Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S6 Ep9: Bookshelfie: Louise Minchin

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Live from Bailey’s HQ, Louise Minchin, former BBC Breakfast Presenter, endurance athlete, writer and podcaster reveals how she coping with her kids flying the nest, finding time to judge the Women���s Prize and she discusses her new book, Fearless: Adventures with Extraordinary Women. Louise is someone whose warmth, empathy and journalistic prowess will be familiar to millions of people across the UK, she presented BBC Breakfast for almost twenty years, lighting up TV screens across the nation and negotiating the delicate balance of being both someone who can ask difficult questions to those in power and someone you'd actually like to have breakfast with. In 2021 she decided to finally give herself a lie-in, though hasn’t exactly slowed down. She’s a keen - and incredibly successful triathlete and fitness ambassador, presenter of the Push Your Peak endurance podcast and is the chair of this year’s Women’s Prize judging panel. Plus she’s written two books - Dare to Tri followed her journey from the BBC Breakfast sofa to team GB triathlete and her new book, Fearless: Adventures with Extraordinary Women, is published at the end of May.  Louise’s book choices are:  **Island of Adventure by Enid Blyton ** The House of the Spirits Isabel Allende ** Room by Emma Donohue ** The Beasts of Clawstone Castle by Eva Ibbotson ** The Salt Path by Raynor Winn Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season six of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Six? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the

very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 6 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the show. the books you'll be adding to your 2023 reading list. We're doing a live podcast recording this evening. So we are in Bailey's HQ.

Bailey's are, of course, our wonderful sponsors. And I've got a wonderful audience in front of me. You know what? If you want to laugh, if you want to cheer it throughout, it's lovely to hear you. So go for it. Don't be shy. So for the podcast, can you give me a woo?

Louise Minchin presented BBC Breakfast for almost 20 years, lighting up TV screens across the nation. and negotiating that delicate balance of being both someone who can ask difficult questions to those in power and someone you'd actually want to have breakfast with. In 2021, she decided to finally give herself a lie in, though hasn't exactly slowed down. She's a keen and incredibly successful triathlete and fitness ambassador, presenter of the Push Your Peak Endurance podcast, and is the chair of this year's Women's Prize Judging Panel. Plus, she's written two books,

Dare to Try following her journey from the BBC Breakfast Sofa to Team GB Triathlet and her new book, Fearless Adventures with Extraordinary Women, which is published at the end of May. Welcome to this very special live podcast recording. Oh, Vic, thank you so much. And what a pleasure to be here.

And what a great whoop as well. She hasn't even warmed them up and they just whooped, didn't they? And they'll whoop again. Oh, thank you very much. I've listened to the podcast. and gosh, you've had some illustrious guests, so I kind of feel under pressure.

And also, obviously, I normally sit in the seat that you're sitting in and ask the questions. So for me, it's like, okay. But you've come so prepared. You've got your books. You've got your own book. You were just saying before, this is a proof.

And you were saying to everyone in the audience, careful there's a couple of tabas, because it's not quite there yet. It's not ready yet. I did the audible last week of Fearless, and you go into the booth, then you think, this is great. And then you come to the page 10,

you're like, oh no, there's a typo. So that typo's gone, and there are a few others as well. But you just, anyway, it's a really exciting time. But also, you know, you want to be everything to be perfect. And hopefully it will be. The audible book is, I've corrected all the typos in that one. Well, you notice when you're reading in that way, when you're reading aloud, you kind of consume it

and put it back out into the world in a different way. But also, I suppose that thing about reading out loud and you'll do this as well. Like there would be mistakes, for example, on AutoQ when I was on BBC breakfast but your brain just makes them right and I remember there was the tea missing off train which is kind of quite a crucial tea isn't it the rain has done yeah changes context and your brain is so you know your brain works so fast that my brain put the tea on train and there was one one really alarming moment and it kind of gives me sweaty hands even thinking about it where we're going it's

sort of I think it was six o'clock maybe it would be seven o'clock in the morning and I'll know why I know that time because we're just going to the headlines and you've got that countdown and you've got, you know, the clock that you probably heard on BBC Breakfast make a special sound and the bum-booms, doesn't it?

We're just ahead of the bum-booms and my editor comes over Talkback so he speaks into my ear. We're live, right? He goes, Louise, the headline's wrong. Does he tell you which headline? Thank you very much, no.

So you know there's a mistake, but just not where. I don't know which headline and there were five. Or what was wrong? Which one was it? Did you work it out? Yes.

Because it was obviously it was 7 o'clock and that's why it's key because I would have read the headline correctly at 6 o'clock. So when it was wrong and I can't quite remember because I think my brain, I have a brilliant delete button in my brain when things are bad. But I fixed it. I fixed it. So your brain does things that if you told me that I would be able to do that, I go no. But yeah, the brain is clever than my brain is clever than I am. Does that make sense? It actually really does make sense.

It really does. I really get you. I mean, I know that early shift, and I know what it can do to your brain as well. And personally, my reading habits really change when I moved from doing a breakfast show to now doing a drive-time show and just being less of a shell of a woman, like just having a little bit more energy. Talk me through your reading habits over those years. Gosh, so I, well, come to it, I love reading. I'm a complete bookworm, voracious reader when I was a child.

And then BBC Breakfast came along and I'm reading for work. So I would get up at 3.40 in the morning and I'd get maybe 40 pages, A4 of briefs. So 12 different interviews all to be read before 6 o'clock in the morning. And I became very, I didn't realize until kind of a couple of years in

when I went on holiday and read a book on holiday. I became very fast, very, very fast reader. And I remember going on holiday and reading something in like one day. I was like, well, I finished that book. That's so disdain. disappointing and I didn't realize that I'd actually speed it up and what I found then was I really could only finish books when I was on holiday because I ran out of time you know you talk about

being the shell of the person I was always you know catching up with the news or catching up with articles or and then I had this growing pile because I was really lucky I would get to an interview incredible authors like Kate Moss for example that's how I met her that's how I became chair of the women's prize because I interviewed her on BBC breakfast and I had this sort of growing pile of the books that I'd get. And of course, I'd only be given the book maybe four days before the interview, so I would run out of time to read the whole book. And this pile of books, there was one pile of books I didn't want to finish. And there was a pile of books that I really wanted to finish. And it just kept growing. And then eventually I'd have to like move it out. Or it would

really depress me by all those really good books, but I haven't got time. So I've now got time, and it's been fantastic to be able to read. And being able to read as chair of the judges for the and this is a whole other ballgame when it comes to speed reading. Because how many did you have about 70? I think we got to 75 because I think because of COVID there may have been more, you know, people were writing a lot during COVID, weren't they? So 75 I think was probably more or less how many I read. And that's just your allocation.

That's just my allocation. You get this big box and it just arrives in the post, this massive box. I live in this tiny little flat when it arrived and those books had to stay in that box. I didn't have enough shelf space for it. And that is all of the allocation. So there's maybe like 100. Yeah, mine arrived in sort of bits actually. Yeah.

But then I forgot one box. I was like, oh, I've done so well. And I went upstairs and I was like, there's a whole other box with 20 books in it or something. And then I did have, because I spoke to somebody, I said, you know, what about this? They said, the first thing said, have you got space in your house? It's a crucial question.

It is a crucial question. I laughed at it at first, but no. No. And luckily, we'd just, we'd just done this room where we were, put bookshelves in and they were empty. So I put them all in the bookshelves and I colour coded them because I'm that really sad.

Nope. Because I did the set. Did you? Well, it wasn't colour. It was um, it was it. Was it height? Was it high? At first it was high and then it became red, not red. Yes. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So I had the those have been, those have been read some, whatever. But yeah, all these different coding systems. If anybody removed my books, I'd be like, don't do that.

It's a really sophisticated coding system that only I know about. But it was amazing. How have you found delving into so many worlds? Because, I mean, we all have genres that we prefer, that we don't like to engage with as much. But you're thrown into this world of just reading everything. I just absolutely loved it because I can see some of the books that over there behind us on the bar.

Look at that. The long list of out. I loved it because exactly that. It made me read things that I wouldn't necessarily have chosen, would never occur to me, have picked up. or whatever it was about the books, you know, I wouldn't have chosen some of them. And they have been absolutely, they've opened my eyes, they've moved me. I've cried quite a lot. I've laughed. They've been utterly brilliant.

And I think that's an incredible experience to be able to just be made to do it in some ways. And I think it will change me forever, my reading habits, actually. I'll probably read the long list every year now. It's a beautiful long list, everybody. And there are some incredible books on there, and they're really done. diverse and that's what hopefully every long list is like so I will definitely go and look at that next year I was thinking it's the whole point of the long list because it's validation for books that you maybe wouldn't have picked up in the shop but you think okay this must be good it's

been chosen let me have a look let me see yeah and then you do and it opens up something that you can come to love as well I mean the year I judged it and Piranesi which won for the first 50 pages I was just going not for me not for me no way And then, bam, I was in and I was utterly transported. I was obsessed. And now I love that fantastical kind of literature that usually wouldn't have even stopped. I would have gone in on fantastical. There's other things I would have chosen not to read.

And that's what I love about it. And we've talked a little bit about your reading habits as an adult. But let's talk about your first book, Shelfy, book is taking us all the way back to childhood. And it is Island of Adventure by Enid Blyton. This is the first in Blyton's Adventure series. and it was first published in 1944. It follows the story of four children and their parrot Kiki as they bravely set sail to the ominously titled Isle of Doom,

a small island where they came across some sinister criminal activity. Tell me about this book and when you read it. I've got the book here. Oh, wow. When did you get this? Well, it's my dad's. It's beautiful. And somebody just pointed out to me.

It is the first edition, but it's been drawn on. I feel like that makes it more valuable. Not by me. So this is my dad's book, and that's his name, Pat Grayson, and that's when he was given it in 1947. And then it was given to, this is my cousin, my first cousin, who I'm blaming for the airplane, which has been drawn on it,

because he then went and joined the army, and I'm sure that I just know that would have been him. And then given to me, and I must have had, I mean, I don't know when my dad gave it back to me. And I know, you know, we have reread it today, and there are things in here which are uncomfortable to read. Let's be perfectly honest by Enid Blyton. But for me, first of all, the fact that that came through my dad

and through my cousin is really special. And for me, it just gave me a love of reading and a love of adventure. And I wasn't, I didn't like her other books, actually. The adventure stories were the ones for me because it was just that kind of, you know, the grown-ups were out the room and they went and did this crazy things that they weren't allowed to do.

and for me that was sort of a little bit like how I wanted my childhood to be, to be on that boat going to the island and doing scary stuff. You spent your early life in Hong Kong. Yes. Was your childhood full of adventures? I guess it was. Yeah, no, I guess it probably was. I mean, I left when I was four or five, but you have sort of fleeting memories.

And family legend has that I could actually swim before I could walk because my mum and dad would sort of like throw me into it. It sounds really irresponsible, doesn't it? throw me into swimming pools or into the sea and I completely, I was just like a fish. I loved, love, love swimming. And I remember one, the one thing I do remember, and I think it is the real memory, was we lived on a tower block, like really high up on a tower block, like 15th or 16th floor. And there was a typhoon.

And the blocks were made to sway with the wind because otherwise they would fall. And I do remember being in the bath and the bath water actually moving. I think that's a real memory. But yeah, I guess maybe that has fed through my whole life and I'm still a real real. really passionate swimmer so that would come from there and you were in Hong Kong because your father was a British army major yeah he was exactly you're good yes he was what was it like growing up in a military family because you mentioned your cousin as well yeah so he left shortly after I think he left when I was about eight or something so I do have memories of him being all dressed up you know in

his uniform and being really smart and all the rest of it and actually you know it's a really important part of my family history actually because not only was my father in the he was in the irish guards uh some was my grandfather so he'd followed in my in his father's footsteps and then my brother was as well i mean i don't quite know why i didn't do it because i would be i would have loved it i would have loved the kind of you know being part of a team and kind of being pushed i suppose in some ways so it runs through our family as a strong theme actually my father my grandfather my brother very proud of it well i mean the the plane that's been drawn Yeah, that is definitely my cousin.

I mean, he's not an artist, is he? Oh, I can tell it was a fighter jet straight away. Okay, there you go. But you said that this book has been passed out. Yeah, and I think that's important. My parents, they read to me when I was a child. I remember that very, very vividly, and I've read to my children,

and then hopefully, you know, that gets passed down generations. And I love books that have been given to me, we'll talk about one later, the salt path, given to me by a friend. I just think, and, you know, for example, with the long list, There are books that I'm giving to people because I'm like, you need this in your life. I just think it's a really precious thing to do.

I've also got this off my dad a few years ago, but I think I've got four of them or something. It does feel so special. I like the sound that it makes, even when you touch the cover. I wish that we read books in a different way. I wish that when you read books, you kind of wrote notes in it. Do you see what I mean? Because I'd love to know when, oh my gosh,

I've got underlined bits. It turns out it has been written. Yeah, it has been written. But also, you know, you can tell when it's been folded. down and that's obviously been folded down twice. You know, that book has been, it's been places, hasn't it? There's a story as well behind every little bit of page that's been folded out.

I remember my mum gave me her copy from her O levels of To Kill a Mockingbird and it still had all of her notes. Oh, did it? Do you see, how do you love that? And I felt like I learnt more about my mum through those notes that she had left as a 14, 15, 16 year old. I think it's got blood stains on it, look. What do you think?

That's blood, or possibly chocolate? I don't know. I mean, no. me I've probably fallen over and I don't know. And when you give a book to someone because you feel like it could mean something to them, it could be special to them, it could teach them something, it could, it could be an escape that they need, that says a lot more about your relationship than anything else. It's a really precious thing. I know, I mean I know that both my mum and dad would have read that to me and I just, you know,

it's a really special thing in a lot, something I never forget. Thank you to know. We touched on this very briefly, but Blighton has been the source of some controversy in recent years. How do we reconcile the writer and the work? Does it change how you read a book? You said you've read it just today?

I had it today. Yeah, it does. I think it does. And of course, I'm reading it with 21st century eyes, and she wrote it in 1944. So, you know, and there has been talk, hasn't there, of Hachette actually going back to rewrite it, but I don't think

they're going to. I think I might have read it a little bit with my children, actually, but we never read them. So I think maybe, know, maybe that's where it needs to be. It's in my memory and maybe that perhaps where it needs to be. I'm not sure. It's really hard. It's really hard.

But you definitely, I mean, I read it today and I was like, okay, I'm not comfortable with this. And I'm not sure, you know, she wouldn't write it now, I'm sure. You so to me. The same goes for so many art forms, you know, film, television. Yeah. Do we remake all those shows? Do we leave them where they... And we'll in 50 years time or 25 years time,

You know, our future generations, my children's children, look back and go, oh, I can't believe they wrote that. You're like, Grandma, what you do? Yeah. I mean, do you sort of mean? Completely. I mean, I just, for example, if you look at one of the things, and I know I can't pick a favourite or anything, it's not a favorite, I'm just mentioning it, from the women's prize. If you look at Pod and the way humans treat the ocean and animals in the ocean, and I think it's a real game change of that book. and it's really deeply shocking actually

but in a kind of like call to action way. So you can see how things change and change is a good thing. It is a good thing. So maybe in 25 years of time somebody look at my book and go, oh my goodness, she did what? A triathlon.

It's time to talk about your second book, Shalfi book, which is the House of Spirits by Isabel Agende. Originally published in Spanish in 1982 this multi-generational family saga explores the political and social upheavals of post-colonial Chile through a magical realist lens. It was Isabelle's debut novel and started life as a letter to a hundred-year-old dying grandfather. Although it's now considered a literary

masterpiece and translated into over 20 languages, it was initially rejected by multiple publishers. What do you love about it? So I would call it, as you probably would, La Casa de los Espiritos. Okay. So the reason I read this book was, was because I went to St Andrew's University and I studied Spanish. And I was really bad at Spanish when I was at university because I didn't turn up for lectures, which is probably, I mean, that's a bit of an admission,

but I have told my children this, right? But luckily they're not as naughty as I am, or was. So, and I studied Spanish and I was very lucky. I got an opportunity to go and live in Latin America for a year, actually, in Buenos Aires for a year. There was a scholarship, which had been offered by a company in Glasgow for one student. It was an exchange student.

So I was going to go and live in Buenos Aires, and then somebody from Buenos Aires was going to come and live in Glasgow. Who got the better deal? He did, obviously. Anyway, so I was really lucky, and I went out to Buenos Aires, and the key to me not turning up for lectures

was I turned up in Argentina. I mean, if I'd gone to lectures, I would have learned a very Castilians, a very Spanish, European Spanish, right? Argentinian is, I mean, virtually different language, isn't it? It's like Spanish with an Italian accent. I was like, Che, moludo, chau bella. No, I've had any idea that I've been like, I was in Buenos Aires as well,

on my year abroad studying Spanish. Oh my gosh. I should have known this. I feel terribly ignorant. No, no. When I read the series, I'm obsessed, yes, we have the same. So you will have been through a similar experience whereby I landed in like 3 a.m. in the morning, I got delivered to, again, it was a tower block on the 17th floor again.

And literally the next day I started my job, my job was in a factory, which was actually way out of Buenos Aires. So you had to go and get a Boston, it was quite complicated to get to. And I arrived there, and they literally said to me, right, okay, Louise, Louisa. They could never say my name, Louise, they thought I was a boy. So Louisa, what would you like to speak? Would you like English or Spanish? And I looked at them and I was like, oh gosh.

I mean, I hardly understood that they said that to me, by the way. I was like, well, I've travelled 7,000 miles to learn Spanish, so let's say Spanish. So I said Spanish. And then the other thing they said to me, would you like to be paid in dollars or Australis? Oh, at what point? At what point? Very good question. Okay.

So I went, gosh, I'm not really sure what Australas are. I think that's your currency, but dollars, it was at a point when they had hyperinflation. Yeah, when it was pegged to the pay for. Yeah, exactly. So it was hyperinflation and it was an extraordinarily terrifying time for them to live through because literally I would go to the supermarket and I'd, let's say it cost me, my whole shop would cost me £20 one week and I'd go to the supermarket so 20 Australas one week, I'm just making up the figures, right?

The next week I'd go in and it would same shop, 45, next week, 100. It was just utterly destabilising and terrifying for people. And because I was being paid, you know, technical issue by Glasgow, I was on $100 a month and $100 a month just got more and more valuable. It was utterly unbelievable. And if your surname began with A in the alphabet, you would get paid first, and you'd take your Australes and you would run to the exchange and change your money into dollars as quickly as you could. And of course, people lower down the alphabet got a worse exchange rate. I mean, I don't know what it was like when you were there, but it was really, you know, I was a very lucky person.

and to see this happening was just very disturbing actually. I found it fascinating. A, how young democracy was and how suspicious people were of any sort of power. And then B, it was, yeah, this hyperinflation. Every menu was written in a marker that you could rub away because it would change. The price of everything would change every single day.

And people were keeping their money under their bed. They weren't trusting the banks. How could you trust the banks? And they took away all the savings when I was there. They just took all their savings. And it stripped away this entire middle class, which is why when they were putting. protesting in the placid imago.

It was women with their pots and pans to say, this is what we used to be and look at us now. Like, what's happening? It was confusing. What did you take away from that time? We haven't talked about the book. Sorry, we haven't talked about this book. So being not very good at Spanish,

I was like, right, okay, first of all, I was sort of dropped in and immersed in this world where I remember just literally being inundated with this noise that I could kind of get one word out of 10. And then I basically learnt by sitting down with a hundred years of solitude with a dictionary, which is a dense book, isn't it? It'll take you a while. Yeah, with a dictionary, and I read it from literally all the pages.

And I remember watching telenovelas, so soap operas. They are, I mean, they're so brilliant. It's so brilliant. There's one about a nun. Did you watch that one? You probably, I mean, you were there years after I was. I mean, religion came into them a lot, a lot of religion, a lot of sex. mind that was the general vibe so so that's how it started and then I think I and then I

spent a lot of time traveling actually in Chile and I really fell in love with the with the literature and with the language particularly in Chile actually because it seemed to me that every Chileno that you met you literally say hello they said what is your name I say Luis what Luisa and then we go do you believe in God yeah they were just awful lot they were so philosophical and not not not not not any kind of you know like did i believe in the existence of god you know what you just like and i love i just love them and then i met then i met i met i didn't meet isabella yende i met her because i read her book and i just loved it and i loved i mean you i don't think you are probably a fan of magic realism are you can i just say i i i i first arrived at

uni studying spanish i i i was so stupid i felt so stupid i went to cambridge and i remember thinking like what were they thinking like me and i shouldn't be i don't know anything You probably went to lectures though But I was trying I was honest trying I couldn't believe when all these Eaton boys would put their hand up

and they didn't even know the answer but they had that confidence and I found myself shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and I read 100 years of solitude and I remembered why I loved Spanish It reminded me Okay so I just fell in love

With the Latin American literature and I came back and I was given this sort of choice at the uni where I If I wanted to keep studying Latin American literature I had to give up international relations and because it was otherwise

it was going to be savantis and I'm out I want the magic realism and I want all that colour and just excitement and wonderful ideas so I gave up international relations to carry on with with Latin American literature and I just I just adored it and then I came back and I was the bottom of the class when I left and I came back and I was just like did you have some sort of you know conversion I mean who is it who is this person who speaks bilingual Spanish and is completely obsessed by the literature they had they just couldn't get their heads by professors couldn't understand the change of me. It changed me forever.

So taught me through the magic of the magical realism. How did it affect you? What happened? I think it just got in my head. I started dreaming in it. And I probably started, you know, dreaming in Spanish as well. You know, it was kind of like an osmosis of both of them. Magic realism made me understand the language.

And I love the characters in the House of Spirits. You know, they're just the brilliantly ethereal. And, you know, there's so much deep meaning as well. but in this kind of told in this sort of fables and wondrous. I just, yeah, I love it. It's one of my favourite genres. I ended up doing the same. I came back and specialised.

That was the route I wanted to take in, yeah, in Latin American literature, specifically medical reasons. I just absolutely love it. So I'm glad we got to have this chat. She's utterly unbelievable, and that was her first novel, which was just brilliant. I mean, I have read it. I've been reading it, as you can see,

I've been reading it in the bath again, but not in Spanish. Could you still read it in Spanish? I wouldn't, because it wouldn't relax me. I don't think in the same way. But it's funny because when you read, I mean, this is the whole thing about reading in translation is there is also a real benefit to reading in Spanish and those words that are so evocative and so colourful and so sumptuous, fizzing on the page in the way that

they're supposed to. And words that I don't think can be translated. They can't be. It's more what they embody, like those words aren't just words. They mean their feelings. They mean things in Spanish. Right, everybody, are you going to go learn Spanish? Please do.

Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favorite book. Check out baillies.com for our favorite bailey's recipes. Let's talk about your third book, which is Room, by Emma Donoghue, inspired by the house. In the parraim case of Joseph Fritzel, this breakout novel is told from the perspective of five-year-old Jack, who's being held captive in a small room, along with his mother, Ma. The first half takes place entirely within the 12-foot square prison they're living in,

with the second half set outside as the pair tried to navigate a new world of freedom. It is a story of survival against the odds and the power of maternal love. I mean, it's extraordinary. What was it that stood out to you about this book? I think you had it with maternal love. I wasn't a mum when I read it. And I don't think being a mum was something that was kind of really, I'd in any way actually thought about on any sort of deep level.

But it just has this. It explained to me the visceral feeling that you have as a mum towards your children and the deep love. I mean, and affection and that kind of protection you want to put, you know, what she did in that room was just extraordinarily create this kind of light, you know, make him safe, make him learn, make him feel loved, make him, you know, feel extraordinary in this tiny space. And I just, looking back now as a mum, I think it just kind of made me sort of sit up and go,

wow, you know, that really is something that I've never understood. And I didn't, I didn't really, going back now again, have never. never really understood until I became a mum how kind of deep that is and the bond is just it's sort of unexplainable and we have we have a joke about it in my family actually whereby we've got a dog called Ruby and my dog my younger daughter called Scarlett she goes mum is it that you love me as much I love Ruby and I'm like yeah you do get it she does get it but it's that whatever happens forever enduring you know I would do anything for them and I think that's the thing about room is it for me there's not another book

that is just a beautiful explanation of what maternal love is. It's going to make me very emotional, actually. But I had no idea when I read it. What do you think it is about this one? Because, you know, these mother-child relationships are a well-mined topic in literature in so many of the books that we read. But what was it about this depiction that really...

I think it's because it's told from his point of view. That's very... You know, he's only five, isn't he, or later six, isn't he? I think because it leaves you sort of guessing, do you sort of mean? He leads you down this path, but it's so much of it is unsaid. That's kind of the way I see it, I think. But it's just, for me, it's just beautifully written, it's beautifully put together. And then, you know, I'm a news reader.

I've got so many bad news stories in my head. And to sort of write that really traumatic story in such a meaningful way is a very, just a clever thing to do. I am always really interested, actually, with news anchors yourself being an anchor of a journalist. How challenging is it to report on to absorb these kind of stories? How has it been over the years? I mean, this is inspired by the horrifying story of Joseph Ritzel.

I think if I wasn't emotionally involved in the stories, then I don't think I would be doing the job properly in some ways. because I think you need to be able to have empathy in order to wake up in the morning and tell all of you who are watching, or you are listening, you know, something terrible. If I don't have empathy, then that's wrong, in my view. There are stories, though, that my husband's really good at helping,

particularly with this particular story, helping me through it because I like books because they've got endings. Yeah? Yes. I read because I like to know what happens. But that's resolution. Yeah, there's normally, normally there's not all books give you that, do they? Of course they don't.

But there's resolution, isn't there? And there's a meaning behind it and all the rest of it. And so I think that's why I kind of went into journalism in the first place because I was like, why, what, who, you know, what happens next? And it's the stories where we don't know what's happened next that I particularly find really difficult to leave behind. And Madeline McCann being one of them, I was there in the newsroom that day that she went missing

and I still see it now sitting in this tiny room and the grey sofas and all the rest of it and they were going, this girl, this child's gone missing and what do we put it in the news bulletin which obviously we did. And I have children of a similar age actually and it was just for me, it's stories without ending that I find really difficult

and that's human and of course it is because we don't know what's happened to that little girl and their family, It's been the destroyer of so much of their hope and hope for the future, hasn't it? So, and then there's another one as well where it was the Manchester bombing, and that happened. You know, I moved up to Chester with Sawford, to Sawford to Media City, with my children, etc. Had Mia, my eldest, not been doing GCSEs that month, we would have been there.

She kept saying, can I go to the Ariana Grande concert? And I was like, no, you can't because you're doing your GCSEs. But I haven't got one that day. I was like, you still can't. So we would have been there. felt very much in our kind of backyard and, you know, I would have been the person who'd been standing waiting because I would have been like, come on, we need to go, I've got to get to work or whatever it is. So that felt very, very, very difficult as well. And I had to be there

in the morning, you know, knowing that something horrific had happened behind me. But again, telling the audience gently that, you know, when I know there are children waking up listening to that and somehow it's not knowing again, which is difficult, isn't it? We didn't know what, you know, how many people have been killed. And to be able to talk about, you know, tell the audience that gently is by the thing I took most seriously, I think, to tell, you know, to tell people, I can hold people's hands while terrible things are happening, that are unexplainable. And when you go home from a day at work, where you've had to tell people terrible things that are unexplainable and you have two children, how do you explain to them that terrible

things have happened that are unexplainable? I don't know. I don't even know how I've done that. I don't know. I probably in the same way. I think because of what I do or did, they are quite robust. You know, they are. So, yeah, I just guess in the same way, really. It feels like something.

Yeah, gently. Well, this is something that resonates in this book because in spite of the darkness, in spite of the horror, there is this power and this love. To read. To tell a different story. That's it, isn't it?

book. Do you sort of mean? There she is. And she makes up this extraordinarily big world for them. Just so much horror going on and she just decides to tell him a different story, which again is to her cost when she comes out actually, isn't it? But it's yeah, it's an extraordinary thing. Well, on that note, we move on to your fourth book, which is the beasts of Clairstone Castle. It's a bit of a gear change. Have you read this one? Well, this is from a long. time ago. I have memories of it. I think so. I think it was read to me. Yes. Yes. It was read to you. Yeah. This is by Eva Ivitson, another book about a children's school holiday adventure. This time our protagonists, two children called Madeline and Rollo, enlist the help of some

friendly ghosts while staying in a Scottish castle. And lots of twists and turns follow on the surface. It is a humorous fantasy story for kids. But it does also raise interesting issues. around animal experimentation, cosmetic surgery and the destruction of the natural world. Which are big issues. Which are big issues? When you read it, were you aware of them? Were you aware what's happening? Or were you just, you know, were you a child?

No. So I read it to slash with Scarlet. Right. Okay. Okay. So I've not read it before. And we read it. So she's now 18.

So we must have read it when she was about eight. And it may have been, maybe it was a school thing. Or maybe we just picked it up. We both have a slightly. goolish imagination. Okay, we like the Gothic. It's just a great adjective. Very ghoulish, yeah.

We like a bit of gothic. We like a bit of, in our books, not in real life. We like a bit of darkness. And I just think we sort of bonded over this book. And we were, honestly, we're obsessed by it. So I think, you know, like she'd read a bit, I'd read a bit, we'd read a bit together. I can remember exactly where it is and all the rest of it. And we got through.

Yeah, I think I probably was aware because I was the adult and she was the child. But we still, you know, we still talk about it. We don't talk about the bad bits. We talk about the, you know, again, to me, I guess what it is for her in some ways, it's her version of that adventurous, childish, go and do stuff, you know, be slightly scared, but it's all going to be okay in the end. We love it. And she's become a very good, dark writer.

She's a really good writer. So she's enjoying it. She's kind of paper as well. Absolutely. So she, so much so that at school, I laugh again, I got taken aside by her teachers, going Louise Scullet writes in very dark stories. I'm like in social services. Yeah, they're like, yeah, they, you know, and I had to have a word with her. I say, look, I love your dark stories. But every now and then, just to make the teachers happy, put in a happy ending. Like, really? And some, we did have some, something, I won't say what it was, but something very traumatic did happen to some friends of ours.

So actually, you know, she was expressing in writing form what had happened. So yeah, so we, so Scott and I, and we still, you know, again, we were only, I said, I think I might put this book in. She said, please do, should we read it again? So we may read it again. She's 18 now, but she remembers this book. It means something to it. The time that you spent together reading it, it means something to.

Yeah, it really does. And she wants you to remember that and to celebrate that again. Yeah, and that's where we, so we have a, We have our own cinema club, me and Scarlett. The other members of our family, my husband and my daughter are not involved in it. We go to cinema. Exactly. I mean, occasionally join us, but, you know.

So, you know, I think with my children, it's so important to find something that you bond over or you love together. And this for me and Scarlett was really, really key. And did you read to your kids right from the beginning? Was that time that you carved out? I did read to them, yeah. Why is it so important to you? I think because I was read to, I think it's such a, you know,

such a privilege that I was read to that I kind of wanted to pass it on. And I want, you know, for me, I find escapism in these books and, you know, going and exploring other worlds. And I just, I wanted them to have access to that. And actually, they do both read. They don't always read, but they do both read. And I love that they still do that because, you know, you can say, oh, this generation don't read or all they're doing is living on TikTok.

You know, there's a lot of that. Don't get me wrong. But they do both find solace in books, which is great. I remember, yeah, my parents always read to us and there's two sort of memories that stick out. One was that we went through the entire Harry Potter series with my dad not realizing that it was Hermione and not Hermione. Oh, I think I did that bit until I listened to Stephen Price. He just read the while. He did all the voices as well and sometimes if dad was working, mum would try and do it. We're like, no, but you can't do the voice at the same.

But when mum read to us, if she was ever tired, she would start to drift off. And as she drifted off, she would go from English to Ibo, which is her mother tongue. So she'd be like, and then Harry said, I like, you see, that. It would just change. But it was a really special time. And all of me and my three brothers, all six, would sometimes sit. I mean, I have a TV, but we sit and listen to my parents reading. And it was how we finished most days.

And it was really special. As much as I possibly could, I did do that. And again, it's that kind of moment, isn't it, where you've just got a bit of time out from everything else. And if you can find a book that you both enjoy, I tell you what. That's a winner. You've spoken openly actually recently about the grief that comes when your children fly the nest. Have books helped with this sense of loss for you? Oh my gosh, definitely.

So they both went pretty much when I started having to read for the women's price. So you had something to fill the gas. I'd have these 75 books and now what I'm worried about is when we get to the end. Then what? And I can tell you now, I'm so sorry, Louise, but you have this real feeling of complete, you're bereft. Like, what do I do?

Do I read a book by a man? Can you even conceal it? Do you want to choose? Yeah. I got somebody to send me 75 books. Yeah, so it has really helped, but it's so funny because they do fly the nest, and then they just relax, like today I was at home,

and Scarlett just walked in. Didn't even know she was coming home. How far did she go? They're both at uni. Okay. So they kept, but once, she's, she's, she's, on holiday at the moment but she'd gone she'd gone away somewhere and then she just turned up and i'm like honestly it's the most exciting thing that happened to me today apart from this obviously

but um you know it's just like that i expect she probably did it on purpose she probably didn't tell me so she knew oh my gosh you're back how exciting what can i do can we chat i'm really annoying can i go and have my soup in your room it's it's good to hear and it's good to know because i think sometimes we forget because we get so wrapped up in our own world and mom really wants you home sometimes Yeah, it really does. And so anyone listening who's in a similar position do make that time. You just turn up. There's nothing like that excitement.

It's time to talk about your fifth and final book, Shelby book today, which is The Salt Path by Raina Wynne. This memoir follows Rainer and her husband, Moth, whose terminal cancer diagnosis came just days before their business collapsed and their home was taken away. With nothing to lose, they decide to embark upon walking the 630 miles southwest coastal path from Somerset to Dorset via Devon and Cornwall. It is a moving story of coming to terms with grief, the meaning of home and the healing power

of the natural worlds. Tell us a bit about this book. Why did you pick it? Why does it mean something to you? I wrote some notes. Can I say my notes? Oh, God, please do. It's about love, loss and landscape. I was given this book, and again, we talked about it, didn't we, passing books on and being given books. and this was given by my greatest friend. And again, it's probably, I probably wouldn't have picked it up because it'd be like, oh, it's a walk. You know?

It is a walk. It's the most beautiful walk, by the way. And I just fell in love with the pair of them, actually. And the South Coast and some of the path that they walk, the north coast of Cornwall, is one of my favorite, apart from Latin America, my favorite places in the UK, and I love it for its drive.

drama and it's rugged rocks and sea, wild seas and beautiful dark pools to swim in. And I've spent so many years going down to the particular part of North Cornwall. So she goes through that. And I just think it's so much, it's a love story. For me, it's a love story. It's about the two of them, and it's about being put with the most difficult of circumstances, losing everything. And you imagine yourselves in that sort of situation where you lose everything.

And you think you lose yourselves, but they don't. and they come back stronger and with this beautiful relationship. And I mean, her writing is just stunning and lyrical and really for me, I find that landscape very difficult to explain to other people because it overwhelms me so much. I find it almost, my most favorite time of year to go down there, sort of February when it's really wild.

And it sort of shakes me up a bit. And that she does that in such a wonderful way. And also the other thing that she does it in it as well I'm really passionate about open water swimming and the way it makes me feel. It's that bracing. Yeah, invigorating. Invigorating, embracing, beautiful.

I feel like I'm a mermaid. I'm clearly not. I've learned, actually for fearless, I learned how to free dive, so I'm a bit more like a mermaid now. I love that she's able to bring that to the page and just bring it to life. And it's a beautiful journey.

And I haven't read her next book, actually. And I sort of don't want to because I want to park that and just think that is such a wonderful, just it's an ode to the landscape as well as to him as well and their relationship. On the subject of passing on these stories, in fearless in your new book, you follow these 17 trailblazing women, celebrate a female endeavour in this way. Do you know, I think the salt path, I probably read this just before, or it was certainly in my sort of way of thinking before I decided to do fearless. So why I decided to do it, and I don't know if you read the intro, but it was because I was fed up.

I love Endeavour. I love big stories, and that's why I really was very rude about the walk. It's not just a walk. It's a beautiful walk that they do. And I love the outside, and I love what it can bring you and how it can change you. Anyway, so I, you know, I've worked on BBC Breakfast for nearly 20 years, and I've interviewed lots of things. incredible men about endeavor, about being brave, about climbing the highest mountains, about, you know, swimming around the UK, whatever it is. So many, lots of incredible men. And it struck

me that we were not hearing from the stories of women doing this. And I was like, okay, so is it that women are not doing this? Or is it what I think might be true that we're not hearing their stories? And I did a little bit of a, you know, a shallow dive and was just overwhelmed by how many incredible women out there, you know, breaking down boundaries, smashing stereotypes, you know, climbing Everest, the youngest person to climb Everest twice is Molly Hughes, she's from the UK, you know, doing extraordinary things and we just weren't hearing about them. And I thought, well, I could spend my life because I spent quite a lot of time trying to make sure that there is, you know, that I read the first headline sometimes as opposed to just my male co-presenters reading

the first headline. Had a big battle over that. Can you believe it? Can you believe it? Can you believe it? Yeah. When it becomes so normalised that no one thinks about it. Okay, so what happened was, that was, so the first part of that journey was, I noticed that my male co-presenters always read the first headline, did the first interview, read the first cue, right, every day, said hello first. And why? And why? So first of all, I did, before why, I said, could I maybe do it occasionally?

And they're like, oh. Oh. Anyway, they did occasionally let me do it, and then other directors wouldn't let me do it. And then I went to why. And the answer to the why was, because that's the way we've always done it. It's just how it is. So make it not how it is?

Exactly. You'd think it was simple, wouldn't you? Anyway, so I then did a bit of research because I knew my boss at the time wasn't going to just say, you know, he just, anyway, he needed a bit of facts. So I did a bit of fact checking, took notes over three months,

who read the first headline every day for three months? Guess what? Mostly the guy. Anyway, I took that to him and we changed it. But what I was most annoyed was, you know, several years later, I started noticing that the same thing, that thing about the women not being able to do this, their stories not being told, was happening with my favourite part of the programme.

My favourite part of the programme was all those adventurous stories of brave, intrepid people. And rather than ask why, I just thought, let's just cut to the tell their stories. Because you could spend, you know, I could write a whole dissertation on the why. And I did that when I was at university. I went to Spain and did a dissertation on the portrayal of women in the media in Spain. And things have changed enormously since then. But actually, you know, I'd rather go out there and celebrate this story. And that's what I did, went and met amazing women and did crazy things.

What sort of crazy things? What sort of women? Just a couple. Just a couple. We'll go. So one crazy thing. So one of them is called Kath Pendleton and she's called the Mirtha Mermaid. And she is an ice swimmer.

And she swam the most, southernmost mile in the Antarctic. So she swam a mile where there were orcas swimming and there were leopard seals feasting on, I don't know what, not her. But anyway, she's an incredible woman. And she would say, look, I don't look like an athlete, but she's an incredible athlete. If I went in that water, I would probably be hypothermic in two minutes. She's there for three, 35 minutes.

We went free diving. under ice in Finland because why wouldn't you? I find her up and said, Kath I really want you to read my book, what should we do? Let's go free diving, under ice in the dark in Finland. I'd ask the question why again? Oh, why?

Because why not? Why not? Why not? So she's amazing. There's another, they're all amazing. And having just done the audible, it's really interesting to read them all back to back. They're all got so many different things to say.

One of them is Z, Aleema, and she lives in London, she is black Muslim, she wears a hijab, she works for the NHS, was a neonatal nurse, and she wants to be the first black Muslim woman to play rugby for England. And she will. And if she isn't, somebody will because of her.

And for me, it's about representation, and for her, her story is like, I want to do this so other people who look like me, who might be of the same religion, think that they can do it too. She, for example, here, you know, she would be voted woman of the match, she'd go into a bar afterwards.

She doesn't drink, does she? But we'd still keep turning up, even though there are all those different things which might have dissuaded her from doing it. So she's amazing. There's so many of them, and they're all... The one thing that is key to all of them,

I think, is that they are all incredibly modest. And that's why it needs to be done for them. I need to go, look, these are amazing women. Read about them. Because they, you know, they're not out there going, I've just become the first. person do blah-de-blah they're just getting on with their lives doing incredible stuff and not necessarily shouting about it we're not really

conditioned to shout about yes so we need to do it we need to do it for one another yeah so that's what it's a big shout it's a big shout and you know yourself having moved into triathlons what is it about endurance and challenging yourself that you love so much that you're so fascinated about clearly that's a good question right now because this will go I think I think I will have hopefully, by the time this podcast goes out, have done the London Marathon. Right now, I'm wondering about all those questions. Why would I? It's so hard. You're going to do it. Do you think you're going to do it? I'm doing it with Mia, who's my 21-year-old.

So, yeah, hopefully we will do it. I just think for me, it was, at the time when I started, it was a lot about taking control, actually, because, you know, we talked a little bit about not reading the headlines. You know, there were a lot of things that I was fighting against while I was doing my job. And not only that, but that relentless, bad news all the time every day. So I think for me, exercise became a safe space away from all of that. Then I did some competing, and that was brilliant, and I loved it. And I, you know, I do myself down here. I did, I competed for my age group in world and European championships, which is, seems a little bit crazy, even though I've done it. and then I sort of move from that into just being outside and being

like they are in this book in The Sort Path, just a small part of our incredible world and really insignificant. That's how I like to feel. And challenging myself and challenging myself and knowing that I'm going to have to get over this mountain or these sand dunes and there are just my two feet and we're just going to have to do this. And sometimes it feels really hard. and really dark and all the rest of it,

but it gives me so much power in other parts of my life where I just think, yeah, this is hard, but I've done hard things. So let's just get on and do it. It's a lot of things in perspective, isn't it? When you feel, it's almost like at once you feel so small and also so big. Yeah, small is sort of good, but yeah,

the world is big and beautiful. And we're just a very small and really... It sounds weird, doesn't it, that I'm small and insignificant, makes me feel better. It makes you feel better. So yeah, so that I've loved it and more outside the better Yeah so the moment it's the

I'm focusing on the marathon I don't quite know I've got a few ideas Something will come up Something else will come up Well in the meantime I have one more question to ask you And I think it's the toughest If you could have just one book

Oh my gosh From your list as a favourite Louise which would it be and why I think it would be the house of spirits And it would think it would have to be in Spanish because it would certainly tax my mind. Would I be allowed a dictionary as well? Of course it's fair. Okay good. That'd be really helpful. I'll give you two boots, but one of them is the dictionary. It's the dictionary. I think I take that because I think it's got

so many levels. I think it's it'll remind me of when I had a big change in my life when I decided that I was no longer going to be a was going to get up and do something with my life. And I think it reminds me of incredible times. I mean if I could have my life again, I'd probably take the whole family of going to live in Latin America. if we could in Chile. So yeah, I think it would be that. That's really surprised me actually. It's funny.

When you put on the spot, sometimes having just told these stories relived these moments, you think actually that was formative. It's the book, but it's also the time that I read that book. And it sounds like that is a book that shaped you. Yeah, it did. It absolutely did. And I'm going to go finish it off in the bath. Look.

I love how crinkly it is. Can you see where I've got to? Do you read in the bar? I do, yeah. Oh, I am terrible. I write in them, turn the page down, reading the bath, everything. But it means that they're loved. Yeah, it's beautifully loved.

I'm going to have to find it. I'm going to have to source a Spanish copy. Well, Louise, I have loved having you. Honestly, like, just the... It's so lovely to be somebody else who spent a year in Latin America. Loved it. It doesn't happen all the time. But I feel like you've taken us on some real journeys,

some real gear changes, and just some brilliant books that we can go away and press into the hands of others as well. Like you said, there's something really special about that. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm in the salt path again, I think it was a close choice between that and the house. Wait, you're adding another book to your favourite. I did it to see what you're doing. I just see what you're doing.

It's a little book, it's fine. It's okay. For you, I will allow it. Thank you so much, Louise. And thank you as well to our wonderful audience here at Bailey's HQ. Give yourselves a woof. Great. Thank you.

I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you. so much for listening and I'll see you next time.