Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep23: Bookshelfie: Maggie Aderin-Pocock

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Space scientist Dr Maggie Aderin-Pocock joins Vick to delve into her favourite science fiction books, tells us why dyslexic kids shouldn’t be pigeon-holed and explains why she encourages all children to reach for the stars.  Maggie is a space scientist and pioneering figure in communicating science, having spoken directly to over half a million people globally, 350,000 of whom are children.  She is committed to inspiring new generations of astronauts, engineers and scientists, and in 2009, was appointed an MBE for her services to science and education. She presents the new series of BBC’s The Sky at Night and Mini Stargazing for CBeebies. In 2016, she was nominated for a Children’s Presenter BAFTA and she recently won the Institute of Physics gold medal for ‘exceptional services to science education and physics communication’. She was made a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire in March 2024, for her services to ‘science education and diversity’. She is the current President of the British Science Association. Maggie’s new book, Webb’s Universe: The Space Telescope Images that Reveal Our Cosmic History, is the definitive book on the James Webb Space Telescope, with a full array of stunning images.  Maggie’s book choices are: ** The Many-Coloured Land by Julian May ** The Moonlight Market by Joanne Harris ** Noughts and Crosses by Malorie Blackman ** The Little Snake by A. L. Kennedy  ** Letters to my Daughter by Dr Maya Angelou Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Serious Readers are offering Bookshelfie listeners £100 off any HD light and free UK delivery. To take advantage of our Serious Readers discount code, please visit seriousreaders.com/bookshelfie and use the code SHELFIE.  There’s a 30 day risk-free trial to return the lamp for free if you’re unhappy with it for whatever reason. 

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Starts podcasting. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your home. for Season 7 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests, as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2024 reading list. Today I am joined by Dr. Maggie Adirin Pocock. Maggie is a space scientist and pioneering figure in communicating science, having spoken directly to over half a million people globally, 350,000 of them,

who are children. She is committed to inspiring new generations of astronauts, engineers and scientists, and in 2009 was appointed an MBE for her services to science and education. She presents the new series of BBC's The Sky at Night and mini stargazing for CBBs. In 2016, she was nominated for a children's presenter, BAFTA, and she recently won the Institute of Physics Gold Medal for exceptional services to science education and physics communication. She was made a Dame commander of the Order of the British Empire in March 24 for her services to science, education and diversity. She's the current president of the British Science Association and Maggie's new book, Webb's Universe, the space telescope images that reveal our cosmic history is the definitive book on the James Webb Space Telescope

with a full array of stunning images. Welcome Maggie. Thank you so much. That's quite an introduction. I've got a lot to live up to now. Well, I was actually, I'm just going to literally pick up your book right now because we were flicking through it before and this is a podcast so audio is everything and listen to this it's got a creak to it has and it's a tomb

It's a weighty book It's got Nike it's beautiful The images I mean talk us through it a little bit You're describing how these images were taken Yes how the images are taken and what they tell us about the universe

Because I think most people can sort of see A beautiful space image I think oh wow that is beautiful And I must admit many of them make my heart leap to see them because they're just so beautiful. But sometimes it's nice to get at the next level. What is this? What's it telling us?

What can we see in this image? And so that's the purpose of the book. So I love the images and they're beautifully spread out. But then also take the next step and sort of find out how we took it and what it's telling us. We were just speaking before we started recording about how I've actually interviewed you before back in 2020 when you were one of the science advisors on intergalactic, which was a drama on Sky

and it was brilliant it was so exciting it's a kick-ass women doing stuff that's what it was in space in space I don't get better than that for me

and I felt I learnt a lot because what can happen when talking about science talking about space talking about these things that I feel are so beyond the realms and my understanding is that you kind of switch off

because I'm like how could I possibly but you put things in layman's terms while also making me not feel stupid which is such an important skill and you know you're educating constantly as a science communicator

you can't give me a better compliment because I think there's so much exciting stuff and I think it should be accessible to everyone and also in terms of funding and things like that quite a bit of funding comes from sort of the UK

sort of taxes and so it's nice that we inform people what we're doing and what we're discovering and also how it's helping us too you. When guests come on this podcast, quite often if they are in the world of business or they write about history or science, I like to ask them whether their reading is a way of escaping from the world versus the research that they have to do for their work. But with you, actually, your research does take you out of this world. Quite literally. So when you read, do you turn to fiction

to find other worlds? Or do you not feel like you need that escape? I think I do. Also, I have a strong affinity with science fiction. I once gave a talk which was titled How Science Fiction Saved My Life because I'm dyslexic. And dyslexic, there's a Ying and Yang.

I've got many really positive things about dyslexia, but reading isn't one of them. And especially as a child, I didn't want to read anything. And also when you start with Peter and Jane, it's not a riveting tale. But what I found is when I started, my elder sister, Hal, used to tell me about some of the science fiction books she read. And they just seemed so engaging.

And that's what encouraged me to read. And then I would sort of devour books. And they were usually sort of science fiction, you know, set out their fantasy as well. And I think that is sort of reflected in the book choices I've made here as well. But it's science fiction, it's fantasy. And it takes me to other worlds. But it also gives me the idea of other possibilities.

And I think science fiction can really do that. for a scientist. Someone writes about a sort of a communicator on Star Trek and how they flip them open and sometimes thinks, well, why can't we do that? And then we get mobile phones. So they're almost like a precursor, like a flag or a map to perhaps what we could have in the future. What we see is future in science fiction can become sort of what we actually have today. I think we see that actually in quite a few of your book choices. A dystopia that actually is a reality that we now live, but it was written, you know, how many years ago. So when you were a child and you had your eyes open to science fiction, you fell in love with it.

Did this coincide with your interest in the universe in science, wanting to be an astronaut? No, actually, that came first, the idea of actually getting into space. And I can't remember a time where I didn't want to go into space. It's really weird. And I think there's a number of factors. I was born in 1968. In 1969, the moon landings happened. So I don't remember them.

People say I was taking my first wobbly steps as Neil Armstrong was taking his giant leap. So I don't remember the moon landing so as I was too young. But I think I just grew up in that bubble of excitement because this was a global phenomenon. Everybody was talking about it. Someone was saying that taxi drivers was saying, I'm going to make an EVI around here,

extra vehicle activity. And so the terminology of space became part of everyday parlance. And so I was growing up in that. And also, there were a few fundamental things. I don't know if you're familiar there was a cartoon called The Clangers Yeah I remember the Clangers Maybe I don't remember watching it at the time

But I've definitely got a bit of nostalgia about it Oh yes Because the Clangers were around when I was a child And they recently rebooted them And I was a bit worried Because Clangis was just so much a part of my childhood And they inspired me to sort of want to get out in space And discover what's out there

And so I thought you know Patsil that'll be high tech and digitise You're high with the Clangers I thought no that would be awful but actually sort of they brought them back and I met the woman who actually knits the clangers and I actually appeared in an episode of the clangers they made the little Maggie doll

and so it was why crazy childhood dream coming true I got to meet the clangers so they were very formative but it turns out that the clangers were a bit of a gateway drug they lead onto hardcore science fiction you start with the clangers before you know Star Trek and you were a trek

I have to live long and prosper I have to do the hands she's doing the hands this is a podcast so you can't see but she's doing this that. Maggie, let's talk about all those books that have shaped you and that feed into that love of the world and other worlds that you speak of. Your first book, shelvey book, is The Many Colored Land by Julian May.

In the 22nd century, a group of misfits and mavericks are preparing to leave behind everything they've known. Advanced technology has created a one-way time portal to Earth's Pliocene era six million years ago. Those seeking a better life are drawn to the promise of a simple utopia, but no one could have predicted the dangers on the other side. For the group, we'll end to the battleground of two warring alien races, exiled from a distant planet. And these races not only have potent mind powers, but seek to exploit and enslave humans for their own needs. The travellers are about to discover that their unspoiled paradise is far from Eden. Now you read this as a

student? Yes. Yes. And so I can't remember. I don't know of a first degree or PhD, but I was at university. And it just sort of a, I think there's a number of things that attracted me to this.

At first, the tech they have in this future, they have sort of tents which you sort of inflate or you pull a rip cord and this whole sort of a two-bedroom bungalow appears. Oh, I'd like that. I like the idea of camping, but yeah, camping in style. This really does that.

It's a glamping. And then also, I think what really appealed was the fact that they've met aliens. And so now Earth is part of a collective, which is a collective of aliens across the, I suppose, the galaxy, really. So these aliens work together and cooperate. And so I love the idea of that. But I think what really, really entranced me was the idea of metapowers, sort of telepathy, telekinesis, the ability to speak with other people with your mind, the ability to sort of lift object. with your mind. And so, yeah, the power of the human mind. And yes, I think perhaps for me, and I always use the retrospectoscope, sort of looking back to it, why was this important? And I think

it was just the idea of being able to communicate with no barriers. Sometimes I spent a lot of my time sort of saying things and they think, oh no, perhaps I phrased that wrong, perhaps I should have got that. But if you could communicate with your mind, that wouldn't happen. People know what you mean. And so that really appeals, I think. as someone who is a communicator how do you navigate this worry immediately after communicating that you haven't communicated something

the way you intended to? Yes, you live with it actually it's not so much through the science communication and with the science communication yes I've got facts and figures and so and I can rely on those and yes there have been news progress where I've come off and think

did I say Jupiter when I was meant to say Saturn because random things come out my mother sometimes. There is that fear. But generally speaking, I think I'm on firm ground. But it's on sometimes, maybe as you're trying to compliment someone and it comes out weird and you think, oh no, perhaps they misinterpreted it. It's that feeling of misinterpretation. But it's more of a personal challenge than a professional one. So you prefer to deal in facts and figures. It's quite interesting. We're talking about Star Trek. My favorite character in Star Trek was definitely Spock. And sort of transcended emotion, deals in facts and figures. And it's funny because I, I'm a lot of,

I think that's what I desire to be, but I'm not. Well, you're a human being. And I think quite an emotional one. I think I empathise and things like that. But I think Spock would have been a safety bracket. If I could live like that, Pat's life would be easier, but I'm not. I'm a touchy-feely sort of person.

You mentioned just a little while ago being dyslexic and that it can be an amazing thing, but it also can present challenges. do you feel like that's something that's made your future and your career and the possibilities open to you more difficult to access or actually it's been a really helpful superpower? So it's funny, that's a double-edged sword because one of the decisions I made quite early on,

so I did my degree in physics and I did a PhD mechanical engineering. When I was sort of first started my studies, I always had this image of me sort of sitting in a sort of a comfy chair somewhere You know, with a pipe, you're puffing quietly. We don't see enough women with pipes. I always wanted, in fact, I used to have a pipe, nothing in it, just to puff on. Yeah, just a bit distinguishing. Yeah, because I think a pipe indicates you're thinking deep thoughts.

And so, and this is my vision. But then I realized as I was going through university, that if I was going to have a career, which was based on writing papers, that was what was going to hinge my career, I thought, I didn't know I had dyslexia, but I knew I found writing hard. And so I thought, I need to go in something more practical and more hands-on. So in that respect, I think it has influenced the direction of my career. But at the same time, one of the things I realized is, although my written communication is challenging, writing books is hard for me. And I procrastinate terribly.

I always do them at 3 o'clock in the morning. It's okay, okay, I'm giving it. And so that's hard for me. But what I found is as I've grown older, some of the dyslexic benefits I have, like communication, empathy, storytelling. These are the things I've sort of pulled into my career. And so it made a natural sense to be a science communicator. And so it's a yin and yang. It's sort of a, they have steered me into a set direction,

but it steered me into a direction that I think I can thrive in and also a direction I love. Often when you're a child at school, the system is, it can be quite rigid and there's not really space for the different ways that different kids need to learn. So take me back to when you were at school, I know you grew up in London and you moved a lot due to your parents splitting up.

You went to 13 different schools. How did you find school? Well, from the get-go, from early on, I decided that I don't like school and school doesn't like me because I was having challenges, especially when you first start at school, it's all about reading and writing. And as a dyslexic, these are things that are fundamentally hard. And so other kids were sort of thriving. The thing is at home, I was considered to be quite bright. I used to play drafts with my sisters. And I was quite bright.

But when I went to school, it all crashed down. And also it was challenging for me because my father was brought up in Nigeria. He came here as an immigrant. And he was saying, your education is key. So when I was about four years old, three years old, my father was saying, so what Oxford College are you going to go to you? Because he realized that education is a transcender. It's sort of you can sort of leap social.

barriers with education. And so for me, going to school and suddenly saying, oh, no, you're pretty dumb, aren't you? Go to the back of the class. Here's the safety scissors and the glue. It didn't sort of reach my father's expectations. My expectations, I want to go into space. I want to be an astronaut. I decided education would be a good way of doing that. And again, education wasn't supplying that means of doing it. So I used to tend to fall asleep in class, just totally disengaged. And also, I think, yeah, also moving around, I was doing some research recently and I think I went to sort of four or five different primary schools. And that's just when you get, that's just when you're getting warmed up, really, in the school.

And so, yes, and so it was disjointed. But yes, from the get-go, I decided I didn't like school. But that did change. I would actually love to know if this changed something. So you told me that you didn't realize at the time of reading The Many Colored Land that the author Julian May was a woman. Yes. So when did you find that out?

And what did that change for you? Ah, well, you see, because the many-colored land is part of a huge consortium of books, and it creates a whole virtual universe with these sort of meta-powers and the time travel, but also the interaction between the different aliens out there in the galaxy. And I read it. Growing up, reading science fiction, some science fiction worked and some science fiction just didn't. And I think the sort of science fiction I was reading was science fiction from the 70s, And by the 80s, it was changing.

But science fiction from the 60s and 70s, you're women going, oh, no, save me. And that just really didn't appeal. Whereas this book, it was balanced. And the women were powerful and they had direction and things like that. And you didn't always get that in science fiction, which is why I sort of fell into this universe head first. My daughter and I talk about hyperfixations. I think this whole series of books became a hyperfixation for me. And I couldn't work out why I was enjoying it.

say. But I think it was written, I wouldn't say from a woman's perspective, but it just gave women sort of a fair crack at the whip. And so I didn't realize until quite recently that, yeah, Julian May was actually a woman. But it suddenly explained a lot of why I enjoyed this whole universe so much. Well, we move on now to your second book, which is set in a recognisable but alternative reality as well. And it's the moonlight market by Joanne Harris. orphans, lonely and lost in his photography work, Tom has no intention of falling in love. And yet love finds him in the shape of beautiful Vanessa, who lives a dangerous double life in the heart of London's King's Cross. Tom's pursuit of Vanessa leads him to discover an alternate

world, hidden amongst the streets and rooftops of London, and inhabited by strange and colourful beings. In this mysterious realm, two ancient factions, one of night, one of day, have waged war for centuries over a forbidden love and a long-lost prints of sun and starlight. But when Tom finds a secret market that appears only in moonlight where charms and spells are bought with memories, he starts to wonder whether he's been here before.

Tell us why you chose this book. So again, it's of the fantasy. And as you say, a market that only appears in moonlight. I, by definition, I'm a lunatic. Self-certified, but I am definitely a lunatic. I love the moon. all its sort of shapes and forms. And I feel quite bereft.

Two times when there's a new moon, and that's when you can't see the lit side of the moon. And also when it's cloudy, because I want to step outside and knock up. And you can see the moon during the day as well. And I want to step out and start, like, and I can't see the moon. And when I do see the moon, I actually physically change.

It's like an audible garter. Oh, whoa. And the thing is, of course, I've been seeing the moon for many years now, but it still has that effect on me. Doesn't get old, does it? No, no. And so I love this idea of moonlight and magic and a market that only appears in the moonlight.

And actually, as you read the book, as clouds come in, bits of the market start sort of disappear. And I think I am fascinated by science and logic, and I love all that, but I do like sort of the wispiness of magic. And also, I love the idea that what we call magic today is just science that we don't yet understand. And so, yes, maybe these,

There may be some of the things that are happening out there, paranormal activity, whatever. Maybe it's just that we don't understand it yet. We need, of course, evidence and we need to sort of analyse it. But I do like sort of analysing or looking at that sort of aspect. And this book does it beautifully. And I've read sort of many Joanna Harris books in the past. But this one, with that sort of magic and also two warring fractions and people caught up in that, the friction of that and how they navigate it.

it, I find fascinating. You've written books about the moon. Yeah, and I really enjoyed that. Because when I wrote about the moon, I wanted to write about the science of the moon, what we know, the moon landings, what we've discovered about the moon. I wanted to cover the science, but also some of how people have revered the moon. One of the things I'm fascinated by is something called archaeo-astronomy. Because when I was growing up, I thought that astronomy was just done by white guys.

in Togas, because you hear about the Greeks, you hear about the Romans. It seems to see if they had it, you know, astronomy captured. But archaeoastronomy shows you that every culture across the world, if you look back in time, has looked up at the light sky and many of them have looked up at the moon. So looking at the artifacts that have been built, the many objects, Machu Picchu, places like that, huge stone circles that have been sort of designed to sort of celebrate the moon. Looking at all that history from across the globe, I wanted to include that as well. but then also how people have celebrated the moon through poetry and art

and lots and lots of other things. So, yes. I love that there is such romance to science when you look at it that way. Yes. Because that's also a way that it can appeal to us. We talk about communicating and reaching all of these different audiences. You mentioned your clangers doll. I also want to bring up your Barbie doll.

Yes. Because you've become such an icon in science that you've had a Barbie created in your image and you've said, and I quote, I hope my doll will remind girls that when you reach for the stars, anything is possible. Again, it's such a beautiful way of putting it. How does it feel to be a role model? You know, to be in a position where you write books about the moon that are going to influence people and what they think about the moon.

That's kind of a big deal. It is, and it's a bit terrifying. And also, I remember when people first said, you know, oh, Maggie, you're such a role model. I must have I freaked out a bit because I know what I'm really like. And I didn't think I was role model material because to me, in the past I thought of role models as these brilliant, wonderful people, up on the pedal stalls, doing everything perfectly. And I know that that's just not me. I am pathologically late. It's because I'm an optimist.

I try and cram far too much in the day. And so I'm something, oh yeah, and I focus. I hyperfocus on each thing I'm doing. I'm hyperfocus into this. and oh my goodness, I'm late for the next thing. And so I think, so I'm pathologically late. I'm also criminally untidy. And I work from some people having an organising system.

Mine is the volcano heap. My paperwork is either in that volcano heap or isn't that volcano heap. I'm going in. A rope around my waist as I'm going through. It's the floor drape. Yes, yes, yes. I'm very familiar with the fraudulent. And so I thought that I couldn't possibly be a role model

because role models are these amazing, wonderful people. But I think I've since worked out to be a role model. You don't have to be perfect. In fact, when I go out and I speak to kids and I've got sort of jammed down my front and I say, I'm a space scientist, I'm doing this. I think being role models, they see me and they think, if she can do it, then so can I.

And to be a role model, I think you just have to have something you're passionate about. And for me, it's talking about space and the universe and everything. Shutting me up is the key, actually. I get very carried away. No, I love it. It's great. And I think that's what it is to be a role model, to have something to share.

And so now when people call me a wrong model, I say, thank you. That's lovely. But so are you, because you have something in your life that you want to share and tell people about. And that's what makes the world a better place. Bayleys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat Whether shaken in a cocktail

Over ice cream or paired with your favourite book Check out bailey's.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes Now I'm feeling very autuminal at the moment I'm all wrapped up in a jumper And as the nights draw in here in London I'm really loving just spending my evenings Curled up on my sofa

With a good book Of course I am However I have noticed it's getting darker earlier And the lights are on as well as the heating. This is where my new lamp comes in. I've been trying out the new serious reader's high-definition light. Now, what makes this lamp stand out, you may ask?

Well, this lamp has a special built-in feature called daylight wavelength technology that essentially replicates normal daylight indoors. This means that the words appear more clearly on the page in front of me. There's more contrast on the page from the HD light, so my eyes are less tired and I can read for longer. And the great news is that serious readers are offering books, Shelfy listeners £100 off any HD light and free UK delivery, so you can too. All you've got to do is visit

Seriousreaders.com forward slash bookshelfy and use the code Shelfy. That's S-H-E-L-F-I-E to secure yours today. There's a 30-day risk-free trial to return the lamp for free if you're unhappy with it for whatever reason, and I'll be very surprised if you are. You can return it without any hassle. You'll find the details of the offer in the episode notes in case you missed them. So come on. Protect those eyes and join me in some serious cozy reading this autumn. The third book you have brought today is by an author who's a real role model for me and who has made the world a better place, I do believe. It's Naut and Crosses by the legend that is Mallory Blackman. Sephy is a cross. She lives a life of privilege and power,

but she's lonely and burns with injustice at the world she sees around her. Callum is a naught. He's considered to be less than nothing, a blanker. there to serve crosses, but he dreams of a better life. Now, they've been friends since they were children, and they both know that as far as it can ever go, nauts and crosses are fated to be bitter enemies. Love is out of the question. Then, in spite of a world that is fiercely against them,

these star-cross lovers choose each other. But this is a love story that will lead both of them into terrible danger and which will have shocking repercussions for generations to come. Mallory Blackman is a very popular author on bookshelfy. This is a seminal piece of why a fiction. I think it stands up as well as a work for adults as much as for teenagers. Why did Nauts and Crosses resonate with you so much? So is that just supposition?

So because the crosses in this case are black and the Nauts are white. And it talks about their world and about the challenges they face. And sometimes the best. intentions can go awry. And it sort of explores the world, but from a very different perspective. But the perspective isn't that's that different. It's just sort of looking at it from a slightly different viewpoint. And I love the way she takes us in and we make assumptions and then those assumptions are blown out of the water. And I met Mallory Blackman once or twice and just a lovely woman. Yeah, Auntie Mallory. Yes. And I was talking to her and she was explaining how she had difficulty

getting the book published. No one's going to want to sort of hear about this. And the thing is, it's such a powerful tale. And she had to sort of champion the book and overcome hurdles to get it out there. And I've been reading it. And my daughter, who's 14, has also been reading it. And so, although I was audio booking it. And so, but it just tells a tale.

And it makes us think about the situations we're in. And because it gives us a different viewpoint. And I think that's just so powerful. Yeah. I mean, rather than being in an ultimate. reality, it's just an inverted one. Yes. It's the one that we recognize our own. And there was a lot of, not backlash,

but it seemed to be adults who had a problem with the idea of being called racist, where children completely understood what it was teaching them, what it was showing them, it was holding a mirror up. One of the central tenets is race, it's racism, how it can create divisions. We've talked about how you hadn't seen women represented in science, science fiction in the novels you were reading and what a difference that made when you knew that that perspective could be a woman's. What role has race played in your career? So it's quite interesting.

I think in some ways I've been lucky because as we were discussing, I got the space bug before I can remember. And it has been the driving force in my life. I've always wanted to get out into space. There was only one time that I deviated from that. And that's when my daughter was born. because I thought, well, I better hang around and make sure she's okay. On this planet. Yeah, yeah, on the time.

And when she was little, I remember when she was about four or five years old, she said, Mommy, when I grow up, we're going to go into space together. And I'm going to do the art and you're going to do the science. We'll travel together. I'm going to hold her to that. And so growing up, I had that bug. And so I was mentioning, you know, I thought that it's only sort of a white guys in tokens that did astronomy. These sort of ideas are out there.

but because my dream for some reason was so powerful, I didn't let those hold me back, but I know they're holding many people back. And also, sort of going along and being a role model, as you say, sometimes it's sort of trying to break those barriers. I go out to schools an awful lot and speak to people and say, I'm a scientist and they sort of give a double take. You're a scientist.

You don't look how we expect a scientist to look. And so I think it's really important to show if you have the aptitude and the passion, then this is a subject for you too. And I think it's really bad as a society, we steer kids into things. When I was growing up, when I said I wanted to sort of be a scientist, you know, study space, one of my teachers said, oh, Maggie, you know, you're not very academic and, you know, why don't you go into nursing? Because I don't think they could see a sort of a black but dyssexic kid as a space scientist.

And so I think, and that's why I like to tell kids, reach for the stars, see what makes your heart sing, and then go for that. Because if you work in something you love, it's going to be much better. And I don't think I have had some sort of a bias. I remember turning up at some offices one day to see one of my contractors. And I was fairly fresh out of university, so you're like Dr. Maggie, ready to you? I'm wearing a suit and carrying a briefcase. And sort of walking out there and getting to the... the security gate and a guy passing me a set of keys and saying,

start at the office at the back, start cleaning and then work your way forward. Your gasp is. Oh my God. It's just the assumption. But things, when you're in a circumstance like that, you have a split second to decide how am I going to respond to this? And I think there's a number of ways you can show you, you know, double barrel shock. You know, I think is there's nothing wrong with being a cleaner, but it's just the

assumption. He sees a black woman. He assumes that I'm a cleaner. And so, but to me, what I like to do is try and sort of a re-education. And so they have that stereotypical view. And I want to change that view. And if I get sort of huffy or angry, then that education isn't going to work. It's going to reinforce what they think.

Yes. And so it's trying to sort undermine it by saying, oh, hi. Well, my name's Dr. Maggie. I'm here to see one of my contractors, Steve. And so try and sort of diffuse the situation. But then also show him that they're. there's another way. And so that's happened a few times in my life.

And it is trying to keep a calm head. And also, I have internal biases and some I know about and sometimes I can deal with and some I don't. And so it is trying to just be aware and sometimes something will come up and make me aware of it.

And it's taking that on board and not getting defensive. You were saying like Mallory's book, people were saying, well, you know, we're not racist and things like that. I think we all have our biases. And so, but if we fight it

and hide it, That's what makes the world a much worse place. We need to accept that we all have this and accept where they are and then work on. And this is why representation matters. This is why your doll encouraging kids to reach for the stars. This is why Nauts and Cross is pressed into the hands of children so they can understand the world they live in. And right and wrong when their moral compass is so clean at that age is so important. And from a young age, you are conditioned to believe that you can fit in.

into certain places and perhaps you can't fit into others. There are a lot of kids out there at the moment who are very disenfranchised, who don't feel they belong in certain spaces. Over the past 20 years, you have focused on encouraging underrepresented groups to enter STEM careers, that's science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And we do need this drive at the moment in the UK to students studying STEM subject at university for economic reasons. Why is this so important to you?

Why is this such a passion? So for me, because I went through a system and I had my eyes fixed on the stars, I didn't fall into many of the pit holes that I think other kids might fall into. Because I was, yeah, space, that's where I'm going. I don't care how I get there, but that's where I'm going. But for many people, they don't see a space or science stem, as you say, science technology, engineering and mass for them. And so it really drove it home as I was working as a space scientist. I was working on sort of a big satellites, things like the James Webb Space Telescope, telling us sort of amazing things about the universe.

But when I was trying to actually recruit people to come and join me as space scientists, I wasn't getting any takers, let alone a diverse set of takers. So I decided I wanted to get out there. So this was about 20 years ago. I'm going to go out and I'm going to speak to people and sort of encourage them to think about, you know, this is a career for them because we need them. I think our future is in space. Our future is very much hinged on STEM.

And if STEM has just been done by a small demographic, you know, white male people, then it means that STEM isn't really working for everybody. And there's some horrible examples of that in AI and things like that, where some AI don't recognise female voices because it's all been trained on men and things like that. And the solution was, well, just speak in a deeper voice. Oh, no. How can that be the solution? You train your AI.

You're eliminating 50% of the population. You're just speaking a deeper voice. It's ridiculous. lesson. So it is so important that we have a diversity in STEM. And as you say, it makes economic sense. When you have diverse teams working on things, you have ideas coming from different viewpoints. And of course, you progress faster. You problem solve quicker. So it all makes so much sense. So I decided to go out and start speaking to kids. And I don't like to target sort of girls or target people from ethnic minorities. I want to speak to everyone, but have a few sort of

gems like archaeoastronomy. Astronomy has been done by every culture across the world and successfully. And so many cultures knew much more about the universe before Europe did. And so it's just showcasing what is actually out there. So people think, oh yeah, well, yeah, why can't I do this? This is for me too. And I think that's so important. Important as individuals.

Stone careers are pretty cool. I am totally biased. I'm totally biased. They can be pretty cool. I'm actually being quite swayed. I might just change. Join me. Join me.

Starts podcasting. Maggie, your fourth book, Shelby book today is The Little Snake by A.L. Kennedy. Now, this is the story of Mary, a young girl born in a beautiful city full of rose gardens and fluttering kites. When she's still very small, Mary meets Landmow, a shining golden snake who becomes her very best friend. The snake visits Mary many times. He sees her city change, becomes sadder as bombs drop, and war creeps in. He sees Mary and her family leave their home. He sees her grow up and he sees her fall in love.

But Landre knows that the day will come when he can no longer visit Mary, when his destiny will break them apart, and he wonders whether having a friend can possibly be worth the pain of knowing you will lose them. From one of Britain's most gifted and celebrated writers, the Little Snake is a magical and deeply moving fable about the journey we all take through life,

about love and family, about war and resists, and resilience about how we live in this world and how we leave it. Now the Little Snake is a fable and A.L. Kennedy is known for her short stories, perhaps more so than her novels. Can you tell us why you selected the Little Snake? So I encountered this sort of fairly recently and just fell in love with it because it is just a really simple story. But it covers and encompasses so much. and A.L. Kennedy's words, I've

encouraged her work before. The first time I saw it, I wasn't familiar with her at all. And I just read a book of her short stories. And one of her stories just stays in my mind. It was about a flower that's blooming. And it's like a thought message that someone gave to someone. And when I'm going through a hard time,

sometimes that comes into my mind. And so it's really powerful stuff. And I think this book is, as well. It tells this journey. And it talks about resilience and sort of how you survive, but I recently became an ambassador for the International Rescue Committee. They do every year a watch list, which is looking at the 10 worst effective areas in the world and the things that they're going through and the challenges they're facing.

And Mary's story in this book, it sort of starts off as a wonderful place, but then slowly but surely degrades as war and fractions appear. And so we take our sort of what we call civilisation as for granted. But yes, to me it is a fragile thing. And I think it's something that many people are realizing are so fragile because they're living in these affected areas. And so to see this, but it's funny, it doesn't harp on about the wall or about the terrible things that are happening. You see it from Mary's perspective as she sort of navigates through and takes on the challenges that she faces. And it's just sort of beautiful and kind.

And it thinks about, yeah, emotions. The snake isn't used to emotions. And when he has feelings, it's sort of, yeah, what's this? I don't know if I like this. And so it's seeing it from a different perspective again. And I think I do like that. When we take things for granted, but you can see it from a different perspective.

And things that make me think, that's one of the things my dad taught me. When we watching television as a child, we'd watch TV and I was like, why do you think they're doing that? And I'll think, oh yeah, I haven't thought of that. So you'd go down to the next level, what is the motivation behind things?

So anything that makes me think I love. And this book definitely made me think. What did you learn from it? Ah. Sometimes we can get caught up in the detail. And what I loved about Mary is she sort of transcended that. She had a goal in mind and she went about that goal. And as problems came along, she tackled them. She was resilient. And I think that's perhaps one of the most powerful things you can be. The only constant in life is change. And so if you can roll with those changes, you'll probably have a happier life. You mentioned that you were drawn to Kennedy's writing because of the way it makes you feel. We've discussed feeling and emotion versus the fact. When you're addressing an audience and you have really important stuff that you want them to understand about science, what is it you want them to feel?

Oh, yes. I think that feeling is critical. And so, and the feelings comes in many different ways. I think, so I want them to feel sort of my passion. Why am I excited about this? These are the facts and the figures, but why do I find this so fascinating? And what does it mean to them? So I'm talking about things in the far, far universe, sort of light years, billions of light years away even. So why is it relevant? And I like to sort of point out that it's relevant because we are part of this. This is our cosmos, our universe. And so yeah, we should we should have feelings about this. And also I work as a space scientist, so I make big telescopes that you know, deep into space. on the ground and in space. But also, most of the work I've done is Earth observation. So satellites that sit in space and look at our planet,

help us understand the changing situation in our planet, climate change, what's happening there. And so it gives us that understanding. I like to talk about a beautiful picture called Earthrise. And it was taken by the Apollo 8 mission. So Apollo 8 didn't get the fun of actually landing on the moon. That was Apollo 11. But Apollo 8 went through all the paces.

So they sort of left Earth, they were sick and navigated the moon, and then they came back to Earth and landed. So it was like a test run. But while they were out there, one of the things they did is they were flying over the moon surface. And as they were flying over the surface, they suddenly saw planet Earth rising in front of them. And they said, I've actually seen sort of the telemetry of what they said. And they were saying, my goodness, have you seen that? Hey, hey, look at the window.

This is amazing. Hey, pass me the camera. Make sure it's the colour film. I've got to capture this. And they took this picture and it's called Earthrise. And people feel that images like that inspired the environmental movement. So when you saw our planet,

not as the place we run around and we do things, but from space in that dark velvety, but also as vulnerable. Again, emotion. Suddenly we saw our planet as different. We see, oh, we need to nurture it. People say that the ideas of Gaia and the environmental movements

and how we need to look after our planet came out partly from pictures like that. And so I think sometimes putting emotion to, you could see. as a scientific picture. This is, we're on the moon, this is the earth. But it tells you so much more, and it makes you feel, and it makes you want to do something.

So, yes, I think science and emotion can be very much linked. And one of the things I try and do in the book as well, talk about my excitement about working on the James Webb Space Telescape, one of 10,000 scientists across the world and the fear on Christmas morning, 2021, when it's been launched, and we're all there, oh, will it go up? You know, if it doesn't, you know, all this years of work going down the drain.

So yes, I think emotion is definitely, and it's sharing that emotion with people so that they can feel it too. We go on a journey. It's the storytelling, which is one of the dyslexic traits. No, it's this amazing journey. In Webb's universe, the space telescope images that reveal our cosmic history. You really do bring your passion and words can change the world. It's expert knowledge, but it's also, you know, feeling, like you said, you explain the telescope's images. Tell me a little bit about the writing process, though, for you. Yes. Painful. Okay. Okay.

And the thing is, it's really weird because I've written a few books, and I still have this internal fear of writing. So at the moment I'm doing an application, and I've got all the ideas in my head, but it's translating those ideas from my head to the page, and that proves to be very challenging for me. And so, yeah, the ideas, you know, fine, it's sparking off, and I love it. And also, what I do, if I get started,

So usually for me, the writing places involves me doing everything else, sometimes even tidying the house. I get it. That is low of the low for me. And so writing comes underneath after the floor drove. Yes, being sort of, I know. Okay, isn't it good? The deadline's gone. I have to write.

And so it's usually 3 o'clock in the morning when it's nice and quiet, so no distractions. And sometimes I'm sitting up in bed with my laptop and then I start typing. And when I start typing, the ideas can start flowing out. And it's like a hyperfixation. I sort of dive in and I'm in there and I'm immersed and I think, oh yeah, I want to tell them this. Oh, well, let's look up this. And then the process starts and it's quite a lovely process. I really enjoy it.

But it's the fear. Maybe I'll dive in and it won't come together or it won't, the words won't come. Or sometimes when I get it down on the page and I read it back and I'm reading back what I think of written while than what I have actually written, that it makes it really challenging. And so one of the things I love is that I'm with a publisher that understands that. and they will take my three o'clock ramblings and convert it into something that's sort of, you know, readable and sort of a, but they keep the passion that I'm trying to get in there, but put it into proper sentences and things like that. And so it is a slightly painful process, but I must admit, when I'm in the, it's like being in the eye of the storm or falling into the black hole. When I'm in there, I love it. I'm elated and the ideas are flowing. But it's just sort of that leap, it's almost like a leap of faith to get in there.

You said the word hyperfixation again there, which was how you described yourself and your daughter reading The Many Coloured Land by Julian May, your first book. And it brings us so neatly onto your fifth and final book, shelfy book, because I'm going to talk about your daughter. This is Letters to My daughter by Dr. Maya Angelou, dedicated to the daughter she never had, but sees all around her. Letters to my daughter reveals Maya Angelou's path. to living well and living a life with meaning. Told in her own inimitable style, this book transcends genres and categories. It's part guidebook, part memoir, part poetry,

and just a pure delight. Here in short essays, a glimpses of the tumultuous life that led Angelou to an exalted place in American letters and taught her lessons about compassion and fortitude, whether she is recalling lost friends or extolling honesty or simply, singing the praises of a meal of red rice, Maya Angelou writes from the heart to millions of women.

Like the rest of her remarkable work, Letter to My Daughter, It entertains and teaches. It is a book to cherish, savour, reread and share. How did you come across this book? So I was familiar with the works of Dr. Andrew, and I've read many of books. I know why the cage birds sings. And I was reading that. I get involved I get emotional

and sometimes reading these things oh no and the things that happen to her just and I get frustrated and angry on her behalf and so I was familiar with her work but when I saw this

letters to my daughter I have quite a close relationship with my daughter and I thought that was a lovely thing and also a daughter she never had and so I think she almost had a son but I think circumstances didn't allow her to have her son. But I loved the idea of, you know, but my daughters are everywhere.

And this is the message I want to give them so that they can hopefully lead happy lives. And I read that and I thought, oh, yes, yes, this is a book for me, but it's a book for my daughter too. And just sort of going on that journey with her. And some of it is, oh, it sort of makes you wince. And some of it is just, as you said, you know, sort of a lovely meal of sort of a... And so just so the joys in life and how we can find them and utilise them. And so yes, that's how I bumped into it. And I'm glad I did.

You said a little earlier that your dad used to ask you to tell him what you had learned from something that you saw on the TV. Or just, you know, encourage you to interrogate what was happening in your mind and also in the world around you. Yes. And you've spoken publicly about your father's support and encouragement. how important was that as a child and how did that relationship develop into later life? Yes. My father, an example, when I was,

I'm one of four sisters. And one day my father, I said, Dad, Dad, what did you look like when you were a kid? And I said, oh, hold it. I've got a picture. Come upstairs. And we went upstairs. And he put me in front of the dressing room mirror.

I said, that's what I look like. Oh, it's me. And so we had this sort of synergy. I think he could see a lot of himself in me. And also he was a thinker. I'd say a philosopher. He liked to, in fact, that's what I, when he passed away, and it's about 20 years ago, 23 years ago now,

on his team's day, I wrote, father, brother, teacher, philosopher, friend. Because there's all the things he represented for me. And, yeah, and he was a lovely father. I'm working against yours because looking after kids and so quite challenging and it took its toll on his health but he was also like a brother and it's funny because I'm quite like a sister to my daughter and then but yeah philosophy

when I was studying for my GCSEs and my A levels my school flipped over so I said I really didn't like school when I was young and I went to 13 different schools but I realised that if I wanted to get into space education would be a wonderful way of doing it And so my father and I would study together, would study physics together. And I say, yeah, we used to go to the library and get books.

And I say that to my daughter. Why don't you just use the internet? It wasn't around. Shocker. I know. When I say that, it imagines me and my father running around with dinosaurs. Before the internet, yeah, that was there. That's history.

And so, but yeah, we used to study together. And it's like, you know, I didn't learn it like that when I was at school and things like that. And I like to do that with my daughter now as well. And so, yeah, he was like my companion. And, but yes, but that thinking, and I think he can give no better gift, actually, but than the gift of thought. How do you go about, you know, thinking about things? Not taking life or the universe or anything else as just a given.

But yeah, Delvin, and that's what I do as a scientist, I guess. I want to understand. It's that curiosity. You question everything. Yes, yes. And it can be a right pain sometimes. But you just want to get on with things and your mind is buzzing all the time. But I think that's a brilliant gift he gave me.

So, yes. A parent who encourages you to question everything, what a special thing that is. He would be so, so proud. I know you went to boarding school amongst, you know, the many schools. And this is a novel selection of essays. It's a letter format.

I'd love to know, did you write letters when you were born? Because, of course, there wasn't the internet. No, that's what I was. Did you write letters home yourself? It was such an immediate format. It was. We were forced to write letters. Right. Which it sort of cooks it in a slightly different light. Okay.

So at boarding school, there were sort of weekly borders, but I was sort of a termly border, even spent some holidays at school when my dad was of a way working. And so we had to write. And the thing is, when you have to write, it's sort of, yeah, what do I say? Hi, dad, doing homework. And actually, again, looking back, I wish I'd been, I could have put some of the way I was feeling. But the letters were very pedestrian. But now I think if I was to write a letter to my daughter, what would I say?

And I think it's something I'd love to do. Yes, letters to my daughter and to my daughter and perhaps other people. Those are things that I've learned. And yeah, think big, think crazy. Reach for the Stars. Things like that. Dis encouraging and so uplifting, which is just how this book is. Yeah, letters to my daughter.

It's filled with so much wisdom, so many life lessons. So, yeah, if you were, To write that letter to your daughter, what life lesson that you've learned that stuck with you that you kept coming back to do you think would go in there? Yeah. I think it would be, well, if possible, have a big, crazy dream. Because one of the things I think that's dictated my life is having an almost impossible dream. I still want to get into space. It's more of a retirement plan now. But I still want to get out. there. And by having that dream, it means that I've, it's given me resilience. I often say to kids that success isn't about not failing. Success is about how you pick yourself out when you do fail.

And the number of times there I've been, you know, I haven't got the right grades or something that's gone wrong or I've applied for a job and it hasn't come through and I'm sitting there in the mud, you know, feeling sorry for myself, you know, and bemoaning. And I think you need that It's part of the cathartic process. But at the same time, it's how you pick yourself up from that, you know, puddle in the mud. And having a big dream enables you to do that. You think, well, yeah, if I'm going to get there to that shiny land over there, I've got to pick myself up. And, okay, this route isn't working.

I've got to find another route. I mentioned that in one life I wanted to work in sort of space and astronomy. And when I left university, I couldn't get a job in that at all. I applied for a few nothing taking. And so my journey into working into space and astronomy was very convoluted, many pitfalls on the way. But because I had that dream, it drove me on. So I think it's lovely to have a dream. Maggie, when will you go to space?

I'm working on it. I feel it's an exciting time at the moment. I like to call it a Battle of the Billionaires where people have made heaps of money are thinking, how do I leave my legacy? and they look at it with space. And also at the same time, space is becoming sort of a, in the past it was just sort of

government organisations that sent people into space. So just over 600 people who have ever lived have been in space so far. But now people are talking about space tourism. And I can see it going

sort of like computers or sort of airplanes. Back in the 1940s, it was only the great and the good that went on airplanes. But now, if you've got a very cut price airlines,

and things like that. And we say that when the White brothers did their first flight, no one anticipated easy jets. I don't want to be taking Easy Jet to space. That's it. We have to go through a learning curve. And sometimes it can be steep and it can be dangerous for those first pioneers.

But I think there's a demand. One of the things I've done over the past 20 years is when I give a talk, I often like to ask, you know, how many people here would like to go into space if it costs, you know, the same price as the first class ticket to New York and was as safe as air travel.

And the majority of hands, and over the years, more and more hands have been going up. And I think commercial space are realizing this, there's a market out there. And that will sort of drive it. So I think in my lifetime, I'll get out there. Well, on the subject of legacy, what do you want to inspire in the next generation of astronauts and engineers and scientists? Just that curiosity, I think, that thirst for knowledge. but that thirst for knowledge and the ability to use it to make Earth a better place. Because I think I do love it that we look deep into the universe and try and understand everything.

But it's also nice that we use space to enhance people's lives on Earth. And space can really do that. I've worked with many organisations. The sort of satellites are called the disaster monitoring constellation. So a group of satellites that orbit the Earth, they take images. But when there's a disaster, they'll take pictures of the affected areas and send those down to NGOs to governments so that you can get help to people quickly.

And so space can do so much more telemedicine. Having sort of satellites in orbit around the earth means that people in refugee camps can find work because they've got internet access in a place where you probably don't have the local beacons for that internet access. So all these different ways that space can help, but stem in general,

it makes such a difference to our lives. And so I want everybody to be aware of it, of that difference, but also be aware that it can be used for amazing things but it can use for darkness as well. Atomb, landmines, all sorts of things. So let's everybody be aware

and let's direct STEM in a direction that is for the good of humanity rather than just the good of a few. The scope is infinite, but it's like we keep saying it has to be used alongside our humanity, our empathy, our feeling. Maggie, this has been such.

an illuminating chat. I loved it. I have one more question for you, and that is if you had to choose one book from your list as a favourite, which would it be and why? I think it's probably Maya Angelou. Because sharing those life lessons, looking at her life and the challenges she faced,

but she comes out with it with these wonderful gems of wisdom. I think it would be nice to share that as widely as possible. What a perfect answer. This has been wonderful. Maggie Adirin Pocock, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for a riveting conversation. I've so enjoyed myself. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast.

This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.