Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep23: Bookshelfie: Anita Rani

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Award-winning broadcaster Anita Rani tells Vick about finding a new confidence in her 40s, taking Woman's Hour to Glastonbury and why she needed to write her own story.  Well known as one of the lead presenters on BBC One’s Countryfile, and a range of shows for both Channel 4 and the BBC, Anita has covered topics from family budgets and waste plastic, to Bollywood and the Partition of India. Anita is also a familiar voice on radio, having worked for the BBC Asian Network and Radio 6 Music and is now the host of BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour alongside Emma Barnett. Alongside her broadcasting work, Anita is a successful writer, publishing her Sunday Times bestselling memoir The Right Sort of Girl back in 2021 - and has recently branched out into fiction, with her first novel Baby Does a Runner now out. Anita’s book choices are: ** Sophia: Princess, Suffragette, Revolutionary by Anita Anand  ** Somebody Loves You by Mona Arshi ** Pessimism is for Lightweights by Salena Godden  ** How to Be a Woman by Caitlin Moran ** Wahala by Nikki May Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

I always get into Uber's and ask them to pull up Radio 4 on. And it's always woman's out and it's always an Asian taxi driver and they're always talking about vaginas. And I'm just dying in the back. I'm sorry. And then I thought, and finally it will be me. And now I will be the voice talking to have vaginas. And I love it.

With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices, and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope, and I'm your host for Season 6 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction, to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. Hello, now you might notice that our sound is a little fuzzy to do.

Apologies, we had a little technical mishap, but Anita and my conversation was too good not to share, so I really hope you'll forgive the slight tininess on my side. Enjoy. I'm thrilled to be joined on this week's episode of Bookshelfy by none other than award-winning broadcaster Anita Rani, well known as one of the lead presenters on BBC One's Country File and a range of shows both Channel 4 and the BBC covering topics from family budgets and waste plastic to Bollywood and the BBC. the partition of India. Anita is also a familiar voice on radio, having worked for the BBC Asian network and Radio 6 music, and is now the host of BBC Radio 4's Woman's Hour alongside Emma Barnett. Alongside her broadcasting work, Anita is a successful writer, publishing her Sunday Times best-selling

memoir, The Right Sort of Girl, back in 2021, and has recently branched out into fiction with her first novel, Baby Does a Runner, out now. How often do you get to read? I mean a lot because I have to for work, which is a sound thing to say really, but it's also a blooming joyful position to be in, yeah, woman's hour, not just read for work,

but read amazing books for work. For pleasure these days? Not as much as I'd like to. I mean, I've had quite a mad year with one thing and another writing, but Sundays, and just before bed, actually, I do like to read half an hour to wind down. So if it's not for work, what sort of books do you gravitate?

What's to wind down? I'm not somebody who kind of just falls in love with one genre. I'll just pick up all sorts of stuff and just dip in and out. One of those people who kind of goes through phases of buying books thinking, oh, I'll read that because it'll make me seem clever. And then read like the first chapter and then it just sits there. It's like actually what I really fancy is a thriller. Yeah, what a page sooner right?

Exactly. Give me something that's going to make me fall in love and make me we we weep. But you know, the truth is I did not grow up in a household full of books. My mum and dad were really busy running a factory and me and my brother used to get taken to the factory after school. And then they didn't read to us. My school was amazing. My mum and dad were just too busy. What they did was tell us stories.

My mum would tell me epic tales before bed and sing to me. But books were not read to us, but my school was amazing. And my English teacher, particularly my sort of GCSE and A-level English teacher was my favourite. were a teacher. She's pretty much the end teacher that liked me. Or should I say, tolerated me. And madly enough, three days ago, I just started the sort of tour, pressed off the novel that I'm here to pro my English teacher was at the Bradford Lit Fest. I didn't know when she came up to me at the end of the at the end of my talk. And her husband said, there's someone here to see you. It's Mrs. Bird. And we both burst into tears. And she hugged me and cried and cried and cried and cried.

we're crying now and just thinking about it. And you describe the emotion. Yeah, just with her, to be seen. Yeah. Just to be seen. I think, you know, when, I mean, school was amazing and I loved it, but it was also really difficult. And like I made a joke about her being the only teacher that tolerated me.

But yeah, she really was. She was just kind and encouraging and open-hearted. And I just thought she sees something that no one else sees. And it only takes one person. And that's why teachers are amazing teachers. Teachers are incredible. You do a great job. We love you.

Or that novel that you're clutching. Yeah. The hard coffee. Oh, baby does a runner. We'll talk about it in just a moment, but we're also going to talk about that journey you've taken through books, the books that have shaped you that have made you. Who you are in your first book, Shelfare book,

is Sophia, Princess Suffragette, Revolutionary by Anita Anand. A journalist and BBC presenter, rings the light the extraordinary story of Sophia Dilip Singh, a woman born into Richards, who becomes an avid campaigner for women's suffrage. meticulously researched and passionately written. This enthralling story of the rise of women and the fall of empire introduced an extraordinary individual and her part in the defining moments of recent British and Indian history. How can you pick this one?

Because growing up in the UK, you just don't know history. We really know much history other than that's been chosen for us. Yeah. So I was thinking about how do I phrase this all like the last two days. my history has been whitewashed, yeah. And that's not just unfair on me because I've been denied my history. It's unfair on everybody.

Also, it's a lie. You know, we're not being told the truth about what happened. And so on many, many, many levels, we're all being kept in the dark and ignorant. And once you realize the truth, or whatever that means, or kind of understand that's so much more happening,

something explodes inside you. So I've done two things. I went on this incredible journey and filmed by Hooggi think you are, she's light-changing, like absolutely life-changing because it connected me to my ancestry, connecting me to the women of my past, and told me what actually happened to those women and it fundamentally changed who I am in that moment. You see it happening on TV. You see the moment it happens where something in my gut just explodes and it all comes out. And from that moment, I feel like I've been on a journey that's actually directly led to me writing this story.

but then when I picked up Sophia by Anita Anand Yes it's an A she's Anita is amazing And you know if anybody wants another podcast recommendation I'm going to give her a shout to her because she does a brilliant history podcast called Empire with William Dalwimple So if you are interested in colonial history Sickle-Sat and Indian history then that's an amazing podcast But yeah she wrote a book about this princess called Sophia

Whose father was the last Maharaja of Punjab I am Punjabi it's a northern state in India the last state to be annexed by the British. And it's where the Kohinu Diamond was. So Maharaja Beliep Singh, his father, Ranjit Singh, the great warrior king who presided the king of this whole region that was vast, used to wear the Kohinu Diamond on his arm. I know, so romantic, just thinking he ran it, right?

He was quite ugly, he had one eye. And he had many, many, many wives, lots of sons. But his last wife was the daughter. I hope I'm getting this right, Anita. because this is from memory, I read it when it first came out, was the daughter of, I think he was the man who looked after the horses, so she wasn't noble, and she was much, much younger than him, and she had his youngest son.

And when Maharaja Delip Singh died, the British kind of saw their opportunity to take over and annex this great state of Punjab. And this little boy, it's an amazing story, I'm not going to give it away because you need to read the book, but all the other sons tried to get the throne, It's like proper Game of Thrones situation. But I'll weirdly die in strange circumstances.

You're also trying to kill each other off or whatever. It's a battle for the throne. Until there is just the son of the last wife, the lowly born daughter of the horse guy. And his son is just a little child. And she says, fine, he's going to set on the throne, but I'm going to be the sort of queen mother. And I'm going to, so she's sort of protecting her son.

Anyway, the British do what they do best. and they basically get her prime minister to stab, basically get Indians to stab each other in the back. And they imprison her. So the queen is imprisoned, and they take the child to slown the king, and they give him to a Scottish couple who are Christians, who eventually convict to Christianity.

And then as a nine-year-old, he's brought to the UK. And he's made the godson of Queen Victoria. and he's brought up as a noble kind of exosic Indian prince in the court of Queen Victoria, and he has four children, and one of them is Princess Sophia. And they are born in Britain. She's half Indian, so she's brown. And she has this incredible story, and she eventually becomes a suffragette.

And I had no idea. Yeah, no, because when I saw Princess Suffragette Revolutionary, they're not three words that I would at all. associate and knowing that this was a story that incorporated Indian history. Exactly. I was plagued back. I think there's loads of these stories that exist of people being brought to the UK and kind of living here and having children.

And it's like I said, we just didn't know. So thank goodness, Anita Rund wrote it. And then when I read it, I think, you know, it's so simple, isn't it? Someone who looks like you, who is just so part of British establishment, but you've had no idea. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. It feels so, yeah, mobile.

like mobilising exactly and links and directly to you. And then you're like, well, why doesn't anyone else know this? And where does she in all the films and all the literature? And the tragedy is, you know, he was never, her father was never allowed to go back and reclaim his throne. And, you know, it's a very tragic ending. And none of the four children ever had any children. And so their line has ended.

And there is a bit in the book that says that it was done on purpose. You know, there was a conscious effort to stop this line so that they can never reclaim the throne of the great Punjab. Devastating story. cruel, so cruel, but this is a very empowering book. And so Sophia had to be on the list because, yeah, very important. And as you said, history has not been represented.

And you mentioned a little earlier about being seen at school. Did you ever feel represented by stories? Not really, no. But yes, here's the thing about stories. I was able to see the universal, right? Because nobody looked like me growing up. There was no Asian girls on TV, apart from girls. good old Mira Sayal when she popped up when I was a teenager and changed the game.

And thanks Mira. There's a generation of us who are not accountants because of you. But no, but you kind of find, you know, Pippi Longstocking. Bloody loved her. She was my girl, you know, with her monkey as a mate and her pigtails and a rebellious nature. So I think when your children, you don't need to, I mean, you do need to see yourself, but I always think, I wonder why people find it difficult to relate to stories of women of colour because I am able to relate to stories of women of all backgrounds, right?

Because I can see the universal. So if I can do it, everyone should be able to see it, right? So I remember when there was an up for about Hermione, Harry Potter being played by a black actress in the state. And I remember being so confused because I, when I was reading it as a child, I'd always thought, I know, I'm exactly like her. Yeah. I never even thought twice about the fact that I was exactly.

exactly like her. In your memoir, I need to, the right sort of girl, you include lessons for your younger self, including freedom is complicated. Your anger is legitimate. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about these sections, why are you going to include them? Yeah, because freedom is complicated and girls. Your anger is legitimate.

Because when I wrote the memoir, it was an amazing process. And then I wrote it during lockdown and kind of sitting with your childhood, Tim. It's quite an exercise to do, thinking about why you are who you are, People often ask, how is it that you as a brown woman from the north, you're in this space? How have you managed to get there? And it's a question that's asked a lot. And I've never really thought about how. And so went on this journey to write the memoir.

I knew exactly why I was writing it. I'll tell you the story, actually. So basically, when the Obama's first came to the UK, that first visit, I remember watching the news. And Michelle Obama was in a school in Islington. and she was sitting in the round with a group of girls who were all black and she looked at them all and said I am you

oh it's gonna have you cry to say thank you my minute and I'm just seeing her and when she went on her to come into her ear and it obviously like a rock star I was sending out the other two I remember sitting there and the whole road that's just into the end I felt like my God I've needed this I needed to hear that

yeah absolutely and it made me really well up and it makes me well now thinking about it And I remember thinking, I think people see success and think you've had some sort of privilege to get there and that I couldn't possibly do it myself. You know, Vic hopes there because, you know, she's something different to me. You know, I can never do it or whatever. So I needed to write this for all those kids and say to them, I am you and I get it. Because I came from, yeah, and here's all the things that I overcame. These all the things.

Yeah, I see you. And sometimes we need to take stock. hold on to those things because you can't forget as you continue on your journey and sometimes you just need to remind whether there's a reminder from someone else a reminder that you're giving yourself exactly and so that's why and then my my sort of device was to write this memoir to my 16 year old self and the reason I did that is so that I couldn't bullshit because you can't bullshit your 16 year old self because she's living it you can't make it up because she's living it and breathing it so you need to address whatever it is she's going through and that's why

freedom is complicated because when you are, certainly for me, being a Punjabi Yorkshire ass in the grew up in the 80s and 90s, you know, there was definitely a lot of complications about, you know, before I've even stepped out into the world where there's huge expectations or not, I don't even know if people have expectations of me. I think don't even think people see brown women, to be honest, or at least don't see us in a full capacity, even in a very binary way. But you have to overcome the complicated issue of being born into a South Asian family. So I start by saying, you know, when I was born, my grandma said we don't celebrate girls. So before I've even opened my mouth, the minute I was born, no mind anything else, you didn't do anything.

She has a vagina. Oh, uh-oh. Oh, dear. What are we going to do with her? So, yeah, so I needed to just talk. Just needed to get it all out, get it off my chest. And I got permission from a man. And she said to do her, because obviously, you know, it's like, I'm going to write a memoir. You might future. She said, write it for me, say all the things I could never say and, you know, go for it. So, and then anger is legitimate because we are constantly told that we're not to be angry, right? It's like, oh, no, don't be angry. And, you know, we know all the tropes, particularly for a black woman, you know,

and you're all the angry black woman trope and all the rest of it. And see, you know, for one a minute, so I just really needed to sit there and just express that I am angry and I'm allowed to be angry. And it's good. Rimming with multi-layered carry. This debut novel from acclaimed poet Mona Arshi revolves around Ruby, a small girl who, coping with her mother's increasing mental illness, decides to stop speaking. The book sensitively and beautifully explores how and why we refuse to tell the stories that shape us. How did this story shape you?

Oh my God. Mona Arshi, I bow down at your beautiful feet as she's next level. So if my book is like this, me sort of ranting, that, that, that. Mona's is like, ah, a nightingale. So me she's a poet. Yeah. It took my breath away. I could not believe what I was reading.

Just the wet, her ability to express so much with so few words. I am in awe of, first of all, her writing and beauty of her writing. And pain she manages to express. And the fact that her main character doesn't speak, it's just unbelievable. and you don't it's one of those books where I don't want to give it away I just think everyone should read it you you can't believe what's what's unfolding as you turn the page and it is about mental health and it is about you know silence and

observation and it's about this little girl and the complications of growing up with a mother with mental health issues and also being a little brown girl in the world and her older sister who's also very complicated and about abuse and And these are things I just never spoken about. But she does it so magnificent. So it really, really took my breath away. And also, you know, finally, I'm picking up books by amazing, you have Asian women

who are writing these stories. Like, lately we are telling stories. And that's just joyful. Tells me about your transition from writing a memoir to writing your work of fiction. I love writing. I've always loved writing, which is why Mrs. Bird was such a powerful moment.

The memoir, okay, you'll get this. It's the first space in my life where I have complete creative control. You know, no one's telling me there's no producers, there's no directors, it's not. I'm not waiting for someone to say you've got the gig or you. Usually you haven't got the, oh, that's your story as well. That's my story. And, yeah, lots of people, half other people like their stories. But there was just no way I wasn't going to write it.

This is truly your story. Yeah, it's my story, but also it's my tone of voice. Yeah. And I got it also, I just love that solitary feeling. I love getting up early. I can't do 4 a.m. I know there's a 4 a.m. crew out there that love doing a 4 a.m. wake up. But fine.

I do quite like getting up when everything else is quiet and doing a couple of hours and just letting it come out. What a special space and time that is. Yeah. It's magic. Cup of tea. Yeah. Hot water firms, cup of tea.

And then just seeing what comes out. And it, yeah, I just loved it. Then it's like, yeah, because I want to write another. I love to write another. Yeah, bring it on. And then he sat down and you're like, oh my God. What was I thinking when I said yes? But sometimes life offers you amazing opportunities.

You've just got to take them having you. I mean, that's just generally the way. I'm sure you live the same way. And I've always fancied my hanging off of, you know. And it was the story I had to tell. Had to tell the story. I had to tell a baby story. I had to create her.

And these women, there's lots of women in it. And they all live. They're very real in my head. So I've just had these characters talking to me for a while. And so it was just amazing. loved it, but I don't ask me how and when I wrote it, because I can't even tell you trains, hotels, travelling a lot for work. Hotels are amazing to write in because there's no distraction.

You don't have to get up and put a wash on. You don't have to load of dish, Georgia. It's actually ideal. Brilliant. Your protagonist, baby, has to deal with a mother and her very... And do you. You said lots of women in this story, constantly asking her when she's going to settle death.

I know this is a piece of fiction. It's another bit of how much of your experience did you draw from? I think there's going to be a lot of Asian women who are going to relate to this. I'm possibly wider than that. If you come from a community or a culture where it's expected of you to settle down at some point, yeah, I mean, the anti-network or the Illuminante is their business to know your business. Yeah, they're on her case. So she's 35 and she turns 36 at the beginning of the book.

And she very much tells her mum that she doesn't want a birthday party, but she'd quite like to go home and see her mum and a granny. She lives with her mum and a granny. And she turns up, probably enough she's from Bradford. She walks up the cul-de-sat where she grew up. And there's a lot of cars parked outside the house. And there's a big rowdy, Punjabi sweat-fest of a birthday party happening. And she's accosted, cornered the pincers move by the aunties

who just want to know everything about her life. But fundamentally, when you're getting married. because, of course, a woman can't just be happy being on her own. And also your value is equated to whether you're married and whether you have children and all of that. So I explore that. And it's about baby trying to find her identity. We meet her at the beginning and she's really in sort of a very unsettled state. She's in a place of crisis.

She's left Bradford. She's moved to the big city of Manchester. She's living her life. She's bought herself a little flat. She works in marketing. And she's given 10 years of a life. 10 years of the liver to marketing. And she just never gets the promotions.

And she's just baffled by how these really average white men keep getting promotions over her. And how the confidence to just walk around like they own the planet. And she just feels like she's hit a bit of a brick wall. And then you see her in her workspace. You see her in her home life and her next door neighbors who are gay best friends. And she's got like, you know, the party girl. She loves a drink. and then you see her at home in her home environment with her family

and it's about you know how we kind of what we were talking about you know turn ourselves down and dial ourselves up but essentially she doesn't know what the hell's going on because she's 36 and yeah she's single you described a very very familiar yes yep setting i feel like looking around the room there's one two people I'm all of smiling and nodding yet but it's a setting that I have so much affectionful. It's a character that I find familiar because there's a lot of love

for that part of ourselves. Yeah. And yeah, it's my job, I work, but divine our identity. It's something that I love to you shouted about. I love to be able to pick of a book and feel like, I guess there's a validation in that. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I just wanted to create a character that doesn't exist in fiction. Yeah. And the thing is, when you're, you're not allowed to be flawed. I had this conversation with my brother, when I was writing the memoir and he was like, Anita, I've been allowed to fail over and over and again.

I haven't, there's no space in my life to fail. You know what? You know, I've got to just turn up, nail it, do the job. Or whatever it is, it could be home life, and it doesn't have to be work. And she still does that. She's amazing. Baby does turn up and is brilliant at work. I just needed to, I wanted to just paint the picture of a South Asian woman who is multifacitive,

who isn't just clever. and polite and does everything the right way, which is what people I think often see. I think I just wanted to have a bit of a messy life and be figuring things out. For her to be allowed to be multidimensional and multifaceted is so important because that's then what means that any little girl, any little girl from a South Asian background looking at the book can say, okay, I'm that bit, I've got a bit of that bit and that bit. It can speak to more and more girls who then realise their story is valid. It's a fair of a story to tell.

maybe one day they will be writing. Just do it. Do it. All of you dreaming of it. Just do it. You need your stories. Please do it. Bayleys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out Baileys.com for our own. her favourite Bailey's recipes. Hi, I'm Sam Baker and welcome to The Shift,

the podcast that aims to tell the no-holds-barred truth about being a woman post-40. I started the shift because I was so tired of the absence of older women's voices. Where had all the women over 40 gone? I mean, seriously, if you want to walk about in your pyjamas for the rest of your life, we're invisible. Each episode, I speak to an inspiring woman about her shift.

I feel very strong and think I genuinely don't care what anybody thinks of me. Join me every Tuesday, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Your third book, Shelby Volcano is pessimism, A is for Lightweights by Selena Goddem. 30 pieces of courage and resistance. These poems are written for the women's march, poems that salute peaceful protest, poems on sexism, on racism,

on class, discrimination, poverty and homelessness, immigration and identity, all exceptionally pertinent issues then and now, and I'm sure will be for a long time. Tell us about when you read this book. Selena Godden. Oh my God. Have you ever met her? No, I haven't.

She is mighty. Okay. I'm just getting emotional thinking about her. She's a very special human being. They don't make them quite like Selena. She's unbelievable. And yeah, when I read this, because, you know, it's like,

I wish I had a copy in my hands because there's so much I want to kind of pick out from it. And I can't remember off the top of my heads, but it's almost like, just the title says it all, pessimism, it's for lightweights, you know. It's that stepping into your joy. I met her quite a few years ago in Bethnal Green, York Hall. There was an event, a poetry event on, and she was performing alongside loads of other amazing people. Irvin Welsh was on the stay.

Oh, wow. Riz Ahmed. And I remember Selena getting up and I was just like, who is? Shea. Who is that? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then we had to drink afterwards.

And her memoir just come out immediately. went off and read it, needed to know everything about this woman. Like, who, how? What made her? Who is she? And her writing is incredible. And then, yeah, she actually came on woman's hour to talk about this book of poetry. Afterwards, you know, you have a debrief afterwards, and there wasn't a woman in the office who wasn't just like, we love Selena. We want to go for a drink with her. We want to be in her company.

just some people just have the capacity to write and it's so meaningful and so truthful and so uplifting and you know sometimes you can get really blooming down and depressed and I'm a joyful person bit you know I know it right I know it some people are just really miserable and also we're a country that likes a bit of a moan yeah we love a moan

but I mean I don't know like life is so precious you've only got a very short amount of time really trying to have a nice one. Yeah. Really try to enjoy it. And so, you know, based on the conversation we've been having and all that, like, there's some, lots of people ask me this about younger women ask me when they do come to me and say, look, I'm having a really tough time at work, whatever it is, can you give me any advice? And I always say now, you need to retain your joy to find your joy, you don't let them sap your joy from you because that is really out of order. And the only way to do that is by finding your crew. Who are the people that you can turn to who are

going to just pick you up and go. We see you, you're all right. Come on. Get back in there and do what you got to do. And if you haven't got that person, then get this book. Selina will be that person through her words. There's an amazing poem called Courage is a muscle. I mean, all of them. All of them. Yeah. So she is, she just brings the joy and lifts you. She's a lifter and her words are magnificent. Yeah, I just can't. I just want to, everything. I can't wait to see what she does next. think you're a lifter, Anita. I genuinely do. Every time I've talked to you,

whatever I've been feeling, I felt just a little bit more confident, a little bit more sure of myself, and then my joy comes, you know? Yeah. I just need to sometimes take a breath, and you're an encourager of taking a breath. And then remembering who the fuck you are.

Yeah, I never forget, yeah, because you sometimes do. And I read an interview that you did with women in home quite recently. I think women get better with age. Yes. the more confident you become, the less you give a shit, the more spectacular you are. I love this because I know what you mean, that sort of being sure of yourself and then feeling really spectacular because of it. Have you found your confidence increasing with age? And how has that sort of manifested itself?

Yeah, 100%. Like, I've decided, Vic, whatever, whatever comes out of my mouth has to be truthful and meaningful. I think, you know, been working in this wonderful, strange industry for quite a long time now. I don't want to date myself, but anyway, you know, over 20 years. And it's been a real journey and a real process. And now finally, I feel like I've got to a place.

This sounds word to say, but almost like the place where it's like, all right, let's go. Not the place, just almost like the start. It's like now I'm like, all right, finally I've got to the baseline where I'm like, come on, let's slow. let's really see what this is all about. And maybe it is hitting 45. It feels like a really significant age to be a woman.

Like someone said to me when I was turning 40, the woman you are at 40 to the woman you are at 50 is completely different. I can just wait, just wait to see what happens. I was like, what? And I've got to 45 and I'm like, yeah, this is wild. This is amazing. And it's almost like this urgency where, I don't know, you feel confident, you've worked hard to get to where you are.

and you know that you're what you're capable of. I used to walk into meetings with extreme gratitude. Like, thank you, thank you so much. I'm going to doffing my cap and my shoulders are up here and my eyes are wide. I'm like, oh my God, like, who was that person? Now I'm like, yeah, just sitting in a room where I'm just going to look opposite you and say, yeah, come on then. I know what I'm good for. Do you know what I'm good for?

What are we doing? And yeah, and I just feel, I don't know, I can't even, it's not even tangible. There's just something inside me. I'm still in the process of it. Feel sexier as well. Now I'm like, yeah, I want to wear that dress that Vicks got on. I do not care what anyone think. Amazing.

I wish I'd felt that young when I was younger. I really do. But it's okay. Everyone's journey is its journey. But yes, it is a wonderful, liberating place to be. And I don't care either. I really don't. But, I mean, obviously we do a little bit.

You want me able to like the thing that you're making because you're making it out of the place of love. Like, I want you to enjoy it. Yeah. Can you in the media? Like this podcast. Obviously, I care what people think. I want to be listening.

I care what you think because I want you to enjoy the chats and the books. But it comes from a different play. Yes. Yeah, I think. Yeah, definitely. And yeah, it just feels really, really great and important. And important because there's work to be done. You know, I feel like I've got to this place.

And what do I do with this? What do I do with this privilege? But no, it's like changing the landscape for the next generation, right? I took, well, I was out of Glastonbury. I am so. so happy to see you at the helm of Women's Hour. Talk to me quickly about that sort of trajectory, that the journey to that point through broadcasting. I had no idea that that was going to ever come up. Right. It wasn't a goal that you know. No, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. I mean, of us, it was just wasn't even on the agenda. I never even thought that it would be part of my journey at all. Listen to Woman's Al, the whole life. And just thought Radio 4, Women's Hour in us a different space. And then, yeah, it kind of just came out of the blue, really. The Friday show was a, up and the application process.

They had an application process just for the Friday slot. And I think I was the last person to apply. And I just remember writing that, I always get into Uber's and ask them to pull up Radio 4 on. And it's always women's out and it's always an Asian taxi driver and they're always talking about vaginas. And I'm just dying in the back. I'm sorry.

And then I thought, and finally it will be me. And now I will be the boys talking to have vaginas. and I love it and honestly I was petrified absolutely petrified when I first got the job and then had a moment of clarity where I thought they've given you it because they want you

to be you so just be you so yeah we know we're talking about confidence when I got back I was like oh my God and now oh my God I love it is the biggest buzz I get to interview with the most amazing woman

on the planet And the stories, the privilege of hearing those stories and, you know, people opening up their hearts and the listeners who get in touch and share their stories, all of it. I mean, I'm still only two years in, but it's wild. I love it. Talking about vaginas with Green Bond, too. Or fourth book, Shelby Book, which is How to Be a Woman by Catlin Moran, the multi-award-winning, honest and witty memoir, written with the intention of making feminism more accessible for women in doing so, Katlin, shares the stories of her life. struggles from being bullied at the age of 13 for her and a lack of motherly guidance from puberty to a hilarious, lately rant about the joys of pubic hair.

Katlyn makes a point of dispelling the stereotype that all feminists are angry man haters and addresses the slaughter issues within the home that feminism wants to pick. How can me pick this one? I have to give a shout to Katlyn Moran. There's a direct link between that memoir, me reading that, to fast forward about 14 years to meet writing your own memoir. I mean, A, she's amazing. But you're bloody amazing.

Look, Vick's even got a docks on, so you're in the room with us, Kathleen. So true, you know. She's here. It's, yeah, what a signature. I know. She's a badass. Just her way with words and also her style. It's like she's sitting in the room with you.

And she catches you off guard where you're just reading it and then she'll just throw in a comment that makes you laugh. out loud, on a train, like weep, weep with laughter. She's like, did she just say that? When I read it, I remember thinking, my God, she's just saying it. I remember feeling. I'm always amazed by, traditionally have been amazed by people who have the capacity to have their shame.

Because my shame has been so, so shameful. But I also remember thinking, wow, is it because she is white that she's able to do this? That you can just talk about sex and parents. Yeah, because that is my experience, because I was never able to do it. My mates were all able to just stand around and I used to skeleton the periphery of their conversations. Even with my own friends, I felt shameful talking about anything and vaguely, you know, to do with women. So it felt so incredible reading her book where she just put it all out there. And once she did that, it gives everyone else permission to just talk about it, doesn't it?

And so there is a reason actually so it is a proper shout out, respect. Thank you, Kathleen, because it was also fast forward the reason I was then able to say why maybe I need to wait about the brown girl experience. I know in a recent interview you called yourself a born feminist. Yeah.

I'd have to know what kind of role feminism has played in your life. Do you have like any memories of looking around the world and thinking I would like to see more equality here? Yeah, maybe. I think growing up, just realising that the boys have it much easier. But then you don't realize you're a feminist.

What, you kind of, I remember wanting to be a boy when I was little, but not in the kind of I want to actually be able to, but just wishing. Like, the boys have it so much easier. Like, my mum would, it would be me that would be dragged in for various reasons to not play outside, whether it's, don't go in the sun. My brother was never told to not go in the sun. It's colourism. Yes, of course, but it doesn't apply to the boy.

Doesn't apply to the boys. He can do what he like. Or, you know, just all of them. And I just, yeah, hated it. Absolutely hated it. But it gave me something to rebel against. But also sort of didn't lean into my femininity, didn't want to be a girly girl. So would rock dot martyrs still do to the state?

And black nail vanish. And yeah, it was just, so there was a fire in my belly that I wanted something more and I wanted something different. And that's why I think South Asia women are one of the most successful demographics in this country because we realize we're not going to get handed

everything on a silver platter like the little prince, you know, and born into the same household. So we have to go out and do something for ourselves. So, yeah, you go out there and strive so that you have some power, I guess. On wanting something different, you've said in the past that you didn't fit in. And I think often as a kid, you do really want to fit, but it's nice to reframe that as actually standing out. How have you used standing out to your advantage? I think I've always been quite confident. I think that is something that I've just had. So I didn't really, it's not that I wanted to stand out.

I didn't care about fitting in. I've really never cared about fitting in. Even though, you know, obviously there's spaces where you want to fit in, work being one of them, where you kind of dial yourself down. But actually, I've never compared myself to anybody, and I've never looked at anyone and thought, how I've been just like her. Part from Roshi Murphy and Salma Hayek,

I want to be them, both of them. I want to be their love child, please. Weird. Okay, Rosheen's meant to be coming on Radio 4 in a couple of weeks, I think. I think her agents on the phone canceling right now. Don't go anywhere near that weird woman. Yeah, so, yeah, standing out. It's good.

It's good. In fact, you know what? Just more, I didn't do it enough. Didn't do enough. I would implore the next generation, just stand out. Yeah. Be you. Because actually they need you to be you.

Don't take your edges off. Don't do what I did, which was shave off your edges, because then you wake up at 45 and you, realize oh my god who the hell was there um so yeah just just stand out stand out more you will regrow your edges this is the thing but you know what if you learn from an early age that you don't need to show them yeah it's got even more life to enjoy them yeah definitely absolutely yeah it's time to talk about your fifth and finally which is the brute wahler by niki may he's wicked yeah it is i read this a couple of years ago it was just really pleasantly

surprise it's sort picked up by chance uh it's It's about Ronka, Simeon Boo, who are three mixed-race friends living in London. They have the gift of two cultures. They're Nigerian and English. Like myself. They navigate. Yeah. They navigate frustrated hopes and thwarted love until a single, terrible act threatens to spin their lives out of control.

Fearlessly political about class, colorism and clones. This spellbinding debut is for anyone who has ever cherished friendship. You make a, I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. Read it. Couldn't put it down. And I thought, this is what I want to read.

I want to read stories about all women. And just that it isn't about them being Niger. It is just insidate or that's who they are, you know. And it's also about who's writing those stories. And it was Nicky May's debut, I think. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And I just thought, what a badass here.

Good on you, girl. And I interviewed her and she said, you know, I wanted to represent black women in a way that they haven't been represented. before and they're middle class successful. Can you believe it? Yeah. When do you see that? I don't. I mean, things are changing now and I think we're really acutely aware that we need to tell all stories, but also who is telling the stories. That's the important thing. And so, you know, I think, again, there's a lot of books here that I'm going to, you know, give shout sounds to because it made me think that there is space for a story about a brown girl as well who, it was

multifaceted and maybe there's a story that I could tell. And so, yeah, I absolutely enjoyed it and the food. In fact, I said to Nikki did say, I said to Nicky, let's go for lunch. I need to go to a Nigerian restaurant with you and eat because the, oh, I remember being very hungry weeding it. It's a very visceral. Yes. The descriptions are so palpable.

They fizz off the pay and it just is delicious, especially when you recognize these dishes. It's like this is like my mom's cooking. I mean, I loved it. I loved reading it. I loved the hairstyle. I love just a really great book that he takes you into another world. You fall in love with the characters. You feel like you're their fourth friend.

You feel that you're sitting with them when they're going through the, you know, when they're having their lunch or whatever that they meet up for. Yeah, and so I really like the style of writing and I wanted to eat the food so badly. Still do. Between being on the radio. on the telly, writing a memoir or also writing a piece of fiction. You are really using your platform

to make a positive impact to tell stories to help next generation know that their stories are worth telling and also to bring attention to important issues. Why are they important to you to be able to speak to other through whatever way? So someone asked me the other day

whether I always thought when I started working in TV that I was there to represent. Honestly, a big NEMON. When I left Bradford and came down the M1, all them moons ago, on horse and cat. I genuinely just thought, I'm off to that there, London,

to make something of myself, and nothing can stop me because the world's mind for the taking. And wanting to work in music, TV, I was ahead of my time. Worked at top of the pubs, works at the ozone, works as a music researcher. I did loads of stuff and then I just realized, ah, it's just a little bit harder for you, isn't it?

People don't see me the way I see myself. That's weird. My God, people see my ethnicity. Come on, before anything else. So that's okay. It's kind of your journey. It makes you, what, you know, makes you stronger and all of that. It's all good.

But now that I'm here, yeah, it's like I've got a proper purpose, definitely. And I think that started with making my who do you think you are. and the reaction to that. And people saying, how do we not know this story about partition? How do we not know? And my mates were like, it's because you told it

and people want to know. And I thought, okay, maybe. So then I wrote the memoir and that reaction was huge and now it feels like, yeah, I'm not representing. I'm just presenting as myself. And if that helps people,

then that's all good. It rings you think actually, doesn't it? Well, now that we're here, Let's do it. Yeah, and exactly the same as you. Like, you're just being yourself, but just by being you and being visible and being brilliant and just being you is inspiring.

It's really difficult, isn't it? Because of course you are representing, and of course, it's like another layer of stuff that we have to think about. Just wish it wasn't always on us to have to leave about everything. I'm going to make you think about one more. Yeah, come on there. If you've had to choose one book from the five that you've brought to, Did anyone tell you you'd have to do this?

No, I'm so sorry, I do apologize. Well, as your favourite, which would it be in white? Okay, so we've got Wahalavs, we've got how to be a woman, we've got pessimism, it's for lightweight, but somebody loves you. And do we have to Sophia Princess Subproject? Revolutionary. Yeah, Selena Godden. Is it?

Yeah, give me that. Pessimism is for lightweights because whatever you're feeling, you just delve into that and you're boosted. Sometimes with poetry, it's nice because you can. can dip in an hour as well. Yeah. When you need it, I might need that poem today

or that one's like a little pick and it. Yeah, and it's distilled. You know, I'm just in awe of poets and that distillation of words. It's a potent. Yeah. Like, oh my God, three words and they've just hit my heart.

Like a punch. They've stabbed me. Oh, magnificent. It has honestly been the best having you. I've loved it and you're amazing and this is spectacular and keep going. And best in that baby doesn't run. Thank you.

Yeah, it's out. Please, read it, buy it, and tell me what you think. So only if it's a good review, don't tell me if you think it sucks. I'm Vic Hope, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.