Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep15: Bookshelfie: Nikki Amuka-Bird

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

Actor Nikki Amuka-Bird discusses her awe for Zadie Smith, the need for humour in books about difficult conversations and her relationship with playing “mean” characters.  Nikki is an actor whose career spans across film, television, and stage. She was born in Nigeria and grew up in Antigua before moving to the UK to attend boarding school. She studied at LAMDA – the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art – and quickly fell in love with the craft, before beginning what would become a stellar stage career with the Royal Shakespeare Company. Nikki has starred in a number of critically acclaimed roles in both British and international productions. She is perhaps best known for her work in television, with standout performances in Luther & the adaptation of Zadie Smith’s NW, which earned her a BAFTA nomination. Nikki also appeared in the BBC adaptation of Small Island by Andrea Levy, winner of the 2004 Women’s Prize for Fiction, and most recently as the lead in UKTV’s I, Jack Wright. Her impressive filmography spans a wide array of roles, from starring alongside Rachel Weisz in Denial, to working with director and producer M. Night Shyamalan in Knock at the Cabin. Nikki’s book choices are: ** The Colour Purple by Alice Walker ** A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson ** The Secret History by Donna Tart ** Such A Fun Age by Kiley Reid ** Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin  Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize’s BookshelfiePodcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is the biggest celebration of women's creativity in the world and has been running for over 30 years.  Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  Recorded May 2025. This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

The difference between like performative goodness or like good intentions, let's say, and actually generally taking the time to understand another life experience and like the broken systems that have led to where we are in inequality and, you know, privilege and things like that. It's like sometimes it's like sneaking the vegetables underneath the pizza. It was that vibe. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction, bookshelfy, podcast supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list. Today I'm joined by you.

Nikki and the Good Birds. Nikki's an actress whose career spans across film, television and stage. She was born in Nigeria and grew up in Antigua before moving to the UK to attend boarding school. After injuring her back, Nikki abandoned her ambitions of becoming a professional dancer and turned to acting. She studied at Lambda, the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, and quickly fell in love with the craft before beginning what would become a stellar stage career with the Royal Shakespeare Company. Nikki has starred in a number of critical. acclaimed roles in both British and international productions. She's perhaps best known for her work in television with standout performances in Luther and the adaptation of Zadie Smith's NW,

which earned her a BAFTA nomination. Nicky's also appeared in the BBC adaptation of Small Island by Andrea Levy, winner of the 2004 Women's Prize with Fiction, and most recently as the lead in UK TV's I, Jack Wright. And her filmography is also impressive, spanning a wide array of roles from starring alongside Rachel Wise in denial to working with director and producer M Night Shemalan in Knock at the Cabin. Nikki, welcome. It's such a pleasure to see you today to discuss your favourite boots. Thank you. It's so lovely to be here. And I can say because this is a podcast, a lot of people are listening. Nicky's got really comfortable. Picked the shoes off. I think it's important to feel comfortable. Yes. That's what it's about. Where and how do you get

comfortable when you're selling down to read when you're making that time and space for yourself that's a really good question i think my favorite place to read like not to be too specific is the rocking chair at home in my mom's house which is um overlooking the sea and it's just really peaceful time i think i've read so many books there and just kind of passed away so many hours and you're not disturbed you don't have to be anywhere so it's always on holiday are the best reads or on the plane going going on holiday but you can do it anywhere, can't you? On the tube or just at home on the sofa, in bed.

Do you find it easy enough to switch your mind to being present, to being relaxed? I have to admit it's getting harder and harder. That's why it's so lovely to be here and kind of reflect on how important, you know, fiction and books have been to me because I think post-pandemic, you know, I find myself like triple gadgeting. Yeah. We're so connected. Right. We know so much.

I'll be reading something I want to look up a reference and then kind of do a deep dive, you know, and Google or... And then find myself having to come back. So it becomes ever more important to find books that really capture your imagination. I can usually tell if I'll get one with a book on the first page. Yeah.

And then I know I'm in good hands and I'm away, you know. You're so right. You know, there's this new phenomenon of just not letting what's on the page be enough like I need to know more. So I've had my interest piqued in a subject, whether it's fictional or fact and I need to know more. So I know I can get into Google. I didn't use to do that. I didn't used to have the tools to do that. Yeah. I worry about it as well. Where do we from here? Yeah, that you have to kind of reprogram yourself to sit still and do it again. And one of the books on my list actually, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, it's like I was so

grateful for it because it was the first time in ages that I just didn't have my attention. and taken elsewhere. But it's something I think we're all figuring out we need to come back to just to be still and present. And books are a great way to do that. And when you do have to be elsewhere, when you're working, do you ever find yourself sort of squirreled away in your trailer on set making the time to read? Or when you're working, do you need that separation?

I find books a really useful tool in terms of research. And you do have like hours and hours to kill when you're at work. are in these trailers which sound really glamorous but it's really like a small trailer it's like oh it's glam yeah it's not at all really and so and you can feel a little bit like you're in a cell for hours at a time and so books are a great way to kind of keep yourself stimulated or you know i like to find books that will relate to the character in some way so i can feel this great sense of place and circumstance because sets are so distracting so you have to have your imagination stimulated all the time and you're creating pictures and you're

your mind all the time and books really help with that. Well the first book that you've chosen today does the interiority of a character and of characters so beautifully. It's the color purple by Alice Walker. In rural Georgia sisters, Celie and Nettie share the pain and struggle of growing up as African-American women. After being forced into an abusive marriage, Sili offers Nettie refuge from their violent father in her new home until Nettie catches the attention of Cili's husband and must leave and forge her own journey. Through a series of letters spanning 20 years, the sister sustained their hope in each other across time, distance and silence

in an absolute triumph of resilience, bravery and ultimately love. When did you first read the colour purple? It's moving even hearing you describe it. Look at me tearing up. That's crazy. It's just such, it's a work of art, isn't it? It really is. I can't remember exactly how old I was, but I know that I was too young to be reading this book.

And I kind of wonder, you know, why my mum didn't stop me. It was something on the shelf. We'd moved to Antigua, so I must have been around like nine or ten. And she was like setting up her new business. I had a lot of time on my own to kill. And I felt a bit displaced, even though we're in this beautiful island. All my friends were back in London. So I pick up this book off the shelf.

It's the colour purple. sort of accidentally open it and of course it's written by a child right at the beginning of the book and you know it's dear God and this child is in trouble she's being abused and I just couldn't put it down

and because it's written by an innocent as well and you know she's Alice Walker is obviously brilliant but she's writing in Seeley's voice who is innocent and simple and you know she's not well educated so actually became really accessible to me as a child

as a child. And I was kind of horrified. You know, I didn't really understand the themes. I'm reading about like rape and abuse and all these things. But at the same time, I just felt this immediate kinship with Seeley. And you're just rooting for her and you can't stop reading it. It would feel like a betrayal to her. She needs your support. And I think it was the first time I really realized the power of a book to sort of, you know, as a portal to transport you to a different time, a different place. And in hindsight, I feel so grateful that I'd read it young because it is about female empowerment.

You know, it's about a dark-skinned black woman. It's about someone who's considered really like the bottom of the barrel, you know, in terms of importance. And yet she finds this way through friendships and the love and support of other women to discover herself and her strength and her spiritual. and it was just a mind-blowing experience. And I remember getting to the end of that and feeling like, wow, I just really experienced a lifetime

as a child, you know? Sisterhood, nature, God being the world around us. It's so much that you can take from this and feel like your world has just been blown right open. Yeah. You lived across continents yourself. You're born in Nigeria, growing up in the UK and Antigua. And the colour of purple is so deeply rooted in place and community.

How did this novel sense of setting resonate with your own identity and belonging? And your understanding of that when you had moved around as well. I think I identified with that feeling of, you know, we had quite a nomadic existence. My mum and I, we moved from place to place, as you've said, and quite often having to make new friends and feeling like an outsider. And I think Seeley has that, you know, she expresses that as well. And also the importance of when you do find a close friend, how that friend can really ground you and anchor you. And I really identified with that.

I remember my best friend Nell being my whole life. And, you know, being lost when I first arrived in Antigua and kind of not fitting in straight away, you know, the kids would be like, English, English. You know, and they were laughing at the way. I talked and everything like that. Nell, who is a white Antiguan, but kind of just grabbing my hand and going and going, I'll show you the ropes. And, you know, how friendship can change your life, really. And also just not, I think, experiencing Sili going through, honestly, the worst that life can throw at you. You know, it puts your own problems in perspective, right?

You feel like, well, I can handle anything. and especially loneliness as a child, you know, like going to boarding school and being homesick, you are aware of like the interiority of your experience that you can, you're more resilient than you know. I think there was some of that, yeah. I read actually that you planned to visit Nigeria to reconnect with where you were born. Have you been yet or is that still on the cards? This is so interesting that you're talking about this now. it's such a big experience that's coming up in my life.

I'm reconnecting with my brother, who I didn't really know growing up, my half-brother, who lives in Nigeria. He's spending more time here. We're talking about working together and developing projects. And so this feels like the next chapter for me, not only visiting, but I would love to create work that kind of reflects my Afro-British heritage. So it's like a way for me to reconnect with a part of myself that I've always felt that I knew, but I've not been home. I think it was hard for my mom. I think she was worried

about me going back to Nigeria and, you know, I think she was very protective of me as a single mother. She wanted me to connect more with my English and Caribbean side. And now and later life, I just feel like I want to experience every facet of my heritage. Well, that reconnection with Africa is a huge theme in the colour purple. and the way that that culture and history has impacted on what it means to be African-American. And I found that so compelling. And something that I read in the foreword of the copy

that I had of this book that Alice Walker talks about how that's not talked about enough in America. Because people don't necessarily know. You mean the African side of being African-American? Yeah, it's a huge thing. And it's funny because I feel such a sense of my average. African identity because of the friends I've made in the African community here in London. Yeah. In the UK, it's a very different cat. It's a big thing. And that was something that I

immediately, through my friends, recognise this strength of self, you know, that these people who, not to generalise, but I'm not used to asking for permission for things. You know, if they want to do something, they do it. And it's something I know that my mum resonated in when she, went to Nigeria in the 70s and it's something that just feels like deeply embedded in me is that just a real pride in self and what that means and I think we can sometimes reduce identity to like racial identity or things like that but it's actually it's about rich cultural identity and that you don't have to be in the country to know about it and to feel it's in you it's in you You've performed in adaptations of some of the Women's Prize favourites, Andrea Levy's Small Islands, Oedysmith's NW.

How does the colour purple sit alongside stories like those and characters like those in terms of how black women's interior lives are portrayed? Oh, it's so interesting how different they are actually, thinking about NW and the journey's there. but I think the similarities I see is like there's a real honesty about the black female experience, about the challenges that come with that, you know, being specific to the black female experience. And also how to tap into your inner world in order to find that strength and resilience. And it's like the power of the imagination, you know, when people might be limiting the ideas of what you can achieve. It's like really having to hold on to your own vision. of self and to realize that vision regardless of what the world might be saying about you.

Let's move on now to your second book, Shelby book, Nikki, which is A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson. A Return to Love is based on Marianne Williamson's experiences as a teacher and lecturer on the self-study guide, a course in miracles. In this practical guide, she explains how applying the principles of love to all difficulties can aid in healing, inform a person. personal transformation and how you can bring universal spiritual principles into your everyday life by accepting God and expressing love. Wow. This is a big one.

It's a deep one. It's a big, deep one. How did this book first come to you? I felt nervous about talking about this book actually because it's such a personal one to me and it really has been a life-changing book for me. I think, again, you know, this book reminds me of my mother's journey and how she handed that to me. I think, you know, discovering this book in the 90s when it came out.

We had a lot of new age books and self-health books in the house. And this is kind of the mother of that genre. And like the idea that love is a radical concept, you know, that it's a doing word, it's a verb. It's something you're choosing moment to moment, that you're either living in a state of love or fear. You know, these are big concepts. But it's, for me, it's like distilling religious ideas. into an experiential thing, a spiritual thing. And I think now looking back for my mom as a single mother,

raising an only child, raising a girl, I think it was a way of her giving me agency is to remind me that like you are in control of how you process your experiences, you know, regardless of any challenges you may face. In a moment to moment, you have the choice to connect with peace or that, you know, you might not be able, I think we can oftentimes feel powerless, right?

We're reading the news and there are huge issues. There's pain in the world. There's a lot of struggle. But the idea that you may not be able to impact things in a wider sense, but you have control over the people and the impact of things close to you. So it became a real spiritual journey for me, this book. And it led me to a course of miracles, which is something that I've been studying, I would say, for 30 years.

You know, at its heart, it's about the concepts of gratitude and forgiveness, which, you know, sound quite kind of simple. But actually to return to those concepts is hugely expansive. And employ them. Yes. To really, really do it. That's right. That's right. The idea that like we're not, you know, our egos, our egos might tell us that we have to be successful, beautiful, you know, we want to stay young, all these things that actually don't make us happy at the end of the day. And they're great to play with, right? You know, we have this box of colours that we can paint with,

but that real happiness and contentment comes from within. This was the book that started that idea for me. And not just an idea, but seeing it realized in my life, seeing the experience of that, the joy that it can bring, powerful, powerful concept and beautifully written book. Yeah. When you first read it, was there anything happening in your life at the time that made that message particularly speak to you? Were you living a life of gratitude and love beforehand?

Oh, that's interesting. I think, I mean, I read it in my late teens, mid to late teens, and I think that's such an impressionable time for a person anyway. And so that's around the time when I would be going to drama college and I'd be kind of leaving home properly. so I think it gave me tools for how to process things, inevitable challenges. I think gratitude and love are things that, you know, I was always raised with, and especially growing up in the Caribbean, you feel gratitude every day. You know, it's a beautiful environment to grow up in. But then beginning my adult journey, I think it became more important to practice it.

And also becoming an actor and experiencing the world of rejection, pushbacks, you know, being judged on like superficial things, it's really useful to kind of have your own inner guide and dial that says, you know, your worth isn't outside of yourself. It's amazing to think of gratitude and love as tools for resilience, as tools for strength. Because sometimes they're like, oh, they're so ephemeral, but no, they're useful. Yeah, and I think it's quite a common tool in black households, actually. You know, I think that spirituality is like an armour for a lot of black children the way they're raised. It's like that you have more power than the world might tell you that you have. But again, you know, that theme we've been talking about, it's an interior power.

Well, on the subject of your household, of the way you were raised, you're obviously incredibly close to your mother. You refer to her in an interview recently as the greatest love of your life. It's giving Whitney, isn't it? It's giving Whitney. Could you tell us a little bit about her and the lessons that she taught you? She was just a larger than live character. And I know that everyone's mom is just amazing to them. But my mom was just entirely a product of her imagination.

And, you know, going back to the colour purple, I think one of the reasons she might have allowed me to read that book is, like, I found out just before she passed away that in her early years, she experienced a lot of abuse. You know, she lived in poverty. She was in foster care. you know I read a journal that she'd written that she wanted me to read after her death which said like they were so poor and and she was she was living with family members who you know she was living she was sleeping under the bed not even on a bed but you wouldn't know any of this from the woman you met later in life she just had this kind of like mixture of Grace Jones and Diana Ross she just had this glamorous air and you know I think she found freedom freedom through art fashion, culture, education.

And so she kind of, you know, I felt like I was living with a movie star, right? And I sometimes think like going into the arts is probably, it's like an extension of her and what maybe she couldn't have achieved, you know, in her lifetime. Emotional depth is such a vital part of your work as you inhabit all of these characters in your work as an actress. You've inhabited such a wide range of characters. Did Return to Love help you access or explore that depth in a new way when it comes to understanding the complexities of the characters you portray

or shift the way that you connect with vulnerability or compassion in your roles? Definitely. Definitely. I think one of the key themes about return to love is about shared humanity. You know, that we're all innocent. We all come into this life as, as, um, you know, babies want to be loved and to give love, right? And then who we become is is down to circumstance, which a lot of people could say is down to luck. So, you know, at its heart, it's saying that we're all connected. And that's really helpful in playing any kind of character.

I think whether I'm playing a character that, you know, is considered to be cold or warm or loving or harsh or manipulative. I'm always looking for the root of what drove them to be the way they are and always starting with an innocence at the core of what they want. There's, you know, it's like basic acting kind of prep is kind of what do I want in each moment. And most people want to love and be loved, right? And their actions, whether good or bad, are to do with how much love they're receiving, recognition they're receiving, you know, how starved they are or fed they are by the people and circumstances around them. So, yeah, I find it really. really, really useful in like not judging any of my characters. And that's been helpful because I feel

certainly after playing the part Erin Gray in Luther, I was offered quite a lot of characters that seemed really mean, like really mean and scary women. And I was like developing a real complex about it and felt a responsibility, you know, being an actress of colour that I was like, oh gosh, is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? You know, I'd fought so long to be. have access to like a wide range of roles and then I was like but why is there this scene that this is the ballbuster the bitch that and then I kind of liberated myself from that thinking you know well you're judging those characters yeah exactly and it's like if you see Al Pacino playing you know whoever he's playing you don't go oh I wonder if Al Pacino is a nice guy or not you

kind of marvel in the skill that he's playing that character so it kind of allowed me just to embrace what was being offered to me and to kind of realize that regardless of the roles you're offered, you know, it can sometimes be limited depending on where you're on your career, that you have that freedom to create something, you have that freedom over the character's internal life, you know? Well, on the judgment of characters and the constructs and morality, your third bookshelvie book is The Secret History by Donna Tart, under the influence of a charismatic classics professor, a group of clever, eccentric misfits at a New England college discover a way of thought and life a world away from their banal contemporaries.

But their search for the transcendent leads them down a dangerous path beyond human constructs of morality. Now this book is widely considered a modern classic. It's a cult bestseller. Good book. What drew you to it? I think like a lot of people, it's probably recommended.

It's one of those books where it's like, you have to read this book. It's so good. And again, if anyone's looking for a good read or if they haven't felt like they've had a juicy read for a long time,

it's really great. I think, you know, I didn't go to university and it's something I kind of regret a little bit. So I'm always looking to expand my education and my experiences, my books, my work.

And this is one of those books which is like, it's so juicy and there's so much information you feel like you're studying as well as you're engrossed in this psychological thriller. It's about privilege and academia. And there's a lot of study of the classics. And the classics and it's always something that's interested me

is kind of our relation in modern world to ancient times and what the parallels. And also what I really love about this book is there's this elitism in the book, but it also unleashes something wild and feral. And it's something that fascinates me in art and in life is kind of what lies beneath, you know, in human nature. And it's another reason I love dance and movement is like what people really are, what their drives really are.

and this book captures that really well. It's just incredibly smart. Donatah is just like such a brainy writer. What did you make of the moral ambiguity in this novel? And as an actress as well, do you think that performers are naturally drawn to those grey areas? Yeah, I think as an actor, it's part of what we do is try and mirror that for society.

It's like why do we do the things we do as human beings? And, you know, you have to go into dark territory sometimes because you have to deconstruct it in order not to be afraid of it. And I think this book charts it very well, you know, the peer pressure, the need to fit in. It's great because the protagonist, if I remember correctly, he's from like a modest background, like a working class background. And he feels like the world of the rich and the elite and academia has been opened up to him. and yet there's something there's a dark heart in it there isn't you know

it's something that power you know the concept of power and how and corruption runs through the book and yeah I think that's a very relevant thing to explore and keep reminding the world about and I remember when I first started acting as well and having not been to university

feeling you know feeling quite small in a lot of the rehearsal rooms I would go into a lot of like academic people and feeling like a lot of Oxford graduates who would just have these references and historical references. I was just like sweating, thinking, I don't know what anyone's talking about. And just growing in confidence, you know, in intelligence, it resonated me in that way with the protagonist and how he grows in confidence and his own intellect. It's so familiar to me having come from a background where when I did end up in one of those institutions,

I had that feeling of just really desperately wanting to fit in. Oh my gosh, which institution? I went to Cambridge. Did you? And I felt like such an outsider. And like you said, actually, it wasn't just the things that people knew, but it was the confidence they seemed to just have in their bones. It felt like a game. Yeah.

You know, like ping pong throwing these references about and, you know, catching them, throwing out another reference. I mean, I look at, you know, I look at you in awe that you went to Cambridge. I just think, from the outside looking in, it just seems like, wow, and you swan about being smart and having other people really fuel that and help you expand your mind. I'm sure in reality it was much more challenging. There's great insecurity, I think, in a lot of people, because that was what it looked like, I think, from the outside.

I mean, the novel does explore this world of privilege and obsession and academic elitism. And perhaps, you know, you say it wasn't familiar to you having not gone to university and then you felt it at drama school. But you attended boarding school. As an institution, you know, that sort of feels like it carries strong intellectual tradition. Yes. Did anything about that rarefied environment feel familiar or striking? Well, I attended like a very progressive boarding school. I think that was part of why my mum was drawn to it.

So, like, we didn't wear any uniforms. Right. Okay. by our first names. I think the motto is like, create, think, explore or something like that. So very different. Very different.

But, you know, very smart in how they had the children engage academically and how they would find different strengths and different pupils and then maybe encourage us to help each other so that learning became something that we were told straight away wasn't like a punishment or something you had to do. It was just something that was just something

that was for your own self-expression. Because understanding that is not something that is imbued in a lot of kids. Like, we were just, I was talking to my friend the other day, who's, you know, sending her kid to school for the first time. And it's like, he doesn't know what the point is yet. Because he doesn't see how it's applicable to actual life, to real life. Yeah, it's so down to how you're taught, right? And the teachers, even that small thing of calling your teachers by their first names was so key.

It's like they're not above you. about authority telling you what you have to do. It's like these are your friends essentially who just want to share something great with you. And it happens to be geography. Yeah. So I, but I look back and see, I think that's one of the things I'm most grateful for from my mom sending me. I know she fought hard to send me to that school. You know, we didn't really have the money for me to go to that school.

And she quite often did this. She did this with Lambda. It's like, we tag team. She would, she would raise the money for the first time, send me. me to the school, then I had to go to the school and work my ass off. And then she'd be like, okay, to the school, we need a scholarship. But it was always like, we'll figure it out later. But, you know, education was big, big, big thing in our house. And yeah, I'm really glad for that. And you being aware of that will have instilled such a work ethic in you.

The atmosphere in the secret history, it feels in some way similar to your most recent TV show, I Jack Wright. Can you tell us a bit about that? What did you enjoy? that starring in it. Oh man, it was such a good read that script. I hadn't received a script with a part like that, I would say maybe not since NW in terms of a character written specifically for a woman of Nigerian origin,

but yet so free of any kind of stereotype or cliche, you know, it was like a leading role in an ensemble of really rich characters and I felt that Chris Lang, who's an incredible, like, not only like murder, writer, but psychologically so sharp and astute, really understood what it would take for a woman like Sally, the character, to come from nothing and achieve what she achieved.

And then, you know, she's a QC, she's the wife, she's a mother, she has the world at her feet, basically, and then she's at risk of losing everything and how she would fight for that with everything, you know, she had. and I you know it's juicy like you talk about strong female roles female women and they don't often come along like that written for black British women but also so three-dimensional so complex and with such heart baileys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired

with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. It's time to talk about your fourth bookshelfy book now, which is such a fun age by Kylie Reid. We've mentioned academic institutions and actually Kylie Reid, we've had her on the podcast before and she's talked about her fascination with academic institutions as a setting for much of her work, I know come and get it is very much on campus.

Yes. But this is such a fun age, which is brilliant. When Amira is apprehended at supermarket for kidnapping the white child, she's actually babysitting, it sets off an explosive chain of events. Her employer, Alex, a feminist blogger with the best of intentions,

resolves to make things right. When a surprising connection emerges between the two women, it sends them on a crash course that will upend everything they think they know about themselves, about each other and about the messy dynamics of privilege. Callie Reed loves to explore those dynamics. She's so good at this.

She's so good. Why did you choose this book as one of your five? It's such an interesting process preparing for this conversation, right? Because you can't really distill like all the books you've read. There's so many. So it's like which ones have stayed with you and it's about also the time that you read them. I read this during the pandemic and I read this. You know, we were in such.

a fascinating period of cultural identity and discovery. Yeah, it was published 2020. Yeah. So it sort of intersected a lot of conversations at the time about race, Black Lives Matter. Yes, times up. Like, it was all happening. The conversations were all happening, and it was overwhelming.

I know a lot of things were coming up for me. You know, we're talking about boarding school and, like, realizing that I'd grown up in a predominantly white atmosphere. And even though that seemed normal quotation marks at the time, You know, actually you realize that you are constantly aware of being an other. And, you know, I know so many different people going through so many revelations and realizations. It was an extraordinary time. I had conversations with black and white friends that I never had before.

And somehow, Kylie Reid with this book kind of tackles all of those issues, but most importantly, with humor. With humor. This is a lightness of touch. You know, as it says, as the title reminds us. It's fun. And I think that is the best way to tackle issues like this is not to kind of, she's not preaching. She's not, you know, she's simply kind of amusingly interrogating things that need to be interrogated. So it was just such a needed antidote.

And so it was a great way also to share those things with my friends. You know, I had some white friends really like my. best friends having conversations and fears that they were handling things and the concept of microaggression becoming like a wider conversation and it's like a great book to start those conversations those debates through you know at a time when you're being asked so many questions everyone comes to you and goes how can I be better I'm like that's it's great that you want to but I'm tired it was good to be able to press this book into people's hands it really was and it kind of did all the work for you but it's like it's not blaming.

It's kind of, you know, the difference between like performative goodness or like good intentions, let's say, and actually genuinely taking the time to understand another life experience and like the broken systems that have led to where we are in inequality and, you know, privilege and things like that. It's like sometimes it's like sneaking the vegetables underneath. underneath the pizza. It was that vibe.

Yeah, really challenging, shifting the way that we think about the dynamics of race, class, really serious issues. But with that light touch in everyday life, she does it so well. And it's entertaining. It's entertaining. It's entertaining. And you're having a great time reading it. Yeah. And crucially, none of the characters, even Amira are protagonist.

You know, none of the characters are, like, they're all flawed, you know, and they're all confused. And even Amira is trying to find herself. She's not, you know, she's not holier than now and she's not blameless in any of this. And I think that's really important, like a kind of 360 look at everything. Yeah, and these characters are so three-dimensional. It is so important that, you know, bestselling books, these books that are mainstream encompass a range of contemporary black perspectives where their characters are three-dimensional. I read that you fought hard for the role of Natalie in Siddie Smith-S-N-W because you had lived in Wilson Green.

You had a real affinity to the part. What was that experience like bringing such a London relatable story and character to life? I did fight for that. Sometimes a script will land in your hand or a part and you're like that this is like I have to play this. I have to and it doesn't always work out that way. And when it doesn't, the heartbreak that ensues. And this was just one that I knew it was the right time for me to take this role. And like you said, I was living in NW at the time.

And I think what was so important about it is this idea of like breaking through the glass ceiling. But nobody really talked about the impact that can have on the psyche and how traumatic it can be actually, you know, to have to push yourself harder and harder and harder. And there's this, you know, thing that I think certainly my generation was talking. you have to work twice as hard to get half as much. And it was just a standard directive. But actually pushing yourself twice as hard in everything that you do is too much, right? At some point, your hardest is good enough. You don't have to be twice as hard in everything.

And I felt like this was such a sophisticated complex exploration of that. And about female sexuality as well, it was so bold. structurally, yeah, it still feels like, I still, sometimes I'll bump into Zadie Smith at an event, I'm still just in awe of her mind and just how bold and creatively she can like tell these stories. And it felt good because it felt like, I felt like we captured a structure that almost feels like jazz in her writing. Like she's just playing with form and like rhythm, this really exciting way. and so like we had that propulsive feeling when we were shooting it and yeah it was a good one I always feel like Zadis Smith's swing time is literally music on the page

yes I love that she has that thing she has it she has the rhythm yeah and she's someone who's really carved out her own space you know only she can inhabit that how do you actually because she's got this huge following how do you find the experience of acting in book adaptations do you feel this additional pressure to fans of the book it's my favorite thing okay that's my favorite thing. There's nothing like the marriage of like the two art forms and literally so nerdy, isn't it? It's like delving into a book and you'll actually be on set and you're like, I'm in the book. I'm in the book. You know, it's just so incredible. It means like in your break, you can go back and you can look through different passages and like usually the author has like

really carefully delineated your inner journey. So you don't have to ask yourself what the previous circumstances are you literally have everything you need. It's just, this was really exciting. Yeah. And now we're in this age of like diverse casting. So I've been in a Dickens, you know, been in a Jane Austen. All these books you can be inside. I'm time traveling now. It's amazing. Your fifth and final book, shelfy book really does take us inside, but this time inside the gate. So cool. It's tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow by Gabrielle Zeven. When Sam catches sight of Sadie at a crowded train station one morning, he has catapulted straight back to childhood and the hours they spent immersed in playing games. What comes next is a decades-long tale of friendship and rivalry,

fame and art, betrayal and tragedy, perfect worlds and imperfect ones. And above all, I need to connect, to love and be loved. There it is again. Come on now. A Sunday Times multi-million copy bestseller. What drew you to tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow? I feel like everyone was talking about this book when it came out. It was just one of those ones. Everyone had it on the tube or wherever you went and I was really craving a good read and I think I was traveling and picked it up at the airport and it was just as good as you could ever have imagined. It was better. You know, the gaming world is not something that I have access to. The last time I did any video games was like Game Boy and Super Mario and Tetris. So I really appreciated

it genuinely opening up another culture, subculture to me. And this idea of platonic love, an epic love story that's between friends is something that resonates to me the more and more the older I get, you know, relationships or lovers might come and go, right? But your friends, your real friends have seen you through so many different chapters in your life and real friends will have seen like the crappiest parts of you as well you know and I think what it tackles so well is how much you have to invest in friendship in order not to grow apart um because you know marriages and kids and relationships rightly do do trump those friendships at some point you have to reinvest and you have to rediscover each other but again it's that it's a new version of this idea of

interior life, isn't it? Through the video games, which I didn't really know about. And you have the main character who's dealing with disability and feeling kind of like an outsider. And yet, through the video games and the gaming culture, he has this incredible freedom.

And that's a theme, I think, that resonates with me just generally. Well, you're stepping into different identities and worlds and playing with personas in the game like you do as an actress. And you know, Actually, you mentioned a documentary. Yes.

It sort of explores similar themes in reality. Remarkable Life of Ibelene, which is on Netflix. I think it's still on now, which is one of the most incredible films you will ever watch in your life. Again, this is a real story about a boy who is immobile and I'm not sure if it's like motor neuron disease. I'm not sure exactly what it is. But, you know, in a wheelchair, isolated and yet, and when he passes away, short version when he passes away and his parents post online that he's he's died they discovered that he has hundreds of not like thousands of people he's connected with online and he's changed lives and he's

fallen in love and he's he's lived this you know alternate life um and it's it's just very beautiful it's very touching i think it was the last book that made me cry it was the last book that really and it was quite a long time ago now so it's embarrassing but it was last book that really just i felt this relief of like having a book in my hand that again i was just like there's nothing better there's nothing better than a good read you know well both tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow and also the color purple explore overcoming adversity and about the ways that we can rebuild ourselves through connection and creativity if you could take a mess. message around that or a feeling from that from either of those books into your own life and

creative practice what would it be it's interesting now that we're talking I realize maybe apart from return all the fictional books I've chosen there's like they're led by an underdog you know it's that underdog overcoming those obstacles and it largely through their creativity and then we mentioned my mom as well and I think I think that is creativity is freedom right your imagination your interior life like no one else has ownership of that other than you and that's how we find agency as as women as women of color is the the sense we have of ourselves you know above and beyond other people um how other people might see us and how we express that in the in the world you know i think I feel so fortunate that

I've been able to choose a creative path and artistic path but that that creativity is there in everything we do like whether we're making a meal or you know how we are spending time with loved ones or you know for me that's real freedom

yeah and when it comes to your creative path and your artistic path yeah what's next for you oh gosh that you can tell us about Well, no, it's an interesting one. I think in terms of acting roles, you know, it's one of those. I'm in talks. I'm in talks.

But I'm going into this new chapter of developing my own work and projects and kind of revisiting my roots as a dancer. Oh, no, that is freedom. I'm only going to be 50 next year and I'm like actually doing my first dance project. But it's just so it just feels like a natural time now. I think I've had, I've been really. really fortunate, the parts I had recently was so complex and rich and rewarding and I feel like I really understand that in order to carry that on, I have to be a part of developing those as well

and creating work, not just for myself, but like enjoying the community of creatives that I'm meeting and the relationships I've made. Like I said, I'm kind of reconnecting with my brother and talking about projects that kind of connect the African-British experience and, you know, know, he's very excited because there's a thriving Nigerian film industry. There is like, sis, sis, you got to get over here, you got to get over here. So, yeah, I feel like I'm going behind the scenes more and more now. And, you know, I hope the next time we meet, I can say that I've made my first, whatever it is. I'm excited, yes.

Yeah, it's time to really express myself, I think. Well, Nikki, one final question. If you had to choose one. Stop. Yeah, I know, I know. I know. This is a question that's so often asked to actors. I'm like, one, once like your favourite song or your favorite film or your favorite child.

It's not fair. But here we are. Okay, sorry. One book from your list as a favorite. Oh my goodness. I'm going to go a return to love. I know it's kind of a safe choice, but in terms of a book's ability to change the course of your life, I think I have to, and that you would continually.

return to the concepts as a comfort and as a guide. I would say that one. I think life changing is a good criteria for picking your favourite. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Nikki, thank you. Thank you. This has been excellent. Oh, so nice to talk to you. This has been a return to love. Glowing. And you. And I'm so excited to see you dance. Oh, bless you. I literally got butterflies when you said dancing now. No, no, right now. We don't have to do it right now. Right now we can just sit. and enjoy. This has been lovely. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so sure. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Price for Fiction Bootschelphie podcast.

Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. See you next time.