Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep17: Bookshelfie: Kemi Rodgers

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Presenter, DJ and radio host Kemi Rodgers is excited to head back to the jungle for the new series of I’m A Celebrity and shares what books she’ll be packing for the journey. Kemi is best known for her work on Capital Radio and as a co-host for I'm a Celebrity: Unpacked on ITV2 alongside Joel Dommett and Sam Thompson. Kemi’s love for music extends beyond radio – she fronts her own music series, Moxi Mixtape, for Universal Music and her expertise led her to produce a documentary for Warner Music. She also shares her passion for history in her own social series, History with Kemi, making history accessible and engaging for her audience. ** Angus Thongs and Full-Frontal Snogging by Louise Rennison ** Friends that Invest by Simran Kaur ** Three Women by Lisa Taddeo ** The Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion ** The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize’s Bookshelfie Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is the biggest celebration of women's creativity in the world and has been running for over 30 years.  Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

I'd never had a book that evoked so many feelings that I literally had to act on them the moment I finished the page. I didn't know what to do it myself. I should have just gone to bed, but I couldn't. And I think that's a really special and a really powerful book and people would have had different experiences reading this book. So it's really important to me because it just evoked that kind of feeling from me. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction Bookshelty podcast supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices, and our perspectives.

I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list. Today I'm joined by Kemi Rogers. Kemi is a presenter, DJ and radio host, best known for her work on Capital Radio. and as a co-host for I'm a Celebrity Unpacked on ITV2, alongside Joel Domit. Kemi's love of music extends beyond radio.

Her expertise led her to produce a documentary for Warner Music. She's also a familiar face at festivals and events where she frequently DJs. She often hosts art events and shares her passion for history in her own social series, History with Kemi, making history accessible and engaging for her audience. I like that with everything. I've never been introduced in that manner before. That was fantastic. I want that every day. I'll go around with you.

It's like a kind of like audio CV. I was like, oh, I did you. Oh, I did that. I did that. Okay, thank you so much. It's nice to be reminded. Thank you. I can come around with you, Kemi, and just introduce you wherever you need introducing. So I will come with you to Australia if you like. Pack the bikinis. Yeah.

We were just talking before we started recording about how Kemi is heading back down under for the next series of I'm a celebrity. Congratulations. Thank you. Very exciting. And she was like, oh, it's so hard. I'm trying to find a bikini. Don't help me, Vic. Vick's like, yeah, we're preparing for winter.

Shed a tear for the girl who has to find a bikini. Oh, no, I'm going to be in the depths of summer in December. Someone pray for me. You know, I get it. They're not on sale at the moment. It's not that time of year, so it must be hard. It's really hard. Well, tell me about packing, because are you going to be packing any books?

This is a great opportunity to read. Well, the day that we've recorded this is so fantastic because literally a few hours ago, I've just ordered, I think about five books to take with me. And usually five books over six weeks. That's, that's nothing. That would take me a week. But because I'm quite busy and I'm doing work, it does take me a little while to get through books when I'm doing this job. Usually, like, I'm a holiday girl. I just want to sit there from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and I would just go through books. I love that. That's my main reading time. I'm not really a good, like, nighttime reader, reading a couple of pages a night. Like, I, it's like a toxic relationship. Like, I'm

all in and I'll do like five books in three days and everyone's like, are you okay? Your eyes like looks so strange. And then I won't read for like three weeks. It's a really weird one. So I've just ordered, I'm trying to get more into my fiction, which is brilliant that we're here today. I'm quite a non-fiction girl. Right. And sometimes life shouldn't be that serious. I just don't get lost in a tale, you know, I think I'm quite bad for just like, let me learn about this. I'm currently reading a book called Operation Mints Me and I thought it was going to be a fiction story. No, it's about the spies in World War II. And I'm just reading like dossiers. and documents so I'm like no

when I go away I actually want to read like some stories I actually picked up a recommendation that you recommended on this podcast all fours I've ordered that by Miranda July yeah yeah yeah so I heard you need you need to yeah I've heard you speaking about it and I was like I don't want to hear any more they don't hear any more so that's been on my book list

so they're all arriving in the next few days I'm so excited we had Joanne McNally on the podcast speaking about all fours and and she'll she'll sell it to you oh but that's so interesting so when you go on holiday usually are you you getting lost in a piece of nonfiction? Yes. And I know it's really weird.

Like, I don't know why. I don't, like, as a kid, I was very fiction, fiction, fiction, stories, let me get the master in worlds. As an adult, I tend to veer towards nonfiction. I think I really love to learn, like the history stuff is a passion I have, and I have no qualifications, babe, not even a GCSE in history. Like, I'm just interested. So I think that extends to when I'm looking for.

for things to read. It's like a really interesting thing that I don't know about. Oh, I'll get that. One of my books I did all of this morning was Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel, which I don't know why I haven't read it yet. You're in. I'm like, I've watched the TV series. But again, it's kind of like it is the history. So, you know, it's fictiony, non-fiction. Oh, well, we love historical fiction here on the podcast. And listen, if you're, yeah, exactly, if you're looking for some great novel recommendations, you are in the right place. But I love that it's a thirst for knowledge that kind of drives your reading. I like consistently learning. I think as we get older, we don't have the opportunity to soak stuff up, to learn as much as we used to, as much as we were encouraged to.

And it's a great feeling. Well, let's get lost in your books right now with your book shelfy picks. Your first is Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging. I made a classic. By Louise Rennerton, an absolute classic. It's the first book in the Confessions of Georgia Nicholson series written as a diary. It chronicles the misadventures of 14-year-old Georgia as she navigates the chaos of teens. teenage life, friendships, and her quest for a boyfriend. The story's driven by her insecurities,

relatable, dramatic teen angst and funny, often failed schemes to win his affection. It's such an iconic coming of age book. I love it. Why'd you pick it? I think we're a similar age. Did you read these books when you're a kid? Yes. Yes. Oh my God. All 10. I think there's 10 in the series. And it's just like, I think it's a bit like Bridget Jones but for teens and preteens because I find or I certainly found that a lot of like the book, I was always like a kid that loved reading. Like always, I was that person who was like, I'm on the blue sticker books.

And my father was like, shut up, get me, but like I really loved it. My mum would take me to the library and I'd get the maximum amount of books out. But when I found Angusong's Frontal Snocking and the whole Louise Renaissance series,

it spoke to me in a way that like, I just don't understand how any author who was not a 14 year old girl could have written that. And of course, if I wrote a book as a 14 year old girl now, it wouldn't be related, probably to 14 year old girls right now. But he don't remember, do you?

No, like the culture's different. But there was something, the way that she writes spoke to me and my kind of like, I felt like I was Georgia, like my friends always had like boyfriends and they were two-timing and three-timing and by lunchtime you'd have this boyfriend and I was always the messenger, right? Like, oh, can you tell this girl that I have a crush on her? Well, can you tell him that I liked his brother? You know, I felt like that person who was being overlooked.

I felt like the Olive at the party. so she somehow spoke to me in that really informal and understanding way and I guess like kind of made me feel like oh I'm not just weird there's other people who feel the same way and do the same embarrassing stuff and like doing like little embarrassing dances with my friends and having sleepovers and talking about boys oh my god boys we fancied boys were in bands like boys who were your English teachers at school that were just men who were not attractive but back when you were 14 years old you were like

oh my god my heart yearns for you there's a lot of hormones so much hormones i think like if you're the risk like a teenage girl there's nothing more powerful than a teenage girl who's infatuated and that a factuation can just be like the boy who's a couple of years older than you in school and so this book really i don't know it just really hit me in a moment when i was that age and it's actually a book i haven't i haven't really read in gods a very very long time obviously i've seen the movie, Angus Nong's and Perfect Snogging, which is kind of a blend of the first two books. I've seen that many a time. And I think the most recent time I watched it was maybe like two years ago. And it kind of like took me back. And also I'm from Eastbourne. I should

mention that. The book is based of Georgia who lives in Eastbourne and I am from Eastbourne. So especially, I remember when they were filming it and I was fuming when the movie came out, my mum was like, oh yeah, I saw them filming it down the seafront. Honestly, my knuckles went white with anger. And I was like, what? What do you mean? I could have been an extra. I didn't you say, Mom. I could have seen Aaron Taylor Johnson in the flesh. Are you serious? So the book just means something so special to me.

And it's obviously lovely to have that kind of like movie representation of it as well because I see my hometown in it. And it just reminds me of home as well. You said that the culture is different now. And you might not be able to remember how things were if you were safe to write an equivalent. But it feels like there's some quite universal themes. Like you mentioned, like being obsessed with boys, your hormones racing, the sleepovers, the gossip, the friendship. do you think, because you're in contact with Gen Z quite a lot through your job.

Yeah, that's true. Do you think that the trials and tribulations of young people are pretty similar to what they used to be, or is it a lot harder? Is it easier? I guess, and obviously I can't speak for them, but what I would say is I think general themes are the universal things we all go through, love, heartbreak, desire. There are obviously certain, like, external things that have changed. I think kids these days are like, and it's brilliant, but thinks,

so much more about the environment. I was having a conversation with someone who was, class is Gen Z, right? So this isn't even kids now. Like this, we're talking like from 20 to 27. She was like, God, yeah. When I was like 12, I used to just like cry about the environment all the time. Because it's such a, when we were having those conversations about the environment and stuff, and we were probably like teenagers and that really came around.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's something that kids are dealing with from such a young age. So I just think there are certain maybe worries in life that we didn't have on our plate. But then, you know, everything's different. We probably had different worries, you know. And obviously, we didn't grow up with TikTok. We had Bebo and Myspace and Facebook, which just feels so vintage to say. I sound like a right Nana.

But, you know. Not to me, Kenny. Thank you. Thank you. But obviously, there's a certain digital sphere that we're not ingrained in, like, two-year-olds now to work iPads. They can change the settings. Like, they can change the languages and the subtitles, and they can FaceTime their nan like that. So I think there's a certain element of, like, that.

that I'm not quite aware about but I think you're right that the general themes of life they are all in there and I think that's why those books are so brilliant and timeless like it would be lovely I don't actually know any 14 year old girls

in my family it's just I've got like boys and cousins but they're all kind of male but I just kind of wish there was like a girl I'm like the only grandchild the only niece that I could pass on these books because I would just love to see their reaction today you could give them to the boys too

I can give them to boys Especially not what everyone's going through. You said if you go back to 14-year-old, Kemi, you were sort of delivering the messages rather than like being too timed on or two time in. But what did life look like then? And can you remember your passions? Did you want to be a radio host then? No, I think.

Oh, no, 14, actually. You are right. That was the edge. That was a really pinnacle age. It was so weird. It wasn't 13. It wasn't 15. It was exactly 14 years old.

Right. And I was listening. And I remember the moment that it kind of clocked for me. It was, I was in the car. don't know where I was going to or from, but I was in the car, and I was listening to Zainlo on Radio 1 because he always had that evening show, right? And he was interviewing, I don't even know who, but he was interviewing a band who I thought were really cool. And I remember just saying to my mum, like, I want to do that. I want to be interviewing bands on the radio. Cool.

Just do that then. I'm just going to do that, I think, actually, if that's all right. And it's one of those ones where I just love, like, childhood naivety, because I didn't know anyone in the media. I didn't have, like, an uncle who worked at the BBC or in radio or anything. Just from that moment, And I was like, well, everything I do in life, that is going to be my absolute North Star. Everything I do now is going to be for that. So it was a really interesting one where it's the age that you're choosing your GCSEs, like your options, what you want to do. And of course, like, no one really knows at 14 what you want to do. And we all keep getting told and it's brilliant that, you know, we still have friends.

You and I have friends at the moment who still, they're pivoting and weaving what they do. But I was so dead set on being a radio presenter from that age. It was almost like a freakish obsession. So I was just so clear cut. So I think everything was thrown into career for a very young age. And at least I had like a drive and like a kind of purpose. The boy thing, I was still driven to like boys, but that wasn't going so well. So yeah, I just used to focus at school.

Like I never got detention. I remember I was a prefect, which just feels like, oh, I feel like a therapist could just like, you can just see through me at the moment. I got my nose ring in year 11. And I remember they were like, we're so. disappointed in you and I started rebelling against school um started making petitions against the school and stuff so I was quite like a little activist in my like last year I felt like I'd outgrown it um that's a good place to be when it's time to leave yeah you're ready I think I was so ready and you

see people and hear people oh god take me back to the school days no absolutely no oh you wouldn't pay me babes no there was a time and a place yes all the like uncertainty and spots no I'm I'm good being the age that I am now but it is nice to kind of like cast my mind back and think about 14 year old me and to think I wanted to do this and I'm doing it now. Yeah that's a real full circle moment I don't think I give myself like the grace

all the time to just like sit with that and just be like... Give yourself the credit. Yeah and just I think I need to like pop in like five minutes in the diary maybe just to sit in a room by myself, no phone and just think you've completed that circle which now leads me onto a brilliant point in life and I'm speaking about it this week

where I don't know what's next. You know when you have like such a big goal for like over half of your life and then you get to that point you're like okay what do I do now I'm a woman who likes goals I like to do list and to tick things off the pursuit is actually easier because you know what you're working towards yeah exactly you've got to recalibrate I need to recalibrate babes well I can tell you what we're moving towards right now we're moving towards your second bookshelfy book which is friends that invest by simrancore friends that invest is an inclusive guide to investing stocks and shares teaching the essential principles that can apply to any market anywhere in the world. Designed for those who

have felt intimidated by finance, this book has the goal of creating a supportive space and community for aspiring investors, highlighting how money offers freedom and security. Tell us about why you think this book is important. I actually don't own the book, but my friend, who was my former housemate, owned the book. So those three girls living together, and only moves out about two years ago. So this is a book that I've read in the last three years. My friend, she was like, I think you should read this book. I think you're going to really enjoy it. And I think it's really important because I feel so strongly about financial independence for everyone, but particularly for women, financial independence and financial stability. And you can choose to do

whatever you would like in life, but as long as you've got your own pot that is just yours and you don't have to work, you can work. It doesn't matter to me. But so long as you never trapped in a situation and you have the knowledge of what's going on around you because if you say investing I can say that to my group of girls on a bottom lunch brunch on a Saturday and they're like what in fact I told them I read this book and they said all right Martin Lewis and I was like what I was trying to tell them like guys it's actually just so easy so it's just the S&P 500 if you just put like how many percent all right Martin Lewis and I love them to admit these are my girls they've just been like my best friends from like day dot but it just kind of like oh it really kind of like

reinforce the language that sometimes I don't think, or certainly in the circles that I've gone in, there's not many people or not many women who are talking about investing to each other. It's so alienating. Oh my goodness. And it's been, and you know what really annoyed me when I read this book? I had tried to read quite a few bits of other literature about personal finance or investing. I start this open university investing course because I was like, I need to learn what's going on with my money. Like, I don't know what I'm doing here. At this point, I really wasn't earning like very, very much. I was just making rent and it was really like, am I going to have to leave London? And I was like, I'm going to take a grip on it. So I tried

reading quite a lot of literature. And it did kind of go over my head. It was all like assumed knowledge. Yeah. This book breaks it down so much. And I think in the opening chapter, it basically says, you're going to be really angry when you read this book because you're going to realize how easy it was all along and how the terms and language has just been dressed up to make you feel excluded and for you not to know what you're doing. And I am someone who math is really not my strong point. I'm not someone who has like a numbers brain and more of a word brain. So this was, when I read this book, my mind was blown.

Concepts that I'd found so confusing became clearer to me. I actually need to buy the book for myself to use it as reference because I read it. And I was like, this is just amazing. And my friend then passed it to the other friends in our house. And then she enrolled in like a female invest course. And I just thought, we are three women in London. You're living our like, you know, our sex and cities. Bridget Jones lives, our dating stories, we're rolling in at 3am in the morning, and we also

are now empowering ourselves to learn about finance. And I think it doesn't matter, it's like a sliding scale, it doesn't matter if you have one pound to invest a month. It doesn't matter if you have 10,000 pounds to invest a month. But just knowing that, I just think is so important. And I'm like, I'm telling my family about it, I'm telling my little brothers about it, I'm telling my mum about it. And I just found this really important. It just gave me a sense of like, I know how to do this. I don't have to ask someone else. And I just found that I'm a very independent person.

So that just like kind of solidified. I can do this like life thing, you know. Please do not come to me for financial advice, girl. But this book was a really good starting foundation, you know? And it's your freedom as a result of that, that female financial education and independence like you say. And you're right, it's not taught in schools. And you've got a question why, why we kept out of having that

freedom and that independence and who benefits from us being a little like unsure of what we're doing. I don't know. Exactly. It's just, I started listening to another podcast of the day. I won't name it, but it was talking about the suffragette movement and just, I got so angry. I had to listen to it and I will go back to it because I know it's really important. But we know the general themes, but it was saying like, I had to Google, sorry, when did women get the vote? And like, I think women over 30, you had property where it was 1918. And then I think all women over 21 was 1928, I'll have to fact check that, but that's, we're not 100 years away from that. That's less than 100 years ago. And like, obviously there's so many more incredible stats, like incredible

in the worst way, where divorce rates because you couldn't get divorced or I think it was until the 1970s where women had to get permission of a man to like open a bank account or get a mortgage or some of those big things. It boils my blood. So actually, when you say that, we're not too far away from that. So that was the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975, only 50 years. Yes. If we're thinking 50, 60 years where us as women, we couldn't own our own house or, you know, open a bank account or these things make me so angry. So actually, we're, no wonder the education hasn't quite got to us yet. You know, hopefully in another 50 years, it would just be common and it'll be standard. But we have to kind of seek out of information for ourselves at the moment.

Yeah, we have to keep making the change because progress is never won. We keep fighting. We keep moving. The author actually Simran, she posts amazing social videos, aren't she? some content about finance tips and making it accessible, which reminded me of your history of chemi videos. I didn't realize that you didn't have a background in history. I assume that you were applying knowledge that you had from, I don't know, a degree or something. So what made you want to start sharing your passion with your followers? It's really interesting because it's so rogue because

I do, you know, Capital Radio. It's very pop culture and I'm a sub on Pat, which is obviously out mainstream kind of entertainment TV and I've done a few other shows as well, which is on that. It's so left field for me to start doing history stuff, I felt really despondent actually about social media. That's why I started. And it was so weird. It's probably about a year ago. And I was really like in that whole schism of trying to get more followers. And at this point, I wasn't doing any TV. And the whole conversation I was having with, you know, peers, agents, whatever, get those social numbers up. And people start to notice you. And I just got really annoyed with the Vic. I just was fuming. And I was like, hate that everything I'm doing or I'm

out or every caption that I'm trying to do is for someone else's for an audience. And I was already going to like national trust places or crumbling castles. And I was like, do you know what? I might just make a little fun video about that little fact about this. And I actually did one in my hometown. I did it on Pevency Castle. I didn't have a microphone so the wind is blowing and you can't really hear what I'm saying. And from filming to editing it to put it up, I genuinely said that's, I enjoyed all of that. Oh, it's nice to like it. I just really liked it all. loved it. It wasn't for anyone because I didn't think anyone would like it, pay attention

to it or enjoy it. So I was like that's the first thing I think I've done in a really long time on socials, by the way, like obviously I love my radio, that I really like and I just want to keep sharing it. And the comments were, my goodness, I didn't care about history when I was in school. Like, oh God, if you were my teacher, maybe I would have listened. It was like little encouraging comments like that.

And I thought, well, if it's me and a few people in my comments who quite like it, then I'm going to keep them coming. And I genuinely really enjoy it. As I said, like I have a thirst for knowledge. And sometimes I think that history is really important, but it can be so boring. And I think a lot of the people who kind of are our historians, when you think of a historian, just imagine someone.

We're all imagining the same type of person and what they look like. Need I say less? And sometimes I think I just want to make it a bit more casual, relatable, informal. There's some brilliant content creators out there who are, you know, historians like NextGen who are doing a similar thing. They're very like, you know, can be rude with it. But I just thought, well, why not bring someone like a fact? I think social media can be just so like Instagram bodies, Instagram bodies, Instagram bodies.

And it's quite nice to just bring something else. So I enjoy it. No, do something that you love. And it shines through as well. People will love it because of that. Yeah. Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Baileys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Kebby, let's talk about the third book that you've brought today,

which is one of my favourites, is Three Women by Lisa Todayo. Three Women is a raw and empathetic look into female desire and its complex nature. It's based on nearly a decade, of immersive reporting, the book profiles Lena, Maggie and Sloan, through whom Taddeo examines themes of intimacy, secrecy, and modern relationships. I mean, just the fact that it is written like it's fiction, but it's not.

Oh my goodness, that bamboozles me. When I was like, halfway through the book I was a hang about, no, this is surely a story. This is a story and it's nonfiction. I don't know how you felt, I felt immediately like, actually, first page, there's a first opening chapters and she's talking about her mom in Italy, I felt like I've been punched in the gut. And I just felt like that repeatedly for the rest of the book and it's quite a long book. And I think it's probably like the first book that I've read that I was like, oh my God, because as I say, I like dealing in nonfiction, which this is, but in my mind, I don't

know what it is. It's just written like a fiction. I know what you mean. It's beautiful. It's literary and it can be. Yes. So when I got the book, I thought it was a fiction. right and I before then I like just wrapping myself up in cotton wall and reading nice books about nice things funny books they all get together in the end and it's all really funny and I think this was a real turning point for me where I read a book that was so just like poignant and somehow with just these three women have encapsulated like just the different themes and things that we've all had to deal with and like I kind of like that as being punched in the stomach not because I liked what any of these women were going through but it was just a oh my

my goodness, like the way that Lisa Today is like written these three women and all their intricacies and all their desires and just the way everything plays out in these three very different tales. But like somehow, oh, actually, and it's annoying for a podcast, it kind of leaves me like speechless. We can just be silent for a little bit. Let's just have a moment of silence for today. I think gut punch is a really good way of putting it. I'd really agree with that. The resonance and the recognition of perhaps not the exact situations of these women had been in, but the way they were made to feel, the way they were either manipulated or exploited or how they were negotiating their own desires.

I think it's a really important book. And when I read it, I actually loaned it to a friend. And I was like, I gave it a bit of a warning. I was like, this will punch you in the gut. So I'm recommending because I think it's one of the best and brilliant books that I've ever read in my entire life. And I think it's really important that as many women, and actually everyone can read it, but just a warning.

And actually, I still haven't got it back. And I think I learned it to her every year ago. Sorry, I just saw the real life. Yeah, sorry. Oh, hang on, I haven't got that back. If this was a library, how much interest could I charge? No, I have the finances coming in. There we go.

I think she'd messaged me and said she'd read the first chapter and was like, I just need to put this down. And that's okay because sometimes I feel like we can read things that sometimes a little bit too confronting and sometimes you've got to be in the right space for a book. I've abandoned books because I'm like, not now, but another time I'll deal with that. Totally. Because it is difficult themes. Sometimes you can read something and it just is not for you right then and you come back to it at a different time in your life and it is so right. think this is the beautiful thing about books as well because there's things I've seen that have been adapted for stage or for screen and you can't turn away. And actually sometimes I'll get to a point

in a book and I need to stop. I need to put it down so I can process it. But you can't do that when it's been kind of put on for you. Yeah. In front of your eyes. But you can read at your own pace and that's actually a really special thing. And I think the beauty with books is like you get every nuance. You get every detail. You can absorb that. I will read over a line again and again and And again, I'm quite a fast reader. And so that means sometimes I do skim read a little bit. Like, I'll see it. But sometimes, like, something will just floor me.

And I'm like, no, no, no. Let me go back to that. Oh, my goodness. And I like that. Like you say, when you're watching a film or a stage show, it's just all happening. You miss that. It's gone. You can't, you can't turn to someone and be like, oh, my God, that bit.

Okay, what does that men mean? And then continue. And I think that's the brilliant thing about this. And I just think, yeah, this book in particular, I think, is like a massive recommend. We're three women, actually, because as women ourselves, our experiences will impact how we read each of these women's experiences. You need to take a second. We all need to process it differently. We'll all interpret it differently. Yeah. The stories are, they're really raw. They're really personal. As a broadcaster, I'm really interested whenever I meet any other broadcaster, do you think that that kind of honesty is what really connects with listeners? How comfortable do you feel being honest with your audience? or do you try to retain some professional distance?

That is really interesting. And I think we may have different answers on that. Not because one, we're two different people, but two, we work for two different broadcasts as well. So I worked for Capital and you've obviously worked for Capital before. And it is very good time, which is brilliant. And the kind of ethos is anyone could be having all manner of shit that's going on with their life, you know.

And so maybe you want to turn on the radio a little bit. bit of escapism. You're on the drive to home from work where you've just had a really bad day and we want to give you some good music and good vibes. So actually, I would say that I'm honest when things are either funny or peculiar or might make someone laugh. That's when I'm honest about it. But I will say when I'm not having a good time, I won't, I won't share that on the radio just because I'm trying to, one, it's nice to fake until you make it. So if I'm fake and being happy and jovial, then often I do feel better by the end of the show. It's a lot of the show. It's so weird.

No, it's an amazing thing. Which is really lovely. So, yeah, I won't come on and kind of talk about, you know, my woes or anything. But when I'm happy or there's something going on, I will kind of then share that. Yeah, it's a really nice balance. But there is a bit of, I don't know, distance. But then doing a podcast like with you, it's very short form radio. This is a long conversation.

And so you can tell a bit deeper, whereas when you've got about a minute in between like Taylor Swift and Serena You can't jamming. And by the way, I went through this. Let me talk about my thoughts and feelings. No, I, yeah, I worked at Capitol. I was there for three years and totally understand exactly where you're coming from because our job was to lift people up, whatever kind of day they're having. And so you take that job very seriously.

I'm going to do that. And actually, probably my problem was, I was sometimes too honest. Even though he's a brilliant broadcaster. But that's what makes you're a brilliant broadcast. And I'm not saying one's right and the other's not right. It's, I guess sometimes there's like, there'll be moments when I do want to share and moments when I don't and maybe I'm trying to find the balance. Maybe I should put a bit more of myself in.

No, do exactly what you're doing because you're doing it so well. Thank you. It's working. Oh, thanks, honey. Let's talk about your fourth book, Shelby book now, which is the Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion. Oh, that just brought the mood. Yeah, sorry.

A smile. It's a beautiful piece of literature. Didians, 2014. memoir recounts the year following the sudden death of her husband John Gregory Dunn while their daughter was simultaneously suffering from a life-threatening illness. Didion applies her renowned journalistic precision to her own grief, creating a raw and unflinching look at loss. Using the term magical thinking to describe her own psychological state, Didion shares a period of heartbreaking, irrational belief that she could reverse the course of events or that her husband

might still return. Now tell us a little bit about when you first read this and also just what it means to you i read this really recently really recently i'm going to say in the last two months and it was just because i have a note on my phone of any time someone's like you should read that i'll be like cool thank you i'll add to my notes and it's such an old list of notes some stuff i'm like i don't want to read that but i'll just always note it down it was on my list and so i i just bought it because i think again i was probably going on a holiday or doing this big I like to big batch my books. So I'll get like seven at a time

and then I'll put them on my bookshelf and then I'll take them out as and when. So it's really interesting and I'm really glad I read this now and not for example like a couple of years ago. It was really interesting. It's quite a small book. So I did get through it quite quickly.

I read it in a period of my life where I actually felt affected by what she was saying, not because I've had, I've lost a partner or anything, but because I now have a partner who I'm like, oh my goodness, I think I might spend the rest of my life

with you and what she's describing here is I cannot imagine that happening I don't want that to ever happen I've always been like very single like single girl if I'd have read it then I would my heart would have gone out to her but I don't think I could have put myself in her position I think reading it when you have a special someone in your life oh my goodness it terrified me I finished the book and I remember because I like it's one of those books you just don't want to put down and my partner was asleep in bed next to me and I literally like got out a notepad found a pen and I just wrote pages and pages and pages of like why I love this man so much. Oh, Kelly.

Honestly, he still doesn't know this. He probably will know this when he listened to this. No, it wasn't to give to him. I don't even know what. It was like a diary entry. Like, dear diary, I love him so much. No, but I just felt like it was one of those books where it made you feel you really want to hold the people you love really close.

And she is obviously an incredibly intelligent woman because she's bringing thesis in and she's talking, she's hiring books and she's trying to understand. And she's kind of trying to like think her way out of grief almost because I guess it's not a plot spoiler, but her husband has some sort of cardiac incident. And she's then, you know, buying books to try and understand, well, what could have happened and what happens in those moments between life and death and, well, if he was pronounced dead at this time, then what should I have done the hours before then? And there's parts of her where she's just relaying it. And she's like, so I could have maybe brought him back. And I think he will come back. So I won't get rid of his shoes.

and I'll leave his desk exactly the way it was. And she's reading about grief and the different stages of grief as if she's not the one going through it. And I think, of course you would. If you have just lost your husband when your daughter is in hospital with a really grave illness and you don't know whether she's going to pull through or not, I cannot even imagine the mental state that you would have to go through. And she attacks it with basically intelligence. And that's her way of coping.

And I think everyone will cope in various. different ways to awful things that will happen in our lives and the fact she's documented this and I don't even, is she documenting it for herself? Is she documenting it for others? I actually don't know because she's so like, she's almost detached and she has like a really like kind of dry wit. There's a moment where she's talking about when she goes in the ambulance, gets to the hospital where they're treating her husband but obviously she realizes her husband has already passed, the receptionist says something or the paramedic says something that's along the lines of like, oh, she's the good widow or she's the all right one or she's the calm widow or something

like that and she references that like, oh, what would the calm one say? And I just think to be able to detach yourself from like the worst moment in your life and write about it in a way that like makes us yearn and feel so much is such a talent. And it genuinely flawed me. It really flawed me. And I was like, I've never read a book about grief before. It's always been something I think I've been really afraid of. You know, I read the blurb of any book when I'm picking it up. I'm like, shall I read this? And it's like so and so loses so and so. And I'm like, no, thank you. It's just my stick my head in the sand. I don't want to deal with bad things that are happening in the world kind of vibe. So actually this one, I'm glad I've read it because actually even though the overwhelming story is about physically she loses a husband, it's about love.

It's a love story. Oh my goodness, that kind of love. And she's noting details. We went for dinner here and we drove up this. And obviously they're both writers. So like she'd note how she needed his comments to be able to finish a piece of work. And just the tiny, tiny, tiny things in life that aren't the big ground gestures, but that's love. And that's why it made me want to write an essay.

I'm like, why, I love my boyfriend. But, like, that's the feelings. I'd never had a book that evoked so many feelings that I literally had to act on them the moment I finished the page. I didn't know what to do with myself. I should have just gone to bed, but I couldn't. And I think that's a really special and a really powerful book. And people would have had different experiences reading this book.

Obviously, lost as a common thread of life. And everyone would have their different dealings with it. So it's really important to me because it just evoked that kind of feeling from me. You said in your notes that it's the realization that grief is the price we pay for love and I've always whenever I've lost anyone had to remind myself that when I've loved someone so much how lucky to have had that love to give and now it has nowhere to go and that's why it's sore because it's getting pooling in my eyes and it's it's blocking my throat and that's why I feel that way because I got to love so deeply how lucky am I and sometimes

a book will help you find the words to express that and like you say you're such a um um happy person, it's literally your job to be upbeat and happy. So you don't necessarily want to immerse yourself in something that feels negative, but realizing that it's actually a very positive thing because it makes you think about love is beautiful. Yeah, I think that's it. Sometimes, like, I need to not be so, like, one-sided that everything's like joy and happy and yay, and let's read books that are fun and let's listen to podcasts that are fun. And I won't watch any horrors or bad movies.

I won't even watch romance movies. It has to be rom-com because I can't have, like, I've never watched the note. book or any of these books or any of these movies where it's scared of feeling sad no that's fair it's fair and i get it like genuinely like i just don't want to feel sad i just don't want to have it feel sad and i and so sometimes that is lovely because you know sometimes you don't want to be in the mood to like read something sad you want you you want books that will bring you joy or tv shows that bring you joy but i genuinely like don't watch horror don't watch anything that's really actiony don't want to see blood don't see fights don't want to see loss that is going to bite me in the

bum one day because I don't know I feel like this book is like the introduction to like huh okay maybe you should start like foraying into books that tell a darker side of life and actually I recently read Shuggy Bain and I think that's one of my favorite books ever and again that's a theme of like whoa that's really heavy so beautifully written so heartbreaking but an incredibly beautiful and important book and I think this is I may be just about now turn in the corner where I'm like I can read books that give the whole I don't know what the word is but like the whole variety of life you know the whole human experience that's it that's it yeah we're allowed to explore these facets of ourselves but it's also okay to want to be happy

just really want to be happy so much very understandable what about music do you do you find yourself gravitating towards a happy music because this is your job yes or do you yeah yeah and it's only ever like when I've like been in like a breakup or something really bad that I will from my Adele but yeah it's I actually I have playlists for like every mood I've got a playlist literally called to cry to this playlist and I haven't listened to it in a very very long time I won't like force myself to like listen to something if I'm not in that mood so I've obviously been just very lucky I'm touching wood at the moment this luckily this room is made of wood this whole room is wood fantastic um beautiful shed you've got here so I have just been immersing myself

in like happy music like yeah everything's kind of happy on capital everything. And as I say this, I'm like, I feel like I need to just immerse. After I leave here, I'm going to listen to some Adele and cry or something. But yeah, I think where everything in my life is so, like, happy, it would feel. And maybe it's why these books in particular, just like, wow, they like hit me in my core a little bit more because so much of my life, it's like, bubblegum, it's job, it's jazz hands, you know. Well, see how happy this fifth and final bootshelfy book is. It's the Nightingale. Oh, Christ.

Like Kristen Hannah. I'm a person, but my book choice is really, wow. A historical fiction novel set in Nazi-occupied France during World War II. The Nightingale follows the parallel stories of two sisters, Vian and Isabel Rosignolle, and their distinct approaches to resistance and survival. Both women face horrific choices and dangers, showcasing their different forms of courage and resilience,

as they fight for survival, love, and freedom. We keep saying it because these themes go hand in hand that they're heavy with the things that we fight for. Who would you recommend this book to? I recommend this book to literally everyone. And the thing is, some of the books I've spoken right today, they're very like, I wouldn't just recommend it to anyone. I've had friends who aren't typical readers, but, you know, so they're not like, I need books all the time, but they might be like, oh, I'm going on holiday. Maybe I'll take a book with me. And this is definitely. definitely a book that I've recommended because, yes, I know on the face of it, it's like war

and like the terrible things that people are going through in war, which is so true, but it's a brilliant story. So it's a fiction book, but I believe the author was inspired by a few different women and kind of like put them into these two characters. I just love the kind of two sisters who are going through the same thing. They're both in France in World War II. Now, I don't know about you, but a lot of like literature that I've certainly found is very like, especially when I'm reading, as I say, like literally today, Operation Mincemeat, which is about the British army and what the Brits were doing in the war. And what was it like in either Germany or England? I've never actually immersed myself in anything that was from the viewpoint of a French person who was living

in that war. So it was a very different, I felt it was kind of a different approach really because their land was just kind of taken and it's how these two sisters respond to things and you've kind of got the headstrong one who wants to join the resistance and like be that person I want to fight kind of young and plucky and then you've kind of got the older one who's got a child and a husband is a bit more responsible

and it's really interesting because they're not quite seeing how strong the other one is they're like and I won't give plot spoilers but the young plucky one is thinking my older sister doesn't do anything she's just sleeping with the enemy blah blah blah and you realize what this older sister, when I say older sister, it's probably like 25 and, you know, the other one's 20. She is going through for the amount, like just trying to keep her family alive. The quiet resistance that she has to do almost flawed me more than the younger sister who's going off and like delivering secret messages and, you know, like being locked up and all that kind of stuff.

I just had so much sympathy for people who had to kind of live life as normal as they could but dealing with these really difficult themes I realise you asked me who did I recommend it to and I've just explained just the whole entire book but this is why I recommend it to everyone because we're getting a recommendation yeah so basically I'm going to tell you what the book is all about

but no I just think it's a brilliant story it's just a brilliant story and it has lots of twist turns and it's one of those books where you know the last couple of pages it will give you like a bombshell and you're like what bookends and you're like whoa I want more yeah I love a book and it doesn't often happen things often like wrap up neatly or it's just sad or whatever but you know in the last two pages of this like big book the last two pages just gives you a twist it's got a book with twists and which I think is really like if you just like stories it's gripping you can you can kind of like I don't know get into this book as as deep as you want or as surface as you want On the surface, it's just a really gripping tale and it's got action, it's got love, it's got sacrifice, and it's got twists. So if that's just, if you're like, great, those words stand good with me, I'll read it.

But then obviously you can go a bit deeper and it's like, you know, based on the history that actually happens, you can go a lot deeper with it. So that's why I recommend it to everyone. It's got something for everyone. Well, we talked at the beginning about your thirst for knowledge. Yes. And you're a huge history fan. So a piece of historical fiction like this is a story as a vehicle through which you can learn like you're saying. You learned about France during this period.

Can art and fiction be a vehicle for us to educate ourselves? Absolutely. And I think I'm really realising that now. I'm not watching a lot of like historical stuff on TV. And it's so funny because like you'll Google the program and there'll be articles from certain like TV shows being like historian debunks this TV show what they got wrong in the first five minutes. And I'm like, oh, stop it.

I love watching something. reading something, pausing it, put my book down and being like Googling, did this actually happen? Did that actually happen? Did this actually happen? Or like, especially in the Nightingale, like, did these things actually happen? And then you go off and find the knowledge. So although, yes, you shouldn't take everything as this exactly happened the way it was told in this story, I think it's a brilliant way to kind of like get us interested in in these things that maybe did or maybe did not happen. Some things are dramatized and then you've Google, Oh, that actually didn't happen, but this did happen.

And I was watching a series of my boyfriend, who like is into history, but wasn't like mentally into history. And he was like, oh my God, this is so good. Wait, did that actually happen? And I remember we finished this series. And I was literally like, I think he was on the toilet and I was shouting through the door. So actually, this king did do this, but it was his brother that got exiled. And he's like, what? And I just love that.

Like, I think we wouldn't have had that conversation if we hadn't immersed in a piece of like art or storytelling. So I do love, and I think maybe I need to read a bit more like historical fiction because even though it's fiction and it will give me a great tale, it will kind of immerse me in something else that maybe I wasn't aware about. Well, The Nightingale shows, like you said, how stories can inspire us, how can they can inspire hope in the reader. So I'd like to finish by asking you what gives you hope? Because at times the world can feel like a pretty dark place,

but there is light and you're at the forefront of, you know, bringing light to people. Yeah, I think. people give me hope that probably sounds like one of those misworld questions like what brings you hope I think people and hope that that's the right answer but I genuinely think and the reason I say that is because I love getting to chat to people getting to talk to people whether it's you know usually it's through like a phone call if you're listeners he gets to chat to listeners on the radio and I love that and everyone's got such brilliant stories I'm very lucky in my job that I do get to talk to a lot of people whether it's on air or whether it's like I'll get to work with lots of different people

because there's lots of people who work with the same team in the same office or whatever they do every single day but the brilliant thing and I guess you'll find it too you'll be doing this but you'll be doing something else next week and we're working with different teams and different productions and you'll be in taxis every single day with different people from different walks of life and the chats that I get to have with various different people every single day I love so much so I think that gives me hope because I think there's a lot of divisiveness And I guess it could be quite easy when you're scrolling your phone to think there's a camp of people who think this

and a camp of people who think that. But actually when you actually speak to a lot of people in life, there's so many people in between. And I think when things do get divisive and horrible, that's what you have to kind of hold. And that's what I hold. That actually people are on the most part, lovely and understanding.

And you can actually get on. I just think I try not to lean into the polarizing aspect that we often find online. Radio is absolutely community. I mean, yes, it's there to uplift, but it's also a reminder. I always think that's why I love it so much. It's reminded that you're not alone.

And we always worry, oh, is Spotify and playlisting going to take over? But no, radio will always be there because it's so immediate, it's so interactive, and it connects you. Yeah, I love it. I don't know if you've ever tried it, the Spotify DJ button.

Oh, my God. Listen, listen. I have my thoughts. For anyone who's not tried it yet, Just give it a go and it basically pulls a playlist of all your stuff, but you have a DJ. I don't know why. It's an AI voice. It's an AI Bronx.

Yo, I pulled a playlist. I heard you like Cardi B. And I'm like, okay, that's great. But I listened to it. I was like, what even is this? And I think the brilliant thing about radio is when I'm on my, I'm at home on my own, doing whatever, making lunch, like doing errands, I'll always stick on the radio rather than the playlist. Because I like hearing people's voices and then you'll hear like a caller into a show.

They'll tell the most wild story. then I'll repeat to my friends later on. And I like the texting aspect, the shout-out aspect. It does make you feel like you are genuinely not alone. And I think that is why, I remember what TV came out, right? And they're like, well, what was it? Video Killed, the radio star. It's still here, baby.

It's still here. We're still going. Like a cockroach in the nuclear wall. Radio. Kemi, my final question to you is let's go through your list of five books that you brought today, your bookshelfy picks. Yeah. If you had to choose one from that list as a favourite, what would it be in why?

That's really tough. Okay, immediately, I think I'm going to go for my year of magical thinking. And the reason it was between that and three women, but I actually think I want to focus on the good, you know? Three women is like very important, but it's like, oh, this is a little depressing. Whereas actually, even though your own Judean book is about death, it's actually. as I say it's about love and it's about I essentially feel like a voyeur into like a beautiful relationship like I'm reading the pages and reading the details of a beautiful love story and I think if I could only read one book I think it would be that one because it just makes you realize it's so

important to love and be loved and just be abundant in your love and don't be ashamed about it and like note all the details of your love so I think that's a lovely theme so I think I'm going to choose that one. And on that note, which I think is a great mantra for us to live by, we have loved having you on. Thank you so much, Kemi. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks to having me on. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Price for Fiction, Boot Shelfy podcast. Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women.

See you next time.