Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep17: Bookshelfie: Tracy Chevalier

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

Tracy Chevalier is an award-winning American-British novelist of 11 books, including the immensely popular Girl with a Pearl Earring, which has sold over 5 million copies worldwide and was adapted into a film, which was nominated for three Academy Awards.  Tracy has also edited anthologies such as Why Willows Weep, a collection of tales from the woods to raise money for the Woodland Trust, and Reader, I Married Him, a collection of short stories commissioned to mark the 200th anniversary of Charlotte Brontë. In addition to her writing, Tracy has been actively involved with various organisations including the Royal Literary Fund, Patron of the Dorchester Literary Festival and the Woodland Trust. Tracy’s latest novel, The Glassmaker, follows a family of Venetian glassmakers from the Renaissance to present day. Tracy’s book choices are: **Little House in the Big Woods by Laura Ingalls Wilder ** Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison ** Restoration by Rose Tremain ** Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood ** Life After Life by Kate Atkinson Little House in the Big Woods by Laura Ingalls Wilder was illustrated by Garth Williams. Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. You know, I have people around me who were looking after me in subtle ways, but certainly books were very important, a touchstone. And they still are. I can't imagine not reading every day. You know, it's like brushing your teeth. With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world.

I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 7 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2024 reading list. Today I am joined by Tracy Chevalier. Tracy is an award-winning American British novelist of 11 books, including the immensely popular Girl with a Pearl Ear.

which is sold over 5 million copies worldwide and was adapted, of course, into a film which was nominated for three Academy Awards. Tracy is also edited anthology such as Why Willows Weep, a collection of tales from the woods to raise money for the Woodland Trust, and Reader I Married him, a collection of short stories commissioned to mark the 200th anniversary of Charlotte Bronte. In addition to her writing, Tracy has been actively involved with various organisations, including the Royal Literary Fund, patron of the Dorchester Literary Festival, and the Woodland Trust. Tracy's latest novel, The Glassmaker, follows a family of Venetian glassmakers

from the Renaissance to the present day, which sounds right up my street, and I cannot wait to talk about it. Welcome to the podcast, Tracy. Thank you for having me. Now, I know you are self-described as a readerholic as a child. When did I say that? I have a quote. I have a quote.

I'm actually going to scroll down. That's okay. It's okay. We did say that somewhere. What? kind of books interested you as a child. What did you gravitate towards? Well, I used to go to the public library. I grew up in Washington, D.C., and I'd walk to the public library every week, and Mrs. Carney, the children's librarian, would save aside a book for me, and she'd hand it over, and I'd get that,

plus other books. I was a really bookish child, so I'd go home and read them all, and then the next week I would come in and Mrs. Carney would say, what did you think of the Witch of Blackbird Pond or whatever? And we talk about it. It was like this little mini book club. So she broadened my reading and also she would say the magic words, I think you might be old enough for this. Let's just give it a try. And she pushed me forward. It was wonderful. So I read a lot across the board. But my favorite books from my childhood were the Little House in the Big Woods series by Laurie Ingalls Wilder. And I know Mrs. Carney kept an eye on what I was reading, and we even created a Little House club of which I was president. I think there were three of us, and I was the president

when I was about seven years old. And I read those books, and loved them, particularly the first one, Little House in the Big Woods. I don't know if you've ever read it. It's a book about autobiographical children's novel about Laura Ingalls and her family, who are a pioneer family, who move west increasingly over the series, looking for homesteads, places to settle down, and building log cabins and meeting bears and doing all sorts of pioneer things in the woods in the 19th century. and I just loved those books. I know that's one of the books that you've chosen,

so we're going to get into that in just a moment. But as the years went on and you became a writer, did your reading habits shift? Did they change, or were you still looking for that sort of escape? I think I'm always looking for escape, both in reading and in writing. But I think, for me, the best balance of a novel is when you're reading it for entertainment,

but by the end of it, you realized you've learned a lot. And I think that's sort of what I try to do with my writing. I don't want to be didactic, but I think it's really important to be interested in things that we don't know anything about and want to find out about because it makes us more textured as people. You said that the most important part of a writer's education is reading. You have to love reading.

You have to be crazy about books. and that's not just education in terms of research, you know, what goes into the book, but I guess the world building, the characters, the empathy. Of course. And I think, you know, you learn so much from reading books about storytelling, how to tell a story, how to tell it in a classical way, in a different way, what it is readers expect. And I'm always puzzled by people who say to me,

oh, yeah, I'm writing a novel or I have an idea for a novel. And then I ask them what they're reading, and they aren't reading. Oh, I don't have time to read. And I think, what? That would be like a musician never listening to other musicians. Why would you do that? You know, you have to really be passionate. And particularly if you're writing a novel, it takes a while.

And you need to be completely into what you're writing about and really care about what books are and what books do in order to be able to write them yourself. Before we started recording, we were just talking about how there is now the Women's Prize for nonfiction, as well as the Women's Prize for fiction. Do you read much nonfiction? I mean, you must when you're researching, especially historical novels. I do read for research nonfiction a lot, but it's a different kind of reading because I'm taking notes and I'm looking for the stories in it and for the inspiration and how to be accurate with history. but for my for my pleasure I tend to read fiction more than nonfiction it's it's faster it's easier nonfiction such sometimes feels a little bit like the writer is trying too hard to educate me and I don't

really I push back against that whereas a novel if it's slipped in it's fine you've learned something without feeling like you're learning something and then when you let those stories leave you and and you put them on the page. You write by hand. It feels like this real flow. Yeah, it is all about flow, really. I do write by hand. I don't know why I suppose I have tried writing directly onto the computer.

And I do that for a nonfiction piece for a magazine or something or an email, obviously. But for writing fiction, I need to. to think about each word as I'm writing it down. And I actually write a lot more slowly by hand than I type. I type fast. And typing into the computer just feels a little bit inorganic. I mean, these are all buzzwords, like, oh, it's organic. But nonetheless, there is kind of a direct to me connection between my brain and my hand,

writing hand, not typing hand. And so as I write a sentence, it's more laborious. So I'm thinking about each word. And also, once I've got it on the page, you know, when you have it on the page on the screen, it's all beautifully typeset practically. And you just think, oh, I don't really need to fix any of this because it looks good. And you mistake it looking good for it actually being any good. Whereas the writing by hand, you're crossing things out as you go, you're moving things around.

You can see the roadmap of your brain, of what you're. you're thinking and of what you're writing. Whereas on the Word document, it just kind of gets rid of all of that, those changes that you make. So I like to see that roadmap. Of course, I do use the computer at the end of the day or every few days of writing. I'll type in what I've written. I'm not a Luddite, and I use it to edit. But even so when I finish a draft, then I print the draft out.

I don't go back and read it on the screen. That's like, oh. I look at it on the page. and I correct it on the page and change things, and then I make the correction. So it is a little more laborious, but it works for me. Better for the eyes as well? Less blue light going in.

This is very true. We were just talking about how we're looking at too many screens. Let's talk about the books that have shaped you. And you mentioned the first one that we're going to touch on your first book-shelphie book is Little House in the Big Woods by Laura Ingles Wilder. Inside the Little House in the Big Woods live the Ingles family. Ma, Pa, Mary, Laura, and Baby Carrie. Outside the little house are the wild animals, the bears and the bees, the deer and the wolves.

This is a classic tale of how they live together, in harmony mostly, but sometimes in fear. Tell me when you read this book, how old were you? Wow, you really summarized that so much better than I did earlier. Fantastic. I'm going to remember all of that. I was, I think, seven. Okay. And it's an enchanting book. The whole series is, in part because it has every few pages and illustration. I think his name is Gareth Williams, and they are just wonderful. I loved it because

I really related to Laura. Laura is the younger sister. She's got brown hair, and her sister Mary is perfect, older, blonde hair, blue eyes, Laura is brown hair, brown eyes, has a temper, is kind of greedy. I think one of the things I remember the best about that particular book is they go on a trip for the day. They take the wagon and go to this lake. And they're looking at the pebbles in the water are so beautiful that they pick them up. The girls are picking them up and putting them in their pockets to take home. And Mary just take a couple because she's so good. And Laura stuffs her pockets so full of rocks that the pockets come off. And I thought, oh, yes, that's what I, that's exactly what I would do. And I totally

related to it. And she was always getting into trouble. And yet I think her father kind of found, loved her more. Well, she was his favorite, although he never put it that way. And I just felt like I got it. But I, you know, at the time, I was so enchanted by all of this. And it teaches you how to build a log cabin, how to slaughter a pig and smoke the meat. Pa takes the pig's bladder and makes ties and knots in it and makes it into a balloon-like ball for the girls. And you just think, what? He makes a corncob doll for Laura. Ma makes all their clothes.

She makes the bonnets. And they describe, and she describes in great detail how all this is done. And I just ate all that up. At the time, I just loved it because I loved it. But I think that retrospectively, I understand that my mother got sick when I was three. She had a heart condition, and she died when I just was about to turn eight. So I had probably just read Little House in the Big Woods. And so they are a family who go through all these hardships with bears, with wolves, with later in series, with locusts,

tornadoes and all kinds of things happen to them. And yet they're really close-knit. Ma and pa are loving and together and not sick, whereas I had a slightly more broken family experience. And I think maybe the books were a comfort to me to see what a model family could be like. And what was really interesting as an adult was when I read biographies of Lori Ingles Wilder. Because, you know, at the time, I just thought they were novels. I didn't think anything more of it. And now I realize, of course, they're autobiographical novels. There's a lot of autobiography in it. And the biographies of her, you discover that actually they didn't, every book they seem to move west,

because Pa's always saying the West is better, we're going to be free there. Actually, in real life, they did move East at times. And they lived in a town in Iowa where they had to work in a hotel and really horrible things happened. And they also had a son, a baby who died. She never mentions any of that in her books. And I thought, and also as an adult, I started to realize Paul was kind of, I think now he would probably be diagnosed as bipolar. He would be really happy and really upset. And then he would just suddenly say, we're going to move.

Poor Ma. You know, Caroline was, had to put up with all this. And I didn't see any of that as a kid. So I now I can reading between the lines of the books, I can see that it's not a model family. I know more now. and I realized, but she created this ideal family, and that really appealed to me at the time. That realization that you could find refuge in novels, in reading,

must have been quite liberating, quite freeing, and something that you've obviously taken into the rest of your life, having realized it as a young girl. Yes, I think I certainly used books as an escape, and in fact my aunt once said that I had said that I'm, When I have a book, I'm never lonely. And I don't remember saying it, but it's something an aunt would remember and repeat back to you. Yeah, and she sent me a book every year for my birthday.

So, you know, I have people around me who were looking after me in subtle ways. But certainly books were very important touchstone. And they still are. I can't imagine not reading every day. You know, it's like brushing your teeth. You've also talked about Anne of Green Gables as a book of your childhood. Another book where perhaps there are girls that resonated with you. Yeah, very much so.

Do your books, you think, reflect your own taste in literature. Have you taken anything from what you used to read as a child? And also, you know, these families navigating the natural world as well. Yeah. Have you sort of continued to explore what you started out as a young girl? Yes, not necessarily the natural world so much, but I think my books are pretty women-centered. And I don't know why. Well, I think I know why.

It's because I am a woman. I'm more interested in women because I am one. And men have had their say for so long, you know, why not emphasize something else? else. But now when I look back on the books that I read, maybe it was Mrs. Carney, the children's librarian, who is pushing the books written by women because they seem to be the ones I remember. So that I think is definitely one thing that I've taken forward. Another is that, you know, the Little House in the Big Woods series are historical novels. Yes. Laurie Ingles Wilder wrote them in the 40s and 50s and 60s, but it was about 1870, 80, 90. She wrote them a lot later. And so they are historical in that sense. Certainly to me they were, but I never thought of them that way. But in a way, they are the first historical novels I ever read. I didn't realize I was going to become a historical fiction writer. But that, I guess, underpinning it all is maybe these books that I loved so much.

Well, we move for your next book towards your university years. Your second book, Shelfly book, is Song of Solomon by Tony Morrison, mapping the history of segregated America through one man's story. Song of Solomon is a breathtaking meditation on rebellion, community and self-discovery, and was Tony Morrison's third published novel. The story of Macon, Milkman, Dead, erred to the richest black family in a Midwestern town as he makes a voyage of rediscovery,

traveling southwards geographically and inward spiritually. Through the Enlightenment of one man, Song of Solomon, recapitulates the history of slavery and liberation. How did this book impact you? I was assigned to read it for a class at university, and I had read Sula, which is her second novel, and the bluest eye, which is her first novel. So I knew.

who she was and what her work was like a bit. But Song of Solomon just blew me away because the first scene is stuck in my mind. There's a man standing on top of the tallest building in their town and he's wearing royal light blue silk wings and he's going to fly away. And down on the ground people are looking up at him and he's African American, most of the crowd is. And And one of the women starts singing a song about flying away, a spiritual. And then Milkman's mother starts to have labor pains. And somebody throws petals, rose petals all over the ground and this guy jumps. And it's so visual and so beautiful and so upsetting all at the same time.

And it goes from there. And I just thought, wow, how did she do that? does she get away with it because there are so many things in it? You know, there's a, one of the main characters doesn't have a navel. I mean, it's kind of impossible, but she doesn't. And there are so many magical realist images in it. And yet it's also grounded in the reality of the African-American experience of racism in America. So it's beautiful and also upsetting, and it's also about relationships and the relationship between men and women and I just thought it's the whole package and I'm always surprised that Beloved has eclipsed it.

I always feel a bit bad about that because I think it's every bit as strong and powerful as Beloved. I mean, Beloved's a wonderful book, but wow, Song of Solomon. If you haven't read it, please do. I think it was the best sell. What an evocative image. And one of the things, you know, sometimes when you're assigned a book to read, you haven't chosen it. Like I chose to read Beloved. I chose to read Sula and Blue Estab. but when you're assigned it, you come at it, you come to it without any expectations, because I hadn't read anything about it.

I was just told this is what you're reading. And there's something actually kind of liberating about that. I mean, I think that's why so many people are in book clubs, because they often have to read something that they wouldn't necessarily choose themselves, and that can really open up worlds for you. It can. I always say this about when I judged the women's prize for fiction, that I wouldn't have touched so many of those books,

because I don't think that I like, say, thrillers, for example. And yet there I was, racing through the pages so immersed in a book that I wouldn't have picked up myself. And it was so happy to have had it pressed into my hands because it opened, like you say, it opened these worlds. And at university as well when, you know, your mind is being really, it's plasticine, right? It's being really stretched at that time. That same class, it was a senior honors class. We also read the poetry of John Dunn and Middle March Song of Solomon and something else. You know, it was this crazy patchwork.

Yeah. I mean, around this time as well, I think another book that you read was Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, whose famous line, reader, I married him, was the title of the anthology that you edited to mark the 200th anniversary of Charlotte's birth. How did you feel when you asked to edit that? I was the, I actually chose to do it. It was me who came up with the idea because I was a creative partner with the Bronte parsonage up in Howarth. They contacted me about a year before the bicentenary celebrating Charlotte Bronte's birth and asked me if I would take part and help steer what was, the celebrations that

would go on over the year. And so I organized various events, and I spent a lot of time there. And one of the things they asked me to do was, would you do some sort of publication? And so I took this line, Reader, I married him, and asked women writers from all over to take the line and write a short story based on it. And some of the stories were directly about retelling Jane Eyre. So Helen Dunmore, Women's Prize, Orange Prize winner. She wrote one that was told from the point of view of one of the servants in the house. And actually painted Jane is really irritating.

This is what she's married to Rochester. So it was sort of the end. And there were just really interesting takes on, and some of them were very modern, you know, contemporary stories that just resonate with Jane Eyre. It was really fun to do. When you read the book initially, were you enamored by Jane? Did you love her? Did you admire her? Yes, I completely related to her, of course, because I think most of us do.

I don't know why. I think we all feel like we're the underdog. And to see her, you know, say, though I'm poor and plain, I am a free spirit and I'm going to do what I want to do. And that was just, you know, and I choose to leave you. when she leaves Rochester and she goes striking out into the moors, I really related to that. And also all her difficulties at school and being treated. She had a difficult upbringing, of course,

and to see her triumph at the end. It's a wonderfully dark but happy story in the end. Relating to women, to the protagonists of these stories, to championing women writers who create more of those protagonists. Why is that so important to you? This was a collection of women writers. Yes, I thought that women would have a particular perspective on Jane. And I didn't think that men would necessarily respond as creatively or interestingly.

Sorry, guys. This one was for the women. This one was for the girls. Baileys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Women. fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Well, on the subject of for the women, for the girls,

it's time to talk about your third bookshelfy book written by a woman, of course. It's restoration by Rose Tremaine. Another orange prize winner. Just picking the big guns. When a twist of fate delivers an ambitious young medical student to the court of King Charles II, he is suddenly thrust

into a vibrant world of luxury and opulence. Blessed with a quick wit and sparkling charm, Robert Merrivel rises quickly, soon finding favour with the king and privileged with a position as paper groom to the youngest of the king's mistresses.

but by falling in love with her, Maravelle transgresses the one rule that will cast him out from his newfound paradise. Now, Rose Tremaine was your tutor when you did an MA. That's, I mean, that's an amazing situation to be in. Yeah, yeah, I was very lucky. Did you read this before that fact or after that fact? I read it when I knew that I was going to be on her course. Okay, a little bit prep. Yeah, a little prep.

Yeah, I just wanted to check her out. And I loved it. I wasn't really gravitating towards historical novels at that point, and either in writing, I was only writing contemporary short stories at that point, and also in reading. I had been reading a lot of contemporary stuff. And so, plus I was still, well, I had been living, you know, you can hear I'm American, but I had been living in the UK for several years by the time I did the MA.

But my grasp of British history was pretty ropy. So I didn't know much about the Civil War and the restoration and all that. So I thought this will be interesting because I don't really know much about this. And I read it and I felt like it opened up my eyes to what historical fiction could be, that it can be playful. It can feel very modern in a funny sort of way. And Rosa has since said that she wrote it in the 1980s, and there is a kind of Thatcherite feel about it. There's a, she was addressing modern issues of inequality and power, but, but in a, you know, guys, in the guise of historical fiction, and I thought, wow, that is really, it was really fun.

And also was the first time I was really watching and looking at taking real people like Charles II and then peopleing around him made up people. And I just loved it. So I thought, wow, I'm lucky I'm going to have her in the same room as me. And indeed, I went on to during that year, I had been writing short stories, but I came up with an idea for a novel and it ended up being half contemporary, half history. historical. So that was probably directly as a result of being with her. Right. Yeah, you suggested that it was this book that led you to a historical setting for your first novel for the Virgin Blue. Yeah. Yeah. What was it that made you want to try those historical settings yourself? Well, interestingly, it wasn't like I read it, had my course with Rose and then thought, okay, I'm going to write a

historical novel. It was more, it was more like recognizing that history, that the past is not a scary thing in all dates and kings and queens and battles. It was real people living in the world. And I thought, oh, that's really, don't be scared of it, Tracy. So my first thought with the Virgin Blue was it's a contemporary novel, but there's little spatterings of history in it. So it's about, a woman who, an American woman who moves to France and starts looking into her family history of, oh, she has French ancestors. And when I wrote it, I thought that it was mostly contemporary with this spattering. And then when I started writing the spatterings of history, I discovered I really liked writing that much more than the contemporary stuff, much more, although it was a lot

harder because I vividly remember writing the first scene, which was like this peasant family in the 16th century sitting down to dinner, and I realized I didn't know what they ate, what they sat on. Did they have forks back then in 1572? Who knows? And so I had to write, oh, God, I'm going to have to do a lot of research. And in fact, Rose said in her teacher comments, tutor comments at the end of my year, something like Tracy has a lot of research to do to successfully complete this book, and I'm not entirely sure she's going to do it. We laugh about that now. But I started doing the research, and then I realized, wow, research is throwing up all kinds of interesting stories and ideas, and it's stimulating me. So maybe I'll write, instead of it being spatterings, I'll expand the

sections. And before you know it, the history was half the book. Well, from 17th century Delft to 19th century England to 16th century Paris, you are continually drawn to these historical settings and your books are, they are meticulously research. You've talked about immersing yourself taking embroidery classes or visiting historical sites. How do you set about the reason? Because like you say, as soon as you sit down at that table and realize, I don't know what kind of fork they use, it's like there could potentially be no end to it. Yes. And what I finally, I realized early on with that fork situation is that I had to do enough research to understand what their daily lives would be like. What they ate, what they wore, how often did they bathe? Did they, you know, everything. What was the geographical setting of the personal space situation? What were their houses like? How did they sleep? What time did they get up? All of that stuff.

I had to work it out so that I could convince the reader, create the world, a world for the reader to understand and accept. I had to reassure the reader that I knew what I was talking about. And so I do way more research than I ever put in a book. But how I do it is I have the idea. And say, for instance, my most recent novel, The Glassmaker, is set on Murano, which is this island off of Venice. and it's about a glassmaking family. And when I knew I was going to write about it, the first thing I did was read everything I could about glassmaking

and then glassmaking on Murano and then glassmaking in Venice and then the history of Venice. So it starts with a very specific and then the rings move out into the more general research. But once I've done a lot of research, and the research gives me ideas of what the story is going to be and what the character is going to be like, Once I start writing, more specifics come up.

So if I'm writing about, I have my character go to do laundry, to go, oh, whether it's 15th century Venice or 19th century England, how do they do it? What do they do? And do they hang it up in the courtyard or do they go into the fields and peg it out? And what do they use as do they use lie? Do they use something else? I have to find all that stuff out. But I don't always use all of it.

I just have to know it so that it feels genuine. What do you do with all that extra knowledge? It's still sitting there. I mean, actually, as I get older, I find I lose it quicker. So I wrote a novel called Remarkable Creatures about the Fossil Hunter Marianning in Lyme Regis, early 19th century. And I had to read a lot of paleontology and geology for that book. And that was really hard to retain because I'm not naturally a scientist. So I held it in my head for as long as it took to write the book, and then it's all draining away.

So by the time people ask me very, if you ask me a specific question about the Jurassic period, I can't always answer it. I love that there's just notebooks sitting with just so much knowledge that couldn't be squeezed into these books. But great dinner party chat. I don't know if I bore for England for people. Your fourth bookshelfy book is Alias Grace. Margaret Atwood. A decade and a half has passed since Grace was locked up at the age of 16 for the cold-blooded murders of her employer, Thomas Kinna, and his housekeeper and lover Nancy Montgomery. Her alleged accomplice, James McDermott, was hanged in 1843. Dr. Simon Jordan

attempts to uncover the truth. Now I know Margaret Atwood is an author you've always admired, but you said that Aalius Grace surprised you. Why was this? Well, one of the things I admire about Margaret Outwood, who also is a woman's prize winner, is that you never quite know what she's going to write next. And she's very open-minded to writing historical novels and science fiction, dystopian novels, straightforward contemporary novels, nonfiction, poetry. She does it all. She's even written, I think, a video game with Naomi Alderman. Another women's prize. Man, they all come up now. grief. So she's really open to experimentation, and I admire that a lot about her. And when I read this, she hadn't written any other historical novels. So I was a little surprised that she did. And I think what I learned the most from this novel was that she takes something that really happened. And there's actually quite a lot of detail about that murder and about the trial and about the imprisonment and all of that, of these two people.

And she manages to fictionalize it in a way that she finds the gaps in the story, and she fills them in. And I realized that's what I was doing or wanted to do. With historical fiction, it's often the case that you want to take something real that's going on. You know, people, but find the gaps. So when I wrote about Marianne, the fossil hunter, I was attracted to the fact that very little is really known about her. And also a girl with a pearlyering, of course. For a mirror, we actually don't know that much

about him, and we know nothing about the girl in the painting. So I could make it up. But within the context of all the stuff that we do know, and I thought that Margaret Atwood in the Aelius Grace just really nailed it. And she also managed to figure out how to give a voice to somebody who had really existed, but make them an unreliable narrator. It's a masterclass in unreliable narration. You're really, even at the end, you're sort of, oh, which is it? And it, but not in a bad way. You know, sometimes when things are left unresolved, it's really irritating, but this wasn't irritating. And the other thing I loved about the book was that each chapter starts with, has a little pattern of a quilt, Patrick Square, and there's

quilting in the book. And I've written about quilting in the last runaway. And, So that really pleased me to see that. And she sometimes uses the pattern. She writes about the pattern that it represents and uses it symbolically, but also somewhat ironically. And, you know, she's got such a sardonic voice and somewhat world-weary at times. I also love that she somehow managed to sound like herself, even though it was set in the 19th century. Margaret Adwood is another author who prefers to write by hand. Does she?

Yeah. I didn't know that. The idea that she was also sketching the little patchwork quilts as well. That was part of her flow. Would you ever be tempted to experiment in similar ways with, say, poetry or nonfiction or sci-fi? Or take yourself to any of these other worlds? Okay, you've just mentioned three things I'll never do. I am terrible at poetry.

Ah, gosh. And I really don't want to rewrite non-fiction. I certainly don't want to write a memoir. I don't think that I'm that interesting. So I just keep my private life private. And science fiction is tough. I think that's one of the harder ways to look at the world is to try to push it into ways.

I mean, I really admire science fiction without actually loving reading it that much. But I would like to try, I'd love to write a play. I would love to write a children's book. and I would love to write a screenplay. So I am working on one from one of my books just on the side to see if I can turn it into. You know, Emma Donahue did it, so I think with room, so I'm thinking, maybe I could do it too.

And though I always like to write something in a slightly different way if I can. I like to challenge myself. That's why my books are set all over the place and at different times. I don't want to repeat myself. And also my latest book, The Glassmaker, is a historical novel, but it covers 500 years and I play with time in a way that was really challenging for me. And I always like to challenge myself. So not necessarily in the ways that you suggest it, but in some other possibilities, definitely. So watch the space for a play and children's book.

You described some of your work as books about strong female characters who might be at odds with society who need to find their own path. and you're drawn to, like you said, those sort of alternative perspectives. You mentioned the girl with a pearl earring writing about Vermeer's muse rather than the painter himself. What draws you to different perspectives? Well, I think, and particularly women's perspectives, I think when we look at the past, you know, women have had so little power. No socioeconomic political power for so long. And so when they want something or they need something, they have to find an alternative way to get it. So in The Glassmaker, my heroine, Ursula, wants to work in glass, and women are not men to at that time.

So she has to find a way to do it, which is at the kitchen table. And the women around her protect her and help her. And that to me, I've had a number of readers say to me, that's a number of readers say to me, that's what I liked about the book, the best, is that there is this kind of unspoken, and you never spell it out, but the women just quietly support her. And that's what women have been doing for centuries. And I find that fascinating. And that's to me where the drama is, is like, if you're powerless, how do you find the power? If you're being painted by a famous painter, how do you take some control of the situation? How do you do it? You use your brain. And that, I find that more interesting than maybe the male perspective, which where they already have a little bit of power just by being male. To me, the drama is in the women finding their way. Which brings us beautifully onto our fifth and final book that you brought today, which is Life After Life by Kate Atkinson. During a snowstorm in England in 1910, a baby is born and dies before she can take her first break.

During a snowstorm in England in 1910, the same baby is born and lives to tell the tale. What if there were second chances and third chances, in fact an infinite number of chances to live your life? Life after life follows Ursula Todd as she lives through the turbulent events of the last century again and again. You've described this as a genius of a novel. What makes it worth this high phrase? Well, I love reading all kinds of novels, but sometimes you read a novel every now and then that tells a story in such a crazy way. It's almost like the cards have been thrown up into the air. And you think this is never going to work. Like on paper, that just sounds insane. It works beautifully. And with the glassmaker, I was playing with time, too. So the book takes place over 500 years. And my heroine orsula ages so the beginning of the book she's a girl at the end of the book in 2022 she's she's in her late 60s how does that happen well I skip over sections of time and and people

I decided people in Venice age more slowly in a different way because Venice is so timeless so but but it was my my editors sort of said when they saw the draft they said Tracy what what have you done? Shouldn't they be dead? And I said, but I, life after life, Kate Atkinson did it. Why can't I? And Wood Virginia Wolf in Orlando. And they said, yeah, but you haven't really told us what's going on here. You've just sort of done it. So you need to help the reader. And one of the first things I did when I redrafted was I went back to life after life and reread parts of it, especially at the beginning, just to see how she explains this crazy thing she does with time where the life starts over and over again. And she does it so simply and with such a

light hand. And it made me feel like she was holding my hand saying, it's okay, you can do this. It really, you know, the reader will go with you. And the other thing I loved about life after life is that we've all thought, what if only I had gone down that path instead of this one? What if I had chosen to live in Paris instead of London? What if I had followed that guy? What if I'd gotten back together with that boyfriend? I would probably be living in Arizona. You know, what, what am I, what if I had done this out of the other or not done this? And Kate Atkinson actually explores that, that thought of having the different types of lives you can have and how that might affect history. And I just thought it was genius.

And one of the other great things about life after life is if you've loved it, you can then read A God in Ruins, which is about Ursula's hero, the heroine Ursula's brother, Teddy, who makes an appearance in Life After Life. But a God in Ruins is about World War II, him as a pilot in World War II. and it just it makes you feel like oh yes I can go back to these characters because I love them so much and those two books together wow she's fabulous life after life is sort of a reference book for the glassmaker inspiration and so many writing ideas they come in a moment of inspiration that sort of jump off point what was the moment

of inspiration for the conception of the glassmaker I was doing a reading years ago for in Milan for the remarkable creatures. So it was like 2010 or 11. And a man came up to me at the signing afterwards and said, I think you should write about Venetian glass beads. Because they have great stories to tell and they were used all over the world in trade and you should, they're really interesting.

Here's some books on them. And I, you know, people do this all the time, suggest ideas to me. So I was very polite. I took the books. And then I looked at the books and I put them on the shelf. And then years later, it just was back. You know, I tend to write about people who make things and whether it's quilts or buttons or embroidery.

And I just thought, well, maybe I'll – my husband at the same time said, why don't you set a book someplace we want to visit a lot rather than Winchester or – Sorry, Winchester. I love Winchester. He didn't. And I said, how about Venice? Because we both literally love Venice. We go every two years for the Biennale.

And he said, yeah, yeah, okay. And so I got those books back out. And that was my first reading. And then I read more about beads. And particularly the thing that he said, I've forgotten to say, is he said, glass beads were mainly made by women. And I thought, okay. So that was what really appeals.

You've talked about having a crisis in confidence when you get two-thirds through a book. Did you have this with The Glassmaker? How do you deal with self-doubt as a writer? I think the Glassmaker was a little different because it was, I researched and wrote it mainly during the pandemic. And I think our sense of time and flow was so disrupted that I couldn't even say it was two-thirds of the way through. It was probably all the way through. I was just all over the place. So that was a, you know, that was different. But most of my books, about two-thirds of the way through, you know, I know what the end is going to be.

And I've set everything up, but I'm not quite ready to pay it all off, which is what the last quarter does. And so there's this little slump. And you know, you notice it. You'll notice it in films and in books you read. What is it people do? So often they'll introduce a new character or something like a twist comes then or something crazy. happens. But for me, what happens is I usually have the idea for the next book. And then I go, this happened with Mary Anning. I went to, I was writing a book called Burning Bright, which was

about William Blake. And it was, I was struggling. It's two-thirds of the way through. I was slumping. And then my, I went to this dinosaur museum with my son. And there was a display about her. And I thought, oh, she was struck by lightning as a baby. And she was this working class woman who's self-taught, amazing story. I got to write about her. I'm going to drop this stupid William Blake novel and work on her. And then I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, trace. No, just put it on the back burner and persist.

You just have to push through it. But yes, so the slump for the glassmaker was, you know, I just got through it by going to Venice once I could again. I had had all these plans to spend a lot of time in Venice and then the pandemic paid to that. But I did get back. and that's always inspiring. And also, you just have to push through.

So people ask me, what do you do if you have writer's block? You just have to just do it. Just ignore it. Just write anything because something will come out of that day of writing. You might throw all of the away except for one line. And that's fine. It means you've been productive with one line. So many of the authors that we've had on the podcast have said,

it's so hard to just finish it, to just say, okay, this is done. I accept that it's done. Are you a perfectionist? Do you worry about the success of the non? or critics or how it's going to be received? You know, by the time that at that point, I am so sick of the book and I'm so on to the next book because there's usually a gap between when you finished editing and when they actually publish it.

In this case, it's been almost a year. So I've had a lot of time to go on to the next book and I'm trying not to worry too much about critical reception or anything like that. But there's definitely a perfectionist moment or whole months of editorial back and forth with the editors, copy editing, proofreading, and you do get sick of it. But there's also that fear of I have made a mistake somewhere and somebody's going to find out. And they're going to tell me, which, of course, they always do. I get readers all the time. And I've had readers from because the glassmaker is out in the state.

So a couple of written to me and said, did you know that in the 18th century, that merchant wouldn't have had a glass paperweight full of milfiori? Those weren't for another 50 years. And I'm always polite. I wrote back and said, you're so right. I'm so sorry. And I will fix it in the next edition. So there's always things like that. I once used the word move 20 years before they had invented mauve. So, you know, it happens. Of course I make mistakes. But really, it's that worry of have I told the story right? Have I been true to my characters? Is the reader going to be bored or interested? Is it going to sustain all the way through? And there's not much you can do after a while. Once it's back into proofreading, you just have to close your eyes and say, okay, somebody will like it out there. Please let it be a number of people and not just one person. I'm sure it's going to be more than one person. Well, you know, you're saying maybe you shouldn't look back and we just look forward, but we do have to look back now just finally at the five books that you chose today. And if you had to pick one as a favorite, oh, your face.

Listeners who can't see this, Tracy looks bereft that I'm asking. Just one as a favorite, which would it be and why? Okay. Could I take the whole series of Little House in the Woods, because the Little House in the Big Woods is pretty short. Come on, please, please please. I'm looking at my producer. She says yes. Yes, I'll take them then. because I think Laura is five when it starts and she's 18 when it finishes and it's like a whole life in those books of growing up of being in this family and the tensions now that I know what her full story is I just think there's so much to learn in them and to uncover over and over again with different perspectives. You know, I reread them not that long ago as an adult because I was doing a radio thing about Lori Engels Wilder. And this time I looked at it from the point of view of the mother, because I'm a mother myself. But when I read them as a kid, of course I was a kid.

I only saw it from Laura's perspective. And now seeing it from the mother's perspective in this family, I'm like, oh, my God. And, you know, the things that she had to be so patient about and put up with and learn to do. And I think maybe I would look at it from different points of view if I was reading them over and over and over again. Well, on the words, a whole life in those books, I think we found the perfect place to, end. Thank you for telling me your whole life through your books on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you, Tracy. Vic, been a pleasure to speak to you too. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is

brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.