Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep12: Bookshelfie: Ria Hebden

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Television presenter and broadcaster, Ria Hebden discusses the importance of identity, how books can inspire massive career changes and why the sky's the limit for her. Ria is the official Entertainment presenter on ITV’s Lorraine, having interviewed  everyone from Robbie Williams to Harrison Ford, to Kim Cattrall, Shania Twain and John Boyega. Her infectious energy and iconic smile make her a TV regular and favourite among viewers, also having hosted shows including All Around Britain on ITV, Sunday Morning Live on BBC One and the BAFTA Film Awards red carpet. Passionate about telling stories that celebrate diversity, champion women and inspire the next generation, Ria founded Wonder Women TV, a women’s network that elevates diverse women who work in Television and the Creative Industries in 2017, and has achieved several National Diversity Award nominations for her work.  Last year, Ria competed as a contestant on ITV’s Dancing on Ice and raised £30K for Lupus UK as a contestant on Celebrity Catchphrase and Celebrity Chase. Ria’s book choices are: ** Their Eyes were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston ** Light is the New Black by Rebecca Campbell  ** The List by Yomi Adegoke ** Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez ** The Good Ally by Nova Reid Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit Harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. where would you like your outreach to take you next? Ooh, I don't know.

To infinity of beyond. You said you were going global. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for season seven of Bookshelfy. the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them.

Join me and my incredible guests, as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2024 reading list. Today, I am joined by broadcaster Ria Hebden. Ria is the official entertainment presenter on ITV's Lorraine, having interviewed everyone from Robbie Williams to Harrison Ford, from Kim Cottrell to Shania Twain and John Boyega. Her infectious energy and iconic smile make her a TV regular and favourite among viewers, also having hosted shows including All Around Britain on ITV, Sunday morning live on BBC One and the BAFTA Film Awards, red carpet.

Passionate about telling stories that celebrate diversity, champion women and inspire the next generation. Ria founded Wonder Women TV, a women's network that elevates diverse women who work in television and the creative industries in 2017, and has achieved several National Diversity Award nominations for her work. Last year, Ria competed as a contestant on ITV's Dancing on Ice. Your hands went straight to your face and raised £30,000 for Lupus UK as a contestant on celebrity catchphrase and celebrity chase. Welcome, Ria. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I know.

The trauma came flooding back as you said that. Oh my gosh, do you have that? Because if I hear that strictly theme tune, do-da-da-da-da-da. I'm like, no. P.G. deep. Yeah. Why is that?

No, I just think because you look back and you think I can't actually believe that I did that. Do you do the same with Strictly? Yeah, it's a bit of a bubble, isn't it? It's a bit of a sort of a hazy dream. Yeah, but the good thing about it was that you, you know, you surprise yourself in what you can actually achieve in a short amount of time. Like, never did I ever think in a million years. I'd learn to ice skate, you know, and then do it on national TV. Not just ice skate.

Dance on the ice. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's mad when you think about it. I know. I just wish I kept it up because I did have a good bum by the end of it. Oh my gosh. Well, it's just pure endorphins, pure fitness. It's so much work. We were actually just having a little giggle in studio about how when you do these shows, you have a microphone on you all the time. And you must remember that. And it's very easy to forget.

Exactly that. Ria, you have interviewed so many people, and I'm sure as well, especially on Lorraine, so many people with books. Do you read every book for each interviewee who comes with a biography or a memoir? I don't have the time. I'll confess. I don't have the time to read all of the book, but I definitely read chunks of it just to get the general gist. And I also read how other people are perceiving it.

So I have a kind of idea of how it's going to be received, but not the full one, because as you know, Vic, we're all very busy. Well, I know this. This is my job. And I absolutely love it. And I love hearing the stories of my guests like. through the books that have shaped them. But as much as I wish I could read every single one,

you bring five to the table each episode, every single one. And then often if they're an author themselves, their book as well, there just wouldn't be enough hours in the day. But you were saying that when you were picking your books to bring today, it sort of told you a lot about yourself that you hadn't really thought about. It's so revealing, isn't it? You know, you kind of look at the history of the things that you've read and the themes that come out of those books.

and that kind of paints a picture of what makes you you and what you're interested in and what you care about. And yeah, it was quite therapeutic in a weird way. I didn't expect that. It is. It's like therapy. We've had tears in this room because we go on these journeys equally. We've had some big laughs. This is a podcast that can go in any direction depending on whether you want to talk about the books.

You want to talk about your life. One thing I noticed, and we'll get into which books you've chosen in just a second. you sort of start around your university years. So we don't have any children's books on the list. No. Was that because you didn't read as much as a child? What point did you discover that you love books? That's a good observation.

I think for me, I read as a child, but the stories that really kind of I connected with deeply were the stories that I started to read when I was at university. So I studied film and television, and American studies at university. I was the first person in my family to go to uni. And because my father is African-American, I was really keen to learn more about that side of me.

And I didn't actually meet my biological father until I was 19. So I was always really interested in learning more about those American roots. And so that's why I chose Zora Nielsen's Their Eyes Were Watching God, because that was one of the first books that I read in American literature, which talked about the Harlem Renaissance. It was a big classic. And particularly about the black female experience and obviously having roots in Memphis, Tennessee

that really spoke to my kind of ancestry. Well, that is your first book, Shelby book, today. Their Eyes were Watching God by Zora Neal Hurston. This 1937 novel is considered a classic, like you said, of the Harlem Renaissance. And Hurston's best-known work, When 16-year-old Janie is caught kissing shiftless Johnny Taylor, her grandmother swiftly marries her off to an old man with 60 acres. Janie endures two stifling marriages before she finally meets the man of her dreams, who offers not diamonds but a packet of flowering seeds.

So you said you read this at university. Can you remember that first impact, how it made you feel, what it made you think? Well, I just thought about how hard she had life and how difficult her experiences were. She goes through lots of trials and tribulations, lots of influences from other people telling her how she should be, how she should act, how she should feel. And the kind of strong themes that came out of that for me were actually the importance of listening to your inner voice and trusting yourself. And so I think as a young woman, you know, going to uni for the first time, meeting all these

amazing people from all over the world, but also learning about disparities between people and different classes. It just really made me kind of think about the world and my place within it. And when you went to uni, whereabouts? Brinnell in London. How stark a difference, how stark a contrast was that to how he'd been brought up and where you'd been brought up? Well, that's interesting. You're asking good questions today. Well, I grew up in Yorkshire And then came back to London I was born in London actually

Grew up in Yorkshire And then came back to London for my college And a university But going to university was interesting Because as you know from your experience You meet so many different people from around the country Don't you? All different walks of life

And you cross past with people That you wouldn't necessarily meet If you're out raving or shopping with friends And I think that was a very unique experience and I've always been very interested in people and understanding people and how some people thrive and others don't. So I think that book in particular really kind of connected with me

because despite her coming from all these hardships, she still had a very strong sense of self. And that's something that I kind of keep with me through life, you know, coming from a working class background in the north but then in the south and, you know, not knowing that kind of part of my African American heritage It's like, but I've always had that inner knowing of who I am and that eagerness to find out a little bit more about that.

So when you were growing up, how much of a connection did you have to that heritage, if any at all? Well, my mother tried very hard to kind of reconnect with my birth father. I had a few kind of phone calls and stuff with my American grandmother. And then when I was about 18, I actually saved up the money and I went to America and I met my American grandmother myself. Oh my gosh. And that was an amazing experience. And I'll never forget when she saw me, she said, child, you ain't your daddy's daughter.

You, your dad is twin. Oh! Which was lovely because, you know, when I saw pictures, I was like, oh my God, like we literally look the same. Yeah. It's really quite scary. If he was to walk down the street, you would be like, Ria, you're related to that man.

So having that experience was very powerful. But, you know, sad that she's passed away now. but she was kind of like my only kind of touch point to that side of my family. So spending that time with her was very precious because she got out the family tree and told us about all these other relatives. And that was kind of the only thing that I'd had that connected me to that part of my background. That is such an incredible experience. And when did you meet your dad?

19. How was that? Well, you have all these feelings of what it's going to be like. And then when you travel to meet them, you just kind of laugh because they look so much like you. You're like, this is so strange. But it felt very familiar and very positive. And he brought my siblings. And it was really emotional and lovely because, again, they all look like clones of me, which are very surreal.

The genes are strong. Yeah. I guess there's so much as well wrapped up in that you've gone through life, looking a certain way, navigating the world, certain way I know it as well I'm also you know mixed race my my mom is Nigerian and having that connection to that part of my heritage is something that has been through peaks and troughs over my life depending on how much I want to you know know how much food I want to cook from Nigeria whether I want to be going back every three years there comes a point where you're like actually want to go older with my friends and it's a relationship yeah that you know

you didn't get to experience for 19 years of your life with so many different branches to it. If someone was to say to you, I think we had it in a previous episode, it was Edwina Dunn who said that the most intimate question someone can ask you when it comes to your identity is, who are you very simply? If I was to say to you now, knowing what you know and having met your dad and put these pieces together, who are you? Who do you feel rea heptan is? Wow, that is huge. I mean, we're so multi-layered, aren't we? There's so many parts of us. But I'm very proudly

mixed race, proudly half American, you know, half English, half Yorkshire. Very proud of my northern roots and northern family. But I think Ria Hebden is joy and happiness and positivity and

you know I'm the number one cheerleader for all the girlies, you know, and looking back at all these books that I've selected, that is a really strong theme that it's all about kind of womanhood and sisterhood. and that strength, that inner, you know, strength to overcome adversity. Did you feel like this book gave you strength? I think it gave me a connection to my American roots in a deep way that I never thought it would.

It's weird, isn't it? It's amazing what a book can do. Yeah. I think as well you read it at a time, university, that's such formative years, when you're really working out who you are, who you want to be, how you want to move around the world. and you're reading about yourself. You're reading about your background.

It's an education. And it actually just reminds me how important it is that, you know, the subjects that you choose to study, what if I'd have studied something else and never read those books? Would I have connected with myself on that deep level? In the same way, I just don't know if I would. Well, on the subject of the joy and the positivity that you are, the way that you would like to describe yourself,

we move on to your second brute-shelphi book, which is Light is the New Black by Rebecca Campbell. Rebecca Campbell had her first awakening when she was a teenager, but without anyone to guide her, she ignored her soul's callings and dimmed her light in order to fit in. Then, just before her 30th birthday, the life she had so consciously created began to crumble around her. It was as if the universe had turned off all the lights,

so she had no choice but to rediscover her own. In this inspirational book, Rebecca shares her own healing journey alongside practical tools to help you reconnect with the core of your being and channel messages from the universe. This international bestselling book has helped hundreds of thousands of people all over the world to create a life that is in deep alignment with their soul. Now, you credit this book with making you leave behind your career as a publicist to pursue your dreams of becoming a television presenter. Tell us more about that. Yeah, I remember this was a book that was given to me, actually, for my birthday by a family friend. And I remember one weekend going to like a spa for the weekend just to kind of relax and recharge. And I read the whole thing in like a day.

And I remember like flicking back and thinking, God, this is such a positive book. And I bought it. I think I bought like four copies for best friends and shared it with them. And I've continued to buy it for friends because I'm going to get it for you. I do. I think it's a really life-affirming book. And what I love about it is pepper throughout it that have these really positive mantras and affirmations.

And I think wherever you are in your life, whether you're reconsidering a different career path or just kind of questioning your purpose in life, there's something that everyone can take away from it. It was just so powerful. And I often go back to it, especially when I feel like a door is closing and I'm a bit kind of nervous about the new one opening

because we never know what that's going to be. It's a very reassuring book to encourage you to lean into the unknown, the uncomfortable and trust the journey. It's very powerful. So talk to me about that transition because you were a publicist. Yeah. You know, it's not a million miles away from what you do in terms of the world that you're in. But it's a completely different job.

Oh, totally. And at the time, you know, it was very high risk for me to leave that job because at the time my son was four years old, I was the breadwinner, I was in a very well-paid, well-secured job from a massive global entertainment company and always in the television space, but publicising programs and the talent that present them.

And I knew just sitting there the day I decided I was going to leave, that it was going to be so risky, you know, but then I thought, you need to get out the way. You're sat here in someone's dream job. You need to move out of the way. way and go for your dreams because otherwise you'll regret everything and you know you can see your kind of career trajectory going like that but you're like is that what you really want though why are you really doing what you want to do and so I remember deciding right rather than sitting here writing

five-year PR strategies for this franchise I'm going to leave and write a five-year strategy for rhea hebden the presenter and what does that five-year strategy or what did that five-year strategy look like well Vic what's quite amazing is a lot of those things have come true. Isn't it great? It's amazing. I tell you, the power of visualisation and intention is real. Let me delia.

Looking back, do you think there were any early signs that you were destined for a TV presenter life? So when I was six, I had a very strong feeling when my grandmother took me to the National Museum of Film and Photography in Bradford. And it was ever so clever. They had this makeshift TV station. And my grandma sat me in the presenter's church.

and they had the pretend cameras and all the lights. And I just remember sitting there and feeling this really strong feeling of being really happy and very content and not nervous, just like, this is absolutely where I want to be. And just really knowing that that was what I wanted to do, obviously it took a very long time. But it was always there sort of in the back of your mind. Oh, yeah. And like when I look back on being a student stuff, you know, I studied media at college, I studied film and television at university.

My first ever job was in TV production. So I've always loved watching telly, talking about tele, you know, presenting telly. Why do you think you love telly so much? I think it's storytelling. You know, when I speak to some of my childhood friends, they always say, Ria was always in the playground, first thing in the morning. Say, did you watch that thing last night on TV? It's a brilliant film.

It was about this, isn't this. And it's just what I always used to do. So it feels quite surreal sometimes when I'm sat on the sofa with Lorraine like talking about the BAFTAs or whatever. And I'm just like, you've been doing this all your life. Yeah. But I can see how you could fall into that sort of publicity route as well because what you're essentially doing there, big in it up to everyone. Absolutely. Watch this.

Yeah. And, you know, for people listening, it's important to know that there are so many different jobs in this industry. It's not always about being the director or the presenter. there are so many things where you can, you know, implement your skills and experience, and that's the beauty of it as well. For anyone who is listening, who's interested in a career in TV and in journalism, broadcasting, do you have any advice that you give? Oh, so the kind of key things I always say is to obviously watch lots of television films,

diversify the platforms and news outlets that you listen to, though, so that you get a real varied opinion, obviously get lots of experience. obviously get lots of experience so shadow people if you can reach out to people that are already doing what you love and ask for advice reach out to people on LinkedIn join groups

but practice your craft I think you learn a lot from making mistakes and filming in different environments and just chatting to people I think that's key isn't it been a people person and taking yourself out of your comfort zone

we mentioned just before 2020 doing dancing on ice which is so far out I mean it's out of anyone's comfort zone unless you are literally Torval and Dean. They were amazing. They're so amazing. Why did you do it?

Why is it important that we all take ourselves into these situations so far out of the norm for us? Oh, it's just so good for the soul, right? I mean, you grow when you lean into being uncomfortable. It's so easy and lazy to stay in the same place. And I think you've got this one life, right? You've just got to squeeze a pips out of it and live it, right? I really mean that. I remember going to the Women of the World Festival in South Wales.

bank years ago and I saw the late Iris Ipfell speak and she was so fabulous and she said squeeze the pips out of life and I spoke to her afterwards and I said oh I've just done this big scary thing I've just left my job and I'm going to just go for it being a presenter and she's like just go for it you've got to go for it and and I think that she's absolutely right you've you've really got to go for things because you don't want to be old and looking back on your life and having all these regrets that you never went for it as well as well as well as you've well as taking those big steps, those risks and being inspired as this book inspired you, it's also a book about healing, which in many ways is kind of tied up with taking those steps.

Are you a spiritual person? Tell me about how you feel about healing. I'm definitely a spiritual person. I remember as a child never being able to fully connect to one particular faith and I was very thankful that my parents didn't christen me. I went to a church of England school, but it was very diverse and we learned we wasn't actually very diverse at all it was me and one of the girl called carly and everyone thought it was sisters because we were mixed race people I know it but I mean it was diverse and its teaching of different face so we learned lots about different face in the world but yeah I always remember not really wanting to choose one particular faith over others and so I was quite thankful that my parents didn't choose a faith for me

left it open so I could choose one for myself and the more reading I've done as I've got older I've learned more about the spiritual side of things and that just connects with me a bit more deeply. So when I read Rebecca Campbell's book, I just thought, oh, this is interesting because this is kind of what you experience where you just have this in a tuition and you feel energies from people.

And I mean, like literally, if you've done bad things, Vic, I can feel it. And have I? No. You're good, you're good. But sometimes I'll walk down the street and some walk past me and I'll be like, whoo, that energy is off.

Energy is everything. Everything. Oh, it's everything. Yes. Those vibrations. And trusting your gut as well, which I know is a theme in this book. So important. So important.

But also healing. I think everybody has things that they can work on to learn more about themselves. And I think certainly since I became a mother and having a daughter and a son, I've learned so much about how we imprint things on children, but also how we do it differently based on if they're a boy or a girl. Right. And I find that really interesting because I'm like, why is that? You know, it's just interesting.

Because I try and treat them both the same, but I see other people treating them differently because of their gender. And do you sometimes feel like you have to catch yourself if you... Oh, yeah. Often I'm correcting people saying, no, no, no, she's a big strong girl. You know, like if she falls over, let's not like panda and stuff. If she's hurt, give her a cuddle and give us some love, you know, I'm not hard. But it's just interesting how other people can treat them differently dependent on.

on their gender. And so I'm very aware of how society can imprint and condition people. And I think that is a whole part of healing and unpacking all of that. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat,

whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baileys.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. It's time, Ria, to talk about your third book-shelphi book, which is the list by Yomi Adagoke. Hola, Ola Gide, a high-profile feminist journalist and a leading magazine is marrying the love of her life in one month's time. She and her fiancée Michael seem to have it all.

That is, until one morning when they both wake up to the same message. Oh my God, have you seen? the list. It began as a list of anonymous allegations about abusive men. Now it's been published online. Ola made her name breaking exactly this type of story, but today Michael's name is on there. Will the truth behind the list change everything for both of them? Now this is the book that you've read most recently. Is that right? What did you enjoy about it? I think it's just a big call to action to everybody when they see things in the ether and spreading and things going viral to just take a pause,

absorb it, check the credentials, check the credibility of where, you know, the information's come from before you share it. Because with today's technology, things move like wildfire, right? And I think this book's brilliant at kind of highlighting the damaging effects that tweets or features can do when they're shared. rapidly without context or really checking facts and stuff. It's so topical. It's just got that talkability factor.

And you kind of, you whittle through it and you just think, God, this would be your worst nightmare if it happened to you, right? So I read it on holiday girlfriends and I've bought it for a few other friends as well just because I want to support Yami's work. I think she's a brilliant author, but I think it's very relevant for the current climate that we're in in spreading misinformation and, you know, just everyone being a bit quick. to react. I love how many times you have mentioned buying books for your friends. I think it's really important. If you get, yeah, if you have a good read, share the love. Yeah. Share the wisdom. It's important.

Yeah. Do you find that amongst your your friendship group, you, you turn to books as a topic of discussion quite a lot. Yeah, sometimes actually, we do. Yeah, that's in hindsight. Yeah, we do. If I've not bought them books, they'll say, oh, I'm reading this at the minute. I mean, when you've got, kids it's quite difficult to weave in the time to do it but I've recently changed my morning routine so rather than waking up in the morning and consuming the news because it can be so heavy as we know I've actually switched up and instead I'll get a coffee sit in bed for an hour and read yeah and I'm finding that I just start my day so much more happier chilled no stress no anxiety no worrying about the world it's amazing isn't it how we choose to go into the day and

I recently came off social media for a month just I was away I didn't want to know what was going on in the world I basically put my phone down for a month and didn't look at it and there was one day I caught sight of the news you know the Apple news that your iPhone could show yeah and it was all so catastrophic because it's important to be aware of what is going on in the world to engage where we can help and and to know the truth and the fact but equally I won't have the energy to do anything positive if I'm so weighed down. I call it being world-whelmed because we just

know too much about things that don't necessarily consider us. It's just so much. Doom and gloom. Yeah. I know. And also, you know, I think on just a very kind of basic human level, it's like, what can you actually do to help any of those things, you know? I don't think we're completely powerless, but at the same time, it's like, what does that do to your mental health if you're constantly been barred with that kind of content, you know? And I do think, you do have the power to choose how much you consume. And I love the fact that you switched off for a whole month. I get a bit jittery after a week or so if I tried,

but I'm going to give it a go. Maybe in a quieter month. The first day is the hardest. And you're like, oh, there's surely important things I must see. After that, you kind of forget about it. Yeah, I remember as a kid, my mum, when we go on holiday, she would take our watches off us. And she'd like, it doesn't matter what day it is, what time is because we're on holiday.

And I try and do that with my kids because I think actually that's really important because then you're fully present and you you let go of everything else don't you and you actually have a proper holiday when it comes to you know you talked about wanting to press this book into your friend's hands that feeling of you've got to read this there's so much to unpack there's so much to discuss here where do you get your recommendations from um Lorraine actually Lorraine often it's amazing consumes books like there's no tomorrow It's that meme of Lorraine. It's not a meme.

It's like a montage video of every time she's gone, I really saw myself in this. She's read, but she's read every book. And she's really connected with so many. She interviews so beautifully about books and she loves them. She should do a Lorraine Book Club, really. I mean, I think it's waiting to happen, does it? Yeah, I know you mean.

But Lorraine recommends a lot of books. My girlfriends recommend books when we have our like catch-up brunches and stuff. But I also read the reviews and stuff, you know, in magazines and yeah and do you tend to go for fiction or nonfiction reads because of course this is fiction but we've got a real mix in your bootshelfy choices today

do you prefer one over the other? I think fiction's good when you're on holiday reading because you completely escaped don't you but for me I'm very absorbed in the autobiographies like I love things like becoming Michelle Obama I loved

Viola Davis's book finding me again two strong women of colour overcoming hardship but you know achieving extraordinary things it's i find that kind of the strength and that inner will so it's just so inspiring yeah yeah you know you mentioned um viola davis there michel obama and and you said when you were talking about the list yomi you know someone that you want to support oh yeah how important is that it's so important to to back british writers especially British female writers. Yomi, of course, wrote Slay in Your Lane, which is a brilliant book as well.

And she's, you know, it's refreshing. It's really refreshing. She's doing really great stuff in the space and I love to see it. Well, talking of supporting women uplifting them and their voices, your fourth book is Invisible Women by Caroline Creelope. Invisible Women shows us how, in a world largely built for and by men, we are systematically ignoring half the population. It exposes the gender data gap, a gap in our knowledge that is at the root of perpetual systemic discrimination against women,

and that has created a pervasive but invisible bias with a profound effect on women's lives. Award-winning campaigner and writer Caroline Creero-Perez brings together an impressive range of case studies, stories and new research from across the world that illustrate the hidden ways in which women are forgotten and the impact this has on their health and well-being and are lots of women who have found this book in particular so eye-opening. So tell me how you came to read it. It was quite random.

I just finished interviewing Gloria Gaynor. Amazing. As you do. Of course. In Manchester. And I jumped on the train and was heading back to London. And I sat next to this young girl who was writing a presentation pitch for a meeting that she had the next day.

And the book was on the table. And so I just kind of saw the title and was like, oh, what's that about? I'm a bit nosy me. Have you noticed? Oh, it's good. It's part of it. This is how we get the stories. Totally.

And so I was like, what are you reading there? And she said, oh, it's just eye opening. And I said, oh, why so? And she said, I'll have a little look. So I had a read of it. And I was like, oh, I'm going to buy this. This is fascinating. Because I've never read anything that kind of revealed how things that are designed

and structured were designed with men in mind. And so that's why our. experience of, say, certain products or things is a bit clunky because it wasn't ever designed for us exactly, if that makes sense. So an example would be seatbelts in cars. They're designed on a male body. So women generally are quite, they're shorter than men, unless we're tall like you, Vic. And so we're nearer to the steering wheel. So unfortunately, in car accidents, were like 17% more likely to die because of how the seatbelts are designed.

I mean, that's just one of many random things. I mean, another one would be heart attacks. So doctors, male doctors, studied more men who had heart attacks. And so they identified that when people have a heart attack, they get that pain in the left hand side of their chest. But for women, we don't necessarily feel that when we have a heart attack.

We get pain in our stomach, apparently. So loads of women who were presenting symptoms of a heart attack are turned away from the hospital because it's not deemed as something that, you know, they normally would recognise as textbook for heart attack and then they die. I mean, women's reproductive research is, I mean, testament to that fact. Yeah.

And the lack of lack thereof of research into contraception and the effect it has on our health. All the things, which is why. it's so important to get more women and girls into STEM subjects, right, so that we can kind of mix up that data. But I read this book and was just like, this is extraordinary. I've never even thought about the things that we use every day and who designed them and have they considered us when they've made them. So it was quite mind-blowing and it's a really interesting read. In terms of creating space for women, you are doing your own work in this arena alongside presenting.

You've established Women's Network, Wonder Women TV. What challenges did you see that you wanted to address? So I created Wonder Women as a way of championing diverse women who work in TV, who are at mid-senior level in television. There's a lot of brilliant work in the industry happening at the kind of grassroots level to help entry-level people. But coming up in television myself, I was lucky to work alongside some brilliant female leaders. But at the time, there wasn't this kind of sharing of how they got to where they are

and there wasn't any mental groups or panel discussions that existed. And so I thought, this just doesn't need to be so hard. I'm going to create the kind of network that I always wish existed, that people can join, become part of, learn more about the different roles in the industry, but also crucially learn how to sidestep in their careers, how to sidestep genres, how to juggle family life, if they choose to have children, all of that.

And yeah, really try and help elevate the women in the industry to senior leadership positions because there are still so few at the top. It's an industry as well. It's so often about who you know. Not entirely. I feel like sometimes that's a phrase that gets misconstrued. It's not who you know over what you know or time and place. It's about putting yourself in those times.

It's about putting yourself in those places at the right times and doing the work. But having a support network, people that you, know who you can turn to, who you can talk to is so underrated. It's crucial. I mean, it really determines whether you'll thrive in this sector or not. Having a support network is key. And often what happens, which can be tricky because that's how bias comes in, but people are recommended for work, aren't they, to their network and to their contacts and their friends. And that's how you get your next gig, you know, while you're building your name. So it is a really crucial part. And so helping to create that community has been a really proud moment for me and I'm really proud of the fact that

we've evolved now to run a year-long mentoring program that helps 30 women from across the country we have live events throughout the year we've got an all-day conference at bafter where you can come for the whole day and be with other women in the sector and network and that's led to people getting jobs so it's it's really doing the work so no it's really it's wonderful it supports on so many levels, especially when you think about how so often we've been pitted against each other, as diverse, in inverted comments, as women of colour, particularly in this industry, you're encouraged to see each other as competition when really, if we support one another, the space for us all. Totally. And I wonder, who decided that? Exactly. Who decided that? Because actually, as you

know, all the presenters we know, we're all mates. Yeah. We all know each other. We all support each other's projects, works, it's that, isn't it? And it never needs to be one or the other. It can be both. Yeah. We can all do this work. We're all unique. We all have different things to offer. And that realization is one that has, you know, has been attained by some, but we're not quite there yet. So what hopes do you have for the future of both Wonder Women TV and television in general? Oh, television in general is a tough one. It's a tricky time at present. But we're doing some really

exciting things with Wonder Women. We're scaling our mentoring program to be able to support more people internationally as well, which I'm really, really proud of. And who knows, worlds are oyster, right? But I love the fact that I'm seeing how it's grown and the ripple effect that it's creating in the industry because people are now coming up to me and saying, I went to your conference. That was really amazing. I got a job through that. So thank you so much. And, or because I came to your Wonder Women Live event, like, you know, I was so inspired by the people on the panel, I'm going to stay in this industry and keep going because you've shown me that it's possible. It's that for me that absolutely motivates me because I think, yeah, this is purposeful work. Which feels like a

perfect place to talk about the good ally. Oh yeah. Have you read this one? I haven't. I'm ready to hear all about it. Your fifth and final book today. It's by Nova Read and the good ally is an urgent call to arms to become better allies in this case against racism and provides a thoughtful approach centering collective healing to do so. It's a book for those against persistent racial injustice, hungry to expand their knowledge and understanding of systemic racism in Britain and beyond. It uncovers the roots of racism and its birthplace anti-blackness. Why have you chosen this book? I've chosen this book because I think it has the power to make all of us better human beings. It's such a good book. It's so good that I've actually invited Nova to be

a keynote speaker at the conference at BAFTA late this year. Yeah. Because I just think amplifying her work's really important. When George Floyd was sadly murdered, I was contacted by so many people, so many viewers who were really struggling to understand what they'd seen, really struggling to talk to their children

about what was happening in the world and why people were really upset. And also personally really struggling with having to find words to articulate racism to my son, whose best friend is black, you know, like so many things. It was so complex. And also when he died, you know, for many people who are of colour, that was like seeing one of their family members die. You know, it's very, very traumatic. I remember having to take a whole day just to process that and just, you know, I remember saying, it sounds really ridiculous now, but I remember saying to my husband, I just, I'm going to just go paint the garden fence.

Can you just let me do that? Look after the kids. Like, feed them, keep them alive, keep them happy. But I just need to just do something that's nothing to do with social media or speaking to anyone because it was so upsetting and distressing. So for me, this book is so powerful because it's written by someone who, you know, is an avid campaigner who has done the work. She's so articulate. She's so smart. And she creates almost like a safe space for, you know, is a avid campaigner, who has done the work. She's so articulate. She's so smart. and she creates almost like a safe space for people to just read the book, understand people's experiences, but also reflect on how they could be better as a friend, as a family member, as a colleague. And it gives lovely little takeaways and tips and advice so that, you know, for some people who just really don't know what to say or what to do, they're a tangible examples of ways you can do the work. I've shared it with my husband who's white, he thinks it's brilliant.

You know, we shared it to family members, friends who don't really know what to say when things like this come up in the news. And I do, I think just generally, if everyone read that, we'd all just be better human beings. What do you think books like this can teach us that perhaps other mediums can't? I think compassion, because there's nobody arguing back straight away, we don't get an immediate reaction. you're just alone in your own space absorbing the words. I think it creates that space for compassion. And like I said, a patience to personally reflect on your part in it.

Even though you might not be doing anything, we all do play a part in being complicit if we don't do something. You said it was hard to find the words around that time to process, to navigate, to express what's going on and how you feel, because you're also a human being for whom there are so many thoughts and feelings. You don't know what kind of traumas it could be bringing up. I remember around that time.

I actually went on Lorraine to talk about Blackout Tuesday. Everyone was putting black squares on the media. It's sort of a music industry thing, but I remember even feeling a little ill-equipped because I realised that my experience didn't speak to that of everyone. And everyone's coming from different places, having had different conversations and myself and my brother went away after this

and realised that we needed to talk about and unpack a lot of stuff that had happened to us when we were growing up that we had put in a box for such a long time and that I was still finding the language to speak about racism on a personal level. When you were growing up, how much had you talked about it?

No, because I suppose well, as a child, you know, I have my white mother my stepdad who raised me, who is mixed race. So that definitely helped me feel connected to my black side of the family, despite not meeting my biological dad until I was 19. But certainly growing up in a very white part of West Yorkshire, you know, like I said, in my primary school, I was like one of two kids of colour.

And we, you know, everyone thought we were sisters. It's a classic. It's a classic. I think when you're a child, you don't understand what racism is. And I don't think you know how to deal with it. I think maybe having, I didn't really ever have any conversations with my stepdad on like how to deal with racism. He was always very strong for me though. He'd always encouraged me to not listen to bullies and things like that.

But we never really had a chat about being mixed race. it's more when we've been older and certainly when I have my children because you think about what their colouring is going to be like and what their experience is going to be like and I remember talking with my stepdad saying well you know because I've had my children

with my husband who's white their experience will be very different from mine because they're lighter but I was really proud that they've got my nose do you feel like you said that you know when you're a kid you don't fully understand racism what's going on around you do you feel like

with the amount that we're exposed to so much. I mean, the fact that we even saw George Floyd's death is incomprehensible. Yeah. You know, 10 years ago when we weren't sharing videos, seeing a brutalized black body with such clarity. It shouldn't be the case, and yet here we are. Do you think it can either desensitize us

or actually shock us even further? Do you think kids maybe do understand now, especially in light of these conversations that we've been very consciously having? I think we've got to be really careful in protecting children actually because there's so much good that comes from technology in all the different apps. You know, we're able to shine a light on what's happening in different parts of the world and also see how people are doing things differently, which is brilliant because it inspires conversation and progress. But at the same time, we do have to be really mindful when we share things, especially without trigger warnings and also how visible things are to children because we mustn't forget their children. They're so precious and they get that one childhood and we've got to be really careful about what they see for sure.

When I was sent George Floyd's killing on WhatsApp, I was so upset because it was sent to me by a WhatsApp group of journalists that I'm in. And no one sent a trigger warning and it was like 7.30 in the morning I'm eating my breakfast and I, you know, like it was horrendous. So we have to be really careful about that because it's, I don't think we'll ever run the, the risk of becoming desensitized, but I just think we've got to remember our humanness, right? I remember around the time, and I think I said this to Lorraine, I want to shout and I want to help and I want to do as much as I can, but equally, I am so tired because I have been talking about this. And, you know, my friends are all asking me, have you got a book that I can read? Can you educate me? And actually, you find quite a lot pressure put on you to have all the

answers and I was like I don't I'm not an expert I'm just a woman I'm just a woman who exists and has experienced certain things but we have a platform and you know I said at the beginning in your intro as well you raised 30k for lupus UK on various celebrity quiz show do you think with your platform it's important to give back absolutely absolutely I think that's why I say with wonder women it's purposeful work it doesn't feel like work because you know at at its core our values are all about elevating others and also crucially the most underrepresented in our industry

because their stories are valid, their experiences are unique and they've got so much to give and to enrich this industry. So absolutely always giving back. Where would you like your outreach to take you next? Ooh, I don't know. To infinity of beyond.

You said you were going global. And looking to the future and any other goals or bucket list shows that you've ticked off dancing on ice now? Oh, strictly. Would you? Would you? Would you?

Well, I think it'll be a dance site easier than dancing on ice, don't you? I mean, crucially, you're just dancing on the floor. Yeah, there's no blades on my feet this time. I mean, God. Because I had not just the stress of learning a whole routine on ice on a live show, you know? It's like all those things.

So I think doing a studio, a dance routine, that feels like a brazen comparison. It's like when athletes train at altitude so that when they come back down to sea level, it's easier. You trained on ice ready for the dance floor. How hard can it be now? Did you have a lovely time, though? I did, it's magical.

It's completely bonkers. Yeah, it's a whirlwind. Yeah, a real whirlwind. I think the best advice that anyone can give you, and I remember Daisy Lowe giving me this advice, she said, just enjoy it. And I was like, yeah, obviously, no, no, no, You really have to actively remember to engage and enjoy it.

Otherwise, you just get swept away with everything that's going on, the pressure. And I'm caring so much about dancing. Don't worry about dancing. It's just a dance show. It's just an entertainment show. Have fun. Totally. I mean, like, Lukash and I laughed so much every day.

And it's like withdrawal symptoms when you go out because you don't see each other anymore. You realize, we're like best mates. He was like, my avatar. The trust you have to build. each other when your tails connect you know and you get on the eyes together you put your life in their hands because they're whizzing you around like there's no tomorrow you know but no the most exhilarating experience well my final question to you rhea is if you had to choose one book from your list and it has been quite it's been quite a range which i think have taken you on different

journeys you said you know the journey as a whole but each of them are little mini journeys in themselves What would be your favourite and why? Oh, it's really hard to choose, actually, because they're all very powerful. And they've all got a very powerful message that has helped me in some kind of stage of my life. But I think if I had to choose one, it would be... Oh, I'm torn.

I'm torn between. What are you torn between? I'm torn between Light is the New Black, Rebecca Campbell, because that's important soul work. And I'm torn between Nova Reeds, The Good Alice. because I think that's a really important book all human beings should read to be a better human. I'm going to let you have two.

Oh, thanks. Is that allowed? I'm going to say it's allowed. I'll be honest, it's neither here nor there, really. You're not actually being sent to a desert island, so you can choose to. Thank you so much, Ria. Thank you.

To infinity and beyond. Oh, I love that. Thank you for having me. I'm Vic Hope, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.