Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep11: Bookshelfie: Joanne McNally

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Queen of Irish comedy Joanne McNally kicks off the second instalment of Bookshelfie series eight talking about her love for Bridget Jones, and why she’s drawn to stories about break-ups and revenge. Joanne is known for her sharp wit and self-deprecating humour, and her hotly-anticipated new show Pinotphile, which is selling out venues across the UK and Ireland, tackles everything from dating disasters to the wild journey of being single in her 40s. She’s also a primetime TV regular and one of podcasting’s best loved names, co-hosting the award-winning My Therapist Ghosted Me alongside her best friend Vogue Williams, and the hugely popular BBC Sounds format Joanne McNally Investigates. Joanne’s debut book, Femme Feral, a raucously funny and brutally honest blend of memoir and cultural commentary exploring modern womanhood, will be published in 2027.  Joanne’s book choices are: ** Bridget Jones’s Diary by Helen Fielding ** The Female Brain by Dr Louann Brizendine ** All Fours by Miranda July ** Heartburn by Nora Ephron ** Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and continues to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  Recorded May 2025. This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

I tend to, which you'll notice the books I have chosen, there's a reoccurring theme there, which is unhinged women, basically. Oh, yeah. But don't worry. It comes up. It comes up a lot on this podcast. It's fun. Yeah. You're in good company. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction, Boot Shelfy podcast, supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives.

Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list. Today I am joined by Joanne McNally. Queen of Irish comedy, Joanne is known for a sharp wit and self-deprecating humour. After the success of her record-breaking tour, the Prosecco Express, her hotly anticipated news, new show Pinofile, that is Pino, as in Pino Grijo, file, tackles everything from dating disasters to the wild journey of being single in your 40s and has sold out venues across Europe and beyond. Joanne is also one of podcasting's Best Love Named.

She co-hosts the award-winning My Therapist Ghosted Me with her friend Vogue Williams, where the two share their hilarious takes on therapy, relationships, and navigating the chaos of modern life. Joanne also hosts the hugely popular BBC Sounds format Joanne McNally investigates, with two series under a belt, who replaced Avril Levine, and do Furby spy on us? Plus, she's a regular on Primetime TV, best known for her riotous appearances on Taskmaster, the Jonathan Ross Show, the big fat quiz of everything, and many more. In addition to her stand-up career, Joanne is also a columnist for Stella magazine, where she writes her monthly column, Joe's World. Her debut book, Fem Farrell, a raucously funny and brutally honest blend of memoir and cultural commentary exploring modern womanhood will be published in 2027. Welcome to the podcast.

That was such a lovely introduction. Thank you. Well, how are you finding writing a book versus writing stand-up? Well, so it's funny you should ask. I was only kind of unpacking that last week. It's all a muscle. So when I first started writing stand-up, I was used to writing more long-form stuff to be read. I was writing stuff to be read. Writing prose.

And so writing jokes is totally different. But now I've gotten so used to doing that, that going back to writing for a book feels... Like, it's just a muscle I have to kind of re-engage. And I have, but it's very different. Because stand-up, you're just looking for... Stand-ups, in comparison, actually, I think, easier. But that sort of instant gratification of, like,

is this punchline going to be funny? Are people going to like this one little bit? Exactly. And I can go down and check it tonight. Yeah. I can just go into a club and check it tonight. and then they clap or they don't clap and then you go back to the drawing board

whereas I have no sense of delay gratification so writing a book has been challenging because I'm like, is it any good? And you can't sign sort of sentence after sentence to someone to say, do you like this one little bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And then I was kind of, I was posting little snippets of it to my Insta stories which I guess was a way

of testing it and looking for kind of immediate feedback which I've stopped that now because I was like, Joanne, that probably looks a little, juvenile, just kind of engage yourself and write the book and stop looking for claps along the way and just get it done. But you're used to, and it's a different editing process, isn't it? And I guess, yeah, I guess that you have to sit with yourself for longer, as well as sit with the writing for longer.

And that in itself is its own journey. Yeah, and I keep writing about men, no matter how much I try and write about something else, it's like this, I'm just like this man magnet, not attracting to them. I mean, I'm so attracted to them that I keep, just keep coming back and writing about men, I'm like, do you want, come on,

you have to have an opinion on something. They're fascinating. They're really, are fascinating. I mean, we're more fascinating, but they're interesting. Interesting in a way. You just want to, I want to understand. I want to crack them open.

I doubt there's a huge amount. Actually, you know, I don't fit in. I'd probably be basically disappointed if I did. Just tumble, we blown around inside. You're actually joining us in the midst of your tour at the moment. How are you finding it? Are you finding that you've got lots of energy

because you are getting that gratification, you're on stage every night, or, you know, you're tired, it's sorts it. So the last, the Proseco Express, which is the last tour I did, and the first tour I did, really, was kind of a reactive tour because the show started kind of selling

and doing well, so we were putting on shows, kind of reacting in the moment to sales and to appetite for, so it was chaos. It was like carnage. It was like 10 shows in a row kind of thing because there were smaller rooms

because we weren't sure how far or how many people wanted to see the show. whereas this is different. This has been more thought out so I'm not doing as many shows. I'm doing bigger rooms, less shows, which is actually really nice because I can have a life outside

of just being on the road, even though I love being on the road. But, you know, it's nice not eating out of petrol stations every day. But I am, I'm also obviously doing the pod and I'm writing the book. And it's, you know, the way, as well, because I don't work at 9 to 5,

I feel guilty sometimes when I'm not doing anything because when you work for yourself, you just feel like if you're not doing something, you're just being lazy or you're missing an opportunity. You feel like you should be working all the time. Whereas actually, when you're trying to create, you need downtime because you need to, you need motivation.

You need to be reading other things and watching other people's stand-up shows and kind of collecting and learning and that kind of thing. So I've a lot more downtime this time, which I'm enjoying. Also, the rest is productive. Because you need it to have that energy. Yeah, but you can convince yourself that you're not being productive. because I work from my bed a lot

and technically you're in bed you know so to the naked to the outside eye you look like you're just being lazy like rotting away in the bed all day but I'm like I'm doing important work to the naked eye you're lazy to the normal eye because I am I'm reclining so do you find much time to read

when do you fit it in if it's just for leisure I tried because it ultimately it is for leisure but it's also for like personal growth yeah you're always living and I like that I like to be able to do that So I tried to take Mondays as a reading day because I did English and university

and that we had, they kept, they gave us regular reading weeks, times to just take off and read. But of course, as a 19 year old, obviously I wasn't reading. It doesn't appeal at all,

which is crazy because now if someone said you get a reading week every, I don't know, four or five weeks, I'd be like brilliant. I know. Yes, please. Wasted on my 19 year old self.

I was just like, oh, it's a week to get pissed. Do you know, obviously, as any normal 19 year old would think, Whereas now I'm like, oh my God, imagine having a... Apparently reading holidays are huge now. Have you heard about these reading retreats? I sort of have, but I feel like my holidays with my friends

have always been that a little bit anyway. Like I know one of the books that you've picked. I won't say which just yet, but I've literally just come off a girls trip for my friends and we all read the same book. So it's kind of like a book club so that we could talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was great. Yeah, yeah.

That's exactly what it is. Now, my holidays haven't been like that. Mike, we try to get, the amount of book clubs I have tried to join and failed and, you know, I kind of, I think, but now I actually would love a set, like kind of a kind of a community of people who read similar books to motivate yourself to keep going or to pick up books. Like some of the best books I've read over the years or certainly, what I've enjoyed, were books that I was kind of forced to read because I was doing a show or I was doing maybe a podcast about the book or something like that. So I'm, I tell. I tell you. I tell. tend to, which you'll notice the books I have chosen, there's a reoccurring theme there, which is unhinged women, basically. Oh, yeah. But don't worry, it comes up.

It comes up a lot on this podcast. I love it. I love it. I just naturally gravitate towards it. It's not even like a decision. It's not even like a conscious decision. So it's nice, the joy of the book clubs that my understanding is that you're reading stuff

that you wouldn't necessarily pick up yourself and you're forced to finish it because you have to have some sort of opinion on it in your friend Carol's house next Wednesday. Do you know what I mean? So I actually must go back. that. But yeah, the reading retreats really appeal to me as an adult now. You're like, oh, God, it sounds glorious, just allowing by a pill in France reading with all these women.

Well, it can be done. It can be. I know. Let's get stuck into the books that you love then that you've chosen today. Your first book-shelthy book is Bridget Jones's Diary by Helen Fielding. Yeah. A multi-million copy bestseller named one of the Sunday Times' top 100 bestselling books of the past 50 years. The first Bridget Jones book sparked a phenomenon. As Bridget documents her struggles through the social minefield. of her 30s and tries to weigh up the eternal question, Daniel Cleaver or Mark Darcy. She turns to four indispensable friends for support, Shazza, Jude, Tom and a bottle of Chardonnay. Tell us about when you first read this book. And what did you love about Bridget?

So my memory, so it was one of the first adult books I remember reading. Because when I was younger, I don't know if you were, you probably are too young to remember. There was a series of book was called Pointer's. Do you remember Point Arras? Do you remember Pointears? So, anyway, I gorge these books, but there were horror books for teenagers. Right, yes. And I loved them. And my memory is just point horror after point horror after point horror.

I don't know. There must be hundreds of them. I don't know how many of them there are. And then I remember nothing. And I got big into radio chat shows. So at night I would listen to radio chat shows. And then suddenly Bridget Jones arrived. And it's the only book, really,

or the only series of books that I've reread over my lifetime. I don't really reread. Like I'll enjoy something and then I... There's a couple of them actually. There's two of them more on this list. But I'm not a big rereader. But the Bridget Jones, I just loved them. And I saw myself in Bridget Jones, which is hilarious

because I think it was about 12 at the time or something. Oh, but you're kind of looking forward. And I remember the same being like, I too would love to be writing a diary, drinking a glass of wine in a flat that I owe. Yeah. In London. It was so London-centric as well.

It was so grown up. Yeah. But I think if you were hurray, people say it hasn't aged well because it was all about she was obsessed with her weight and she was obviously chain smoking

and she was drinking and she was kind of man-mat right she was all about just getting a boyfriend but actually I think it has aged well because I think it's probably not a cool take on being a woman

or that's not the side of being a woman that you want to highlight for yourself you don't want people to know that you're obsessed with looking a certain way or weighing a certain something or finding a man but that is actually a really common female experience

so why pretend that it's not or why judge it, do you know what I mean? And there's a reason why they're still doing really well is because they do, I think, I think it's still relevant, I really do. Now, it's not the cool take on things as we're, you know, we're trying to be more mature now about stuff, but

it still resonates with me. Yeah, and it's one female experience. Yeah, we can acknowledge, that's all 50 billion bucks. Exactly, we can acknowledge that there's so many different sides of us and that if we are obsessing about our way, it doesn't make it okay. But that doesn't make it not true. She's just a Product of her time,

so we all are. And yeah, it doesn't really do much for the body positivity movement. But like, it's real, do you know what I mean? It's also really,

really funny. It is so funny. And I went big into Helen Fielding at the time as well. And I laugh now and I see how much I resonated with Bridget. It was like when I was watching sex

in the city as a 13 year old being like, I'm such a Samantha. Yeah. I'd like, I'd no sexual experience at all. Do you know what I mean? You always kind of age up

when you look at your characters. But Helen Fielding was talking about the criticism of lighting, some women taking offence to how this was, how women were seen, that women's priorities were kind of up their own ass. She was saying that the first book she wrote, the second book she wrote was about a refugee camp. And she's like, I wrote a very serious book and now I bought it.

So now I wrote this book and everyone bought it. And it was from the column as well, which is a hugely successful in the paper. Hugely successful, which she said she wrote anonymously for a very long time until started doing really well and then she was like, actually. It's me. It's me. Yeah.

Well, she said as well that she was writing a lot of her own experiences, but she was not calling it autobiographical. She created this character because it was a great way to be able to talk about these things without taking full ownership of them. And there is this, you know, this trope, this choosing between the walking red flag

and the prince charming. Did you relate to that? Is that something that resonated with you even at a young age? This could have been one of life's big challenges. I guess it did. And funnily, I didn't anticipate. I've actually, no, I'm not like Bridget Jones. I suppose I have some Bridget Jones, like symptoms, as in single, enjoy a drink, at the occasional fag on the weekend, and have a very close group of friends.

But Bridget's a bit of a walkover. I don't think I'm as much of a walkover as Bridgett, but I didn't anticipate that my lifestyle would mimic Bridget's as much as it did when I read it when I was really young. But there was also something. and yeah look she always kind of gets the man in the end etc but there is also something quite empowering about it she's always on this kind of failed journey

of self development she actually was kind of dipping into the wellness before wellness was really a thing yeah but she's just so funny because she's like I'm going to become my own person and develop hobbies and stop thinking about a man because that is a way to get a man

like it just really I just remember laughing and laughing and laughing which is like what else do you want from a book turnpager comedy books it's very similar actually I love that you reference sex in the city because at that age I was very young and looking at sex in the city looking at Bridget Jones

these lives that were so far from my own but I was fascinated by and wanted to emulate and funny enough you fast forward all these years and you're like I'm actually living a very similar life but you see the pros and the cons then and they did explain them at the time but I saw what I needed to see and so it becomes a book that you can read

read again. Because if you read it with new eyes, you're seeing it in a different light. I also think they're kind of teaching us a bit. We're learning from them. We're like younger women kind of reading about the lives of these older women who aren't living the traditional lives, you know, that kind of traditional domestic life that you have been sold more regularly than you're sold to Bridget Jones or the Samantha's or the Carries or whatever it is. And I think for women like myself who haven't gone down the traditional, route and it's not even that deep up bridged I just love the books but there is something really lovely in seeing yourself represented like that yeah and when it comes to that sort of iconic

London backdrop in life how long have you been in the city do you consider it home now I do when did you move so I moved just before lockdown right perfectly timed and I just yeah I do so and obviously my job is performance in credit rooms that really stopped I mean that was really really hard for working comedians. Yeah. So I was kind of just getting going. I was getting a little bit of traction. I just signed with an agent here and I moved over and then

obviously lockdown happened and then all the talk was that we were never going to be in a room together anymore. We were going to be in Zorbs. Do you remember this? That we were all just going to be in Zorbs. And we were going to hug it through like plastic. Yeah, these plastic tennis balls with our faces mushed up against

and that we never touch. And I was like okay. And then I did a couple of gigs behind like glass screens. Yeah, the pirate was it perspex? Behind the perspex. Yeah. The whole thing was just bananas.

So I was kind of freaked then because I was like, oh my God, okay, I'm just going to go back and do nursing or I'm going to try and study psychology. But I hadn't, I'd put all my eggs

into this live performance basket. So I had to very much go back to the drawing board and be like, okay, what else can I do? And that's actually how the podcast started. That's how my therapist goes to me started. But so I,

so I've been here, since, how many years is that? Five, four, five? Yeah, it's been five years now. But I always had my eyes on London. Like, I have UCAS forms at home. I always, my dream was to go and study English. I know, I heard the word UKAS for so long.

Yeah. Is it even still called to UKAS? I don't know, maybe. I don't know. It was in my father's filing cabinet at home because I was determined to go to London. I just saw it as this, it was all about the bright lights and everything could happen.

It was like, it was like the New York that was nearer to home. Do you know what I mean? The New York I could afford to fly to. So now when I first moved, I did find it quite hard actually because I didn't really know many people here and obviously I'd no job but now I love it. I just love it.

It's just so fuzzy. It really did become a huge part of the lockdown because people realised that this was a way of sharing their art and you were sharing your skills as well. Well I was just trying to like do something creative to kind of keep me in the I didn't want to lose all the work that I had done up to that point.

So I was like, how do I keep people aware that I'm here if I can't perform? So I was like, well, I guess I just... And it was actually Vogue Williams' idea. She was like, do you want to do a podcast? I was already doing a podcast in Ireland and then I swapped it over here

because you kind of need to be in the same room as someone really. But no, but I adore London. Like the fact that I can just go in and even all the show, like the West End shows and you can go in and watch Limasarab on a Wednesday. It's just brilliant.

So when I first moved over here and I'd like, no job, I was buying all these cheap theatre tickets and I was going to the cinemas and I was just, I really made the most of it. Yeah, I love it. I don't see myself moving really

at any point now. It does feel like home, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always had a bit of a grower for it though. I can't explain it. I always had a tiny horn for London. It always really appealed to me.

So sometimes I'm still, I'll wake up and I'm so glad I live here. Yeah. It's an amazing thing to come from Newcastle and it was that sort of drive to move down as well just to be a part of the big city. I also, I love Newcastle. Do you?

I love it. It's a great place. I love it. I love the look of it. I get the train sometimes to Edinburgh just to enjoy the scenery and obviously I go to Edinburgh a bit for work

and you get so much work to know the train because you're trapped and there's a lovely gentle it's kind of like being in the womb it's kind of like you're rocked it rocks you Oh the getting the train is the best

The one from London to Edinburgh is beautiful Some of it's like Hobbit style scenery Oh you're right on the coast You're right in the countryside We go through Newcastle it's so lovely

It's great And I think there's something to be said For being so proud of where you come from, loving where you come from but it's okay to want to fly the nest and see something new. But like every time, when the sun shines, so sometimes I'll do gigs in Newcastle during the summer and the sun shines and I'm down on the...

I've forgotten the name of the river. On the Tyne? On the Tyne. And all the bridge is not, it's beautiful. Everywhere I spend more than 10 minutes, I'm like, I could live here. Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and

getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Baileys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out Baileys.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. Let's talk about your second book, Shelfy Book, which is The Female Brain by Dr. Luann-Bresendine. In this groundbreaking book, Dr. Luan Brezondy describes the uniquely flexible structure of the female brain and its constant dynamic state of change. The key difference that separates it from that of the male. She reveals how women think, what they value, how they communicate, and whom they'll love. This sounds so interesting. What made you choose this book? I read it years ago.

I just picked it up in a bookshop. I just kind of went in and had a snoop around. And I do, I love, I mean, I love knowing how I work or why I do the stuff that I do. And something like this was, it's a very, it's such an interesting read. It's very, it's a very easy read. It's very digestible. And it's all these just fascinating facts about the female brain. So like I said before, I grew up, I was boy mad. This kind of explains a lot of it. It's kind of the explanation of, you know, the evolutionary reasons why you do the weird stuff that you do. And there was certain stuff that just stayed with me forever. Like I've never forgotten little facts from it. So it thought it was worth bringing into this conversation.

It talks about the communication side of a woman's brain being three times the size of a man's. Do you know what you'll tell a guy something, your boyfriend, father, whatever, a secret? And he, and you were like, don't tell anyone. And he just won't. He zoned out. He doesn't care.

He just does not care. And it's not that they're really discreet. He just doesn't give a shit. No. He doesn't register in that same way. Doesn't register. He's like, la, la, la, it's in one ear at the other. Whereas I'm like white knuckling it with this information

because I'm like, I have to pass this hot. Yeah. But I have a certain list of people I can't tell. So when someone says you can't tell anyone, I'm like, well, what you mean is I can't tell anyone through our network. But obviously I'll have to dump this through someone else because I can't keep it in my head. Yeah, I need to offload it.

I need to spread this information. And even stuff like the fact that, you know, the way women sometimes we think we're kind of witchy or psychic because we can, we talk about this female instinct or this sixth sense that we have. And reading this book taught me that it's not some, witchy woo-woo thing. It's that we just read.

We can just read because the communication part of our brain is so large that we're picking up cues that a lot of male brains don't pick up. Like, again, you know the way because like obviously I've had, I've been in several long-term relationships

with men and I find them like, I'm like, how do you not understand what's happening here? Or if they've done something to upset you or you're annoyed. And they just don't pick up. up and it. Like, I just, the difference between the female brain and the male brain, when you read into it, it's just a really interesting read. They talk about, she talks about when baby girls are born and they, they need to kind of gaze. They need that gaze from a mother to look at them, whereas boys don't really need that gaze as much. So girls need the gaze to feel validated, even as babies, which kind of feeds them into their adult life, what they're needing a lot of validation from people. And it's just a really informative, fun read that you'll get lots of really fun facts out of.

and it really stuck with me. Were there any of the things that you thought you knew about our gender and our behaviours that were completely debunked in reading this? No, actually, there wasn't. I never had any hard ideas about it really at all. She talks about the discrepancy and the sciences between men and women.

So stuff I didn't know was that the female brain is smaller than the male brain. So back of the day, they assumed it was because we were a bit thick. Right. But actually, our just cells are just... Working better. Yeah, just more compact. We have the same.

We have the same. Or stuff, like this stuff I didn't know, that all fetuses start female. And then it's whether they need to use certain bits or not. Whatever happens in the womb, look, I'm not a doctor. But that everything shifts and that's why like men have nipples. Just like fun stuff like that. I just really enjoy knowing stuff like that.

I cannot believe this has come up because this morning, me and my husband were literally just lying in bed, comparing our nipples. There you are. Like, I'm not even kidding you. And we were like, they are different, but they are the same. What are you going to do with you? Yeah.

It's a disease of no purpose at all. They're just defunct. It was a real in-depth, like, exploration. Yeah, there you go. It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating. And the way the kind of the effects that estrogen and testosterone have on your brain, your mood, like, you know, when you're premenstrual, like the difference that has on,

your sex drive, all that stuff, I just find fascinating. Like, I don't know if you've noticed this, but I certainly did when I was living with men when I had sex on top. I'd notice I was hornier before my period or when I was fertile, like I didn't understand why. Like, all that stuff, I just find fascinating.

Or that they used to think that women were inverted men. So back in Victorian times, they didn't want women to run or do any exercise because they thought they had an inverted penis inside them that would fall out if they did anything too taxing. Stuff like that. It's just fun. You know what? It is just fun.

I feel like we can get so serious sometimes about these differences. And we are, I mean, we talk so much on this podcast about, we want to be equal, but that doesn't make us the same. And I think acknowledging that fact is really, really important. We have different hormonal cycles, different balances, different brains. And it's glorious. I think it's glorious. And I just love reading about it. I find it so interesting.

I could inhale books like that all day, every day. You're there with your highlighter, like almost every third paragraph you're kind of highlighting and sending to your friends. And it's great when you're like, this explains something that I've experienced or that I've felt or that, you know, that has happened or someone I've dated. This is why I turned up to my ex-boyfriend's house and cried in the garden. Exactly. And that's fine.

It's chemical. Yeah, it's estrogen. I can't, you know, I can't explain it inside of that. Did the science in the book confirm anything, any, any, experiences with men that you were dating. Did it help you understand better? It's really good to understand your behaviours, your needs, your drives. And so I've been in relationships where I've been jealous.

And I hate feeling jealous. It's the worst feeling. But I've been in relationships where they were definitely messing around. And you kind of have an instinct about it that they tell you they're not. And then you're just kind of possessed with this jealousy. You're just going to eat your life. and what I did read in, because I've read other books similar to that book,

that women, it's all about resources for us and it's kind of your just cave hunt, like kicking in and you feel like your resources are being threatened because obviously back in the day, you had to have your hunter-gatherer, and you know what lads are like, they'll kind of wander off. They're like, I give them no autonomy,

which is terrible, but like the idea of kind of girl code that we all have to kind of fence them in together because we know that does wander off. So kind of getting an understanding of that and the idea that maybe men are more, wired for sexual diversity than women and all that kind of thing. I really enjoy. I know. Do I sound insane? No. I just really like getting an understanding of myself. I'm like, it's

resources. My resources are under threat. I think it's at the heart of everything, isn't it? It's just taking a bit of time to think about why we are, how we are, why we do what we do. In the same way that when you're talking about therapy, which you do so much, I just need to sit and think, because sometimes I don't give myself the time and I'm just going with it. You're just busy. Yeah, you have to give yourself a bit of grace sometimes and be like, it's okay that you feel like this. It's normal, you know? You're not desperate.

Like, you're wired a certain way. We've a certain wiring that I think, no matter how hard you try and override, sometimes you do lose the battle. And I always say, you know, a healthy brain feels everything. Yeah. There are not positive and negative emotions. Yeah.

It's more that they all coexist and they're all part of that sort of brain health and it's about how we navigate them I'm learning to navigate there. I also love Esther Perel. Do you ever read Esther Perel? Yeah. So her book, Mating a Captivity,

which you probably should have put in the list as well. That kind of explanation of, because monogamy and how hard it is and how we live so long now and kind of, I think a lot of, I am obsessed with relationships and the dynamics between straight relationships, gay relationships, anything. I just, that connection between two people

and how they keep it going, because I've never managed to do it, I find it fascinating. So any help, I can get an understanding why we behave the way we do. I'm all about it. Well, on the subject of how relationships keep going, I don't know how much light our next book casts on that,

or maybe it's kind of the opposite, but your third book, Healthy book is All Force by Miranda July, which is actually, as we said a little earlier, this is the book that me and my friends all took on holiday and we read. I thought it was going to be that when you said that. Yeah. Because it's right now, it is shortlisted for the 2025 women's price of fiction. It's all about a semi-famous artist in her mid-forties who announces her plan to drive cross-country from L.A. to New York.

Now, 30 minutes after leaving her husband and child at home, she actually spontaneously exits the freeway, beds down in a nondescript motel and immerses herself in a temporary reinvention that turns out to be the start of an entirely different journey. All fours tells the story of one woman's quest for a new kind of freedom. What was your first reaction to this? Well, so Annie Mack recommended it to me, actually.

and I take everything Annie Mac says as gospel. Oh, as you should. She's the Oracle. She's like, I think you like. I was like, I was like, give it a trick. Yeah. And I took it away. I was in, I went to Cape Town for a couple of weeks in January.

And some of the time I was actually, I kind of went on a holiday on my own and then met up with friends over there. So I spent the time in Cape Town reading, all for us and drinking wine. It was a very glorious experience. Lovely place for it. Lovely place for it. And to say I was in Throught, I could. not put it down. And I'd never heard of Miranda July.

I don't know where I've been, living under some rock. So she's such a... Like, the writing... Also, because I'm 42 now, and so there's just this, like, ominous presence of this perimenopause, menopause thing

that's coming, but no one can tell you when it's coming, or you're not going to know when it comes, you're just going to go mental. Do you know what I mean? And because I am of that stage and age, I suppose it resonated with me as well. And I didn't really understand that it was a book about the menopause. No, it doesn't become clear until a little further in. Yeah, because she kind of denies, at the book at one point, someone kind of suggests that that might be what's going on.

And she says, no, no, no, no, that's not it at all. So I, because some people were like, oh, God, it was a bit, bit much for me. And I was like, what? It wasn't enough for me. I could have read on and on and on. Because, yeah, it does get weird in places, but I love weird. Yeah, I was ready for next bits, next chapters. I was going to, well, she was. going to do next, what's going to happen next, how's this journey? Because the journey continues. And also she's, I love when writers really

bring obsession when they explain it so well, because I have that slightly touch of the obsessive and the way she felt about the guy from the car shop, I can't even remember his name. Davy. Davy.

And she's mad about him. And she's just possessed by him. And she writes so well about it. And it all felt a little too familiar to me as well. And yeah, it was, and she's so cool. Yeah. And the dancing. The dancing.

This book, it's, yeah, we've actually had her on the podcast Miranda July. And I remember at the time she was, I think she'd just finished all falls, but it wasn't out yet. So we couldn't really discuss because I didn't know. I hadn't seen a copy yet. And I was given kind of like an inkling of what it was about and what to expect. And she is so rye and dry and hilarious. Yeah. Like so funny.

Yeah, there was parts of that book because it was never trying to be funny. But there was parts of that that I was rolling around laughing. Like just these amazing one-liners. Yeah. I know, yeah. She's fantastic.

Well, this book is about someone who disappears from her life without technically leaving it and specifically the experience of perimenopause that we just said and all that comes with that. Do you feel like that urge to escape is something that women in their 30s, 40s, 50s even aren't allowed

to talk about, but totally feel. She describes that claustrophobia so well that I could feel, I don't have kids, but I could tell, I know myself from friends who do have kids and have partners and spouses and all that jobs, that they are kind of, there's times where they're absolutely pulling their hair out.

They're like, it's not really about me anymore. And, I mean, that's going to wear then at some stage. But I think if you're going to have a mental breakdown, she has quite a cool one, I think. It's quite punk. You know what I mean? She's not like in an asylum kind of rocking back and forth

painting the walls. She does, I think she gets a lot from it. I think maybe I'm wrong or maybe I missed the point, but I feel like she kind of cures herself in a way. She gets it out of her system in a way. She looks at different ways of living life. Yes, exactly.

There's this exploration of different ways that you might find validation or fulfilment. It's a sort of permission to make some really big changes in our lives, whether that is, for women, whether it's divorce separation, giving up your careers to look at different options.

Did it make you think I'm going to do something drastic? No, because I was, do you know what I, you know what I feel? You know the way people call it like a midlife crisis and it suggests that they've kind of lost their mind. Now I know this is a different conversation because I think she just needed a lot of HRT as she says herself, like that it was,

it kind of all came in at the same. Like, I don't think a midlife crisis, I think a midlife crisis is just that point in your life where you realize there's more to do and maybe things are a bit stagnant and you're allowed be bored with the decisions that you made. Because that was the first half.

There's a whole other half to come. Yeah. And so there's so much more out there. It's that sort of permission to explore what that might be. We don't necessarily know and we're all different. Yeah. And I know people do, I suppose, and she does kind of describe it as a bit of a mental breakdown.

But I think it's the breakdown come. from dissatisfaction. It's not like a neuro thing. It's like a dissatisfaction with your life and you're bored and you're not, you've no purpose anymore. And I know myself, I'm speaking to a couple of my friends who had kids young

and they're in long-term marriages, they're frustrated. They're like, what about me? You know? She's so funny, so raw. She discusses desire, sex, intimacy, very openly, but turns pain and taboo into humour. Yeah.

Do you think she'd make a good stand-up? She'd be brilliant. She'd be good, right? Yeah. How annoying. In your line of work, do you feel exposed to discussing these topics, or is it actually quite a liberating thing to have that platform, that forum, to do that? Well, the great thing about stand-up is, and I know we'll talk about Nora Ephron

and the whole everything is copy mantra. But everything in the way. anything that happens to you, no matter how sad, tragic, whatever, you know you're like, I'll get something out of it. It's great that you can kind of spin it into something else. You can spin it into a story or you can mine it for your job because you have to have life experience to be able to talk about stuff on stage or write about stuff. And Miranda Delai certainly has that. My God. Because it's all true. Yeah. And it's, you know what? You nailed it there because You can describe it better than I can, but she basically came up with a different way to live her life,

an alternative way to live a life. But she still has everyone in her life. She's still got her child. Yeah. And she's co-parenting and all that jazz. But she, she, and I think that's quite inspiring, actually, that there's no, it's not, it's not a failure. It's, she's, what would we say, renegotiating, I guess. Yeah, recalibrating.

Yeah. Which I found very inspiring, actually. Well, then let's talk about Nora Ephron. Everything is coffee, isn't it? And the fourth book that you bought today is Harpvern. Yeah. Hartburn is Nora Ephron's first novel based on her own marriage breakdown. Seven months into her pregnancy, Rachel discovers that her husband is in love with another woman.

The fact that this woman has a neck as long as an arm and a nose as long as a thumb is no consolation. Food sometimes is, though, since Rachel is a cookery writer and between trying to win mark back and wishing him dead, she offers us some of her favorite recipes. Hotvin is a rollercoaster of love, betrayal, loss and most satisfyingly, revenge. So I understand this to be your go-to book recommendation. Yeah. So because I get a lot of women coming to me, like mastering me if they've had breakups because, I mean, is there anything worse than a breakup? Oh, I feel like you're going to die. I think it's actually worse than death. There's no rejection in death. Like I've had breakups. My father died when I was a teenager and I've had breakups that have left me worse off

because it was the rejection of it. They're out there living their lives again with someone else. So I'm always very drawn to stories about breakups and I do enjoy a bit of revenge. I do. What's her name? Anna, what's the one's name, the photographer? Is it Lieberwitz? Oh yeah, yeah. Annie Leibowitz. Talks about her two favourite things are smoking and revenge. Of course she does. Yeah. And I just love it because we're supposed to take the high road, you know. we're taught to say nothing and take the high road and don't let yourself down. So when women take, in inverted commas, the low road,

like Nora did here, I love it. I'm like, lean in. Yeah, well, it's that thing again, you know, Nora Efron writes about devastation in this sort of light, almost casual tone, and yourself, comedians, you often turn pain into punch lines. It's that thing, everything

has copied. Did you connect with that tone? Do you think writing like that is a form of emotional survival? Of course. And she does it so well, I know she got a lot of stick, the time for people saying, because I don't think her husband and the woman he had the affair with were too happy about it. She also describes her one as having splayed feet.

It's just so petty. But it's so brilliant. A long nose like a thumb and a spayed feet. It's like it's such an amazing take down because also there was a line in it and I was recommended to me and I was going through a breakup at the time. I sound like all I do is go

through breakups. They are like a hobby of mine really. I'm always either dumping or getting dumped. but there's a line in it where she has this epiphany where I think her therapist says to her you would have left him anyway so at some point

you would have left him like you were going to outgrow this man and that was something I was savagely highlighting savagely highlighting. Just remember that it was like a bam because it just again she writes so well she's not rising above it she's really leaning into the pain

but she makes it funny so she won do you know what I mean and it's not a competition but it is a competition but it is a competition. Well, she is the queen of 90s comedies, romantic comedies. And she's kind of aserbic. Like, she's not wholesome.

She's like the antithesis to Maeve Binchie. Have you ever read any Maeve Binchie books? No. Oh, Mayv Binchie's gorgeous. She wrote Circle of Friends and she's brilliant. And she's, but it's like a hug and a book. You know, it's all kind of very wholesome. Whereas Nora, like, she's a bit of a bitch.

She slaps you across the face. Yeah, she's a bit of a bitch. Like, I think she says it herself. Like, she's proper acerbic. And like, I think a lot of people who worked there, they were kind of scared. of her. And I love that, you know. It's just, it's more real or something, even though I'm a huge big, my binchy fan as well. But, and I also, I, I love the 90s aesthetic. I love the 90s

vibe. I love the landlines and the smoking and the, I just love it and the big power suits and all that jazz. She's the writer, of course, of when Harry met Sally, the writer director of Sleepless in Seattle. You've got male. Now, you've said in an interview before that you're allergic to romance. And yet you have chosen two iconic romantic comedies, Bridget Jones and Harpen to dive into. So what is it about this genre that is pulling you in? So to me, Bridget Jones is a woman being really funny and self-loathing, which obviously I'm incredibly drawn to. Over it being romance. I don't think of it as a romance book at all.

I think of it as a kind of a journey of a woman who's single. Like to me, no matter how many times Bridget Jones gets married, dates, loses a husband, becomes a widower, widow. She's still single in my brain. It's Bridget Jones. That's it, yeah. It's not, she's, she's, she's, no one's partner really, even though she is. But to me, she isn't. And Harperin, to me is like when you're going through a breakup, you need to read Harpurn because she wins.

Do you know? She wins over him. But yeah, I guess if you look down that they are going in romantic books. But not to me. Isn't that funny? I don't see them like that. I see them as what am I trying to say. It kind of books about survival in many ways. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it is. And kind of coming into yourself and coming back to yourself. Well, this is the thing because the romance is with yourself. Because at the end of the day, no matter who comes and goes in your life, you will always come back to yourself. That's who you definitely got until you die. Exactly. That's the only thing we can be sure of. The only thing you have. Yeah. And then it's that kind of really serious message. And then also, you know, you know, know, thrown a pie in a lad's face. Like, is it Rachel? In Harper, and it's the name of the character.

She throws a pie in her husband's face and like, you know, why not? Pie him. I love it. Did Harpin at reading this and immersing yourself in this way of writing, this way of negotiating these feelings, did that feed into any of your writing, whether it's your column, whether it's your comedy, whether it's your book coming out in 2027? And, you know, you're touring at the moment as well and writing. So all this reading about female instinct, survival, navigating the nonsense that we grow up with, it must be inspiring you all the time.

It absolutely is. And that's why I was saying I'm trying to carve off time to read. It's helpful. It's so helpful. If you just engross yourself with all these amazing, funny female writers, it's going to make you a funnier female writer. You know, you're just learning all the time and absorbing. And that's why you're drawn to books that kind of represent you in a way. because it's easier to write what you know but they will kind of push you a bit more

and there's something like I know Nora she's I mean she's kind of every female writer's ideal dinner date really but Harper kind of had a reburst recently although it's never really gone away have you heard about the salad dressing drama with Olivia Wilde

no the alleged story of how her affair with Harry Styles came out I say allegedly because I have to her mate cleaner made, housekeeper, whatever they called them in America, I don't know,

did an expose in a newspaper saying that Olivia Wilde was making her favorite salad dressing and her husband asked who was it for

and she said it's for Harry styles and her husband went mad and went out and lay under the car so she couldn't reverse and bring the salad dressing

to Harry. So her housekeeper sold this story and then Elizabeth Olivia and her husband obviously went absolutely bananas

and like trying to sue everyone and they pulled the story down but it was too late we'd all seen it once you've seen that once you've seen it there's no going to get the visual of her husband

underneath the car as like a protest they were taking the salad dressing to Harry Strasz but then Olivia came out and posted and it was the Nora it was the salad dressing

that Rachel makes in Hartburn that she talks about this salad dressing so it was kind of like Olivia Wilde aligning herself with Nora Ephron and just the whole thing

I just, it's just, I just love it. It's like all these women, we're all kind of looking up to Nora or we, we see ourselves in her, we want to see ourselves in her, how she handled situations, the way she writes, the way she cooks. Now I wouldn't be a baker myself, but. Salad dressing. Salad dressing. Like Olivia, it was a real like two fingers up. It was just, it was just great.

Great move on Olivia's part. Yeah, don't even need to preheat the oven. She's like, what an amazing vinegaret. Yeah, great. But it was like a nod to Harper and I felt or to like Nora, like, or Nora followers. I don't know. Made me laugh. I can't believe we're here already,

but we've got to talk about your fifth and final book, Shelfy book. It's absolutely flown by. Your final book is Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. I remember reading this, like, good few years ago and being really, really piqued my interest about Megan Nolan, who I then went on to read other works of hers. But I think this was her debut.

She's 23 and in love with love. He's older and the most beautiful man she's ever seen. The affair is quickly conceiving. But this relationship is unpredictable. And behind his perfect looks is a mean streak. A bitingly honest yet darkly funny debut novel about a toxic relationship and secret female desire from an emerging star of Irish literature. What was it about this book that resonated with you?

Again, and like I have to say this has been quite a sobering experience for me as well when I was going through the books. And I was like, it's all about session. Yeah, this one really, really is. Yeah. She's desperate. And he is a dick. Yeah.

And she's young. She's young. And she's just, I've, because I've, again, I had that, that incredibly toxic, all-consuming, obsessive love. It was really familiar at this bit. Yeah. I think a lot of us have had that experience. So seeing it so well explained.

And again, she comes out the other side of it. And it's the same as Harper. You want to see these women come out the other side of it because you do come out the other side of us. It's part of the journey. We keep coming back to, well, it's what's the next chapter? What's the next stage? You come out of us. You get over everything.

You really, really do, to some degree. And this book, I really saw myself in this book. And I wasn't aware of Megynneau. And this was her, like you said, her debut novel. And I just thought it was excellent. And I could not put it down. Because it's that thing you cannot put down this relationship, even though you know. In acts of desperation, the man that she's obsessed with, she's in a relationship with, Kieran is his name, he's in love with someone else.

Like, she knows all this and yet she cannot walk away from it. Something so honest about her depiction of that desperation. I know. It's dark. It's dark and wonderful. The darker, the badder as far as I'm concerned. What do you think it is about these types of relationship that make them so easy to fall into? Because obviously we all, I think most women, like you said, reading this book,

will recognise elements of this kind of relationship. We read about them. How do we fall into them? Do you know what I think it is? I think it's really simple, actually. And again, that's why reading stuff like the female brain helps me understand situations like what Megan's writing about that I've been through myself. It's, firstly, there's so much projection going on.

We're all just busy just projecting all our own stuff. on to everyone else. And ultimately, you know the way, I don't know what you're like, but like growing up, now I'm a bit more mature about it, but I was very drawn to men who seemed unsure about me.

It's very exciting. You're like, oh, if you're unsure about me, then I'm unsure about me. And then when you meet a man who's mad about you, you're like, hmm, you seem ill-informed. What are you so mad about it? So then you chase the ones that are unsure

because in a way to make them sure of you, you're obviously making yourself sure of yourself. Like, you know, it all seems very, very obvious almost what you're doing. You're playing with yourself and your own validation by, like, I had a point in my life where I was like, unless I'm being seen through the eyes of a man, I don't see the point. I don't seem to matter. I don't matter to myself unless I'm being loved by a man. And if, and there was one relationship in particular, I was like, if this man's

looking at me, I don't know what I am. If this man isn't looking at me, I don't know what I am. I don't get it. And it really is a projection of your sense of security and your sense of who you are. Exactly. The saying, you know, how can anyone else love you until you love yourself? It's so true. And it took me a long time to understand that I was, it was almost like self-harm, that I was going for people who would hurt me.

And I knew that because I felt I deserved to be hurt deep down. And also you're like, if I can win him over, I must be worth something. Yeah. I need to win him over. I need to convince him that I'm worth it because he doesn't think I'm worth it. And ultimately, I don't think I'm worth it. So, yeah, he's right. He's dead right.

I could not agree more. I'm not worth it. However, if I can somehow convince it I am and also there's that kind of dopamine of when you're in a relationship and they, like I've been in relationships before where you know when that you feel them falling out of love with you and it's a very slow, harrowing process

where they won't admit it yet because they're not even sure themselves and you're saying, it's something wrong and they're like, no, no, no. And that awful, where you're trying to win them back and that's all kind of chasing that dopamine hit as well where you're, you're, you're, you're, You just want to make them love you again.

And acts of desperation, that's very much what that book is about. She's trying to constantly win them back. There is this. And she's accepting scraps. Yeah, there's this emotional tension between wanting to be love and fearing rejection. Yeah, exactly what you've just described. And taking like nonsense, do you know what I mean? And you're just to keep them in the room, in whatever capacity they're in the room.

Just to keep them in the room. Because you're like, if I can keep them in the room, I'll convince them again that I'm worth loving. looking back it's such a painful thing. It's a lesson that needed to be learned at the time. I've learned it several times. Or on the subject of lessons to be learned, what advice would you give to younger Joanne about, I'm going to say navigating relationships,

but also navigating life, because both have been intertwined in our chat today. Or is it all just great fuel for comedy? Do you know what? Do you know what, actually? And like, I wouldn't be one for downloading out advice now because I'm still looking to get advice off other people for myself. But I do think there's such great.

solace and learning in reading books about what you're going through. And I didn't really cop that until I was in my late 20s, early 30s. I wish I'd read more about relationships. When I was, when I was young, I was reading different times. I wasn't, I suppose I didn't have the maturity to be reading things like Harper and it was probably a little bit older for me. But I wish I had read more around the topics of the stuff I was going through. Because you learn so much. You take so much from it. And we're still learning. We're still learning. We're still. We're still learning. We're such sponges. We've got so many chapters still to go.

I know. And you get such comfort from reading what other women have written about the stuff that you're going through that they've already gone through. And just get your highlighter out and take it all in. It makes such a difference. It really, really does. Because at the end of the day, you're not alone. You're not alone. But also you don't have a clue. And that's okay. Yeah, you might as well try and learn from the women who do have a clue. A bit more of a clue than you. I have one more question to ask you, Joanne, and that's if you could choose one book from your list that you brought today as a favourite.

And I feel like they've all taught you so much that seems to have given you so much. So which would it be and why? I think if I was to write one of those books, if I could put my name on one of those books, it would be Harper, I think. That's a good way of looking at it. I've actually never had anyone in the podcast

who's looked at it that way. Which one would I like to be responsible for? Yeah, which would I like to be my legacy? I think it would be heartburn. I think it would be like I'm not in any way comparing myself to Nora Ephron, but it's that style of writing that I really enjoy and that funny yet serious tone of writing I like and the dark stuff. Miranda is the same, but yeah, I think it would be heartburn.

Funny but serious feels like the perfect mantra for everything that we've delved into. And some sort of conclusion and kind of crawling your way back from terrible rejection. Yeah, on all fours. On all fours. On Hort. Thank you so much, Joanna. It's been an absolute joy to have your book. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Bootschelphie podcast. Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media.

Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. See you next time.