Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep18: Bookshelfie: Alice Loxton

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Presenter and author Alice Loxton discusses how fiction can help us understand the past – particularly when it comes to women’s stories; finding humour in classic literature; and her companionship with figures from history. Alice is passionate about bringing history to mainstream, younger audiences, and she has over three million followers on social media, where her videos educate on British history, heritage and art. She has worked with many organisations including 10 Downing Street, The Royal Academy, English Heritage, The National Gallery, Tate, BBC, ITV, and Microsoft, and she writes about history for publications including The Times, Telegraph and Spectator. She’s an ambassador for the National Trust, a mentor for The King’s Foundation 35 Under 35 Network, and a patron of The British Pilgrimage Trust.  Alice’s book Eighteen: A History of Britain in 18 Young Lives was a Sunday Times bestseller and Blackwell’s Book of the Year 2024. Her new book, Eleanor: A 200-Mile Walk in Search of England’s Lost Queen, sees her follow in the footsteps of Eleanor of Castile’s funeral procession, bringing to life the formidable character of this lesser-known royal.   Alice’s book choices are: ** Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen ** Secret Voices by Sarah Gristwood ** Through England by Side Saddle by Celia Fiennes ** The Tower by Flora Carr ** Hamnet by Maggie O’Farrell Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize’s Bookshelfie Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is the biggest celebration of women's creativity in the world and has been running for over 30 years.  Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. I have long explored Stratford-upon-Avon, and I've been to William Shakespeare's house, and I had never, I'd never seen it in the way that I had seen it when I read that book.

It transformed forever, probably, how I think about Shakespeare's family and his childhood. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction Bookshelfy podcast, supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's for fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list. Today I'm joined by Alice Lockstone. Alice is a history presenter and author who is passionate about bringing history to

mainstream younger audiences. She has over 3 million followers on social media where her videos educate on British history, heritage and arts. She's worked with many organisations, including 10 Downing Street, the Royal Academy, English Heritage, the National Gallery, Tate, BBC, ITV and Microsoft, and she writes about history for publications including The Times, Telegraph and Spectator. She's an ambassador for the National Trust, a mentor for the King's Foundation 35 under 35 network, and a patron of the British Pilgrimage Trust. Alice's book, 18, a history of Britain in 18 young lives, was a Sunday Times bestseller and Blackwell's book of the year 2024.

Her new book, Eleanor, a 200-mile walk in search of England's lost queen, sees her follow in the footsteps of Eleanor of Castile's funeral procession, bringing to life the formidable character of this lesser-known royal. Alice, welcome. It's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. It's such a joy to be here. Thank you for having me. And I'm just going to say, as well, in front of her, Alice has one of her books in glorious hardback, which I was just saying I love because I love the sound that it makes.

When you open and close a hardback on the mic. Oh. ASML. Book ASMR. If you know, you know. Alice, as both a historian and an author, how do you balance reading for pleasure and reading for research? Or do you balance it at all? It's such a good question.

The way that I approach it, because I have to read books all the time and I often review books. And when I'm writing my books, I'm always reading books which I could have possibly read for pleasure. So there is a blurred lines. But I try and read a nonfiction book and a fiction book and I have them going at the same time. Okay. Or at least alternate them. And I feel like both are really, really good for my history writing actually. You know, I think reading fiction books, like I read the Safekeep earlier this year,

They really inform the history writing as much as the non-fiction. I also read the safety, obviously the winner of the Air 2025 Women's Prize for Fiction. Absolutely stunning book if you haven't read it. But do you find when you're reading fiction that you have to sort of consciously switch off the historian part of your brain? Because not everything's going to be factually correct. And that's fine in fiction. Sort of. I suppose it depends which era.

It's the same, people often ask me this about TV drama and historical films. But from what I can see, a lot of writers who do historical fiction are pretty good at thinking about the accuracy. I was interviewing Philippa Gregory the other day, the wonderful writer whose books filled my teenage years, and she's got a new book out, Berlin Traitor. And I was seriously impressed with her explanation of her process. her research, her understanding of these historic periods. And of course she would have that, you know, she's written so many books and thought about it for decades now.

So I think when it comes to historic fiction, I've found that people are less likely to take massive leaps that are implausible or inaccurate. And what do you love to read when it is technically pleasure? I mean, obviously, like you say, there's always a story to be driven from any, bit of history and vice versa? Well, I would say probably my guilty pleasure would be something like the other

Bling girl and all the Philippa Gregory books, you know. And I say that as a historian because it seems a bit cliche because the Berlin's always talks about and the Tudors are like the classic thing that everyone loves. But I, you know, they are amazing stories and they're so amazingly brought to life by so many of these writers. It's something that I probably will always go back through throughout my life. But I think it's actually marrying the fiction always with the nonfiction that really brings things to life for me.

And I think fiction plays such an important role in our understanding of the past. And so often it can fill in the gaps where we don't have the sources. And often the fewer sources that exist, the more important the fiction is. So they have their own roles. Well, not everyone's stories have been told on paper, but everyone has them. Sure. There are so many more stories to be written. Sure.

And we are restricted in nonfiction to write stories, you know, if there are no sources that exist, which is the case for most women in the medieval period at least, and throughout history. But in the medieval period, and I found this with my book 18, I was trying to have a good selection of figures throughout history, men and women. In the medieval period, it's really, really hard to write about women, young women who aren't just royalty. You know, the women that we have will be like Eleanor of Castile, Enna of Aquitaine, Margaret of Anjou, all of these women are, you know, fascinating characters, but they have come from a very, very unusual position of privilege, and they often have the same sort of upbringing, and then they've been brought up in a European court and then come over to England and marry the future king, which is fascinating, but it's one version of women's lives. And so fiction is a particularly useful tool when we're looking at. at many periods of history for women, I think. Well, let's delve into the stories that you have loved, into the books that you have loved throughout your life. Your first book, Shelby book, is Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen.

Northanger Abbey was written around 1797, but was not published until 1817 after Jane Austen's death. Originally titled Susan, the novel follows Catherine Morland, the 17-year-old daughter of a country clergyman, who is now in training for a heroine, leaving her village home to enjoy a season in Bath Catherine embarks on a series of adventures encountering romance, friendship, fashion and social ambition

can you remember when you first read this? So I think I read this when I was about 11 years old and I had always been someone who loved history I've always, it's just always been a passion I've always had this fascination with the past whether it's visiting historic locations watching historic dramas on TV whether it's reading fiction, nonfiction, whatever it might be.

And I think I had this view of the Georgian age as perhaps how we might, I suppose, a very an age of politeness, you know, thinking about taking a turn around the room, that sort of thing. And what I absolutely adored about Northanga Abbey was that it showed a side of silliness and of fun. And, you know, it is a satire of the gothic genre. and I just found that such a joy at that age. And it's also about a young woman. You know, it's a kind of coming-of-age novel.

So, yeah, it just, I found it a great delight. And I think at that young age, being able to read what was considered a kind of classic work of literature, I felt probably a great achievement. And, you know, I felt it was like a grown-up book that I was reading. So that's always stuck with me. He said you'd always loved history. Had you always been a big reader as well growing up, you know, you were 11 at the time reading this? Yes, I read a lot of. Ed Blyton books when I was very young. I read all the horrible history books. But I think

it's very interesting today when we talk about Y.A. And we talk about adult books, you know, the difference between all these books. Because when I was a child, I was definitely reading quite a lot of adult books. And I've been asked to write YA sometimes. And I don't know. Somehow, you know, I often think about young girls, especially just from my own experience. And I'm sure it's the same with some boys as well. But, you know, girls who are children who are good at reading can read all sorts of amazing books that lots of adults might read as well. So, but, you know, that's a side note. But yeah, I was reading a lot. And, you know, the first book that I wrote was called Uproar. And it was all about 18th century satire. Yeah. And it was all

about the silliness of the Georgian world and actually at time of great life and laughter and satire. And so I often think, is it, is it a coincidence? It seems that that is a thread that is common that has been stretched out, that one book that very much inspired me was this book about satire in the 18th century. You found something that you loved and it all kicked off from there. It is sort of, I guess, seen as one of Austin's, can we say, lighter novels. But do you think that light feeling is actually part of the novel's brilliance and its impact? Yeah, I think so.

I mean, for me it definitely was. And it's not just because it's short. easier to read. It's just this insight into the mind of somebody like Jane Austen, who I had a perception of incorrectly that she was sensible and her writing was serious. And I think we often get that. Or lots of people have that when they think about people in the past, perhaps because of the clothing that they're wearing or the language that they're using. Of course, people in the past, and this is something I really try and do in my books, is bring people to life in the past and just make people realize they're just as is live and just as, you know, have all the same concerns

and passions and fears and joys as people today. But I think I got a sense of that from this book and I just, I found it hilarious that she was making these jokes. I think there's a moment in it where Catherine sees a chest in the room that she's sleeping in and in classic Gothic style. She's like, oh, what is in the chest, you know, what could it be as it would be like in a horror movie, you know, and then she opens it and there's just nothing in it, you know. It's just It's just all in our mind, and it's a complete spoof of those kind of traits that we see in horror movies today. Well, talking of that seriousness that we so often assume about anything concerning the past when actually there is lightness, there is hilarity. Jane Austen's work is so often encountered on English literature syllabuses, so when, you know, you're having to study something at school, and we make that association, which isn't necessarily fair.

So what would you say to encourage someone who hasn't read Northanger Abbey yet to give it a go for pleasure rather than a school exam? I think it's funny. You know, it's just a funny book to read. I don't think it's taxing to read, really. And I think it's very accessible. And, I mean, I'd always say this that just, I think sometimes people think they have to read and then have big thoughts about everything and, you know, come away and be able to discuss it a lot. I think you can read it. If you don't enjoy it, it doesn't really matter.

You might enjoy it later. There's a value to reading something, and the experience continues after you finish reading. You might have conversations with other people. You might see a version of it in a play, and it might come back to you in different ways. So, you know, all of these journeys that we have with these books, I think they are lifelong,

and I'm sure I'll come back to North Angra Abbey many times and revisit it. And maybe the second time you read it, you're not so sure. But definitely when I first read it, it stuck out for me. And I think it's good to sometimes read books that you don't gel with because then it clarifies why you like the books you do like. So I think it's never wasted. I think that's a really great permission for us to give people, to give anyone listening right now. You don't have to like it.

And you don't hear that enough. Yeah, you don't have to. But you're right, your journey continues with it. And we always talk on this podcast about the time. that you've read a book and it didn't hit you, you've gone back to it because your life has changed, you've changed, you've experienced something and all of a sudden it resonates. So that may happen, or you know what, it might. It might be a plot. Well, my journey with North Angrabby has resulted in me writing a book about Saturn in the 18th century. You know, I have written a book

and that is a continuation in my mind of that reading. So you never know where it will take you. You never know. Well, I know where we're taking ourselves now. We move on to our second bookshelfy book, which is Secret Voices by Sarah Gristwood, which is sitting in your lap right now. It's the book that made that gorgeous sound at the beginning, described as a modern classic. Secret Voices is a collection of daily extracts from women's diaries, looking back over four centuries to discover how women's experience of men and children and sex and shopping and work and the natural world has and hasn't changed through the years. Tell us why you chose this one.

So I get sent lots of books to review, and this was one of them. But it really, really stood up to me as an absolute gem. And I think a modern classic is interesting. They've said that because it only came out last year or something. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's a fair assumption. And it's presented in this really beautiful format, which it's kind of got, it's a big kind of thick, heavy hardback.

And it's got this ribbon, this orange. So the cover is dark green. And then it's got this orange ribbon between the pages. And the way it's presented reminded me of the books you might find in a church, right? It looks like a kind of biblical book, I think. It's the kind of book you might read from in church, and it's got this kind of orange font.

I just think it's very cleverly done. And I think that sits true for me when you think about what this book is about. What it is, is every day of the year has a series of quotes from women's diaries. And so this is not really a book that you read cover to cover. It's a book that you dip into. It's a book that you return to.

in moments of joy, in happiness or in sadness and when you're looking for strength. So I think it is a kind of Bible in some ways. And of course we're talking about women's diaries, the private thoughts of women. And we were just talking a moment ago how hard it is to find the voices of women in history. And so I think Sarah Gristwood, who's written many books and we've presented together on TV and things. You know, she's a really brilliant woman. She's done an amazing job at compiling all of these diaries. and it's just a real range of experiences and content.

You said it's got a ribbon in there. Can I ask which page it's saved at this moment? I don't know that you love in particular that you wanted to. Well, I have got a few moments that I think. They're just such a range. For example, we've got Dorothy Wordsworth in 1800 on the 6th of August. A rainy morning, I ironed till dinner time, sewed till near dark,

then pulled a basket of peas and afterwards boiled and pickled gusberries. William came home from Kezik at 11 o'clock, a very fine night. So that's a very normal day-to-day account, but then if we flick over the page

Victoria Derbyshire's in here and she was facing an illness when she had been writing this and this is her entry on 23rd of August 2015 which is very different and she says, I'm spending money

much of today trying to reply to or favourite all the messages I continue to receive from people on Facebook and Twitter. It's important to me that I acknowledge as many people as I can because I each want to know how much their sensible, sympathetic words mean to me. And then if we flick over to another page, the 1st of September 1939, Virginia Woolf, war is on us this morning. Hitler has taken Danzig, has attacked or is attacking Poland. This, after a day in London, submerged doubts and hopes. Now, at one, I go to listen, I suppose, to the Declaration of War. A dull hot day.

I don't know why I write this or what I feel or shall feel. All is hovering over us. So that's on the cusp of war. And, you know, those are just three short snippets. And some of the quotes are much longer, some much shorter. I think it's such an interesting insight into women's lives and their private thoughts. To have these very intimate glimpses into women's lives up against these huge sweeping big events is a really interesting way of looking at the world. I was looking back through some of my diaries that I kept during the pandemic and I would be like, I really wish I hadn't ended things with this boy because now I'm alone.

Also, Boris Johnson's gone into hospital with COVID. And it's like, how are these things? sitting beside each other, but that was what was going on inside my head and inside my life. And I'm just one little person at this time. Do you keep a diary or a journal, anything that you can look back on like that? I do have a diary of sorts in that I kind of record everything I've done. I find it incredibly hard to find the time. And I know, you know, there's so many things, again, that we always feel like we should do. Got to find enough time to read. Got to find enough time to be quiet and have silence and meditate or whatever. Got to have time

to exercise and diary and everything. So I'm getting there, but it's something that when you read these kind of, these kind of books or these extracts, it's just an amazing thing. And I have had diaries in the past and I think that's such a joy to read. But you're right. It contextualize everything. It makes you realize that you've been worrying about such silly things you've completely forgotten about.

And you look back as well and that thing has been resolved now. Yeah, yeah. And you think, wow, at that moment, she didn't know that. that there would be resolution and here we are. And that's what you find when you read this book, Secret Voices, it's comforting. You know, there are all these women who have often gone through the same things or had the same mundane days as we've heard,

just all of these things, them kind of dealing with the events around us that we all face today. It's organised around the calendar year. And your new book as well follows the date of the historic journey of Eleanor's funeral procession. Are you interested in playing with four? form in your nonfiction in this sort of way? Yes, I suppose so.

I mean, people often ask how I've ended up writing these books. I've written three books and they're all very different. But I generally just don't think about it that much. I just have a gut feeling that that's what I want, what I think would work. But I think with this book, Eleanor, the form is this journey. And that is a great thing. I mean, every book has some sort of journey. But the fact that I've been on a physical journey is really, really helpful in

of telling a story, I think. What I've tried to do with this book is, you know, history books in some ways are quite traditional in the way they're written. We often have a biography of a historic figure and that's wonderful and that they're brilliant in their own way. But I think that there are certain types of books and certain formats which people naturally find easier to read. Okay, so we've seen recently people love crime or they love mysteries, you know. We've seen the success of people like Richard Osman, but that is a natural thing. Like Agatha Christie is the best selling author, one of the best selling authors all time. So people do do love certain formats. People love learning about love. They love the Dolly Alderton kind of

books, which give you comfort in your sadness, I suppose. And they love humor and they love walking books. So there are certain things. And I tried to think about that actually and say, how can I make a book that's really, really easy to read that suits the way that people like to read and bring history into that. Okay, so with this book, it's got themes of love and loss and it's all about grief and what griefs means over history, but it's hopefully quite easy to read and it's quite kind of humorous. So yeah, I have, I suppose I have thought about it actually. Now I think about it, I have thought about it quite a lot, but just trying to break out of the traditional history boundaries and bring history more into people's normal reading. I'm hoping to write

books about history that could be put on a non-history table in Waterstones so that you're reading history, but don't realize you're reading history. That's the goal, I think. Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out Bayleys.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes.

You mentioned our love of, walking books and those journeys, which brings us nicely onto your third book, which is a riding book. Oh, yes. It's through England on a side saddle by Celia Fines. Yes. Journeying through England on horseback. The intrepid 17th century traveller Celia Fines recorded every sight and experience of her adventure in her journal from her delight at countryside cakes and the beauty of remote landscapes to the challenges of disagreeable landladys, choppy sea crossings and a troublesome horse. How did you discover this book? I don't know, but I have been aware of this book for quite a long time.

I definitely remember reading it when I was a teen. Celia Fines was the person I came across, and she is one of the most amazing women in British history. There are so many women I come across in history when you're researching, and you're just like, how is there not a film about this person? She is so amazing, so incredible. And this is one of them. So Celia Fines was born in 1662 to 1741. that's when she died. She didn't get married. Instead, she basically toured the country and her books are called Riding Through England on Side Saddle. I just love it, like through

England on side saddle. And she would just go around the country and just record what she saw. And this has been incredibly useful for writing about history in this period because, you know, she will give an account of what it's like in Northampton in a particular year. And so it's incredibly helpful for us to know what the country was looking like. But I just think, you know, What a wonderful figure she was, that she did that. And I often think it's quite funny how I've also ended up spending my time going around Britain, making videos, like recording what's there. And I sort of feel like maybe, Celia and me, we would get on pretty well and we'd, you know, it's like when you go on those influencer trips together, I feel like we could do a trip together where we go and like film more content together. She'd be pals.

Yeah, we'd definitely be pals. We'd definitely be pals. But yeah, you know, she's, you know, here we've got the penguin version. And on the cover, it's just a quote from her book. And it says, A great storm of hail and rain met me and drove fiercely on me, but the winds soon dried my dust coat. So it's all about, you know, her experiences there. But like, even, for example, on the very final page, she goes to Land's End.

The Land's End terminates in a point or peak of great rocks, which runs a good way into the sea. I clambered over them as far as safety permitted me And then it just kind of carries on And she's talking about all the rocks We're just thinking about her clambering over the rocks Yeah, clambering over the rocks at Land's End in Cornwall And you know, the horse tied up at the side

And then she takes the effort to kind of record at all I just think it's wonderful We were just talking before we started recording about Literally clambering over rocks About you walking Hadrian's wall Us in the North East which I know well My family live in Northumber and we're just outside of Newcastle and used to go to like Vinterlandia and, you know,

it's an amazing piece of history on our doorstep that wall. And you were telling me about the crypts of Hexham, which is a town close to us, how they're rocks, their stones from Hadrian's wall. How important is it to you to bring history that is on the doorsteps of those people who will be watching your videos on social media? Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, a huge part of what I'm doing is to awaken. people, you know, to make people realize the amazing history that is on their doorstep.

We are so lucky in Britain. There is such a depth of history here. It is so rich in history. You know, Hexom is a great example. There's this medieval church, but it's got stones from the Roman structures that were originally there. It's wonderful that we've got the museums in London and we've got the British Museum or the National Gallery or whatever it might be. But a big part of what I'm trying to do is to say that actually wherever you live in the country, there is amazing history to be discovered on your doorstep. You know, it's probably your parish church or it's probably the structure and the landscape. And in this book, Eleanor, that is a huge message. If perhaps that is the message, which is, I've walked through 200 miles of England, but whatever that

route is and wherever that might be, there is history to be discovered there. So I really want people to find the history that is on their doorstep and really find joy from there every day. And that's the message. I think. Celia is this adventurer. I guess you could almost think of her as an early feminist figure on this journey, which is, you know, quite an iconic thing to do. Obviously, you're writing about Eleanor of Castile.

What other female figures sort of loom large in your life, whether professional or personal, alive or dead? That's a good question. I mean, I think there are so many. There are so many women from history who I always think are really impressive because they've had to put themselves out there and they've had to break them old

and I really respect that. I mean, just taking the example of Eleanor of Castile, she is pretty formidable. If she was alive today, she would be on Dragon's Den. You know, she was like a businesswoman of her own time. We often take for granted the kind of intensity of people's experiences in the past. So it will be written about Eleanor of Castile.

Oh, she came to England as a girl and she married this prince she didn't know and then she was taken to England this country she didn't know that she'd never been to. Yeah, and what I try and do in my writing is bring those moments to life. Like this is the moment that Eleanor was on the boat seeing England for the first time

knowing this was going to be, this probably bleak, rainy landscape was going to be the place that she would have to call home, not knowing whether she was going to be happy, not knowing whether she'll see her family ever again. Like it's a really, really difficult thing that people had to live through in the past.

So trying to give those moments credit and how difficult they were. But in 18, there are so many women that I write about, like Rosalind Franklin, who played a such big part in our understanding of DNA and has largely gone under the radar. Most people don't know who she is. Or Vita Sackville West is one of the women that I write about.

Oh, one of the most wonderful woman was Mary Anning. She actually is a real inspiration to me. She was born in 1799, almost the same time that North Anger Abbey was written, and she was in Lyme Regis in the south coast of England and she was from a very poor background. Her family had little to no money, really. She had no connections.

She had not been to an expensive education. She had not been to London. She didn't know anyone important. You know, the chances of her being someone who was a major figure, academically, intellectually, is so small. Yet, by the time she was 18 years old, she had become an expert in our understanding of, paleontology. So fossils and she discovered all these fossils and some of the fossils she

discovered as a teen are still the main exhibits in the Natural History Museum. And so I just love Marianne that she's so, it's so humble. She just stepped out of her house and she just observed the natural world around her with patience and care and thoughtfulness. She achieved great things. And I think that you see that a lot with women. It's actually a bit behind, you know, it's quite, quite humble in the way that people do things, but actually it then amounts to something quite magnificent by the end. Everything is loud to begin with. Exactly. She was not loud.

And actually, there's another woman who's amazing that I must mention. She's called Sarah Biffin. And she was born in 1784 in East Quantox Head. Again, this tiny little village in Somerset that's so sleepy and quiet today. And she was a great artist of the 19th century. And she would paint these amazing miniatures and she was celebrated by royalty and she was written about by Charles Dickens. the interesting thing about Sarah Biffin is she was born with no arms and no legs

but the extraordinary thing about her is that she never let that get in her way she was born in this little village in Somerset the chances of her being a household name in that year is extraordinary you know even her parents didn't thought it was silly her teaching herself to sew but she could teach she taught herself to sew to paint like it's just incredible

that you know people just think about what she achieved with And she dies in Liverpool. And at that point, she set up the studio, she set up this business. She's an amazing businesswoman. And she's planning to go to America, essentially, and she dies before that happens. But the ambition there is amazing throughout her life. So I think, you know, some of these women are just so ambitious and achieving such great things.

And I just love telling those stories. Well, your next book, Chevy book, centers on a woman who was also formidable, but whose memory is perhaps a little louder in our history. It's The Tower by Flora Car, a feminist retelling of Mary Queen of Scott's Darkest Hour. The Tower is a triumphant story of desire, grit and god-given power, starring one of history's most charismatic leaders and exploring the unshakable strength of female friendship. This book is full of tension. Despite being set almost entirely in one room, what makes it so powerful? Why did you select it?

Yeah, so I read this book. Actually, interestingly, I just read The Safekeep and then I read The Tower. Okay. And I think we've got a theme here. And they are quite similar in some of their themes. You know, it is, it's about this moment in Mary Carina Scott's Lives where she's captured in a castle in Scotland. And she arrives and she's there with two other women and then another one of her ladies that joins us. So it's about these four women really. And then, you know, and there's some other figures as well who were kind of around.

and perhaps keeping them captive, so not on side, if you like. But it's just this amazing insight into their world, brought to life so beautifully by Flora Carr. You know, it's wonderful to write these big stories of, you know, broad stories telling great stories of politics and art and whatever it might be, but to focus in sometimes on one year. It's basically one year in one room, and it's like, this is the tension and how the relationships change.

It's really interesting because, you know, she arrives with these two kind of servant figures who are quite lowly, and those two suddenly feel like they've got this amazing position that they're like the number two or the number one to Mary Queen of Scots. And then this other figure Lady Seton arrives and then they're kind of pushed aside. So it's all of these different tensions within that. There's moments where they're trying to escape from the tower. It's all about plotting and planning. And yeah, I just found it gripping. And then at the end of it, I realized, hang on, it's only been in one room pretty much. the whole time. So I think that's a real triumph of writing from Flora Carr, who I've met. She's an amazing writer and I think she'll do, she's got some more books on the go, I think, and I think she'll, she's one to watch. Well, it's claustrophobic because you're in there with them in that room for that, essentially, historical moment. It's just a moment. It's just a year with all these women. You're trapped together. You're waiting. Do you think that the setting sort of becomes a metaphor of how women's lives were

restricted historically at the time. Yeah, it's a nice idea to think about. I mean, they're in Lockleven Castle, and it's a tower on an island. So it's like really tracelated, yeah. So like they're really trapped, and they spend a lot of time mulling over that. One of them gets injured by kind of trying to escape out the window.

And there's a moment when they're trying, I don't want to spoil it, but there's a moment where Mary almost escaped. and then it's, you know, they're brought back. But again, it's just, it feels like, you know, those moments in history where women go, they are about to give birth, and then they're in these rooms, and it's all blocked off from the rest of the world, and it's incredibly claustrophobic, and it's this kind of like womanly space. It feels a bit like that, that kind of environment.

I mean, I think the big message for me in this book was, it was, again, it's like the Secret Voices book. It's like hearing the personal, private thoughts of all these women that perhaps I see it more because I see the original sources of these things a lot and often the original sources will say like it will be the write-up of the person who was in charge of looking after Mary Queen in Scots at that point. So the captor, right?

Or it will be the official record or the official document and that is a completely different account to what was going on inside that room. So that's again, you know, what I was saying earlier, this is where fiction is so good. It brings to life these moments that are not in the official record chords. And, you know, I know Flora did a lot of work to make sure that it was accurate and to make sure that she had brought to, you know, because there's a lot of talk about them

getting, it's quite physical in some ways, you know, there's a lot of talk about her getting dressed and the women helping her get dressed and her body changing and, you know, that's just quite traumatic at some points, pregnancy and things. And Flora made a big effort to make sure that that was all accurate in things and the items of clothing and everything. And yeah, it's a wonderful. I mean, that could be an amazing film, I think. Well, because, you know, Mary's Queen of Scots have been written about so much throughout history. But Flora Car does really capture our attention in a different way here.

Because, again, like you say, there's accounts and not necessarily from that perspective. Yeah. So we're seeing a new one, a fresh one, of which there are infinite numbers. And the other similarity I thought with the Safekeep was it was just so beautifully written. Yeah. Like, really beautiful. And I think that's really good with history that it. it has a glamour to it and it has a you know and a glamour in the writing you know a glamour and a

literary glamour I think which is important well speaking of royalty you're a mentor for the king's foundations 35 under 35 network alongside princess eugenie designer dr samuel ross mbe and artist and influencer sophie t congratulations thank you what does this involve well the king's foundation is this really wonderful organization it's um founded by You used to be called The Princes Foundation, so it's set up by Prince Charles, now King. And they do all sorts of things. The reasons that I'm involved is because they do a lot to educate people on heritage crafts. And that can be all sorts of things.

It can be young stonemasons. It can be embroidery. So there's a massive Chanel at Deliae at the Dunfrey's House and at High Grove. And I've been there and there were all these amazing women who come and teach you how this embroidery processes work. And that's just one thing. You know, there's a huge kind of community network in Dumfrey's House in Scotland, where it's really benefited local people in all sorts of ways, like so many different ways that I couldn't do it justice.

But I'm sort of involved in the heritage side of that. And we have this network of young people. There are 35 young people to mark 35 years since the foundation was established. And, yeah, I'm one of the mentors. But, you know, there's so many amazing women in it. some of them are creating content like what I'm doing but there are some like a girl called Beth Gregg who is doing amazing like garden products but in this really kind of wonderfully sustainable way and she's a fabulous businesswoman you know it is a real range of

things but I think the energy there is cool I like it unless you're really I guess fulfilling and enriching to just be able to pass on your passions like that sure yeah I mean I you know I am a mentor, but I also feel like I could learn quite a lot from these guys as well. You know, they're pretty, they're pretty impressive, all of them. Something I'm really passionate about is giving young people a platform. So I've also set up this thing called the 30 under 30 prize, I suppose, the BBC History Extra, which is like the BBC History magazine. And that celebrates young historians.

It's just a platform to be like, here are 30 young people doing amazing things in history. And look, I don't know how much that recognition helps, but I think it has brought people together. I think it's giving people confidence. So many of them have book deals. You know, they're all writing. And it's just really cool to be able to do that. You know, and there are loads of these networks. I'm part of the National Gallery 200 creators thing.

And there's the, obviously, there's the London Library Emerging Writers Program, which is so wonderful as well. So I think these young networks, if all they do is just recognize people, that is a huge thing. And I think it's a brilliant scheme. Yeah. It's a constant uplift, a constant more motivation. I think that's not to be sniffed at. It's important. It's time to talk about your fifth and final bookshelfy pick today, which is Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell, winner of the 2020 Women's Prize of Fiction. Hamnet is a novel inspired by the son of a famous playwright, a boy who died age 11 and whose life has been all but forgotten, but whose name was given to one of the most celebrated plays ever written. Why is this book important to you?

Well, I love it when people write about history. Full stop. So I was very excited that everybody was so excited about it. But I thought it was a brilliant book, you know, for many reasons. I think, you know, even open on the very first page, I remember skimming through it in a bookshop or somewhere. And on the very first page, it says something like, it basically makes the point that the name Hamlet and Hamlet were interchangeable at that period. And obviously, that's like completely changed everything. That suddenly, you realize that Hamlet has this context of his son, not to give any spoilers. I don't know. I'm pretty sure everyone's ready. I think people know. They know that. Yeah. Yeah, well, exactly. It's on the first page. Yeah, if you've not got that far. Yeah. Yeah, you can read that in the bookshop. No, so I thought it's brilliant. And I think, you know, credits Mario Farrell for seriously changing the conversation of history. And again, it's the power of fiction that can can make us rethink all these things. But you know, I have long explored Stratford-upon-Avon, and I've been to William Shakespeare's house, and I had never, I'd never seen it in the way

that I had seen it when I read that book. It transformed forever, probably, how I think about Shakespeare's family and his childhood. And it's just bringing these characters to life. That's what she did so brilliantly. So I am always indebted to her, and so many other writers to do that. And I think, you know, Philippa Gregory is amazing in her writing about Amberlin and people like that. But I think it's the location of Stratford-upon-Avon, and you can go and see the houses of William Shakespeare. You can go and see the houses of Hull's Croft and Mary Arden's house. And so it was those locations that suddenly I could actually see the people in there. And I can see Hamnet at the door and I can see William Shakespeare coming back from London and all these kind of things.

We so often think about how history changes the way we might read fiction. but I really like what you said about fiction changing the way you look at history. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's amazing. The best, apparently the most, the best way to shape people's view of the past for good or for worse is through film. Okay. And films are a fiction and, you know, Hamnet is now going to be a film. You know, I would say films are kind of an extension of fiction writing.

And that's because they're so vivid. Are you excited for the film, that vividness, that compelling. capacity that it has? Yeah, definitely. As I say, whenever there's a film made about history or anything that people are excited about this historic, I think it's exciting because I can see the value. You know, when Bridgeton came out, people started reading loads of books about Georgian period and they started going to the Jane Austen house and things. So, you know, that's great, whatever the hook is. And I think, you know, Hamlet should do, hopefully will be wonderful because it is set from literature. It is a book. But, you know, I would like to make the distinction that

I think the experience of reading a book is more engrossing and compelling and powerful than watching a film because of the time that you spend reading it and your half of creating the story because your imagination is needed to forge the image of the characters to form the smells or whatever it might be whereas I think with film you kind of let them do that for you so you kind of have an ownership of it when you read the book I think oh absolutely and particularly when it comes to Maggio Farrell, the marriage portrait, which brings to life Lucretia de Medeci in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence, which I read a few years ago. Gosh, that was the most compelling, most all-consuming, vivid experience reading that. Sure. And now you probably walk through Florence. Yeah. And it's a completely different experience.

I mean, I think with, you know, I've talked about location a lot, and that's an important thing in my research. And it's an important thing when I finish these books. So at the end of 18, I have a list, places to visit. And so all of the places I've talked about, you know, I know it's a non-fiction book, but when I write my books, I want this to be the start. I think you see that with Hamlet. Like, that is the start. And lots of people have gone on to explore Hamlet and that whole world.

And it's had a journey of its own. But I hope that people have a journey of their own after my books. And, you know, they might read about Mary Anning in one chapter of 18. But actually the ideal result is that they actually go. to Lyme Regis and they go and see the statue of her with her little dog or with Sarah Biffin they'll go to the gallery where they've got an exhibition on and they will go and see her work and you know maybe read more about her maybe read the big biography so I hope I can be the hook for people's interest to blossom really you're igniting it in people whether through your books

or through your content through your videos which period of history or a historical figure or a place would you like to explore next? Oh, um, well, there's so many. This is a hard question. But I have noticed that people have a real fascination with art. It is amazing how much people adore certain paintings, like Ophelia, that was just popularised because of Taylor Swift. And I'm always trying to find the hooks for people to help them get into history.

You know, I really believe that anyone's into history. We're all into history. you just have to help people find the hook because history is everything that's ever happened. It doesn't matter what your interest is. There is a history to it. But I know that paintings is quite a big hook for people and I feel like that could be a good way to broaden it out

whether that be the execution of Lady Jane Grey and the story of that or Ophelia and all these women. You know, she's an amazing woman behind that. Or Mary Beale, who's this incredible woman who was a painter in the 1700s in London and nobody knows something. about her. So there's a lot of women behind the scenes with all this work. You know, in my first book, Uproar, I wrote about James Gilray and all these artists, but the person who held it

together was this woman called Hannah Humphrey. And she, yeah, and she was the print shop owner and she did the deals and she was the businesswoman and she commissioned the work and she was the one that took the risk and, you know, had to deal with the king or the customers coming in who might have been royalty satirized in her prints that she was selling. But we never really hear about her. And actually, do you know what, there's, I've always thought, oh, maybe I should have written a, instead of doing that as a nonfiction book, you could write an amazing book that would be like Hannah, and it would just be called Hannah, and it would be all about her. You still can. I know, I know, well, maybe, maybe I will, you know, but it just makes me suddenly think,

and that's the joy of fiction. You couldn't do that for nonfiction, but you could do for fiction. So, who knows? I have a thousand ideas, and I can't, you know, you can't ask me questions like that. I will never stop talking. Watch this space. And, you know, a woman holding it together, who'd have thought? Who'd have thought? Alice, I'm going to have to ask you one last question, and it's a hard one. But if you had to choose one book from your list, a five as a favourite, which would it be, and why?

Well, I think I would have to go for secret voices, which in some way is a strange choice, because I don't even know if I've read it cover to cover myself because it's just these little snippets, but it's something that forever you'd be able to go back to. And I think it's very comforting. I like to be comforted. But I think it shows all the contours of women's lives in so many different ways across the centuries.

And that in itself is a great comfort that whatever situation you're in, there will be women who have gone through that before. And I think you get a sense of it in that book. And every time you go back to it, you feel something different. And I think you learn, you know, even if you look at it for 10 seconds or a minute, you come away feeling, you know, you've learned something or you feel slightly different. And that is the great skill of Sarah Gristwood to have curated good snippets that all means something and all quite powerful and that you really hear the voices of women shining through.

Well, you described it earlier as a Bible of women's experience. Yeah. It's a beautiful tome and we can't ask for more than that. Thank you so much, Alice. Thanks for having me. It's been amazing to chat to you today. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Price for Fiction, Bootschelphie podcast.

brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. See you next time.