Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep1: Bookshelfie: Jacqueline Wilson

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

Iconic, beloved children’s author and national treasure Dame Jacqueline Wilson kicks off series 7 of Bookshelfie with Vick Hope.  In her long and illustrious career Jacqueline has written over 100 books,  sold over 40 million copies in the UK alone and been translated into 34 languages. She has been the children’s laureate, winner of many awards and for years was the most borrowed author from British libraries.  Her work - including The Story of Tracy Beaker, which catapulted her to fame in 1991 - is known for tackling challenging issues, from being in care and adoption to mental illness and divorce but never at the expense of alienating her readers.  Jacqueline’s book choices are: ** Ballet Shoes by Noel Streatfeild ** Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte ** The Bell Jar by Syliva Plath ** Standard Deviation by Katherine Heiny ** Clock Dance by Anne Tyler  Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

And he drops his trousers and she stares and feels depressed. So something like, all I could think of was chicken gizzards. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 7 of Book. Shelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be

adding to your 2024 reading this. Today I am absolutely thrilled to say I'm joined by the iconic beloved children's author and national treasure, let's face it, that is Dame Jacqueline Wilson. In her long and illustrious career, Jacqueline's written over 100 books. sold over 40 million copies in the UK alone and been translated into 34 languages. She's been the children's laureate, winner of more awards than I could ever list, and for years was the most borrowed author from British libraries. Her work, including the story of Tracy Beaker, which catapulted her to fame in 1991, is known for tackling challenging issues, from being in care and adoption to mental illness and divorce,

but never at the expense of alienating her readers. Indeed, for many, hers have been the books which have helped them find their place in the world. Jacqueline, you've come up so many times on this podcast that I've lost count of the number of incredible women who have grown up, inspired and influenced by your work. And it is simply an honour to welcome you into the studio today. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, I do know, I don't think I've ever had such a lovely introduction. I'll record it for myself if ever I'm feeling depressed or down. Just listen back to us.

We were just chatting before about how Jerry Halliwell was talking about how you'd inspired her. I mean, your books have come up somewhere. I remember London Hughes, had The Bed and Breakfast Star as one of her bookshelphie books. I mean, how does it feel knowing that you've played such an important role in the lives of so many? I love it and it's an honour. And yet it still doesn't really seem real. And it's because as a small child, I loved writing. I very much wanted to get something published.

And I used to dream about being interviewed. When I walked to school in my head, I was having people saying, now, Jacqueline, do tell us about your latest book or something like that. And now it's happened for real for a long, long time now. It's just extraordinary. I feel so lucky because so many people have their daydreams when they're a child about what they might do. And I've actually achieved it, which is just amazing.

The only trouble is I was a while, a long while, actually, writing, getting published, but very much an unknown quantity. And then I think it was the story of Tracy Beaker that suddenly, thank you very much, television, made my name better known. And then I've had years and years of having a delightful time. I would say I am gently sliding down the way a bit because times change, tastes change. But I'm still publishing at least two books a year, sometimes three.

I keep promising family and friends that I'm going to slow down now. Maybe one book a year would be absolutely great, but no sign of it just yet. It's funny, isn't it? We sometimes get stressed out or we think my mind can't handle this. And yet I keep coming back to it because the love is there. Yes. You are so prolific. But do you find time to read yourself?

I can't go to sleep at night without reading. On the train journey coming here to the studio, I read. I will be reading going back. Nowadays, I'm often the only one in a train carriage actually reading a book. The physical copy. Yes. But I'm never going to read on a device for fun because nothing beats. the look of a book, the feel of a book, the nostalgic feeling when you look on your bookshelves

and see one of your favourite books. And I think quite young girls actually feel the same way because I often get sent photographs of their childhood bedroom. And because my books nearly always have very bright covers, it does look quite attractive. And it's as if they're collecting something, whereas if you read on it on a tablet or whatever, I mean, it's there and then it's gone and you just don't get the sheer physical pleasure out of it. Yeah, you can't leaf back through it in years to come and think, I remember how I felt at the moment that my fingers were touching this page. And it's the bane of my friends and family's life that I still put these big heavy

books in the suitcase every time we go anywhere. But I will never, I will never, am I great to a kindlein. think, I love the feeling of it. How do you keep your imagination fed and focused, especially in the world of children's literature? I like to feel I can keep up and be quite contemporary, but it's getting more and more of a struggle. I think up to 10 or 11, I feel I still know enough about children and I do still go to some schools and chat to children at signing sessions

and I feel I know what they like on their birthdays and it's still important to have a best friend and it's still horrible when your best friend goes off with someone else. When it goes on to secondary school, I'm not really a fan of social media and I think you start to look a bit pathetic, like Dad Doing Dancing or whatever, if you try and keep up completely with what's happening with young teenagers. I'm interested and I have occasionally written recently for older girls.

I wrote a book called Baby Love about a young teenage girl, but I set it craftily in the 1960s. I know about the 1960s. Well, let's move on to the books that have impacted your life. Your first bookshelf your book today is Ballet Shoes by Noel Streetfield. Pauline, Petrova and Posey Fossil are sisters with a difference. All three were adopted as babies and now live with their distant relative Sylvia. And when Sylvia starts to run out of money, they hit on an inspired idea.

They'll attend Madame Fidolia's Children's Academy of Dance and Stage Training and take to the stage. But it's not long before the fossils learn that being a star isn't quite. quite as easy as they thought. Now, you bought this book with your pocket money, aged seven. Was this the first book you ever bought? I think it was. And in fact, I got my copy here. And I think I looked at it.

I wanted to do ballet. I never got to do ballet, but I had a pair of pink bedroom slippers and I pretended they were ballet shoes and danced around our flat, probably looking a fool. But I saw this. I like green. It was always my favourite colour. And there are the three girls, two on the front and one at the back. And when I saw this and they were doing ballet, looking lovely, and I thought, oh, I want this book. And I had no idea what wonderful story it would be. And I think basically I like it so much because these are such realistic children. Pauline, the eldest, who wants to be an actress, she gets a big part as Alison Wonderland. But it goes to her head and she starts showing off and she starts demanding things.

There's sometimes a little bit of success really does and then she gets her come up and you feel very sorry for her. But I thought how clever of Nell Streetfield to be able to think about that. And then the middle sister Petrova is the one weirdly I identified with most because Petrova is not a girly girl at all and loves machines and mechanics and thrilled. with aeroplanes. I mean, I think it was written in the late 30s, so aeroplanes were a big novelty. And yet she's not as good at acting or dancing as either of her sisters. And she's kind of an odd one out and I always side with the odd ones out in books. And then the youngest, Posey, is a brilliant ballet dancer. And again, Noel Stretford makes her a really interesting girl in that you believe

in her natural talent. And yet she's very mischievous too and does, takes people off and pretending to be them in ways that make all the other girls at stage school fall about laughing. I mean, they're lovely girls. The whole book had me entranced.

I think it's a cracking story. I really do. This book comes up time and time again in your own writing, in particular in Wave Me Goodbye. That's very clever. Yeah. where Shirley plays elaborate imaginary games with the ballet shoes.

What is it that you think has resonated with you so much into adulthood as a writer? I think it's because you see things from the child's point of view, but the adults are very interesting too. And psychologically, I feel she's spot on. She did actually write adult books too. And I'm currently reading one at the moment called Sacklings, which is about a family, a well-to-do family at the start of the Second World War. And then it shows just the effect it has on the children when they have to go and stay away from their parents and there's loads of misunderstandings and everything. And it's a lovely exercise in comparing contrast.

Here is ballet shoes for children up to the same. the age of about 12. And there's saplings, which is definitely a book for adults, although I think quite sophisticated children would enjoy it too. But it's interesting to see such rounded, rounded portraits of children, yet she didn't have any herself. So you picked this book up, age seven, got lost in the pages of it, absolutely loved it.

Paint me a picture of what you were like around that time. What were you like as a child? I was the sort of child that mostly sat in a corner and read a book. I did have friends at school, but I wasn't the life and soul of the class. Just occasionally, if something happened, if there was some horrible injustice at school, I could get a bit worked up about it. I remember a friend of mine was in the awful situation. Her mum was dying, and she had to go home at lunchtime.

help care for a mum and then come back to school. And then we were in the girls' toilets and she was crying. So we sort of had a hug and chatting to her. And we were late back to the classroom about 10 minutes late. And the teacher, who was a very good teacher, but horrible man, if you see what I mean. And he shouted at both of us. And he must have known this child's situations. And so I was so angry. Normally I was quite tinid that I said, how dare you talk to Christine like that? Because it's so sad for her. And the whole class froze, thinking, oh, my goodness.

I mean, this was in the days of children being caned. And back in the 50s. And they all thought, she's going to get the cane. She's going to get the cane. She's put her head above the parapet. But I don't know why maybe he felt ashamed. But he suddenly said, right, well, sit down both of you. And that was that.

I mean, I didn't chance my luck. You don't do that twice to that teacher. So I could have my fierce moments, but mostly I was quite quiet. I don't think I was a particularly promising child. My mum really would have liked a funny little show-off with curls, a bit like she adored Shirley Temple as a child with ringlets and doing tap dancing. And I think she would have liked that sort of child. But I was lucky I got a child of my dreams,

but I didn't really have any particular idea of what I wanted her to do and let her pursue life exactly as she wanted to. So I think it's a big mistake when parents think, right, there I am, lumbered with this baby, and she's going to do this and she's going to look like this, which didn't happen. Did there come a point where, after writing these books that are so brilliant, she turned around and said, okay, no, I get it. This is great. I'm proud.

No. She didn't read any of them. Somebody did say to her when I was there, you know, why on earth haven't you read any of Jacqueline's books? And she said, but they're children's books. I'm not a child. And she really, you know, that was her way. But my daughter very dutifully read my books.

And I used to say, now, Emma, please tell me. I would show her the manuscript when she was a child and still living at home and said, tell me what you think of it. And don't worry, I really would love to know if you think we were boring bits or whatever. She was very clever. Oh, it's lovely, ma'am. My partner, when we got together about 20 years ago, and she was a bookstore manager. And she started to read my books and she very much wanted to read the book.

one that I was writing. And I said foolishly, well, do tell me anywhere where you think I'm, you know, sort of gone off track or something, it just isn't working. She sat down and almost immediately, well, I think the beginning could be a bit more interesting or whatever. And after a chapter and a row, we decided never, ever again. This isn't working. So she waits until the book itself comes out.

and then sometimes reads it if it's something that she really thinks would interest her. Well, from a book you first read at the age of seven, we move on now to a book you read at the age of 10. Your second book, Shelby book, is Jane Eyre by Charlotte Ronte. Charlotte Ronte's first published novel was immediately recognised as a work of genius when it appeared in 1847.

Orphoned and subject to the cruel regime at Lower Charity School, Jane Eyre emerges surprisingly unbroken in spirits and integrity. She graduates and takes up the post of governess at Thornfield Hall, where she meets and falls in love with Mr. Rochester in a story that transcends melodrama to portray a woman's passionate search

for a wider and richer life than that traditionally accorded to her sex in Victorian society. Now, from the notes that I got about why you've picked this book, it sounds like you came upon Jane Eyre by accident at a very serendipitous age. I've run out of my own books and we weren't due a trip to the library for several days. I was peering at the small bookcase with the glass front that my parents kept their books in. And there was a sort of red leatherette copy of Jane Eyre, which I thought was pronounced Jane Irene.

Honestly, well, it's not clear, is it? And I thought, I wonder what that's like. And I looked at it and had very small prints. did think, you know, it's going to be much too grown up and boring. But then I read just the first paragraph and it immediately gripped me. It was about a little girl. It was written in the first person. She was fed up and it was raining.

And then as I read on, she has these horrible cousins, particularly the eldest boy and they bully her. It was far sort of stronger meat than the sort of thing that you came across in children's books. and I was just fascinated. And then she is severely told off and put in this room the red room where she knows there's been a ghost and she's terrified. And you don't often in children's books get a child who is tormented like that and then left alone and becomes hysterical. And I just thought, this is it. This is what happens. and I just so believed in Jane.

When she's questioned by a frightening sort of vicar person, religious person, because she's apparently told lies or something or other, and she says, well, you are destined to go to hell. What do you think you're going to do about that? And she looks up at him and says, try something like try to live as long as possible. possible. I just thought that was so wonderful. This, I thought it was just so exciting, so awful, so wonderful. I lost interest at that age of going on and reading about Jane and being a governess and skipped a lot. And I really wasn't very keen on Mr. Rochester either. So I never finished it at that age. But then at school, when I was about 14 or 15, we actually did Jane Eyre as a set book and then I discovered, you know, how much else there is to it. And I don't think I ever fell in love with Mr. Rochester though. He seemed very, very sort of grumpy and patronising,

all the rest of it. But the novelty of having Jane as a heroine who is small and plain and poor, it was just a delight to read. I love that you read it in two sittings, four years apart when you felt ready for that chapter of her life. Looking at the chapters of your life, at that progression, you left school at 16 to become a secretary, but in the end went to work for a new magazine at the time called Jackie in Dundee. Looking back, do you think you were always destined to become a writer? Is that what you wanted?

I knew from the age of six that I wanted to be a writer because I had my tonsils out then and I have vivid memories of the night before my own. operation and my mum was there at the bedside and the person who was going to take my tonsils out came rather sweetly to visit each child and he was a little awkward and clearly didn't know how to talk to children so he said well you know little girl you know I'm it'll be all right don't be frightened and then he he was just trying to think of something he's saying and said what do you want to be when you grow up and I said quite

matter of fact, oh, a writer which startled my mother completely. And he said, oh, I love books. I want to write my own book. So it must have been sort of, you know, at the forefront of my mind even then. And all the time I was at primary school and that was what I wanted to do. And when I was in, it must have been the equivalent of year five, we could all do a project in our exercise books and some people read about football some people wrote about ballades,

some people wrote about nature and I said, you know, please say, can I write a novel? And he had the grace not to laugh at me and it was a silly story but a family story about a family with problems so it's like a little baby version of one of my books and he was quite sweet about it.

And then at secondary school, I very much wanted to impress my English teacher. She was more concerned with my not very good spelling. And she kept on saying that my essays were too colloquial. I did tell her I wanted to be a writer. And she sort of, well, you could work for a publisher, I suppose. So she didn't really think, you know, I was ever going to have any chance at at making it as a writer. But then I saw an advert in a paper

when I was looking for a secretarial job or a typing job when I'd finished my sort of tech secretarial course. And I saw this advert wanted teenage writers for a new magazine. And so I wrote up to, which was D.C. Thompson's in Dundee. And I wrote them several stories

because I'd just been given a typewriter as a birthday present. And amazingly, they bought them. And there I was, earning money, three pounds per story. But then they offered me a job up in Dundee, which was a big challenge for me because then I was 17. I'd never been to Scotland, but I did. And I had two years in Dundee sort of learning my craft as a very junior journalist. and then I had some boyfriends there

and then one of them actually became my fiancé. I mean, it was ridiculous. I got married at 19, but those two years in Dundee were extraordinary years. Maybe I'll write about them sometimes because it was such a different world then. I think a lot of people would love to hear that. Baileys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction

by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Well, your third book, shall be booked today, is The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath. When Esther Greenwood wins an internship at a New York fashion magazine in 1953, she believes she will finally realise her dream to become a writer. It's like it's been written down.

But in between the cocktail parties and the piles of manuscripts, Esther's life begins to slide out of control. Published in 1963, the Beljar is Plath's only novel, originally released under a pseudonym and loosely based on her own life and descent into mental illness. it's become a modern classic and is loved by so many. Now, you first discovered this book in your early 20, so at a similar age to Esther.

Did you find yourself relating to her? Because the story is, you know, we've just been talking about it. It feels very familiar. I totally related to it. And she has, there's a piece in it when she can't quite decide what she wants to do and what sort of person she wants to be. And it's, you know, do you want to be a conventional, mother with children, do you want to have a great writing career? Can you combine them both?

It's an extraordinary story. And it is sad because she does have a breakdown. But it's so beautifully told that prose is so sharp. It's so clever. It's just the most amazing book. I think it's maybe not such a good one for male readers because her view of is very sharp indeed. And there's a hilarious bit when her boyfriend of the time, buddies someone or other, decides that he will show Esther,

just what an amazing man he was and he drops his trousers. And she stares and feels depressed. So something like, all I could think of was chicken gizzards. And he just thought that is so funny. I mean, there is so many. many funny little bits in the book.

And when she describes what it's like when you lose control of your mind and she can't read anything properly anymore and she says the words wiggle up and down on the page, everything she writes in that book is extraordinary. It's very autobiographical. But when you read her letters home to her mother writing about what's happening, or her journals. It's the same story, but not with that wonderful,

clear, gorgeous prose. And it shows that, you know, you can take experiences, but it's the way you write about them that really work. And when it was published, she did say it's my apprentice work and don't take it seriously.

Of course she wanted it taken seriously. And I think and she had some quite indifferent reviews and she was in a very bad place mentally and her marriage detetius had broken up and she'd already long ago made one very serious suicide attempt but I do think this second and sadly successful suicide attempt just after her book was published

it was partly because people aren't saying she's a genius. This is a wonderful, exciting new take on young women and what life can be like and what having a mental illness is like. And I just think that was the final straw that you destroyed, but who knows, you can't get into the head of someone when they're in that state. But I find, I don't find it depressing reading it. I find it uplifting because she might not have been in control of her own feelings in real life, but she was in control in every sentence. And, you know, you can't imagine any editorial changes ever would improve it. It's just perfect the way it is. You said you got married at 19. Yes. You had your daughter and your first book published

at the age of 23. Tell us about your first book because so many of your works do focus on women coming of age growing up? What is it about that transition that speaks to you? I had written, I think, two full-length novels by the time my daughter was born and didn't actually send them anywhere because I thought they're not quite good enough. And then right from when she was little,

I would take Emma to the public library and I'd sit in the young bit of the children's section and finding picture books for us both. And I saw a whole little load of books for young readers and they were called Nippers. And they were about children who lived in council flats or mum and dad were down on their luck or whatever. And which was such a different world away from the Jane and Peter readers

with their lovely gardens and their happy lifestyle. and I was really attracted to these and so I thought maybe I could write one. I took out some of them and saw that there were 32 pages with an illustration on each page and they had about two sentences at most. So I worked out how to do it

and sent it off to, I think it was McMillan who were publishing them and I think they were astonished that somebody right out of the blue without being commissioned or whatever, had actually written something. But amazingly, they bought it. And I thought that was absolutely lovely.

And at the same time, I was writing crime novels for adults. And my husband was a policeman, and it used to infuriate me because people used to say, hmm, I expect your husband gives you all the plots. And no, he didn't. It was all me.

But so, I wrote the crime novels, but they always had children in them. And then my first proper children's book was called Nobody's Perfect. And it was about a girl, I think she was called Sandra, but she liked to call herself Cassandra, because it sounded prettier and more interesting. And she wanted to be a writer. I thoroughly enjoyed writing that book and then sent it off. And it was turned down by several publishers and then the Oxford University Press actually published it but took nine months deliberating over it beforehand and you know I went through agonist thinking about it but at last it got published and then I started off writing a lot writing for different publishers

and then I was taken up by Trans World who were wonderful to work with and then they combined with Random House and now they're combined with penguin so that, you know, it's just been an amazing career and I'm working on

something at the moment which again is something different but, you know, the way publishers are, don't say a word about it so I can't. Or we wait with baited rare. Wait till the autumn.

Let's talk about the fourth book you brought today, which is standard deviation by Catherine Heaney. Graham Kavana's second wife, Audra, is everything his first wife was not. She is charming and spontaneous and fun, but life with her can be exhausting. In the midst of the day-to-day difficulties, delights of marriage and raising a child with Asperger's. His first wife, Elspeth, re-enters Graham's life. A divinely funny novel about the challenges of a good marriage, the delight and heartache of raising children, and the irresistible temptation to wonder about

the path not taken. Now you've re-read this book three times I hear. What is it about it that keeps you coming back? Oh, it's a total joy to read. It's easy to read, but it's profound. She's a very skilled writer, but her characters are, it's interestingly, she's chosen to tell the story from Graham's point of view, who's the sort of man that would love a quiet life. And he's got Audra, who, you know, starts talking about. about the most amazing, intimate things on buses at the top of her voice. But she's warm-hearted and lovely and loves to socialise, whereas Graham is your classic introvert, and he adores her, but is thrown by her over and over again, and then meets up with his first wife,

Elspeth, who's the exact opposite, very cool and calm and in control. and he does just get a little bit tempted to actually have that peaceful life where he knew where he was with Elspeth but things happen within the book that that's not going to happen. I think partly the joy of it too is the way that Audre and Graham,

they might disagree about most things but they are united in their intense love with their little boy Matthew who is sort of on the autistic spectrum a gorgeous child, a vulnerable child. And when the story starts, he's into origami. And he's invited to join this origami club for adults. And there are all these kind of grown-up Matthew people

who all have their pickiness about what they can eat or not eat. I mean, there's one man who will only eat white things. And it's just so, it's disconcerting for order. and Graham. And yet Matthew really shines and he's brilliant at origami. And they even, because they love him so much, go to the most appalling origami convention.

But it's there that Graham makes terrible discovery about Audra that preys on his brain. And there's such tension as you read because you love this couple. And they both love their little boy. And you think, no, please don't shake the boat. You've got to have a happy ending. And it's so clever because they do,

but it's not a fairy tale ending because life isn't a fairy tale. But it's so like real life in that, you know, you so want your child to find the right perfect friend for themselves. And sometimes they do and sometimes they enjoy it or don't. And you just feel so part of their world as if you actually know them. It's so real. And like you say, it isn't a fairy tale ending. These characters are flawed yet endearing, which, you know, sounds a lot like your own characters.

Is it important for imperfection to be represented in literature, do you think? I do very much feel it should. I like to show what real life is like, not the way we would all want real life to be. I like my characters to be a little bit flawed. and if Esther Greenwood is not immediately impressed with her boyfriend's private parts, well, all part of her. Why should she be? You said you picked up standard deviation at Victoria Railway Station for something to read. Did you, dare I say, judge a book by its cover?

Well, I know you shouldn't, but I did feel this book, it hasn't got a great cover. but it was interestingly, and I look at it, the title is on a slant and Catherine Heinz's name is on a slant and the quotes are on a slant and it is a book that is on the slant itself. And we have people like Kate Atkinson, the New York Times, Nigella Lawson and India Knight. Interesting mix of quotes, all saying, they loved it.

And this for me is a book that reading it on a train would be embarrassing because sometimes just her cleverness with words or the sweetness of some outrageous thing that Orda has done, it does meant you snort with laughter. It really does. And then you feel so silly and you look up at people staring at you. Oh, let them stare. I love that you've brought your own pile of books that we're sitting amongst them right now. And we've made our way to the final book in your part.

which is Clockdance by Anne Tyler. Willa Drake can count on one hand the defining moments of her life. At each of these moments, Willa ended up on a path laid out for her by others. So when she receives a phone call, telling her that her son's ex-girlfriend has been shot, she drops everything and flies across the country. A bittersweet novel of hope and regret, fulfillment and renewal, clock dance brings us the everyday life of a woman who decides it's never too late to change direction and choose your own path. that Anne Tyler is your favourite author, which coming from you is high, high praise.

What is it about her writing that you love so much? I just feel she is a genius, and I don't often use that term, but she's just, she's written, I know, about 35 books, maybe coming up for 40. I've read them all. And they're just wonderful in that they show perfectly, ordinary people.

Mostly they're set in Baltimore, which is not the most exciting American city. I remember once when I was in Baltimore and was doing, oh, those were the days a book tour of America, though my books were never particularly popular in America.

And we actually went to a book festival in Baltimore and I was really excited. And I wasn't actually bowled over by the whole city. But you get inside people's heads and they're not brilliant at their jobs,

they're not stunningly beautiful. They are just ordinary people but leading such interesting, quirky lives. And she's particularly good at writing about people who don't quite fit in. The first book of hers that I read was Celestial Navigation. And that was about 35 to 40 years ago.

And ever since then, I've got them all. And I think possibly it's very difficult for me to choose my favourites between accidental tourist or dinner at the homesick cafe. But I thought I will particularly choose clock dance, which is one she wrote relatively recently, because it makes me feel so relieved that Antaile is actually older than me. and yet this book, I think she was just about the same age that I am when she wrote it and it was published. And it's, I think, one of her finest. And it's a little bit inspirational. Maybe you can carry on and carry on and carry on and carry on.

And it's got probably my favorite child in all Anne Tyler's fiction, which is Little Terrell, who's a chubby little kid of, 7, 8, 9, who's basically got a middle-aged attitude to life and looks after her feckless mother is a sort of really in charge of the whole neighbourhood. It's just one of her finest. And let's hope she keeps on writing to that quality. Well, you said that you picked clock dance because Anne wrote it at the age that you are now, which it inspires you.

And you've said that your love of writing, it hasn't wavered. that's definitely still very much the case. As your new book, The Girl Who Wasn't There Comes out on the 7th of March. What can you tell us about this book? That's a slightly different sort of story because it's a ghost story. I have written this book called Vicky Angel, which is a girl who believes or maybe does, I leave it sort of, you make up your own mind, that her friend who's killed in a groad accident has come back to haunt her. So I've written that sort of story, but this is one where there's a ruined tower.

And I've often looked in long journeys. And sometimes you see a kind of folly and a tower not really attached to anything else at the top of a hill. And they always look as if they've got some history to them. And I imagine this crumbling tower. And then I thought, okay, let's have a family, a rather different sort of family. The husband who's been a chef in an upmarket restaurant and then I don't really mention COVID I think by name but it's gone bust and he's a bit stuck and doesn't know what to do

hasn't got much money. He sees this tower which has got a similar name to himself when he's looking through a whole load of quirky property online and so they buy it. And it's clear even to what might be my younger, youngest reader, it's probably not a good idea because it needs an awful lot of work and he doesn't really know what he's doing. And the girl who tells the story, Luda, is the oldest one. And she has a younger sister Aurora. They've got rather fancy names deliberately. And Aurora is one of these

kids who just is a little bit of a show off, but full of sunshine. the one that all the adults coo over and she thinks it's great fun and so they go to live there and there's a strange atmosphere in the tower and then surprisingly Luna has made friends at a new school and is settling in well

Aurora really doesn't want to go to school anyway but when she does it's clear that she's not making friends and then suddenly she starts talking about this girl, Tansy. And Luna doesn't know quite what she's talking about. And it slowly becomes apparent that, well, what is Tansy? Is she making her up? Is she a ghost?

Why has that tower been built? What is going to happen next? And there's a big sort of dramatic scene towards the end. So the girl who wasn't there, another work into the world, another story of yours into the world. I'm going to ask you a really tricky question because I actually have read that you and your partner Trish estimate that you own between 15,000 and 35,000 books between you. You've somehow managed to whittle it down to five that you've brought today.

I'm now going to ask you if you had to choose one book from your list as a favourite and we have the pile here. Which would it be and why? Oh, that's so difficult. I think if it were a book, to cheer me up and make me feel this is a book that I can read again and again. I have to be loyal to Anne and have clock dance. Funnily enough, though, Catherine Hainey, I saw an interview with her online,

and Anne Tyler is her favourite author too. She won't mind. We have a sisterhood here amongst all of the books and the authors. Well, I have absolutely loved hearing about these stories and why they're important. to you. And I'm sure all of our listeners have as well. So thank you so, so much for joining me, Jacquely. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.