Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep24: Bookshelfie: Kit Kemp

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

Designer Kit Kemp MBE takes Vick on a literary journey from 1490 to 2022 and explains how she’s built her signature style, and her confidence.  Kit is a British interior designer and Founder and Creative Director of Firmdale Hotels and the Kit Kemp Design Studio. Kit’s signature style combines traditional elements with contemporary flair, resulting in spaces that are both inviting and visually striking. She is known for her blend of bold patterns, vibrant colours and carefully curated artwork and textiles; and for being a highly-respected champion of British art, craft and sculpture. Kit has won many awards including House & Garden's Hotel Designer of the Year and CN Traveller's Best Hotel in the World for Design.She’s also a published author of four books, including A Living Space and her latest book Design Secrets, which offers readers valuable inspiration and practical tips for bringing their own distinctive style into their spaces. Kit’s book choices are:  ** Precious Bane by Mary Webb ** The Lady and the Unicorn by Tracy Chevalier ** Wayward (Just Another Life to Live) by Vashti Bunyan ** Restoration by Rose Tremain ** The Secret Lives of Colour by Kassia St Clair Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. I always say that a room has to have five different things and that's colour, craft, character, curation

and what was the other thing? I don't know. I can't remember. I can't remember now the fifth thing. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world.

I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for season six of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. Kit Kemp, MBE is a British interior designer and founder and creative director of Firmdale Hotels and the Kit Kemp Design Studio. Kit's signature style combines traditional elements with contemporary flair, resulting in spaces that are both inviting and visually striking. She's known for her blend of bold patterns, vibrant colours and carefully curated artwork and textiles, and for being a highly respected champion of British art, craft and sculpture. Kit has won many awards, including House and Gardens Hotel Designer of the Year and CN Traveler's Best Hotel in the World for Design. She's also a published author of four books, including A Living Space and her latest book, Design Secrets, which offers readers valuable inspiration and practical tips for bringing their own distinctive style into their spaces.

And we're delighted to have her on the podcast. Welcome, Kit. Thank you. It's so lovely to have you with all of your books that you're bringing today in front of you. They're spread across our table. It feels very aesthetically pleasing. I'm always fascinated by the ways that we can incorporate books into the design of our spaces? That's something that's important to you. It's very important. And I know that some designers will look upon music. But for me, and to get to know a client or a different interior or space, it's all about the books. I think it tells so much about the character. And I think one wonderful thing about growing up is being able to afford a

hardback book. It is. Oh, you know what? It was like a dream to one day be able to have bookshelves with hardback books on them in your own house. Absolutely. You feel like you've made it. You've grown up. Yeah. It's true. What does your bookshelf look like in your own home?

Well, we love books. And in fact, I've got to make a space to make a door go through. And, of course, I come from a family who love books. My mother never had a bedside table. It was just books, one above the other. But we would never be allowed to put a cup of tea or rest anything on a book. To her, they were rather safe. And have you adopted that same sentiment towards the books that you have?

Not quite because as a designer we often use an ottoman and to put on the ottoman. There are lots of different books that go on the top and I'm afraid my mother would tell me off but I actually put cups of tea on them. You know what? I always think if a book's been well-fummed, if it's got ring marks where the coffee or the tea has been placed, it means it's been loved. Yes, that's true. And there are many loved books in our house. house. What sort of books do you gravitate towards? Well, I love books, pastoral books about the country. I love biographies, but actually at the end of the day, I actually adore a good yarn and a really good story. It doesn't matter whether it's historically way in the past or contemporary. And in fact, the five books that I've chosen range, I think, from 1499 up to

19 or to 2014. And you mentioned that your mother was a, you mentioned. And you mentioned that your mother was a big reader. Growing up, did you adopt that? Did she instill that love of reading in you in a young age? Very much so. She had a most beautiful voice, but so she read things beautifully to us as well. And I think she introduced me to my first favourite book, which I continue to read off and on right to this day. And the author was Mary Webb, who was, brought up in Shropshire and it's quite interesting because her books are actually written in dialect which could put you off to begin with but when you get into that lelting prose and the way that she writes so beautifully about the countryside and about the countryside of many years ago

maybe in the time of Waterloo you're completely drawn in well Mary Webb's precious bane is your first bookshelfy book that you've brought today Prudent son well was born with a cleft palate, her precious bane, for which she is persecuted as a witch by her superstitious neighbours in her Shropshire village. Hiding from daily ridicule, she takes refuge in the wild countryside and in her love of Kester Woodsieves, the weaver. As Kester gradually discerns Prue's true beauty, her brother Gideon is meanwhile tragically driven out of harmony with the natural world. So this is a book that you said you've read off and on. for your whole life pretty much. Yes.

Why do you love it so much? It's beside my bed and first of all it has really beautiful woodcuts in it by an artist called Norman Keppel. And they're in black and white and they're so descriptive and so simple at the same time. But I love Peru because she was born with this cleft palate and all she wants to do is to be accepted by everybody. But at every turn she's turned away. really, so her life is quite difficult. But I love the romance of Kester, who is her true love at the end of the day,

who's the weaver, and he goes from village to village so that when someone's going to get married, they have a weaving session in the house where all the local women come in and they sit and weave together. And then they're looking at Kester, who's the weaver and sort of secretly rather fancying him in a way. And Prue being so shy is always in the background. and worked so hard by her brother and a poor landscape. But she does learn to read and write, and Begaldi is the local wizard, and he has taught her to read and write.

But at the same time, he's doing extraordinary things like telling the local gentry that he can raise Venus. And raising Venus is he wanted his daughter to be the subject of that. And of course, she's Gideon's true love, and he won't allow her to do it. So Prue ends up. being this person that Begaldi uses. But it's so extraordinary the whole story.

There's so much pastoral simpleness, but superstition. And it's at a time where people almost never moved out of the village or the valley that they lived in. And so the fact that a crow flies overhead might mean 40 days of bad luck. Prudence, the main character in the book, is different, like you mentioned there, to others in her village and eventually founds power in the world. that difference, something that I think we can and should all celebrate. Did you ever feel like an outsider growing up? Were there any similarities between you reading that book at the age of 10 and prove this character on the pages that you just couldn't get enough of? Yes, she was always an

outsider. I suppose living outside a village and in the countryside as we did, you are on the outside, but also, you know, sort of growing up and having one daughter who's slightly disabled. And if you are on the outside, things can turn against you so quickly. And what you think are a happy, closed community suddenly can turn round and things can work against you. And this book is concerned with the power of the natural world, the beauty of it, but also the the impact of it. How do you stay in balance of nature and make time for it? I know you said you came today from South Cairn, so you're in London now, having come from

outside of a village. Where is your harmony with the natural world? Well, it's very difficult when you come to London and you stand in a park and you can hear the cars all the way around the edge of it. It takes a long time to get used to it. But for me, I had such destiny and I had such ambition. and a sort of arrogance that I had to get out of my village in a way to achieve what I wanted to achieve, really. When it comes to that ambition, that drive, that need to achieve something, where did it come from? Tell us about your journey into interior design. Well, I started off basically with an auctioneer to begin with.

So I was looking at scale and balance and people's junk and antiques and things like that. And then I worked for an architect. So I just made the tea and went around with a tape measure. Started at the bottom. But he was Polish, actually. And a real character, we'd go into the attic of a house. And he'd see some fungi like a mushroom. And he'd pick it up and stick it in his mouth and eat it.

And we'd think, oh, my God, he's going to die. And he'd say, ah, Mushlaki, the best mushroom. And he had come sort of via Siberia, during the war down through Palestine before he became an architect. So he was a man who lived with nature. And so I felt very much at home with him. And where did that creativity come from that has become such a cornerstone of your success? Was your family creative?

Maybe not so. Well, actually, my father was quite creative, actually. He was always inventing things that never quite came off. But I think you've either got it or you haven't got it. And it's going to creep out. know also, I think if you're brought up very much to your own devices in your own space, then you have that space in your head and that creativity. You're creating your own world. And your style is so unique, such beautiful rooms, spaces that you've created over the course

of your career. Where do you think that style comes from? We've talked about difference. We've talked about uniqueness. How does that then translate into your work? I think it's quite joyful. It's colourful. And most people seem to be afraid of colour, but it's colour, texture. I always say that a room has to have five different things, and that's colour, craft, character, curation. And what was the other thing? I don't know. I can't remember. I can't remember another fifth thing. And with all those things, if it's curated well, if it's got the colour, if it's got the character, if it's got the craft, it's going to speak for itself. And I like things that are homemade in a room. I don't want it to look as if it's absolutely professionally done and smooth and shiny so you sort of

slip to the floor from every surface. I love texture. Yeah. Maybe that fifth thing can just be that jeunise et cetera. That little thing that you have that no one else does that's maybe a bit weird, maybe a bit wonderful, but it's you. I love when you can tell a room. It's that person. Yeah, well, I love it. I mean, I love to see other people's interiors because I want to see their character. I want to see something that they've made themselves or something which is truly about them and that's nothing to do with, I mean, so many homes are so tasteful that they're totally unmemorable. That's so true.

Yeah, I mean, many would call my home a monument to miscellania. Big collector of junk. Love color, lots of clashing, but I like to think, I think we're on the same page. Good. Your second bookshelfy book kit is Tracy Chevalier's The Lady and the Unicorn. It's 1490, we said we're going right back. Paris and a shrewd French nobleman commissioned six lavish tapestries celebrating his rising status at court. He hires the charismatic, arrogant and sublimely talented Nicola des Anossoe to design them.

Nicolaoises creates havoc among the women in the house. The results change all their lives, lives that have been captured in the tapestries for those who know where to look. Can you tell us a bit about this book? Well, Tracy Chevalier, the author, I met her because she has done some work for fine cell work, which is, it's a charity which I've been involved with. But Tracy always, if you look at her books, they're always somewhere, something about textiles and things made by hand. But The Lady and the Unicorn is a book which I feel is her best. and it's talking about making these tapestries in Belgium

and the blind daughter, how he, Nicholas, is a sort of, you hear of a fam fatal, he's a sort of omfetal. And all the women fall for him. But at the same time, you're learning about what it was like to live at that time, what it was like to be an artist, to be a craftsman, to be a maker at that time.

And it's, you know, start on the first page and suddenly you're on page 100 before you even realize it. And that's the sign to me of the best sort of book. What is it that brings it so alive? What is it that makes it such a page turner? You're immediately drawn in by all the characters. They're completely authentic. And Nicholas is young and feisty, loving women. He absolutely adores women. Doesn't treat them particularly well. But at the same time, there's a goodness in there somewhere. And also, again, it's about learning his craft. He was actually a miniaturist in court

and why they chose him to do these huge lavish tapestries. He himself is surprised. But he is drawn into that occasion and in fact it's probably his very best work, which he sees through by going to Belgium and coming to the rescue of the wonderful blind daughter. And when they were making wode, you had to use a lot of urine actually,

which meant that the wode maker smelled terrible. And if you're blind, then your other senses really come to the fore. And they were making her marry him, this other man. And so good old Nicholas comes along and actually saves the day. We in wode, classic combination. Exactly. The sumptuousness and the sensorial nature of the way this is written. It really makes it so vivid, brings it off the page, like these textiles, like these textures.

And you're known for your rich, boldly patterned fabrics using the spaces you design, your colours. Have you always been interested in textiles? Always. It's always been my first love. And my rooms are brought together by textiles. But it's, I love actually tapestries. But in fact, I love tapestries before the needlepoint goes on. Because before they are drawn and it's like a huge. painting. And if you looked at the old tapestries that have numbers on them, and the numbers were

on all the different colours, because that was going to be the colour of the thread. And I always find that so fascinating. And if ever I can find what they would call old cartoons, they are the things that I would hang on the walls rather than the heavy tapestries themselves. Yeah, my grandma used to do tapestry. Did she? And just the way you just described, it really is very nostalgic. It takes me out, because I remember going into the living room, and she'd be, she'd have, she'd have drawn out on the fabric and the little numbers of what she was going to be doing in each section. I must have been so small a long time ago, but it's such an evocative image. It is.

It's just painted. And it keeps moving. All of these techniques and these styles will keep evolving. How do you stay inspired and continue to innovate in an industry that is constantly evolving? Where do you draw inspiration from? Well, I have been copied and I always think that's just, that's great. I don't mind because what it means is that I've got to go on and do something new. But in fact, there is always something new.

And that's what I love about also collaborating with others. And I always say that you shouldn't be, from the first moment, you should have a picture of what you're trying to achieve. But actually, your finished room, your finished space, your finished area should be a lot better than your original first idea because it's an organic path and along the way there will be things that come in, the excitement of it. So the finished piece is better than the original idea.

And over the last 10 years you've written four books, what made you want to try and distill your creative process into the written word in this way? And to sort of try and help others to find their own style? Well, because I think that we're always told what to do all the time. There's always this one way that you're meant to achieve. And also people with designer names, think it's okay if it's designed by a designer name. Well, I'm kind of anti-designer name, an anti-brand.

And I love that craftiness of it all. And craft was always the sort of little sister to art. And I love the way craft in families goes from generation to generation. So you get the grandfather has a potter, his wife is, his mother, his daughter, his sister, his brother-in-law. And you can make the same thing over and over. But if it is made by hand or not on a production line, it's always different. And it tells you so much about the hand of the craftsman who's making it. And to me, that's always been much more important than the glossiness of anything else. How did you find turning your hand to writing?

I love writing. And it was always something that I was actually better at at school than almost anything else because I was left-handed so quite clumsy. And so actually doing needlepoint and things like that was always much harder for me. and writing was always something which was so good. I had a wonderful teacher, Mrs. Beach, who ran away to Gretna Green at the age of 15 to marry her husband. So she was a great woman.

And, I mean, I knew her throughout my life. So she always used to sort of help me, but with writing was a good thing. But, you know, my books are coffee table books. They're not like the books that I've chosen today. Those are proper books. But your work tells a story, whether it is on the page or in the rooms. They each have their unique stories to tell. How can you explain how you approach storytelling through design?

Well, it's funny because I always try and get the character of the room that I'm trying to do. And we had to do something for the Wow House recently, which was in the design centre. And we decided that the character that owned it was called Mimi. and she was a hatmaker and she lived in an attic in Paris and she would get all the most fashionable women in Paris tromping up the stairs to come to her attic room. And as soon as you've created this feel within the room, which is almost like a curation in itself,

everything else becomes so much easier and flows. And I think a room does have to flow and it does have to tell a story and it does have to have the character of the person who's living within it. And the possibilities are endless because as with life itself, there are always more stories to tell. Exactly. And we change as well. And we change with a season. But I have to live with my rooms in the season. And then I know if it's a successful room that if it looks as great on a thundry day as it does in bright sunshine or in midwinter

or those gusty autumn days, then it's a success. Well, as there are always more stories to tell, we move on to your third book, Shelfy Book, which is Wayward, Just Another Life to Live by Vashti Bunyan. In 1968, English singer-songwriter Vashti Bunyan took to the road with a horse, wagon, dog, guitar, and her then partner. They made the long journey up the Outer Hebrides with romantic, idyllic notions, often coming up against harsh realities. Not simply a memoir, but also an emotional and explorative tale about finding purpose, living life, and making the decisions that work for your own life. Why did this book touch you? You came in and actually you showed it to everyone in the room

was like, oh, we wanted to see this. Why is it so special? I loved Vashti Banyan for the first time that I heard her. And she was going to be the next Marianne Faithful. And her manager was Andrew Lug Oldham, who was Marianne Faithful's manager. and her first song was written for her by Mick Jagger and Keith Richard. And it was a dismal failure.

Nobody bothered about her. And her life sort of went sort of downhill from there, where she finally left home and joined her boyfriend, who was an art student, and he was living in a tent under a tree. So they had no money. And they were looking through sort of hedge one day, and they saw this cart behind, so they climbed through the hedge. and it was an old baker's van

and they found I think someone called Alfie Ball who owned it and said well have you got a horse that goes with this cart and he said come back tomorrow morning so they came back to the next morning and there was Betsy this big round black bottom of this wonderful big cart horse and anyway they finally bought Betsy

and the baker's van and went to see his art teacher going over London Bridge and they couldn't get over how Betsy actually stopped at a red light, knew to go left around roundabouts and obviously they didn't really know how to drive a horse and cut, especially through London. Anyway, Betsy lost a shoe and they ended up going to a brewery in North London because that was the only place they knew where they would be able to change a shoe. And as they went in to see the blacksmith, he said, oh, that's Bess. I'd know Bess anywhere. I know those feet.

And Bess had been pulling at this sort of Baker's van and was about 20 years old. They didn't realize that. But luckily, she knew exactly what she was about. And they went to visit Donovan in Bedfordshire who lived in a place called Seagull's Rest. And he was starting a commune on an island off the Isle of Sky. And they decided, well, there was no other way, but they were going to get there by horse and cart. and so their journey started, which took about two years, I think. Yeah, I was going to say it's a long way.

It is by horse and cart. But she started off as being very fragile, sort of nearly having a nervous breakdown. But of course, suddenly on the road with absolutely nothing, no money, no resources, but looking after Bess and a dog called Blue, she became a much stronger and stronger woman. And I also have not only read for the book, but bought the audiobook. And she has such a wonderful voice. And right, so I think lots of people actually sort of acquire their personality.

They become somebody else for the sake of the book and they miss out bits and put bits in so that they sound how they want to be. I just felt with Vashti she was the real person. You've got to really know her and love her. And the funny thing is there's a huge gap of 30 years. And the records that she made were forgotten in the midst of time. But after about 30 years, she then decided to look herself up on the internet, you know, which you can do. You know, a little Google, yeah. And suddenly found out that she was a sort of cult sensation with her original LP that she had made.

And somebody in San Cremento had said, I wonder whatever happened to Vashti Banyan. And suddenly she started to try and find the original work. master of her music, a master tapes, etc. And her life was renewed. You speak with such passion about this book, about this story. It's a book about finding your own purpose, your freedom. How did it make you feel? Is this a book that tells a story that you relate to, finding that purpose, finding that freedom? Yes, she didn't find it easy. She wasn't accepted. She was trying to find herself in situations where she was trying to tow the line. She was trying to be the perfect wife or whatever. And at every turn, she felt that she wasn't in control. And it's a story of

how she brought that control finally into her life. And she was an individual. She never gave up. We so often give up on ideals, on things because it's easier to go in that direction. Vashti never did and I really respect her for that. What sort of challenges have you faced throughout your career? How have you overcome them? The thing is, I think it makes me a bit secretive because if I say what I really want to do, how I want to achieve it, everybody says, oh, you can't do that. So in a sense, you're kind of, you kind of do things in a sort of secretive way or in a

roundabout way. and I think actually I was quite argumentative and really difficult and probably quite unemployable. So that meant that you had to kind of go it on your own. So it's just finding your way through and doing things like that and then finding you've got a few camp followers along the way and achieving what you want to achieve. That tenacity though and that sticking to your guns, which can sometimes be manifested through arguments. and the like, it also is a strong point.

It's also an asset. Have you found it's worked in your favour? I mean, you wouldn't be where you were if it wasn't for those things. No, that's right. I mean, I think there are certain things where you say, I don't care what's happening on the outside. This is what I'm going to do.

And it's almost the same. With all of my work, actually, you've got to wait until the end. You've got to wait until the completion. You've got to have the trust in what you're trying to achieve and not have people halfway through saying, oh, you can't do that. That's not going to work.

That colour's no good. Oh, nobody's going to stay here. I mean, we've designed whole hotels, which are new builds. And in the process, you can sit in what would be the brasserie or the restaurant, and you can say to yourself, oh, my goodness, is anybody ever going to come? Is anybody going to want to have a meal in this room? Is anybody going to sleep in this bed?

And so you can have huge question marks about, what you're doing, but you don't, you just plow on on. That resolve and that vision. Just wait. You co-founded Firmdale hotels with your husband in the 1980s. What inspired you to do this? And how has your vision for the brand changed over the years? Well, nobody took small hotels seriously when Tim and I started.

And actually, Tim had his student accommodation when I met him. And which was great, actually, because they're fantastic barbecues every Friday night. It was all other students that were there. And we had a great old time. But, you know, we decided that we would sort of upgrade the properties. And we managed to get the freehold on one in Dorset Square, which was the site of the first Lord's cricket grounds. So immediately I had a lot of story that I could work on there.

And it just had 37 bedrooms and everybody said it was not going to work. And we approached, I think, 13 or 14 banks. And they all said, forget it, mate. And, you know, we finally found one. that didn't bless him. And so it started from there. It was rather like Topsy and just grew. Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction

by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out Baileys.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. Let's talk now about your fourth book that you brought today, which is Restoration by Rose Tremaine.

Feels quite apt, given what you were just speaking about. This is a dazzling tale of intrigue and rivalry set amidst the opulence of Stuart England from prolific women's prize-winning author. When a twist of fate delivers an ambitious young medical student to the court of King Charles II, Robert Merrivel rises quickly, soon finding favour with the king. But when he falls in love with one of the king's mistresses, he transgresses the one rule that will cast him out from his newfound paradise. What drew you to this book? I love restoration, but mainly because I love Rose Tremaine. She's a fearless and fiercely intelligent writer. There's nothing that she can't write about.

And if you look at the different books that she's written from sacred country through to the color, then to restoration. She is just extraordinary and the detail that she goes into. But I re-bought restoration more recently. And I was amazed that this story of Robert Merevel, you know, such a gorgeous name for such a sort of buffoon of a character full of human frailty. She said she wrote it as a sort of antidote to Thatcherism and that striving for richness. And at one point, I think they say that luxury is suffocating your vital flame, they say, to Robert Merrivel, which is said to him by Pierce, who's his long-time friend. And I love the fact that it's Charles II full of opulence, a king who is very obstinate, but loves craft and he loves people who do things well. and he inadvertently, purely by drinking too much wine and falling asleep and not doing anything, saves one of his King Charles Spaniels.

So he gets into the king's favour, but also he's a kind of buffoon. So he's there at the court and they all love him for his sort of excesses and he's no oil painting. But he has this gift actually of being a medical man and from the age of nine of sort of cutting up. frogs and things. He's always been fascinated by the anatomy of the human body. And in fact, it's that skill that at the end of the day saves him and brings him back into favour again. You talk about King Charles there being a huge fan of craft, of craftsmanship. In your latest book, a Living Space, there's a Meet the Maker section where you talk about some of your favourite craftspeople. Can you give us a little flavour of that? Yes. I think the craftspeople that I have

met in my life are some of my favorite people from Melissa White, who's a very good friend who has painted wonderful large rooms for us, actually, in a huge scale. And she started off actually repainting Shakespeare's sort of bedrooms, I think, in his house in Stratford-upon-Avon. But she's a brilliant, she's actually, wouldn't have been a great portrait artist, but she's like the travellers that in Tudor time would have gone to house to house and painted their walls. There would have been a few blots. It wouldn't have been beautiful. It would have been more of a crafted look. And then also, I also love the work of Martha Freud, who's a wonderful potter who works in porcelain, so fine that the light can be seen through it. And then another potter called Daniel Reynolds, where his pots

are just so stately and so mighty that they can hold their own in. any room. I'm meeting these people all the time and then others like Gareth Devonel-Smith who's actually working in plasters and very much more contemporary things. He's making quite a few things for our new hotel actually who's exciting to meet. But then also people also like framers. I mean the framers that I work with actually in their own way are incredible craftsmen and they make just the simplest artwork look amazing. So I'm just lucky to be working. with people like that. Well, you get to cross paths with so many different people from so many different walks of life creating so many different things, putting so much beauty into the world.

I know over the years you've collaborated with many brands as well, including designing tableware for Wedgwood and creating furniture and accessories for anthropology. How do you pick who you want to work with and which of those collabs being the most fun? Well, I never like to say no. And so if I'm approached, yeah, I'll say yes. Because it's a lot. even if I think, oh my goodness, now what am I going to do? I mean, that's, you know, the sort of butterflies in your tummy that you get before you start all these things, which actually you've just got to say, I'm going to overcome it and I'm going to do it. And I'm going to do my best and only the best is good enough with Wedgwood.

I loved the fact that it was such an English company. And I was looking at their designs and I just thought, you know, you can use the traditional things, but actually do it in a slightly more contemporary way. And at the moment, I've just been working with Spode as well, which is a company which has been going since 1770. They've got Port Merion and their slipwear as well, which is sort of pottery that I've been doing collections for. And at the moment, working with GP and Jay Baker doing a stripe collection,

wallpapers, fabrics, planes, you name it. I've been working and that will be coming out next spring. So there's always this sort of springboard of different things. things happening and they find me. I don't really find them. Talking about the opulence and the craft that's depicted in restoration and all these different inputs you have when you're making your works and your projects, some of your projects have included designing such exceptional hotels, the lights of the Whitby Hotel, the Soho Hotel, the Ham yard hotel in London as well as Crosby Street Hotel in New York City. How do you strike?

the balance between creating very visually striking spaces and also ensuring that they feel inviting and comfortable. Well, I always think it's the best thing when people say, did you have to do very much here? Because very often it could be a new build. I mean, Hamm yard is a new build, Crosby, the Whitby, the new build, so-soho, actually. And if you come in and it looks like it's meant to be, then you don't have that flashiness of what I would. would call sort of high heels of an interior. It just looks, it should look fascinating. It should make you smile, actually. I do think that interior should have that element of fun, of a lightweight feel and curiosity and wonderment, all those sort of things all rolled into one. So that's what I'm

trying to achieve. The outside of their properties, most of ours kind of have crittle windows. So it looks good. It's almost like a classic look. It could be in a sort of French garret or it could look like a sort of Michelin petrol station or it could look just sort of contemporary. And that means that I've got light flowing in because actually I always gravitate whenever I go into any room towards the window. So I'm always looking out rather than in and bringing the outside in rather than out.

And I love gardens too because they stay alive whereas a room kind of dies when you shut the door. it always needs life all the time and people and love. But after that, I can do exactly as I want. And, you know, we're women, for a start. We're like butterflies. We can actually feel like doing one thing one day and another day. Although when I am designing a building, I try and do it in one sort of mindset all the way through

and try and just pile through it because there'll be that congruency towards in every room and in every part of the building. Well, I know one of the tools for creating that fun, that wonderment that you've just described is colour, which brings us on to our fifth and final bookshelfy book today, which is Cassia St. Clair's The Secret Lives of Color. A fascinating cultural and social history of colours, originally based on a column, St. Clair writes for Elle decoration. Organised in a series of chapters by colour, this book tells the unusual stories of the 75 most. fascinating shades from Picasso's blue period to the charcoal and the cave walls at LaSalle, acid yellow to imperial purple. These surprising stories run like a bright thread across fashion and

politics, arts and war. Why did you pick this book? I think I chose it. First of all, I love Cassia St. Clair. I actually met her quite by chance. She was signing some books in the Ultimate Library, which is a bookshop in South Kensington and I just love talking to her. But The Secret Lives of Color, every page is another story. It's quite incredible all the different, I wish I could remember them all.

But this is a book that you have beside your bed or beside your desk and you dip into it. Now, some people will dip into a recipe book because they love it. And for me, it's this. It's the secret lives of colour. And I could pick it up 365 days of the year and find something in it. I mean, if she could have, if she could become a dame of colour,

I think that's what she should be because I think she's just fabulous. How do you approach adding colour to her space? Well, I think, you know, rooms have to breathe. So, and I love a bold interior, but I don't like a frantic. one. So rooms always should feel as if you never want to leave it. They should feel as if you want to show somebody else this room

because you find it beautiful and exciting. So I will never use more than one sort of large scale pattern and I will often have a block of colour and then I'll have maybe a very small geometric but there should

always be that feeling of calm. So I love sort of ploughing through and finding out the different names and then thinking, well, actually, if you look at the inside of a watermelon, you know, isn't it beautiful? From those deeper pinks to that black seed and then those lighter colours and those softer greens and then that very dark green on the outside. I mean, that's nature.

You can never beat nature. And if you get stuck, just kind of follow it. I think that's the advice that I will take as well in every future design pursuit. What are some of the most common interior design issues you come across? I'm actually interested in now. How do you tend to combat? them because it's not always smooth sailing, surely? No, it's not smooth sailing and it's about balance and scale.

And I think that's what people get so wrong so often having two huge sort of sofa that takes over the room and squashes everywhere, you know, as if it's kind of alive like a sort of tomato or potato that's pulling out. And so it is good to have a slightly stricter line going through it as well as being really, really comfortable. And also, you know, if you've got a small room, you don't have to have little sort of piddly things in it. You know, I hate furniture where I think I'm going to fall over all the legs and it's going to fall over with me. I do like a bit of weight in a room.

A sturdy chunk. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I remember at the Whitby just putting this table that I'd bought from Josephine Ryan, which had whalebone legs to it. And suddenly, that the whole room seemed to be lifting until that went in. and it was only sort of quite a small round table, but it gave a heftiness in that room. And I often think rooms do need almost like an ugly piece of furniture to sort of bed it down.

Noted. In your book Design Secrets, you actually include a colouring book section in which readers can reimagine some of your most iconic interiors. What did you want to achieve by including this? I think it's just so much fun. And my favorite bookshop in the world is much ado books in Alfreston in East Sussex. And it's Kate and Nash who own the bookshop.

It's an independent bookshop. And they are the heart of that community. But they had an evening which was just colouring in. Oh, I love it. It's so therapeutic. So cathartic. I've got several colouring books and I love just painting for my relaxation. It's perfect.

It's a wonderful thing to do. And I thought, well, if it's good enough for Kate and Nash, it's good enough for me. Just finally care. Are there any upcoming projects or books even in the works that you can tell us about? Well, we're going to be opening the Warren Street Hotel, which is very near Ground Zero in Tribeca in New York. And it's a new build, and so we've been watching it going up and from the top you can just glancingly see the Hudson River. And it's in a beautiful street. it's actually blue and yellow. So the sort of Ukrainian flag colors,

whether that's good or bad, I don't know, but that's the color of the whole building. So it's such an exciting stage where you've got everything. You've collaborated with wonderful craftspeople, with artists, you've put in as much as you can to make it. But you don't know yet, because it hasn't actually been put inside the building.

And it's meant to be opening February 1st. So I'm actually starting to install in October, November. And that is going to be, well, is it working or not? And I've designed some fabulous sort of wallpapers, some wall hangings, some fabrics, even paint colours, which are our own. And so I'm just longing to see. It's like my little treasure box, like my little work of art. So exciting. I do have to ask you, Kit, just finally, if you had to choose one book from your list.

I mean, they're all laid out in front of us as a favourite. It's hard and they look so nice there. Which would it be and why? Oh, Lord. Well, I mean, it's got to be between Mary Webb, precious bane, and actually Vashti Bunyan, wayward, just another life to live, because she's so, well, just love her. But actually, at the end of the day, I have to go back to my mum's old favourite,

which is Mary Webb's precious bane. And by the way, the foreword has been written by Stanley Baldwin, who wrote it from his desk in 10 Downing Street. He was the prime minister in 1928. And I just love the idea that he was the prime minister at that time, and yet he was writing and looking out of the window, thinking of pastoral thoughts of a time of Waterloo and way away from, you know, Parliament and the city of Westminster.

And this book, I mean, it looks so well read, it's so thumbed. It's beautiful. It looks like embossed as well. I can tell how special it is to you. You said you read and reread it since the age of 10. So I'll let you put it back on your bedside table and carry on doing that. Thank you so much for joining me. It's been such a joy to chat to you about the books that you love.

And to you. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction, podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.