Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S7 Ep25: Bookshelfie: Kavita Puri

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Award-winning executive producer and broadcaster Kavita Puri on the importance of collecting untold stories, being an Elizabeth Strout groupie and why women always have been and continue to be complex characters. Kavita Puri is the creator, writer and presenter of the Three Million podcast on BBC Sounds, which won the Gold for Best New Podcast at the British Podcast Awards 2024, and the accompanying book - a "groundbreaking" investigation of the 1943 Bengal famine - is set to publish in 2026. Her Radio 4 docu-series Three Pounds in My Pocket is currently on its fifth season and has been described as “captivating and epic” by The Guardian. Kavita is also the author of the critically acclaimed book “Partition Voices: Untold British Stories”, which has been adapted for stage at the Donmar Warehouse.  Kavita is the chair of the 2025 Women’s Prize for Non-Fiction Judging panel. Kavita’s book choices are: ** The Island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak ** Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout  ** Fugitive Pieces by Anne Michaels ** A Woman in Berlin by Marta Hillers ** The Other Side of Silence by Urvashi Butalia Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season seven of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season seven? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Serious Readers are offering Bookshelfie listeners £100 off any HD light and free UK delivery. To take advantage of our Serious Readers discount code, please visit seriousreaders.com/bookshelfie and use the code SHELFIE.  There’s a 30 day risk-free trial to return the lamp for free if you’re unhappy with it for whatever reason. 

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. I think I've always been really interested in hidden stories, untold stories, whether it's, you know, starvation in Yemen, or the killing of an Afghan woman, what that told us about Afghanistan. I didn't expect to be writing history. I thought I'd be a journalist all my life.

But again, it's just, it's untold stories. If we don't tell our stories and our history, is erased. If it's not on programmes or in the history books, then we're not telling the story of who we are. And so I didn't expect that. I didn't think that that's what I would be doing now. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for season seven of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about

the books you'll be adding to your 2024 reading list. Today I am joined by Kavita Puri. Kavita is an award-winning executive producer and broadcaster. She's the creator, writer and presenter of the three million podcast on BBC Sounds, which won the gold for best new podcast at the British Podcast Awards 2024. And the accompanying book, a groundbreaking investigation of the 1943 Bengal famine, is set to publish in 26. Her radio 4 docu-series, 3 pounds at my pocket, is currently on its fifth season and has been described as captivating and epic by The Guardian. Kavita's also the author of the critically acclaimed book, Partition Voices, Untold British Stories, which has been adapted for stage at the Donmont Warehouse. And finally, Kavita is the

of the 2025 Women's Prize for Nonfiction Judging Panel. It is such a pleasure to have you here to see you, to be able to discuss your favourite books. And the books that you look back on and revisit certain times of your life, we've just been discussing how much of a joy it was to find your notes in the margins of your favourite books. I have to say, being asked your five favourite books

is kind of, I hate being asked that. It's like being asked, which is your favorite child? And so I chose them in haste and I went back to them. And when I read, I often scribble all over my books, phrases that resonate or maybe it might be something about structure. And I went back and I found them and I remembered why I love those books and why those books meant something to me then and I think I'm going to go back and reread all of them because

they'll probably mean something differently to me now. Yeah, I love that it's reignited something. It's so special to find a book that speaks to you at a certain time to the point where you're like, I need to note this down, I need to write it down, I need to remember this, I need to wear it around my neck like pearls. And then you'll come back to it and it might mean something different because your life has changed, your experiences that changed. You're a different person. Totally. But what an experience to work that out. That's the journey.

And such exciting news as well to be able to say in your bio that you've recently been announced as the chair of the Women's Prize for Nonfiction, 2025 judging panel. I absolutely loved my judging experience in 2021. How have you been finding it? Well, I'm at the beginning of the judging experience. So the boxes have come and I've unpacked them. Those boxes? Those boxes.

You remember. All big boxes. And then you kind of go, oh my gosh. This is a big thing. huge undertaking. It's a massive responsibility. But also, I have to carve out the time to do this properly and to read each book carefully. And so I have a pile now.

It's kind of like the leaning tower of peas. Like books I've read and books I have to read. And actually, right now, it's kind of half and half. But my scribbling is all over the books as well. And I don't know about you, but I scribble, but I also turn pages over. And the page turn a downer. And sometimes if it's on the same page and I have to return the page on both sides. Because there's two bits, yeah.

There's two bits. Yeah, I looked like a madwoman during my time. There was just post-its all over my apartment because I didn't have one shelf big enough. I lived in a tiny little flat in Hackney. I didn't have one shelf big enough for all these books. So I was trying to organise them like you into piles of red, piles of yes, piles of possibly, piles of no. and then post-its for my thoughts and feelings as well as the pages turned down. Because the thing is, when we come to discuss them, it might be months later.

Exactly. And so you can't bring every book with every scribble in. But it's been an incredible experience. Reading other writers, writers I probably wouldn't have read before. Stretching my mind, seeing how other people write, especially as I. I'm about to embark on another book and seeing what works or thinking, ah, that's interesting what they've done with structure. And so from a personal point of view, it's been hugely nourishing.

I think it's going to be really difficult. And we have a WhatsApp group probably like you do. And we don't say which books we love. But it's, I can tell, it's going to be really, really tricky to choose a long list and then that short list. Especially when they're all so different. I mean, it's a very broad category, nonfiction, just in general. What are you looking for, do you think?

I think to that point, we're looking for range. Women write about everything. And so we want to see that range in genre. We, there are some more established writers, but there are some new writers, some emerging writers. And it's showcasing some of them as well. But it's also about the research and the quality of that original research. And also what those books tell us about the time that we're living in now.

And I think there are a lot of the books that we're reading for very different reasons. Of course they touch upon that. And I think that's a really important element. But I think that with nonfiction, for me, the quality of the writing is really important. I think that's a given with fiction. I think it's not always the case that it's given with nonfiction. And I think excellence in writing is really important. And I think that and actually also storytelling.

And I think that that does elevate a book hugely. And so all of these different things, I think that we're looking at. It's so true actually. One of the standouts on the nonfiction list for me last year was actually How to Say Babylon by Safia Sinclair, and it was poetry. Like it was written like poetry, because she's, of course, a poet, but this was a memoir.

I learned so much about Rastafarianism that I didn't know at all. It was crazy that I thought I understood and didn't, but for it to be so lilting and melodic, at the same time was a gorgeous writing experience. I keep recommending it to people. Do you gravitate more towards nonfiction or fiction as a reader, reader for pleasure?

I probably gravitate more towards nonfiction, just because the nature of the work that I do and in my working life I have quite a lot of reading to do for whatever reason I find that a lot of the things that I do in my work are quite heavy the subject matter

the kind of nature of the interviews that I do not always but they can be and so a fiction is a release for me in that way I tend to read a lot on holiday and fiction for me is just a window into another world. But it can articulate so many things for me that is instructive in my non-fiction work as well.

And so the thing I'm struggling with is I'm reading so much non-fiction because of the prize. I just don't have the headspace at the moment to probably read a book, a fiction book. and I'm really, really missing that. And I have a pile next to my bed, and I just can't find the headspace at the moment. Well, you need to sit with stories and characters.

You do, you do. And my head is full of things at the moment. And so I think I'm going to have to wait now. But that pile's going to get bigger and bigger. Yeah, by the time you're ready for you. I know. Well, let's move on to the first story that you brought today, your first book-shelfy book.

This is a Women's Prize shortlisted book. It's the Island of Missing Trees by Elle of Sheffack, who is wonderful and who we've had on this podcast before as well. In 1974, two teenagers from opposite sides of a divided Cyprus meet at a tavern in the city they both call home. The tavern is the only place that Costas, who is Greek, and Daphne, who is Turkish, can meet in secret, hidden beneath the leaves of a fig tree growing through the roof of the tavern.

This tree will witness their hushed, happy meetings, and will be there when the war breaks out and the teenagers vanish. decades later in north london 16-year-old ada has never visited the island where her parents were born she seeks to untangle years of her family's silence but the only connection she has to the land of her ancestors is a fig tree growing in the garden of their home this is such a beloved book amongst the women's rights community shortlisted 2022 can you tell us why you chose it though kavita I remember reading this in, I think maybe was it lockdown or just after lockdown. And I had done a radio series on partition where I'd collected testimonies of people who lived in Britain.

I'd written a book and we were just going to go into production of the play. And I read this book, which is about the partition of Cyprus. and I felt like I was reading about the experiences of people I had interviewed their children, particularly their grandchildren, that wanted to know their history. They wanted to know their past, that their parents or their grandparents hadn't talked about it. And it meant something to them because it was their history, but it was also important in terms of how they felt about home and homeland and the messiness that is belonging.

And I actually wrote to Elif afterwards to say, I can't believe how, you know, this book really spoke to me. And actually what I realized is, of course, it is a book about partition and countries have experienced partition, whether it's Cyprus, British India, Israel, Palestine. But it's about war and it's about trauma, and it's about how people process that. And what you pass on to the next generation knowingly or unknowingly

and how you might not want to tell them and burden them about what you went through to protect them. But in those silences and in those absences, they know that, they feel it. And Elif said when I went back to the book, and I went back to my scribblings and I went back to those little kind of corner pages. I found this beautiful quote.

She said, the youngest in the family often have the oldest memory. And it's so true and it's so true in the work that I do that it was often the third generation of descendants of people who had lived through partition that wanted answers

in the same way as Ada wants answers too. And then you have this beautiful fig tree. that is the holder of memories and secrets and, you know, has lived on the island for so long. And I think the kind of the metaphor of that tree and the way that Elif Sheffat uses it is really beautiful. It's a really powerful book about belonging, like you've just said. And something that really stood out for me was when Costas writes in his love letter,

definitely, he says, you are my country. And it really resonated because I just met my husband and had a lot of questions about what life was going to look like where it would be geographically. And I realized actually, you're my home. What are the things that you believe transcend borders and bring us together?

Because I think we need those things right now. I think we do. And I think that's a beautiful question. I think about that a lot. Borders were often constructed. And they were constructed to divide whether that was based on religion or, you know, ethnic groups. And they are quite unnatural. And I think that, you know, a tree can exist with its roots, either side of a border.

A sky does not have a border. a bird can fly across borders. And you can see a bird or the sky or a tree from wherever vantage you are on a border. And I think that we have constructed borders. We have constructed differences. And I think, you know, there is so much more that unites than divide us. And when you go back to, you know, Daphne and Costas' stories, when you go back to the testimonies of people that lived on

undivided lands. You realize that they shared so much, whether it was, you know, language or food or customs, friendships. You know, maybe they didn't intermarried, but they had deep and profound friendships. I remember one of the most affecting things that I heard, and I'll never forget it. A boy was telling me how his Sikh aunt when she died, the Muslim best friend of the Sikh woman, suckled her child. That's how close the relationships were between Sikhs and Muslims in undivided India. And then they were divided and then in Punjab people left. And I think the memory of those people like Daphne and Costas and their parents

and the people I interview, they remember a time before borders. And I think that we have to remember that time too. And, you know, when there are. borders, just like Daphne and Costa, they have bordered their memories and their histories, and that's just not how it worked. The importance of considering the intergenerational perspective really feels profound and poignant here. As you just mentioned, your work, your programme three pounds of my pocket.

It has a big following from younger British South Asians. have you noticed a pattern of the younger generation wanting, really, really seeking to unearth and learn more about forgotten social histories? Completely, especially, I mean, British South Asians, because, you know, they listen to my programme. And by the way, British people, because that's their history too. And I always say the history I do is British history. It's just been overlooked.

And there's a huge hunger to know their history. and the story of their parents maybe before they came to Britain and then the early story of what it was like for their parents or their grandparents coming here. And I think there's something about the third generation being here. You are much more confident about your place in the country. And I think that first generation, when they came, they were fighting for equal rights.

They were fighting hard against racism. to think about your history as a luxury. They didn't have that. That's looking back. To survive as a first generation, immigrant, you can only look forward. And then that second generation, you're kind of living between both worlds. You're just trying to get on. But it's that third generation that I see wants to know their history.

And they are really comfortable with the complexity of it. They are fine with saying I'm British or I'm from Birmingham. and I'm from this part on the Asian subcontinent. And maybe my family story doesn't start in India or Pakistan. It starts in the other place before the border was put down. And that's fine. And I think that's a really great thing. And I think they have a confidence that my second generation absolutely didn't have,

and I'm really happy about that. What I really want to see is that British South Asian history is seen as British history. It's so important that we look back to look forward exactly as you just said. I've always been an advocate for acknowledging our roots with a double O, as well as the roots with an OU that we're taking, and it feels very apt to talk about roots in relation to this book with the symbiotic connection to nature and the fig tree. Your second book, Shelby book, Camita is Olive Kittredge by Elizabeth Stroud.

Olive Kittridge is a complex woman described by some as indomitable and by others as compassionate. She herself has always been certain that she is absolutely right, about everything. A retired school teacher in a small coastal town in Maine. As she grows older, she struggles to make sense

of the changes in her life through different narratives, telling the triumphs and tragedies of those around her and spanning years Olive's story emerges. First question, are you a diehard Elizabeth Strout?

Because I know some readers are absolute groupies. I read everything's right. I am a groupie. You are, you are. I absolutely love her. Every time I know she's got a book out,

I will, sorry guys, stop reading the books that I have to read and I will read her books. Doesn't even go on the pile. It doesn't even go on the pile. Straight in. Yeah. How did you come across this book then? Can you pinpoint your sort of reading experience? Where were you?

What else was going on when you were reading it? So it was really weird. I think I was, I came to it late. I came to Elizabeth Strout late. I was literally in a bookshop. And I was buying some books or maybe some books. some books for my kids. I was going on holiday. And the guy said, have you read Olive Kittred? And I was like, no. And I thought, that's a funny title for a book. Olive Kittridge.

And he said, oh, we're just kind of there just bringing this kind of book out. And I thought, okay, well, you know, bung it on the pile. And I, and I had it on holiday and I had it my book books. And my kids were laughing. Ooh, you're reading a book called Oliver Kittrich. That sounds interesting. And I read it and I loved it. And then I read everything that she has written. And I mean, if we're talking about Olive, she is a woman who is complicated and fragile but feisty and she's a pain and she's embarrassing and her marriage is kind of messy and she argues with her son. She gets people's backs up but she's a good woman and she loves community and she loves her people.

And she is so humane in all her flaws. And I love her, but I love the way Elizabeth Strout writes her at her interactions with her community. And I think the thing that I always, if I need inspiration in my writing, I often come back to Elizabeth Strout because there is a simplicity in her writing.

And she conveys so much with so little. And I think, I don't know, that's something I would always hope that I would do in my work. And I'm kind of obsessed with structure in books. And I love the structure of Olive Kittredge. It's kind of like short stories or different stories or portraits of people within a much bigger story. And I love the way she does that. And she weaves in the character of Olive in and out. of these people's lives, just as if she was coming in and out of their doors in their little town in

Maine. The word economy is exquisite because as you say, these books are short, they're basically novellas, they have this sort of episodic nature, like these non-chronological vignettes, like she's coming in and out. It's a really interesting format of storytelling. It's really, really effective, especially when she very subtly, you know, packs a punch, dives into quite dark themes at times like grief, mental illness, generational trauma. And the character is complex, like you say. She has been classified by some as quite an unlikable character. Do you agree with that? Why is it so important to see such complex female characters in this?

Because we're all complex, aren't we? I mean, and not everybody likes us or different. parts of us and I think the thing about Olive is she's quite honest. She doesn't have a kind of telephone voice and then, you know, a different voice, you know, with her husband. She's kind of who she is, which is quite rare actually. And I think that the reason people resonate with Olive and I think with Elizabeth Strout's books is you can beat both things at the same time. And her books are really humane. And I think her portraitures of people, even as you say, when they are quite short, they might be a few pages.

You really feel that you get to know them. And I think that she is remarkable in the way that she does that. She also does this thing where she just doesn't overwrite. And I would love to see her other drafts because she must be just cutting down, cutting down. all the time. Very proficient editor. I'd like to pick up on the word humanity there because you have described fiction as an escape, a release, an opportunity to go to other worlds. And we've said, Elizabeth Strauss very much reflecting our world back to us in your notes he described Olive as identifiable. What about her felt familiar? And then in turn, what is it about this

writing that still gives you the escape? Or does it? The thing about, so the thing about Olive is she's identifiable in her complexity. That's what I would say, rather than her specificities. You know, her marriage is, you know, her husband annoys her, they argue, but she loves him desperately. And she mourns deeply for him. and when he dies and really analyzes, was she a good enough wife? But I think it is such a skill

to be able to convey so much with so few words and somehow that is what Elizabeth Stroutt manages to do. And sometimes she will write things where you feel she has just explained something that is part of, of the human condition. Maybe it's through the character of Olive or just in a description of a time or a place. And that, to me, is a sign of a really great writer.

Oliver's also lived a life. You know, she's seen the death of her husband. She's an older protagonist, which we don't see as much as we should. And I love that. And in her subsequent books, you know, you see her fall in love. you see her difficulty in her relationship with her son with her daughter-in-law. And you actually realize when you read that, it's so rare to see that in a really honest way. And, you know, it's not a preoccupation of, you know, where have my looks gone or, you know,

she's still that person that she was all those years ago. She hasn't changed that much. And no, I loved reading about an older woman, but also the things that preoccupied her, which was her mortality and loneliness. You often read about loneliness and what that does to you in a book. Baileys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction

by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Now, I'm feeling very autumnal at the moment. I'm all wrapped up in a jumper, and as the nights draw in here in London, I'm really loving just spending my evenings curled up on my sofa with a good book. Of course I am. However, I have noticed it's getting darker earlier and the lights are are on as well as the heating. This is where my new lamp comes in. I've been trying out the new

serious reader's high definition light. Now what makes this lamp stand out? You may ask, well, this lamp has a special built-in feature called daylight wavelength technology that essentially replicates normal daylight indoors. This means that the words appear more clearly on the page in front of me. There's more contrast on the page from the 8th. HD light so my eyes are less tired and I can read for longer. And the great news is that Serious readers are offering bookshelfy listeners £100 off any HD light and free UK delivery. So you can too. All you've got to do is visit seriousreaders.com forward slash bookshelfy and use the code shelfy. That's S-H-E-L-F-I-E to secure yours today. There's a 30-day risk-free trial to return

the lamp for free if you're unhappy with it for whatever reason and I'll be very surprised if you are. You can return it without any hassle. You'll find the details of the offer in the episode notes in case you missed them. So come on, protect those eyes and join me in some serious, cozy reading this autumn. I think that's a good time to talk about your third book, Shelfy Book, Kavita, which is Fugitive Pieces by Anne Michaels. Jacob Beer is seven years old when he's rescued from the muddy ruins of a buried village in Nazi-occupied Poland.

Of his family, he's the only one who survived. Under the guidance of the Greek geologists, Aphos, Jacob must steal himself to evacuate the horrors of his own history. A novel of astounding beauty and wisdom, Fugitive Pieces is a profound meditation on the resilience of the human spirit and loves ability to resurrect even the most damaged of hearts. This is yet another women's prize pick. Fugitive Pieces won the Women's Prize actually for fiction in the second year of the prize in 1997.

Why did this book stand out for you? I mean, this is a truly breathtaking book and very different writing style to Elizabeth Stroud. It's a book where you read the words very carefully. I think I may have even read the book and then reread it immediately afterwards. It is very poetic and evocative. and what I love about, and there are many things I love about this book,

other than it makes you want to be desperately a better writer, is the way she portrays, particularly in Jacob's story, how memory works and the fragmentary nature of it. And memory is something that I kind of look at a lot in the work that I do. But it's also a book about brokenness and going through the worst of life and then trying to remake yourself after that and how do you reconcile a really difficult past

and how do you find joy again? So it's a very, it's a hugely complex book and you know it deals with the subject of the Holocaust in a in a in a in looking at it through again something I'm quite obsessed with the kind of generational trauma particularly in that in the in the character of of ben and there are so many themes in this book that resonate with me and the work that I do but also that goes back to I suppose a place that when I think about what shaped me as a child I've always been drawn to the work that I've always been drawn to these strangely, these very kind of heavy events, you know, be it the Holocaust or,

you know, it's the things that I've always been, I've always wanted to understand what makes people do the worst and what makes people do the best. Glad you mentioned the poetry of it, the beauty of it. You've said before that you were told that the prose in this book is, and I quote, too beautiful for the subject matter of the Holocaust. Is it important to acknowledge the coexistence of love and humanity through the most exquisite writing in the most harrowing of circumstances? It's a really interesting question.

The person that said that to me actually was a Booker Prize winner and it was a question that hadn't occurred to me. I'd read this book. And, you know, can you talk about horrific? horrific things in a beautiful way. Or are we saying that such horrific things that happen and they seem to be happening, you know, a lot, these things are cyclical?

Are there, you know, are we just so bereft of words? You know, are we bereft of beauty? And I just can't believe that that's the case because this is also a book about, of course it's about pain, the deepest pain, but it's also about finding your self. but finding pleasure again in life because surely that is what makes us continue and so I don't think her words are

too beautiful actually I don't think words can ever be beautiful enough and I think we can all express different things in different ways I mean we've just talked about you know Elizabeth Stratt would have approached this in a completely different way but no I disagreed with him when he said that And that's the importance of multiple voices and perspectives and ways of telling what on paper looks like the same story, but it's not because it's made of so many stories. I actually read a recent article with Michael.

She talked about her latest book held and she said, and I quote, choosing what to be specific about or not to be specific about also has to do with us wanting to be jolted into really feeling and experience. You can use brutal language to describe brutality, but that's a lie, because language can't represent brutality. It's exactly the same when I'm trying to get at the most beautiful, profoundly intense experience of intimacy. These moments may be indescribable, but they are ordinarily perceivable. Does that resonate with you, this idea that although indescribable, it is perceivable, particularly in your work around the Bengal famine. I mean, you know, the Bengal famine is another example of kind of the worst that can happen. And people have written about it.

I think that language is a way for us to express ourselves. And you can feel more than one thing about something that has. happens and the consequences of it. And we should never feel limited in language. And I think Anne's right. Brutal acts do not have to be described in brutal ways. And I think that there are so many different ways to communicate trauma and how that feels and how that's passed on and the effect of that, of course, there's just not one way. And there's certain kinds of ways to arrange words on a page to describe that. Jacob is in this book constantly reminded of his past, despite moving countries and

creating a life of his own, which obviously tells us a lot about the long-lasting footprint of trauma, tells us a lot about memory. Talk to me a little bit about the generational impact that you've witnessed trickle down to children or grandchildren of survivors of the famine in your own research? So in the work that I've done, whether it's partition or the famine, and actually in my own life, my father went through the partition of India and I, like so many descendants, I felt that trauma, but it was never spoken of and that's the thing. Trauma is there, even if it is unspoken. And Ben's parents always said we don't talk about the past,

but he knew something huge had happened. And so it sits there in its silence or in the absence of speaking of. But it manifests in so many different ways. And I do think that, you know, whether it's children or grandchildren, whether it's Ben, whether it's me, whether it's, you know, Ada, people will search, people will want to know what that source of the trauma is and I think they should know because that explains their parents and actually

it explains them and who they are. And when I look at what's happening in the world now, you know, with, you know, the war in Syria or Israel, Gaza or Sudan, all I can, ever think of is what is the traumatic effect, not only on the people living through it, but on the people who are not yet born. Because, and this is what I have learned, history is never history. It is always that history is our present. And even if you try to deny it, individually, or by the way, collectively, and I mean that as nations who don't talk about certain bits of history, it will come up. You've talked about silent trauma and silenced trauma, which brings us onto your fourth book,

which is a woman in Berlin by Marta Hillers. For eight weeks in 1945, as Berlin fell to the Russian army, a young woman kept a daily record of life in her apartment building and among its residents. The anonymous author depicts her fellow Berliners in all their humanistic. as well as their craveness, corrupted first by hunger and then by the Russians. A woman in Berlin tells of the complex relationship between civilians and an occupying army and the shameful indignities to which women in a conquered city are always subject. The mass rape suffered by all, regardless of age or infirmity.

Tell me about why this book had such an effect on you that you chose it. So this is a diary that was written contemporaneously and it was published in the 50s to a huge outcry, particularly in Germany. And I think that she was kind of quite widely denigrated. In fact, I think she was told she was besmirching the honour of German women. And she kind of left being a journalist after that. But the book was published after her death anonymously. But I think somebody kind of leaked her name. And I remember reading this book.

And I was, to my great shame, shocked. Because it had never occurred to me that German people had suffered so profoundly. I mean, I probably, I mean, I think I knew about the mass rapes that happened. But hearing it from her voice, what she went through, what she did to survive, she took a Swedish, she took a Russian soldier as her protector. She slept with him so that she would be protected from further rapes and so she could eat. The admission of that, she made a choice about how she would survive. It made me think about understanding what motivates people, but always understanding the other side,

but understanding the complexities of history. And also not to judge because I interview people who admit to doing terrible things, who, for example, were involved in partition massacres. And when I interview them, I don't want to have judgment because I don't know, you know, what I would have done or what I wouldn't have done at the time. and I don't know. I just took so much from that and hearing it in her own voice and about how I should approach history. Of course there are times when you can have huge judgment

when people do horrific things. But she made a very difficult judgment which was to choose to sleep with a Russian in order to protect herself. And that's a decision she then had to live with And then, you know, the book ends when her fiancé comes back from war. And, you know, individual histories are really difficult. The choices that individuals make are difficult.

And they end up living with them for the rest of their lives. Anyway, so I went back. I think I was at news night at the time and I was like, I said to everyone, you've got to read this book. Because it really, really did affect me at the time. You said that this book taught you to look at and question both sides carefully. and the memoir received, like you said, a great deal of backlash in 1959, Germany. Do you find that there's a reluctance to acknowledge the harrowing realities of past and present,

like that to the violence against women, for example, and the research and the investigative journalism and academic scholarship around these things should actually open up important questions? Of course they should. But I think war and what people do. do and who tells history is really tricky. I mean, I did the Bengal famine, which is probably one of the worst bits of our colonial history. And that is, we don't learn about that. We don't learn about three million British subjects who died in the middle of the Second World War.

That is not part of our war story. In fact, nobody really knows about it because it's difficult for us to talk about because there were actions taken by the colonial authorities at the time by some very senior people even, you know, there are implications against our wartime hero Winston Churchill. And so I think, especially for recent history,

there are a lot of reasons why we don't talk about some histories and why we do and why we haven't learnt lessons from them. You shine a light on what has not been spoken about in 3 million, which you've just announced the release of a book based on the podcast. Why did you want to make that transition? What needs to be on the page?

I think that a lot of the people that I interview, whether it's the people that came to Britain in the early 50s, partition survivors in Britain, people who were survivors or eyewitnesses of the Bengal famine, their histories have not been recorded. They are not in the official archive. And so that they are alive now, but they will not be with us for much longer. You know, the Bengal happened over 80 years ago. And I think that you can't look at a humanitarian catastrophe like,

the Bengal famine, or like partitioned for that matter, where, you know, 15 million crossed a border, without asking what that lived experience was, and it might be imperfect in the telling 70, 80 years longer. But if you don't record that story and it's not been part of any official archive, then the telling of that story in the future by future historians will not have those voices. And so we will only have the official version of history, which in those cases is, predominantly the colonial voice. And history is made up of many, many different voices. And we still, these people are still alive.

And so I just saw this little chink, this tiny light, this moment that we could record as many people as we could now. And so those testimonies will be part of the archive. And so that's why for me, it was a kind of legacy project as much as partition was. that it has to be on the paper because I want it to be there long after I'm gone. So that when people study the famine, they will also study the famine from the perspective of the people who live through it, not just what did, you know, the war cabinet say and what did they or didn't they do.

First person narratives are so important. And in this memoir, your research is so often drawn from oral storytelling. which presumably then is being transcribed. But how do you go about ensuring that survivors' memories that are communicated in such a particular way orally retain their essence, retain their truth, retain their experience? Do you even find that some individuals are hesitant to open up when, you know, others feel more comfortable, I'm sure?

Of course, of course. and I never, you know, if you're especially when you're dealing with traumatic memories, like partition, I never approach people. I would always do callouts or go through organisations and often it would be the kind of grandchildren, children that would speak to me. So I'm very respectful of that and I think it's a choice to speak and it's a choice to maintain your silence, just as it's a choice to remember and it's a choice to forget. But there's a whole question about truth and veracity with all.

history. What I would say to that is, I think there's a question about truth or veracity to do with any source material, including the official archive. And I think that testimony, even in all its imperfections, is important to have on the record than not to have it on the record, because once that person dies, that's it. once that generation dies, you can never record those testimonies. We would never, ever think about, and we should not think about, remembering the Holocaust without Holocaust testimonies.

I mean, what I would also say, I think is interesting, is you always have to be very upfront about this. The person telling you a memory is telling you it 70 years on or 80 years on. But what people choose to remember all those decades on is really telling. So pretty much every single one of my. partition interviewees told me a story of horror and I expected that what I did not expect from every single one without fail was a story of people who transcended hate to save the other for every story of killing I heard a story of a neighbor of the other religion saving their sister or saving a

a neighbor and I think that that's what they wanted to remember too was a time where people got on and a time before borders. And I think that I think we have to listen really carefully to what people tell you all these decades on because it's not what we always think it's going to be. Well, this notion of putting individual experiences at the heart of the history that we are telling

leads us on to your fifth book and final book today that you've brought to us, The Other Side of Silence by Avashi Battaglia, the partition of India into two countries, India and Pakistan, caused one of the most massive human convulsions in history. Within the space of two months in 1947, more than 12 million people were displaced, a million died.

In the other side of silence, Ovasi Battaglia places people, their individual experiences, their private pain at the centre of this epochal event. Battaglia presents a sensitive and moving account on her quest to hear the painful truth behind the silence. you've described this book as seminal. Why is that? Because this book came out in the 90s and there had been literature about the partition.

You know, short stories like Manto, Bapsi Sidwas, Ice Candy Man. But often I find with really traumatic events, the cultural remembrance comes before the act. actual people can bear to talk about what they went through. And until the 90s, that kind of oral history hadn't really happened in India, in Bangladesh, in Pakistan, definitely not in Britain, from the kind of diaspora community. And so Uvashi's book is remarkable because she does do these testimonies. She takes these testimonies, but they are women's testimonies.

And women in partition, the stories of partition are silence because it was so profound. and people had to leave their homes that had been lived on for generations very quickly in a hurry and they never went back. And so there was that huge heartache and a very difficult journey and the trauma of that. But what happened to women was horrific. Officially about 75,000 women were raped, abducted by people of the other religion or killed. And I think many, many more people probably suffered sexual violence. But there was so much shame and dishonor attached to that that they wouldn't have spoken about it. But Uvashi talks about it.

She interviews women. And that was really, really remarkable. And it was the first time that people began to speak about how partition felt to them in their own voices. And she did it with women. And, you know, so 90, it's probably kind of 50 years afterwards. that's quite a long time. But then, slowly in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, there began to be a more official taking of those stories.

But that happened only in Britain very late. I mean, it hasn't really happened in an official way. But, you know, people now, when I was pitching partition, people didn't even know really what that was. People do have a better understanding of it. I read that you were motivated to write partition voices. in the lead up to the 70th anniversary of partition. What about that time felt critical to chronicle the experiences of those who have for so many decades, like you said, being resigned silent?

So I did a radio series, first of Radio 4, where I collected testimonies of people in our country who live through partition. And I didn't know, you know, one if people would speak to me, how widespread it was, when I hadn't. kind of grasp was these stories are all around us in Britain that pretty much every person who has South Asian heritage and there's quite a lot of us has a connection directly or indirectly to partition and within families we didn't know and Britain didn't know and so there was this kind of huge trauma that hadn't been talked about. People were ready to talk 70 years on. I met people who tried for the 50th or 60th anniversary.

They were not ready, but they were ready. And I think something happens when you are reaching the end of your days, that you want to talk about your history. But I also think we were asking and listening. And I think that hadn't really happened before. And I think the people who contacted me to say, I think my parents or grandparents have a story. They wanted a know too.

And so something extraordinary happened in that period. And, you know, I feel really lucky that I got to capture those stories and those stories now, and Tessamese live in the British Library because, you know, that is really important. You know, the India office holds a lot of the archive for, you know, what was, you know, British India. now those testimonies are, you know, will be part of that too. There has been a shift, so much scholarship as well.

Surrounding colonial history has been criticised. We keep coming back to it for centering the white, male, Eurocentric researcher perspective. And women are so often viewed and have been in these perspectives as collateral damage in war. Their experiences have been relegated to the sidelines overlooked by the media, by the history books. there is this shift to refocusing perspectives, the other side of silence, a woman in Berlin that we've talked about in fiction. Our most recent women's prize of fiction winner, brilliant brotherless night. But we still have some way to go. We do have some way to go.

And, you know, talking about difficult history is still hard in Britain, you know. and I think that the way I approach this history is I don't think anyone alive now should feel blame for what happened because there is no one alive now that took these decisions but I do think we can know about this history because it's British history and so things are definitely changing there's a whole generation of writers really interestingly I think they are often writers who are children or grandchildren of empire who want to know this history, who are probing this history. But, you know, we're at the beginning of that journey. The thing that makes me quite sad is we're at the beginning of this journey just as that generation who lived through it are dying. But I think, you know, if we have this conversation in 20 or 30 years time, I think things will have changed.

I really, really do believe that because I think there's a real hunger and thirst for these stories now. I hope so. I hope we can have this conversation in 20 or 30 years time. I would really like that to revisit. You've spent a large part of your career helping us via the media to understand some of the most urgent current affairs topics. You've worked as part of News Nights team on the BBC. You've covered general elections in the UK, the historical inauguration of Barack Obama, which feels like a distant memory at this point. to the humanitarian crisis in Yemen, what do you see as the golden thread

or the driving force, uniting all of these components? Why? Why do you do what you do? I think I've always been really interested in hidden stories, untold stories, whether it was starvation in Yemen or, you know, the killing of an Afghan woman, and what that told us about Afghanistan.

I have always been drawn to that. I didn't expect to be writing history. I thought I'd be a journalist all my life. But again, it's just it's untold stories. And I thought, you know, if we don't tell our stories and our history is erased, it's not, it's not, it's not, if it's not on programs or in the history books,

then we're not telling the story of who we are. And so I didn't expect that. I didn't think that that's what I would be doing now. But no, I'm really, I'm glad I am. And actually, it's probably one of the most fulfilling things I've done because you realize that it is very meaningful to people. You know, we were talking earlier about when I was growing up, the kind of my history or what I was learning in my English class,

It didn't reflect my history or my experience or make me question things about our world. But I think that that is changing now. And I feel so lucky that I am in a tiny, tiny way part of that movement. Kavita, throughout your career you have uncovered and you have learned so much about the world, about history, about people. But I would love to ask you what over the years that you've been working you've learned about yourself. I was always struck as a child that terrible things could happen. I was really shocked when I first learned about the Holocaust or that African Americans couldn't vote or I learned that so many people died in Hiroshima and I didn't understand that.

But those things that they felt like history but they're not and we were taught never again and things keep coming up again and again and we're living through that now. And I suppose the thing I'm drawn to is why? Why do we keep saying never again and these things keep happening? And it's quite dark and it is quite heavy. And sometimes I wish I could just do something a bit kind of lighter. But I keep getting drawn back. And I feel like I'm on a kind of crusade now.

But I'm not quite sure where it's going to end. Well, whenever you do need the lighters, you've got that pile of boots. I have got that kind of books. your pet to dip into. My final question to you is if you had to choose one book from your list as a favourite, which would have been why. I know you already said it was horrible having to choose five. You don't make me do that.

I think maybe I want to say Elizabeth Strout just for a little bit of lightness, but I think it might be fugitive pieces because I need to reread it and reread again. It's been such an immense enormous pleasure to chat to you today. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast

is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Thank you so much for joining me for the final episode of Season 7 of Bookshelfy. If you've enjoyed this season, please do leave us a rating or review and tell us who your dream future guest would be. We'll be returning in the new year

with a whole host of brilliant new guests to tell me all about their favourite reads by women. Until then, make sure you check out all of our previous episodes, available wherever you get your podcasts.