Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S8 Ep6: Bookshelfie: Shani Dhanda

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Broadcaster, disability inclusion and accessibility specialist, and social entrepreneur Shani Dhanda discusses the power of audiobooks, the importance of kindness and why accessibility benefits us all.  Shani Dhanda is one of the UK's most influential disabled people, and was named Number 1 on The Shaw Trust’s Disability Power 100 List in 2023. Shani has been recognised with multiple honours and awards for her inclusion and activism work, including being named as one of the six most influential women in the new world of work, one of the most influential women in leadership, and a world-leading changemaker. She is one of the consumer experts on BBC’s Rip Off Britain and a regular contributor on ITV’s This Morning. Shani’s intersectional activism and entrepreneurship has challenged social inequality around the world, and she is the founder of Diversability, the Asian Woman Festival and the Asian Disability Network. Shani’s book choices are:  ** The Secret Dreamworld of a Shopaholic by Sophie Kinsella ** Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone by J. K. Rowling ** But What Will People Say?: Navigating Mental Health, Identity, Love and Family Between Cultures by Sahaj Kaur Kohli ** Baby Does a Runner by Anita Rani  ** Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season eight of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and continues to champion the very best books written by women. You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org - every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops.  Don’t want to miss the rest of season eight? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

It wasn't until I realized that all other entrepreneurs are also making it up as it go along. Did I realize that? Well, I can do that. This is the Women's Prize for Fiction Bookshelfy podcast supported by Bayleys. Join us in celebrating women's writing from around the world in the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. I'm Vic Hope and I am your host for Season 8 of Bookshelfy, the podcast that asks Inspirements. and brilliant women to share the five books by women that have shaped them and their lives. Join me and my incredible guests as we talk about the books you should be adding to your reading list.

Today I'm joined by Dr. Shanney Dander. Shanney is a broadcaster, disability inclusion and accessibility specialist and social entrepreneur. She's one of the UK's most influential disabled people and was named number one on the Shore Trust's Disability Power 100 list in 2023. Shanney has been recognised with multiple honours and awards for her inclusion and activism work, including being named as one of the most influential women in leadership and a world-leading changemaker. She's one of the consumer experts on BBC's Rip-Off Britain and a regular contributor on ITVs this morning. Shanie's intersectional activism and entrepreneurship has challenged social inequality around the world, and she's the founder of Diversibility, the Asian Women Festival and the Asian Disability Network.

network. Shanny, what a bio. I feel so, like, honored to have you here. Welcome. It's just a pleasure to get to chat to you, to get to discuss books, to discuss your life. Thank you. But can you imagine how difficult it is for me when anyone asks me what I do? I never know what to say. What do you say? I'm kind of tailor it to who I'm talking to all, what I think most, what might be most appropriate to them but kind of give it to me in a nutshell that you know I work a lot around inclusion accessibility you know I always say that those are the jobs that pay my bills and then there's so many other things that I do that don't so that's how I describe it. The ultimate multi-hyphenate. I mean we we talk about books on this podcast but we talk about

so much more we talk about life looking back were you always a big reader as a child what did books mean to you? Yeah, books have been a really important part of my life in a really young age. So I was born with quite a rare genetic health condition. So I spent a lot of time in hospital, I spent a lot of time not being able to move my body independently. And books were my escapism. And I also went to special needs primary school. And I remember the teachers telling me there that I'd read all the books in the school. And I was like, what? So that was like interesting. And they were like, yeah, we've got to order new books in for you to read.

So I was, you know, a really avid reader, whether it was, you know, at school, at home. And then I used to spend lots of time in hospital and I always used to get books gifted to me. But I loved it and it was it was my escapism from such a young age. And to be honest, there's still an element of that now as an adult. Like I love just escaping in a book. we all need and deserve that escape. As a child, were you aware that you were escaping? Or did you just feel like, you know, I love this story?

Did you know that you sort of wanted to get out of the world you were in or the hospital beds say you were lying in at the time? Yeah, no, I didn't realise it at the time. I just, you know, I was enjoying the stories or the book that I was reading, I guess. I guess as a child I didn't have that much depth there. But, yeah, I think it's more now as an adult when I reflect back on that. time and you know because so many people ask me so many questions about that time it does lead you to reflect on it in a different way from when you were in it and experiencing it so yeah i think it's

something i realize more now as an adult and now as an adult i feel like we have to carve out the time right to to be able to get lost in a book to be able to escape how do you carve that time out when do you do the majority of your reading so if it wasn't for audiobooks, I just don't think I'd have the time to sit and read, which is really sad, especially because it's been something I've enjoyed throughout my life. But your life gets busy, doing everything that I'm doing. So it's usually, when I'm driving, I'm always up and down the motorway, or when I'm at home. So for me, the game changer has been audiobooks, because there was a period in my life where I'd gone a long time without,

accessing any books because I hadn't yet jumped on the bandwagon of audio books and I was just too busy in my life just to sit and read. So yeah, I was really, really glad when I got my subscription to audio. Looking back from that time when you cleared your school out and read every single book that they had to the point where they had to order new ones to now, how have your tastes changed or developed? Have they? Like, do you still gravitate to the same types of novels. Yeah, they have actually really changed and of course we've got podcasts now as well but I guess when I was younger I used to just read like teenage fiction or age appropriate books then Harry Potter burst on the scene that overtook a lot of my time and then now as an

adult it is more about escapism so I love you know fiction literature um I like comedy but I'm getting into like thriller and like serial true crime stuff now. It's a revelation as well. Yeah. I'm the same. I really, I think I wrote off the genre right. I was like, this is not for me. Same. And then once you're in.

Yeah, it was in Adel Park's book that did it for me. I love Adel Barks. You know, at first you get into it, you're like, oh, is this for me? And then I couldn't stop listening to it. I feel like there can sometimes be stigma attached to books, you know, that maybe you see as a holiday read. Yes. Because it's a page turner.

There's nothing wrong with a page turner. No. Let's turn those pages. Talking of the constraints, I guess, of the society around us and the need to then escape that into the worlds of the books where anything is possible. Yeah. You were born with a rare genetic condition called osteogenesis imperfector or brittle bone disease. But I know you said in the past that it's the barriers and the biases posed by society

that disable you, not your diagnosis. So can you explain a little bit about what you mean by that? Yeah. So my health conditions characterised by bones at break without any trauma. So I don't have to have an accident. I don't have to fall over. I don't have to have any type of injury for my bones to break. Just imagine that when you cough, your rib breaks.

It's like you're made out of glass, essentially. And by the age of 14, I'd broken my legs six times. And whilst that might sound like a high number of breaks, on average people with my condition actually break between three to 400 bones in their lifespan. So I've only had six breaks so I do feel very, you know, fortunate

that it's only been six. And then I had lots of surgery, I have a lot of metal in my body now, but I don't beef at the airport. And lots of treatment to help increase my bone density, which has all helped and really, really worked. So in terms of managing my health, I have the best quality of life that I can with what's available, but it still doesn't remove all the barriers that I face because I live in London.

I can't use the tube. It really annoys me. I'm late to everything. And also, there's nowhere to park in London. And I don't just mean an accessible bay because finding an empty accessible bay is like winning a lottery. I just mean anywhere. So what that means is because stations aren't designed step free and only a very small minority are, I have to pay thousands every year in taxes just to get anywhere.

So, you know, if I go to the chief station and ring my doctor, what's my doctor going to do? They've done their bit. It's the responsibility of the people who design that infrastructure, who make decisions on where money gets spent for public. And yeah, like if we just use the example of all. audiobooks, they were created for the blind community. But because accessibility benefits everybody, there are so many more people that access audio books

who can read books as well. So that's what I'm on a bit of a mission of really, is helping people to understand that accessibility benefits all of us. It already does and a lot of us don't realize it. Because there are so many things that we all own and use that were initially created for a disabled person. or the community of disabled people. You've been doing so much work for so long

to increase accessibility for all. Yeah. And I'm sure that in your lifetime since you were a kid at that school that you cleared out the books, you've seen great leaps and bounds and changes, but I'm sure there's still so much further that we need to go. Yeah. Which I'd like to discuss in a bit.

But to take it back to when you were reading, when you were younger, and the world maybe looked a little bit different and you were escaping into your novels. Let's talk about your first bootch-telphi book, which is the secret dream world of a shopaholic by Sophie Kinsella. Rebecca Bloomwood has a great flat,

a fabulous wardrobe full of the season's must-havs and a job telling other people how to manage their money. She spends her leisure time shopping. Retail therapy is the answer to all her problems. She knows she should stop, but she can't. The letters from the bank are getting harder to ignore. Can Becky ever escape from this dream world, find true love, and regain the use of her credit cards? Now, you've said that reading's been an escape for you ever since you were young.

What was it about this book in particular that stayed with you? How did it help you? Why did you love it? So I was gifted this book by my cousin when I was in hospital and it felt like a very grown-up book for me to read at that time. and I loved that about it. But it was just so fun. And, you know, as you get into the story, you learn about how chaotic Becky's life is. And I just, like, aspired to have a life like that where, you know,

because I really like fashion, I really like clothes, even though it's very difficult for me because I have a short stature. But I still really, like, love clothes and fashion. I found a lot of, like, I think myself in that book in certain ways. and I guess it allowed me to think about what my adult life would look like because as a child when you live with a health condition and you just don't know what your body's going to do I didn't always have that opportunity to think about oh what am I going to do when I'm older because I always thought that I just keep being in that cycle of my bones breaking and just recovering from that

So it gave me a lot of hope, I think. When I look back on it now, when I think about the age I was, where I was in my life, I think it was like the perfect book for me to have been given at that time. I love that you said, her life is chaos, right? It's messy, but I aspired to that. Yeah. You aspired to the chaos. Yeah, because it sounded amazing.

It sounded fun. And, you know, I think as well, because my childhood was so restricted in so many ways, like I made a promise to myself that I wanted to make everyday count. I didn't want to have any regrets in my life. So I didn't, I knew I didn't want to live a boring life. And when I was reading this book, I was like, this is so fun. She does all these things. Look, she's giving advice on money, but she can't even manage her own. So there was something really inspiring.

in that for me like you don't have to be perfect you don't have to have it all figured out when you're young so often we look to the perfect characters to the princesses you know to to to relate to or to want to be like and the fact that you looked to messiness and you looked to imperfection is something I've not actually really heard that much but it makes perfect sense if you felt like your life was it was restricted and it was so ordered. Yeah. Do you find Becky to be a relatable character to you? Maybe not the life that she was living,

but the person that she was. Yeah, especially in terms of her career, you know, when I think about the things that I do now, I didn't even know what I do is that it was an actual job. You know, I never had this big life plan that I would go into work in events and then, you know, work as my own bus, as an accessibility specialist.

And I think Becky did that in her career. You know, she wasn't your typical person who works in finance. So I guess I didn't realize it at the time, but it was also teaching me that too. Did you know what you wanted to be? Did you allow yourself to have a thing about what you might want to be? No, like, you know, when you were kidding, oh, maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do this.

But it was always like, well, it will have to depend on my health. So 16 was quite a pivotal age for me. I'd had all my surgery, had all my treatment. And I finally stopped breaking. So I had time. I was like, wow, what am I going to do with all this time? And I wasn't prepared because I didn't know that that was going to happen. So I went to college and I studied a course in early years to work with children.

I loved kids. I had loads of cousins, nieces and nephews. And they seemed to like me too. And I think it's because we're a similar height, but like I could give them sweets and toys. So I thought, yeah, the power, the authority. So I thought, you know what, I'm just going to choose something I enjoy. So I actually started out my career as a nursery nurse, got quite complacent and bored with that. Didn't see any progression for me in that.

Also, at the same time, we're struggling to get a part-time job. I had, on my covering letter, because that's what we used to have to do back then, you know, I used to have one sentence saying, I've got a health condition, but it doesn't affect my ability to do this job. and I applied for over 100 jobs and I didn't hit anything back. I didn't understand why. I think I was quite naive

in terms of understanding how in which stigma there can be in terms of hiring a disabled person. But anyway, I took that one sentence off my covering letter and got offered an interview straight away. That's interesting. Yeah, but it just taught me a harsh life lesson that people are going to judge my ability based on my appearance,

but, you know, I have to work really hard. I feel like I have to overcompensate to get ahead in life. Becky, obviously loves fashion. You love fashion. I know you do. But fashion hasn't always loved you. I think it's fair to say. I saw that you modelled in London Fashion Week for adaptive clothing brand.

Unhidden. You've worked with Primark on the newly launched adaptive clothing range. Can you tell us a little bit about your advocacy work when it comes to fashion and clothes? Why is it so vital? Yeah. I'm a big believer that there. There's no industry quite like fashion where they can change perceptions and new trends overnight like that. The amount of change and influence fashion has, I can't really see other industries having that same relevance or that same adaptability.

And that's why for me I think fashion is really important. You know, wearing clothing is a human need, but there are actually more clothes designed for dogs than disabled people. Really? That is our reality. You know, I'm the height of a four-year-old. I'm nearly 40 years old, and there's nowhere I can go into a shop and buy and wear clothes. I have to get everything tailored.

And it's not just the time and effort and energy. Like, I like to wear clothes as an extension of my personality. You know, I'm South Asian. I'm a Sikh Punjabi woman. Clothing in my culture is huge. It's, you know, it's such a celebration. It's so vibrant. and signifies different things as well.

But when you don't have access to that or it's really hard to get that access, it makes you feel excluded. It just makes it all so much of a fath that you can't be bothered. And, you know, it's a massive extra cost for me to continue to like get everything tailored. And yeah, so it's always felt really out of reach. But, you know, one of the clients that I work with is prime mark. and the work that I'm doing with them there, they're the UK's first High Street brand

to launch adaptive clothing. Clothing that's specifically designed for disabled people. And it being High Street is important too because that's access in itself. Absolutely. So not only do you have all the adaptive features, but it's accessible in terms of price because we as disabled people face many unavoidable extra costs.

And on average, it comes out to over £1,000 a month, that you have to find in order to retrofit all this inaccessibility. So it's massively important, but also I never thought I'd see adaptive clothing on the high street in my lifetime. So let alone see it but help shape it. It's such an honour for me to have been involved in it. And here we are and the work continues because like you said, access baguettes access. Yeah. You know, it's got to pave the way for itself.

Absolutely. But it's got to start somewhere. On to another book now that you loved escaping into. You mentioned it at the very beginning there. Your second book, Shelby book is Harry Potter and The Philosopher Stone by J.K. Rowling. Life isn't much fun at number four Privet Drive, at least not for Harry Potter, living under the stairs in a cupboard full of spiders. But all that is about to change. On the eve of Harry's 11th birthday, the letters start arriving.

Harry learns that he has a place at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. and incredible adventure begins and life for Harry Potter will never be the same again. Tell me about your memory of reading the first Harry Potter book. Yeah, and I was always like, when I think back at that time, I was so glad I was the age that I was to appreciate it then. Like, when it was new and the first Harry Potter book came out, I remember like talking about it at school with my friends and we would all, oh, have you read it?

And at first I didn't know what people were talking about. And then I got the book and I, you know, you couldn't put it down. First of all, the size of the books. They got bigger and bigger, isn't they? They did, but it's a bit like daunting. But wow, what a page turner. And I really feel like when I think back at that time and my childhood, that was such a pivotal thing that I remember

because it was something that me and my sister really bonded over as well. So she's six years older than me. but we were both as obsessed as each other to the point where whether the books would come out at midnight, we would be there in the queue at the supermarket, waiting for the next edition. But I think, again, for me, it was that massive element of escapism,

but it was just a richer, deeper experience. And I was so glad that I read the books before I watched the films. The films are obviously incredible. But when you read the books, it's your imagination that builds the same. story and the characters. So yeah, Harry Potter took me through so many years. We were the same, you know, so my brothers are all younger than me, but it really brought us together. It was a real bonding activity. We used to read them out. Like my dad used to read them and do all the voices.

And it wasn't until we watched the film that we realized she wasn't called Hermione. Yeah. It was going Hermione and like Hey Gris, but it didn't matter because he would do all these voices and Yeah. You know, like there was a real sense of community. I think regardless of age or background, that buzz that you described and everyone being together in wanting to get their hands on the new book, it being the talk of the playground.

You got a lot of kids into reading who weren't necessarily into reading otherwise or before. Yeah. And it also became a bit of a competition, like what chapter are you on and what chapter are you on? Did you get any sleep last night? You know, the first night that you got the book. So yeah, it was a big part of my life, especially as a younger person.

It's a story that becomes entangled in darker, more complex themes as Harry gets older. And in some ways, you could say that's why a lot of us stayed with it, because we all got older as well. We were hooked and it mirrored our own experiences as we were growing up and beginning to enter the adult world. Yeah, I definitely. agree and you know I've got younger nieces and nephews and they didn't get into it in the same way that we did and I really think it did capture a generation and as you say we've grown up with it

and we've stayed with it as well and there's been so many other things like you know the theatre production and all these other things and I'm still so invested in it all but I think if something captures you at a certain age it's the same with like the spice girls you know I'm still as obsessed with them as I was when I was a kid. But because I think they become such core memories. They got us right then. They did. And, you know, that's priceless.

You've spoken at over 250 conferences and companies worldwide, including the United Nations, World Exposed, TEDx. Talking of community and talking of having that platform where you've got people enraptured, what's it been like having that, opportunity to share, to share your experiences, to advocate for others and to use that platform. It's been a dream come true. If I'm being honest, I didn't realize how powerful speaking could be or just perhaps simply sharing your experience. And especially coming from a South Asian community, we're not really encouraged. Like my family were quite conservative, like small sea,

And you know, women tend to be encouraged to be more submissive. And so there's me doing the complete opposite. So it was a big departure. Like I had to really get used to that. It was a massive change. But when I was sort of in my mid to late 20s, I was becoming a more budding disability activist and campaigner. And I got into doing some campaigning with the disability charity called Scope.

And it was the team there that really made me feel that my story was important, that it was a perspective that many people don't really get to hear. Because if we think about the representation of disabled people, it's not always as diverse that it can be. It needs to be better. And then also, I think it led me to realize that, yes, this is my story and I know it, but it can be so powerful for other people.

I kept getting asked to come and speak at people's, like, events or organisations. I had no idea at this point that it was a job or you could get paid for it. So I'd be like, yeah, sure, I'll come. I used to turn up, you know, do what I did. And then it wasn't until like a few years later. I was like, oh, like people are getting paid really good money to do this. And it's an actual job. But, you know, it has a purpose.

And then I took it more seriously. And so I didn't know one day I would be a keynote speaker or a host or a broadcaster. It was all, it all came about in quite an organic way. But I really love it because I also worked in events for 10 years and I hated public speaking. Really? Yeah. But you like it now? You can't shut me up now.

But like, so as an event manager, I used to have to, you know, welcome guests. do all the housekeeping, do all the thanks, introduce a speaker. I just wanted the wall to swallow it. I hated it. But I think the difference now is I'm talking about something that's so passionate. I feel like I really have aligned my purpose with my passion. And I get to see the impact that just my words make alone, let alone if people then work with me in other ways.

So that's a privilege. You know, it's an honour that people invite me to do. that it's a big responsibility as well because it's talk about quite heavy topics but I don't want to go into those spaces leave and leave people feeling heavy with it so it's a real art actually it's it's a real skill that you have to hone and understand that you're there to educate but also motivate people in a certain way it sounds like there was a transition where you learned your literal worth because you're literally able to charge for your words for your story. Yeah.

Did that have an impact on your self-worth? Yes. And do you know what it was? It was learning about something called the social model of disability, which is where we talked about how it's barriers of bias that disabled people, not your health condition. Because what I didn't realize is when I learned about it, it lifted this massive weight off my shoulders that I didn't even realise I was carrying. And the reason I think it was so important is because in my culture, disability faces an even further sense of stigma. So, you know, from a

young age, I'd have people saying to me, oh, you must have done something bad in your past life. That's why you were born with your health condition. And I was like, what? Like, you know. Who's saying this to you? There would be people in the community, family members. And I remember how that used to make me feel. I'd sit, like, I don't even know if I believe in reincarnation, right? And, you know, I'd be six or six, seven, eight. And I'd be like, oh, what, I wonder what I could have done. And I'd sit there and think, what, what would I have done? And I just think no child should have ever been made to feel that way. And, you know, I'm a live, live, live person. If that's what someone believes, great, but don't put that on to somebody else. So,

I had grown up with sort of disability as being seeing something as a source of shame, stigma, not only in my community, but also broader community. And then I learned about the social model. And it not only just, it was life-changing. And I feel cringy when I say it, like it changed my life. But it really did because it gave me so much self-worth, it gave me so much validation.

And when we don't have the power to change things like the tube, The next best thing you can give someone is validation to be like you know what I might not be able to relate to that experience but I can understand like where you're coming from that that is massive that's the next best thing

so let's keep validating one another but lastly it gave me hope and I thought wow this makes so much sense to me if I can help others learn this then won't we live in a much more accessible and fairer society and then it's led me to all the things that I'm doing now.

Of all the things that you have done, is there a particular moment that stands out that young Shanie would be so proud of? Yeah, I'm often asked this question, and I think there's so many things I could say, right, I've done so many incredible things, but I always say graduating from uni because I went to Special News Primary School,

certain labels get put on you for that. A lot of people around me had really low expectations of me. I wasn't ever encouraged to think about higher education. And then I only ended up going to uni out of necessity, out of survival, you know, to the point where I didn't even care what the course was in. I just chose something I thought would be easy and didn't have many exams because I didn't think I was clever enough to go to uni. And it was hard. And I thought, yeah, I thought you had to be really clever until I got there and I realized you just have to hand you working on time. It's not about being clever.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think for me, graduating from Munich, just know how hard it worked. I know the journey took me to get there, how much I didn't think that it was for me, and then, like, graduating, and now, you know, I was awarded an honorary doctorate, which again is just unreal and has never thought these things would happen for me. Yeah, it keeps coming back to not having felt you belonged in these spaces or not having the aspiration to achieve these things and then going above and beyond your wildest dreams. And also not having representation.

And if you can't see it, you can't be it. How are you supposed to know? Yeah. But now there'll be so many other young Shanis out there who see you. Yeah. And now they know they can. Yeah.

Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize of fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Baileys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Check out baileys.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Let's talk about your third book today. You've mentioned the intersection between being British and Asian, South Asian, Sikh, and navigating that. and it all feels very appropriate for but what will people say.

Navigating mental health, identity, love and family between cultures by Sir Hedge called Koli. Sir Hedge grew up as a South Asian girl in a white American community, constantly trying to reconcile her two identities, always feeling like she wasn't enough of either. Her mental health suffered, but her worries were met with shame. Eventually, Suhedge decided to train as a therapist herself. In this book, she compiles her comprehensive.

of research to create a revolutionary guide to democratise and decolonise the way we think about our mental health. Tell me why you chose this book. Why did it hit home for you? This book has been everything for me in so many ways and it was definitely the book that I needed as a young young girl and I'm so glad that Sage wrote this and put this together now. But I came across said from her Instagram page called Brown Girl Therapy. And, you know, it's a big statement to make, but I think it's my favorite account on Insta. Again, it comes back to that point of validation because as a British, South Asian, we know,

with all my heritage from India, with still family members living in India, I always, from a young age, have felt this massive sense of conflict, conflict that I'm never British enough. you know, here I get us to where are you from? I say Birmingham and they say no way you're really from. And then when I go to India, my family don't see me as Indian. So it's like, who am I? Where do I fit in? And that's actually one of the big reasons and motivations why I created the Asia Woman Festival.

Because I was a young, you know, in my early 20s and I was looking for events to go to as a South Asian woman. But the only ones that I could find were to book your wedding venue or buy a new sari. and I thought they're not the only things I want to do and I just thought why is there anything that's offered to a society

and why does it have to revolve around getting married or how nice you're looking as sorry I wasn't interested in any of those things and then I thought what it can't just be me that feels that what if there's women that have already done that aren't ready for that or just want something different because you know

there are still topics you can't sometimes talk about with your own family there are still topics that still hold a lot of shame and stigma or there were just some topics that people don't want to talk about in certain communities and I was looking for that safe space and then because I was in events I think that's the only reason this happened I thought well why don't I create it coming back to the book said has given me the language and the knowledge that I needed to be able to understand these things and to navigate you know feelings

emotions, situations, because for me and my generation, were the first generation to be able to have the time, the resources, and again, I'm going to use the word privilege, to even do this. So for me, both sets of my grandparents came to the UK in the 1950s. My dad also came to the UK from India, and my mum was born here. But all my past generations have all been only in survival mode. so there's a lot of feelings of selfishness about that as well like they've done all what they've done moved countries and you know laid the foundations for me to be able to do everything but navigating that

has been hard and but then it also comes with feelings of guilt as well so yeah i don't think i can really put into words what this book has meant for me but it's not only just for south asian people It's anyone who is from a multicultural background. And I'm really happy that Asia Woman Festival hosted Sehed's book tour here in the UK. And it was just a gorgeous evening. And it was brilliant. It was just a meeting of so many like-minded people, who you could tell her resources have helped in so many ways.

Well, that's it, like-minded, isn't it? It's knowing that you're not alone. And there's something so special about the first book that makes you feel that way. Yeah. to know that other people have had these thoughts and feelings and that it's okay you can get through them because they did too. And, you know, mental health is not, I mean, I think in a lot of diasporic communities and a lot of immigrant families,

mental health is not something we talk about. I'm half Nigerian and I totally get what you mean about the shame. I feel bad about saying that something's difficult when I know my mum grew up in a war, right? And she came here and it was really, really hard and she's never complained. Exactly. But it's okay for us to say we feel a certain way and to need to work out what that might be.

Yeah. Let's talk about it. And because we haven't been taught that and that's not been explained to us because perhaps we haven't had people in our lives to do that, which is not, you know, I'm not saying that in a negative way, but that comes with a big feeling, a big burden. And also, especially like,

like, you know, we're all living in the West. And then sometimes our identities are only relevant in relation to whiteness or what the dominant narrative is. And like I've struggled with that too. But then I've not always had the language or the know-how and how to talk about that either. So if you haven't got this, you need to get it. I'm going to, I'm going to, like you say, it's useful for everyone.

Charity, I want to shout out as well, Black Minds Matter who specifically work with therapy and mental health resources in the black community because it's different. It is different. And that needs to be acknowledged. How do you practice putting yourself first in day-to-day life? How do you prioritize your well-being and protect your energy? And I guess I'd like to know how you balance that with work that actually puts yourself and your feelings and your experiences at the heart of the fight. Yeah. And you know, it's a lot sometimes. I never feel like there's an off button. Yeah. Because this is my experience, this is my lived experience, but then I also work in this space. And that's a, that's a choice I've

made. Yeah, but it's still a lot. It is a lot. But that's why I have to be really intentional with self-care and with boundaries. So it's taken me a really long time. You know, I'm nearly 40 and I'm still figuring this all out. But I say no to a lot of things. And it isn't just because sometimes it isn't a right fit. It's just that I just don't have time at that moment. And I just don't have time at that moment and it's prioritising what I'm looking to achieve and what aligns best. So, you know, I'm really fortunate at that so many organisations want to work with me, but I'll only say yes to the ones that I know are doing it for the right reasons and aren't virtue signalling and aren't just doing it to tick a box. So having strong boundaries, whether that's at home or at work.

And also, it comes back to the promise I made myself as a kid. I don't want to have any regrets and I want to make everyday count and oh you know what another thing I've had to learn is I don't have to burn myself out to earn rest and and to take time out for myself and I think I'm getting better at that now but I haven't had good role models in terms of that I've all I've had around me is people constantly working and that being praised and seen as an accolade so I've really had to unlearn that concept of you don't have to burn yourself out to have a rest. The rest is actually very productive. It is.

Learning that. I get so creative. You know, I actually have time to think. I'm not just in doing mode. So, yeah, it's having strong boundaries and saying no. So much of your activism is centred on the importance of intersectionality. Yeah. That word comes up so much on this podcast.

At this time, politically, seeing. EI schemes being rolled back by the Trump administration in the US. How are you holding on to hope? I said at the beginning, you know, we have to look forward as well as back. How are you navigating this moment when it feels sometimes as though we are going backwards? Yeah. It is a scary time. And, you know, working in the inclusion industry,

there's so many colleagues and friends that, you know, are facing the brunt of that as we speak. But I think there are a few things that give me help. And the first thing I think we have to think about is inclusion isn't just one person or one department's responsibility. It's everybody's responsibility. So even if we are going to live through a period where budgets get cut, jobs are, you know, diminished and workplaces are encouraged not to prioritise it in a way that they have before, we can still, in that. all the things that we do every day make sure that our actions and our behaviours and our language is still as inclusive as possible and I'm a big believer in that because how can just one department

be responsible for the whole culture of an organisation let's say or how can one organisation be responsible for making a whole organisation inclusive endeavour the bookstops with all of us It's all of our responsibility. And my TEDx talk was titled, D&I isn't just a job title. And I didn't know that at the time that it would be so apt now, but that's why it just takes me back to.

Like, it's not just a job title. It's something that all of us have to practice in whatever we do. Because I believe every decision that we make, it can either raise or lower barriers to participation. Let's go back to the example of the tube. Someone designed it with steps. That's a barrier.

So just that was simple decision that was made. Perhaps that person didn't realize at the time. But that's what I mean when I say, we have to think about the bias that we have, but also how we disrupt it. So, you know, it's tough at the moment. I don't think it's going to be like this forever. But what is also worrying is the weaponization of the language,

of the terms woke. And when that's the dominant narrative, it's hard for anybody else's opinions to come through. It can feel so loud. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about your fourth book, Shelfy Book now, which is Baby Does a Runner by Anita Rani, who we love on this show.

We've had her as a guest before. Baby Soul has had it with just about everything. She's fed up with her job and her colleagues. Her love life is permanently casual, and underpinning everything is the grief of losing her much-loved dad. Then she finds some love letters between her grandfather and someone who is very very, clearly not her grandmother. Baby travels to India on a quest to find out more and along the way

she discovers herself and the seeds of a romance she was not expecting. Tell us about this book. Why did you love it? Oh, I love this book and growing up, I never really read books from South Asian authors. So now there are more and more joining, you know, the publishing world, which is just incredible. And it makes me feel so happy that I can give me. my younger nieces and nephews, books from authors that represent them and stories and, you know, even down to people's names that we recognize, that are our norm. So that in itself is huge. But I love Anita Rani.

She's been someone, you know, on our screens in the South Asian community representing us for so long. And this book resonated in so many ways. So there's a joke in our community. the Punjabi community that everyone will always have an article called baby it's a nickname that's given to you and my mom's that person her nickname at home is baby so um the main character's name's baby so that that's a funny joke but there was so much of myself that I related to in this character because I went solo traveling around India and in the book a baby does something similar and it was it was like rediscovering all the things I did but through the

There were so many similarities because it was a big deal for me to go on my own and I didn't ask anyone's permission. I just did it. And then the realisation didn't hit me till on the day until I was hugging my mum on the drive saying bye to her as I was going to the airport. Like what I was about to do, you know, India's not always a safest place for a single woman to travel on her own. And then with me having a short stature and I made that rookie mistake. And I made that rookie mistake. of overpacking so my suitcase was bigger than me it didn't hit me until on the day but it just felt like this incredible adventure had taken a three month sabbatical from work but wow it was it was a fantastic fantastic adventure but I got to relive it through this book which is why I loved it so so

much you're a beautiful piece for condo-nast traveller actually about your own solo trip around India how significant it was for you as your dad and both sets of grandparents were were born there, when was it and why was it so transformative and so important? I think because I'd probably lived a very sheltered life so suddenly like I was just off doing what I wanted to do and especially solo travelling as well, all the decisions are down to you. You don't have to think about anybody else or what anybody else wants to do. It was so liberating and sometimes the hardest decision of the day would be. be what beach do I want to go to?

I remember feeling like that in Goa. But it was an adventure. I didn't know how people were going to react to me. You know, I'm talking about how disability is viewed in my community here. It's totally different there. Often people would be shocked. I'd be travelling on my own. They'd ask me where my husband was or where my dad was.

I know that I taught people things when they met me because they were just shocked at the pure audacity of me being there with my massive suitcase, you know, travelling alone. But I was also really touched by people's kindness because I speak Punjabi, but that's not a language that everybody knows in India. There's, you know, hundreds of language and dialects. So even when I didn't speak the same language, people would just come and help me. Like if it was getting on a bus, you know, they could clearly say I couldn't carry my bag. So they'd just help me. And I was really touched by people's kindness because all my trips to India prior to this,

they'd always be to my family's village in North India, in Punjab. And I felt like I hadn't seen India. That was my only representation of it, but I knew there was obviously so much more to it. So I got to trouble around 11 states. But it just taught me so much about myself. And, you know, the one thing that I love about travel is how insignificant it makes you feel. Because when you're in your life and in your hair,

and you're just so focused on things that sometimes aren't a big deal, but we can make them a big deal. When you're away from all of that, it just helps to reframe things. It puts things into perspective. And I really encourage anyone out there that is thinking about perhaps solo travelling or just taking a scary adventure, just do it.

Yeah. Just do it. I second that. Such a huge fan. When you say perspective, it's like reading, isn't it? because it teaches you so much as the best education you can get, but also it teaches you empathy, because you walk a day in the shoes of someone completely different to yourself.

You see how others see the world. I'm interested in how disability was viewed while you were over there. And also, you know, even here as part of the Asian community, how has that impacted the way that you view or experience disability? I know you started the Asian Disability Network, which is a fantastic platform that focuses on disability in Asian communities. tell us a little bit more about that yeah so what really kicked it off for me was i met someone i just met someone um who was 10 years younger than me and we were talking he was a south asian

queer Bangladeshi guy you know really we had a great conversation and what struck me is even though he was 10 years younger than me he had had had had had all the same experiences, negative experiences and barriers as me. And I thought, how, how have you, how, how has nothing changed? And then I stopped and I thought, well, who's doing anything in our community to make anything change? And there wasn't really much. And if there was anything, it wasn't from the perspective of the disabled person. It would be a parent's perspective, which is still very valid and needed,

but still not the perspective of us. So, you know, off I went and created what is a grassroots community. And it was just about, again, creating safe space because, you know, figuring out how to navigate your ethnic identity, your religious identity, your nationality, any other identity. And then on top of it, a disability identity, it's a lot. It is a lot. and I thought, I know, I've needed help with this and I haven't had it.

And then, you know, even talking to your family, they can't get it either because they don't have your experience of a disabled person. They have it in relation to who they are to you, i.e. a sibling, a parent, a cousin. They still don't get what it means for you. So that's how that came about. And it's just been a place to connect with others. Because what, you know, there's just some things you can't Google.

There's some things you can only learn from each other. And you're right. No one can ever know what it means or feels like to be you. But representation does help and it does matter. Yeah. Which brings us back to this book. Anita Rani is a huge champion of this. And that's why we love her.

Of course, there are so many different identities and facets of life that we need to see more of in what we watch and what we read. The same is true of disability. why is it so important for young people especially to be exposed to accurate and diverse representations in the media if we're to look forward? Oh yeah and this is something I'm so passionate about because growing up I'd not seeing yourself or any bit of your identity being represented it does make you feel invisible. I remember the first time I saw disabled people on TV was for children indeed

and while children in need is fantastic they raise loads of money. money, it's a very rigid perception of disability and there's nothing to counter it. Because if you think about, if we're just talking about disability, like we only really see disabled people talking about disability issues on TV or complaining about the lack of accessibility. But I want, we're way more than that. We shouldn't just be pigeonholed into doing that. And as a broadcaster, I'm struggling with that, like, with only being approached to talk about disability related things, which is why I love the work that I'm doing with Asian

network. It's nothing to do with disability. And I've often spoken about that. Like, I always get shifted into the disability box, but it's, it's probably the most mundane thing about me. There's, there's so much more to me than that. But I never get a chance to, to talk about that so much, because it's always focused on one aspect. But every single person on the planet is intersectional, you know, and representation is so important, because if you can't see others like you, you, or understand their journey or see yourself in those positions, then you don't have anything to aspire to. And, you know, I'm also an entrepreneur,

and I never again thought that it was something that I could do or be. And I never aspired to be one. I'm doing it because I know how to solve a problem that I've experienced myself, which is about extra costs. But it wasn't until I realized that all other entrepreneurs are also making it up as it go along. Did I realise that? Well, I can do that.

So it's these small moments of realisation, but they can make the biggest differences in your life. Because I thought, oh, everyone who is an entrepreneur, they know what they're doing. There's this plan that they follow. There isn't. And disability not being constricted to that sort of children need trope, which is, as you say, narrow.

It's so more my favourite job, other than the women's prize, which is my favourite job to do, is the Paralympics. I host the Paralympics on Channel 4. and it's pure sport, right? It's epic, it's excellent. And that's it, and it's on the mainstream. Yes.

And we're watching it as soon as the Olympics are finished. Yeah. With the same spirit. And I love that. Yeah. You talked about kindness when you talked about your trip to India, and that's a really important theme in your fifth and final book, Shelfy book, which is Eleanor Oliphant is completely fine by Gail Honeyman.

Eleanor Oliphant has learned how to survive. We keep saying that's survive, but it's not everything, not how to. to live. She leads a simple life. Nothing's missing from her careful timetable, except sometimes everything. Then one simple act of kindness shatters the walls Ellen has built around herself. Now she must learn how to navigate the world that everyone else seems to take for granted, whilst searching for the courage to face the dark corners she's avoided all her life. Now this book was long listed for the Women's Prize for Fiction in 2018. What makes it so compelling for you?

So this was a really different type of read for me and I discovered it after it had been so highly praised and had incredible reviews and when you first start reading it, it's such an unassuming story, you don't expect what's going to happen in the book and all the topics that it covers. But again, I think there was probably something

that I saw in the character that I had experienced as well but it's such a riveting story. It touches on themes of like grief, loathiness, mental health. And just about while things in your life could be okay, it doesn't mean that you're living to your fullest entry potential every day. And that was something that it really shows up for me a lot. And that's something that has directed the things that I do in my life. So I really resonated with that in this story.

But yeah, it was just something so different for me to read at that time. So it's so different from all of the other type of books that I would read. And it always stuck with me. And it's a book that I always recommend to others as well to read. You said in your nose you think everyone should give us a try. Yeah. Why is that? Because I think it just helps to reaffirm so many different things that we all probably think

that perhaps don't realize it. And then to see it written in a book and you're like, oh, I'm not alone in thinking this or feeling this. I think you can be the most popular person and feel loneliness as well. That's a big theme of this book. And her mental health journey, I think that's really important. But it's not given to you in the traditional mental health ribbon. So there was a lot of surprises in the book and, you know, I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but it's got a lot of twists and turns,

which keeps you on the edge of your seat. And the way it's written, it is beautiful. Yeah. You really are on her side. Yes. you are with her as we're tackling big issues like you said like loneliness trauma mental health but it can open conversations in our day-to-day lives without kind of philosophising without being didactic do you think fiction can be a good way to tackle bigger or more difficult

topics and add nuance yeah undoubtedly and you know with this character we learned that she's had a lot of trauma in her life but it's it's teased out very gently It's not like the be all and end all of who she is. It just emerges slowly throughout the story. And I think it comes back to like whatever your life has been or whatever your circumstances have been, they don't have to define you. Whether we learn that through fiction

or whether we learn that from one another or each other's stories. And I think this book does that really nicely. It seems to be a bit of a pattern as well with your picks today. Do you find yourself gravitating towards books that combine the trickier parts of life with humour and romance? Yeah, because we need that lighthearted element.

And, you know, I know I definitely use humour as a tool when I'm delivering my keynotes. Like I think I'm a funny person anyway. I know I make myself laugh anyway, but I think especially like, is a really good tool. I'm never someone where I've wanted to take life seriously, but I've had to deal with a lot of serious and big heavy topics.

So I know how much humor has helped me and still continues to help me. And whether it's about romance, you know, whether it's about how chaotic somebody's life is, there's always something relatable in this. And yeah, I love all these books. You've got a laugh, though, don't you sometimes? Yeah. Yeah.

And what was the lasting impression that this book gave you about kindness and the way we judge others? So I think with this story, kindness is a big theme throughout. And again, it doesn't emerge straight away, but especially towards the end and how, you know, her friends rally around and how she develops her confidence. And when I think about that in relation to me, It's the kindness of others that have helped me to believe in myself. It's people giving me the time of day when I didn't have the most confidence. And just how kindness or just a simple act of kindness can really transform someone's day. It doesn't have to be the biggest thing that you do or think about.

But you might not even realise the impact that it can have on somebody else. And I know that in my approach, you know, I think, I think I'm quite an empathetic person and kindness is a big thing that I want to convey and help people feel and I think this book is just a really a nice reminder of that as well. It seems like so much of your work is about creating those networks of support. Yeah. Because we all need each other. Definitely.

We need people. And so what would you like to say to your support network who've been there? Oh, just thank you so much. and the ways in which people have helped or just being there or perhaps it was a conversation that someone had with me. You know, the impact is sort of immeasurable really. And I think it comes back to this point

that I'd love us all to understand or remind ourselves us a bit more is there's so much more that connects us all than divides us. And I know so many people say that, but I genuinely believe that to be true. I know that to be true. You know, with the work that I do, I'll be so many different types of people. It could be people that are at the start of this journey of inclusion or accessibility

or people that are more advanced on it. But I know that people don't wake up in the morning and think today, I'm going to make life harder for this group of people. I know that. So I think it's just understanding the impact that we all have, that we all can have, and educating ourselves as all of our experiences continue to evolve, you know, what we expect from one another changes as well,

whether that's a different use of language, whether that's better behaviour, whether that's being more aware of things. I just think let's all remember that this is our responsibility to just keep doing that learning, whatever that might be. And the impact that you're having for so many people is just immeasurable and continue to have. So from me to you as well, thank you.

Thank you. My final question to you, Shanie, is if you had to choose one book from your list as a favourite, which one would it be in why? Your face says that you don't want to do that. It's so hard. Just choosing these five, you know, it's hard enough. I'm sure there's been so many. Yeah.

I think I'd probably go with Sej's book. But what will people say? And it's such a classic line in many communities, you know. But what will people say if you do X, X, Y, and Z? I think it's a great tool for everybody but if you are from a multicultural background or not it will help people to understand you know other people that you live within society as well

but what will people say well what I would like to say is thank you so much for joining me this has been such a beautiful chat thank you for being so honest and open and insightful I've really really enjoyed it thank you I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the women's price for fiction Boot Shelfy Podcast. Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books discussed in our show notes. If you've enjoyed it, please leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women.

See you next time.