Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S9 Ep1: Bookshelfie: Charli Howard

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

To kick off a new season of Bookshelfie, author, model, entrepreneur and women’s rights activist Charli Howard talks to Vick about finding confidence in your 30s, dating disasters and the therapeutic process of writing her latest book.Charli’s coming-of-age memoir, Misfit, was published in 2019, which followed her rise in the modelling industry, her battle against body shaming and the normalisation of size zero. She’s also the author of children’s novel, Splash, which Jacqueline Wilson called a ‘much needed book that will strike a chord with so many girls – and help them dare to be different.’  Charli is an ambassador for Refuge and has successfully lobbied the UK government to criminalise the creation of non-consensual deepfake pornography. Her new book, Flesh, is an urgent and powerful series of essays on how society has dissected and sexualised the female body throughout time, and what it means to be a woman in the twenty-first century.Charli’s book choices are:** Sleepovers by Jacqueline Wilson** Hunger by Roxane Gay** The Eyes are the Best Part by Monika Kim** Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood** I’m Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCurdyYou can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

Bettering your business takes working with the best. With the James Hardy Alliance, you gain access to leads, training, networking and support from the number one brand of siding in North America. Achieve new levels of success by joining the James Hardy Alliance today. Coming up on Vic Shelfy. I just love, excuse my French, fucked up people. Yes. And like fucked up books. Like I love reading about them.

I want to get into their brain. I've just started reading American Psycho for the first time as well. And I just... Oh, that'll do it. Yeah, that'll do it. I love it. I mean, I am a bit of a true crime drunky as well. She talks a lot about, you know, this hunger of wanting to be accepted, this hunger of wanting to be loved, and feeding yourself and wanting to become invisible to men, but then also kind of becoming bigger and so therefore not being respected in their eyes.

It's this very, very complicated feeling and I think she really articulates it so well. Women are told that beauty is the most important thing. It's either beauty, it's either looking good or it's getting married, having children. And so if you don't achieve those things, you ultimately feel like a failure. I think we used to talk about self-love in a different way. And I have a chapter called Heart, which is, you know, and whole as well, which is about coming back to yourself and learning to love yourself. But how do you do that?

Hello, I'm Vic Hope and welcome to season nine of Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize, the charity building a better future by championing women's writing. This is the podcast where we ask women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. I am so excited that we're back with thanks to support from Bayleys and I can't wait to share the incredible guests that we have in store for you and dive into their brilliant books for your reading lists. You can also watch the whole episode in full.

Do you believe it? You can find us on YouTube or on Spotify and don't forget to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Today I'm joined by Charlie Howard, author, model, entrepreneur and women's rights activist. Her coming of age memoir, Misfit, was published in 2019, which followed her rise in the modelling industry, her battle against body shaming and the normalisation of size zero.

She's also the author of children's novel Splash, which Jacqueline Wilson called a much-needed book, which will strike a chord with so many girls and help them dare to be different. I love that. Charlie is an ambassador for refuge and has successfully lobbied the UK government to criminalise the creation of non-consensual deep-fate pornography. Her new book, Flesh, is an urgent and powerful series of essays on how society has dissected and sexualized the female body throughout history. And what it means to be a woman in the 21st century. Charlie, what an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the podcast.

I'm excited! Yes! Here we are. Congratulations on the new book. Oh my gosh, thank you. You were just telling me before that you have just voiced the audiobook, so it's quite fresh in the memory. I just did the audiobook and it was really weird, like, rereading it. No, this is good.

I was like, oh, this is interesting. I was like, oh, that's an interesting, yes, fact or, you know, statement, whatever. But I think it's really interesting to kind of look at the female body and the way that women's bodies have been objectified through time from an outsider's perspective. Even though that we're living in those bodies, when you really take a step back and you see just how much, you know, we've been objectified, put down over time. you're like, well, no wonder, so many of us have got so many issues, you know. Yeah, because they don't come from nowhere. No. It's a really interesting way that you've written it,

this sort of idea of analysing each piece of your own body and making this overarching structure of the novel. What made you decide to write it in this way? I wanted someone to be able to pick up the book and go, oh, I'm maybe not feeling good about my stomach today so that I can read this and kind of understand why, you know, my stomach makes me feel so bad about myself or, you know, perhaps the brain and the way that, you know, mentally we kind of view ourselves so negatively. And so each chapter is named after

a different body part. So you have brain. I'm trying to remember them all now. Brain breasts, vagina, stomach thighs, hips, I think is one of them. I'm trying to remember now. They don't I. Yeah. But it's really interesting. And I kind of go into everything from, you know, deep fakes, AI, the rise of only fans and things like that. Even, you know, you know, glamour modelling, which is what we obviously grew up seeing and things like that, size zero, where fat phobia developed from, which was really interesting to me to kind of find out that so much of it is rooted in racism and misogyny, because I think we tend to view, you know, the issues with fat and fat phobia as a kind of women's issue. And it really isn't. Like when

you really delve into it, you see that so many of us are just, you know, dying for love, dying for acceptance. And so we take it out on our bodies for some reason. There's self-harm, isn't there in the way that we treat ourselves? Yeah, it's massively a form of self-harm. And I think that we just have to give ourselves more of a break. It's so interesting actually how it is so intertwined with this need for love. Looking back on times when I was the most critical of my body, were times when I also was in bad relationships or allowing people to treat me in a way that I felt I deserved

because there was a level of self-loathing there. Yeah, I'm like, this is what I deserve. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? And I kind of, throughout the book, I kind of relook at some of my, my relationships with men and a lot of the abuse that I face at the hands of men. But the reason why I kind of started it is because I think so many of us go through it. And we're experiencing misogyny, objectification every single day. And we just don't see that as a problem. We just kind of see it as our norm. So internalized. Yeah, it's so internalized. And there's so much internalized misogyny as well, which we also don't think about. And I think I'm now aware of a lot of my own, you know, views and maybe. how I viewed other women in the past. And, you know, when we kind of learn that we can be together and we can work together, it's so much more empowering, so much more of an easier life. Is there hope?

Did you find the writing process cathartic in any way? It sounds like there was a sort of therapy to it. It was honestly so therapeutic. Yeah. Just, you know, like I said, taking a step back, viewing it from an outsider's lens, or view my body from an outsider's lens and how maybe I've treated it or how other people have treated it and how it really isn't my fault that I feel this way. But yeah, I mean, I wrote it after going through therapy

and seeing a psychiatrist as to why I was always going for these kinds of toxic, sometimes abusive relationships and why I kind of took it out on my body and you really see this kind of domino effect, you know, how one thing and one event in your life is the catalyst towards all the ways that you view your body, the relationships you go for, you know, the way that you speak about yourself. and I just think why do we wait until we're like 60, 65, 70 to finally feel okay about ourselves? We should really be thinking positively about ourselves now. Well, today we're going to talk about the books that have shaped the way that you see yourself,

the way that you see the world that have shaped you. So let's get into your first one, which is sleepovers by Jacqueline Wilson, who got a little whoop-whoop in the intro there because she is a legend. We actually had her on series seven of the last. bookshelfy and I loved it so much. Jacqueline Wilson's sleepovers is a funny and moving tale exploring bullying, disability and friendship. Amy, Bella, Chloe, Daisy and Emily are best friends at school. They even have their own alphabet club.

Daisy is the newest member and is desperate to fit in. But what will her new friends think of her sister? Now, you've described this book as the first book you read over and over again as a child. When were you first introduced to Jacqueline Wilson? And why did you pick this one? Oh gosh. I think every kind of girl, really, in that time. Right passage.

It was such a right passage. I mean, you'd go to everyone's house and you'd just have Jacqueline Wilson books everywhere. But I can't remember. I must have been about seven or eight when I started reading her book. I think made books. I think it was like Tracy Beaker probably. It was like the first one or what was it called the twins? What was it called?

Double act. Yeah, double act. Oh my God, yes. And I just, I loved her because I think she really understands children's feelings. and can really write about children's experiences in a way that not many people can. And I think she was also on the first authors that wrote from, you know, if we're talking about class, like from different classes and different experiences. You know, Tracy B. for example, grew up in care.

I think that was like one of the first books really where that was spoken about. But also I think that she writes about guilt and these kinds of feelings of shame in a way that many people don't understand. You know, so in this, in sleepovers, for example, the main character, she has a disabled sister. Now, obviously, the way that child might view disability is very different to an adult and the way that an adult might view disability. So she really writes it from a children's perspective and she has a lot of embarrassment about her friends coming around and seeing her very disabled sister at home. But in the end, her sister saves her and comes to her rescue. And so it's really sweet. It's about sisterhood.

It's about friendship. It's about ignoring bullies and just being true to yourself. And I think it's really sweet. Sometimes reading through a child's lens or perspective is useful for us as adults because we are so clouded by or our views are so clouded by the complexities of the world that we've come to understand. We've had to compromise so much of our moral compasses. Whereas that pure vision of a child sometimes helps us to really understand.

Yeah, exactly. and just not understanding, you know, the world, like only seeing it from a certain viewpoint and having all these new feelings that you don't quite understand. I think she wrote a book as well, like a few years later, called Love Lessons. And it was about a girl, I think she was 14 who had an affair with a, or not a sexual affair, but, you know, kissing this adult teacher. She was obviously being groomed. And I think it created kind of a lot of a bit of a shitstorm at the time because people were like, oh, you know, you're glorifying. She wasn't glorifying, no. But I don't think she was.

No, I think it was just explaining it from a 14th or. year old's point of view who is very naive, doesn't understand grooming at all, thinks that she's in love with this teacher who's just taking advantage of her. So again, I just think she's very, very clever at navigating those feelings. I remember the Jacqueline Wilson books that got passed around at school. Everyone wanted a piece of everyone and she was dealing with some quite difficult subjects, whether it was bullying, whether it was divorce, growing up in care. Yeah. And it educated us. Yeah. It has. It has. helped us. Yeah. And mental health as well. Yes. Yeah. You know, mental health, again,

in the 90s, wasn't really spoken about very much. And so, you know, you'd, you'd witness these, you know, parents who are perhaps going through mental health struggles and kind of of seeing it from that point of view. But I just love her. I think she's great. I think in illustrated mum, that was a real, yeah, a real exploration of mental health of a parent. Yeah. And even for the girls themselves, I mean, in girls, you know, the main character, Ellie, she has, I think, bulimia and anorex who becomes really obsessive. with her body. And again, reading it from that perspective, you know, teenage girls need this, I think. Have you returned to Jacqueline Wilson as an adult reader, whether any of the books

from your childhood or she's written some adult books as well? I've got them on my shelf. I still haven't read them. I need to read them. But yeah, I began reading the first one. What was it? Think again. Yeah. And I, yeah, I just, I don't know, there was something so nostalgic. It was also very clever that she did that, I think, and just, you know, coming back and doing it for women of our age again and just watching how the story unfolds. But yeah, I just, I love her. There's also a picture imperfect, which is the adult sequel to the illustrated mom. Yeah. Now, your children's novel Splash, it was endorsed by Jacqueline Wilson. She said a much needed book for young girls. How did it feel to receive that quote? Oh my gosh. I was literally ecstatic. I was like,

she was my favorite author growing up. And then, yeah, just to have her kind of vouch for it was just amazing. But it was just like in a very casual email. It was like, oh, Jacqueline's done a quote you and I was like, what? Are you talking about yet? Honestly, it was amazing, but I love her. How do you navigate writing for different age groups, whether it's adult books or children's books? Is it a different process for you? Or do you have to go to a different place in your head? Yeah, well, so Flesh is actually the first book I've written for adults. So I've done the children's book, the teenage book and now the adult's book. But growing up together. The growing up together books. But yeah, no, it is very different. Obviously, you know, there's

limitations on what you can write in children's and adult children's and teenage books. This one I've allowed to be you know, I've been able to be a bit more free with some of the subjects that I want to write about. But there's also a lot more pressure I think on it. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, and like the things you write and stuff. And I don't really want things to be almost like trauma porn. Like, you know, people kind of reading it and, you know, thinking it's entertainment for them when it's like a lot of it is my life and things like that. So yeah. But it's, it's really interesting. But I definitely want to write more for children. I love children.

And just that feeling to take ourselves back to when we were reading those Jacqueline Wilson books, that feeling of not being able to wait to get home. So you could carry on reading, the excitement. I just get to dive back into that world and then being a bit gutted when it's over because what am I going to do? Every child deserves that. Yeah, I think so. And I know there's like a big thing at the moment isn't there with talking about how important reading is for children. She really is, yeah.

And just, yeah, it is. It's so important. So, no, we love children's reading. More children's books. More children's books, please. Your second book, Shelfy book, is Hunger by Roxanne Gay. This book is a raw and unflinchingly honest memoir, exploring struggles with body image, trauma and self-acceptance. Through personal narrative and cultural critique, Roxanne sheds light on the complexities of living in a body that society deems unacceptable.

offering a profound and empathetic account of her journey with the bracing candor, vulnerability and authority that have made her one of the most admired voices of her generation. She's so brilliant. I love her. Tell us why you've chosen this book. Well, first of all, I loved the way the book was structured. The chapters were, you know, sometimes just a sentence. You know, they could be a paragraph. But what I thought was very interesting is she separates it into kind of the version of who she was before her sexual assault and then the version of.

herself afterwards. The way she describes the attitude that she has towards her body, I could really relate to because, you know, I didn't, I wasn't aware of how much, you know, sexual experiences had really impacted me and, you know, views towards my own body. But she also had bulimia and she also overate a lot. And so she talks a lot about, you know, this hunger of wanting to be accepted, this hunger of wanting to be loved and feeding yourself and wanting to become invisible to men, but then also kind of becoming bigger and so therefore not being respected in their eyes. It's this very, very complicated feeling and I think she really articulates it so well. And it's really sad. I mean, it's really raw. And, you know, she was raped as a child. And, you know,

it is very difficult to read at times. But I think that, again, so many women have unfortunately experienced that. Or if you haven't, you know, been raped, fingers crossed, you haven't. But, you know, you know, other forms of, you know, molestation and things like that. And so again, it's really navigating these points and how, you know, you reach these parts of your body that you just don't feel connected to. She talks about how it feels to be in her body and the way society deems her unacceptable, the shame that she feels because of that. I'd love to know how that resonates with you in working as a model because that's that under the spotlight. That is, you know, that's amplified.

Yeah. How did you feel in your body as a model? Well, I talk about this a lot because I think, you know, I say this in flesh. Like, I don't think I was ever maybe meant to be a model. Like I know that I'm not the prettiest person in the world. I really fought to be a model. That was, I genuinely thought that if I became a model, I would be loved, all my problems would go away. I would have, you know, endless affection and boys after me and things like that. You know, I was very insecure as a teenager, a bit overweight as a teenager as well.

And so modeling kind of offered me an escape. So I never really feel like I've ever been able to fully relax into it. I'm never going to be Kendall Jenner or Bella Hadeed or one of these girls. Oh, you're Charlie Howitt. Well, yeah, no, that's nice. But, you know, it's a strange one. It's almost like chasing this acceptance. And that need to kind of be accepted for beauty has definitely changed over time.

And I wish that more girls felt, you know, that way about themselves. It's a crazy industry. Yeah. I've been watching the documentary about America's Next Top Month. Oh, I just watched it. What the hell? Oh my gosh. Yeah, I know. The, I mean, talk about trauma porn and how the models' experiences and traumas were exploited. I mean, pulling people's teeth out. I mean, there's a lot of dental work in that. It's crazy. Crazy. Yeah. But it really made clear that it was, they kept saying it. It was a way of sort of getting away from any accountability. They kept saying it's a different time. But that doesn't make it okay. It doesn't excuse it, no. And it's no. And it's no. And it's no. wonder so many girls, women, I used to watch that show religiously, it's no wonder we've felt so unhealthily towards their own bodies. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the thing as well, you know, women are told that beauty is the most important thing. It's either beauty, it's either looking good,

or it's getting married, having children. And so if you don't achieve those things, you ultimately feel like a failure. But beauty is something, again, I speak about, you know, in my book, and I think so many people relate to, where it's almost like your life can be made. And we sell this idea that if you're beautiful, everything will be okay, everything will fall into place. It just doesn't work like that. And inevitably, you know, when we do age, that, you know, the attention from men goes away. So we spend our life trying to chase this male validation, whether we're aware of it or not. And actually, we don't need to.

Like, you know, we need to be okay in ourselves. Yeah. The pursuit of that is never ending and therefore it's never going to be fulfilling. No, it's never going to be fulfilling. But, you know, like you said, I grew up on that show as well. I absolutely loved it. we had magazines constantly talking about weight loss, beauty, you know, why you shouldn't have cellulite, modeling competitions, you know, all this kind of thing. It was like beauty was the gateway

towards everything. And I think that's why so many of us of this of our generation are probably screwed up because, you know, of this just difficult, impossible ideal. And then now, of course, you've got social media, TikTok, Instagram, where we're just, we constantly see pictures every day. And I found myself even like recently, you know, like looking at these pictures of girls. and I'm like, they're 20 years old. They're like 15 years younger, however old I am, like younger than I am now. And so why am I kind of comparing myself to the? Yeah, it's crazy.

I want to say things have got better. And we watch that documentary and we look back and go, oh, it was terrible then, but it's better now. But like you say, social media has changed things again. And it could be worse. But Roxanne's book does end on a hopeful note, on a note of self-acceptance and compassion for the bodies that our patriarchal society rejects. Yeah. Your book looks at the toll of long-term sexual objectification, misogyny on the female body,

and how this damage can be undone. How do you think we can collectively heal? Well, I think so much of it is education. And I think it's opportunity. Actually, when I was just having my makeup done outside guys. And I was talking to the glam squad because I was saying, like, isn't it wonderful? Like at the Bafters, for example, we're just seeing these older women getting into film now and being awarded for that and just seeing them on the red carpet. I think that's so incredible for me to see as well.

I don't know if you feel the same way. But I think for a long time, 30 was like a cutoff point. Yeah. And it was like, if you're 30, obsession with youth. Even like 21. I mean, when I got into modelling, I was really old by like comparatively. So I was going to castings with girls who were like 15, 16. And I was about 21 when I started.

So I've kind of still got that ageism kind of thing in my head. But I think that is starting to change now. So I think so much of it, again, like I said, is education. and educating boys as well. I think it's so important. I think the onus just isn't on girls to be like, yeah, love your body. You know, it's very different.

I think we need to talk about self-love in a different way, and I have a chapter called hearts, which is, you know, and whole as well, which is about coming back to yourself and learning to love yourself. But how do you do that? I think it's spending time with people that make you feel good about yourself.

It's coming off of social media. It's about, you know, ingraining yourself within culture and art and music and things that make you feel really good. And honestly, slowly this idea of needing to be perfect or need to be beautiful, it will melt away. And even since writing the book, I mean, you know, the attitudes that I have towards my own body and beauty is completely changed. Like, I really don't focus that much on the way I look anymore. And I feel

like maybe some of that is because of my age now and the fact I'm getting older. But I just, I don't know, I'm just feeling a lot more confident in who I am. Someone asked me the other day, what does beauty mean to you? And I really surprised myself with the answer because I guess it's something I used to be obsessed with, but I thought about it. I thought beauty means nature. Nature is beauty to me. And I didn't realize I felt that way. That's where I feel happiest, most content, most peaceful is when I'm in nature. And Rosalia said something recently. She said there are no perfect mirrors in nature. We're not meant to look at ourselves as much as we're supposed to look at others. And it rang so true. I feel most comfortable in nature because I'm not

looking at myself. I'm looking outwards. And you don't need to. too. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? I think there's so much expectation all the time to look good, perform and kind of view your body from an outsider's lens. And when you kind of ignore that outsider's lens, that's when you can truly live your most authentic life. Well, speaking of your most authentic life, let's talk about the third book that has shaped you that you have loved. And it's the eyes of the best part. Oh my gosh. By Monica Kim. I love horror. I think it's great. There's so much like Asian literature coming out now and it's really it's amazing to watch

I know that everyone I mean I love K beauty speaking of beauty I love you know K beauty products K-pop what was the film that was on Netflix

that came out last year SquidGame Demon Hunters Oh yeah K-pop demon hunters Love that Yeah love squid games

There's been some brilliant novels as well yeah like you say coming out of Asia with this whole different perspective Yeah

like butter Yeah yeah I love butter I was gripped yeah but no this one, I just, I thought it was great because it talks a lot about the fetishization. I think I've

said that right, fetishization of Asian women. And in the end, I'm not going to get the story away, but in the end, she commits a murder because of it. But again, I think that part of my, you know, research, my own book was trying to really understand different cultures, you know, different women's experiences, you know, living, living as a woman nowadays. And there are loads of things, you know, we take for granted. But I think as well, women of colour tend to be, described as like edible. So you know, you have like mocha or or chocolate or things like that. Even white women to an extent, you know, vanilla or whatever. It's like women's bodies are seen as these edible objects. Consumable. You know, things that you can bite into and things like that. And it's like,

no, we're actually human beings. So I think, again, going back to your other question about how do we move forward, it's just about seeing people as humans, seeing women as human. It would be a nice start, wouldn't it? It would be nice to not be viewed that way. But yeah, I love this, but I love gore and like Yeah, so it's a bit gross at times. I love the variety that we have on your list today. Well, the eyes are the best part by Monica Kim. It's a novel which opens with her narrator, G1's life in disarray. Her father's affair has ripped the family to shreds,

leaving her to piece their lives back together. Then their mother's new white boyfriend enters the scene, bragging about his knowledge of Korean culture, as he swaggeres around their claustrophobic apartment, ogling her teenage sister, G1's grip on reality begins to slip. She finds herself growing obsessed with his brilliant blue eyes, resolving to do the one thing that will save her family and curb her cravings.

I'm sure you can guess what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Are you usually drawn to fiction that has a sort of satirical bite and these very messy heroines? I just love, excuse my French, fucked up people. Yes. And like fucked up books. Like I love reading about them.

I want to get into their brain. I've just started reading American Psycho for the first time as well. Oh, that'll do it. Yeah, that'll do it. I love it. I mean, I am a bit of a true crime drunky as well. But anything that's like a bit messed up and spooky and like I just, I love that. Bit of a bit of a change from sleepovers, let's be honest.

But yeah. No, but it's the range. It's the balance. We love to see it. You did just mention that you found this book particularly illuminating when it came to the fetishization of women's bodies, particularly women of colour, that is something that you write about. Where do you see the similarities and the differences in how women's bodies are fetishized and objectified versus men's? Oh gosh, I mean, where do we begin? Yeah. I mean, honestly, like just if you're a woman,

you're listening, you'll just know, do you know what I mean? But, I mean, again, my experiences as a white woman are going to be very different to someone of colors, like experiences. Yeah, we have to be intersectional about. Yeah, we have to be intersectional. But I, um, but I, um, Oh gosh. I mean, you know what I find really interesting about the women's body's things is that we never expect men to prove how confident they are by sexualizing themselves. Whereas with women, it's almost like if you post a selfie of yourself in a bikini or with your boobs out, it's like, yeah, you know, that's really empowering. And for a long time, I kind of viewed that as empowerment myself. I mean, I sometimes still do it. Like I've done it. I look up to other women who have kind of sexualized themselves. But that expectation isn't put on men. We don't. We're not. like, yeah, you know, put a pair of speedos on and put it on the internet and then you must love yourself and you must love your body and you must be so sex positive. Like we just, we're just treated completely differently. They're not saying anything. No, they don't. You're right. It's either that you're super body positive and empowered or the flip side is that you're flaunting

yourself, you know, full of yourself or, you know, I've been on TV and worn either something that shows my legs or maybe it's a bit low cut and being called literally a slut. or a whore and how? But you also can't win, by the way. You can't win. Yeah, because if you then don't do that, then they're like, oh, you know, you're prudish or you're, I don't know, it's almost like we have to prove how sexy we are by showing more skin or, you know, kind of objectifying ourselves to a degree. But you're always saying something.

It's a statement, it's a comment. Sometimes I'm just wearing clothes. I just want to wear it. I'm just wearing clothes. It makes me feel good. Maybe I'm ovulating right now and I feel a bit sexier. Maybe I want to cover myself up. I don't feel as good, you know.

It's always... Maybe I'm cold. Yeah, but it's always like, like you said, you've always got to find a meaning towards what a woman, what a woman does. And it's so intrinsically linked to her body and her, you know, sense of self, really. And it shouldn't be.

When you're navigating in your work, in your book, how you feel about your own body, how do you consolidate doing something really quite deeply personal, but very publicly? Well, again, this is something I'm kind of trying to navigate myself because I definitely had moments where I was like, is that a bit of an overshare?

Am I going to regret writing about this? But I actually saw Giselle Pelico the other day. She did a live talk. And, you know, she's incredible. She talks about how shame must change sides. So I think there's so much positivity and courage and empowerment, really, in just sharing your stories. And, you know, in the past where I've talked about, you know,

other issues like financials. abuse or, you know, when I've been doing the deep fake porn lobbying, you know, at Parliament and things like that, you see how many women, we all share the same experiences. So I think just by talking about these things and by sharing them, that is a really amazing thing to do. So you have to think about, I think, how talking about these issues can actually do the world a better service. It feels like you really do take your experiences, whether they've been challenging, good or bad and throw them into trying to help others, help other women specifically. Well, I'd like to think I do.

You know, it's not always comfortable, but I think that you'd be surprised at how many people actually resonate with you, but also want to support you, and how many people have just been through the same thing. So if we talk about these things, it takes them out of the shadows, it takes them out of this, you know, very scary place and makes it less shameful. And I think that's really important. We're going to take a short break now to hear from our friends. at Find My Past. Sponsors of the 2026 Women's Prize for Nonfiction about their exciting new podcast.

Well, it's been a lovely chance for me to remember her and to understand her a bit more. And to, I think, write a quite ordinary person back into history. A Family History of is the brand new podcast that takes you inside the lives of everyday people at pivotal moments in Britain and Ireland's past. In the first three-part series, renowned historian Lucy Worsley uncovers how two world wars shaped her grandmother's life. Listen to a family history of wherever you get your podcast. This episode of Bookshelfy is sponsored by Bayleys. Bayleys is proudly supporting the 2026 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baileys.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Charlie, your fourth bookshelfy book is Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood. In this best-selling psychology book, leading relationship and marriage therapist Robin Norwood reveals why many women are repeatedly drawn into unhappy and destructive relationships and then struggle to make them work. She examines why we get into in healthy dynamics and how powerfully addictive they are and shares her effective framework for finding and sustaining love.

Now, you've described this as the book that you give to everyone. Like, read it, read it. Press it into their hands. Why is that? Because I think so many women we settle and we chase love that, It's very unrewarding. It's very one-sided. I mean, you know, I probably speak on behalf of myself.

But, no, there's so many people that I know who, you know, who go through these relationships and you're just like, what are you doing? Like, why are you with this person? And it's almost like wanting to be loved for the sake of being loved. But if you don't love yourself, it's never going to happen. And you're just going to repeat the same cycles and the same problems over and over and over again. And I mean, I physically cringe, honestly, at some of the things that I've done in relationships.

So try and keep guys that. I'm like, why? Looking back, oh. One guy's flat, smelt of bins. And I was like, and yet, I was like, you know, obsessed with him for some reason. Why did I do that? And now I don't look back and I'm just like, this is so cringe. Or just like, oh, I'm actually too embarrassed to even talk about some of these things.

But sometimes they come back to you and I could just be walking through the street and I remember. I'm like, what? I don't know what the ground's walled me up. I can't believe I was that person. But, you know, had to go through it to get through it. Yeah, exactly. And now obviously you're very happily married. But yeah, it's very interesting actually.

You know, since reading this book, my attitudes towards dating have really changed. And I was like, celibate for a long time. I wasn't going on dates for a long time. And I feel so much, I've really come home to myself because I'm like, I'm not going to put up with the same kind of stuff that I put up with before. And again, I'm like, trying to block some of the things out.

But I'm, yeah, I'm embarrassed for myself. But I also know that, again, like you said, you have to go through these things to rediscover yourself. And it's amazing, actually, like, you know, the guy, it changes the way that you view people on dating apps. It views the way and the behavior that, you know, you put upwards on dates because I've also spoken about this, how dating has become so over-sexualized. And again, like, you'll turn up on dates and guys will be like, you know, your tits look great. And you're like, how can you say that? Like, why would you say that in a day?

Not even, sometimes you don't even get to the date and they're already sexualizing you, you know, in the comments or, you know, on the messages and things like that. And I'm just like, really, this is what those things become, is it, you know? So, um, Yeah, I think sometimes taking a break from it is a good thing. You know what, with those apps and I was on them for many, many years. And I actually, I used to work as a virtual dating assistant. Did you? What did they involve?

This is back in the days of Match.com and plenty of fish. So these were rather than apps, it was more the websites. Yeah. I used to do people's online dating for them. So I would make their profile. I know. It was a writing job on Craigslist. So it was an interesting job.

I didn't even know this job except. There's a job for everything. I don't know if it would exist anymore, but at the time, I was a struggling student. I needed the money. I think it kind of does exist because let me tell you, right, I was approached, oh God, about two years ago now by this elite dating service. And I was really, like, anxious about signing up to it because I was like, is this like a weird prostitution thing?

I don't know. But I was like, so I did my research. And I was like, oh, no, actually, they've got really good reviews. They are literally just these dating, these. people that create dating apps for you or dating profiles for you they make a document for you like literally a PowerPoint presentation

and they will go out and they will meet you that is that basically yeah well kind of yeah and so I was like oh this is going to be amazing when they meet someone who's really interesting like dating agency I guess which is absolutely a thing I met the women from it yeah they seem elite matchmakers

and so they made this profile and they said right what we're going to I literally had to fill out a form that was like five pages long about all my interests you know what I'm about what I'm doing what I want for the future, what I want my partner to do and things like that. So I was like, oh, I'm going to meet my husband. This is going to be great.

And then they sent me my profile to like approve. And they just, even though I'd sent them all these really nice pictures of me fully clothed, they sent, they literally, the document was full of me in pictures of bikinis. And I was like, no, come on, guys, no. Like absolutely not. Anyway, do you want to hear this date? Go on. Go on.

Because this is the light that they've shown you in online. So they were like, we've got this guy's a film producer. So I was like, oh, amazing. Very interesting. Very interesting. He was doing this very big film that was going to come out. I was like, amazing. This is right on my street.

I find this fascinating. They'd use a pseudonym. I can't remember what let's call him Adam. It wasn't Adam. But, you know, and they said, why don't you meet up with him? He seems really great. So I said, okay, great. So he gets my number.

He texts me. And he says, do you want to do FaceTime? So I said, okay. So we go on FaceTime. He facetimes me, ladies and gentlemen, from a William Hill Betting show. at 7 o'clock at night and I was like

oh were you out and about and I'd like you know doing you gambling yeah I was like you know trying to make myself you know look very elegant and everything and my face time and I was like why is he in a William Hill betting shop

and he was like oh you know so I hear that you work in film he was like yeah yeah I don't even want to talk about that now because I'm out in public I was like well why did you face why we don't have to do this yeah you offered to FaceTime we'll do it another time yeah and I was like oh okay and I was like you know what

obviously now is not a good time do you want to meet up so I reached out to the to this dating matchmaker and I was like look I think this is a bit strange like and she went yeah he feels the same way I'm like I bet your pardon I've like made myself look very nice for this day anyway whatever so we agreed to me up and we go to this restaurant and he's at the bar and he goes oh just so you know I'm a recovering alcoholic and I said oh is that non-alcoholic then he goes no and I was like oh my god right okay so already I was like this is going to be a long day so we sit there I tried to be really interested about his job.

He clearly wasn't very interested in me. And then he booked a cinema. For the both of you. For the both of us. Which is a bit strange for a first date as well. But I thought maybe it's because he's in film. Maybe it's, you know. You can't chat.

You can't get to know each other. So we had this meal. That was very nice. And then we go to the cinema. At the end of the date, it was pouring with rain. And I was like, oh, I'll just, you know, you can go if you want. Like, it's fine. He goes, okay, leaves me in the pouring rain.

And then weirdly, like, I've never had a date with that. No second date. Or a second date. But I was like, why have you put me through this? It's so transactional. I think my main takeaway from both being on dating apps and also doing this as a job was that we're not supposed to just tick boxes and say, listen, the man of my dreams could be out there.

But because I tick the box that says no dogs, if he's got a dog, I'm never going to meet him. Like people are sample products. We're like food. You've got to taste it. You don't just look at the nutritional value. We need to have a taste. Yeah. But this is the thing with dating apps, isn't it?

is because it literally treats you like an object. An object, yeah. It's just like swipe, swipe, swipe, oh, that person is two years older than I would have liked. I'm not going to go and date her. Or, you know, they, yeah, like you said, they like cats. Oh, therefore I can't go out with them. It's like you have to be open-minded. But I really hate how transactional it is.

Yeah. Yeah, it's not for me. And it is that objectification, I think, that underpins the problem with them, the apps, and also just our society as a whole. just back to the book very briefly, women who love too much, do you think that from pressing this into your friend's hands, there's any doomed relationships that you've saved? Oh my gosh.

I mean, it's like the blind leading the bloody blind, isn't it really? I don't know. I'd like to hope so, but who bloody knows? Who knows? Well, what I do know is it's time to talk about your fifth and final book-shelphi book, Charlie, which is I'm glad my mom died by Jeanette McCurdy. I mean, you can tell from the title. My mum saw it and she was like, I beg you pardon.

Yeah. I think she thought it was like an insult towards her. I love this book. Well, this was everywhere for a bit. I remember when it was being written about in every publication. Everything, yeah. Told with raw honesty and equal parts, gravity and humour, I'm glad my mum died is a shocking memoir by I Carly and Sam and Cat star Jeanette McCurdy

about her struggles as a former child actor, including eating disorders, addiction, a complicated relationship with her overbearing mother and how she retook control of her life. Yeah. This had a strong hook for you, right? How did you come across this book? So I was actually in America at the time, and I love looking at bookshops.

Also, I love American book covers. They're normally like, they're just very cool. Anyway, I was in this bookshop, and I saw it, and I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. And I've got to be honest, I didn't actually know who Jeanette McCurdy was. But I just thought it was really interesting, you know, this kind of child star

who'd dealt with, like, very bad narcissistic abuse. and I've definitely dated partners who are a million percent narcissistic. So I kind of resonated in that way. But it was really funny. Obviously, I kind of related to her with the eating disorder aspect and kind of Blee me. I think she writes about it in a very open way. But it's also got like twists and turns and you're just like, oh my God.

But it talks a lot about Nickelodeon at the time. And, you know, there was a documentary about how there was a lot of child abuse there as well. And yeah, it's just shocking. But actually as a model, I remember doing a job with like a seven-year-old girl once. I had to be her mum. And she didn't want to be there. And it was just these parents that were just pushing her into wanting to be this child star, basically. And it was like, you know, a school day, this girl didn't want to be there.

And I remember being like, oh, you know, do you like modeling? And she goes, no, I want to be at school with my friends. Oh, bless her. And then she started playing up because she didn't want to be there. She wasn't, she wasn't cooperating. She's seven. Yeah. And she got told off by the producer.

And she was like, you know, you need to behave yourself and all that kind of thing. And the parents are like, oh my God, no, like she's normally so good. And that's like the worst American accent ever. But, you know, no, she's normally so good, you know, and everything. And I just felt so sorry for her. I was like, she doesn't want to be here. And it's like these parents living their lives through children. And unfortunately, there's a lot of it as well, which you see in this industry.

I'm sure you've seen it as well. But yeah, so it was very, very interesting. But there's like a twist at the end where you just don't see coming. And it's really funny. But she's a really great example as well, because she has now, you know, left the acting side and she's working more in, like, writing, production. She's an amazing writer.

I've just bought her new book as well. I need to, like, dive into that. But, yeah, just great. Yeah, that trope of the mother living vicariously through their child star. I mean, shocking, though. Some of the things that she says, like, is something that a mother should not say.

Being so fame-hungry. Yeah. In a world where we really seem to value fame, which I think is insane because it's, I think, It's really bad. I think it's the worst part of the job if you do a job that's in the public eye. Well, again, I mean, I know you've interviewed loads of them and obviously, you know, I'm sure you've also, you know, experienced that.

But yeah, I mean, it's fame is like is a side that I think people just do not understand. And again, you know, a bit like beauty, you think, oh, if I become famous, everything's going to be great. No. No, that's, pursuing that is never going to be fulfilling. No, and I see so many people who do seek it and they just lose themselves. Well, they get it and they lose the fame. And it's, yeah, it's. very strange. I think when it's a side effect

of doing something that you love you know, fair enough it is but if you really love that thing that's actually quite an annoying side of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and just people it must be yeah, just very intense but no, I just love

the fact that she's kind of reclaimed herself and her body and gone after her own dreams rather than like her mother's dreams and I think if you're interested in film and culture and things like that even if you don't know who she is it's It's fascinating. I've read that your childhood was quite nomadic and with your dad's career in the Royal Navy.

Moving around a lot. Do you see any parallels? I mean, it's obviously a very different reason to be moving around a lot. But do you see any parallels between your experience and Jeanette's account of growing up in Hollywood in this very fast-paced, sort of crazy environment? Well, no. I mean, you know, for me, I think it was so opposite to like anything that I could have had. For me, you know, I felt my life was very boring. you know, we moved so many times.

I've honestly lost count of how many times we've moved. I think I've lived in like 30 different places. And so my brain is always ready to move, always ready to move forward. But no, I mean, my parents were very anti that whole child acting thing. Actually, it was really weird. I remember being in school once

and there was a girl in my class whose dad was a commercials director. And I must have been about eight or nine and I went up alongside another friend of mine. And it was when CGI was kind of, you know, becoming a thing. it was a dancing baby advert. So they needed a baby's head.

A classic. Why were there so many of those? I feel like it was a time, wasn't it? And then, you know, you had to dance like this, you know, being a dancing baby. But I was actually quite skinny, like when I was eight or nine. So I lost out to my friend who was just a bit, you know, had a lot more puppy fat. And I was so gutted that I missed this advert. And then I saw it on TV all the time and just being like really upset about it.

And my mum saw how gutted I was. And she was like, you're never doing that again. You are never doing an audition ever again because I was so upset that I wasn't a dance. baby in a nappy. But yeah. What a sentence, Charlie. She was like, no. This is actually the second memoir on your list. Have you always gravitated towards this genre of being able to delve into the life of someone who's real, who exists? I love memoirs. Yeah, I know for most people, they probably like, you know, fiction and stuff. I love memoirs. I love hearing about people's lives, people's lives who are so different to mine. I'm just fascinated by people and especially by women.

I just, I love hearing women's stories. So like my whole bookshelf is literally just memoir, memoir, memoir of women. But yeah, I mean, everyone's got a story to tell. And everyone's got a life to tell. And I just find that so interesting. And with those stories to tell what we need and what we are all about here at the women's prize is handing over the microphone, giving women that platform, that voice. So I would love to finish by asking you, how do you give the women that you aim to help with your stories, their voices back?

Oh gosh. Again, I think it's about just conversation and just about sharing stories and allowing women to talk. You know, if you share something on Instagram, for example, or through an article, you know, you kind of get inundated with people being like, I've experienced that as well. And I just think it allows women to share their truths and what they've been through. And like I said, you really realize that things like misogyny, abuse are so common. And so it not only makes me feel less alone, but I think it makes other women feel less alone. And your book certainly is set to do that too. Buy it.

Good luck with it. Well, I do actually have one more question for you, Charlie. If you did have to pick one book from your list that you brought today as a favorite, which would it be and why? Probably Jeanette McCurdy because it fits into that memoir style. You know, it talks about fame. It talks about abuse. It talks about eating disorders, mental health, romantic relationships, toxic relationships. It's kind of all the things.

Everything's all in there. A lot of things to unpack. But there's also humour in there. There's love in there. There's heart in there. And so, yeah, I think that one, actually. Well, thank you for all the things and for the love, the humour and the heart. Charlie, it's been so lovely to chat to you.

Thank you for having me. I'm Vic Hope. And that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize. Supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books that we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org shelf where every purchase supports independent bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust, a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing.

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