Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep22: Bookshelfie: Angela Scanlon

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

Irish broadcaster, podcaster and author Angela Scanlon discusses why Marian Keyes was so inspirational to her, how an unexpected honeymoon reading choice had her bawling, and why choosing not to get your nails done is a radical act.  Angela is best known for hosting shows on the BBC and RTÉ as well as her weekend breakfast show on Virgin Radio. Her first major documentary, Oi Ginger! aired in 2014, trending worldwide and showcasing her ability to dig deep into a subject matter. The success of the show led to a follow-up series, Angela Scanlon: Full Frontal, where she tackled taboo subjects such as extreme makeovers, fitness and nudity.  Since beginning her work with the BBC, Angela has hosted The One Show and cult classic Robot Wars alongside Dara O’Brien, as well as coverage of T In The Park and the BAFTAs. In 2022 Angela published her debut book Joyrider: How Gratitude Can Help You Get The Life You Really Want. Part memoir, part self-help guide, Joyrider sees Angela chart her own journey into the world of self-development. This year has seen Angela launch the Get A Grip podcast, alongside co-host Vicky Pattison. Described as the ultimate group chat, Angela and Vicky discuss everything from motherhood and navigating newly-wed life to pop culture, internet drama and much more. She’s also the founder of jewellery brand frkl. and the online community, Hot Messers.  Angela’s book choices are:  **Rachel’s Holiday by Marian Keyes **Soldier Sailor by Claire Kilroy **A Girl is a Half-Formed Thing by Eimear McBride **Trespasses by Louise Kennedy **I Feel Bad About My Neck: And Other Thoughts On Being a Woman by Nora Ephron Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize’s Bookshelfie Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is the biggest celebration of women's creativity in the world and has been running for over 30 years.  Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long-distance relationship, becoming a first stepfather, Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office.

I could speak with my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talkspace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code Space 80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code, space 80 at talkspace.com. Tell us what made you pick this book today.

I mean, actually, now that you're reminding me what it was about, I'm like, I don't know. I read this on my honeymoon. That is deranged. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction Bookshelfy podcast supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world. in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy,

the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list. Today I am joined by Angela Scanlan. Angela is an Irish broadcaster, podcaster and author known for hosting shows on the BBC and RTE as well as her weekend breakfast show on Virgin Radio. Her first major documentary, Oy Ginger, aired in 2014, trending worldwide and showcasing her ability to dig deep into a subject matter.

The success of the show led to a follow-up series, Angela Scanlon Full Frontal, where she tackled taboo subjects such as extreme makeovers, fitness and nudity. Since beginning her work with the BBC, Angela has hosted The One Show and cult classic Robot Wars. alongside Darrow Breen, as well as coverage of tea in the park and the Bafters. In 2022, Angela published her debut book, Joyrider, How Gratitude Can Help You Get the Life You Really Want. Part Memoir, part self-help guide, Joyrider sees Angela chart her own journey into the world of self-development. This year has seen Angela launch the Get a Grip podcast alongside co-host Vicky Pattinson,

described as the ultimate group chat. Angela and Vicky discuss everything from motherhood and navigating newlywed life to pop culture, internet drama and much more. She's also the founder of Jewelry Brand Freckle and the online community Hot Messes. Angela, welcome. Thank you. I never knew listening whether you did those intros in real time, because it's quite awkward to endure, I have to be honest. I like that you did that, you know, the smile where you put your lips away.

I'm like, yeah, we're going there. And just a little odd for each one, each agglade. Also quite a throwback. I'm like, Oi Ginger, which when I pitched it, I literally shaded at the commissioner, thinking that was like a charming, memorable moment. I was like, so I have this idea. It's called, Oi, Ginger. It's like, okay, cool. Yeah.

Let's do it. It did. Yeah. But like quite the throwback. Actually, thinking back, 2014, we're talking over a decade ago. I know. Yeah. We were just saying, we were just in the studio having a little chat about how fast life comes at you, how fast.

things change. We're talking about motherhood and everything in between and all these various jobs, these career moves. Looking back through it all, I've loved following you and it's been about a decade that I've been following you. Same. I've loved that joy that runs through everything, that women supporting women, that expressing yourself unashamedly being who you want to be. Do you feel like that underpins your work? I feel like it did in the beginning and it does now and there was probably a period in the middle

where that absolutely wasn't. It certainly wasn't an easy kind of place for me. And so I always think it's quite hard-earned, you know, joy is like something that you work for and that you work at and that you kind of create rather than you just happen to stumble upon. So, yeah, I would think I probably present as like that, but yeah, I've worked quite hard.

You've earned it. Joy is radical. Do you know what I... It's political. I really believe that it is, actually, because there's so much that tells us, I mean, life is hard. It's difficult.

And there's a lot going on. And if you're a sensitive, if you're human, if you're human, full stop, it's hard not to feel rattled, whether you're feeling it yourself or whether you're, you know, observing it across the world. I think to try and withstand that while also being, you know, affected by that. But to then respond by consciously striving for joy. And look, joy is a tricky word. because it sounds like, you know, Christmas and sparkles and things that are, I don't know, not real life, but actually for me, real joy is the kind of everyday things,

but noticing them in the moment before they've passed. I feel like literature is often a tool for that. Like carrying a book of poetry around in my bag just so I can remember that the smallest things, the things that might even seem ugly like a crane in the sky, could be poetic, that's beauty, that's joy. We'll come to your boot choices in a moment, but most of them are by Irish authors.

Yes. Islands always punched above its way in terms of literary talent. What is it about Irish literature that you find so impactful or poignant or powerful or powerful or beautiful? I mean, I guess it's the thing that, like, I relate to it. I relate to the language. I relate to the turn of phrase. I relate to the places and to the people. But I think Irish people probably globally look quite happy.

And again, I think that that is quite hard earned for Irish people. And so we have learned, I think, to kind of not take ourselves so seriously. I think we feel very deeply. And I'm obviously generalising. But I think there's a sensitivity to Irish people that is often overlooked because of how we present. But we feel deeply, we observe. And I think storytelling is kind of in your veins.

Like if you're at home, the only way you're getting any airtime in a busy family is to craft a good, you know, yarn. And so to be able to tell, like, it's interesting because when I socialise with a bunch of Irish people, as I often do, the kind of exchange is so different. So, like, if somebody tells a great story, usually people sit back and enjoy it and applaud them, okay, in a normal environment. If you're surrounded by Irish people, someone tells a story and then someone tells another story that somehow connects to the story that has just been told. And then people are essentially waiting their turn to build on that. That's why you ask, what's the crack.

Yeah. You're like, entertain me. Talk to me. Give it to me. What have you got? Yeah. Make me laugh. Make me laugh.

Like, show me. Show me something. And I think that that's probably, you'll see that throughout this, is I want to, like, make me laugh, but also make me feel. Yeah. I don't, like, I don't do surface really well. Oh, no, make me cry, if you will. If you dare. If you dare.

If you can. And I know one of your books did, maybe more than one, but one in particular. Yeah. Let's get into it. Your first book shelfy book is Rachel's Holiday by Mariankees. Meet Rachel Walsh, an Irish expatriate in New York with a substance abuse problem. After a near-fatal overdose, her family sends her to a rehabilitation clinic in Ireland called The Cloisters. Initially in denial and hoping for a luxury spa-like experience,

Rachel reluctantly begins to navigate the challenges of recovery by confronting past issues while surprisingly learning the importance of accepting herself. Now, you've chosen this as a formative read. Can you tell us, when did you read it? Like, how old were you? Can you remember the circumstances around it? I mean, I have to be honest, from the gecko. I cannot remember what I did yesterday.

So, like, the details are often quite sketchy, right? So I, like, cling on to a feeling rather than a fact, okay? That's fine. Our favourite books, often we remember how they made us feel. Not what happened in them. Not what happened. Absolutely. I know Rachel is the key character because that's the title of the book.

That's why I've got a blurb here, Angela. Don't worry about it. Oh, God, can I have it? So I just remember Like I remember being in So this was in 1997 and it was like very much It was a huge book in Ireland It was a huge book globally

I mean Marion Keyes has gone on to sell 40 million books in that chitlet space Which she very passionately speaks about She's like people are so Or were so dismissive about it And she's a genius I think In the way that she crafts characters that you know

in your bones like I feel like each of them and again I don't think that it's specifically Irish because I think she speaks to a universal audience and there's such wit and warmth and tenderness and heartache and the kind of mundane everyday lives that we all lead and the complexities within the family structure and the kind of car crash moments

that we all have in our lives. But there's just such a kind of beautiful kindness in the way that she approaches those stories. And nobody is ever the victim. And it's never anyone's fault. Like there's no judgment, really, and they're always very hopeful.

And I think I subsequently went to New York and stayed there for a period and literally wanted to escape there. And so I think there are parallels, that story, and although I didn't have a substance addiction, I had an eating disorder, which I would have been in the kind of midst of in that place. While you're in New York. While I was in New York.

And so I think, you know, again, she speaks to those subjects in a way that is real, but also, you know, kind of funny. Yes. Like the idea of, I think I did. I never went to rehab. I went to like therapy long after the fact but I remember thinking oh rehab sounds like a bit of me

you know it sounds quite fab and the idea that Rachel would go to the cloisters and genuinely think she's having massages on tap that was something I would have loved to sign up for and so yeah I think just a wonderful writer that aside from the actual story for me Marion Keyes was this woman

who I could not see myself in but I was like oh she's one of us and she was global and that to me felt so inspiring that there was a kind of and I don't know that it was intentional

she speaks about it with you know such a kind of she's so self-deprecating I think and I don't know that she set out and it's quite a fairy tale how she wrote this novel and got published

and all of the rest. But I think for me as an Irish, as a young woman who felt kind of suffocated I suppose by being in a small town and having frankly

notions, which is a very Irish term, but ideas above my station, having ideas about what I wanted for my life. I think Marion Keyes kind of was, you know, a number of years ahead. And I remember thinking, Oh, we, Irish women, can do, like, big things. Up until that point, I had really only seen Irish men

had certainly flown the nest and, you know, excelled in lots of areas. But for me, she was somebody who was an example and a kind of beacon of what could be possible maybe. Yeah, because she writes about, and I guess speaks to the experience of living as an Irish person, person abroad, Irish identity abroad in Rachel. But yeah, you're right. Marian herself is, like you say, a beacon of that.

As someone living and working outside of Ireland, did that aspect resonate with your own sense of being Irish in the wider world and kind of speak to you and what you wanted to do and what you wanted to achieve? What were you hoping for? Do you know, I don't know that I had clarity. I was always quite jealous of people who, at seven, thought I want to be a teacher

and they knew with absolute clarity I think I had wild frustration I knew I had a sense that I wanted something like kind of glam and I wanted excitement

and I wanted kind of like stories I wanted to create I wanted to break rules and have fun and that was kind of you know a ridiculous thing to think at the time. And so it did feel quite radical.

And I think, you know, the point on Marion, she's absolutely herself. I don't know. Has she ever done this? Well, I've actually been on a podcast with her, but not this podcast. Okay. So I've met her. And I forget which book we were talking about. I just read of hers.

I just remember being so obsessed with the lilt of it. Yeah. And the way that she writes and almost the melody of it. And also the way that she writes family dynamics, which you mentioned. It's just insane. Like the way that people relate to themselves, but also the people around them, is so spot on. And like you say, it can be dark, but it can be funny. And for me, Marion, is, like, full of heart, like wide open, gaping heart.

And I think I have that tendency at times, but it's a very frightening thing to do. and it can feel quite naive and it can look almost childlike and I think those were aspects of myself that I didn't enjoy for a very long time. So I think she kind of may be on a really subtle level allowed me to be myself a bit more.

Yeah, but I just think she's magic and I think she's like a proper woman's woman I had her on and she's become a friend now and I remember I have a show, radio show on Virgin Radio. She came on to talk about the follow-up to this book. And I was like, sorry, they say, I said, why is she doing my show? Like, she could have done Chris's show or she could have, she never said anything.

She was like, of course. She came in, we had an amazing conversation that could have gone on forever. And when she left, I chatted to her publicist and I said, Thank you so much for making that happen. She was like, she was never. So I think I was kind of trying to say to her, I feel like she might have got a bigger audience on Chris's show. And as a friend going, you know, next time, make sure she does that show.

And she said, oh no, like, obviously. She wanted to come on your show. But she got offered all of the shows. She was like, she went, so she very quietly and but very determinedly champions women in a beautifully generous way that I think is really special. And if anyone's seen her tweets during Strictly, you can vouch for that.

Actually, I do want to mention on the subject of supporting one another of community. You've lived in London for, well, it'll be more than 10 years now. Well, we officially moved to London when I got married, which would be like 11 years ago, but I pretended to live in London

for maybe three years before that and was like, over back, over back. Yeah, I can make the meeting. frantically booking a flight. How easy was it for you to build a community when you came here? And what is hot messes all about? How does that play into building community? I mean, I think I was without community for such a long time

that it's now, I realised the wild importance of it. I think I definitely swapped that, you know, eating disorder for a work addiction truthfully. And I came over here. And I knew nobody. I wanted to work in telly. I didn't have a direct-in. I didn't know, you know, an uncle who worked here, there or anywhere, or an aunt, frankly.

If I did, I would have used them. Don't get me wrong. But I didn't have that. So I had a kind of, there was like a urgency, I suppose. I'd built a career in Ireland. And so that was kind of, in a way, funding. So I would, like, go home and frantically work in Ireland and then come over here and, like, try to build meetings. and ideas and all of the things

but I think my time in London in the initial stages I was quite laser focused I was here to work I wasn't here to make friends which was to my detriment actually because it felt like a really quite a lonely place for me

and I I suppose I kind of thought that was maybe because I was a bit of a weird or I was kind of but you realise I wasn't over here like drinking. I was really good at drinking in my 20s and I made loads of friends in that environment but I was here to work and I couldn't afford to kind of stay out all night because I had to get up for work the following day and so I found it quite difficult and I probably

deprived myself of friendships and of intimacy and of you know closeness and I didn't give myself the time and the opportunities to create, you know, friendships that allowed for a place like London, which I think can be very lonely to feel safe and to feel warm. So it was, yeah, it was really tricky for me, but it was an itch I had to scratch. Like, I have this just weird, sadistic drive in me that whatever makes me feel uncomfortable, I really feel like I need to conquer it, not like move away from it. I need to go into it more. which I think has served me quite well, but, you know, can be painful in the moment.

And so Hot Messrs was kind of almost accidental. Like I feel like I've built up this really lovely community online of kind of, I suppose, fellow weirdos and people who are unapologetic about being themselves and, you know, a bit wild and a bit, I don't know, feral maybe. And so I thought, okay, that's all very well and good to have those connections. but like taking them offline and into a field or wherever is really important and it was a missing piece for me. And so we go for walks, frankly. That's what you do. No, it's great. It's great that we can all convene online, but sometimes we've got to get it offline.

You've got to get it offline. I then started to look into loneliness and this idea, it's as detrimental to your health as smoking like 20 fags a day or something. It's kind of this epidemic of people feeling wildly connected. Like, I don't know about you. I feel like I'm on all the time. I'm connected to people. I know 300,000 people and exactly what they're doing all the time. Exactly.

Which sometimes I think is great. It's a shortcut. I'm like, I know what you've been up to. Let's get deep and quickly. But actually, there's something about those like, yeah, it's human context. So I think people can feel like they're on and they're connected to people, but actually feel really quiet. quite alone.

Well, on the subject of isolation and feeling alone, let's move on to your second bookshelfy book, which is Soldier Sailor by Claire Kilroy. Shortlisted for the 2024 Women's Prize for Fiction, Soldier Sailor follows a new mother, soldier, as she navigates the tumultuous and exhausting early years of motherhood with her son, Sailor, highlighting the drastic shift in identity,

autonomy and creativity experienced by a new mother, contrasted with the unchanging life of her husband, the novel explores both the joys and agonies of motherhood. Now, this book, I know it captures the raw, chaotic and tender experience of early motherhood. Did you see your own feelings and experiences reflected in it? Well, I think when a few people say, you should read this book. Now, this is after the fact, so I read it maybe 18 months ago. I've got three-year-olds almost, four, seven-year-olds, almost eight.

So I was out of the, you know, weeds, so to speak. Yeah, like you think you are and then something hits. But anyway, out of that early, like, you know, slightly mad phase. And I think after my first daughter, and I have spoken kind of openly about this, I really struggled, which was to do with, you know, I just think so little can prepare you for that moment. And I think sometime, for me, I had spent, you know, I had had her at maybe 35. I had, as I explained, built a career in Ireland, frantically built a career, you know, against the odds.

I was like, oh, I can't get an agent in Ireland, I'll try to get one over here. It was kind of spinning all of the plates, living two lives and seeing, you know, what landed. and always striving for the next thing, but really my life milestones and the things that I valued at the time were career milestones. I had kind of lost touch truthfully with the importance of the real things. The other ones, yeah.

Yeah, and so I think when I had my daughter, I was kind of met with, the version of myself that I'd been running away from for, you know, 35 years or certainly 20 years, I would say, from the kind of beginning of that eating disorder which was my, you know, place to hide, if you like,

or my way to cope and that kind of morphed into different things along the way and then here I was. And I just remember just having this beautiful, helpless little soul that I felt so kind of lucky to be blessed with

and yet so guilty. That was my overwhelming kind of fear was that she had been kind of landed with this dud of a mother who didn't quite know what to do and I had these kind of moments of like looking at her

as this little soul little lost soul almost because obviously the big wild word is quite different to the cozy womb I suspect and I also felt like a really lost soul I think

becoming a mother there's all of the practical things that were met with and that people fixate and talk about like the sleep regression and the breastfeeding and the logistics and the planning and all of those things. And I think we forget that we're also met or reminded of ourselves as those

tiny little babies. And so the versions of you that you've kind of abandoned or dismissed or not helped or not held in compassion, you suddenly can't kind of escape. And so, you know, for me, it was an impetus to really change and do some like serious work for myself. for her. I was like, I don't want, like, this is supposed to be joy. This is supposed to be this beautiful little bubble. And look, in hindsight, that was a wild expectation that is not really real either. There are, you know, parts of that. But I think motherhood in all its gory detail and the wild change to self and identity and the kind of sense of disappearing in service of this little human

and the maybe expectation that a mother is born at the same time as the child. At the same time and it doesn't necessarily happen that moment. And I think it does for some people and that was what I struggled with because I was like, they're lying. They're like this. Why is everybody pretending this is easy?

Or maybe it won't ever happen for me because it hasn't happened right then. And I think that's the frightening thing that you're, yeah, you feel like, oh my God, will I ever be able to give this baby what they deserve? And was it different second time round? It was different second time round. And I think that was because I had literally spent five years in therapy. And I had grown into the role of motherhood or mothering.

And I had accepted, you know, my version of that because I think we're all different in the way that we parent. So, yeah, and I feel maybe I had spent a number of years, you know, there's four years between the girls. And so I had kind of earned, I had convinced myself maybe or proven to myself that I was a good mother, whatever that means. You know, but that I knew my limits and I knew where I made mistakes and I was able to hold myself a accountable for things that I had done wrong. I was kind of prepared to sit with the uncomfortable reality of having run away at points. And yeah, but I think it's wild.

And this book, because you're like, I should read it. And I was like, don't. Maybe not right now. Maybe not right now. This is interesting because this book is claustrophobic. It's intense. It's messy. Fisceral.

You said to me, maybe don't read it just yet. Would you say that to every mother? Would you say that what stage is a good time to read it? And why? See, this is the thing because genuinely I think I believed that my experience must have been the collective experience, but everybody was just pretending. It was fine.

And I think there's no, everyone's experience is completely different based on where they are in their life. They may read this going, oh my God, that poor, mad woman, I loved it. I didn't have to get on a tube, whatever your version of it is. But I think there will definitely be, you will relate. And I think she speaks really profoundly to this kind of resentment that so many women will be familiar with in spite of themselves and in spite their best efforts to not go down that route.

Because her life, this every day getting up, doing the washing, going for a walk in the park, looking at your watch, like the day he kind of flies by but also drags and if you've built a life where you have independence and you've all of that

and you think oh my God this is me, is this me forever and you can feel like that's never going to end and again, like a privilege in so many ways but you then see and this is her version the man heading out for work kind of, you know, annoyed

that he had been woken in the night but also hadn't done the night feed because that's not his gig because he's getting up for work and that's fine and we've all, that's been the arrangement. We've chatted about it, yeah. You know, that's the gig now for this period.

And I think her kind of bubbling resentment for this man who she feels has literally abandoned her, abandoned her with this brand new little baby who she adores in the most like the sense and the endures normity of the love, which I think a lot of people will relate to. And some people have that capacity where they have been open enough to be able to receive that. Other people will be like,

oh my God, hang on, this feels too big to carry and too frightening because it, you know, reminds you, I think if you allowed that intensity of love to come in, it's met very quickly with the fear that it will disappear, you know? And so she's kind of cycling through this and there's just a frantic kind of manic energy to this book that feels, I mean, maybe, you know, uncomfortably familiar. It's so interesting that you feel it could be so familiar that that's a bad thing. Because for some people it could be so familiar that it's a good thing and they feel just so much less alone. Because of it, it can go either way. Yeah.

And it just depends when you read it and sometimes the frame of mind you're in. And I also think it's like this book, I think, if you're in, if you're in, a state where you feel wildly vulnerable in that mother, exactly to your point, it may feel like a comfort. And, you know, without ruining it, there is a, it's all okay. That's what they say. It's all okay in the end. But that kind of, you know, this two shall pass. But that, yeah, it can feel kind of smothering and suffocating. I mean, I'm so not being an advert for mothering right now. And I love it. Well, at least just add that at the end.

I love it. I love it. Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book.

Check out Bayleys.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. You said at the beginning, you want a book that makes you feel something, you know, and that clearly did. We move on now to the book that I know made you wail. Oh, Jesus. Made you honestly, what's wrong with me? Nope, there's nothing wrong. I like it too. Your third book, Shelby book, Angela, is A Girl is a Half-Forn Thing by Emma McBride, winner of the 2014 Women's Prize for Fiction.

A Girl is a Half-Forn Thing. tells the story of an unnamed young woman's relationship with her brother and the long shadow cast by his childhood brain tumour. Told from her fragmented perspective, McBride brutally provides an intimate insight into the thoughts, feelings and chaotic sexuality of a vulnerable and isolated protagonist. Tell us what made you pick this book today.

I mean, actually, now that you're reminding me what it was about, I'm like, I don't know. I read this on my honeymoon That is deranged And I remember Roy being in the carsey and me Like I could not put it down And I kept devouring it was like

Just the wrong tone in hindsight I'm usually a self-help gal Okay And I thought you know what I'm going to give the self-development A little break on my honeymoon And go a little bookish And I wailed

I wailed I mean and I couldn't put it down It was like I knew It was like a scab. I kept picking. I could not stop. And I don't know.

Like again, even you're describing it. I'm like, wow, is that what that was about? But I think books, films, whatever it is, sometimes we cannot access our own feelings or release our own feelings. And the best art to my mind allows us to grieve on behalf of this character where you're like, okay, releasing things

that you didn't know we're stuck in your hips. You're exercising some muscles that maybe don't get the chance that much. It might prepare you for when you'll need them. You never know. Yeah, and that we maybe can't grieve things for ourselves because we dismiss them or think, oh my God, that's not, you're fine.

And then suddenly you're in somebody else's world and it activates something, somewhere in you that allows for this really, it could have been a come down from the wedding, who knows, in hindsight. But I think, I just remember being like, you have to read this. Roy was like, I don't want to read it

if that's what it does to you. But I, the way she wrote, Mac to your point about like Irish writers, to me this felt like almost the kind of book that would have been on the curriculum when I did my leaving cert, right, where you're like, whoa, I need to

keep, I need to read that a number of times in order for it to get into my head. There's no punctuation. There's no beginning, middle or end of a sentence. There's no paragraphs. It's like this kind of stream of consciousness where you don't know if she's talking or he's talking or is she saying it out loud.

Is it in her head? Is that a dialogue? Again, there's this kind of wild energy and urgency to it that just plants you. All I can see is I'm in the middle of a forest. I don't even know what that, you know, the scene or the moment is but it just transports you I suppose you didn't find that difficult

at the time you was sort of straight in or did it take a while to get used to? It takes a while to get used to and I have recommended this book to people and they were like I couldn't. It's too much it felt like homework whereas I was like oh my God I love how because for me I love

a bit of meditation and I jump on and off that train and often I find myself reading a book and being like five pages in and then going Watch us happen. I've got to go back. Going back from, literally nothing. I was planning the shopping.

I was doing something else. With this, because of the way it's written, in order for you to make any sense, you've really got to be in it. So you're kind of right in there, and I loved that. That's sort of like a meditation in itself. You know, we have all these exercises

that encourage us or force us to focus. And if it's so razor sharp in the fragmented nature of that stream of consciousness, had you in that place. Like we say, you're exercising that muscle. Exactly that. And some of the themes in this book take this sort of unflinching look at the challenges that women face growing up in Ireland.

There's sort of tropes of the ranting Catholic mother. There's the drink, the sexual encounters and the shame associated with them. Do you think it still resonates for women today? Was it very much of a moment? I think it still resonates. I think, you know, like I grew up as a Catholic. My parents, I don't think, would mind me saying that they kind of turn their back at certain points

when, you know, scandals were exposed and they were like, I don't know if we really need to make everyone go to Mass anymore. I'm not sure I bow at this altar. And so, but, you know, it's inherited. It's a Catholic country. And we grew up for many. years and that would have been like really they only kind of um you know stopped I suppose

forcing us to go to mass when we were teenagers you know and so it was it was very present and I remember and I kind of joke about being a kid and kind of exploring sexuality and thinking oh my God God is literally watching he can see what's happening until this do but like a lot of different cultures imagine God in a very different way. I think for Irish

Catholics and Irish women, girls particularly you're like I mean he's literally there watching and judging

and judging and taking note and like you're in trouble so it was kind of this ominous character in the corner while you were

trying to figure out who you were and that you know that is hard to escape, truthfully. So I think there's a lot of unpicking and undoing. And my generation, I do think, have had to do that.

Like, I remember my mum being, so I had a mini skirt. Sorry, this is like slight aside, right? But I, like, loved fashion when I was a kid. And still now. And I still love it, yeah. But I remember having this corduroy cream, miniskirt that I bought and I had a little frayed edge. And I was going out one night and I thought, you know what this needs an inch of it?

Okay. So I didn't want to hack it all together because you never know. So I remember thinking, like what was that stuff Wonderweb that would allow you to hem things? Like a double-sided sticky tape type thing. Exactly. Genius invention. Anyway, it wasn't that. It was sell a tape, but I thought it might do the same thing.

So I brought this skirt up to the ironing board. which happened to live outside of my parents' bedroom, right? And so I ironed this to be shorter. And I came down, I obviously forgot about it while the cellar tape was crisping over. And then I remember getting myself ready, coming down to put on my skirt, nowhere to be seen. Nowhere to be seen.

And I walked into the kitchen. I was like, I don't know how old I was, 17, 18, whatever. I was like, where is my skirt? And my mom was like, what am you talking about? And I said, are you joking? Where is my skirt? Like the whole outfit has been built around it. I was ready to go.

And she said, I've no idea. I thought, oh my God, I'm going to kill you. And she said, who, I don't know where it could be. She said, it could be in a skipping clumsilla. Okay, I was like, excuse me? So anyway, sorry, I actually don't think she revealed where she had put. it until the following day she would not

let me wear the skirt I had to restile myself I went out livid I came back I was like where's my goddamn

skirt and she said it's in a skip in Clunceilla she had chuked the skirt in a bin because she was like you're not going out

in that skirt and I remember thinking that's quite a punchy move but I think in her mind that knee

in that skirt was like asking for trouble or was setting me up for failure or was like not the one and I do think that was inherited

from her very conservative mother going there are certain ways that you need to you know behave in order to stay on the right side of your man upstairs because he's watching he's watching everything it's so clear that your Irishness makes you

a brilliant storyteller like we've talked about the rhythm it's in your nature to to want to tell people what the crack is. Do you think being a reader of Irish literature helps with storytelling and particularly in your work in broadcasting? Oh, I don't know.

I think it probably... Look, the longer... And I speak to people who have moved away from home, I'm very misty-eyed for Ireland. But I'm more misty-eyed the further I am away from it. So it's like, actually, I think books sometimes really make me feel

feel really connected to it in a way that's kind of romantic but brings you right back there but reminds you of the things you love and the things that you don't love so much and so for me yeah I guess it keeps me connected I suppose I mean I remember reading Brooklyn or sorry I remember watching Brooklyn when I first moved to London and oh my God it was like So, I felt so, again, this idea of using something to express myself in a way that emotionally I wasn't able to go, I feel really homesick. I had to feel homesick on behalf of Alish who had gone on the boats to America to find another life.

And so, but I remember weeping, weeping. And my husband coming home and I was like, I just feel, she just went and she never came back. And I was like, I feel like that's me. And he kind of was like, oh my God, honestly unhinged, right? Then he went outside into the kitchen and he came back and he said, I've just checked. He's like, there are 27 flights to Ireland a day. He's no problem. He said literally any time of the day or night, you can go home.

You are not Ailish. You are not on the ships. You are not gone forever. And so I think, yeah, I don't know. I love a bit of pain through an Irish lens you know what

romantically taking it to that place through books I think also can I just say the way you say books is the best it's the best

and it gets me every time I love it I love it yeah I say books I say tour and puer and grass apart from that

you wouldn't know I'm from Newcastle I know but the books always still say it's so lovely but grass because the two girls

are now going they'll somewhat like correct oh hang on have they got southern accents like southern english accents oh interesting they say bath but like you know my little one will be like i'm going to dance and i'm going to what and they'll she'll go dance dance dance i meant dance she knows she knows the change of you yeah yeah well your fourth book that you bought today is trespasses by louise kennedy who's a theme there is nothing special about the day kushler meets Michael, a married man from Belfast in the pub owned by her family. But here, love is never far away from violence.

And this encounter will change both of their lives forever. With themes of duty, desire, and navigating ordinary life in extraordinary times, trespassers explores the complexities of forbidden love, particularly across sectarian divides, and how personal desires can be played out against a backdrop of political turmoil and violence. Another book actually that was shortlisted for the Women's Prize for fiction, Your fourth Irish writer, why do you love this one? I love Louise Kennedy because she's mad as a brush and this feels so at odds with her as a human in many ways

and she's just kind of like this magical force of nature and yet this book has just, again, I don't know why Tender keeps being that word, this beautiful kind of, it's poetic and it's wildly romantic and it's just gorgeous. And it's kind of, I think so often it's a look into the troubles. And that period in time, I think, is depicted in many ways, more so now than it has been in a very long time. But this actually, to me, shows.

And again, it's universal to anywhere where there's, you know, turmoil, political or civil, whatever, that love and everyday family dinah, all of that stuff happens in the backdrop of these things and sometimes we can kind of zoom out and look at that place and make an assumption about the people that inhabit that place. And for me, this is like a Hollywood love story set in Belfast at a time when it was dangerous to be in love. And it's from a female perspective as well. I think, you know, so often when we've read about the troubles, it's focused more on politics or violence rather than, you know, emotional daily life.

Like you say, how important is that? I think it's hugely important because so often in history the female voice is, completely lost. And I think in Irish history, there are so many radically brilliant strong women. And, you know, Kushla in this book is not necessarily that. She's not in, you know, uniform. She's not plotting. But she's, she's a teacher. And she's kind of beautifully holding kids in their most vulnerable state in attempting to navigate this very, very difficult time. And I think she is, I don't know, she's kind of naive in many ways, but very strong. And, you know, it's at that point in her life where she's seeking bigger things. But her world is small because of what's happening. And so she's kind of brave and she's daring to allow herself to love somebody who she shouldn't. love. So it's like a little Romeo and Juliet, you know. But also, I think what you see is this

woman kind of blossoming. So she falls for this older man and he's married and we find out later the kind of particulars of that relationship and why and, you know, somewhat lets him off the hook in ways. But that kind of becomes almost peripheral. You see Kushla who is at home with her mom who's an alcoholic she holds a lot and then she falls for this man who just thinks she's a goddess

and they have these kind of stolen moments and she explores I think her sexuality in a way that was wild of a time and I interviewed Louise about this and I was like talking about your man in the sky looking at what she was up to

and she said I think it was a bit different because he was Protestant I said, actually that's bang on, isn't it? But it was allowing her to be kind of freed, to be a fuller version of herself without shame. And she was very much in control of that narrative and of exploring. And so there was a real kind of strength and power in her as a woman. And for me, I just think it was showing the humanity that, of course, exists.

in everywhere but when you think you know about a place and what people are doing at a certain time that has been very well depicted and then you remember oh yeah people are just living their lives still doing it still falling in love you said a Hollywood love I mean it's just been adapted hasn't it for TV Gillian Anderson Channel 4 do you see yourself as a bit of a purist when it comes to adaptations do you go actually no I'm loyal to the book I'm not going to watch it or do you like to see how it's been changed. I actually think, you know, from a kind of creative perspective when I'm boom, Louise Ken, like that's the dream is for your thing to grow legs and to reach a bigger audience. It's only ever a good thing for the original piece of work. So I would say,

you know, like Marion Keyes, a lot of her stuff has been adapted. I think, yeah, you know, sometimes it goes badly wrong. But ultimately, I think it's probably an upside for. the book, no matter what way it, it goes. We have arrived at your fifth and final. I get what this one is now. Don't you worry. Please give us a bit of light. Thank God you went heavy on the joy at the beginning.

I'm like bleak. I love a like depressive moment. But the thing is, is it depressive or is it allowing us to be full? You know, like a healthy brain feels everything. There's not negative and positive feelings. That all the feelings is how we navigate. navigate them. And I love this idea that we're allowing ourselves to feel. What a beautiful thing. And I do think to that point, the kind of dulling down of the so-called bad emotions only results in dulling down of the big ones too, the good ones too.

So I do think fully feeling the whole spectrum allows for a better life. Well, your fifth book is I feel bad about my neck. And other thoughts on being a woman by Nora Ephron. I love her. We love Nora Ephron here. I feel bad about my neck. It's a collection of, talking about things you might feel. It's a collection of essays by the inimitable Nora Ephron

that uses wit and candor to explore the tribulations of aging from physical maintenance like wrinkles and menopause to reflections on empty nests and life's other challenges With a wry and humorous voice, Efron discusses topics such as relationships, body image, cooking and life in New York, offering honest and relatable insights for women. What makes this your ultimate go-to?

It's funny. The chapters are short. Love that. Love that for us. You can dip in and out of it, but I think she's so razor-sharp in her observations that, again, it's like women's topics, but it's this kind of

there's just a wit and a warmth but there's zero bullshit to how she writes yet it's like wonderfully kind of full in the descriptives and the tangents that she goes off on and I just think it's joy to like devour you've described this book as literal snippets of life advice which I feel

get a grip love is giving Thank you. Your podcast with Vicki Patterson, I think it's brilliant. It's so natural. It's so funny. And you feel like you're one of the gang. It's a group chat, like we said at the beginning.

What inspired it and how you found the experience of working with a friend? Do you know what? I have loved it in ways that I kind of didn't fully imagine. It's weekly. We now do two episodes a week. And so I, there's just a kind of, I look forward to it all the time and we have so much fun

but we go very deep in ways that I really had not mentally prepared for and explore all sorts in the way that you'll know like women's WhatsApp group goes in all directions at all hours of the night

and you know we're multifaceted very complex humans and so I very much enjoy writers who show all of that and equally I think in broadcasting a lot of people like to pop you in a little box and they like to give you a little tagline

and once you sit neatly in there it's easier for them. It's easier for them and you know to a point I get it they're like oh the next it's an easy little wrap up but actually what it does is just kind of completely dilutes the complexity of us and so I do feel very passionately about showing, you know, all of the warts and all, all of the bits.

And so I think Get a Grip does that quite well. And we got a message the other day saying it's giving big cis energy. And I was like, that's the one. You know, so I, you know, I know nothing. But we have a ball doing it. And to be able to work with a friend is lovely. Yeah, really lovely. If you could channel a little bit of Nora F.

front in your life and all work, what would that look like? Do you know what? I've started so I was reading it recently I did think, okay, often I'm like, do you know what? Everyone gives the head about being a woman and it's a real pain in the arts getting your hair coloured and all of the things and I

totally get that and she writes really brilliantly about the hours wasted on like glam right and then I think yeah but like if you're an ugly man you're fucked like you're just stuck do you know what I mean? So like we can complain about it, but they've got nothing.

We've got so many options. We've got so many options. Busterflies, we can be whoever we want to be. Exactly. The world is our oyster, okay? But with that, comes a lot of wasted time, and I realized I was like getting my nails done, okay? I had gotten into this habit of getting my nails done all the time. Like I was living my New York life, right? When did it even become a thing that we all got our nails done, right? I think in the last few years, I remember us.

switch. Honestly, because it didn't happen before. But it happened in New York many years ago and she talks

about it. But now it's here and like, what are you even doing if you're not getting shalak or like a talon with art or whatever?

And I thought, you know what? What I'm going to do is like that feels like quite a radical thing to go, no, I'm going to

take two hours out of my every two weeks back and not get my nails done anymore. So don't look too closely. I'm sorry.

She hasn't had jail in a while and I'm not mad about it. And you'll be healthier for it, actually. Healthyer for, apparently, we'd be healthier for it. So I think there are ways that we, sometimes it's more so just stopping and going, am I

like, have I made this decision consciously or have I just accepted that this is what has to be done? And so yeah, I think there's so much pressure on women to present a certain way to do all of these things and we just take it for granted that's part of the gig.

And I think it's good to have a little moment to question whether the choices you make on a daily basis are made by you for you or are absorbed. I am now running through in my head every decision that I think I've made. I'm asking, did I make that or did someone make it for me? It's tricky. The lines are blurry and we're bombarded all the time and you're like, oh, just trying to keep up. And then you go, I'm going to take two hours back. Yeah. What will I do? Go for a walk, maybe.

Read a book. Read a book. A long one? Yeah. Yeah. A book that makes you wail. If you will. That's what you want.

Divine. I love it. But at least it's your choice. It's your choice, babe. And that's the key. Well, on the advice to read a book. That brings us. Angela.

Where to? To the end of our chat. I do have one more question for you. I have to ask you. Tell me. If you could choose one book from your list of five, as a favourite, which would it be in why? Wow. Do you know, I think it would be Soldier-Sailer, or is it Sailor Soldier?

Soldier-Sailer. Soldier-sailer. Because I think it's such a difficult, almost shameful admission to say that you struggled in that moment that's supposed to be natural and in. inherent and known. So to articulate with such wild vividness, that picture is a gift, not just for new mothers, but for people supporting new mothers. And I think it is just an incredibly beautiful book that will stay with you. I go away from this podcast always feeling like I've learned something or I've gained something,

whether it be advice or just feeling a little less alone. Today I genuinely feel so so abundant with little nuggets of wisdom. Genuinely, bits of advice, things that I'm going to take into my day, into my week and into my life. So thank you so much, Angela's going to be wonderful. Thank you for having me. You're good at this. You should do this more often. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Boot Shelfy podcast, brought to you by Bailey's and produced by Birdline Media.

Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. See you next time.