Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep16: Bookshelfie: Thangam Debbonaire

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Chair of Judges for the 2026 Women’s Prize for Non-Fiction, Baroness Thangam Debbonaire explains why the prize is so important; the enduring importance of democracy for women worldwide; and her formative years working in a communist bookshop.  Thangam is a Labour Member of the House of Lords, where her key interests include arts policy, international cultural partnerships and diplomacy, copyright and AI. A former Labour MP, she served as Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport from September 2023 until May 2024. Before parliament, Thangam worked for 25 years on the protection from - and prevention of - violence against women and girls, both nationally and internationally. She was recently announced as chair of the judging panel for the 2026 Women’s Prize for Non-Fiction, sponsored by Findmypast.  Thangam’s book choices are: ** The Pursuit of Love by Nancy Mitford ** My Ántonia by Willa Cather ** Democracy: Eleven writers on what it is, and why it matters (ed. Margaret Atwood) ** Looking at Women Looking at War by Victoria Amelina ** My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize’s Bookshelfie Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is the biggest celebration of women's creativity in the world and has been running for over 30 years.  Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. A couple of friends of mine and I, because we've all loved this book, we do actually have a code which goes Hans cupboard.

And that means let's meet quickly, genuinely. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction, bookshelfy podcast supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope, and I am your host. for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives.

Join me and my incredible guests, as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list. Today, I'm joined by Baroness Fangham Davenair. Bangham is a Labour Member of the House of Lords, where her key interests include arts policy, international cultural partnerships and diplomacy, copyright and AI. A former Labour MP, she served as Shadow Secretary of State. for culture, media and sport from September

2023 until May 2024. Before Parliament, Thangham worked for 25 years on the protection from and prevention of violence against women and girls, both nationally and internationally. She was recently announced as chair of the judging panel of the 26 Women's Prize for Nonfiction, sponsored by Find My Past. Dangam, I love the way your face sort of scrunched up with joy

when I said that about women's face. How's it going? Can you say? Yeah, you can ask, and I can say some. I love it. I mean, I was a book prize judge last year, but for a much narrower definition. And it's just brilliant to be able to just have the perfect reason to say, no, this is reading time. Yeah, yeah.

This is really reading time. This is work. And schedule it in and always have a book with you, which I do anyway. I mean, that's a habit, so that's fine. But actually, really thinking hard about what makes this an interesting book, what makes it accessible, makes it excellent. It's great. Have they all arrived yet?

Have the boxes descended yet? Well, some boxes have. I'm pretty sure there's more. There's more. There's always more. And nonfiction, they're long. Yes. Which is fine.

I chose nonfiction. I wanted to do it. I'd enjoyed judging political nonfiction last year for the Allwell Prize. And really felt sort of geared up to this one. I'm excited. We were just saying before we started recording there when I judged, this box of books the first descended and I didn't have enough space on the shelves in my flat

had to get new shelves eventually had to get a new flat I love that I love that I'm sort of the same not quite in that order but somewhere along the line this year I moved into a new home and the space in the space was just great and it was the first time that I'd been able to think I'm going to get bookshelves installed to fit and for exactly what I want I did that the bathroom needs doing but it can wait

That was the first thing to go in with the bootshelves. It's important. And what do your boot shelves at home look like? What are they full of? Are you a non-fiction kind of person? Or do you also love your fiction too? Both, but I go through phases or I have been through phases. For about five or six years, I only read non-fiction.

And then I absolutely jumped straight back into fiction. I'm filling in gaps as well of things that I started when I was in my teens and 20s. I think I really actually want to finish. I want to finish reading Bals at, which. makes me sound really, I don't know, something. But, you know, there's an opportunity to do that. I can do that. I can decide. But not at the moment. There's an awful lot of Balzac,

and there isn't time for Balzac when you're actually reading very long women's nonfiction. Well, that's it, isn't it? It'll still be there. There's different times in your life when books fit, when they're right for you, when you need them. And perhaps Balzac isn't right now. He isn't.

He's over there. He's on his own shelf. Crucially, he's a man. So he's not going to appear. Man and very much. much dead and very much not written in English first. So we're fine. On three counts, he's not eligible. What are your criteria? What are you looking for in your judgment? Well, I want, this isn't the official criteria, excellence, accessibility and originality. And you know, you can interpret all three in all sorts of ways. But I am looking for beautiful

writing. I think if you are doing all three of those, it should be beautiful. There is no reason not to write beautifully. And I think that's part. of how you make something accessible and excellent. And also taking what might look like a really dry subject and doing it in an original way gives you an opportunity to approach it with artistry and really thinking about what that means. And given the subject matter of some of the books,

I think it really does matter to me. I think there's an awful lot of books that can take an original dry-looking subject and turn it into something absolutely magical. That's the mastery of it. Well, we'll see. I've got a long way to go. We all have. But great team of judges to be working with. Incredible women. Have you all met? You've all spent a little bit of time together. We've all spent time together and that was just brilliant. So a big shout out to all of them. We got together a few weeks ago now, I think about a month ago for our publicity shots. That was fun. And we talked a little bit about how we're going to read, how we're going to plan it in. And a couple of us have done book prizes before. Some haven't. Some of the people on, there's also the, there's also,

the women's prize for fiction as well and there are some people on both judging panels who are writers so they've got maybe one way of looking at things and we we swap tips we keep in touch there's something so inspiring and uplifting about setting foot in that room with all of those women you mentioned the books that we might return to or there might be a right time in our life where they speak to us where they change the way we look at the world or the way we look at ourselves so let's delve into your bookshelfy books that have done just that that have shaped you. Your first bookshelfy book is The Pursuit of Love by Nancy Mitford. It's right there next to you. The pursuit of love satirises British aristocracy in the 20s and 30s through the

amorous adventures of the Radlitz, an exuberantly unconventional family closely modelled on Mitford's own. Mittford's wickedly funny prose follows these characters through misguided marriages and dramatic love affairs as the shadow of World War II begins to close in on their rapidly vanishing world. The book was an immediate bestseller and sold 200,000 copies within a year of publication and continues to be much loved today. Why is this a go-to recommendation for you? Beautiful writing and it's funny and it does encapsulate as you said so well there. It encapsulates a time and a place and a social milieu that I would never have been part of but it's sort of, it is fascinating but she does it without pomposity, she does it

with humour and self-deprecation and great tenderness as well. It's also, I think, brilliantly constructed in that the very last two pages, there's a sudden to the plot. That's what you want. And I remember when it first happened, when I very first read it, I brought along the original copy. I actually have lots of copies. This copy was given to me by a then-boyfriend who gave it to me for, I think, my 21st birthday,

and he gave me the pursuit of love and love in a cold climate. The relationship didn't last. going to say. Partly maybe because the next book he gave me was William Burroughs The Naked Lunch, not Brunch. And I really didn't like that. I mean, that's not the reason we split up. But that was kind of, it didn't help.

But this, as you can see, it's been well, well read. And I've now got actually one of the very first edition in Harbac from that very first year publication. And I bought it for any number of other people. Why is it a go-to book? I suppose partly it reminds me of a particular time. and you know all our lives you know the the first excitement of falling in love and how that works out and that's it's it's just beautifully done and yet it's almost giving me a sort of flashes to think

about it yeah it's the self off and also it does it takes me that but also it's it's incredibly comforting as a story it takes a lovely course um through in particular Linda Radzlett's life and I've come back to it many many times I've also met other people who love it so there is a feature in the book called the Hans cupboard which is a place

that the sisters go and hide when they want to talk without being heard by the grown-ups also it's the only warm place in the house and a couple of friends of mine and I because we've all loved this book we do actually have a code which goes Hans cupboard and that means let's meet quickly genuinely

So we, it's stayed with me and I've actually, I don't say judged people who don't like it, but I've certainly judged people positively who love it as much as me. Yeah. The Radliffe family, they are there, they're larger than life, but they are so familiar. Did you feel like you recognised anything from your own childhood, your own life? Yes, in that I came from a family of three sisters and the sisterly relationships are really important. And some of the ways in which they relate to each other, I think anyone who's had sisters to whom they've been close and grown up with,

you know, you can relate to some of that. And that, I think, crosses class. They are a very upper class family. So there's some bits of their lives that I think I have no idea what this is about. But actually, a lot of it is universal. It's, you know, the universal theme of falling in love, the universal theme of sisterhood, which is there for so many of us. and the shapes that that goes through,

which is a theme in one of the other books that I've chosen, is sort of how women's relationships shape our eyes and what they do for us. And it's a great backdrop for a story of actually a woman who's determined to fall in love with a man. And, well, I won't say anymore because I don't want to plot spoil. As well as being universal thematically, it's also really stood the test of time.

It's sustained despite being originally published in 1945 and the backdrop being the end of the Second World War. What sustains it as a favourite to this day, do you think? I think there is a universality. It's a bit like the first time you read Wuthering Heights and you think, well, that's always going to stay with me as an expression of great passion and destructive forces and wild nature. And it does.

And I think there are books for everybody. But I think this one sustains the test of time because it's on those universal themes and so, so well done. It's been dramatized for TV utterly brilliantly as well, which I think brings in new generations of readers. Sometimes things get dramatised and it's a disappointment. But I actually think that the dramatisations that I've seen are really, really good. But nothing beats the book.

And Bangham paint a picture for me. Tell me what 21-year-old Dangan was like when you received this book from your then-boyfriend. I was, I remember reading it in the bookshop in which I worked. I worked in a bookshop, which was called The Little Book and Cucing. card shop. It was in the covered market in Oxford. And the main reason that the owner of that bookshop had for the bookshop part was to sell books by, and that were communist books. And I have no idea of a reasonably good guess. This was back in the 80s, where they all came from. They were in one section of the tiny, tiny bookshop. Then there were the Mills and Boons over

there. There were the science fiction on your left shoulder. There was classic fiction over there in Reminders. And I can't remember what was over there. And it was a tiny shop, but we used to have our regulars. And in the middle was this tiny little wooden, effectively a cage in which whosoever was on that day. And I used to work, I think, two, three days a week. And this is while you're at uni. And it was while I was, well, it segued me out. Right. I was doing a math's degree. And after a year and a half of it, I realized that math's degree and me were we're not going to get along. And I actually was playing the cello because that's what I was originally trying to do. And probably in retrospect, maybe I should have switched to music.

Instead, I switched to working in the bookshop and filling in a lot. of literary gaps, which I really, really enjoy. But one of them was this. I can remember sitting there, reading it, and you weren't supposed to be reading. Because, of course, you're really supposed to be watching the customers. Well, of course, you know. But my boss, Phil, you know, he used to go off and leave us in charge. It sounds like it was as enriching as it should be at time.

Well, he was a communist who taught me a lot about capitalism. Right. Yeah, I mean, he was a really good capitalist. He knew how to make that bookshop work, which is lovely because there's a point in this where Linda goes to work at a bookshop and it's actually based on a real bookshop in which Nancy Mitford worked in the 40s and 50s

and retained a stake which is in Mayfair which I stumbled across recently I knew it was there and then suddenly I thought oh yeah I recognise this Well from this very formative time in your life as a reader we move on now to your second bookshelfy book which is My Antonia by Willa Kaffa

My Antonia is the unforgettable story of an immigrant woman's life on the Nebraska Plains seen through the eyes of her childhood friend Jim Burden by Pulitzer Prize-winning American author, Willa Kaffa. It was first published in 1918, the beautiful, free-spirited, wide-eyed girl captured Jim's imagination long ago and haunts him still, embodying for him the elemental spirit of the American frontier

and exploring the hardships of pioneer life and themes of social prejudice. Now, this book was an escape for you when you first read it. Tell us a bit about that. I bought it actually in America on my very, I think my very first trip, certainly, I mean, I haven't been to America many times. And my eldest niece is called Antonia. And so genuinely, I kind of knew Willa Cather existed. And I was vaguely aware that she was like an archetypal American frontier author.

But not much more about her. And I was in Barnes & Noble in, in, God, I could try and I remember what, Minnesota. And I saw it and I thought, okay, I'll read that on the way home. And I was going through a particularly tricky time, didn't really know, all sorts of things were a bit tricky for me at that point. And I just read it solidly in one go on the flight, on the way home. And it was a good reminder of what the best of fiction in particular can do. But I find nonfiction can as well, which is where you have a special relationship, just you and the book. It's like a superpower.

And that book has continued to be a comfort to me at times when I'm trying to work out what I want to do or where I'm going wrong or all sorts of things. But it's also, I particularly love it because the main relationship between a male and a female is never consummated. It's not an in love relationship, although I suspect at times the male character is in love, what I think he pretty much is. but they remain friends and that sort of challenges an archetype as well of the sort of when Harry met Sally generation

of which I'm one that men and women can't be friends which is obviously not true but that was a particularly beautiful moment and it's a theme of Willa Cather's books there are really interesting male-female relationships in all of them there are strong women in all of them

and I've got again I've got many copies of this book again I've got a first which I treasure I've got different hardback editions I've got different paperback editions I've given it away to many people I think because it provides useful explorations of

how strong people in really difficult circumstances can make their own way through those circumstances and how they draw on other people how they draw on friendship again women's friendship is particularly important in the plot and a woman's determination

to chart her own course and make mistakes and be a good family member and, you know, deal with the things that we perhaps all at times find difficult. And because of the nature of frontier times, there are many elements of it that you think there is a political challenge to that time of American history of whose frontier were you on anyway, but their life were very tough. The Nebraska Plains, there were Native American tribes that were displaced. But these These families were also effectively displaced, displaced by poverty, to start a new life, effectively in a hut that's barely even a hut. I mean, it's more or less a hole in a ditch.

And yet they build a life. And it's difficult. It really does bring the American West to life. Place and setting is so beautifully evoked in a way that it's a character in itself. And as a result, there is a lesson in belonging. What lesson, when you're pressing this into the hands of all the people that you like to recommend it to, what lesson in belonging would you like them to take from it? Oh, that's so interesting.

I think anyone who's struggling to think about the connection between person and place, it helps make sense of that and how you create a relationship with a place. I mean, it's a big theme of Willa Kaffa's books. The place is always a character. And I think she just paints landscapes so, so, so. well so vividly. And she actually does grapple with the issue of Native American tribes and what that means. And I think in this particular one, it's because of that relationship between the two main characters, but also Antonia's relationship with other women and with place and

where that matters and how a particular place can be part of shaping your life as you can in turn be part of shaping the life of that place, which she very much does, Antonia. Place is so potent in all of her work and you've said actually in your notes that Willa Cather is now one of your favourite authors is this the book that you recommend readers who are not familiar with her work or are there others that you've loved as well by her?

There are. I think one is Shadows on the Rock because the setting is so extraordinary in the character of sort of 16th, I think, century, maybe 17th century, but Montreal is just quite something. They are all about sort of frontier new generations I mean to be honest it's a bit like Vermeer

There's only so many that are extant that still exist That she ever wrote So you can kind of read them all in one lifetime quite comfortably I've read them all several times in one lifetime And I probably well several times again There are different themes music is another theme So there are some which very obviously like the Song of the Lark Which is about one of the characters is music

Women and their lives are that's a constant theme now I think I genuinely would suggest anybody who hasn't read any Willa Cather my Antonyer isn't going to be the way in for everybody but I would go and have a look at what

Willa Cathers there are because they are all incredibly really good examples of a combination of excellence, originality and an absolute beauty what I'm realising Pang was that you're a returner to books you said a few times that, you know, I've read that before, I'd read it again, I'd have this version on my shelf,

then another and another. So you like to return to novels. Why do you think that is? I'm also a return to films and return to music, so I'm a classical musician by training. I think some books, maybe not all, but any book that really fulfills the qualities that we're looking for, the women's prize, for instance, is going to yield something new at different times in your life, in different situations and similarly with music and with film

and I think great works of art really bare repetition would you go and see I don't know a great painting and just stand in front of it look at it once and say you're done maybe some people would but I think if you really love it

you will come back and you will think I never noticed that before and similarly with books and I do think different times of your life you find different things there are little seeds that I think Willa Katha has planted in her books that come out at different times when you're reading them in different circumstances,

whether you're reading them when you're happy or when you're sad or when you're going through change. When you've learned something and all of a sudden it all makes sense. Yes, yes, exactly that. That's, yeah. Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books. into the hands of more people.

Baileys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out Baileys.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. Let's talk about your third book today, which is Democracy, 11 writers on what it is and why it matters, edited by Margaret Atwood, another one that you brought to us today.

Women are often at the forefront of the fight for democratic rights, as well as being the most vulnerable when those rights disappear. As we know, it feels particularly important right now. In this book published in 2024, The Year of Elections, 11 extraordinary women, leaders, philosophers, historians, writers and activists, explore democracy's power to uplift our societies from its ancient origins to its modern challenges. This is obviously an incredibly appropriate choice given your career in politics. What do you love about this book? Well, the subtitle, I've got it in front of me and it says, this is an exceptional moment for democracy, and it was last year. And I lost my parliamentary seat in the election.

I was a Labour MP. I was in Kirstalmers shadow cabinet. I was expected to go into cabinet in the same role. Most people did, which was the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, which also covers heritage, gambling, civil society, use so as it goes, it's an enormous portfolio. And so it's a lot of work. And I also had a parliamentary seat to contest. And out of a landslide victory for the Labour Party, I was one of four Labour MPs who lost their seats and two that were in shadow cabinet.

So I had the opportunity, shall we say, to think quite a lot about how much democracy meant to me. Around the time when I lost, I said quite a lot, look, I believe in democracy and I love democracy. You can't just love it when you win. you have to love it when you lose, which was actually a great comfort. It wasn't just something I was saying, although it did help when I didn't quite know what to say. But this book I read, I bought it in the National Theatre Bookshop where I was using the cafe there as a sort of place to work. You know, I didn't have an office anymore suddenly. And I didn't have any work to begin with.

So I was trying to work out, you know, what am I going to do next? That was taking meetings. And I bought this book. So I thought, well, this is a good time for me to be reading. 11 women writers on democracy in White Matters, especially as one of them, Yuan Yang, is now a Labour MP. She was a journalist and I know her quite well. She's a good friend.

And it covers such breadth, but also I then went on to judge a political book prize, the Orwell Prize. And actually, this was a good example of why it's important to make sure that you are commissioning work from women. and it's why the women's prize still needs to exist because so much of what we got sent initially was by men and that's you know it's fine

but actually the work by women there wasn't traditionally women didn't write about politics mostly because women weren't in politics and now I was only ever the 4003rd woman in all time to have been elected to a UK parliament there are 650 MPs at any one time there were more men in politics at the time I became an MP than the number of women who'd ever been an MP.

I know it's mind, it's absolutely blows your mind. Absolutely blows your mind. And to be honest, I'm now in the House of Lords where, of course, because until not so long ago, there were no female members of the House of Lords, I'm quite low down the list there as well, as in quite early on, whatever. This book is brilliant because democracy really does matter, and we live in an age of autocracy in many, many countries. We live in an age of conflict. We live nature of geopolitical strife and I think democracy needs us more than ever to stand up for it because an awful lot of

people nowadays are going well maybe democracy doesn't work to which I would say let's look at the alternatives for a moment I've been learning Arabic for a while and my Arabic teacher is of Syrian origin she's now a British citizen she's a wonderful woman and she taught

me a lot about the difference between not democracy and democracy and having studied a lot of the ways that non-democracies function and particularly for women, I would say at the moment women's rights are under threat in democracies as well as in not democracies, but democracy still gives us ways of being able to do something about that in a way which not democracy very often just doesn't. And this book really does. It brings together multiple women's voices to interrogate

the meaning of democracy because of course it's not just, oh, that's what it is. No. Why are women's voices so important? I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, kind of a silly question, but it begs to be addressed? In 1917 or 18, a group of women from the Co-op Women's Guild travelled to Parliament because they'd been lobbying for something which we would now call child benefit, family allowance, something like that, a cash benefit to be paid regularly to women as mothers. And they found it very difficult to get political support.

And they watched the bill committee where that was happening. And they realised on the way home that there was no way around it, they were going to have to stand for Parliament themselves because no one else was going to make the case so well. They had to sort of engage male allies. It's tricky. Actually, painfully for me, the Labour MPs at the time didn't, they weren't in support.

So they realised they were mostly Labour women, but they realised that they couldn't rely on their male colleagues. They had to get into Parliament themselves. That's one of the driving forces for me about why we aren't needed. Whenever we're not in the room, we're not, there are subjects that don't come up but there's also perspectives that don't come up it's annoying actually that until women are in the room

we don't discuss childcare but actually more and more now it does get discussed by men but it wouldn't have been if women hadn't been in the room to bring it into the room and this matters because democracy has traditionally been seen and painted in the House of Lords

there's all these pictures of loads of men in the House of Lords and I think yeah that's why I'm here actually because while the House of Lords exist whether you like it or not. It exists. It exists with the rules that it's got. I want to make sure it's got diverse voices,

diverse experiences, and it matters that we have people who actually care about how laws are made, and that isn't always where people go into politics. But actually, that's the job of politicians. That's what it should be. It's what it should be. And I think that I'm not going to stereotype women,

because I don't think that's particularly helpful, but the choices about topics for legal change shift, and you can track, that as more and more women go into Parliament. We don't have discussion really about changing the law on domestic violence until there are more women, a critical mass. No Home Secretary went to a Prime Minister and said, we need to discuss why rape conviction rates are so low until we have the first female Home Secretary.

So Jackie Smith. So it does actually make a measurable, demonstrable difference to women's lives and to men's and women's lives and to the world if we have a plurality of voices in democracy. And this book really demonstrates this. I mean, there's one chapter here which I just reread that just now, which is called Why Democracy Failed in Afghanistan. And actually, in theory, it could have been written by a man, but it wasn't. And so some of this is just about recognizing that women can write about subjects that men write about.

We don't just have to write about women. That's not actually what she's writing about. She's writing about why democracy failed. But so often in discussions on Afghanistan, women's voices are silent. silenced and that is it is absolutely infuriating and doing that means that we are poorer as a world because we're not hearing from the lived experience but also the the sheer quality of Adela's brain we'd be missing out if we said well we won't bother listening to women politicians in Afghanistan what

ignited your desire to fight for change to go into politics in the first place I was from a political family. Well, on my mom's side, it was a very political family. On my dad's side of a lesser, he's from India. But both of my parents were musicians. There's a whole heap of contradictions there. But I was brought up to believe in politics being the thing that changes lives. And I still believe that.

And I was brought up very much in the Labour and Trade Union and Co-op movements. So those are my natural, intellectual and political homes. That got tested quite a lot when I was working in the communist bookshop. because I made a point of reading the communist books and going some of this isn't really working for me but it was a good way testing it out for quite a lot of people

well exactly and it was the 1980s so by the end of that decade when I've been reading a lot of communist literature it was clear that quite a lot of other people agreed and they'd been subject to communist tyranny so I mean I hear quite often some people say well you know communism just wasn't done right no that's not the reason it didn't work

but igniting that interest was important and my grandmother who would have made an incredible member of parliament had always encouraged me to be political and think politically and then tediously I had a series of tedious explanation but I did have a couple of very political boyfriends

who I have to admit did teach me a lot but I sort of really in retrospect which wish that I hadn't had to sort of learn those things from them but I did and I did and I'm grateful and one of them was an incredible source of encouragement and still is throughout my political life. But eventually somewhere along the line I stopped thinking that he knew everything and I just had to sit and listen.

I'm glad to say. We do have to address the fact, actually, that it nearly wasn't politics. I mean, it could have been cello. It could have been music. It wasn't. It still is, actually. So I play the cello. I started when I was four.

My first professional concert was age 10 and I was Swedish prison for men on live sentences. So, wow. I know. I know. And I gave a professional concert last week in Barryson Edmund's Theatre Royal with two other musicians. But also I had 20 years in domestic violence work. And somewhere along the line, music sort of didn't take any lesser place of importance in my life. But I couldn't keep up the professional skills.

One of the things you have to do is the pads of these fingers are very tough if you are playing the cello every day. And they start to soften if you're not practicing often enough, which makes it feel. physically painful when you go back to it. But emotionally and mentally it was becoming painful because I just could not keep up that standard I wanted. When you're used to practicing four, five, six hours a day. If you don't have that time. If you don't do that, if you can't.

And there's a limit in the end. So I remember the concert. I thought, I'm not going to do this for money anymore. But I still do it for love. And last week I did actually do it for money again. Oh, this is how you connected with the women's prize because you played at one of our annual summer parties. Yes, I know.

Actually, we've played at quite a few. We're never sure if they actually want us to come back or we've just muscled our way in. So, yeah, I have a string quartet of all women, two women of colour, called the statutory instruments. We are the parliamentary string quartet. It's a very loose definition of who we are now. But when we first got together, we were all in some way very much connected to Parliament.

I think that arts can play this huge role in keeping democracy strong and open and engaging people. We definitely thought so. In the Brexit years, and it was the Brexit years we were rehearsing in mainly, A lot of my colleagues said, oh, it's so comforting hearing you guys play late at night. We had to play quite late at night because one of us as a journalist who had to be on tally reading and doing the news, writing and reading and presenting the news, not just reading the news. And, you know, we kind of had to wait for her to finish and I'll be sitting there watching Channel 4 news saying to her, Kathy, hurry up.

Kathy Newman's our second violinist. But, you know, it was a wonderful thing. For political turmoil, I think music can get you through a lot. music, art and books. Books definitely. We know. All the way. Books, books, books.

Brings us very nicely onto your fourth bookshelfy book, which is looking at women looking at war by Victoria Amelina. When Russia invaded Ukraine on February the 24th, 2020, Victoria Amelina was busy writing a novel, taking part in the country's literary scene and parenting her son. Then she became someone new, a war crimes researcher, and the chronicler of extraordinary women like herself who joined the resistance. Now, this book centering on the extraordinary efforts of Ukrainian women who are fighting back against the war,

not with weapons, but with their intellect and resilience, was published in its incomplete form after Amalina was killed, age 37, in a missile strike in June 2023. Now, this book was awarded the 2025 All-World Prize for Political Writing, which, of course, you were a judge of. tell us about why you chose this as a winner from the start the quality the beauty of the writing was what absolutely grabbed all of us

it was a very strong shortlist and the rest of the shortlist all very worthy winners ones that didn't quite make the cut were really really good it was very very hard to get down to a short list Victoria Amelina I think I might have read her first out of the panel, and it was absolutely spellbinding, but spelled binding beautiful as well as horrifying, moving, upsetting, funny in places.

Again, the relationships between women are really important. And the fact that there isn't a comma in the title, it is looking at women looking at war. So she is looking and she is writing, but she's also in it. and the poignancy of the fact she was killed in a missile strike Russian attacking Kiev is hard because she was a writer of a very promising career and we kind of want in a book prize is that the person's career is going to be going to take off and I mean actually I'm pleased though sad to say that her career is going to posthumously be improved I don't know improved It's going to have more attention as a result of this book. Others of her books that were written originally in Ukrainian,

this one obviously was not written straight into English. I'm now being translated, I'm told. It's also a beautiful example of originality of form because the way it's been done, partly because she'd edited some and some of it not, and the editing panel who composed of people who knew her writing very, very well, had to make a series of decisions about what they put in,

how they did it and how they marked this bit Amalina hadn't finished editing, which adds to the poignancy, actually adds to the work of art. Where were you when you read it? Because I understand that there was a healing quality to your experience.

Yes, I was in India and I was staying at a very small, very beautiful courtyard hotel in a city, it's not really a city, a town. called Pondicherry or Puducherry, which is just down the coast from Chennai where my family lives.

And I went there several times, I mean, I've been there several times, many times actually, in my life. And my family come and join me and my mom and my partner. And we have a lovely time then. We have a family holiday. We do things. But over the last few years, I've also thought about it as a place of sanctuary for me. and so it proved to be last year when I was busy trying to work out what I was going to do next

but at one point I just took a load of all World Prize books long list books with me some of them on an electronic form because you know these books are heavy some not on this one I read electronically and it was in a very special spot for me which is a particular seat on the first world balcony of this particular courtyard hotel with only about 10 rooms.

I've stayed there in monsoon season, just sat underneath the veranda all day with the rain pouring down. I've sat there in baking heat. I have read and read. I've written and written. And it seems to do something really good for both by reading and my writing.

I had to read it all over again when I got back just to make sure it wasn't just... In a new place that still work. And yes, it did. It really did. And that particular place of great... Yeah, I would say healing.

for me. It's a place where I know people, I have friends in that town who've been very kind and caring to me at the time when I needed. Now we're about to have in lots of laughs. But yeah, it's a very special place to be reading that book. We mentioned, obviously, at the start of this episode, you've been announced as the chair of judges for the 2026 Women's Prize for nonfiction. You've sort of got that prize judging bug. Particularly, it's a lot of It's important for you to be celebrating, uplifting, female written, nonfiction. Very much. How has this experience been different judging the women's prize?

Well, for the All World Prize, we did have, and you know, the winner was a woman. There was also one, which I won't name, but where there was just a near absence of the presence of women at all. And it was about politics and I thought, oh, come on. Like, we've been here. Stop pretending we never existed. And that irked me. And I thought, it's incredibly, it showed me the importance of having a women's prize for political nonfiction.

I think, like, lots of things for women. Like when I worked in domestic violence, our aim is we'll never be needed. One day will never be needed again. Not there yet. One day we won't need. I mean, my party had all women shortlists. Not now, because we're at 50-50 women MPs.

But before that, we needed them. when we didn't have it, the number of women MPs in the Labour Party stayed very low, and the number of women MPs and other parties stayed even lower. Why do we still need the women's prize for nonfiction? We still do. We'll know and we don't need it anymore. We really will. Amalina's voice has become part of Ukraine's cultural memory in recent years.

And we keep talking about the importance of remembering these voices, supporting these voices. how can we ensure that artists like her, aside from winning prizes, because only so many can, are remembered and supported? I think prizes like the Women's Prize absolutely do that. I mean, just by celebrating, recognizing women's nonfiction, in a way we're sending out a message, a clear message to everyone, which is, hey, women write nonfiction too. It's really good.

It's really good. Some really, really good women's nonfiction writing. And I habitually, I mean, I have done for many years, actually, when I go into bookshops, when I'm watching TV panel shows, when I'm going to conferences, I always count the women. And I once very recently, I'm afraid to say how to say to a conference organizer, you had a panel of 12 people there. Literally, that was a bad idea, but you had 11 men. And I'm not saying she looked like a token because she didn't. She was incredible. But I do not believe that you couldn't find more women.

and they said, oh, it's really hard to get women. I said, no, no, no, no. They said that. It's hard to get women. I've heard that before, I said, not having it, not having it. And similarly with books, and I think we will know when we don't need it, but there is such interesting, brilliant, excellent work. And it's an incredible privilege to be part of reading so much, promoting the value of women's nonfiction, encouraging all of us to start thinking,

did I just pick up a shiny book because I'd seen it, you know, it rings a bell. Well, that's because it's by a political journalist who, yes, is very good, by the way, political journalist friends, but you know his name, so you pick it up and then you read his book and, you know, was that how you chose? There are so many brilliant books by women and in the non-fiction department and I really want to see every single bookshop, just making sure that they really are actually covering that and noticing when they don't, because the key here is always, you didn't even notice that you hadn't not many books by women. And you're arguing with me about why it matters. That is the discussion

I've had with some people. Well, why does it matter? We should be gender blind. But you obviously aren't. Otherwise, all your books wouldn't be by men, you know, or not books. That's less of a thing in bookshops, I think, because now we see women's books a lot. I still think it's the thing in politics, in events, all sorts of places. And until I don't have to go, or you don't have to go, why is there any one woman on a platform of 12 political speakers? then we'll still need to keep doing this and just keep reading, keep reading. I would say that to everybody, by the way, just keep reading. I would say it to my nephews and nieces, now they're growing up and they've got their own kids.

I said, it doesn't matter if they're just reading the packet of a packet of crisps as long as they're reading. Well, that's it, isn't it? It's not just women reading women, but it's men reading women. One of the things that gave me the most hope, not that long ago, I was sitting on a train opposite a boy who I now know is 13 because I asked him. And he was reading, We Should All Be Feminists by Timand and Gauzi Adich. And I said to him, I was like, oh, is that on the curriculum now? And he went, no, I just think I should probably read it, in it?

And I was like, oh, my gosh, yes, because you don't need a reason. You just feel like you should, and you would, and you want to. Oh, I nearly want to cry now. I know it made me cry. Sorry, I squeaks then, but it's partly that that also reminds me of the young men maybe who don't discover the pleasure of reading until they have a child of their own and then realize actually reading my baby a bedtime story is actually a pretty cool thing to do. and then discover reading.

You know, there are... However you get in. I don't care. I mean, my parents very much brought me up to say, you know, read the back of a jar. It doesn't matter. Just keep reading. Well, let's keep reading. We have one more book to discuss.

Oh, no. It's your fifth and final book, shelphy book, which is my beautiful friend, a firm favorite on the podcast here by Eleanor Ferranti. Beginning in the 1950s in a poor but vibrant neighbourhood on the outskirts of Naples, Erna Ferranto's four-volume Neapolitan novels series spans almost 60 years as its main characters, the fiery and unforgettable Leela and the bookish narrator, Eleanor, become women, wives, mothers and leaders, all the while maintaining a complex and at times conflicted friendship. This first novel in the series follows Leela and Eleanor from their fateful meeting as 10-year-olds

through their school years and adolescence. Can you tell us about the really special circumstances of when you read this book because it was while a close friend of yours was dying? Yeah, and I'd, a really, a close friend of mine from childhood, I mean, we were teenagers when we first met. And that, I wanted to read, I started off reading this book because I'd seen the title, my brilliant friend,

and thought that is such a wonderful title. And the picture's really evocative. on the front cover it's two little girls and female friendship I know this is going to sound like a cliche but it is incredibly important and it's sustaining and my friend who was dying was she'd always said that she

felt that passion in friendships was an under-recognised quality and there's passion in this relationship there was passion and a lot of her friends and I talked about this at her funeral about how passionate

so many of us were about her she inspired passion and she inspired us to think again afresh at the nature of friendship and how much the passion can exist. Passion is not just about sexual attraction although sexual attraction might wafed in and out

from time to time but actually what sustains friendship as in my view what sustains close intimate relationships is passion and that can be shared passion for music which is what brought me and my friend together we were both young musicians together and and also a bit like the characters in this book she and I went through periods when we didn't see much of each other and then as she said to me well she actually said to someone else who said oh how you know how come you two haven't seen each other for a while and she said it to the other person it doesn't matter when

the bond is this strong and I can remember thinking then because that was when we both knew we had cancer and she was about three months behind the treatment cycle from me. I already had lost my hair. She hadn't. You know, we were at different points. And at that point, we were both, we didn't have great prognoses, but not terminal ones, but they weren't fantastic. And we were such a source of support to each other for making, you know, silly jokes. And when we couldn't, quite often when you're having cancer treatment, you just can't, you're too tired to talk, but you don't, you still want company. So we used to text each other from our hospital beds and various points and tell each other where we were watching a particular hospital

drama that we used to watch. And I read the last book, the weekend she died of the quartet on the day after she must have, well, she died. After the day she died. And I kind of got them, I kind of knew she had. And it felt really important just to get to the end of that quartet because the beginning had been in the middle of her coming to terms with the fact that she was my beautiful friend. She's very beautiful and in every way and she was going to be taken away from all of us who absolutely adored her and her three children. And the nature of the friendship, I felt it's not the same. You know, Lena and Leila's friendship is very, it's beautifully told. But it has again universal themes of sort of love and passion and misunderstanding and feelings of betrayal

and then recognition of how much you mean to each other but you can't put everything behind you but sometimes you can and now I think when Claire was dying the things she just she didn't teach us this but she reminded us of how important just being together was and the last time she and I spent time together we didn't do much talking but I felt something akin to what I think is described in this book beautifully because a lot of it isn't about chat, it's about experience and it's about knowing the bond between you and this other person is just there. It's a bond.

That's what being a beautiful friend is. Yes, it is. That play of love, of tension, endurance. And shared history. And shared history. Because that's what this quartet and the first novel in particular sets all of that up. My Brilliant Friend, First novel is the excitement of childhood friendship. And especially for, you know, when there's one friend who's thinking out and if I'm ever going to find someone like who understands me or oh, I understand and then finding them, finding new layers to that friendship.

And then the over the years, yeah, it's a remarkable story. And it will always remind me of this beautiful friend and how much she still means to me. When did you realise she was your beautiful friend? Did you know from the beginning or did it take you till the end of that quartet? I think from the moment I first met her I knew she was my beautiful friend but in the book that's such a lovely question reading the books just really

reminded me of why bonds matter they're very different people that's not the point you're not always reading a book for identifying with a character sometimes what you're doing is identifying with the emotion the feeling with the evocation of a particular memory of a particular time in your life and it did it helped me to grieve and protect and enjoy some really really lovely memories

it's so interesting that you said that your friend claire didn't teach you these things but reminded you of them and you also said these books reminded me those things are always there they were always inside they were always in your friendship but it sounds like it was a really cathartic experience reading them, seeing them written down on this page, and that's something you can always return to. Yeah. And it's kind of, one of the things I found very sweet was in the end for the last few weeks. She couldn't talk terribly easily, but we carried on texting each other when we couldn't talk anymore. And the last conversation we had on text was about the two characters in Grey's Anatomy, who by then, she was three or four series ahead of me

she had a little bit more time than me to watch and I asked her did Derek and Meredith ever get married and I can't tell you what she said because that will be a plot spoiler but you know plot spoiling. Her last words to me were yes they do which felt like a nice ending

and although I didn't know that that would be the day she was going to die it kind of became obvious that she had her text messages had stopped and I'd sent to some flowers and but those messages will always do that. Yeah and And the thing about grief is how you can move from processing the pain of missing someone

to the being able to accept that the pain probably never goes away, but the joy is more accessible again, the joy of having had passion for someone who felt passionately about the world. You know, whoever that moment, we all have those people. And I'm, yeah, I'm very grateful to Elena Ferranti, actually, for helping me to, it was therapeutic. Yeah. And I'm so glad that you have.

had, Claire, for those things too. Thank you. I'm going to ask you one final question, and it's the hardest. If you had to choose one book from your list of five today, as a favourite, which would it be and why? Well, that is tricky, and yeah, I mean, that's just so mean. And they're also different. You didn't tell me you were going to ask me that mean question. I think it actually would be the Nancy Metford, the pursuit of love, because of the familiarity

but I'm torn because part of me now, especially now, we've just been talking about it. I kind of want to choose my beautiful friend and cheat a bit and have all four of the quartet, which I don't think you'd let me, would you? I'll let you do whatever you want. It's funny because we said at the very beginning of this chat, these boots come into your life at different times. You might reread them and they mean something different to you because of what you're going through and who you are at that time.

And who you are at this particular moment is someone who's just had this conversation about my beautiful friend. So that means something to you right now. So you can have them all if you want. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for talking so beautifully about all of these books. And I wish you the best of luck. Thank you. For your judging journey.

Oh, no, yes. Well, thank you for that. But thank you so much. That was a real pleasure. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Boat Shelfy podcast. Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes.

If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. See you next time.