Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep24: Bookshelfie: Cariad Lloyd

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

Comedian Cariad Lloyd explains how she unexpectedly became part of the death community and why Half of a Yellow Sun should be part of the curriculum.  Cariad is an award-winning comedian, actor and writer. She is the creator and host of the award-winning podcast Griefcast and the smash-hit improv show Austentatious. She has starred in TV shows such as Alan Partridge, Peep Show, Inside No. 9 and featured on Have I Got News For You, Would I Lie to You and QI. Cariad’s first book You Are Not Alone was a New Statesman, The Times and Express book of the year in 2023. And her new children’s book, The Christmas Wish-Tastrophe, is out now. Cariad is no stranger to book chat, co-hosting a podcast with fellow comedian Sara Pascoe called Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club, where they discuss weird books with their famous friends. Cariad’s book choices are: ** Moominland Midwinter by Tove Jansson ** By Grand Central Station I Sat Down and Wept by Elizabeth Smart  ** Half of a Yellow Sun by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie ** Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel  ** The Bay of Noon by Shirley Hazzard Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Serious Readers are offering Bookshelfie listeners £100 off any HD light and free UK delivery. To take advantage of our Serious Readers discount code, please visit seriousreaders.com/bookshelfie and use the code SHELFIE.  There’s a 30 day risk-free trial to return the lamp for free if you’re unhappy with it for whatever reason. 

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I think it just cemented for me of like there is this other side to life. There's this side which is death. And death is not something that happens to a few people. It happens to everybody. All these people in your school who look like they're having a great time will also die. I sort of could see us all dying. I mean, I was an absolute hoot at teenage party. I can't tell you. Everyone wanted to have to chat with me.

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 7 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my first. incredible guests as we talk about the books you'll be adding to your 2024 reading list.

Today I'm joined by Carriad Lloyd's. Carriad is an award-winning comedian, actor and writer. She's the creator and host of the award-winning podcast Griefcast and the smash hit improv show, ostentatious. She starred in TV shows such as Alan Partridge, Peep Show, Inside Number Nine and featured on Have I Got News for You? Would I Lie to You and QI? Carriad's first book, You Are Not Alone, was a new statesman, The Times and Express Book of the Year in 2023, and her new children's book, The Christmas Wish Tastrophe, is out now. Carriad is no stranger to boot chat, co-hosting a podcast with fellow comedian Sarah Pasco called Sarah and Carriad's Weirdo's Book Club, where they discuss weird books with their famous friends.

Carriad, welcome. It's such a pleasure to see you today. I just want you to be, I might listen to this podcast before bed, because that's a much nicer monologue then what happens when I try and go to sleep. You've never done anything. What are you going to do tomorrow? And I was like, what a nice voice to just list what I've done. I was like, yeah, it's okay. Send me your CV and I'll record a couple of bits.

Carrie, I had worked for Deborah Smith for a little while. And did really well. Did really well. She was in charge of children's books. And now look at her. No, that was lovely. Thank you very much. Oh, you're very welcome.

It's my pleasure. Well, firstly, tell me why have you named your podcast, the Weirdo's Book Club? Right, yeah. That was classic me and Sarah. So Sarah wrote her first fiction book, which came out last year, 2023. I'm still dealing with pandemic time. Listen, it's 2020, right?

Every day is every day. Yeah. We were on the lift on the way down and were like, is it Sunday? Sunday, yeah. I was saying Miranda, July's or fours, it's always Tuesday. It's always Tuesday. So Sarah wrote her first fiction of a weirdo, and she said to me, oh, I might do like a podcast, you know, kind of tie in with the book.

as people do these days. And then we kept talking. She was like, oh, well, wouldn't it be? Maybe we should just talk about books because I went to university with Sarah. So she's been my best friend for a very long time. And that's basically what we do is gossip about people we know and talk about books. And so she was like, well, let's just call it the weirdos book club because we can sort of, it was originally supposed to be about her book.

And then it became about lots of other books. So that's, and all books have a weirdo. So we say it's for like we have to have a weirdo in it. but basically all books have a weirdo. And we're all weirdos as well. So it's for the weirdos. It's for the weirdos. And that's the great joy

whenever anyone suggests the book. They're like, oh, I don't know if it'd be, you know, right for your one. And you're like, it's a book. It was written by a weirdo. And there'll be a weirdo in it. It's fine. Pretty much any book passes.

How do you go about choosing which books you discuss? So sometimes it's just a book me and Sarah want to read. So it's like, you know, those books are like on your list and you keep seeing them, everyone, I want to read that. So we'll say to each other, this will allow me to read it, allow me to buy it, make sure it happens.

So there's that. And then when the guest comes on, we try and choose a book for them. So we try and think, you know, like what works they've done, what they're into or what we think, what we think they would enjoy. So we try and sort of curate a book that we think, oh, if they haven't read that, they should. Occasionally guests choose a book. We very rarely let them do that. But occasionally, if they're very strapped for time, they're like, I've just read this.

And we're like, okay, that's on our list. So you can do it. But mostly we, yeah, have a good think about someone. And the vibe they give off and like what it seems like they're into and we asked them what the last thing they were read was. And just like a book person, you're like, oh, well, if you like that, have you read this? And if they're like, no, you've got to read that. That's like up your street.

So that's kind of how we and then we watch out back and forth for ages being like, what about this, what about this, what about this? And we're like, oh my goodness, swing time, Sadie Smith. Of course. That's what they should read. So yeah, that's how we do it, very scientific. And that's the one. It must give you a great deal because it's technically work.

Yeah. But what a great way. And I feel the same about doing this because reading is my joy, my one true love. And I feel so, so blessed to get to call this a job. But it gives you so much. Yeah, I feel, as I'm sure, like you saying, you feel really lucky. Like, how did I get this? Like, the girl who grew up reading, who did an English degree,

who reading's always been a constant. And now someone's like, well, you now have to read this book. You would have read anyway. You were going to read it anyway. And then you get to talk to your best friend and friends about it. And it also means we get to, I get to see Sarah as well because we're both very busy and we both have small children. So that's quite difficult to have those conversations about the books without being interrupted. So, yeah, I feel like amazingly blessed that this thing that I do anyway that I enjoy that is not a chore.

and like sometimes I'll be at home reading and like if my husband's like what you're doing I'm like it's for work it's for work because you feel like this just to sit and read feels like such a luxury especially as a parent so yeah we've we're on episode 50 something

56 maybe and it's very nice to also have like a record of everything you've read and when people ask you oh what would you recommend you like hang on a minute oh I like that one and oh yes that one like you know You've got like, it's like an online diary of everything you've enjoyed. But people are constantly in search of that perfect reading list.

Yeah. Where can I just find the recommendation? So at least takes that out of the process of choosing. Because people are so strapped for time. So strapped time. And you just want it pressed into your hands. Yeah. And know that if I delve into this, the journey is going to be all right.

And I feel very confident now about recommending things. Whereas before I'd be like, oh, you know, when I was really struggling to keep up with reading. You'd be like, oh, I read it, but it took me six months. and yeah, I think I liked it. I can't really remember. But it's now I'm like, no, I read it last week. I can 100% tell you. If you like that author, you will like that author.

I feel like a bookseller. Yeah. Which I was. I did work in Tosemus and I did use to book sell there. So it's nice to be, feel confident about that of like, and also having discussed it with someone for an hour, you really know what you liked about it. And you really know what you didn't like. So if someone's like, oh, well, I don't like it when a book does this. You're like, don't read that.

Yeah. It's going to do that. And Carried, I know, you know, you did work. a bookseller in WH Smith and I'll be putting that into the narration that I send you for this evening. Oh, send you off to sleep. It's important. You mentioned there having been a huge fan of reading right from a young age, being a little

girl and immersing yourself and immersing yourself in books. So that brings us nicely to your first bookshelfy book, which is a book from childhood, Moomanland Midwinter by Tovey Jansson. Muman's always sleep through the winter. All they did until the year, Moomin' troll woke up and found he couldn't go back to sleep again. All the clocks had stopped. There was nothing to eat and no one to talk to at home. So he went out straight into the first snowdrift he had ever seen. The valley wasn't green anymore. It was white and silent and very scary. But then Moomin troll spied some tracks in the snow

and decided to follow them. Maybe he wasn't the only one awake in Mooman Valley after all. Tell me about this book. When did you first read it? I've been a massive fan of the Moomin since I was a child. So my mum, is obsessed with all things Scandy. She lived in my parents lived in Denmark very briefly and her best friend is Danish and so we sort of grew up like being forced to have not being forced but like we would have Danish Christmases and go to the Danish church and read Danish books and in English obviously and so like Pibi Longstocking was a big part of my childhood and the Moomins were just

always there my mum absolutely loves the Moomins and I grew up watching the there was a Polish kind of fuzzy felt animation version of them, which you don't see much anymore, because most people will know the Japanese 1990s kind of anime version, which is very sweet. And the Polish one was really dark, really weird. And they used to show it at like lunchtime. And I remember coming home from like, I don't know, school or nursery

and watching it and being like sort of terrified and enthralled. And I think it's the first thing where I was like, this is, adults giving me this as if it's for me. But there's something else here. isn't for me like this isn't like you know and you knew that oh you could tell you could tell it was scary it was scary and people were mean and there were you know if things were bleak there's snow no one's broken up it wouldn't be like don't worry and you know I grew up in the sort of 1980s disney world we're like everything's fine everything's going to be okay and it had this edge of like

something might not be okay and I remember even as a kid being like oh I like I like that what's happening because it felt truthful it felt like yeah that is what life is like it's not perfect life doesn't you know you don't always get on with your siblings or sometimes your friends of me or sometimes you're sad and it was like this world being shown to me which was like yeah sometimes you're sad which I think is a huge part of my life even before I started working with grief and talking about grief I definitely had a sense of not everything is fine and so I loved the movements for their sheer honesty but whilst it's also wrapped up in this like love and appreciation of nature and family and being outside and appreciating the seasons

and I actually came back to this book, Moomanland Midwinter, during one of the lockdowns. So it was that really bleak, I think it might be in the second winter. And it was when we were all like, oh God, not again. And when they didn't give us an end date? They didn't give us an end date. There was no end in sight. And it was really, I just remember if London to me felt to Kenney. Like the streets were empty and it was free.

It was bitterly, bitterly cold. And it, you know, as a performer and a creative, I was like, I think my world might have gone. I think everything's gone. And I started reading this book to my daughter, who probably was not that interested because she was a bit young for it. And it soothed my soul so wholeheartedly

because what Tovey Anson does so beautifully is say, yeah, winter comes, everything is dark and quiet. And this book is bleak. It's like something happens in it where you're like, oh, I don't think that little creature will die. Oh, okay, Tov, okay. Whoa.

Oh, you killed him. Okay. Okay, then. Because you're expecting that, you know, the dignification we have of everything. You're expecting things to be okay, and that's not what she offers. And Moomin wakes up and finds out

there's this winter world that he normally hibernates through, and there's a whole world that he doesn't know. And it's quite scary to him at first, but then he realizes it's cold and it's dark, but it's just different to the same. summer and spring world. It's not worse. And I think it's such an amazing metaphor for sadness, for grief of like it's just different, but you can cope with it, you can survive it, spring is

coming, snow will melt. And I really would honestly recommend this book if ever you're feeling that kind of bleak, cold darkness. That happens when the clocks go back in this country. That happens when you go through a winter, when you winter in a country that really does get cold and dark like Scandinavia. I think you need reminding that you're not alone in these feelings. And I I just think the Moons is just, I think all the characters are real and nuanced and not perfect. I think that's what children's book should offer. I know you've described this book as bittersweet, this balance, like you say, between the dark and the light in yourself, as well as in the world around you, what's external and internal. And you find that balance between light and dark in your work, you know, exploring grief through comedy.

what is it about that balance that appeals to you? I think like, and it's interesting, as I said, like, it appealed to me even before my dad died at 15. Like, I was already aware that there was sadness. And I think I found childhood a bit frustrating that everyone kept being like, don't worry, like, don't cry, it's fine. And, you know, that's not, that doesn't tend to be how we parent children now, but definitely I grew up with this, like, just don't worry about the sadness. And then, yeah, when my dad died at 15, and I was already a bit of a goth, I became a hardcore goth. I think it just cemented for me of like there is this other side to life. There's this side which is death.

And death is not something that happens to a few people. It happens to everybody. And it's not saying that you can avoid. It doesn't matter how rich you are. It doesn't matter how hard you work. It doesn't matter how funny or popular. You, all these people in your school who look like they're having a great time will also die. I sort of could see us all dying.

I mean, I was an absolute hoot at a teenage party. I can't tell you. Everyone wanted to have to chat with me. And to me, it became this like a reality I couldn't ignore. Like, how can we pretend everything's fine and everything's sunny when there's another side to it? And again, that then later came out in my work with the grief cast and the book I wrote, You Were Not Alone, where I discussed being a part of that club and what it means to join that club early. But essentially, you know, I always joke, oh, I joined the club earlier.

I put the nibbles out and I'm waiting. But everyone will join that club. And I think life is purer and easier when you admit both sides. I just think when you see the gray nuanced land that we actually live in, things become a lot easier and easier to deal with the sadness, you know, when you balance it with like, it won't always be like this. And then when you are sad, you're not like, well, what's this? Get rid of it.

Like, I need to change everything in my life so I don't feel this feeling. you understand this feeling is a part of life. But I think that's quite hard for a lot of people. Well, understanding that a healthy brain feels all the things, there aren't negative and positive feelings. There is happiness. There is sadness. And it's actually healthy to be able to feel both,

but it's then how you navigate it when it comes. And I think we're seeing with children that masking those realities doesn't help. It just puts a plaster over. And actually, in childhood, we can accept and understand these things actually very well. Yeah. And if we could allow kids to lean into all their feelings,

it could make for a healthier adulthood. This is actually the only children's book that you've picked on this list. We've had authors like Catherine Rundle talk about the value of adults then going back and reading children's books and maybe navigating those feelings once again. Do you think more adults should return to their childhood favourites and what could they learn from them? Yeah, I think there's something to be said for remembering who you were.

I adore children's books. I've written a children's book and I think it's absolutely a very worthy genre. And as Catherine Rundle writes so beautifully can help you as an adult and a child. And I think to just remember who you were at that time, revisit that person. And as much as you would revisit a book from your 20s or your teenage years or, you know, if you're older, when you're in your 30s, a book that you loved. And we've done that with the podcast. Sarah and I have read books that we would have told you 20 years ago.

go were masterpieces and we had gone, oh, what are we thinking? Well, they give you different things at different times in your life. You evolve. And the sign of a great book is a book that continues to give you something. And that's why I chose Toby Anson and she's also written for adults. I would recommend you read anything that that woman wrote because she is a genius. But I think what she does with the Moomin books is encapsulates that philosophy in a really beautiful, bitter, sweet way, which I think is easy to take.

you know, when you are dealing with moomens and stuffkin and these magical creatures who are going through things and then you reflect on your own experiences of winter or your own experiences of depression or grief, I think it can be a very safe way to do that. But I think children's literature is, you know, again, it's like that women's literature thing, isn't it? Like we don't often say male literature.

And I think really it's books that have something to offer and a story to tell that will help you. You've written a children's book, The Christmas Wish Testure. which is out now and we can also expect more literary goodness from you because this is the first in a five book deal. Yeah, I've been busy. Your face went. Yeah. Halfway through.

Halfway through. With Hachette's children's groups. So congratulations. I mean, what have you got planned and how are you finding immersing yourself in this? I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Like I wrote you were not alone based on the podcast, The Griefcast.

I had to write that during lockdown with a newborn baby. and it was about my own grief. And it was a hard book to write. One experience. I'm very glad I did it. Very grateful that I had the opportunity, but to then be offered to write children's books, to sit down at the computer and be like,

oh, I can just write adventures rather than like, when I was 15. This is how I felt. So, yeah, I'm loving it. And the Christmas wish chastrophe combines a lot of my love. So it's set in Regency Times, Jane Austen Times. It's about a little girl called Lydia Marmalade,

who her mother dies and she got to put grief in there guys can't help it she gets sent off to this big house pepombole she takes her best friend who is a sausage dog called Colin who likes jumping in lakes and she makes a wish one night that she wishes her mother was still with her and passing at that point is a winter fire sprite who decides to grant the wish and says yeah sure where is she i'll bring her back and then we have to explain we can't bring her back and then the fire sprite can't leave to the wishes granted. And within this, Lydia is also having to behave like a good lady,

otherwise she'll be sent to the workhouse. So it combined all my loves of Jane Austen and writing about things that are very emotional and big emotions that I think children can handle if you package them in a really safe and also using comedy to make that easier. So it was a joy to write the Christmas Witchastrophe. It was just fun. And then being able to write magic, like being able to have sports, that can cast spells and, you know, going into the woods to find certain berries that will make a spell that will mean that you can get somewhere where you need to go.

It's like, oh, so fun. We don't get to talk about sprites enough. No, we don't get to about sprites, yeah. And Belle is, she's my favorite character, Belamina Wanderlanders Frosty Leaf. And she is a cross between like a market trader and Captain Haddock from the Tintin book. So she like is outrageously. arrogant and difficult and mischievous does exactly what she wants, constantly annoyed that she can't go home to her best friend Stanley who's a squirrel.

She's got a party coming. She bought Keish's. She doesn't know when she's going to get back. Keisha's going to go off. And she was just so much fun to write character that's magic and also doesn't really want to be there. It sounds like such a joyous writing process. On the subject of love, the things you love and love in general. Your second book, Shelfy book, is by.

By Grand Central Station, I sat down and wept by Elizabeth Smart. One day, while browsing in a London bookshop, Elizabeth Smart chanced upon a slim volume of poetry by George Barker and fell passionately in love with him through the printed words. Eventually, they communicated directly and thus began one of the most extraordinary, intense and ultimately tragic love affairs of our time. They never married, but Elizabeth bore George Barker four children and their relationship provided the impassioned inspiration

for one of the most moving and immediate chronicles of a love affair ever written. Tell us a little bit more about this book. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, this is one I read at university, and I haven't reread until I was asked for this podcast to choose like the ones that you'd want there. So I don't know if it stands up to my reading, to my late reading, but I loved this book when I was at university. it spoke to every part of my deep romantic soul. And I think it's also a book that a lot of people haven't heard of,

even though it's sort of known as a kind of feminist classic. But I feel like it's sort of got lost along the way. She wrote it in 1945. And yeah, it's also one of those books that I think if she was alive now, Elizabeth Smart would be on TikTok. She'd be substacking. Like we'd be living this relationship with her. So she finds this book of poetry.

in a shop, she's Canadian, but she's in London. She decides I'm going to meet this man. She lies to get him a married man over to California. They see each other fall in love instantly. He's there with his wife. He then goes on to have 15 children by different women. So, you know, they have this incredibly passionate affair. She writes this book, you know, she goes back to Canada when she's pregnant.

Her family stop her from seeing him. then she like escapes like during the war like sails across to see him like everything about this is like girl what are you doing yeah like what's happening like her son has written about their relationship and said like it didn't really make sense until you saw them together like they hated and loved each other in equal fashion um her mother tried to buy every single copy of this book and like destroy it because she was so embarrassed that she had written this like torrid she got fired from the ministry of defense after it came out. Like, there's so much in this story that I feel like, why don't people all know this? Why isn't Elizabeth Smart like held up more as like, you know, one of these figures?

I think it was Angela Carter described it as like Madam Bovry struck by lightning. And yeah, it's good. It's a good quote for the front. And good quote. Thanks, Ange. And it's written in poetic prose. It's a very, we have this thing on the Weirdo's Book Club, but I like a thin book. I like a light book. It's easier in the bag, isn't it? Thank you. It's easier on the shoulder. Thank you. Sarah Laugh. at me all the time and says like I'm being ridiculous a book is a book but I'm currently carrying an absolute brick around as someone with three slip discs I appreciate yeah I like it when you pick up a book and it's in your bag and you're like oh I didn't even know it was there yeah lovely

lovely surprise and so on the weirdos book club I offer and say to just so everyone knows this is a light one this is not going to hurt your shoulder and by grand central station I sat down wept is very light and it's all written in this kind of poetic prose and it's deep deeply over the top and emotional in a way that only someone in young love can write. It makes your heart sing and dance and sometimes you want to feel that. It makes your heart sing. And I remember reading at university after a breakup and just feeling like, yes, yes, somebody understands what this devastation feels like. And I think if you're of a romantic nature or have ever been in a relationship where you felt, you know, only poetry could describe what was happening to you.

You will enjoy this book. What's really interesting, a friend of mine at uni knew I was obsessed with it, so he tracked down the male version, which is George Barker's version called The Dead Seagull, I think, which is also based on their relationship. And it's one of the most awful depressing books I've ever read. I was like, oh, like his side of things. I was like, ooh, this is so, there was no emotion. There was no, like, heartness to it. So I would recommend reading her version of this love affair because I think it's, yeah, especially, you know, if you are, Yeah, of a female persuasion and you have ever been in love. His would be the TikTok side-by-side response. Yes, yes.

And you would be like, really? POV. George Barker reading by Grand Central Station. If only there was TikTok for those days, I would be relevant. But not anymore. Yeah, she's an extraordinary writer and she was an extraordinary woman. And he said they broke up and got back together so many times. She had four children with him.

They continued to work together. They continue to support each other's writing. And it really was a love affair of words rather than actual personalities. I think they probably would have been better off emailing each other. And they had a torrid email affair. But that wasn't the world they lived in. So yeah. You were studying English literature at Sussex.

At the time of reading this. This was not part of your syllabus, was it? No, no. I found it in a bookshop. And the title caught me. I was like, oh, what are weird type? Like, what is that? because it's referencing that Bible quote.

But also it was obviously New York, and I've just thought, what is this book? I've never heard of it. Sometimes when you're studying, particularly, you know, everyone I know studied English literature or languages and they've done literature, they have a bit of a love-hate relationship with books

because there's so much pressure on reading it. And then every yourself, when you find a book outside of that like this, that just makes you fall back in love with it. And that romance genre as well, that like you say, makes your heart sing because you were going through something that resonated at the time is so special to have a book really grab you. Yeah, I mean, I really stopped reading after my English degree.

I hated it. Exactly the same. I was like, no thanks. And this absolutely wasn't like I studied completely different historical periods. So this was like a 20th century book was like, wow. Oh, modern writing. Nice little change. Yeah, they're getting on a boat, a train.

Okay. So, yeah, it's very nice. to find something that you can just disappear in. And I should caveat, it's not, it's not necessarily a rom-com. It's not necessarily like things do not work out. If you, if you know I like the Moomin's and you know like bittersweet, go into this book prepared that it's not like a perfect happy ending. That's not what she's offering.

But she is offering and understanding what it feels like to be torn apart by how you feel about someone. You lean into romance with your hit improv play, ostentatious, which is an improvised Jane Austen novel. Now, the format is quite unique. each show is based on a made-up title from an audience member. How does this work? Tell us a little bit about it. What prompted you to mel the literary and the theatrical together? Yeah, it was so, I've been doing improv for over 20 years,

and it was about 14 years ago we started Ostentatious. And myself and five other improvisers sort of knew each other. And Rachel Paris, the comedian and another comedian, Amy Cook Hodgson, musical theatre performer as well, they sort of came to a few of us. We're like, oh, what about doing Jane Austen? Like, should we try and do Jane Austen? Because basically, we all liked Jane Austen.

And we also were all obsessed with the 1995 BBC Pride and Prejudice Adoptation. Who wasn't? Who wasn't? And we wanted to be in it. And we weren't getting cast in it. So we were like, well, let's just pretend we're in it. And so we started doing it, I said, above a pub to 12 people 14 years ago. And those 12 people turned up.

And then they came the next week and the next week. And we had to move to a bigger pub. and then we had to move to a bigger pub. And then we went to Edinburgh and they were cooing around the corner. And then we went to a bigger venue. And now we're in the West End every Monday. And it just grew and grew and grew completely naively. Like none of us, we just thought, this is fun.

And what we didn't realize is we're not the only people obsessed with Jane Austen. Quite a lot of people obsessed with Jane Austen. So we're in full Regency gear. So we're dressed as Lizzie Bennett. They look like the boys that like Mr. Darcy. So good. We have a violinist or pianist that improvises with us. And then we come out.

The show starts an academic. called Dr Sam Patton comes out who explains to you. They have discovered, we take it in turn to do this. Jane Austen didn't write six works. She actually wrote 987. And they've been turning up all over the place. And we get title, so we say, shout out your favorite, lost Jane Austen. And then we pick a random title, and that's the title of the show.

And that's all we get from the audience. So we don't ever go back to them for any other suggestions. And so we've had things like Strictly Cam Darcy, the Empire Line Strikes Back, Jurassic Mansfield Park, Man Spanning Park, It's another one, Northanger Cabby. And then you sometimes get things like, what did we have this week? Like, oh, affliction and affection or something. Like, you know, nothing particularly genred.

Everything Emma wears always at once. That was a good one recently. Some are stupid puns. Some are just random titles. And then we improvise the show for two halves, 40 minutes each. And that's it. And yeah, it's normally romantic because it's Jane Austen. I'm coming.

Yeah, go on. I'm going to pitch Austin Powers. Oh, yeah, we have had Austin Powers. Of course it's been done. We've been done. But it's a good one. Dirty Darcy, that was another fave. I had to hold back all my dirty dancing references.

I was getting like, nobody puts Jane in the corner. Yeah, Austin Powers. I haven't had it for a while, though. You never know. We're getting to the point. We used to never take repeat titles. And then someone pointed out, we did that title 14 years ago. No one can remember what it was probably fine to repeat that title.

Bayleys is proudly supporting. the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. Now, I'm feeling very autuminal at the moment, and we're wrapped up in a jumper, and as the night's draw in here in London, I'm really loving just spending. my evenings curled up on my sofa with a good book. Of course I am. However, I have noticed it's

getting darker earlier and the lights are on as well as the heating. This is where my new lamp comes in. I've been trying out the new serious reader's high definition light. Now, what makes this lamp stand out, you may ask? Well, this lamp has a special built-in feature called daylight wavelength technology that essentially replicates normal daylight indoors. This means that the words appear more clearly on the page in front of me. There's more contrast on the page from the HD light, so my eyes are less tired and I can read for longer. And the great news is that Serious readers are offering bookshelfy listeners £100 off any HD light and free UK delivery, so you can too. All you've got to do is visit seriousreaders.com forward slash bookshelfy and use the code

shelphy. That's S-H-E-L-F-I-E to secure yours today. There's a 30-day risk-free trial to return the lamp for free if you're unhappy with it for whatever reason and i'll be very surprised if you are you can return it without any hassle you'll find the details of the offer in the episode notes in case you missed them so come on protect those eyes and join me in some serious cozy reading this autumn on to another masterclass in character building your third book today is half the yellow sun by chimamanda and gauzi aditye in 1960s nigeria three lives intersects Ugu, works as a houseboy for a university professor. Alana has abandoned her life of privilege in Lagos to live with her charismatic lover, the lecturer,

and Richard, a shy Englishman, is enthralled to Alana's enigmatic twin sister. Amongst the horror of Nigeria's civil war, loyalties are tested as they're pulled apart and thrown together in ways none of them imagined. Winner of the 2007 Women's Prize for Fiction to Amanda Ngozi Adich's masterpiece is a novel about race, class and the end of colonialism and the ways in which love can complicate everything. This is my favourite book of all time. This book is a women's prize favourite. It was voted the winner of winners by over 10,000 readers in 2020.

Tell us why it's important to you. I'm a huge Jim Amanda fan. I've read nearly all of her stuff. I've very excited to have a new one coming out. I couldn't believe that was happening. Oh my goodness. I think I read Americana first and then I read Purple Hibiscus

and then Harfielis son was like oh yeah, yeah, should read that, shouldn't I? But, you know, and I loved both of those books like couldn't believe this person could write like this. It was like, wow. And again, not discovering her too much later and being like, why didn't I know about this person?

And so Harfayle some, when I came to it, I sort of thought, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, she's a great writer. and I think this book, I think the intersection of great writing with political history, which is a very traditionally male dominated area. She does it. I don't have the words for what she does in this book. Like it's so sublime.

It's so genius that I am angry this book isn't on syllabuses. I feel like, for starters, I didn't know there was a biafran war. Had never heard of it, had no, you know, no reference for it. Obviously, I am white. don't have any connection to Nigeria. But equally, I'm someone who studied history up till quite a high point at school. I'm obsessed with history. And, you know, I've watched lots of documentaries about history.

Listen to podcasts. And I was like, huh? Record scratch. What? What's she talking about? And had to be like, hang on a minute. This is real. This happened.

And I had never heard of this. And, you know, obviously, that's my bad. The one of the things that was great about Sussex University, which means they're always, talk about is they don't when we were there you didn't read text you didn't read a book you read around and we were talking about decolonizing the canon in year 2000 that's what our classes were about were the colonial history that we inherited and so I remember writing a dissertation about the film industry and how the British film industry has not dealt with empire and that's one of the biggest problems that we have in this country is this lack of understanding of empire

Like if we were taught it from year seven, from primary school, if we were taught that there was an empire, it was one of the biggest empires in history, it was bigger than the Roman Empire, which we all know about. And if we understood it, I think a lot of problems would be not solved but helped. You know, I'm not naive enough to be like,

and then Brexit wouldn't happen. But I think there's just this lack of information. And as somebody who, you know, grew up liberal thinking household, and was interested in history and still didn't know about this. I felt embarrassed, I felt shamed, I felt shocked. And then I was like, this book, like, this should just be on a GCCC syllable. There isn't a book that is doing the work. Like, she's done so, she's done the work for you.

You could hand this to a British person and get them to understand, like Britain's involvement in countries. Why were they involved after 1960, after Nigeria become an independent state? But she does that thing that fiction writers do. She's doing it with characters and a narrative. So she's not lecturing you. It's not a history. You don't have to sit there and write your dates down

and understand, you know, when Nigeria, you know, all the countries that became independent or how big our empire was in Africa. You don't have to know that. She's giving you real people. And this book just, like, tore me inside out. Like, I was just crying. And then I was like, you're hoping for people

you don't want to hope for. And she exposes the, like, how complicated situations are and how it's not about who's right or wrong, it's just about understanding what's got what's happened and I think so many of us don't understand. I'm also a huge fan of satlam Sangara's work with empire land and empire world. Again I think people who make this stuff, not palatable but easy to understand because it I appreciate if you don't know enough about it, if your school has schooling has let you down. It does seem like a huge empire seems like this huge huge topic and like and it covers bloody everywhere like there's not a bit of country in the world

where you're not like oh guess what we were there too so it can be overwhelming to think well i just oh well we were but we're not anymore forget about it but you have to understand how much yeah ripples everything has and i think this book just just breaks down consequences in a really non-judgmental way you know she's never saying this is bad this good she's just like but this happened and you should know that happened listen it was an education for me well and I'm Nigerian. So my mom grew up during the Biafran Nigerian Civil War. She was running from air raids. They were housing soldiers. They were starving and fed by the British Red Cross. But she was a child. So when she came to this country, when she was 11 years

old, she didn't understand what had happened sociopolitically. She didn't understand the landscape, the climate. And we arrived and she tried to tell us stories, but we never understood exactly why, what happened, happened. And when I read this book, it plugged the gaps. It was an education for me in my own background, in my own culture, in my own history. And for that, I am eternally grateful to Chimamand and Gossi Dice. And my mum is too. And it's because of those characters, their perspectives, those shifting perspectives that we get throughout the book.

And the different backgrounds of the different characters. And I always say it's a history lesson. It's also philosophy without philosophising. And the same way Americana is, the little trends I've taken from that that have held with me for my life. it's genius and it's come to both of us for different reasons at different times when we needed it when we needed to know that you said this is actually one of the books that you got back into reading with after early motherhood yeah and what a time that is as well yeah I was struggling to read and you do after you had a baby it's like everything seems like I don't have time and you can't

get into anything and I remember this is one of those books that I was like oh I don't care I don't how late I'm going to bed. I don't care. Like I have to know what happens to them. Are they okay? What's going on? Like, just worrying about them. Like, you know, you close a book. I don't know. I don't think she should do that. I think she needs to call that person.

This has been a, you know, a key moment in your relationship with reading. Yeah. And solace in this at a really important transformational time. Tell me about the relationship you've had with reading as you've got older. Yeah, I think it, I think motherhood interrupt. reading quite loudly and I think if you are someone who grew up reading, liked reading, it's your go-to for solace and joy. It can be hard. You have this period where you can't read and I think what I've learned now my kids are a little bit older is like you do, you will come

back to it but those early years you think this is it. I've lost it almost like I don't know if you're someone that likes running or likes going to play snooker with your friends and you're like oh I'll never do that again I'll never get it and it's like no no you will but early motherhood you know, you're destroyed inside and out. No worries if you're pregnant, guys, you'll be okay. But it reformed you. I've just read Matriessence by Lucy Jones, and that again, can't recommend that book enough

if you are about to become a parent because she really does show your brain literally changes during pregnancy. They can do brain scans of women six years after they had birth, and they can know if a woman has had a child or not by looking at her brain. That's how big and fundamental the changes are. And it's not positive or negative.

It's just there are changes. And so, yeah, I think having books, having writers like Jim Amanda, who can write in a way where you can't walk away for them, you can't put it down, you can't go, I'm too tired, or it's the middle of the night, or I don't get, I just need to go on my phone and forget about things. You know, I just feel grateful that a woman like that exists in our world, that she doesn't take her time to do other things. She bothers to sit down a page. I was like, thank you, Jimemanda, thank you, because, yeah, I just feel, I feel like everyone should read her staff. Any of her books, I would be like, just start anywhere. I don't think there's a wrong one or right one to start, but I think half a yellow sun is just, yeah, yeah, a work of pure unadulterated genius. It really is.

Like, it's, I think it should be on syllabus. I don't understand when you look at some of the stuff that does make it to kids and understanding. It's like, this is, this is got everything you could possibly want. in a book like you said it's philosophy it's characters it's plot it's narrative it's political it's historical it's talking about gender and women and how they're placing more like what more do you want from a book and it is a book that makes you think what's the point of writing another one because you're like she's done here but here she comes with another one I know I'm excited I'm excited carry out your fourth book today is wolf hall by Hillary Mantle from one of our

finest writers willful is a truly great English novel one that explores the intersection of individual psychology and wider politics. With a vast array of characters centered around Thomas Cromwell as a political mastermind and richly overflowing with incident, it peels back history to show us Tudor England as a half-made society moulding itself with great passion and suffering and courage. Why did this book have such a lasting impact on you? I'm a huge Hillary Mantell fan. I had read Beyond Black, I think was my first one, which we read, and actually it's a tiny bit dated,

just like, there's a few things that some characters say that both me and Sarah were like, God, you just would never say that anymore. It's quite xenophobic. But she's a brilliant writer, and I'd read her short stories, and yeah, I liked her. And so when Wolf Hall came out,

I was, you know, and obviously, it started getting reviews, and I'm a history nerd. So I was like, oh, and I love me some English history. So I remember sort of picking it up not expecting loads but you know oh yeah i'm interested about him with the eighth i'm interested in that sort of you know i like i like gritty english history i like it when like they didn't have mod you know everything's a bit rough and ready and that kind of shakespearean time i've also yeah

love that period of history so i started reading it and i was just i've never felt like hilly mantel makes you feel like they're going to notice you yeah like i would read this book and be like I've got to be quiet in case Thomas Cromwell sees me because I'm hearing a conversation I should not be hearing and you feel like you're genuinely eavesdropping on these people

and I also constantly felt like I had to constantly remind myself that it was fiction because I was like I can't believe that's what they said I can't believe that's what Henry did and I'd be like hang on Carrier that's Hillary imagining but she makes characters so real yeah and I

so Woolfaw I just ate up loved every single minute of it and then bring up the bodies. I remember I was filming a TV job and, you know, like it's acceptable for actors to read books in their trailers, but normally once you're on set, you might not read as much because you're talking to people. I couldn't, I couldn't talk to people. I just had bring up the bodies like in my face. And if anyone's trying to talk to me, I'd be like, I'd have this moment where I'd be like, why are you, why am I not in Tudor England? Like, they would be like, oh,

you need it on set. And I was dressed as like, you know, something mad, this comedy show. And I'd be like, oh, Henry's not. Tom, okay. I would be like, sorry guys, I'm not with you. Like, I disappeared. A mirror in the light. Again, I have this joke with Sarah. I had to buy on Kindle because it was too heavy. It was too heavy for my wrist.

So I did it on Kindle. But the whole series, and to go with a write on that journey to like be looking. I feel like I do like music, but I've never been that invest, so invested that I've like followed a band round. And that's what it felt like to me. It was like, like, waiting for a new album to drop. It's like, she's going to drop this book. And we're all going to read it. I'm going to be able to find out what she thinks next.

And, yeah, mirror in the light, I felt like I'd been on a marathon with Hillary. I love this image of you in a trailer dressed as something wacky. And a runner comes in and is like, Carrie out, just knock on the door. Carrier, five minutes to set and you're like, shh, how do you are you? We had a date. This will date where it was or people, not there. There were a lot of dogs on set. And they're like, someone run and knocked on the door.

It was like, the dogs are ready. We need to go now. And I was like, the dogs. The dogs. The dog, Thomas, what? Ambelin's dog? And I had to go on set and do this stupid thing with these dogs and my whole head was just again worrying.

How's Ambelin going to get out of this? What's she up to? Do we trust her? I don't trust her. Is Thomas going to be a gay? But he's not a good man. Why do I care so much about Thomas Cromwell? And then also being able to go to things like the National Portrait Gallery now and they had a recently had an exhibition of Henry's wives

but they had like portraits of Thomas and you can go and see and I just I know you. Yeah, I love that being able to, like, you feel like Hillary gives you a passport to that time period that I think sometimes you can feel like, oh, I don't know enough, or I don't really understand, or I don't know, maybe didn't study it in detail. And Hillary's giving you that permission of like, no, you're allowed to go and see those portraits of Holbein. And that's your world as much as anyone's world.

Yeah. Hilary's notoriously talked about her characters as if they were alive. Yeah. And, you know, she melds facts and fiction. You know, it's historical fiction. Your book, You Were Not Alone, it also combines factual elements like the psychology and the science behind loss, as well as your personal experiences. Can you tell us a little bit about your research for this book? Because having that work alongside something so personal and you can't verify or deny what's happened to someone inside of themselves.

But, you know, you're learning all this stuff along the way as well. Yeah, and that's, I felt very, when I first started writing you were not alone, I was, I had a conflict because I thought, oh, you know, I'm not a mental health professional. I'm a comedian. Like, what has happened? And I never intended to write a kind of self-help mental health book about grief when I began recording the grief class. So, you know, a bit like with ostentatious, this thing happened. I was never, I never in my career or my life, I never go. out with set intentions. I sort of just bumble along and things happen. But I did interview over

200 people for seven years and that sort of became the backbone of research for the book. And I started out interviewing my friends, comedians and then I moved to sort of producers or writers and I would start interviewing palliative care doctors or deaf dealers and I started, ended up being asked to be on panels with, you know, mental health professionals or, you know, like people like the amazing Chris Hulengar who recently passed away from Copperfield and, you know, you. You know, just these people who were, like, working in the field of death. And I became part of the death industry, which, you know, not something I ever thought would happen. And, you know, you realise when you start getting into that world of, like, they're just people.

They're the same as you. They just happen to be looking at the subject. We're all afraid very closely. And the people I've actually got on the best with as palliative care nurses. Like, I found we had a, like, I understood the sense of humour, having been essentially a grief counsellor for seven years. that this is the world we're living in. This is the world where people die in this world. They don't get better. They don't survive.

I'm also notorious for anybody telling me, oh, so-and-so's in remission. Really? Remission? They didn't die. Like, I'm always expecting a death. Oh, well, that's good. Because I just think my lived experience is people dying.

That's when people tell me their stories, obviously. So I'm very happy when they're in remission. I'm just always a bit surprised. And so, yeah, when I sat down to write it, I had this, like, my brain was full to the, brim of knowledge about what grief academics thought and because I'd interviewed so many people I knew that mostly what the public thought was different and so the intention with that book was to be like however you're grieving is right yeah there is no right way to do this all these people all

these professionals and these academics who've studied it studied the past 50 years of what we've said they all think however you're doing it is is right the five stages of grief is not very helpful even though it was helpful at one point it now we now feel it can be harmful to grievers and whichever way you're coping you're doing the best you can and just to be able to write that in a book and get that out to a general public who maybe don't listen to podcasts to be like this is all everyone's saying they're saying the same thing and I think I got I got so overwhelmed by people coming up to me and saying hush tones I know I'm not doing it right um this is how I've ended up grieving.

I know that's not the right way. And they would come up to me, you know, on comedy jobs, on panel show jobs, walking down the street in the playground with my kids. Oh, I've listened to Grief Club. And I was suddenly able to say, no, no, no, no, no, you're all saying, everyone's saying this. Everyone's saying they're doing, like, they think they're doing it wrong. So we can't all be doing it wrong because we're all saying this. So, yeah, I think that ability to marry some fact with some lived experience,

it's a very strong place to be able to write a book, which, you know, like I said, it wasn't easy to write because it was so personal. But to be able to say to people, yeah, he died at 15 and I'm all right. I'm still grieving. It will always be a part of me. I will never be able to be someone whose dad didn't die at 15. I'll always be a bit sad. It's a bit sad that that happened.

But I'm also okay. And two truths can exist at the same time. Carriad, it's time to talk about your fifth and final book, Shelfy book, which is The Bay of Noon by Shirley Hazard. The scene is Naples, against whose ancient and fantastic background, the modern action takes place. Among the protagonists is Jenny, young and pretty, who has come to Naples in flight from a somber drama, unaware that a larger drama waits her there. She has an introduction to a Neapolitan woman, and one day she idly follows it up. This is her leap through the looking glass.

What was it about the writing here that appealed to you? Shirley Hazard is yeah one of those a bit like I've said on the other books I hadn't heard of her I'd never heard of her and I can't even tell you

how I came across her I think I picked it up in a bookshop I think it caught my eye or the cover caught my eye and I think I'd heard Bay of Noon mentioned I feel like somebody had said it to me and I started reading it

and this was after Hillary Mantel had sadly passed away and I started reading it and it was the first thing I thought oh this reminds me a bit of Hillary Mantel like she for me the level of writing is as good as mantells it's different because um you know she's writing at a different time but it has it has that thing about it that Hillary does of where the characters are real they are so real um and and the level of detail she has which I think

Hillary does as well like it takes you a bit of time to drop into Hillary world but once you're in there you're in there and that's yeah Shirley does the same thing that you're like first a couple of pages, you're like, oh, this is long and it's very detailed. What's happening? They're still on a beach. They've been on the beach for any pages. Like, where are they going to get off the beach? But then suddenly something clicks and you're like, I can never leave this place.

So I found out the reason, one of the reasons I chose it was like, yeah, I think she's an extraordinary writer who a lot of people hadn't heard of even though, even though both of her books did one, the big Bay of Noon and I think Transit of Venus did win prizes and were very big at the time, but she seems to have sort of slipped away. and she's another one a bit like Elizabeth Smart that this is based on a lot of her real life so she did work for the UN and she did go, was working in Naples at that time during the war and she came from this very rich background and had this unusual affair with people

and so you're reading stuff that obviously is true because it's just too real and I think she's, I like books you know, as a break from like grand historical fiction it's nice to have a book that is about very small things so really like it's, you know, this synopsis you just read, like it doesn't tell you very much. She's kind of working in Naples.

She meets this Italian woman. She kind of has an affair with this man. And then, like, it reminds me of, um, caffeine, you know, and you're slightly like, if I describe what it's about this, it doesn't sound very thrilling. They're on the beach. You're on the beach. So she gets a flat in Naples.

He has a flat. But it's the way she tells that story. And I think that's really nice sometimes our books that are about small things and really, really, really. observant books that aren't asking you to follow a grand plot or what happens next, how they're going to get out of this, this is epic, this is epic, but to have someone who's only looking at like, you know, eye movements and finger movements and how someone's breathing in a room. And I think that can be a really nice place to spend with the writer. Yeah, I feel like I remember the first time

I read Sally Rooney and there was such attention to detail on how one of the characters was stirring her tea. And it made me then really pay attention. to how I stirred my tea. And in novels like this where, you know, Naples is a character. There's this lush and vivid description. You're really drawn to those details. And then it kind of makes you more mindful. I go about my life more mindful of little things

when I'm reading about little things. You mentioned that Shirley Hazard is often overlooked when it comes to great female writers, which is obviously the whole charitable purpose of the Women's Prize Trust. Can you tell us about your experience as a comedian in what we know to be a very male-dominated industry? Yeah, I mean, I think I've done a very naughty thing and I have really sidestepped because I never did stand-up. So my very good friend, Sarah Pascoe, does stand up, was in stand-up when it really was, you know, it was like her, machine continuity, Kath and Ryan.

Like at one point There were just not women And so when she started doing comedy Whereas I began in character comedy And character comedy is the world of Catherine Tate, it's the world of Victoria Wood, It's the world of Julie Walters And it's almost like it's the room of comedy

That women are allowed in So I never felt Unwelcome There was a lot of women doing character comedy It was like, oh you're allowed to put on a silly wig And do an accent, that's allowed You're not allowed to stand up there And just talk about your life

like that's this crossover. I had it with improvisation, so I said I've been improvising for 20 years and over 20 years. And when I started, there was like myself, Pippa Evans, Ruth Bratt. And we would often get jobs because literally they were like,

Pipa's busy, so can you do it? Because there's no women. And Pippa would be like, oh, I got a job because you weren't around. And so at the beginning, they just were not women being so boldest to get up. And myself, Pippa and Ruth also have worked

subsequently with the incredible Josie Lawrence who is our absolute hero who still improvises at the comedy store every Sunday with the comedy store players and she was someone who's an absolute trailblazer for us so to stand on stage next to Josie still feels like can't believe I'm here

I believe I'm here when I moved from being character sketch performer doing sketch comedy which is you know it's acting no one is bothered if you're a man or a woman in that situation they just need you know receptionist to do this play that role but when I cite getting booked as

Carriead as herself on a panel show, I definitely became more aware of the difficulties you face as a woman in that situation. Looking at all the different mediums that you've explored, that you've taken up space in from TV to podcast to writing, comedy. What keeps it fresh and exciting? What's been your favourite medium to work in or is it nice to have them all concurrently on the go? Yeah, I'm somebody who gets bored really easily. So that is why I do all these things. Yeah, like I, if I was just writing, I think I would not be particularly mentally okay. If I was just improvising, I'd be quite poor.

So I think, like, I do all these different things to keep my brain as happy as possible. So, like, I love writing, but then I love, you know, spending all day with myself, living in my head. And then in that evening, going to do a gig with a bunch of improvisers, bouncing off other people, talking about other ideas, going to do a podcast and then reading a book I never would have picked up. It's like it all feeds into the other world and I think that's for my brain is really important. And all the more for me to put into my recording for you. Yes. Oh my nighttime app. Yes. Thank you. Vic Hope. Read your CV. And gladly. Carriad. Just one final question. If you had to pick one book from your bookshelfy list that you brought today as a favorite, which would

it be and why and they were they were really different yeah i don't i would depend what's happening to me like i was being left on a desert island i would probably like probably keep woolful because it's like a good you know but if it was like one book to reread forever then like half a yellow sun but if you're locking me in a winter eternal winter i need mooman land midwinter so i feel like i'm not going to lock you in an eternal winter okay okay yeah i think i think maybe warful series because that's three books i've actually accidentally snuck in there i've actually never questioned exactly what I am doing with my guests when I tell them to pick one book. What's the context?

Where are you going to me? Yeah, yeah. Why do I only have one book? Am I being chased? Is their food? It's important in this life to question everything. Yeah. You've been absolutely amazing.

I have loved talking to you. Oh, thank you. I've loved it. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening.

and I'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.