Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep22: Bookshelfie: Kenya Hunt

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Editor-in-Chief of ELLE UK Kenya Hunt discusses her love of the essay, the multiplicity of motherhood and the importance of blazing your own trail.   Kenya is an award-winning American journalist who has now been working in the UK for a decade. Her career spans working for some of the most influential women's publications on both sides of the Atlantic, from her post-graduate days as an Assistant Editor at the seminal magazine, Jane, to her time as Deputy Editor of Grazia UK. Kenya is the author of Girl Gurl Grrrl: On Womanhood and Belonging in the Age of Black Girl Magic, and in 2021, she was recognised by The British Fashion Council for her work with a Global Leader Of Change Award.  Kenya’s book choices are: **All About Love by bell hooks **The Flagellants by Carlene Hatcher Polite **Against Interpretation by Susan Sontag **The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison **Creative Visualisation by Shakti Gawain  Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

As I was heading out the door, you know, I had this dress on. It was my first time wearing it. I loved it. It was so beautiful. And then my four-year-old comes and gives me a big bear hug. It, like, buries his face and my leg and removes his face in, like, the syrup from his waffled. Oh, nice. There's a face print of. So these are these just, like, basic, like, motherhood stuff. And things that I used to roll my eyes at before I had kids, I feel like I've become that cliche of a mom who has these kinds of stories. But I think it's also really quite telling, like, the different hats that we wear and the different spaces that we occupy. With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast.

Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope, and I'm your host for Season 6 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction. to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. I am delighted to have Kenya Hunt, the editor-in-chief of LUK, on the podcast today. Kenya is an award-winning American journalist who's now been working in the UK for a decade.

Her career spans working for some of the most influential women's publications on both sides of the Atlantic, from her postgraduate days as an assistant editor at the Seminole magazine Jane to her time as deputy editor of Grazia E.K. Kenya is also the author of Girl, Girl, Girl, Girls, on womanhood and belonging in the age of Black Girl Magic, which is brilliant. If you haven't read it, definitely check it out. And in 2021, she was recognised by the British Fashion Council for her work with a Global Leader of Change Awards.

Welcome to the podcast, Kenya. Thank you for having me. It's so good to see you. We've chatted before, not to big up another podcast at all, but I do another podcast about black music. We've chatted about your lives and the music that you love and has shaped you as you've grown up. But now it gets to talk about boots, which is, honestly, my two favorite things, music and book, my happy place. So yeah, it's a real thrilling experience to eager sitting with you today. You were saying before we began recording that there's something very special about getting to have those conversations about literature or even, you know, non-fiction. And why do you love that so much?

Well, for me, when I'm home, like, doing anything that doesn't, you know, require a screen, I love to put on a podcast and listen to an author talk about writing. It's my happy place. I love books. I love to read and I love to listen to writers talking about writing. And that might be kind of a naval, gazing thing as a writer, as a journalist, but to me, it's such a happy place, like books. And when I lived in New York, I used to love to go to the 92nd Street wine and just hear, authors talk. It's one of my favorite things to do. So it's, yeah, it's just a really nice treat

to to sit here with you after having listened to, like, previous episodes that you've done and, you know, your past seasons and having enjoyed them. I have not understood something about when you hear an author. And I think particularly, obviously, this podcast is about women who I, you know, there is so much that you take away. I come away from every single recording with an little piece of fight or an experience that I've heard that's really resonated or even just a recommendation for a book, but it really feels like I needed it. You know, like if I'm like I can wear, I always say,

wear her on my neck like a pearl. It's a pearl of wisdom. Hearing these women told that thing, but I need it to hear sometimes. Yeah. And I think that is also how I view reading, you know, like, number one, it's a portal to a different world. Like it's a, you know, a source of entertainment. But also I think it's a way of helping to make sense of the world. And so oftentimes, like some of the books that I chose when I read them and I keep

revisiting them over and over again because I feel like there are certain messages embedded in the narratives that have, you know, resonated with me. You know, they were messages I needed to year in a time where they had messages that have really been the making of me that I keep with me that have never left me or in ones that I just continue to revisit when I'm in sticky periods and I feel like I need some clarity and things like that. And so I think that's, you know, a really strong book, a novel or work of nonfiction, you know, it tells a really compelling a story that captures your attention, but also it can just unlock a different way of looking other world, which is why I love, like, just having that uninterrupted time to read.

So I'm counting down when I could like really like get into my summer books that, yeah, because I am talking to at a point at which you have a lot of work on because it's getting it all in before you go away. So are you, I mean, I'm sure you read a lot for work, but also, you know, when you have your downtime, What does reading mean to you or quick books do you gravitate towards? I tend to gravitate towards books by women, books by women of color. I love fiction, you know, literary fiction, narrative, nonfiction. But it really kind of runs the gamut.

I've never been a big science fiction person, but I love Octavia Butler. So sometimes there's an author who will be my gateway into a genre that I don't necessarily tend to gravitate towards and things like that. But I think it's definitely the stories of women in particular that I tend to. gravitate towards. I often, you know, I find that I connect with stories where I can see like little seeds of myself where there's experiences that I can relate to. And most often those are, you know, written by women. Yeah, you said about the way a good book, a strong book can change your perception of the world. I would say the best books are those that change the way you look at the world, but also change the way you look at yourself. Yeah. So we're going to

talk about the books that have done just that for you. Your first book, Shelfy book, Kenya is all about love by Belle Hicks. Beautiful, an enduring classic by an iconic author. This is the acclaimed first volume in the Love Song to the Nation trilogy. This book looks into what causes a polarized society and how to heal the divisions and instill caring, compassion and strength in our homes, schools, and workplaces. I mean, I think Bell Hux is just one of those foundational voices in black feminist thought. And so for me, she was very much, you know, I, before, I had the language to really articulate my feelings and opinions around feminism. It was women like or people like Bell Hux who really introduced me to a way of thinking

and also helped me understand myself in my sort of sense of selfhood, growing into my own sense of selfhood in black womanhood. But also the power of her essays, you know, as a journalist, essays is such a big part of what we do at, you know, women's media and also women's magazines historically. I think Bell hooks and then people like Susan Sondag and John Diddy and and Tony Morse, you know, they were the women who really converted me to the power of the essay as a form and as a medium and that sense of like shorter form writing compared to a book, but also how it can be like something that responds to culture, but also at the same time a driver of culture.

but I think with Bell Hooks in particular, I found myself gravitating towards all about love and returning to it a lot during COVID because things did feel so fraught and polarized and it was such a really kind of ennerving period. I really love that idea of leading with love and also exploring like all the many facets of love and the different kinds of ways that we love

rather than just focusing purely on the romantic. And I think she does that so beautifully. Even for me, like I love writing. I love the work that I do. Like what does that mean to live? lead with love even in your career. Like these spaces where we tend to compartmentalize and sectionings and you just think one preclusi other, like the two can't coexist for instance.

And so I loved her writing because it really helped me sort of make sense of the way that I move in the world and my feelings about my own outfit, the work that I do, but also like the legacy I want to lead behind, like the kind of work I want to leave out there in the world. But I think, yeah, I mean, this one is, it is a real foundational. foundational text. It had a whole life on TikTok. Book Talk, you know, has been obsessed with all about love for a while. It's one of those books that you see shared next to like a cup of coffee with like the heart. The Instagram poets as well, Leanne, fill out the quotes. And I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at that either. Let it live a long, long life. I think, yeah, we could use

some more more about the world. She does challenge this traditional notion of romantic love as being the cornerstone of what love is yes, what is love for? What is love to you? I think for me, love is, I mean, it means so many things. I have two small children so lately, and as they grow, I've been thinking about a lot about love within the context of motherhood and selflessness and what that means and also how it really creates a heightened sense of purpose. Like it drives a different sense of purpose when you're responsible for another life, you know, in this world.

And also, like, integrity and values and all of those. things are very much sort of wrapped up in love with me. But also, you know, Bell Hooks talked about this idea of sort of radical acceptance and the ways that we accept the flaws in one another and the ways that we interact with each other. Because I think especially now in this age of social media, you can encounter divisions or blockages with people. And it can be so easy to sort of shut that person and off or the idea off or just surround ourselves with exactly what we want and need at the time. I think there's value in that, but also in a relationship level, what does it mean to accept ourselves, but also to accept other people while at the same time keeping our best interests at heart? Relationships can be a mind field, you know, romantic relationships, relationships with family, relationships, colleagues.

And so how do you navigate that with your sense of self-love intact, but also with your sense of love for community in the greater good? And so I think these are all things, especially in this stage of my life, you know, with the roles that I occupy at work and then at home with my kids. These are the things that I think about a lot. And so this is why I found myself like returning to this book so much. It's interesting that you mentioned the roles that you play and the love that you have to give in these different stages of your life from being a mother, from being in the home to being at work. Do you feel like your character changes as you navigate these stances? How do you get into these headspaces? Does my character change?

I don't know. My circumstances change. I mean, I think a classic point is Sunday I was at a very lovely moment for work with Cartier at a Goodwood Festival. And so that's a very, you know, one might say it's a very kind of glamorous setting You know, where you're surrounded by, you know, people who you might recognize from, like, film and television. And then I go straight home and my son has a stomach bug. Oh. Oh.

Or even before, as I was heading out the door, you know, I had this dress on. It was my first time wearing it. I loved it. I was so beautiful. And then my four-year-old comes and gives me a big bear hug. It, like, buries his face and my leg and removes his face in, like, the syrup from his wafel. No. There's that face right out.

But like, so these are, this is like basic like motherhood stuff and things that I used to roll my eyes at before I had kids. I feel like I've become that cliche of a mom who has these kinds of stories. But I think it is, it's also really quite telling, like the different hats that we wear and the different spaces that we occupy. But I like it as well because I think we do contain multitudes. Like we're never just one thing. And so this, like, they humble me consistently all the time.

So I can't like get you too. used to the luxury bubble because then I'm going to get back home and then I'm going to be like my uniform needs to be ironed but you know that sort of thing talking of those different hats that you wear and I know you grew up classically trained and said and then you know made this career change to to move into journalism how did that happen so a part of that you know I have to say my mother being the pragmatic woman she is she really nurtured in a encouraged my passion and drive for the world of arts, you know, for dance in particular. Like, I was that child who would live in a leotard. Like, I ate, slept and breathed in classical dance.

I was obsessed with George Ballenstein and Albanyali and all of that. But also at the same time, she really kind of nurtured and fostered my love of reading and books. Like, she really, I think with her, she was really pragmatic. She was like, you can pursue the world of professional being in, but there will eventually be a point where your body will stop cooperating. Like, you'll have a at a window. And so she's just kind of sort of gently, you know, helping you sort of see the promise of other sort of areas. But I think more than my mom's words, it was me moving to New York and doing them both. She said, you know, give it a try, like, you know, see how it goes. So I moved to New York and I studied. I, you know, I had a period where I was studying at Alvinalee in New York.

And I had, I did their summer intensives. And then I auditioned and danced and was in that world working in their back office while like taking classes and all of that. stuff and I began to see you know the possibilities of like the different avenues that I could take in the directions I could go in and so I started interning at the same time at various magazines and newspapers and I just realized I really love this like I love this world I love storytelling and I really want to try my hand of you know I want to take the path of being an editor and so I think that that love sort of overtook the other but it's really quite a punishing life is a day that But a beautiful thing to realize, I can have multitude of love.

Yeah. In the same way that we can be a multitude of women. Yeah. Be multifaceted. We can love so much and what glorious thing that is. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't trade that experience for the world. Like, I'm so glad that I had it.

I'm glad that I took that time in New York to do it. And also, I think it was really quite a transformative one for me because it made me see that you can do multiple things. I think that kind of stayed with me that way of operative. rating has never really left me, to be honest. Is first talk about your second video? Which is The Flagellence by Carleen Hatcher Polite. Originally published in 1967, the debut novel from the feminist and civil rights activists

interrogates the violent conflicts at the intersection of race and gender. It follows Ideal and Jimson, a young black couple living in New York City. His escalating verbal and physical clashes reflect the casual brutality inflicted on African-Americans. Now, the New York Times book could be noted on its publication that this book was among the first fictional works by a black woman to focus directly on the theme of the sometimes very bitter antagonism between black men and women. Was this a theme that interests you? You know, it was less the theme and more so her story.

So Carleen, number one, the flagellins is one of those forgotten books. So whenever I'm asked about, you know, the books that had an impact on me, I love to pull this out because it's one of those books that, has been forgotten it. I think more people need to know about it and her. So she only wrote two novels. She was a professional dancer. And then she moved to Paris and wrote this novel. And her personal story struck me. I think it was just such a beautiful example of the ways that we can occupy different spaces. I think the fact that she started out as a dancer, she had this vision for herself. She moved to Paris. She lived a life as an author. Then she settled in Buffalo

where she taught creative writing. I think there's something about that because I think sometimes as women, and I think particularly women from marginalized backgrounds or black women, you can sort of at an early age when you're in school, you can be told, okay, this is the path that you should consider.

I remember being in school at university and the professor went around the rim and asked us what we all wanted to do when we graduated. And I said I wanted to move to New York and be an editor. This was towards the end of my undergraduate studies. And she was like, oh, that's really competitive. of maybe you should try teaching instead.

I'm right of all my classmates. But I think that's sort of like people sort of try to tell you to manage your expectations. And I think with Carleen, I think she's just such a wonderful example of the fact that, you know, she blazed her own trail. And then she had, you know, she moved to Paris. She wrote this very experimental novel, like the format. Essentially, it's this breakdown of this relationship or like a lot of them passionate dialogues. They're arguing for the vast majority of the piece. And it's a non-linear narrative.

So she's writing in a completely different way, an experimental way, and basically occupying a sort of corner of the world of literary fiction that we don't typically see black women wading into. And so when I first read about her, I think it was a near time story. I read the novel because I was like, her story is so fascinating. Let me read the novel because the novel sounds riveting. And it was just one of those books that stuck with me. And I was like, it was hard to find it.

Like, I had to really hunt to try it down. But I think in the same way that Zora Neal Hurston was a brilliant writer and then kind of faded to obscurity. And then you had Alice Walker who reminded the world. Like, her writing, it needs to be remembered. It needs to be read. It needs to be sort of out there. Now, Carly and Hatchapolite was not nearly as prolific as Zorah Niel Hirsten.

But I think this is like one of those books that people have forgotten about. And I just think it's worse people being aware of in reading and knowing. So it wasn't necessarily the themes itself, although I think, you know, it's a great novel. I mean, it's quite challenging one, and that's why I also respect it. I was going to say, yeah, this experimental nonlinear style, this dense dialect as well. Are you often drawn to more experimental piece of literature out of curiosity? Not always. I mean, I think it's much harder to take complex ideas and make them accessible to people.

that just tends to be what I'm most interested in because also I think my work in the more sort of commercial media space that's always what I'm... That's what I'm thinking through. But I think one of the other books I've gotten the list, Tony Morrison is the bluest eye. You know, that was a really...

It was a real economical book quite short. She took these really complex notions around things like patriarchy and colorism and... But she made it accessible. You know, I think the first time I read it, I was maybe 12 years old. I can't, you know,

you can't... a certain age and understand it and pull something away from it. I think Bell Hux doesn't really, you know, again, she made these really complex settings, I think it's really accessible to the point where like a whole world on TikTok, yeah, can, you know, have bite size as well. Yeah. But I think I'm an omnibore, really. I just, if it's good, I'll sit down and I'll enjoy it. I love that description of the types of books that you're like, I'm an omnibore for it. this sort of blend of sharp cultural observation or thorny, hard-described issues with then the relatable stories that we've seen in Bell Hooks that we see in the Fledglants. It's something that you have to employ as a journalist, but also in your work.

Do you feel that that's something you have to do in order to include the polemic to make something relatable or personal somehow? Is it a skill that comes naturally to you as something you've had to work on? I think it kind of is more naturally to me to write. in an accessible way than an experimental way, mainly because I have the most experienced at it, having spent most of my working life writing for consumer media titles where you're writing for really big, large audiences. Although, you know, I have huge amounts of respect for writers, like things like magical realism or things that are more experimental. I wish I could write in that way, you know, sometimes they're like experiment in my journals and things like that.

I had a huge admiration for it just because I feel like my work to life is quite far away from that. But I think there's a real value in being able to sort of disseminate your work kind of far and wide. I remember talking to Barbara Kruger, who did a series of covers for us at Al. And, you know, she is someone who I've always regarded as a real hero. I've always loved to work. And I feel like she's such a, her influence on feminism is so real. like, you know, in terms of, you know, the work that she did in the aftermath of the undoing of Roe v. Wade's state side. It was Barbara Kruger's.

Your body is a battlefield, battleground, being shared or reshared her work is a really pressure. But I was talking to her and she was saying that she actually really, even though she is of the art world, there's a part of her that's quite pop. Like, she likes the fact that, you know, she wants her message to spread. She wants people to see it and understand it. Like, she's challenging people. but it's important to her that it's seen. Like she wants her work to be seen.

For me, when I'm writing or editing, like I do want my work to reach large groups of people. I'm not necessarily that person who wants it to just be consumed by like a really small select view. Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's prize of fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

Bailey's is the perfect adult treat whether shaken in a cocktail over ice cream or paired with your favourite book Check out Baileys.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes Hi, I'm Sam Baker and welcome to The Shift The podcast that aims to tell the no-holds bar truth About being a woman post-40

I started the shift because I was so tired of the absence of older women's voices Where had all the women over 40 gone? I mean seriously, if you want to walk about in your pajamas for the rest of you? your life. We're invisible. Each episode I speak to an inspiring woman about her shift. I feel very strong and think I genuinely don't care what anybody thinks of me.

Join me every Tuesday, wherever you listen to your podcasts. The third book he brought today has been consuming on a lot of food for all, of this is against interpretation by Susan Sundag. It's not the first time it's been brought to the podcast and it won't be the last, but it's such an important piece of work. The debut collection of written works consisting of articles published in the magazine's partisan review, New York review of books,

commentary The Nation and others over the period 1962 to 1965. Now, these essays were mentioned essays before. They delve into a wide variety of cultural disciplines which had been seminal to modern culture and academic discourse over the 50 years since their publication and still provoke animated intellectual discussion to this day, which is what we're having now. Tell us about what you chose this book.

I chose it because it makes me think of that period in New York when I first started working in media. And I began to sort of really cultivate my own sense of likes and dislikes as a young rising journalist. And, you know, people love to name drop Susan Soundtag and Joan Didion. Like there are certain writers who other editors love to read and talk about. I think with Susan, it was this book specifically Notes on Camp that really made me realize how much I enjoy the essay. The writing, like how rigorous it was and how she, it was really something that spoke to the time.

I think she really kind of normalized and popularized that idea of camp. It was something that the idea of it was really widespread, but she was the first to sort of really kind of give it that critical eye and pull it all together and make it make sense in this piece of cultural commentary and analysis. And I thought it was, and it was really timeless in a way. I read it and I just thought it was amazing. I loved it.

And it just made me want to read more writing like that. But also it inspired like a Met Gala a few years ago. I think it has its impact is really quite interesting. So I think it was responding to a culture. But then at the same time, I think it kind of influenced culture at the same time. So no, actually, and I wonder this a lot. How do you strike the balance in your work between some of the hard-hitting pieces that are explored in L? And then the more style-focused articles, because of course, it's a fashion magazine.

But there are some issues that you've covered that must be so proud to in public. Yeah. So I think Al is one of those brands that I love because it has such an incredibly rich history of publishing women authors. and writers. And when I first started the role, I spent a lot of time looking at the archival issues here in the UK and in France. And I love seeing those early issues back in the 80s and the 90s where Jeanette Winterson would have a cover line next to a fashion line and next to a beauty line. So, you know, I think L as a brand has always really prioritized the writing. The writing doesn't come second to the fashion and beauty. It's all equally important. And that for me is a real joy and a privilege to be

able to pick up the phone and call some of my favorite writers and authors and they'll happily contribute to the issues and that that can sit and coexist with, you know, a fashion shoot or a fashion story because we can, you know, be interested in all these things. And I think that is the joy about, you know, it really doesn't try to dumb anything down. But at the same time, it doesn't demand that anyone makes any apologies for liking what they like and loving what they love. I think it's a really dated, archaic way of thinking that you can't be a serious-minded woman and not enjoy the new Barbie film or, you know, as a new drop at Zara or like that luxury bag that you've been hunting down that you found a net a forte. I think we can do all these things

at the same time. And so that is what I love most about, you know, being out that we can give you a deeper dive with a long read and look at, you know, the state of like women's reproductive autonomy and the aftermath of Roeby, what that might mean for women here in the UK, for instance, or we can just give you a really light and fun Trinwood court in the form of an 80s. Or we can look at the current cost of living crisis year and the ways in which that's impacting our lives as women and our aspirations and our abilities to climb the property ladder or put away money or things. like that, you know, while at the same time

giving you a light and fun piece of the front of thought about like the return of B, martini, and while we're all accessible. This is why I've loved it ever since I was a little girl, I've looked at it as something very aspirational because it showed me, I don't just have the capacity to be anything, but I have the capacity to be everything.

Yeah, and that means the world. And you were given the Global Leader of Change Award as well by the British Station. What do awards like that mean to you? That was a total surprise. So that, it was just like a nice, a nice moment. And I felt really humbled by it. And, yeah, I was quite blown away by it.

And so even now, thinking back on it, I'm just, you know, I do feel just, like, deeply honored to have been recognized in that way in the first place. I'm not one of those people. You have some people who are just, like, always, like, you know, you look at the buy and they have, like, loads of awards and that sort of thing. I'm not that kind of, I don't have that history, but I won just, you know, mean a lot. I think awards are, and those kinds of accolades of the list and that sort of thing, I don't necessarily put huge amounts in it and that I don't necessarily seek it out

or feel like it's something that I have to have. But when it comes, when there's recognition in that form, I think it's like, you know, it's a really beautiful thing and a really humbling thing. And we know something that I don't take care in it. Kenny, your fourth book today, we have to mention it. So important. It's Tony Morrison with the bluest eye. This is Nobel Prize when Tony Morrison's debut novel.

and it follows a peculiar breed love for a child who every night praised for blonde hair and blue eyes so that she will be as beautiful and beloved as the privileged white children she goes to school with. This is a powerful interrogation of what it means to conform to an idea of beauty and asked vital questions about race, class and gender. It has always sort of called me

I remember being probably about six years old and after my mum in the bath to scrub the brown off me because I didn't think that was beautiful and I didn't think it was valid and this book was an important one to read at a young age as he said that you did. When did you read this book? And how is Tony Morrison influenced you?

I read it and I would have been around the age of the protagonist Picola. I think it was 12 to be honest, but she's 11 in the book. I was around that age. I used to love my local library. That was fun for me after school. I used to, I mean, I was in ballet class and I played tennis and all these activities,

but one of my favorite things to do was to go to the library, we and my girlfriend sometimes. We would sit in the back of the library and just read books. And so, you know, I was reading like Judy Blume, like all those authors who you would expect a girl at that age to read. But then I got a hold of the bluest eye, and I think it was a friend who recommended it. She'd read it first. And for us, at that age, Bricola's story of number one. on this sense of how her sense of girlhood was impacted by these deity standards,

but also the abuse, the sexual abuse that she underwent. I mean, it was unlike anything that I had read before. That was my gateway to Tony Morrison, and my love for her has grown as my life has evolved, and my understanding of who she was as an author and woman has grown and involved, but she's just one of those people I'm obsessed with. And I think the blowest eye, it was just, again, it is quite short novel, really quite economical, but really powerful. And there was so much packed in it. I think we all had those experiences with colorism or like essentially like coming up against like standards and images of beauty that we don't necessarily match.

And then being in a position where we're feeling like we're lesser than. I think women of all backgrounds have experienced that at some state, whether it's, you know, our skin tone or our hair texture, our shape and size or that sort of thing. I thought it was a powerful story in that this was a novel that centered a black girl, a child, which we don't necessarily see much of us or I didn't see much of. So that struck me. But also, I think, you know, it was a story that was really particular to Pecola, but in a way also kind of really universal.

Because I think when you look at Tony Morrison's, like, all the, you know, this sort of cross-section of readers in lives that she has touched. I think it really, you know, it spans so many. But I think this book is definitely like the gateway for so many people just because it's quite a powerful and resonant story. So for me, growing up in the South, where there is definitely that sense of, you know, the legacy of the brown paper bag role,

like, you know, if you're darker than a brown paper bag, you're less desirable or all of that was definitely. definitely in my environment. It was around me. I think my parents just did a really good job of shielding me from that. Like that, it was definitely around. So reading it, that was my first time actually reading something that confronted it head on. So I think it was a very memorable read for me. I mean, clearly because you fast forward. And in your book, you talk about the disparity between black women being more visible and publicly celebrated than ever, but then also the day-to-day struggle that many black women experience. What inspired you?

to write about this and to keep writing about this. First of all, I wanted to write about these experiences, and I wanted to do it on my own terms, rather than being at a magazine and trying to pitch these stories and then having to adapt it for, you know, the audience of whatever that title was. I wanted to be able to write and center black womanhood and write it for an audience that would span many, but, you know, but centering black women.

But also I was writing what I wanted to read, like I was trying to make sense of what I was witnessing and experiencing, And again, drawing on my love of essays, having tough fit through with my agent, I just felt like this was the best format for this kind of exercise. And so I wanted to try to make sense of what I was seeing and experiencing while at the same time I'd been itching to write about this and get it out there. And it just, I think it had to be a book rather than like a series of articles published for a range of magazines and websites and things like that.

Was there a feeling of your voice being able to authentically, truly cut through? I guess in terms of the fact that there was an element of memoir in there, like I was drawing from some of my own experiences, that, you know, there were bits in it that were deeply personal. So I am used to studying my voice as a writer and an editor in a specific kind of way, whereas this one felt much more personal than some of the, of the work that I'd done in the past. And so in a way, it felt very,

I feel like empowering sometimes sounds like a naf word, but in a way it felt slightly harring, but then in other ways it was terrifying. Often the two go hand in number. Yeah. Your fifth think, selfie book at Kenya is creative visualization by Shakti Kowain. This classic guide teaches visualization methods

that are practical and easy to incorporate in today life, helping readers use the power of their imagination to create what they want in their lives, whether it's to change negative habits or improve self-esteem, reach career goals, or experience deep relaxation. How can you fit this?

How can you add to this at the end of your list because it's a little bit different? I think because it's one of those books that has also stayed with me in my adult life. So I grew up in the Bible Belt in Virginia, so there was very much in the environment, this idea of self-optimization, but very much self-optimization

through religion. Like, you know, you're constantly working to, you know, for the greater good or to be a better person and that sort of thing, but also organized religion comes with a lot of problems. It can often alienate entire groups of people. It's a complicated thorny space. So also, I think in terms of my growth, growing into my own sense of selfhood and as a woman and all of that, a lot of that was like wrestling with and coming to terms with my own feelings about religion having grown up, you know, and the thick of it is. And so as an adult, like, basically growing or seeking out reading and educating myself about various forms of religion and what's out there, Buddhism and things like that. And then the world of self-help where you have like an abundance of different theories

and models and like it's such a big economy, the business of self-help. I encountered creative visualization through another editor. and I read it and I just quite simply like the practice of being much more conscious of the narrative that we tell ourselves in our head because oftentimes we don't even realize it that we're telling ourselves messages all day long and I think just the book does a really good job of creating that awareness of how often our thoughts can spin into a interference in negative territory

because I do deeply believe that our thoughts matter like I really believe in the power of the vision we create for ourselves, like Carleen Hatcher, polite, you know, had a vision for herself, and then she lived quite an unconventional life. You know, when you look at the, you know, the experience of a lot of her peers and confereers at the time, I think the life she lived was probably not the average. And so I think we have these visions for ourselves. And I think there's real power and making sure the feedback loop that you have in your head is one that is ultimately kind of keeping you in place of promise and possibility. Not to say that we need this sort of polyana life and like sugarcoat things and block out

the realities or like when we're going through tough times and things like that. But I think there is a real power and a sort of heightened consciousness of our thoughts and our thinking and how that can impact our lives, the way that we perceive reality, but also the ways that we encounter other people, the way we make ourselves feel. there's just, you know, oftentimes there's to talk about the way that we make other people feel, but I think there's also the way that we make ourselves feel about, you know, like when you wake up in the morning and when you go to bed at night, like it's important to be conscious of how we regard ourselves, you know, that internal thinking, like what that process looks like.

And so I think she does a really great job of presenting a really strong and valid case for being kinder to yourself and also being more intentional in the way that. that we regard ourselves and the desires that we have for our lives and how we achieve them. I've not read this book, have been practicing manifestation, visualization, mindfulness, being kinder to myself and others. And gratitude practice and gratitude. I said to my mom the other day that I was doing all this, she said, oh, so you're praying. And I was like, well, I guess so. But it's not necessarily to a God, but I do believe in a God of all the things. Like the universe is magical and what is that if not a God? Given your religion,

just background, what he's being surrounded by religion growing up. What does spirituality mean to you? I think it's so funny where your mom said, because it is, I think praying is like a kind of form of, like, you know, creative visualization or all this. It's in practice, a lot of it, in essence, you know, all these different things do, they're, you know, remarkably similar in a lot of ways. For me, spirituality right now, I think at a time when we are just constantly being bombarding bombarded with bad news all the time.

Like the scrolls just prioritize things that make us stop. And oftentimes they're really shocking things or really devastating things. I mean, even the orcas and the dolphins have had it. I keep being served all this news about the orcas who keep slamming themselves into these boats and like dolphins who are now attacking people. I'm like, we can't even just have like fun, nice, like, athletic life. But I think there's so much anger out there in terms of like social media and everything. So for me, spirituality, I mean, words that come to mind are like love, like a sense of groundedness for self, but also for community.

I think in terms of greater good, I think sometimes we, especially like amidst the wellness boom, sometimes we can become so focused on ourselves and the individuals. We forget the need of the greater good and the power of like, you know, what we can do collectively and communities with each other. because I think we need to be thinking more along those lines right now. And also with that in mind, this book, It Advocates and Deidnaxation. How do you switch on? You know, I try to be consistent with my meditation. It can be hard sometimes. Sometimes you feel like you can really prioritize,

but so many things when you're juggling many both. But for me, I love things like reformer Pilates, you know, having a nice book. being outside a lot, you know, when the weather is great, you know, finding an open body of water. I think because I grew up in a beach town, like my happy place tends to involve water, like going by the sea or a long hot bath or anything that involves water, like generally makes me happy and it tends to, I find to be really calming. That's where I sort of find, like, my sense of calm. And then also sometimes just at night, you know, when everyone's asleep, like just being able to write and have like a nice glass of wine or like a heart. hot soak and like a good book and that sort of thing. Or conversely,

just having a really loud and rowdy night with my girlfriend as well. I think he's like a really joyful thing. Like just having really like joyful moments. Like I love laughter, like loud, loud, rowdy, obnoxious laughter. I do want to ask you just quickly before we wrap up. You're the founder of room mentoring, which advocates greater diversity within the fashion industry by supporting and providing a network for new talent.

I feel like some of the things you said, although they're about, you know, relaxing on a personal level, it's good advice because that perspective and that balance is also what's going to emboldened as an empower. But I'd love to know overall for that new talent, for anyone listening to this who's looking at potentially a career like yours, what would be your advice? I think my advice would be to be clear in your vision,

for yourself and if it's not clear be kind to yourself that's okay too but just to remain open to the possibilities like you know our lives can take these twists and turns or you can stay on a dedicated path and stay at a course but I think just um allowing ourselves to dream and and not necessarily basically rejecting any kind of boxing in that that people might try to impose on them I think um And we're always being told to sort of manage our expectations of what we can do and what we can achieve in many ways. And so I really try to encourage young people to really hold on to these limitless possibilities that they had in that. Try to, you know, break out of any sort of patterns of self-limiting belief, which can be so easy to seem to do. Well, we've ended on creative visualization, but we've gone on such a journey through literature.

I've just fine. If you had to pick one book out of the five that you've thought today as a favourite, which ought to be a wife. I'll say just because it's sitting right next to me, all about love by the old hugs, because I think that's the one that I've revisited the most in the past few years. It's hard. It's an impossible to...

Yeah, it's actually, I mean, it's quite bad of us as we love books, those big bookheads, to make you choose five. When we all know, there are hundreds of books that make of the women. But it's been amazing. amazing to hear about how these five have shaped you into year about your life came in there. And maybe if you can get you back, you can bring another five. Great.

Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.