Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep25: Bookshelfie: Self Esteem

Episode Date: December 30, 2025

Rebecca Lucy Taylor, AKA Self Esteem talks to Vick about pushing back against the male gaze, the healing power of her art and how to carry on as a female music artist in your 40s.  Rebecca is one of the UK’s most exciting breakout musical stars of the past decade. Performing as Self Esteem, she rose from cult favourite to mainstream hero following the huge success of her empowering, truth-telling 2021 single, I Do This All The Time. Her trademark lyricism and razor-sharp wit led to a Mercury Prize nomination for her second solo album, Prioritise Pleasure, and was crowned the Guardian and Sunday Times Culture’s Album of the Year. Her latest album, A Complicated Woman, received the Visionary Award at the 2025 Ivor Novello Awards, praised for its ‘fearless, genre-defying songwriting that is reshaping the sound and substance of modern pop’.  Her first book, also titled A Complicated Woman, is a Sunday Times bestseller, taking readers on a poignant, witty journey using notes, lyrics, and observational prose that gets to the heart of being a woman in the world today.  Rebecca’s book choices are: **The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood **Women Who Run with The Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estès **All Fours by Miranda July **Hunchback by Saou Ichikawa **Milk Fed by Melissa Broder Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize’s Bookshelfie Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is the biggest celebration of women's creativity in the world and has been running for over 30 years.  Listen back to all previous seasons of the podcast for even more book recommendations, and subscribe now to be the first to hear when we return for season nine.  You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

I've been reading it by torchlight so as not to wake the baby. You're like, do you need to catch? I just feel that, you know. You just pay the metre. Just thought it would be a nice way to read it. Yeah. Yeah. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction bookshelfy podcast supported by Bayleys.

Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction. Sharing our creativity. our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks inspiring and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list.

Today I'm joined by Rebecca Lucy Taylor. Rebecca is one of the UK's most exciting breaker. I'm going to actually say just best musical stars of the past decade. Performing as self-esteem, she rose from cult-favorite to mainstream a hero following the huge success of her empowering, truth-telling, 2021 single, I do this all the time. The trademark lyricism and razor-sharp wit led to a Mercury Prize nomination for her second solo album, Prioritized Pleasure, and was Crown the Guardian and Sunday Times Culture's album of the year. Her latest album, A Complicated Woman, received the Visionary Award at the 2025 Ivor Novello Awards, praised for its fearless, genre-defying songwriting that is reshaping the sound and substance of modern pop. Her first book, also titled A Complicated Woman, which is sitting beside me,

is a Sunday Times bestseller taking readers on a poignant, witty journey using notes, lyrics and observational prose that gets to the heart of being a woman in the world today. Welcome to the podcast. I'm sorry, is it awkward to sit through? I'm always like, who's that you're talking about? Is you? Sunday Times bestseller That's the first time someone said it back to me That's very funny

And it's true I know I mean No one in the team Thought that was gonna happen So no It was never even talked about And I was like of course it's not

And then they Yeah And then they said that I think I was like number 10 Or something But it don't matter Because I can just say that Yeah

I've been reading it by torchlight So it's not to wake the baby I was like Do you need to I just feel that You just pay the meter It would be a nice way to read it. It's one of those, though.

I've got my copy sitting next to me and basically every page is folded over because every time there's something that I relate to that I'm like, yes, I've felt that I've been there that speaks to me, it has to be made note of and it turns out it's basically every page. I know. I'm sorry to hear that for you, but yes. It's fine. I mean, congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you. How did the experience of writing a book differ to songwriting? It was, I sort of did it so sporadically. Obviously quite a lot of it is brain to iPhone note, no, no, no interference. So sometimes I feel a bit bad saying right when I wrote it. There's a central narrative that I did sit and write. And I've really loved it. Mainly, I mean, it's basic answer, but doesn't have to rhyme, doesn't have to get out to the chorus.

That was really fun. It's like complete control. But I did write it all with this like, I'm not a writer, so this all, you know, nothing will ever happen. And then the fact that I, after prioritised pledge came out, I got a book deal. And I was like, I've got just the thing for you. And I'm really proud of how sort of weird it is and how nonlinear and disparate it all is because I feel like that's the sort of book I'd like to read. So, yeah, it was easier and more freeing than writing songs.

But now I reckon if I'm writing another one. You know, I mean, I think it's just that it was new. It's just a new form, so I enjoyed it. Like, once I, once I'm, once I'm, well, if I start writing as a for a living, I'll be like, oh, this is what I'm so tortured. But having that balance alongside what you do, because you go on to, you're doing a complicated woman to her, which I do have to say, my mum discharged herself from hospital to go and see in Newcastle. Is she all right now, though? She survived. She survived. But I also think that is fair enough. She said music's the best medicine We were all raging at her The whole family on the group WhatsApp Where did she come to?

Newcastle Oh my God That was a good one though No well it's weird Oh bless her Did they look after her Did she stand on? She danced

She'll always find the strength to dance But I was gutted Because I had just given birth And couldn't come And I was like My mum's getting to go to this to her And I'm not What is this madden?

But to go on a book tour in the middle of an actual tour, you've got that balance. You've got both sort of happening in tandem. Does that feel like you get to exercise all different parts of yourself? It definitely has been, yeah, good for me. They help each other. Same with the acting stuff. Like when they all inform a sort of, maybe this is about my personality,

but I'm always like I'm ready to do with the other one when I'm, you know. I love that the book has come out so close to the album and the shows and it just means you have this like take home more in depth look at what I've just been trying to tell you anyway which I think is like quite cool but yeah I've got another idea for something else I've got another idea for an album I've got you know I want to do those three disciplines just as and when I want to now would be the nice thing yeah just keep it moving yeah I feel I definitely feel that when you get bored of what not bored but you're ready to do something else, the fact that you've got all these different sides to yourself.

And we've got to mention as well, I think the last time I saw you was in Cabaret in the West End. There's also the acting. Yeah, yeah. That's like I've touched it up before. I really have to stop sitting on podcast talking about it, but the music industry being in the sort of state that it's in and the unpredictability of it and the sort of relentless, bad odds, I call it, like of working as hard as I do and maybe nothing happening. I actually spoke to like a music specialist therapist because I was like, what shall I do? And as I was talking, I was talking about these other things I was doing

and it was basically like diversify your craft. I was like, oh yeah, I've done that, right, okay, great. So like accidentally, alongside just because I fancied it and I'm sort of a, as a kid I would have done anything like I stayed behind for every club no matter what it was. So yeah, I'm like really happy and proud like really, you know, I don't know, it's like feels doable now for the rest of my life rather than like holding out for some hit, which I'll obviously have the second that I don't

want it. No, honestly, we could talk about this for hours. This is not the point of the podcast, but the current situation in the music industry, for anyone listening who isn't as familiar, you could write objectively the best song in the world ever and it might not chart, but you could get some AI to make 15 seconds of something like, quite rubbish, but it does well on TikTok, you know, one. Like, you can't strategize around that. So you've got to do what you like. Yeah, do what you enjoy.

It's quite freeing, but I like, yeah, I loved writing. And I was on Harry Hill's podcast the other day, and I was talking about it. And he said, well, it's just complete control, isn't it? And I was like, oh, yeah. It is. And do you feel like you're reading life and your writing life feed each other? or do they sort of operate as different creative spaces? They definitely feed each other.

Like reading for me, it comes in and out. Like I'll be obsessed with it for a bit and then it'll, when I'm very busy, it's impossible. I don't know about how you read. Yeah. Plenty. Well, obviously. Yeah, do this.

Do you like books? I just want, do you like, right, of an evening. Yeah. Pre-baby. Pre-baby. Would you sit on the sofa reading? Yes. I'm finding it harder now.

As I said, with the torchlight. Yeah, yeah. But it can be an escape or it can be a grounding. Yeah. It can go either way. Like sometimes you read, like I'm finding with your book, I'm reading it and I'm feeling seen, whereas sometimes I enjoy that I'm not feeling seen by reading. And that's great as well.

Yeah, exactly. I realize now it's, now things are slowing down for me. It's obviously just some sort of, you know, diagnosable thing, but I haven't been reading books and I can't and I can't get ideas. I don't want any ideas at the moment because I'm like, I can't go through the process of trying to realize anything. So if you read a book, do you fear that an idea might come and then you won't be able to resist acting on it?

That's why I watch Love Island. Right, yeah. And I'm married at first time because I'm like... Actually, I think you've just diagnosed a thing in me. I've just realized that's why I watch Love is Blind UK. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Because it's true relaxation. It's true relaxation because there's nothing I need to do with my mind.

See, like I talk about this a lot. My therapist was like, well, you know, you could knit. So I'm literally, I said to my current metal lover, it was like, what do you want for Christmas? I was like, well, I'd like to start knitting. Do with that what you will. So we'll see. But yeah, it's just phone addiction and everything, isn't it really? But reading is too inspiring for me.

So I have to sort of stop doing it sometimes. But then, like on tour, there's so much downtime on. tour where you can't go anywhere else. No one's going to ask you to do anything. I read more when I'm away and things like that. But if I'm in the house, I don't know why I can't read a book on. It's a good podcast. Come on. Well, listen, we're going to talk about the books that have inspired. You've looked through your list and they all seem to have had quite an impact on who you are, who you've become. Your first bookshelfy book is The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. The Handmaid's Tale is an iconic dystopian novel set in the Republic of Gilead, a totalitarian

in theocracy that has overthrown the U.S. government. The story follows Offred, a handmade, one of the very few fertile women forced intersexual servitude to bear children for the ruling elite due to a widespread fertility crisis. The novel explores themes of oppression, reproductive rights, and female resistance as Offred navigates her restricted life whilst recalling her past and is widely recognized as a modern classic. When were you introduced to The Handmaid's Tale? We did it at a level. A-level English literature. So I always liked English and really got into it,

but it was all a bit intimidating because it goes up such a level when you're doing it. And there was a smaller class, and there was this new teacher, and she was obviously quite a feminist, which I'd not, like, encountered much, actually. It sounds like I was born a million years ago, but really, like, in the early 2000s, we'd still not figured out, like, feminism as a general thing.

And that teacher felt very excited about doing this. And page one, I was like, oh, my God. Because, I mean, my answer is very similar for a lot of these books, really. It was just anything that's led me closer to the realization of why I feel so frustrated and why life's felt so different for me from my brother or my, you know, the boys I've been in bands with and things like that. Like, I genuinely didn't realize it was any different. So this book is so, obviously, like, It's now sort of common, it's a sort of phrase, isn't it?

People say my show looks, is handmade's tail. Well, the aesthetic, the costume of the most recent show. Yeah, well, it wasn't directly that, but I guess what I was referencing was sort of like pilgrim uniform that women would have to wear to sort of, and that's obviously what I inspired Margaret Atwood, but it's just, it's so in our, I don't know, it's like in popular culture, it's just assumed that. it's a representation of like oppression and oh god what's the word like having to behave and it yeah I just I reread it um you know a few years ago and just can't believe at 17 I was like got the opportunity to read this and study it like and I had this teacher that was so now I see with reflection like she was she was she'd be a self-esteem fan do you know what I mean Which I'm really grateful for because like it's amazing that sort of the torch paper was lit when I was sort of that young.

You described it in your notes as phase one of the penny dropping for you. And it's so true though, isn't it? There's that moment, that book where you've been studying books for however long and, you know, it's all academic. And then all of a sudden you go, oh my God, there's something I actually care about. Yes. I actually care about something. And here it is on the pages of this book. Do you remember those first feminist ideas in the book

that really spoke to you at that age? It would be like, I think overall just the idea that the, like dystopian future, right? That's always quite exciting and fun. And then, you know, I very viscerally imagine myself in that. And the fact that the book is right out the gate is a given that women, this is the role of women, no matter what

and there's no I think there's no other there's no women in in any other role than to try and do this pure subordinates and yeah I remember just being like

oh that is what would happen isn't it and genuinely I was that naive I guess but and then the sort of the way they fight back the way they are smart

with fighting back like the I remember sort of and the sisterhood of it and then also I was very young 17 you know I've always been quite sort of far behind in like life so anything to do with you know they're basically being like sexually assaulted and the horror of that like that age

and now you know and now we know in the world how often that happens to us like it's it was like frightening but revealing and good for a teenager to sort of yeah like rose tinted glasses came off about the world yeah when you have that sort of awakening it just it is so deep rooted that it can really pave the path for you going forward so how how did that awakening um influence the very personal often quite boundary pushing themes that you explore in your own work yeah i think i think from then onwards with in different degrees of like phase one of the you know i still for a long time i changed my behavior and i would please sort of the male gaze and things like that um but i everything about self-esteem has been has been about admitting that and

healing that and in doing that hopefully sort of helping other people to reject it like I think like anything that comes on my mouth I feel like it needs to do something to heal the part of me that used to believe in all that and therefore others like I'm honestly constantly just trying to say what I wish I'd known at 15 16 and it just continued. I will say, so there was a moment, I would say, it was probably in July. I was pretty close to giving birth. And I can only describe what it was experiencing was sort of imposter syndrome in my own body. And I listened to your album. And the lyric, I deserve to be here. I was driving. I was like seeing in the top of my voice, I was like, I deserve to be here. You do. And I really, honestly, I was crying my eyes up, but I needed to hear it so much. So when you say self-esteem is healing for me, but also it's for others, too.

It truly was, it was an experience. It makes me so, I mean, it's, happy's a weird word for saying, I'm glad you cried, but I, I am. And it makes me feel so much less lonely. And I still, everything I'm still trying to do. is for the younger me that, honestly, I don't want to swear on a nice book podcast. No, you can, it's absolutely fine. Just all the bullshit, like it on relentless. And the fact that it sort of connects like all of us in the way that it does is like shocking but beautiful.

Yeah, so much of the Hamas tale is about the expectations placed on women the way those pressures can become deeply into. internalized as well. We do it to ourselves. We do it all the time. The way women are expected to be everything all at once, whether it's obedient, desirable, pure. We're supposed to be powerful. Then you feel guilty if you have a boyfriend. Yeah. That's not cool, that's not cool. Am I anti-feminist? And we see these contradictions. They're played out in the music industry, in how others view us, how we view ourselves. Do you feel like you've got to a place where you've managed to undo that conditioning?

A bit. A bit, all of this comes in waves. I've had like this year I've been more sort of under the wave of my depression that can come than I have been in quite a few years actually. And I'm unpicking it now. I'm like crawling out the other side going, what happened there then? The trigger certainly was like censoring myself and shutting up for others, you know,

a lot of pressure on a third album, a lot of like, about 20% of the album I wasn't like totally happy with. But I thought, you know, I listened to the people high above saying it was good. So I was like, let's go, you know, things like that, like really not, really knocked me off. So I'm still very capable of going, not taking my own advice, very much so. But on the other side, I realized recently, I had an interview actually, and it was a male journalist who was, because obviously I'm, I'm bisexual and I have a song that says about like, don't worry if you've not got married and had children and you live in the house, you know.

And he was like, you worried that your fans are going to, you know, be upset with you if you because I've got a nice boyfriend now and the house it's a flat it's a two-bed flat so little but I have got home

and if I had a baby like what what would that mean would I be would I lose my fans and I thought shut up no come on

it's just like what I'm not a basic reading of what I'm trying to do and I was like I realize you know it's not what all the only thing I'm ever

on my soapbox about is like, just let women do whatever they want. And I couldn't believe me. You were saying it. Because then I was like, oh God, first time I'd thought that. I was like, okay, so what am I going to do? Change my life and the things that feel all right for me right now because I don't want to like upset my fans that were.

Like, my fans are smarter than that. Like, yeah. Listen, we're allowed to have a nice time. That's sort of the point at this stage. Well, on the subject of women being allowed to do whatever they want. We move on to your second book, Shelby book, which is women who run with the wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. For centuries, the wild woman has been repressed by a male oriented value system, which trivialises women's emotions. Using a combination of time-honoured

stories and contemporary casework, Estes reveals that the wild woman within us is innately healthy, passionate and wise, unfolding rich intercultural myths, fairy tales, folk tales and stories to help over 2 million women reconnect with this powerful inner energy. You're an excellent company because Nana Cherry also chose this book when she came on the podcast. Oh, she's so cool and wise.

What made you pick this one? It's always my... I always say it's my favourite book when I get asked what's my favourite book. In 2012, I had a particularly dreadful relationship that meant I had to move home. Real nasty bastard, you know, made me go crazy. very, very, what we now know to be like narcissistic, emotionally abusive sort of thing.

But again, I had no idea. So I moved back to Sheffield and then I went to, I would be going out in Sheffield and met a load of people that were at art school. And that changed everything and they were, because I didn't go to uni. I sort of missed out on any, like all the sort of pretentious, Feminism 101, I was, again, wasn't sort of available to me, not pretentious, know, I mean, like, oh, you haven't read, kind of, we're around all these art students were all kind of amazing and smart, and one of them suggested that book to me. And, God,

it was, it's just every page, like, exactly like what you said, like, it's like allowing that part of yourself to feel not the, and that's not the bad bit. Like, the wild person inside you, the wolf inside you, is not the problem. And I had lived all of my life. Like, in my whole childhood was like, I cried every day because I was emotional about something every day. I was hysterical all the time because I was a hyper-emotional child. Obviously, my parents were like, please don't do that,

which it wasn't bad parenting. Like, what else? I was probably very annoying. But so my whole childhood had been like, you know, and I had a very sort of brother that never felt anything, never, never was upset. I don't remember him being upset, you know. And then my teens and my school was like that.

School was really like, shut up. And then the band I was in was very like, please shut up. So I'd had, you know, two decades, three decades of feeling like the problem was my emotions. And making yourself smaller. And that book is the first time. I think I read about how it's physiologically natural and gives power to that. it was just, it's written in such a way that it's just like a given that you would have these feelings inside yourself

and it's society in the system that has sort of mythology, sort of sold it back to you as a bad thing. This book helped you accept the wildness inside of you but also to realise it's okay, totally okay, like you're not the problem. We don't need to be tamed. What has that then led to that realization? It really, honestly, not became what self-esteem was about.

I was still in the band at that point. I came out. I had a relationship with a woman for the first time that, like, I would tell my, I taught my parents about, all these kind of things. Not that that's like a wild thing. I was wild. I kissed a girl. But I became myself.

And I stopped apologising for it and saw the inequality in my work space, I guess. and I started making art I was you know I had my potential artist's face thanks to these people I met in Sheffield which really unlocked what self-esteem was and all of it you know

all of it came from finding out that this bit that I honestly always thought one day you won't be like this and like one day you'll grow up and you won't feel these emotions and you won't be hysterical and you won't be angry.

And I let it all up be, because it is all of me. It's what we are all made up of. And I let it happen. And that turned into, you know, what's changed my life and what my life is all about now. Bayleys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books

into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. In your own book, you write in fragments as well. You embrace the self as unfinished. Like you say, you're not going to grow out of this. You lean into it and you realise that that's where the richness is. how does acknowledging your own wildness in this way

help you break out of identities or expectations that once felt quite fixed on you? Yeah. Well, honestly, I've got to stop going on about him but like I am in a nice relationship and I don't, and I actively did not want to be. And there was no way I was going to be. Even like the idea that I'm like, maybe,

maybe I'd have a maybe, maybe I'd like that. That feels like a real defiant thing Because it's not because there's an expectation to at all. Just because you want to. Yeah. I was like, and I obviously, I took it very far my rejection of expectation. I made a whole career out of it and a life out of it. I put it first.

My whole life has been about rejecting the expectations that's put on me. And then it so weirdly meant that like sometimes when I like have a nice day and cook a meal. I love cooking. I'll cook a meal and I'll hang out with my nice male lover. And I'll watch a film and I'll go to bed with the dog, you know, and him. He is there too. And I'll go, this is nice. And I choose this.

I'm not, all my relationships with, you know, with any gender before have been forced into this like, but eventually we have to be monogamous and have a house and have a baby. Because what else is what else are we doing? was so not that, but no. That's what happens. Reverse psychology. Honestly, we were talking the other night. We were like, oh my God, we're married with a child.

And we, both of us had got so okay with the idea of that never, ever happening. And that was, I was fine with it. In fact, I really actively embraced it, that I would be single forever. And that's cool. And that's when it's happening, we're like, oh, we're a cliche. No, I know. But no, it's just because we like each other.

Yeah, I should put together in my head just now. I was like, that is like, that is the most radical, more radical than anything else I've done, is that, like, you know, working, working out with, you know, a person who's worth working things out with, you know, mad. Yeah. But who knows what's next? And that's sort of the theme of your third book, which is All Fours, by Miranda July.

I'm so glad you've chosen this one. Shortlisted for the 2025 Women's Prize for Fiction, All Fors tells the story of one woman's quest for a new kind of freedom after impulsively embarking on a cross-year. country road trip from L.A. to New York without her husband and child. But 30 minutes after setting off, she spontaneously exits the freeway, beds down in a nondescript motel, and embarks on the journey of a lifetime. Now, you've described this, Rebecca, as a perfect book. What was your first reaction to all fours when you started reading it? What drew you in? I mean, I'm a massive Miranda July fan anyway. I've read everything she's put out.

I, me, you and everyone we know her movie. Again, I saw that at like 18 and that was a big, like, that made me want to be an artist. So, I straight, you know, there's no way I'm going to open a Mirange July book and not have a good time. But I just couldn't believe how amazing it was. And it just keeps being amazing. I can't. This is really bad podcasting. It's just really amazing.

It's just really good. But I, just the way. the storytelling is like gripping and all she's doing is stopping at a meritel like even that is and she decorates this room to make it exactly like that would just resonate

you know I felt seen by that and she has like a 20K prize to go to New York and like see things and do things with I think it's 20K maybe I think it's 20K but she spends it all on decorating this one motel room and at not one point really does the protagonist second guess that and I there was

something about how I do love the I love this in film and TV and stuff as well where somebody is just there's a goal and they just they just go to we don't have to go into why or we don't have to I hate having to watch someone like go decide whether or not they're going to do something I just I just loved it and then of course it carries on there's so much sexual tension in it that's so graphic without and and so realistic I love anything like that I love like weird sexy bits in books it's so weird and sex it's like me and my friends all read it at the same time on holiday and we're all sitting there you're reading what I'm repeating the amount of people I have bought it for like the amount and also like I love a I love to read a book about a mad

woman feeling crazy but she The character is, you know, she's 40 something relatively like got all the things that, you know, my previous expectations were the right, you know, settled, done. Even she's like that. She's like it's, and her, this just impetus to just like throw a bomb in it. And it just felt so unusual. Like we don't really see it.

There's like Shirley Valentine's, I guess. And then, and this one is done, I don't know. no, there's just something really fair enough about it. And then, yeah, the bit, the sexy bits and the way, there's an element of like, I'm going to do this before it's too late, because physiologically, she is, the menopause is coming for her, right? And that's something I haven't even started to consider and probably need to, you know, and I just thought it was brilliant writing.

There's, brilliant writing. There's this refusal, and I love it, this refusal to. sanitise womanhood, whether it's sex or aging or madness or yearning. And Miranda July's writing is often described as sort of seductive, a little odd, emotionally raw. Has reading all fours changed or developed the way you think about these sort of deeply human, often taboo themes? You mentioned the menopause there. Does it change the way you apply these themes in your work or just live your life. Yeah, I mean, it really did. It's almost like things become trendy, right? So like I'm, you know, a few years ago self-esteem. It was like, oh, it's feminist pop in a way we've not heard it before. And then you

sort of now, I think we see here a lot of it. And then not that I made it up, but like it starts to be in cultural, culturally, we start to be able to talk about like the Me Too movement, right? Then gave us a chance to say to a builder when he cat calls his, no. Yeah. You know, I joke like, you can't do that anymore. It's not the good old days. You know, so we get, it becomes part of mainstream culture. And menopause is not part of mainstream culture, I don't think.

It's still this, it's used as a joke. It's like a comedy thing about women sweating. Which all of these things were before we used to talk about periods, for example. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think things would change a little bit. But it's really incremental, but when I get very upset about everything and hopeless, I remember that even in my lifetime, even in my lifetime, there's a marked difference between the way men would be able to speak to me.

When I think about when I'm within the band and the way people spoke to me, that wouldn't happen anymore. That is progress. So the menopause, yeah, it's made me quite excited to, because I'm 40 next year right so like trying to be a pop star who's only just getting going in their career at 40 and a woman

you know like people say see look at see her and see her let her face be shown yeah exactly it was like they literally got a child to replicate her like there is obviously there are examples of women that do stay visible but it's

it's a battle to look as young as possible and this book is the sort of grains, the seeds of something I need, which is like to be able to boldly and confidently talk about my life and the next 20 years and whatever the hell that's going to be like and it can still be sexy and relatable and exciting and raw and not just, I just feel like women have had to just shut up. Like, the fact I don't know much about the menopause is crazy, you know.

my mum just had down and gone on with it like mad aging as a woman in the public eye is I mean especially as a pop star I think there's one of the notes in your book actually where you've too old for radio one which listen you did me a solid you helped me out there you like me made you my tune of the week several times my sister thank you so much but it's a hugely confronting thing as well because you look at yourself

don't you? You've talked about having recently frozen your eggs to give yourself a bit more time as well. Do you think we all need to be a bit more open as women? Actually I feel bad about even asking this because why is it on us? We need to be more open

to help each other. Yeah, I think so. I think like there's a version of the next bit of my career where I try and look younger and I put music out that doesn't talk about how my body is changing all my life. Or there's a version where I carry on doing what I'm doing,

which is very sort of confessional. It feels like, I mean, we'll see. It might flop, but the, the, it's important. It feels like extremely important for me to not start hiding. And not, I mean, everyone, it's important for everyone. I mean, now I've got a tiny little bit of a audience that if I, you know, I suddenly became a bigger deal all over the world and I looked different

and I had access to all the things to make me look younger and cooler it would feel like a massive betrayal so yeah it feels not on that's on me personally but I think across all media like please just like let us see it more let us see women more

that aren't even even still the age gaps of relationships in every film like I get like because I'm doing acting stuff now I get tapes for I'm mom at least at least mom like my Levi in my band who's the most like stunningly beautiful tiny unbelievable modelesque thing gets like mate because she's like even even we're still casting like the lead woman is the most exquisitely beautiful slim young thing ever yeah that's still and we all accept it

I'd love to see something where it's like a 45 year old woman is the gorgeous you know thing objective desire so yeah I'm really ranting but yeah it's not up to us

it's not up to us but I think it's I guess what I'm trying to say is like there is a part of me the part of me that wants to be like as sort of big and famous and rich and successful as possible knows that it's a bad

it's bad business for me to baldly now talk about the next 20 years of my life um but it's a if even if the devil said here you could look 28 and you can suddenly be considered a huge global contemporary cool artist i don't think i do it i'm i'm a i used to i think i've got to be like a i don't matter i've got to go i've got to do it because we've got i can't i can't not do want to mention actually Miranda Jelai is this incredible multidisciplinary artist. You mentioned that she's a film director as well as an author, screenwriter, actress, live performance artist, as is the protagonist of all fours. As a very multifaceted, multi-talented, creative yourself, and if anyone hasn't seen a self-esteem show, like, just so good.

It's so engrossing, so exciting. And also you get so creative with all the different facets of it. Shout out to the Meadowhall boobs, blasphemy. Being able to flex all those muscles, being older, being wiser, it's an asset. Yeah, surely. Yes. That's the thing that's, that's, there's this, because I've made music as my full-time career since I was 18, you know,

it there i realized recently there has been a number there's a clock in the artwork of complicated woman because i have subconsciously had this timer that's going to stop like it is and we are almost out of time on my music career so that what used to be this like building and making building blocks towards you know what will be a headlining glastonbury level career it takes you know a decade to be an artist big enough to do that suddenly like over the last two years

I was like it suddenly feels impossible suddenly feels extremely unlikely and I couldn't again it's naive and stupid but I couldn't work out what it was until I know some thinking I was like it's because I feel like my life's about to be over that's how it's severe it is

no one is telling me this no no label executive has said uh oh but you just feel it I feel it culturally. I feel it from, you know, we've got feedback. My fan base is too old for Radio One. Is that what they said? That's the feedback I was given.

And I was like, but that's why the younger girlies need to hear this though. Yeah, exactly. I've just absorbed it and believed it. And that's why I'm like, it's been a rough year going, well, this is it then. This is the end. and obviously now you're live on your podcast I'm working out that it can't be

it shouldn't be and it can't be but I've figured it out when I watched the blur documentary that was when I found out because I watched the blur documentary I thought they look so fucking cool David Alvan is so cool it still seems like

the most relevant thing in the world and I was like can you imagine four women at the same age also they're just like drinking booze and smoking fags all the way through and I was like imagine Before women's smoking fags on a documentary, they wouldn't look cool.

They'd be like, oh, God, they shouldn't be doing that. There is just, like, unbelievable amounts of... It's a double standard. Completely. The perception of a older woman. I know we know this. I know it's been in the zeitgeist for a bit about, like, you know, women not being allowed to age or whatever. But I don't think we've dug in enough about how bad that is and how much it's,

sort of, it feels like it's like shortened my life. Like, I feel like now, got to go away and not be perceived visually. Please don't do that. I won't. I can't, but it's, isn't it mad? It absolutely, man, it hits you like a ton of bricks. Yeah. Well, we're not doing that right. No, no, no, no, but right now, we're going to leave that thought there.

Right. And we're going to move on. Because I don't want you to go away. No, and let's talk about your fourth book, Shelby book. Rebecca, which is hunchback by Sao Ichikawa, translated by Polly Barton. Born with a congenital muscle disorder, Shaka Isawa lives most of her life online from the limits of her care home. She studies, tweets and posts outrageous stories on an erotica website. One day, a new male carer reveals he's read it all. Her response, an indecent

proposal, written by the first disabled author to win Japan's most prestigious literary award and acclaimed instantly as one of the most important Japanese novels of the 21st century. Huntback is a subversive and unflinching look at disability, ableism and sexuality, prompting questions about consent, desire and the human need for autonomy. Tell us why you've chosen this as one of your choices today. I just, it was so, it's short, it's really short, and I bought it on this last tour. and it's really sexy but in a really like

sort of medical way again it's like sex that's not sanitised which I enjoyed it's almost like Derren is it 40 or meta like it she discusses how the character can't hold she can't hold a book to read it because of her disability

and has a book scanner And you're sort of reading it, holding it, realizing the privilege of that. Like, it's just, it's incredible, it's incredible how she writes and makes her point without sort of bashing you over the head and sort of telling you you're bad kind of thing. Like it's, it's so, so clever and made me think so much about the privilege I have. and the character is so defiant. She's like a hero. But it's, I don't want to spoil it, but she's confident. And like, how holds the power, I think, in the whole book.

Yeah, I just thought it was amazing. It's beautiful. I'm, like, waiting on all her other stuff to come to the park. You describe the way she writes, and I know you said, your notes that you can sort of smell and feel and you physically experience this book, which I know is a dream when you're creating shows as well. How did this book spark or shape that vision? It really inspired me.

And I enjoyed it. Every time I read something or watch something that is like you can smell it, like you will, like you are, whether you want to or not. it just reminds me how important it is to make my work like that. Yeah, it's not sanitising. And another thing I think women have to do more than men, but making an audience comfortable doesn't have to be the M.O. Like, I loved it.

When it comes to not sanitising these subjects and themes, it's also a book where it refuses to turn into a love story I have that happy ending love story kind of thing going on that we're so used to. And that sort of plays into not necessarily making or having your M.O. to be making your audience comfortable. In your own work, how do you navigate the pressure to resolve things? Really neat. Yeah. I think mostly because I haven't. I don't. I always have one for in a, in a post. what and the puddle is uh you uh I know I love it one foot is always in like but I don't know though really yes yeah as preachy as I can get and it's like don't do this do that or like

but that could change I did a Q&A at the South Frank Centre like 2,000 people about my book with Dolly Alderton and there was a Q&A section at the end and the amount of times I just answered I don't know it's like in the book says an oracle on the front I think it's really important to allow yourself to change or evolve your opinions, find out something new and therefore change. And also, as someone who's grown up with this, again, I had this stop clock that's stopping in terms of my career. And I have a very, you know, even, you know, the idea of a relationship that's always felt rigid and something I won't be able to do. therefore something I couldn't do.

And there is always this idea that eventually I won't feel bad anymore and everything will be sorted and fine. And it's so not true. I mean, almost every song I write says something about there being another hill at the bottom of the top of the next hill you find. I'm like, I must come up with a new one for that. But yeah, it's important to, mainly to remind myself all the time. because to tie things up neatly

it gives it again it's a betrayal because that's not what life is I know when I do this all the time came out and there's all this chat around being the sort of modern wear sunscreen but it's true it's like do this

or don't whatever it's up to you and I don't know but that's life yeah yeah I think we've been fair I certainly this system and society fed me a pretty clear idea of what I should be like and so I

all my work I think is just sort of tried to readdress the balance of that but that doesn't mean that you're I think when I was younger like my mate's getting married when we were like 30 and I used to be a bit like because I ultimately just was so sad

that that won't be my life I guess I was like I'm realizing now my disdain for things is only based in a fear what was only based in fear and sort of immaturity I really can't stress enough

how much I just think everyone should just do whatever they want and I you know and I probably me on podcast five years ago being like about people's life choices and I learn you know

I've eaten some humble pie and I think everyone should be open to that pie I think so. I recently realized everyone's just insane, just going about their insane lives, justifying it, however they need to. Do you, hon?

That's why I'm immune to the day. People go like, I can't go on Instagram because everyone's showing me their perfect lives. And I'm like, yeah, but we all know it's not. Yeah, we know, it's okay. It's okay. Let someone post that, you know, that. I don't have to caveat joy with misery every time.

Do you know? Yeah, yeah. As I said before, trying to have a nice time. Yes. I've been having a very nice time, actually. And I'm on to your fifth and final book now. I know we've arrived at Milkfed. Oh, yes.

By Melissa Broda. Rachel is a 24-year-old lapsedew who has made calorie restriction her religion. By day, she maintains an illusion of control by way of obsessive food rituals. At night, she pedals nowhere on the elliptical machine. Then Rachel meets Miriam. young Orthodox Jewish woman intent upon feeding her, pairing superlative emotional insight with unabashed vivid fantasy. Melissa Broda tells a tale of appetites of physical hunger, of sexual desire, of spiritual longing. Milk fed is a tender and riotously funny meditation on love,

certitude, and the question of what we are all being fed. This is a book that you say you always recommend to people. What makes it so recommendable? I just got goosebumps. It's so good. Again, it's a few things. One is it's just written really, really well and you, it's like you turn their page because you really want to know what's happening, which is an overlooked thing.

You know, it's still important when you're reading a book to make it like that. Also, she's relatable, insanely relatable in the same way a Miranda-Duly book is, or it's written with a sort of you're in on it with her, um, feeling. And I've, I've had to sort of watch who I recommend it to, but, but I do because my, me and my sort of peers, I don't know any, I don't

know any women that haven't had some form of problems with food. And the way it's written, I just, I've never read anything about eating disorders that's like that. And, uh, it's not sort of sensational and devastating and tragic. It's very, she's living it and it's not, that's her life. And you're sort of sad for her, but it also feels very sustainable. And that's my experience with any time I've had a disorderly in phase. Like I, the sort of thrill I get from the fact I've made it sustainable, is really dark, you know, and to read someone else write like that.

I don't know, I'm not making great sentences, but like it was like a relief in a way to see it like that. And the fact that her sort of return to her escape from doing that comes in a, in this form of she falls in love with this woman who doesn't regulate her eating and does enjoy life and doesn't. enjoy food and she's down bad for her. Like she thinks, you know, she can't believe how gorgeous she is. And it was just, it's a lovely romantic bit of the book that sort of this woman teaches her how to live, really. And it's so good. It's really good book. But it is so moving and relatable in this like restriction. And her mom's really overbearing. There's a lot of restriction from her mom.

She casts things off by the power of, yeah, food and letting that in. And I just think it's a really good empowering book. You've said that you related to protagonist in a way that felt almost uncomfortably close. And Milkfed navigates desire, shame, eating, queerness without flinching. sort of ends in this queer awakening as well, which you described as one of your favourite themes. Did this novel help you think about how the roles of daughter, partner, mother, you know, which you explore in your book,

how those roles interact with desire and the parts of ourselves that we sometimes hide? Yeah. I think it's back to expectation, isn't it, really? Like the sort of expectation and the performance of. of being this, a woman in the way that you're meant to be. She just, there is a version of her that her mother expects her to be, that society expects her to be, society expects her to be thin.

And, but honestly, the character that she meets, she works in an ice cream shop. It's so, the way it's written, the way she writes about food, when she starts to eat in this book, it's the most delicious thing in the world. The way she writes about it, you can taste it, feel it. Yeah, I love a protagonist discarding expectation and it being a very good thing for them. And yeah, this is really good sort of fable of that. I think, yeah, a protagonist discarding expectation is sort of young Becky in a complicated woman.

And I love that for you. Yeah, you can see me, like there's notes from like 2000. 15 where you can tell I'm, yeah, I'm like, oh, hang a minute, she's starting to think there. Yeah, you can see, you can see where these things and actually a lot of the themes that are explored in the books that we've discussed today when, when that penny starts to drop, like you said right from my handmaid's tail, it's like the varying, um, stages of that dropping penny. You see it throughout the book. God, you're right. Like almost every book has just got a woman realising something and then acting on it, whether it's a

that's easy to do or not. None of them act on their sort of awakening and it's simple and easy. Every character in all of those books are brave. I suppose that's what I'm always banging on about. There'll be realisations and awakenings every day. They just keep coming. So I do want to ask what's next.

I know you're taking a little bit of time for yourself because it's been an insane year. Yeah. I've really tried to not for it not to be, but it has. This is what happens. Will you write another book? You sort of mentioned that you've got ideas. I've got an idea.

I've got an idea. I would need a long deadline and a big check. Maybe no deadline. No deadline, but still the check. But I would like to do that. It's quite fun. I'm now like looking at the, on the edge of acting, writing or music, and all three of them aren't, it used to be impossible to get anyone to listen to me or like help me or fund it.

And now all three, there are places I can go with ideas. and say this is what I think it should be and this is what I want to do and, you know, I'm really trying to just enjoy that moment, really and make sure whatever I do next isn't borne out of pressure or, you know, expectation and make sure it's good. So I'm sort of going to sit.

I'm doing a play from March to June next year called Teeth and Smiles, which is David Hareplay. So that'll be interesting because it's Cabaret sort of, I went into a role that was very much set. This is sort of, it's a revival. So I'm sort of finding the character from scratch, which is really exciting.

I'll be playing some festivals. And then, yeah, whatever comes next will be whatever I think is good enough. I don't want to rush anything. I think that's the best way of doing it. I will ask you to rush one thing, though. And that is my final question, which is if you had to pick one book as a favourite,

which would it be in white? I know, I'm sorry. All fours, I think. I just think, I could read it again and again and again. I just think it's gorgeous and brilliant. And I'm grateful to her for writing it. Rebecca Lucy Taylor, it has been such a pleasure. We could just not have microphones in it.

Also, I was going to say, Rebecca bought me a bottle of wine. No guest has ever brought me. But a bottle of wine. You know what it was? I was like, I want to take something for the baby. And I thought, no, I'm going to take something for you. What you were going to say? It's actually for the baby.

I thought how often you get baby gifts. And I thought, but then I was worried you didn't drink. So I did Google. Google says that you have said you drink alcohol, but less so recently due to hangovers. Did Google say that? That's what like AI Google said. When did I say that? Me.

Mine would probably say, yes. Full stop. But yes, please enjoy that nice light rosé. Thank you for the bottle of wine. And thank you even more for being a guest on Bookshelfy. It has been incredible. Oh, thank you. I love you.

I love you. Anything for Vic Hope. You heard it here first. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction, Boot Shelfy podcast. Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help

other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. See you next time.