Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S9 Ep2: Bookshelfie: Harriet Tyce

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

Fresh from her recent Traitors appearance, author and former barrister Harriet Tyce talks to Vick about the brilliance of female crime writers, her biggest literary crush and THAT moment with Rachel in the confessional at the Traitors castle.Harriet left behind a career in criminal law to complete a Masters in Creative Writing at the University of East Anglia. In 2019, she published her debut novel Blood Orange, which follows attorney Alison as she defends a woman accused of murder and jeopardises her own picture-perfect life in the process. Harriet followed this with three other standalone crime thrillers: The Lies You Told, It Ends At Midnight and A Lesson in Cruelty. Earlier this year, she joined Series 4 of The Traitors, becoming a firm fan favourite for her authenticity and audacious approach to the game. Her fifth novel Witch Trial – a courtroom drama centred on the murder of a teenager in an Edinburgh park and the two friends who stand accused – is out now.Harriet’s book choices are:**Apple Tree Yard by Louise Doughty**The Lymond Chronicles: The Game of Kings by Dorothy Dunnett**The Last of Earth by Deepa Anappara**Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert**Luckenbooth by Jenni FaganYou can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

The Bell Air Direct app includes crash assist, which detects an accident the moment it happens, and even offers you emergency assistance at the tap of a button. Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Coming up on Vic Shelby. The whole thing was a complete gamble.

I mean, walking into the confessional and challenging Rachel, calling out Rachel's name in the way that I did was... Bold, Harriet. Mental. I think is what I was... would say. The biggest compliment that I have been paid about any of my work was when I was told that Blood Orange had caused a divorce. And that was because Blood Orange actually, you know, yes, it's a page turner. Yes, it has a grabby cover. It's got a grabby title. And it's got, you know, it has got page turning ability. Though, I mean, is that such a bad thing? It has a

plot. But the thing about it also, though, is that it does deal with themes of coercive control, of gaslighting, of domestic violence. And through reading it, someone recognised that the relationship, that the marriage that they were in was actually one that was emotionally abusive. Wow. He's actually a lot fissor than Rupert Campbell Black because, you know, he can quote lots of poetry. He's not just there talking to his dogs. He's a polymath.

He's a swordsman. He's superb. Hello, I'm Vic Hope and this is Bookshelfy, the podcast from the Women's Prize that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Now, before we begin, remember to subscribe or follow so you never miss an episode, with thanks to our sponsor, Bailey's.

Today, I'm joined by crime writer and TV's favorite faithful Harriet Tice. Harriet left behind a career in criminal law to complete a master's in creative writing at the University of East Anglia. In 2019, she published her debut novel, Blood Orange, which follows Attorney Allison, as she defends a woman accused of murder, and jeopardises her own picture-perfect life in the process.

Harriet followed this with three other standalone crime thrillers. The lies he told, it ends at midnight and a lesson in cruelty. Earlier this year, she joins Series 4 of The Traitors, becoming a firm fan favourite for her authenticity and audacious approach to the game. Her fifth novel, Witch Trial, a courtroom drama centred on the murder of a teenager in an Edinburgh park, and the two friends who stand accused is out now. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much for having me. I have to die straight into the traitors. Yeah. Because it really did feel like you used your background as a barrister to play the game. But I'd love to know how you used your acumen and your insight as a crime writer to play the game. I think that it was that storytelling ability that actually led me to have the intuition I did into working out who, was a traitor because in terms of pulling stories together, I think I'm very good at taking disparate parts and then weaving them into something solid, you know, in a book. And that kind of rather

wiffly intuition, you know, where I sort of sit in bed and think about things and then ideas come to me when I'm doing the washing up. It's not concrete. It's not forensic. It's just allowing I suppose my instinct to guide me in the right direction. And it turned out that making stuff up was exactly what I needed to be able to do to be able to work out, you know, who was telling the truth and who wasn't. I can't explain it otherwise because I had no idea whether I would be any good and whether it would help when I went in. But yeah, that's my only explanation because I think the barrister training helped when it came to Brown Table.

it helped when it came to advocacy, when it came to, you know, being able to hold my own in what is quite an intimidating environment. And I was able to present my case. I mean, certainly when I had more evidence, I was able to present my case well. But it, it, that wasn't, I think, what was giving me the ability to work out who was lying. And that, I don't know, it was a gut instinct. And I sort of, it was not. I was right. Yes, you were right. Over and over again with Hugo, the take down was it was like a courtroom. However, with Rachel and Fiona, it was. It was like you'd come up with the stories. Obviously, for those of us watching, we knew that it was true because we could see it, but you didn't. No, I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't know, but I did know. And it was,

the whole thing was a complete gamble. I mean, walking into the confessional and challenging Rachel, calling out Rachel's name in the way that I did was, bold, Harriet. Mental, I think is what I would say. I don't know. Some moments demand drama. And when I walked up to see that the flaming braziers on either side of the door and the smoke and the dark and the, it was an entirely believable environment. It was a completely real environment. And it would have been, I think, churlish not to have done what I did, to have stood there and said, what do you like for breakfast?

How do you peel your hard boiled eggs? Or, you know, sort of some way of, you know, maybe. trying to get them to reveal themselves by behaviours. But at the same time, I wouldn't say, I think that was a real crime writer move. You know, do the dramatic twist rather than a barrister move because a barrister, I think, would have been a lot more sensible. And I think that we all need to remember that I stopped being a barrister decades ago. And I was never very good at it.

Really, Harry. Yeah, no, really, because I was chaotic in my 20s. I was really chaotic. and I wasn't disciplined and I didn't have a particularly good work ethic and I drank too much. Oh, all these things. Okay. You know, it's a fairly high, it's a very high-oxygen kind of job. And if I were to do it now, I think I would do it actually very well, I say that. But, you know, I would, I would certainly be able to approach it with a much better head on my shoulders. But I just don't think this I was brilliantly equipped for it. And this was in the 90s, you know, it was the sort of height of Ladegh culture. I was doing the Lodette thing.

You know, at college, I made a point of out-drinking the men's rugby team, the men's college, you know, the college rowing, all of that. I could down a pint in three seconds. I was really proud of these. And actually, when I say it now, I'm like, yeah, you know, that's not bad three seconds. It's very quick, actually. It's very quick and it's not healthy. It's very bad for you.

But I think that what that did mean was that working in an environment where flexibility and late nights and it just wasn't it wasn't right for me but what it did do though was give me that huge experience because you know in a short period of time i packed in a lot of court i packed in a lot of travel across the southeast and it has meant that the repurposing of it into fiction is something that has given my work i think an authenticity that it simply wouldn't have had under any other circumstances. So even though it was a failed career in some ways, it's been quite a successful career in other. Nothing is ever wasted. I mean, I'm sure you find this when you speak to every other writer that everything in your life is something that will find its way onto the page in one way

or another, isn't it? Every chapter will become a part of your story and it absolutely has. And if we fast forward to this part that we're in right now, you're writing witch trial's out now. Can you tell us a little bit about it. Yes, well it's it's a story of a trial of I mean as as you said in the introduction it's a trial of two teenage girls. They are being done for the murder of one of their former friends and classmates a girl called Christian who has been found dead in an Edinburgh park and the thing about these girls is that they are or believe themselves to be witches they have been in a little coven at school. I mean, the what if behind the book, in a way, was what if the girls from the craft, that 90s film,

what if they got done for murder? And so this in a way was an exploration of that. However, it's not told specifically from their perspectives. Because I think that if I had tried to present a book about teenage witches, it would have reached a good audience, but it might have alienated other of my readers. It would be quite specific. Exactly that, exactly that. And so I have framed it in the perspective and from the narrative perspective of a middle-aged man who's a heart surgeon called Matthew and he is called to be a juror on the trial. And so we see it largely from his perspective as it opens, you know, from start to finish. And, you know, his increasing immersion in the world that the girls are, describing and the rituals that they have taken part in and what has led to this girl's death.

But it shifts perspective not just from his, but various of the witnesses. And I think possibly my favourite, who is a vicar, who's very cross about what Fleabag has done for the reputation of the church. So it's a book that I had a huge amount of fun writing, even though it deals with some quite dark subjects. And I think it, you know, and it goes into the, cult to an extent and it goes into the supernatural. But as to whether it's true, that is something I prefer to leave ambiguous.

Well, we're going to delve into the books that have shaped you. And I know this first one gave you a license to follow this path into crime writing. So we're going to talk first about Apple Tree Yard by Louise Doughty. A number one bestseller with over half a million copies sold. Apple Tree Yard follows Yvonne Carmichael, a respected figure. female scientist with a beautiful home and a good marriage. Suddenly, her picture of perfect life is shattered when a single, reckless decision leads to her standing trial for murder.

Tell us why you chose this. So in itself, it is a superb literary thriller. It is the perfect example of why crime fiction should not be regarded as lesser than any other kind of literature. I mean, Louise Doughty is an exceptional author who crosses genre with the work that she does. I mean, she is not a crime writer. You know, she has done work which is more literary. But this is simply, it's a very, very good novel.

And the character Yvonne Carmarical, who is a scientist, is fascinating. In fact, I visited the House of Commons yesterday because I went to see Prime Minister's question time. And sadly, I was not shown the cupboard. But there is a cupboard in the House of Commons where Emily Davidson Wilding hid the night before the suffragette vote, which has a plaque in it. Only this is not used for such a high purpose in the novel because it is where there is a rather inappropriate liaison that Yvonne Car Michael participates in and that leads basically to the complete collapse of her life.

but the thing about that book and it's nothing to do though really with the plot though it's exceptional with the writing which is brilliant is the acknowledgement and it was very very short acknowledgements and it thanked

and in the Louise Doughty thanks Barrister with whom she had spent a month going to the old Bailey to watch a trial so that she could get some first-hand experience of a trial before she wrote the novel

and it was at that moment that the penny dropped when I had been writing these really bleak feminist dystopian you know clify awful books nobody wanted this is what you're trying to explore yeah this is what i was trying to do and they were terrible they were really depressing i hated writing them nobody wanted to read them the whole thing was you know it was it was just the the years when one is trying to get an agent and actually get anywhere and i read those acknowledgments and i thought you know what i actually did a job that people might be interested in i've got this i've got the

I've got something exactly that and I know what I'm talking about here. And I had had a mentor at one stage. You said, you know, people love hearing about other people's jobs. And this is true. You know, if you look at like convenience storement, there are so many books that we could name that are about people's jobs. And so that for me was the breakthrough moment when I thought, well, I don't actually need to go and do any more research about rising sea levels, which is good. I didn't want to. I'm not in denial.

I just would prefer not to spend too long on it. And it was what opened the gate really mentally to my writing Blood Orange. And, you know, that even the title is a, you know, there's a fruit-based nod to it. So, no, I will always be very grateful to that book for showing me that there was a way forward. That's really been instrumental in the direction of your career path. Yeah, yeah. And when it comes to your research, when you're writing characters or you're adding texture, people, place, how do you research where do you turn?

I read a lot, you know, I read a lot of fiction around the subject. I mean, which trial I think is the book that has had the most research that I've needed to do. I mean that the first three books I wrote were all about female barristers who drank too much. So there wasn't really that much research needed, frankly. I'd done it or I'd done it, lived that. The fourth was about prison and people, someone who'd been released from prison and ideas I had about prison. reform and so for that I you know I sort of read fiction I read crime and punishment I listened to some podcasts and it was the same for witch trial only I mean there is a wealth of material available

about the supernatural not just books about witch trials not just books about how to read tarot but also Reddit has got subreddits on how to be a witch there's witch talk you can buy hexes on Etsy. I can never say that. Hexes on Etsy. Exactly. You see, well done. You've got it. You can articulate that. Hects on Exxie. Yeah, no, it's just a horrible tongue twister. And then I listen to podcasts because, you know, podcasts are huge and you can listen to it while you're, you know, driving and it's, you don't actually have to sit down.

And then just deep dives on the internet, watching documentaries. I mean, really anywhere that I can get. I didn't actually reach out to try and talk to a real life, which I felt that that would be perhaps a step too far. But I did teach myself slightly how to read tarot cards. So that was quite interesting. And do you still have any hexes that you purchased on Etsy? I never purchased a hex.

I bought a book about called Of Blood and Bones, which I actually reference in the text of the novel. And that has various, shall we say, recipes for things that one could do. So I'm going to keep that in my back pocket. You sort of touched on it just before, but sometimes crime fiction gets a bit of a bad rap. Yeah. And we were just, before we started recording,

we were looking at some of these incredible titles on the shelf behind me, who we love on the Women's Prize. We've got Barbara Kingselsovers, Stephen Copperhead, and Mandon, Gaudsie Deaches, Harfiel, a son, Hamlet, Maggio Fowarrow. I mean, classics, modern classics. But there is no reason

that these hugely successful pieces of literature just because they are about crime and their thrillers. shouldn't be deemed amongst those titles. No, I think it's, I love the women's prize, but it is a matter of some frustration to me that so few crime novels are ever long-listed. Because I think that, I mean, and there have been some, absolutely,

but there are some brilliant female crime writers out there, and there are some brilliant crime novels, which encapsulate everything that you could want to see in the human condition, that is, you know, so well looked at in those novels there. But it's, and I mean, you know, the crime novels will, police procedurals will cover socioeconomic themes. They'll cover themes of race.

They'll cover themes of domestic violence, of trauma. They are a realistic commentary on day-to-day life of modern Britain, of, you know, globally as well, that there are superb novels, you know, that we get so many in translation. and it's also the highest selling. I mean, that might be the issue that they're just a bit too popular. But is that so bad, you know? Because actually, I found that the biggest compliment that I have been paid about any of my work was when I was told that Blood Orange had caused a divorce.

And that was because Blood Orange actually, you know, yes, it's a page turner. Yes, it has a grabby cover. It's got a grabby title. And it's got page, you know, it has got page turning ability. Though, I mean, is that such a bad thing? it has a plot. But the thing about it also, though, is that it does deal with themes of coercive control,

of gaslighting, of domestic violence. And through reading it, someone recognised that the relationship, that the marriage that they were in was actually one that was emotionally abusive. Wow. And that having that sort of light switched on meant that she realized she didn't need to stay in the marriage.

And it's, you know, I have talked about the post office and Mr. Bates, you know, quite extensively in the, the round of interviews with talking about witch trial, but the power of popular culture to affect change in policy and in popular opinion is so huge. You know, we had a lecture from the brilliant Scottish crime writer Denise Minor. She came into UA when I was doing my master's. Now, I mean, her work is brilliant. She is an absolutely brilliant writer. I say crime rights. She's a novelist, you know, just novelist, full stop. She had been going to do a,

jurisprudence defil and she had very strong views about the treatment of women in criminal justice and she thought well actually hang on a minute I could go and write a thesis and that would be read by three people or I could write a novel that actually reaches a wide readership and then people will actually think about the things I want them to think about you know my fourth novel has an afterward saying prison doesn't work you know we ought to be looking properly. at rehabilitation. We ought to be looking properly at the reform, particularly women in prison. You know, what is it? 60% to women in prison have been the victim of domestic violence. But if you do a polemic in The Guardian, it's not really going to change very much.

But if somebody, by reading a novel about characters that they empathise with, who they would not normally empathise with, it might mean that it changes their way of thinking. And it's that way of winning hearts and minds, you know, that's how you change people's minds, is by persuading them to see that the other is not as frightening. And if that is through something as popular as crime fiction, you know, it should be, that should be seen as a boon, surely. Popular culture is a place where we can have opinions. So much so. In music, in film, and TV.

Exactly. And do you think Apple Triad is a book that perhaps could change the mind of any naysayers out there? I think that anybody who likes reading should read it and that they should not have prejudice against it. Though I have to say, given it's sold so well, I think it's doing all right. I think it's doing just fine. It might have done just that. But I think it's also, it's an exceptionally good book. So, you know, everyone ought to read it anyway.

Well, on to another exceptionally good book. Your second bookshelfy book is The Lyman Chronicles, The Game of Kings by Dorothy Dennett. Oh, now they're six of them and they are. all absolute doorstoppers and they take you from, I mean, you go from Scotland to Malta, there's chess games with living people who become dead, there's, you know, twin swaps, they're absolutely, oh, they're huge, epic, epic. That was the word I was reaching for. They're like Game of Thrones, but better. Well, the game of kings, which is the book we brought. That's one of them, There's, yeah, because they, there's, I can't remember all the names of them because they're all, but it's, it's the like, Francis Crawford, you see him over the course of years. And I haven't read them for a while because I haven't, you know, I'm not being in a traumatic situation for some time. But, but they are my absolute sort of go-to for hiding in. And, I mean, and that was inspired by my dear friend Sarah Hughes, who sadly died five years ago, nearly. But she would read and reread.

and reread the Dorothy Dunnit books because there's something about Francis Crawford as a character that he is just hugely attractive. I mean, he is just totally fanciable. He's like the Rupert Campbell Black of the Knights Templar Age. Just fizzling off the page. And he's got, but he's actually a lot fisser

than Rupert Campbell Black because, you know, he can quote lots of poetry. He's not just there talking to his dogs. He's a, he's a polymath, he's a swordsman. He is, he's superb. And these books are, I just think they're classics. They're just brilliant. Well, Dennett's book transports us back to 1547 in a divided Scotland. After five years of imprisonment and exile, far from his homeland, Francis Crawford of Lyman,

scholar, soldier, rebel, nobleman and outlaw. I see what you're saying. Returns to Edinburgh. But for many he's not welcome. Lyman has wanted for treason and murder, and he is accompanied by a band of killers and ruffians who will only bring further violence and life. Is he back to ferment rebellion or has he returned to clear his name? I mean. And then it goes on and on and on. And he breaks hearts and he, oh, it's brilliant stuff. I mean, I appreciate I'm selling it particularly articulately, but they are. No, I want him. No, they, he's so fit. He's so fit. Basically, I'm basic. And that's what I want. It's just an extended love story. And there's a will

they won't they that lasts for about 2,000 pages and you can't say fairer than that would you say that this is an escape for you because your world is twisty psychological crime thrillers yes I mean this is historical fiction I love historical fiction

I love historical fiction because the I mean it for a start it's not something I could ever write I don't understand how people have the skill to bring 300 years ago to life because you know the best historical authors can do that, that you feel as if you really are living in those streets, that you are

walking through that smell, that it is a, you're not there sort of going, oh, you know, forsook and it doesn't feel as if it's a costume drama that you're actually completely immersed. I mean, Hillary Mantell is obviously the queen of that. But, you know, again, I mean, there's Laura Shepherd Robinson who's written a number of historical crime novels that are, you are there, you know, there's Louise Hare, all. is brilliant at creating that world. And so I think that that's, I love reading something that I couldn't have written, that there's no way that I could. It's like going to a restaurant, you know, in food that you could not cook yourself. It's because I'm not there trying to work

how it's done. I know that it's beyond me. And so I can simply relax into it and that all of the parts of my head, which as a writer will analyze what there is on the page, will actually as a reader just lose me completely. And because, you know, especially if you're mildly obsessed with the main character and, you know, whether they're going to get off with the person you want them to, you know, it's, that will keep me going. So yes, total escapism. I like that. I've never really thought about the connection between my need to order something on the menu that I couldn't cook myself and I need to read a book that I'm like, I definitely couldn't write this myself, which is most books. But also, the types of things I watch, if I'm watching

sport, love watching ice skating or gymnastics. I'm like, there's absolutely no way. This is it. When you watch someone, gymnastics is a perfect example where you just are in awe at someone else's ability. You let yourself be in awe. Yes. And it's amazing being able to feel that or, you know. And it's in and the best writing will, will inspire that feeling of just, you forget that it's writing. and you're just living it as you read it. The spirit of rebellion is really encapsulated in these books. You are born and raised in Edinburgh. Yes.

Do you think your Scottishness plays into a spirit of rebellion in you? I don't know if it's about being Scottish. I think I'm just quite bloody-minded. I've never been very good at doing what I'm told. And I think that that may have played into the disaster of being embarrassed at because it is a hierarchical kind of career that expects a certain standard of behaviour. And as soon as there's a standard of behaviour expected of me,

I tend to kick off in the other direction. I mean, as to whether that's Scottish, I think, I mean, there is a slight level of, I mean, I sort of don't really fit in any camp because I'm the Scot who doesn't have a Scottish accent, and so I'm not accepted as being Scottish. but yet when I'm in London, I'm not English either. You know, it's a sort of, so it's a curious situation.

And certainly when I was, when I went to bar school, that was, that was a very interesting because it was the first time I'd been with English people who thought that it was funny to be rude about Scots and to take the, that I was constantly called sweaty as in sweaty sock, jock which was it just was weird you know I mean it was just what I'm sorry what are you doing and then they would start banging on about the Barnet formula and I'd be like hang on

a minute is this anti-Scottishness I have never experienced this they need to get over that I mean it was quite they were dreadful people no no no they were terrible people and I think I was particularly unlucky with some of the people that I was friends with at that point but I think

that that possibly possibly has led me to having a sense of standing at the sidelines providing, you know, slightly barbed commentary. I mean, my second novel is, I call it Schoolgate Noir, but I think that I was quite bloody-minded through that time about what the expectations of behaviour were. And it's, you know, it's quite tough, the sort of competitive. And I brought some of that competition myself. I mean, I was definitely part of the problem. So, yeah, I mean, I guess you could maybe call it a Scottish chippiness. That, that could be more of a way of looking at it. But I wouldn't say that it's particularly because of where

I'm from as much as just intrinsic to myself. You said that this book had been thanks to the influence of your great friends. Yes. Could you tell us a little bit about Sarah Hughes? Sarah, oh no, Sarah was, Sarah was just brilliant. Sarah was born, well, she was two years younger, two weeks younger than me, so we always had our birthday sort of in tandem. I met her when I was 13 years old when she came to the same school that I was at, St. George's, in Edinburgh. And we stayed really close friends from that time onwards. And she was a brilliant journalist. And she had huge range from the really important work that she did with Kate Holt

in uncovering the abuse of UN workers and the DRC for which she was listed for an amnesty prize. But she also was totally all over popular culture in a way that was just brilliant. She started live blogging for the Guardian, the Line of Duty series, and the community that she created below the line in terms of people commenting on her commentary

and she would then comment on the comments on her commentary and it was absolutely, it was wonderful. And then she did Game of Thrones, as well. And it was, this was sort of as the internet was taking off in that direction of, you know, now we watch, it's sort of two-screen watching of things like traitors or, you know, where you're sort of watching what Twitter has to say as well as watching your television. Exactly. You've got to rise in two directions. But that was not happening when Sarah started the line. And also she, because I found line of duty really quite complex to follow.

And she would break it down and that we'd always go back and watch and read her recap so that could understand exactly what it happened. But, you know, and she just, and she read so prolifically and she reviewed books so brilliantly and she did book recommendations for the independent. And, you know, and she was my friend and I loved her. And she would, and I remember after her diagnosis, because she died from secondary breast cancer, but after her diagnosis, she borrowed my done it books because I had them and I'd read them. She'd borrowed them and she took them away. I did get them. back, but, you know, only by the skin of my teeth. And only I think because she was given there was a republishing of them more recently.

And I think she was sent to all of them. And so I did get them back from her. But she just constantly read. And those books were, that was her absolute go-to. So after she died, I read them all again. But, I mean, the problem is I read so many books that things, I sort of forget the detail. But I think we were saying this before the interview started. It doesn't matter.

It's the feeling of the book. and it's the way that the book transports you. And what I can tell you about that in the sixth book, when there is the final moment where things happen that you've been wanting to happen for a long, long time, and I'm not going to spoiler it, but it's such a moment of catharsis that the buildup of thousands of pages to get there

is so much worth it. But the journey itself will take you, as I say, across Europe, and it is totally transportative, And it's wonderful. So many times on this podcast, my guest tell me that there's books that they return to over and over again. But it's something very special that you've returned to a book because it's now imbued with your great friend. No, no, this will always be the book of Sarah as well as the book of, you know, and it's, yeah, they're wonderful books. We're going to take a short break now to hear from our friends at Find My Past.

sponsors of the 2026 Women's Prize for Nonfiction about their exciting new podcast. Well, it's been a lovely child for me to remember her and to understand her a bit more. And to, I think, write a quite ordinary person back into history. A Family History of is the brand new podcast that takes you inside the lives of everyday people at pivotal moments in Britain and Ireland's past. In the first three-part series, renowned historian Lucy Worsley uncovers how two world wars shaped her grandmother's life. Listen to a family history of wherever you get your podcast.

This episode of Bookshelfy is sponsored by Bayleys. Bayleys is proudly supporting the 26 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaking in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. The Bell Air Direct app includes crash assist, which detects an accident the moment it happens,

and even offers you emergency assistance at the tap of a button. Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Well, our journey continues onto your third book, Shelfare book now, which is the last of earth by Deepa Annapara. Oh, no, this is. I mean, she is a friend of mine.

So it's a slightly biased recommendation, but it is also not because sometimes I think one meets fellow writers. And their skill is such that all you can do is just sit back and go, you are just a genius. This is brilliant. And I met her back in 2010, I think. The course was, I think, 2009 to 2010. We were in a course together. Yeah, we did a course together at City University, now City St. George's, which is called the Novel Studio, which is a great course. You know, it's one evening a week.

And it's really, in London, it's very, very accessible, but also very, very helpful in terms of sort of getting one from, you know, the beginning of short story. further along the way to writing longer form. And Deepa's work stood out from the moment that I read. I just knew, you know, I just knew that great things would happen at some point. I didn't know when. And then when I went to UEA, and, you know, we lost touch after the course because, you know, it's difficult to keep in touch and everyone's lives are busy and I had young children. and anyway, I'd sort of still had at the back of my mind, I'd sort of always look to see if there was a book published by her that had appeared.

But then when I went to UEA, because I went to UEA in 2015 to do my MA, I then, I ran into her again and she was doing the prose fiction. I think she'd done the prose fiction, M.A. and she was working on her PhD there. And it was, no, it was fantastic to see her again. And then I found out that she had got representation, that she was signed up by the great, agent Peter Strauss who represents Sophie Hannah who's you know that if you get Peter Stras you know you're going to be in very good hands and and then Jim Patrol came out and that I that book blew me away it it was just it was just superb so the and Deepa is so unassuming and she didn't you know she didn't just say anything about would I like to read an

early copy or you know I knew there's this book about Tibetan monks you know it's not It's not really very, oh, no, because she never likes to sort of say how brilliant she is. She's very good at, but she is absolutely brilliant. Do you think she knows? I hope she's beginning to, I mean, I really hope that she is because she should. It's, it's that, I went to the launch, which was a couple of weeks ago. I think it was published two weeks ago. Very, very, very recent.

And the speech by her editor, it's been listed by new. humorous, very highly, now this is literature, this is literature, but I think I've said in my blurb that it has a page turning ability. It really does read a bit like a thriller. You want to know what happens. You want to know if people are going to survive and how they're going to survive and how it's going to turn out. And the sense of place that she evokes with the forbidden kingdom, with Tibet back in the late 19th century, is, It's extraordinary. You can sort of feel the breathlessness of it.

You can feel the smell of it. You know, what, you can smell the smell of it. You know, she just, and also in terms of, you know, if we're going to talk about decolonization, if we're going to talk about aspects of empire, the ugly side of it that, of course, has to be explored. I mean, this book does it, but in a way that just flips the whole thing on its head

about map making and boundary. But without hitting you round the head, you just read it and you think, my God, basically. It's just brilliant. Well, the last of Earth is a stunning historical novel about two outsiders who venture into the forbidden kingdom of Tibet, both driven by a motive, they are desperate to keep a secret. Set in 1869 when the mountainous territories closed to foreigners, an infuriating obstacle. In response, Britain begins training. Indians permitted to cross borders that white men may not to undertake illicit perilous expeditions within Tibet.

Now this is an unforgettable story about the obsessions of the colonial enterprise, like you just said, and the ways we endeavor to leave a mark on the world from a women's prize, long-listed author, of course, long-listed, for Jun Patrol on the Purple Line. When you go about capturing a sense of place and immersing your reader fully within it, You described the way that Deepa does this exquisitely. Where do you start? How do you do that? I mean, I do it by places I actually know really well.

So which one could say is a failure of imagination. But really, unless I've lived it, I find it very hard to describe it properly. I'm aware that there's an author of my acquaintance who says, you know, just set a book in America and then it will sell in America. And I mean, I can see the logic there completely, but I would find it very hard to inhabit that space on the page properly because it, unless I have actually, I mean, Edinburgh features hugely as a character in which trial, it's not just the setting, it's pivotal to the whole.

The whole book. And I grew up in Edinburgh, you know, it's the place I still call home, along with London. And so that is how I do it, is by knowing it very, very intimately. Again, this is why I have such respect for people who are able to write places that, you know, they have only just visited briefly or even that they can only visit in the imagination of and research, of historical research. A couple of names have come up so far in our chat. Your friend Sarah, deeper. I'm getting a real sense of community between yourself and other writers and other readers actually. As someone who came to writing after having done a whole other career at this stage, putting yourself through a course. How have you built a community of readers and writers around you? And how important has that been? It's extremely important and I have built it slowly and incrementally over the years.

When I started 2009, I didn't know any writers actually other than a friend of mine who had, he sparked the whole thing off in 2005, my friend Michael Hughes, whom I was at college with him. and he messaged to say that he had got a place on a writing, a creative writing, MA, I think it was Royal Holloway. Anyway, I was really bothered by this. I was really upset and angry. And of course, I was very pleased for him, but it really, really set off an emotional reaction. And it was because I realised it was what I wanted to do.

But the thing is, I had no idea. And I think that, you know, we can be very critical of the internet. We can be very critical of social media. But the amazing thing about it, though, is the huge resource of information it is for people who might want to know how to become writers, who might want to know how to get into the publishing industry, you know, to take on different kinds of jobs in that area. I didn't know any writers and I didn't know how you started and I didn't know what to do. And for a long time, I sort of played with trying to write and I didn't even know where to put inverted commas. on the page, which is ridiculous. You know, I'd done a degree in English literature, but there was something about it that I just couldn't translate. And so at the very beginning, when I did get

started, knowing no one, walking in the first class that I did, and I had to do a class because I didn't know how to teach myself, I didn't know what to do. And so I sat down and we had to introduce ourselves around a table and I was terrified but through that course I made some friends through the next course and I did a lot of courses you know I was lucky that I was able to afford it and it was you know it was a combination of learning you know every time I was developing my craft but each time also I was giving myself some external accountability that it created deadlines but the other thing was that it was building that community because even though of course we all write alone at the same time being able to talk about writing to people is something I love doing you know and I love talking about

and I always had people I could talk about books too you know I talked about books with Sarah so much but writing is a very specific and we're all I'm odd you know I'm odd and I'm odd and I think other authors are also quite you know we're all quite odd because if you live in your imagination and you're actually just making stuff up all the time. I think it puts you in a slightly weird scenario. And it's good to be able to talk to other people who understand that. And, you know, through each process of the way, it's, you know, how to write. It's then how do I get an agent? How do I get published? What do I do about getting my book out there? How do I reach readers? You know, in terms of building a community of readers, well, that's something that again has happened slowly,

incrementally and is amazing, you know, and that when people contact me, when, you know, I see on social media on Instagram that people, you know, I recognize names and they're book bloggers that I met back in 2018 and, you know, who's still reading my work and still shouting about it. It's amazing and it is incredibly important to me. Listen, I speak to a lot of writers on this podcast and I can confirm, oh, and I love it. That's why I do it. On the subject of harnessing, your voice and honing your craft and your creativity, your fourth bookshelfy book is big magic. Creative living, Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert, who shares her wisdom and unique understanding of creativity, shattering the perceptions of mystery and suffering that surround the process, and showing us all just how easy it can be. By sharing stories from her own life, as well as those are from her friends and the people that have inspired her, she challenges us to embrace our curiosity, tackle what we most love and face down what we most fear.

And this is a book that you told us you found hugely helpful when it comes to unlocking your creativity, your writing. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Do you know, it's funny because when you read the blurb of it, I'm like, that's not how I remember it at all, isn't it? Because again, the feeling it just left me with was that there is a magic to it, that you do have to simply open your mind to, instead of worrying about is an overthinking it, that it was just sitting down and getting on with it in a way

that that was as pressure-free as possible and that the more weight one put on thinking about will this sell, is this going to appeal to market? You know, all of those external considerations that you can have as a contracted or out-of-contract writer are things that actually destroy the creative spark, that you have to take all kind of mercantile considerations out, which, you know, is all very well to say, isn't it? It's a kind of, so you have to, you know, oh no, what's a mortgage. But you have to, it's, it's, but I did like the idea of it is being like this little flame that needs to be sort of nourished and to be kept away from any cold winds. And it's hard to keep it away from cold.

And again, maybe this is not what the book says at all. But it says different things to different people. But what it said to me was that it is. something quite special and weirdly magic in its own way and that there's a whole bit about which probably will make me I just love the woo bit where she's saying that there's ideas in the zeitgeist and that you can have an idea and someone else can have exactly the same idea at the same time and nobody has shared notes nobody's plagiarizing anyone it's just that you sort of end up there are themes I think that tend to emerge I mean I've been really

struck by the fact that there's the book that's published today by Francis Spufford called Nonsuch, which is time-travelling, Second World War, Blitz, London. And I have also just read the new thriller by Ellery Lloyd, and that's a book that's going to be released later in the year, which is also time travel, Blitz, London. And I'm sure they're going to be very, very different books. You know, one is a, one is a literary thriller, one is, it's spufford's a literary author. But it's just, it's just strange how you end up with books emerging on certain themes at certain times. And, and I think it's because we have a kind of collective preoccupation, don't meet with, with, with ideas that we can see what's happening on a global basis and then

we sort of tap into that in one direction and another. But, but the first, fact Elizabeth Gilbert talks about this is magic. I just really quite like that. And I found the book to be, I think I was feeling quite blocked when I read it and it was basically, it left me thinking I'm overthinking this. I just need to get on with it. And not in a sort of pull your socks up, but just it's not actually as frightening as all that. It's okay. You can do this. But as I say, it's probably when I, yeah, the blur, maybe it's something completely different in which case I apologize but I do say to anyone who is having difficulty with with working with writing go and read this and you'll feel better and it made me feel better that's all I can say described me the

feeling of finding your big magic oh when it's in flow there is no better feeling when when the pages are coming right there's a chapter in blood orange which comes quite late in the book and it's set in Brighton. It's about 5,000 words long, which is unusually long for me for a chapter. And I wrote it over two days, and it was a weekend. We went away to the coast and my children were little, and I said, could you just leave me alone? You know, I'll come down, we'll go and get food. I've just got to get this done. And I knew it was right, and it's the one piece of work I've ever done that had maybe two edits, too, like, just twitching with punctuation. No one's ever needed to change it. And I knew it was right.

And that, I mean, I still remember how it felt when I was writing it. And it was properly in flow. There's that amazing, is it the Pixar film, soul music that that that bit, well, and that, I mean, I've got the hairs are going off my scalp now when I think about flow. It's your sort of flow state. And the flow state is the best state that there is, that sort of bit. You can't, you can't make it happen. It just, it happens of its own accord.

and it's when it all comes together. And I mean, you know, in editing, sometimes, I mean, with which trial I got 25 pages of notes, which was, you know, kind of normal because I get very thoroughly edited and I appreciate it greatly. But, you know, when I first read the notes, I just want to cry. You know, I want to cry and say, no, you're all wrong. It's a work of genius. It doesn't need it. And then, of course, you know, within an hour or so, I have myself sorted and I'm ready to go and think about it.

But there's always a point where I just think this is hopeless. I can never fix this. It's just never, ever going to work. It's going to be nothing I can do about this. And that's when I'm almost ready to give up. And then when I'm the middle of doing something else, because I think you have to be doing something mindlessly mindful, like washing up.

You're concentrating, but not so much that you can't think at the same time. You know, it's not like doing a crossword because I think too much of your brain would be occupied. But then the solution comes. And when the solution comes, it's... That moment. Oh, my God, it's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. I love it.

This is why I do it just for, you know, that you can have sort of 99% of the time. It's like, oh, my God, I don't know how I'm going to get. How am I going to solve this problem? You know, how do I get through the middle of this? Oh, there's still 45,000 words to go. It's terrible. But then when you have these sort of occasional glimpses of joy and it's worth it. It's so worth that.

That big magic. Yes, it is worth. It is magical. Well, Harriet, your fifth and final vote-shelfy book today is Luckin Booth by Jenny Fagan. Another compelling Scottish novel set in Edinburgh. In 1910, Jessie, the devil's daughter, arrives on the doorstep of an imposing tenement building. She's been sent by her father to bear a child for a wealthy couple. But when things go wrong, she places a curse on the building and all who live there.

and it lasts a century. Caught in the Crossfire are the residents of 10 Luckenbooth Close, and they all have their own stories to tell. This is, in your words, beautiful and brutal. How did you come across this book, and what is it about Fagan's writing that makes it so profoundly affecting a reading experience? I mean, she's a poet as a starting point,

So her use of language is just superb. I was introduced to Luckenbooth, actually by Sarah. It was the last big review that she wrote before she died. And I read the book immediately and then went back and read Fagan's poetry. And in fact, there is a memoir called Ootland that was published last year. Yes, this was actually longlisted for the women's plays. for non-fiction, 2025. It's extraordinary.

It is extraordinary as a piece of work that, well, Jenny Fagan's story is itself brutal. And what she has made from it is very beautiful. I mean, I think everyone should read Ootland. Everyone should read Oetland. But if you want a perhaps more sort of fictional escape from what can be a very sad and brutal story, I think that Luckenbooth is just, and you visit this, you visit this tenement every decade from 1910 onwards.

And what she's really playing with is the thing that I was trying to reach for in which trial with Edinburgh. That Edinburgh is, you know, it's fur coat, no knickers. It's both the grade one listed world heritage, you know, tourist site, amazing architecture, everything. lovely but underneath is this this sort of underbelly of you know the AIDS capital of Europe in the 80s drugs deaths from overdoses are you know sort of Scotland wide far higher than the rest of the UK that you know Edinburgh has got this this amazing centre but yet the outskirts the places of great deprivation and poverty and and I feel that Luckenbooth does that but also there's a lot of kind of witchy stuff and satanic stuff

And it's just a really cool book. And it's kind of mad, but really beautiful. The way it's written is incredible. She's just, and her poetry is wonderful as well. She manages to sort of span nine decades for a start in this Edinburgh tenement block. She paints this scene of social deprivation over generations, but also incorporates all these different elements. There's horror in there.

there's the supernatural. Are you often drawn to fiction that is quite experimental in its style? I like to read it, yes. If it's accessible, I mean, I'm not much given to, if it's for the sake of it, I mean, I don't think I would read something. I think that there was a book that was part of the Willipian school where it had excluded the letter E. And I just can't be bothered.

It can be able to turn off from the outset, aren't it? Because that's really contrived. That's really, really contrived. But I think that playing with form and looking at matter fiction are, I mean, of course, it's fun because it should be fun. Language is fun. And what you can do with, you know, there's what you can do with the alphabet is like, you know, well, it's like music. You know, there's only eight notes in the octave. And yet.

And yet, it's Beethoven, et cetera. There's only 26 letters in the alphabet. You're going to tell me the 25 and my brain's got, no, the 26 letters in the alphabet. 26. But now I just had to think, you know, I've not really talked about it that often. I know, because I was about it. And I thought, hang on a minute. Is that right?

No, 26 letters in the alphabet. And look at what people can do. You know, and look at the worlds that it's just black and white on a page. But yet you can be taken everywhere. It's just wonderful. It's a really beautiful way of thinking about it. And I hadn't considered how many letters there were in the Alps. alphabet for ages, not since school, I don't think. And you're right, look at the journeys

we get to go on. Yes, exactly. With all these words. You've described Fagan as a poet and seer. Yeah. She pushes the boundaries of language using just those 26 letters. Yeah, it's extraordinary. Why is she so spellbinding and so singular? I think, well, she thinks she's a witch. Does that? I just think she's just a genius. Basically, there are people who have a genius use of language and she's someone who simply has that and and as to why maybe she would be

able to say but I think some people just have that magic and she does yeah you said that you always recommend this book if someone is unfamiliar with Jenny Fagan is Luckinbeth a good place to start I think it's a good place to start

alongside Oatlin that's what I would say prepare for magic Yes. Well, my final question to you is, Harriet, if you had to put one book from the five that you've brought today, and there was magic throughout your list in all different ways, shapes and forms. Which would it be and why? Oh, that's, that's mean. I think what I'm going to say is big magic, not necessarily because it's the best of them, but because it's the one that has the most. practical application for me as a writer because as I say it's something that I find very unblocking when I do feel that I've got stuck and so I think that just to return to think you know that's try and recapture some magic I promise I'm not that woo but maybe I am

maybe I just need to accept this this slightly more woo side of myself and lean in I did actually want to ask me because you'd said in your notes that you sort of resisted eat prey love I might have to go and read it. Maybe I should. Maybe I should. No, that's just me being bloody minded because everybody, I said I was bloody minded to start with. But no, I mean, I feel that, I think, I feel that big magic is, is probably, though I should, I mean, can I just not have all of them, please? You can have all of them? Can I have all of them? Thank you. I appreciate that very much. And thank you for your time today.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I'm Vic Hope and that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize, supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books that we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org shelf, where every purchase supports independent bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust,

a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing. Now remember to hit the follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you liked this one, then leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. I'll see you next time.