfect. It's okay to feel angry or sad. And sometimes we're going to have to face challenges.

and it's watching her story face those challenges that hopefully will inspire you in a very, very fast, positively aggressive way. You know, the story just moves, you know, it's adventure and it's for any age as well. I think, just knowing you just briefly, I think, oh, I think you might connect with it. You know, it's got a squid game vastness to it,

not quite as violent, but it's got that feeling to it. But then it's like enriched with history. So if you've got that, if you want it. And conservation, if you want it. Well, this is what I always say about young girls and boys is that, you know, we keep saying, oh, you can be anything. But the truth is you can also be everything. And I love when a book gives you so many options. You don't have to fit in any box.

There is so much power to be found in all different places. It's exciting to go out and find it. That's so nice. I think if you can see it, you can be it. Yeah. And that's what I always trying to have very real character. that we can champion and root for, but they're in their own lanes, and aren't we all? Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing

by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. If you're looking to learn more this year, then we recommend the How-To Academy podcast, a bi-weekly show from London's home of big thinking. They invite the world's most exciting leaders, scholars and entrepreneurs to share their ideas for transforming our lives and the world.

Past episodes include Bill Clinton and James Patterson on creative partnerships, Isabel Agende and Gloria Steinem on feminism, the late Madeline Albright on diplomacy, Noam Chomsky on the politics of the climate crisis, Melinda Gates on philanthropy, Marianna Masuacato on the consulting industry, Leis Doucette on the future of Afghanistan, and much more. If you want to know how Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Ressa stands up to dictators, how comic book Pioneer boosts his imagination, or how Chelsea Manning fights for a more transparent society,

you'll find out with How To Academy. They have episodes featuring a few of our own favourite women authors, including Kate Moss, Maggio Farrell, Anne Patchett, and Claire Fuller. The How To Academy podcast is your one-stop show to broaden your thinking and hear from the artists and experts shaping our world. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Jerry, let's talk about your third book, Shelfy book. And we don't know what I picked.

I'll give you a blur. Well, we touched on history, and it's Hamlet by Maggie O'Farre. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God, indeed. This is, of course, a women's prize-winning novel, which explores the short life of Hamlet Shakespeare. This is a tenderly written and emotionally devastating account of the Bard's only son.

His name was given to one of the most celebrated plays ever written. What was it about Maggie's extraordinary writing that drew you in? And this book that left a scar on my heart. No, what beautiful way to put it? It's probably, I would say, it's a bookworm. kind of book. It's not a reluctant reader's book, if I'm honest. If you love books, I would say you love this book. It's absolutely brilliant. There's for so many reasons. Okay, first of all, it's really cleverly idea, you know, written from the point of view of being of Shakespeare's wife.

Agnes. Agnes. And she's like seen as wild and misunderstood. That's, that's, interesting in itself. It's really original. And then this book tore my heart open. I was sobbing at anyone can't, any bookworm, like, I'm in bed, okay, my husband is next to me and he's looking at me and I'm sobbing, looking at him. No, I'm just ignoring him and just sobbing into this book. It's so, so heartbreaking. And he's like, what the hell is going on with you? And I'll just leave me alone. And it's in the power of a to do that.

To do that. Okay. So that was, so I always, if it can really touch you like that and it's quite, it's really, it's a hard read. But then the other thing is, you know, I studied Hamlet at school. So to, so cleverly to put that sort of the icebergs, the undertones of why Shakespeare did, wrote that is, and then here's the other thing. And you get a sort of a tapestry of history.

So at that time, the bubonic plague was happening. And when I was reading it, I think COVID was happening. Right. Layers, they're really? Yeah. I was like, oh my God. And she describes, and this is another layer which she cleverly does, she describes how the flea jumps off, they're on the boat,

how this treacherous flea, transifies the plague from, I think it was sort of scarf. I might be getting this wrong because I read it a while ago, but I'll never forget this. The way it went from one carpet to the scarf to the human being. And the way it does it, you're just like, oh my God, it really, it really gets you. And I thought that was really clever,

because it sort of broke another wall. She broke another wall. So I thought that was really clever. and then seeing it from like Shakespeare was not perfect, you're thinking, you're you cheating on her? You know, you've gone for weeks and left her. You know, it humanises everything, which I thought was really clever. She does this thing with historical fiction

where it sort of re-contextualizes our present. It makes us look at the things that are going on right now from a new light. Yeah. She gives voice to the voiceless. Krishy, like you said, the perspective of Agnes, Shakespeare's wife, a figure largely lost from history. Are you drawn to women's stories? Okay, so you just said, if we look back,

is it Shakespeare said it's like the history is our prologue, right? And so, okay, so I'm absolutely fascinated with the Tudors always have been, right? And then I thought, okay, let's look back from another point of view, Amber Lynn. And so that's when I started really unpicking. Actually, if you look at her from a human point of view, she was your age, probably 30, not even 30, and like you, and she had not even a three-year-old daughter, and it's going to be executed for what?

And who wrote that narrative to say what she did? And I sort of researched a bit more. She was into the NHS in reform. and she wanted to use the crown's money for the greater good and Cromwell didn't like it and she hasn't provided an air, a male air. And so you think, oh my God, this is horrendous, this is poor woman, what she went through.

So I sort of looked at it from that perspective. What can we learn from that and bring it into the now? And to see it from that perspective, and you suddenly get, oh my God. then she was mother to the greatest monarch of her time, Queen Elizabeth I do like looking at history. And that's not the way we're taught it in schools. And crucially, history is not a science.

It's very much a narrative that is written by someone, whoever has the power and has decided how we are to view the past. When we flip it and when we look at it from someone else's perspective, we can reclaim our voice so often. I personally, I love trying to look at history from different perspectives, specifically women's because so often they have been silenced. And who wrote the history as well? Exactly. That's another thing you've asked ourselves. Who wrote that?

I think you realize that it's not fact and it's not truth. And it's important for us to constantly keep reframe reframing. Jerry, you played such a huge role in feminism in the 90s. Arguably, you encouraged a whole generation of girls and young women to speak up for themselves, to find their voices, to reframe that power. Did you realize the gravitas of that movement when it was happening? I've always been inspired by, you know, the arts culturally. And I like connecting with people. So, you know, I was always that believer of like, come on, let's stand together. you know, I was I was charity monitorist at my school.

I was one of, I was that girl. Come on, let's do this. Me too. I was charity monitor at my school. There you go. I was that. And so naively or not, I always felt there was an importance to what, you know, we're doing here. And I still do, you know, if I, when I think it's, you know, it's this worth it.

this is worth it and I feel compelled. My instinct drives me a lot. You know, emotion and an instinct. I think I care about the word. I care about you. And, you know, it's really lovely when you see, you know, other people inspired or connecting and going, yeah, just like I was inspired by someone.

And I go, oh yeah, that helped me. And I think we pull each other over the wall. Support comes in different ways, in different places. Sometimes you might not have the parents to give you that. They might not be present for no fault of their own. And so if you can find it through literature or music or each other, friendship, whatever it is, I think that's a wonderful thing. On the subject of that support, you talked about Jacqueline Wilson

and how she'd supported your work a little earlier. And upon your meeting, she was delivering a seminar about Jair. Yeah. Coincidentally is your fourth. Yeah. Shelfy book. Yeah. Jane Air by Charlotte Bronte. This was Charlotte Bronte's first published novel and was immediately recognized as an important work when it appeared in 1847. This classic Gothic story follows a defiant, fiercely intelligent woman who refuses to accept her appointed place in society.

And instead, she finds love on her own terms. So when was it that you read Janeair? Jacqueline Wilson gave that. That was the first time. I obviously, we've all heard of it. Yeah. But I had never bothered to read it. And I read it and I felt like it was important to read it.

And she's and Jacqueline unpicks it in her seminar. What really strikes me again, this is only from writing my own novel. Okay. Every novel, if it's set in the present time of what it's written, reflects what's going culturally. For example, okay, so I can only show you this. When I wrote this novel, I had about four editors all over it saying, you can't write this because it's offensive. Well, you can't use the word, you know, when you say, oh, that was crazy.

You know, you can't write that word, you know, just as a descriptive, you know, just a flippant one. Right. Yeah. Or certain things that you wouldn't think of. And culturally, you think, oh. And I thought, okay, I'm going to adhere to that because it's reflective of. our times. What's the other one? Frankenstein, Mary Shelley. If you look at that Victorian, the way it's written, constructive, it's very austere of its time. So looking, taking it to Jane Eyre,

and the way it's written is really reflective of that time. So you're sort of getting a sense of what it is, and how it was. And so, oh my God, you know, chapeau, well done to this brave, author that put it down like that into a character. That's even more, it deserves even more credit because if you look at it, it's quite an austere, very, you know, oppressive and she had the courage to write it like that. I thought, you know, that character, that can't be easy. How did it make you feel when you read it?

No, like, I think you can feel, and the way it's written is quite, I wouldn't say it's the most, it's quite, I found it quite cold in certain ways. She's not gushing, like she's not the most emotive writer. However, you sort of get a sense of her loneliness and like how curt it is. How, so I felt a bit sorry for her. You know, she's having to clip herself, you know, and be very contained. But then she's sort of quite stoic.

This idea of having to clip yourself. having to stay contained, having to adhere to the social moors and norms of the time. Yeah. Is it something that resonates with you? As someone who was very young in the spotlight, scrutinized in the spotlight, especially for the early 2000, the 90s, can you remember feeling that pressure to be perfect? I think we can put our own standards on ourselves. I think perfectionism.

I mean, I think I'm, I can still, you know, we can be our own worst judge, you know, and what standards there are. And when I was younger, he's the gift of youth, right, that haven't fallen down too many times. And, you know, there's a sort of youthful bravado, maybe a naivety as well. and so I'm I felt quite how would I put it you know I was quite

gun ho you know my my elbows were out you know on my shoulder I was crossing my arm here you know there's there was a bit of that coming along with it and I don't know what gave me that whether it was just instinct

it was the way I was made that way you know my sister was born in the same family she's very different to me it's just I was made this way I don't know why and then I think you know as one gets older, you suddenly start to feel, okay, I haven't got that useful bravado anymore,

that enjeun that you can lean on. And so you start to be a bit more considered. You know, when you, and again, I'll put it and use this analogy, right? Once I went to this ice skating, it was for a charity. And there was all these little kids, and they were sick kids. And they were on the ice skates. And they were whizzing around the ice ring, right? And they're just going for it. And then you look to the, and these were sick children, right? And then the moms and dads, they're all gripping to the sides, right?

Because they know what it feels like to fall over. I think that's the difference between, you know, the life experience. It can suddenly sense you a little bit if you've fallen down. I think it's just life. I was with some friends recently. We were talking about how wild and irisputable. responsible we used to be, but because we didn't know what the repercussions were. Yeah, the two you've just said in one sentence, 100%.

But then I think coming out the other side, I would say when I, you know, now I'm 50, that you suddenly go, actually, I'm standing on experience now. Before I had bravado. And then I was sort of in no man's land. Now I've got, you know, I still don't have the answers. I still make mistakes. made some mistakes last week. I was like, oh, God. But actually, there's a little bit more, the confidence is coming from a little bit of trust in myself, my experience. Confidence does start to come from different places. I also think that your integrity as you get older, because

you know what you like, you know what you care about, you know what you stand for. We were talking before about the importance of caring for others, of wanting to help others. You do so much charity work, breast cancer care, the Princess Trust, you're a goodwill ambassador for the UN. How important is it for you to give to others? Actually, I think it's gratuitously giving or self, I get something out of giving. Okay, it's really simplified. You know, when you see somebody that there's asking for money in the street, and they want a pound, right? They just want, they just want a little bit of money. And you give them that. Don't you feel better? Yeah, I would say when I like work with a refugee charity and I'm always like,

it's quite selfish because it makes me feel really... Yeah, it's selfishly giving. So I actually... They can't do nothing. Exactly. So there's a triangulation of like everybody win, win. And actually, I think the more I give to the world, the more I get back anyway in so many different ways,

I think, you know, whether it's sharing my experience, whether it's sharing love, whether it's sharing finance, I do know in any way. When I'm generous, my spirit feels like, I feel good about myself anyway. So perhaps I'm selfish in that respect. But I think as I've grown older, I'm saying that, you know, having children and, you know, even with my husband, just you wait, right? that watching them triumph and watching their journeys and watching them win in big and small things

gives me just as great joy, if not greater, joy than actually my own, which is quite peculiar feeling when I used to be like, oh, this is what this is about me. It's genuine. And it's feeling in the world. Yeah. Just the other day, I remember looking around the room and seeing all my friends and family having. a wonderful time, like literally just dancing and having the best time and my heart has never

felt fuller. Yeah, it's nice. Best feeling in the world. That's lovely. The best feeling in the world. And I think fundamentally human beings, we're meant to be connecting like that. But, you know, we're human. So, you know, we have our egos, our fears that, you know, the ghost that sort of cripples

that sometimes. And here we are. And we're sharing. Yeah. That's what it's all about. And it's time to share your fifth book, Shelfy book now. Jerry, I was not expecting Henry the Eighth to come up so much during this chat, and he has. And your fifth book is The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth by Antonio Fraser.

In a sweeping narrative, Fraser traces the cultural, familial and political roots of each of Henry's queens, pushes aside the stereotypes that have long defined them, which we were just speaking about, and illuminates the complex character of each. The result is a superb work of history through which these six women become a, as memorable as their own achievements and mistakes, as they have always been for their fateful link to Henry the 8th. Tell us a bit about this book. So when I ride, in a part of it, is you've got to research.

And the novel that I have, I sort of turn the volume up a tiny bit on reality in certain things and certain, but a lot of the historical facts are truth. and so I was in a I love just randomly going into bookshops and secondhand bookshops and there is one locally to me and I just saw this book and picks it up

and I thought this is useful and what I liked about it is that I like I'm very curious but I'm lazy right so I want to know the facts yeah I'm not like it's almost like

I've read physics books but for kids. So that makes sense. And I get a, I just want to get a handle of it. Yeah. Really. Just sort of know, understand it a little bit. Oh, I'm, I'm a big fan of a breadth of knowledge over depth of knowledge. Yeah. There you go. So what I like about this book, you sort of get an understanding, a very, it's, it's simply put, it's not indulgent. And so you get a handle of each queen and they're humanized as well. So it's an, it's an each. It's quite an easy read, if I'm honest, which pleased me. Yeah.

What was it that you took from it? I mean, we've talked about Amber Lynn already. You know, I'm on one book too for Rosie and touches on Jane Seymour. But the Ambelin thing, you just think it just sort of validifies what I thought. She was completely thrown under the bus by men around her. There was Thomas Cromwell who started out as her ally because they shared the same. interest in their sort of religious view. But as soon as he felt that she was wielding too much power,

he was like, get rid of her, get rid of her and threatened by, you know, there's a saying the sharper the knife. There's a saying, the high you rise, the sharper the knives. And so her power is rising. And let's face it, haven't you seen it? Even modern days, everyone hates it when the wife is having too much influence. on the leader. Oh, it's the classic trope, isn't it? Yeah. And so

he doesn't like it. So he thinks, okay, I'm going to fight and he does it very, very cunningly. He puts another, you know, a much more complying female in front of Henry who, and so he just, and Henry's

just, you know, going through whatever he's going through by that stage and entrenched in fear and guilt. And and I just I just read it and I just felt dreadfully sorry for this woman. If you humanise it, you're like, oh my God, this is awful.

We learn about Henry the Apes Wives as very two-dimensional at school. And it's a huge part of the curriculum. But we don't give them any human qualities. Did you feel like you related to them when you read this? Did anything resonate with you on a personal level? I think, you know, I really responded to seeing them as three-dimensional, as you've said. Not perfect. None of them are perfect. Who is? Who are not? No one is.

But I thought that was a really healthy way. And I just thought, actually, although this is all very entertaining and dramatic and, you know, we've all read about it, but actually this is real people to learn. from it and sometimes things don't you know we've moved on dramatically in in well in this country but in certain countries not so much looking back Jerry over your life and career and I would love to know what work are you most proud of a very very interesting question well can I say I'd say a baby is better than a number one record yeah that's the truth isn't it yeah that is very very true. You know, I've been very ambitious and there's nothing wrong in that. I think, you know,

I think it's fantastic and I still am. But I'd like to say that ambition should be have a rebrand that you're allowed to be. Having said that, it's balanced, you know, holding a like a trophy is not going to keep you warm at night, is it? And I've learned that. So, you know, my family, I'm really proud, you know, that I'm in a loving relationship and I've got some beautiful children. I would say that that's very fulfilling. So it's balanced, but equally, you know, to maintain your own identity. And if I couldn't be creative, I'd, you know, I'd feel like I was starving.

And so that's why I'm very, very grateful to be able to do something, you know, alongside and still show up for my family at the same time. So I think I'm very proud of them, really, if I'm honest. I couldn't agree more. I was asked the same question the other day, what you're most proud of? And I was like, my relationships, the people that I love. Yeah. I've got one final question for Jerry, for you.

You go. If you had to choose one book from the five that you've brought today as a favourite, and if you look mortified that you've got to pick one, just one as a favourite. it, which would it be and why? I probably Hamnet. I think that's probably the one that I'd take in 10 years' time. I'd still mention it. I think that's in its own lane.

And I love things that make you cry. And so I really feel like it moved me. And I think, yeah, that's a book that will, is timeless. Absolutely exquisite. Have you read it? Yes. Well, when it won the Women's Prize for Fiction,

and then, of course, the marriage portrait by Maggie O'Farre, I don't know if you've read that yet. So that was nominated, shortlisted last year, also absolutely... What's that about? Again, she's taken a sort of forgotten voice,

Queen the Cretia. Who's that? I don't know who that is. She was married off to a Duke much, much older than her. She was essentially a child at times. Yeah. And she believes that he's trying to kill her throughout the book because she can't produce a child.

And it's just, yeah, written from her perspective, someone that has sort of been forgotten through history apart from a portrait of her. Interesting. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. If you look at like, again, you've said the exactly same theme, okay, that women, you've got to produce like a child. And then I thought it was really interesting that you may find. Like Queen Elizabeth, if you just look at it on really basic human terms, right?

Imagine if you knew that your father killed your mother, right? That would put me off marriage. No wonder Queen Elizabeth never married again. No wonder. And yet the reasons that were assigned to her for not marrying are those classic words that are like given to women being bossy or difficult, you know, tyrannical. Yeah. And yet, of course she wouldn't want to.

Dad called a mum. Yeah, no wonder. No wonder. I was like, okay, yeah, lay that one out. Unpack it. I said. I had no idea I'd come here today and find you to be such a history buff, and I absolutely love it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us to chat about books, about history, about life. Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you, very. So nice. I'm Vic Hope, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you. by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media.

Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.