Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep19: Bookshelfie: Corinna Brown

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

British actress Corinna Brown tells us why representation is so important to her and through the poetry of Rupi Kaur, explains why you are more than just pretty.  Corinna best known for her role as Tara Jones in Heartstopper, the multi-award-winning, BAFTA nominated Neftlix adaptation of Alice Osman’s LGBTQ+ graphic novels which rose to the top ten most-watched English series on Netflix within two days of the first season’s release. The series has assembled a surge of fans mesmerised by the show’s ability to create diverse, authentic storylines for fans around the world to relate to.   Corinna trained at East 15 drama school. She has worked across film, television and theatre, including making her television debut in the BBC Three film My Murder with John Boyega. In 2023, Corinna starred in Essex Girls, a coming-of-age short film directed by Yero-Timi Bie that explores Black-British girlhood and the magic of female friendship, nominated for Best Short Film at the 2023 London Film Festival.   The much anticipated third season of Heartstopper, released on Netflix this week, sees Tara face the trials of living as a lesbian from a young age and what it means to grow up and develop alongside a romantic partner. Corinna’s book choices are: ** Shiver by Maggie Stiefvater ** Noughts and Crosses by Malorie Blackman  ** Children of Blood and Bone by Tomi Adeyemi ** Milk & Honey by Rupi Kaur ** Seven Methods of Killing Kylie Jenner by Jasmine Lee Jones Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

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and so if you see majority people in the arts that's why I wanted to act if you see a lot of white people on the screen you're thinking oh I can't do that I remember watching telly and being like oh my god if that little black girl's doing it I can do that like wow

reading a book saying oh if and then you see the author as a black woman I'm like oh I can tell my stories too my voice can be heard and received With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 7 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your own. a 2024 reading list.

Today, I am joined by Carina Brown. Carina is a British actress, best known for her role as series regular Tara Jones in Heartstopper, the multi-award-winning BAFTA-nominated Netflix adaptation of Alice Osmond's LGBTQ-plus graphic novels, which rose to the top 10 most-watched English series on Netflix within two days of the first season's release. The series has assembled a surge of fans. mesmerized by the show's ability to create diverse, authentic storylines for people around the world to relate to. Karina trained at East 15 Drama School. She has worked across film, television and

theatre, making her television debut in the BBC 3 film My Murder with John Boyega. In 2023, Karina starred in Essex Girls, a coming-of-age short film directed by Yerot Timmy Buyu that explores black British girlhood and the magic of female friendship, nominated for best short film at the 2023 London Film Festival. The much anticipated third season of Heartstopper released on Netflix this week sees Tara face life navigating being a lesbian from a young age

and what it means to grow up and develop alongside a romantic partner. And I'm absolutely delighted to welcome you to bookshelfy, Karina. Oh, thank you for having me. I liked, as I was doing your intro and going through your credits, you were like, oh yeah, yeah, did that one too?

There's also things. I was like, oh, I didn't know that. Two days, sick. Two days, yeah. No way. It's massive. I mean, yeah, let's start with Heartstopper because it is so popular. It has amassed so many fans who feel so connected to it. Did you read the novels first, the graphic novels, or were you kind of fresh to the script?

I was fresh to the script. I didn't know anything about it, so I didn't know it was online first. Hadn't come across the novels. So yeah, when I saw it, I literally, it was when the side were sent to me, and it was Tara's monologue in the music room in season one. And I don't know, as soon as I read that, it was like, something in me clicked, and I was like, if I do not get this job, I'm going to be so upset, because straight away, I was like, wow, the writing,

like you can just feel all the emotions just from the text, and that was like before I'd seen the novel or anything. And then obviously afterwards I was like, I went into like searching mode. And then when we all got confirmed, we did get sent the books. So Alice gave us all the books, like all of them. And it was so easy to like read and follow. And yeah, I got it. I was like, oh yeah, this is why it's done like it does so well.

The books, the graphic novels, Alice is amazing. Oh gosh. That emotion that you really found fizzing off the page when you read the script that you really got. get that when you read the graphic novels as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's so, it's so mad because sometimes like on TikTok and things, I'll see fans have put the

novels like side by side to the show online. And it's like, you've just like picked up the page and chucked it on the screen. So I don't know how they managed to translate it so well. But yeah, I think we just

did have great foundation and the novels were so, you just Yeah, you just get it. You feel everything. And when it comes to translating that two screen and knowing that there are so many fans right from the start, do you feel pressure to deliver to them what they're hoping for? Absolutely.

I'd say more so for season two, because I think with season one, the naivety of it all, I was just really excited to be on set filming this amazing, amazing script and telling this beautiful story. And then it came out, it did really well. And then I know for season two, that was one of my big worries. I was like, what if I do something wrong for the fan base? And yeah, but we've got a great casting crew, so that's never, never happened, I hope.

Everyone loves it. Someone's sat there like, actually. I wouldn't even worry about it. What kind of novels or boots do you usually gravitate towards? What do you like to read? So for me, I love like non-fiction, fantasy, sci-fi. I, and I think stories with a bit of magic, like looking back at the five that I suggested,

I was like, oh, they've all sort of in the same vein, a bit of magic, lots of romance, and just stories that, like, you can feel it on the page. Like, I don't know what that thing is, but it's probably why I'm not a writer, but if I had that thing, I'd write. For those of you who can't see, which you can't, it's a podcast. No, no, no.

Carina is doing like a sort of, I don't know how to describe this hand gesture. It's like you're sprinkling little bits of, could be solved, but it can be, it's fairy dust. Yeah, it's very dust. Yeah, it's very dust, vim, magic. Yeah. We were talking about before we started recording about when you're an actress, you're a, sort of a vessel in a way for the story. And so you can't focus too much on just your performance individually because it's about the whole. ensemble it's about the cinematography of it, the way it all comes together, the writing, everything,

everyone's skills and create this magic. And I wonder whether there's something of that in these stories that you've chosen, which are all quite magical. There is fantasy. But like you say, it's the emotion that you love. These worlds, as much as they're not necessarily exactly the same as their own, they're great vessels for anything that you might need to feel. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's get into your first book, Shelfy book, which is Shelfy book. Which is shiver by Maggie Stivarty. When a local boy is killed by wolves, Grace's small town becomes a place of fear. But Grace is fascinated by the pack and finds herself drawn to a yellow-eyed wolf.

There's something about him, something almost human. Ben, Grace meets a yellow-eyed boy whose familiarity takes her breath away. Now, this book started, in your own words, your love of fantasy wolfy stuff. This is what you told us. When did you first read it? And why do you think it made such an impression on you? I think this was like my like teenage. So it was either when I was like between 13, 14.

I think everyone else was sort of reading Twilight. And I thought, well, my mum was like, you're not watching Twilight reading. Like, no. Like she was like, I don't know why. To this day, I'm like, don't know, but mum said no. And then one of my. my friends at school was reading it and was like, oh, you like this. And at first I was like, I don't get the werewolfy fantasy hype with Twilight's because I've never read it. But then once,

yeah, I think I read that and it was also like, I remember it being winter because the book is set like in a forest, it's snowing. And I remember like being in my bed. I literally was sat there for ages. I think I got through it in a week because it was so gripping. And yeah, I felt the cold. and it's called Shiva and she's also got other ones, Lingar, and it's like, I think it was the title of the book that got to me. I was like, oh, and then I read the blurb and I was, yeah, it made me, I'm doing the hand sign thing. The sprinkled.

The sprinkled on you. It gave me the fills, yeah. So I was obsessed. And did you then gravitate towards any other wolfy, uh, will be fantasy well yeah I definitely did

I think I don't know that's when I was sort of like open to to that world I think like I was like

yeah we can we can talk about love and and these issues in a cool like once upon a if you've seen

the series once upon a time way like it's like all Disney characters come into life in this this different world

dealing with societal like problems and I think yeah I don't know it just ignited something in my brain that was like oh yeah we can talk about real world issues through magic and had you sort of uh come across that before in your reading well what were your sort of earliest reading memories were you already a big fan of of books a bit of a bookworm or was that the beginning I think early on it was like your your biff and chip books your your your the well what was that the queen's nose as well that was like um I used to love and I've

notice that actually everything I've read has actually become like a series or like a show. And I think for me like it is the magically fantasy ones that later you go and watch. And I'm like, oh, that's probably why I like it. Because I can see, you can, like, your imagination can run wild. So early on, I was like a very into words, very into writing, talking, very Englishly, like based. Yeah. So always, always been the.

more creative side, never normally like, I remember at school being told off even if we were doing like a newspaper article, they'd be like, Karina, this is far too, like, discreet, like, get to the facts, get to the point. You want to make it dramatic. But that's, you know, that's become your job as bringing things to life and seeing the potential in, in the words, to become a life that feels lived. And if you love fantasy so, so much, would you ever want to maybe act in a fantasy series or a movie. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I want to do it all.

Yeah, that would be really, because it's, it's like beyond your imagination, beyond your belief. Like, I just think I like the fact that it's, the possibilities are endless and it's like, we can draw things from it, learn things about other people in a nice, indirect way, do you know what I mean? Yeah, well, that magic, I feel like we all need it. And there's an escape as well. in fantasy.

Something that possibly fans of heart stuff and might know or might not know about you is that you specialised in stage combat. Yes. Could you see yourself using this in, you know, in a, say a fantasy role, you could be a werewolf. Yeah.

You could be a werewolf hunter. We did, we did terms of animal studies. I've been a gecko for quite a while. I've, yeah, I've been a mole rat as well. That was fun. So absolutely, like, I'd love to use all of these creative skills to just bring cool things, unimagined things to life. You perform stunts in Supercell in Snow White.

What do you love about stunt acting? I think it's the fact that it's so physical and it, like, involves your whole self. So you're getting your body involved. Even when I'm stunting, like doubling, I don't need to say the words or the lines, but I'll give it anyway just to like, I think it's the feeling and just being so immersed in it all. That's what I really enjoy.

And from the two seconds we've been here, you can see I can't stop moving. So I think it's also a good, like, energy release for me. Let's talk about your second book that you brought today, which is Nauts and Crosses by Mallory Blackman. As we said before we started recording, so many people have brought this book because it has resonated with so many of us

and it would be on my list. But I don't have to do this because it would be impossible. I could not choose my books. I'm so sorry I'm putting you through this. Let's talk about Nauts and Crosses. Seffi is a cross. She lives a life of privilege and power,

but she is lonely and she burns with an injustice that the world she sees around her. Callum is a Nort. He is considered to be less than nothing, a blanker, there to serve crosses. But he dreams of a better life. They've been friends since they were children and they both know that's as far as it can ever go.

Nauts and crosses are fated to be bitter enemies. Love is out of the question. Then, in spite of a world that is fiercely against them, these star-cross lovers choose each other. But this is a love story that will lead both of them into terrible danger. Tell us about why you've chosen this book. Why did it resonate with you so much? I think this book was my first experience of like,

a story within like a racial divide like but I could read it in a way that it was because Steffy is the not the cross and she's dark-skinned so I think for me it was like oh it's seeing the roles reversed so it whilst it's the same issues there was also a sense of empowerment and then obviously I got obsessed with Mallory Blackman and started to see everything else she'd written and that and she was like a strong black woman like published worldwide and I think that for me was like yeah yeah I just think you read it and you can go this is right like let's support each other even though the roles were reversed I was like if you can read it in that sense I was like I feel like this inversion of the reality that we know and like the the the social structure

the injustice the violence of racism and the futility of conflict, it was like, I remember reading it and being like, oh, I get it. Like, I get it. It's holding a mirror up to us. And even though it's not exactly this way around, this is what's happening and sometimes we're so used to it that we don't think about it until someone shows us. Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. And we're just kids. It's a book for kids. And yet, you know, it was a book we need it. Absolutely. And I think as well, I think I was learning about like, and being exposed to other things. I remember just feeling angry at that time.

I was like very angry and then read this and was like, I kind of, yeah, kind of liked it because it was a role reversal and I was like, well, I kind of like reading about it this way around. However, the moral of the story and the fact that there's still hope and it teaches you, hang on, it's, we can all just live together and we're not different. I think that's what, yeah. I was like, it's funny, isn't it?

I always say that a good book will change the way you look at the world, but also change the way you look at yourself. And it teaches you empathy. So you walked in the shoes of these characters and you see things from their perspectives. For me, personally, it was the first time I'd ever seen an interracial relationship on the pages of a book, which was, you know, my mum and dad.

And I never, just never seen it in TV, never seen it in books. And it made me understand maybe what they might have gone through back in the 80s. and that's why representation matters because I was reading this book thinking I found some solace, I'm not alone. Why does representation matter to you?

You mentioned that this was, you know, seeing a black author and thinking, actually look what she's done. Did it make you think, look what I could do? Absolutely, absolutely. Because, yeah, I think naturally we put a limit on what we can do by seeing what other people have done. And so if you see majority of,

people in the arts, that's why I wanted to act. If you see a lot of white people on the screen, you're thinking, oh, I can't do that. I remember watching telly and being like, oh my god, if that little black girl's doing it, I can do that. Like, wow, I'm reading a book saying, oh, if, and then you see the author as a black woman, I'm like, oh, I can tell my stories too.

My voice can be heard and received. I think it, yeah, inspires us and gives you the drive and just like, it's like an okay, you can, it's fine, you can do what you want, really. And what does it mean? to you knowing that now that you're on the television now that you're that representation that other little girls who might be sitting at home like you were like little korena could be looking and thinking oh i could do that yeah honest that's why i do it that's yeah that's what i want to do

always um so yeah it makes me really really happy and i'm honored that i can do that and grateful that one day someone will be flying and being like oh yeah i saw you do that thing and like do you know what i mean Yeah. This book, it deals like we said with injustice, with discrimination, which are two issues that I know you've been vocal about from discussing the lack of accessibility and opportunities for disabled children to narrating Southends Black Lives Matter video. Beyond representation, why is it important for you to use your voice? I think it's because it's just proof that we've all got a voice and showing that you can

have the confidence to stand up and use it for what you believe. And I think it's just, that's why it's important because someone else doesn't have a voice that's, oh, they do have a voice, but it's not being heard. So if I can be the voice that is heard for whatever they need, that obviously aligns with your own morals, that's why I think everyone should be able to stand and say what they believe in because it will be helping someone who may not be able to be heard right now. Heartstopper is like the epitome of using your voice, of representing, of feeling included and feeling like the, yeah, that you can be whoever you want to be. That's what it's about.

How does it feel knowing that and knowing that that's what it gives to its viewers and its fans? It feels amazing. Like, because that's, in my eyes, that's how life and the world should be. Like, everyone's different. and everybody goes through experiences, and we should shine a light on all of that. Yeah, and I'm just honoured that heart stop is there, and we've been a part of that, and it does that for people.

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Take one step towards your dream with the Women's Prize Trust's Discovery Programme, in partnership with Curtis Brown Literary Agency, the Curtis Brown Creative Writing School and Audible. This unique program aims to find emerging female writing talent from across the UK in Ireland and offers practical advice, motivation and industry insight, and is completely free to enter. We're open for submissions from now until the 13th of January. To submit and find out more, visit women's prize.com forward slash discoveries. Karina, more magic next.

Your third book, Shelby Book, is Children of Blood and Bone by Tommy Adiemi. Zeli remembers when the soil of Erescia hummed with magic. burners igniting flames, tides becoming waves, and Zellie's reaper mother summoning forth souls. But everything changed the night that magic disappeared. Under the orders of a ruthless king, anyone with powers was targeted and killed. Only a few people remain with the power to use magic, and they must remain hidden. Zelly is one such person. Now she has a chance to bring back magic to her people and strike against the monarchy.

With the help of a rogue princess, Zelly must learn to harness her powers and outrun the crown prince who was hell-bent on eradicating magic for good. Was this quite a recent read? It was a very recent read for me, yes. What were your first thoughts? Oh, because I've not actually read like a magical back to my room's book before because I get scripts all the time, so I've been reading different sorts of like, yeah, things. So to read that, I was, it are, it brought back all the fields.

The magic fingers are out again. Yeah. It was just the strong, powerful female lead in the book. I was like, yes. Our protagonist was great. I loved just the imagery again and just being able, the escapism of the book and how the author really just was able to just, I can't paint the picture of the world.

And I was obsessed. I loved that it was so African rooted. It had like Yoruba and Nigerian, like, folk tell influences I could see. And I was like, oh my God, I love it. Yeah. Where are your family from? I'm Jamaican and Grenadian. Right.

Yeah. So for me, that's like, oh, learning. I'm getting other cultures. Like, I love it. Like, learning about other cultures. That's how you expand your mind. I absolutely love when, because I'm half Nigeria. And there are so many like shades of the culture that my mom's described to me growing up and and lots of like folklore and lots of like magic like you say that's dotted throughout because, you know, so many different cultures throughout Africa, there'll be shades of each other.

And I absolutely love when these books and I think in your notes to us you'd said they oozes out of the book, the culture, the imagery. When you see that oozing through novels and yeah, you kind of, there's a. education in there but there's also like you connect little dots yeah between the cultures um paint the picture of zilli's world what was it that really appealed to you about what was oozing out of it i think it was the strength i think it was her strength and determination i think because in the book she's got to like save her village essentially and save the world um but yeah i think just the sense of her her like yeah her gumption and her drive and the power to push through.

I love that. I understand that this is going to be adapted to become a show. They're making a show of this. When you hear that, and obviously, you know, you're in an adaptation, and it's been a huge successful one. It's gone really well. They've done it real justice. But do you ever hear that and think,

oh, how are you ever going to evoke and convey the magic of the page onto the stage or the screen. Does it ever worry you? I shouldn't say this because I am. But no, I think, I think, yes, you do because it's going to sound bad, but I'm always like, actually, I've imagined it better. Don't ruin how it is in my head, please. But I think you've got to give everything a chance.

And I think if the blueprints, which is the novel, are so strong and if you stay close to that, it should be amazing. So I'm really excited. I am excited for that. I did see that being announced when they were like, it's going to come. I was like, oh, get me in it. Yes, no, but you could. Who would be the dream casting for Zilli?

Would you want to do it? Maybe, I don't know. I'd like, I would like to be involved. I don't know if I'm like jinxing it by being like, yeah, put me in silly. No, a jinx has a manifestation. I was putting it out into the universe. Yes. But yeah, no, I think whoever's cast, I'm just, I'm like it's a black novel, it's so black. Whoever's going to get in it is going to be someone amazing that someone else can be inspired by it doesn't have to be me, it's going to be someone great.

Do you know what I mean? So that's, that's exciting. I'm like, yeah. We mentioned your heritage just there and you have talked about your mom's role in your acting career, putting you in dance classes from an early age, but also insisting that you finished your age. levels. Absolutely. She said studies come first. Can you tell me a little bit more about her? Yeah, she's great. Superwoman, hi, mom, love you. But yeah, my mom was very strict. I've always love performing. She did put me in dance when I was younger, mainly because I used to walk on my tiptoes. So, yes, and then she was like, well, how do I make this child normal? That's hard as that. Let's use it. Get a wrong point. So, but it was always, is you can go and do the things that you enjoy

if your schoolwork is up to scratch, up to par. When I told her that I wanted to do like drama, she found a speech and language like thing. So I had to do like the Trinity exams. And she said to me, I made you do that because that's like the boring work. You do monologues, you do seat, like you have to do the studying for it.

And she said when she realized that I was like, yeah, I'll do it happily. She was like, okay, so she wants to do this. let's use this as like leverage. So if like my grades were slipping, like maths and French and the things that I was a little bit worse at, she'd be like, well, you're not doing that show until this is improved. And I think that gave me a good discipline, a good foundation.

I think you need your qualifications. But yeah, I think at the time, I would have been like, Emma, why you're being annoying? Because I wanted to go Brit school as well. And she didn't let me. She was like, no, you're going to do a level. But now I'm like, I see why she did that. I very much appreciate it.

At the time, I would have been like, oh, she's been a cow. Let me do my show. We always feel that. We always look back and go, no, she didn't know what she was talking about. That was her way of supporting you. Can you remember why you wanted to be an actor? Oh, I just loved it.

I don't, and I don't know if it was like acting specifically. I think I found like the niche of it later, but it was just the performing. I loved singing, dancing. That's how I express myself. That's still how I express myself. So, yeah, and I couldn't really see myself doing anything else. I always say I'm not good at anything else.

I feel like I can't do that for too long. And also I was very like, there were lots of things that I was interested and I've always had many interests. So when it came to like being seriously like sitting down, what are you going to do for work? I'd be like, oh, I want to be a lawyer. Oh, the next week I wanted to be a teacher. the next week I wanted to be like a doctor and then I think I was like actually I just want to act it always comes back yeah I just want I don't want to study for that for seven years

one day you will be in a show as a teacher as a lawyer yes a doctor being casualty no it's when you're when you're young you of course you're working out and there's no cutoff point where you're supposed to know what you're doing it sounds like there was always that element of performance running through. And running through to today, this very moment, the third season of Heart Stopper is released this week.

You've described the show as life-changing. How has it affected you? It's just opened so many doors, I think, and that's the main thing. It's put us all out there in such a lovely and supportive way, I must say, like, the fan base are lovely. I think it's because it's such a lovely show

and it includes everyone, everyone looks after us. So from that, yeah, the opportunities are incredible, and it just allows me to do my job, which I can't thank the team and the show for anymore. It feels like there's a real sense of camaraderie and friendship amongst the cast. Obviously, it's the theme of the show, but it also feels like it's real.

It's genuine, it is, it really is. I always say, I don't know how. Daniel Edwards did it. From that first day of like when we all met each other, I look at that photo and I'm like, wow. Like in that moment, they knew. We were all like nervous. Like, you don't know how it's going to go.

But yeah, honestly, they are some of my best friends now forever. Like I see all of them all of the time. I don't know if they are happy seeing me that much. Oh, come on. You can't get rid of me. You're stuck now. And have you met Alice Osmond, the creator? Yeah, yeah, loads of time.

Alice is always on set. Alice is on set very often. Alice is amazing, honestly, always there to answer questions, always there to allow us to put our little elements in. Yeah. Does it give you the desire to maybe have a go at writing or producing or directing or anything like that one day? Yeah, honestly, I'd love to do.

I'd love to write. As I said, I loved English, love creative writing. I don't know if I'm, yeah, I don't know if the time will come. But for me, I'd love to write a novel or something. That would be amazing. But for now I write more like poetry bits and songs and just little things for myself. So I feel like I do it anyway. It's just no one else needs to read it.

Well, on the subject of poetry, the fourth piece that you brought today is milk and honey by Rupikawa. Milk and Honey takes readers through a journey of the most bitter moments in life and finds sweetness in them because there is sweetness everywhere if you're just willing to look. The book is divided into four chapters and each chapter serves a different purpose, deals with a different pain but also heals a different heartache. Why did you love milk and honey? I loved milk and honey because you said it, it shows you beauty in everything. everything in the pain. And it really does go through like a process of like healing, accepting. And I found this at like this book at uni, it was recommended by one of my friends. So it was a bit later. And I don't know. I think it was at a time that I myself was like,

oh my God, I don't know how to deal with all of these things that I'm feeling and like you lose friends, you lose like loved ones, things like that. So I think at that time it was like it spoke to me and also I love just like the layout of poetry I think it's easy to read it's like it doesn't feel overwhelming because sometimes a book you open it and you're like well words but yeah I think oh I just I just love how it sounds it's got feeling as well it's got pace and rhythm and again for me I think like poetry is a medium that involves all of all of your senses it's potent, isn't it? I love it. I carry a book of poems usually around with me in my bag at all times. It's like I need it. If I just need to dip into it, I always think of poetry like a flower

growing out of a crack in the concrete of the city. Sometimes that really concentrated beauty, the words and the senses and the feelings, a picture painted that is short and sweet but gets to the point and fills you with emotion that you need right then is, yeah, it's a really potent and poignant thing. Oh, I love poetry so, so much. I'm so with you. And it has a place wherever. So you've you know, you've got someone like Rupikoa who is

very well known on Instagram, sort of became known via via Instagram. I used to do it, them little quotes from my story. You post of your story because you're like, actually this represents me today. That's a very, a very acute way of showing how I feel to this audience right now.

There you go. And I follow a few poetry accounts and some people might kind of look down on them because it's like, oh, it's not the purest. But what's wrong with that? Exactly. I think, and it's getting it out there as well. It's getting it out there, yeah. Like that flower in the concrete,

it's like, well, Instagram can be a horrible place or the social media can be a horrible place. Here's a little bit of beauty, which we all need. Were you made aware of Rupy through Instagram or? I think, yeah. So before I actually got the book, it was the Instagram quotes but I'd never actually like then

you know when you so you post the quote and it will have who the writer is at the bottom I realised I never actually Googled until my friend recommended when I was at uni one day and she was like no here read it like read there's so many good ones I've seen you put it on your Instagram read the book and I was

like wow that's yeah that was my thanks Izzy she was my introduction properly is there a particular poem in Milk and Honey that stands out to you. I've got it with me. I brought it.

You should have reading. A reading, yes, please. A little recital. Do you know what? And actually it's changed. So that was funny. When I read it, this wasn't originally the one

that I'd be like, oh, it sticks out to me. What did you, what were you originally thinking? What changed? I don't know. I'll read it. And then, yeah.

So it was this one. It's, I want to apologize to all the women I've called pretty, before I've called them intelligent or brave. I'm so sorry I made it sound as though something as simple as what you're born with is the most you have to be proud of when your spirit has crossed mountains. From now on, I will say things like you were resilient or you are extraordinary. Not because I don't think you're pretty, but because you're so much more than that.

And I don't know, yeah, I just, when I was looking, because I was like, oh yeah, where's my favourite one? And then I fell on this one and was like, actually, I think that's my favourite one right now. Maybe that's the word. Right now is the operative phrase there. Maybe it's the one you need right now, the one you need today. Sometimes there's words that you need to hear that day. And I needed to hear that. That was, yeah, that was very beautiful. Thanks. Ruby. And you mentioned that you, you know, you like writing poems as well yourself. Yes. And one of my friends actually, Hussain Manwar, he's an amazing poet. He has a poetry book out. And then he asks some friends to write in his second one. And I was one of those friends who was asked, so I'm actually published poet. Now, you recently wrote a piece for Hussein Manoa's beautiful anthology. I wanted to quit two, along with the lights of Courtney Cox. This is a esteemed company to be in. Shnade Hartner, KS.I.

How did you feel when you were approached to write the piece and tell us a little bit about what you wrote? When he asked me, I was like, oh yeah, sick. He messaged me and was like, this is the, like, stimulus. This is where everyone's going. just write whatever comes to mind. And at the time, it was never like, oh, it's going to be in a book. So I was like, oh, okay, cool, yeah,

I'll just jot down some words. And with the I wanted to quit too, I think it was just after season two had come out. And I think also at the time of the Sagaf for strikes, so work was quite quiet. So in that moment, I was like, yeah, I feel you, I want to quit too. So my piece was just about, like getting through it and understanding that you'll have these feelings but but also understanding

at the same time you know you're not going to quit you just it's just you're just tired and it's it's a bit hard right now um so yeah I think writing it for me at the time it was quite therapeutic and then a couple of months later he was like oh I'm going to publish it in this book and I was like oh my gosh, no way. And then I think that's when I realized, oh, I'm actually like in a book. I'm a poet. I'm a poet and I didn't even know it. Whoa.

What's it feel like to put your own words down on the page when you're used to reading out the words of others? It was scary. I remember, and I speak about it in the poem, it was very scary. It was, because then it's like there and it's, I don't know. And as an actor, I'm so used to hiding behind other people's words and other people's characters, obviously, like, channeling my own through that.

And I think that's where my comfort lies. So it did take me out in my comfort zone. But, yeah, I liked it. So hopefully I'll do it more. Who knows? There must be something quite exposing when you're so used to inhabiting someone else's character, just being like, this is just pure me at this point. And even, like, who am I?

Yeah. I always have to think about that when your whole job is working out who everyone else is but also like you say, therapeutic, cathartic, all those jumble thoughts in our heads sometimes when you get them out, they feel a little less insurmountable.

You're talking to the piece a bit about imposter syndrome. Is this something that you have always struggled with? I can imagine in the world of tele and film, like it's a lot. It's a lot. How do you manage it? I think it's the support system around you and the support system I have. So like my family, my friends, my team, like my agents, my everyone who I work with,

I think that's important. I also think it's, yeah, just having those talks with yourself as well because I'd be a liar to say I don't get nervous and I don't think, oh my God, am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right place? Should I even be here? but I think it's having those little pep talks with yourself being like no you love this you have a genuine love for this no one can tell you otherwise or take you out like you're here so you must must be meant to be here you know what I mean um but yeah no it is it is something that I still struggle with I'm learning to get through

yeah and when you need that affirmation you can always turn to that poem by ruffie absolutely I think that can give you strength It's time of your fifth and final book. Now, I'm really interested in this one. I hadn't heard of it. I haven't read it. So, yeah, it sounds absolutely fascinating. Seven methods of killing Kylie Jenner by Jasmine Lee Jones.

Now, this is an innovative play, blending real life and online culture. A young black woman takes to Twitter, now called X, to voice her frustration with white women profiting off black culture and stereotypes. When the discourse turns on her, the line between, internet personas and IRL in real life relationships blurs. And the heightened scrutiny she comes under puts her real life friendship under strain. Seven methods of killing Callie Jenner combines theatre with gifts and memes and emojis to explore stereotypes of black womanhood, white capitalist exploitation and the politics of social media activism.

You have described yourself as obsessed with this play. Obsessed. You wrote your dissertation on it? I wrote my dissertation on it. What? And yeah, there's the book cover. I photoshopped my face on it. And another actress who I was training with, her face on it,

and handed that in as my dissertation cover. So I was like, Jasmine Lee Jones, I'm inserting myself here. That's in mood. I love it. No, it was, I think at the time, obviously, so I would have been third year uni, and that was 2020. so sort of in the beginnings of COVID, social media was like what everyone was on

because you can do anything. It was loud, yeah. And it was when I read it, it was the first time I thought, oh my God, we can use like technology and screens in theatre and it blew my mind. Obviously now we've had Jamie Lloyd's Sunset Boulevard where he incorporates screens and film. But like that was my first.

introduction to like oh yeah let's use tv and theatre in the same sort of thing let's use what we've got like so gifts and like social commentary i just thought it was brilliant what was your dissertation called what was it what was it so because i went to east 15 we had to like do our dissertation as if we were going to put on a play right so i used jasmine's play and was like how i was how I saw it being put it on. So I was like, I'd put it in a black box theatre because I wanted low costs so that everybody could come and see it.

Things like that. And I just thought it was a good play to use because it would engage modern audiences. I wanted everyone to be able to enjoy it. And also, I just think the themes that she talks about, like how social media does have such a big effect on our lives. And I think, yeah, she was talking about being some home truths, so I was saying.

Oh my gosh. So it deals with internet discourse with trolls, social media. At that time it was helpful and useful to us because we needed to be connected. But equally, it could be so damaging. And you've talked about trolls before. How do you deal with keyboard warriors? For me, I actually find it quite funny. It's a good way of looking at it.

Yeah, I'll look at it in the positive way and be like, like, ha ha, that's a cute opinion. You're entitled to your wrong opinion. Everyone's got an opinion so you can have yours. I don't think it's right. And I'm like, you're sat at home probably in your pajamas, typing that away. I'm on my way to work.

So that's, do you know what I mean? You've just got to go, okay, cool. You had the time to write that horrible thing. It says a lot more about you than me. So I think that's how I sort of deal with Charles. Don't really look for the, like look for negative things either. and yeah I think you just got to make light of things. Laugh it off.

That's what I do. I think it's the best way, honestly, because it's actually ludicrous. Yeah, it's ridiculous out there. Another important theme in this play is Black Womanhood, which is actually something that's explored in Essex Girl, the short film that you released last year. Tell me a little bit about that film.

What was it like making it? Oh, it was amazing. It was like It was one of the shorter filming experiences I've had I think we were only on it for In total maybe like two Two three weeks But it was just

Because it's set in like Two thousand and sixty 70 times So it's like you got your blackberries Your old The old makeup and it And it is just so like Black girlhood focused

So I absolutely loved it. Besayo who wrote it and also starred in it. Lovely, lovely writer and just managed to bring together such a sisterhood like cast. Like all those girls in it, I absolutely adore and it was, yeah, it was great and it. Filming it, I felt warm. And also, yeah, it does talk about at that age when you're in such a white, predominantly white school, like how you can maybe possibly, possibly, like not feel comfortable when you do go to black events and areas and meet other people like black

people so i think that was nice to do as well because i was like oh i felt that a point yeah so yeah it was lovely i absolutely love i i love any piece of art that acknowledges the fact that there are more shades to black than just the very you know popular in popular culture london centric um and you know not everyone's experience is that I'm from Newcastle it's very different and and and and and and and realizing that we can be more multifaceted than perhaps what is out there how important is it to you to show all these shades of the black experience and that they're actually infinite in the work that you do so important so important because it's that inclusivity isn't it is it it's making people feel seen and it's and it's getting away from the

stereotype because yeah I don't I don't have experience of like being in a gang and like that's what or being do you know just the stereotypical black experience not everyone has like what is depicted on on your top boys even though we love it like do you know I mean like that's not real life we need we can have that as a as a show but let's let's go in for the full range it's yeah I guess so much more to that it's a nuance that is that is at the heart of this seven methods of killing Kylie Jenner and that's what Jasmine Lee Jones is trying to get us to realise to see. Karina, I'm going to ask you just fine.

If you did have to choose one book from your eclectic selection that you brought today, as a favourite, Greener, which one would it be? Oh, it's hard. Okay, I think it would have to be children of blood and bone for now, yeah. Because that was the most recent one I read as well. But then it's hard because my heart's like, oh, shiver. But no, I'd say children of blood and bone. For that sprinkle of magic.

Just for that sprinkle of magic and culture and just badass girls. Well, that's what we're all about. That's what I want to hear, badass girls and a sprinkle of magic, which is what we need every single day. What brings you your sprinkle of magic day to day? I think it's just, smiles from anyone every like do you know yeah just the smiles that gives me my little boost of and my magic it's like what we said no matter what's going on around you there is joy to be found there

is beauty to be found so keep smiling thank you so much for making us all smile and for sprinkling magic it's been such an absolute pleasure thank you for having me i'm vic hope and you've been listening to the women's prize for fiction podcast this podcast is brought to you by bailey's and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.