Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S9 Ep5: Bookshelfie: Kelly Cates

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

Award-winning football presenter and broadcaster Kelly Cates talks about finding new opportunities in midlife, her love for the way Marian Keyes captures female conversation and why deep down she is a terrible gossip. Kelly has been a familiar and much-loved face in sports broadcasting for over 27 years, covering everything from the Premier League to the World Cup and the Olympics. Known for her warmth, wit and sharp insight, she has become one of the most respected voices in football. A lifelong Liverpool fan, Kelly grew up in Southport as the daughter of football legend Kenny Dalglish, before going on to study Maths at the University of Glasgow. Since 2025, she has co-hosted Match of the Day alongside Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman, and she continues to balance an incredibly busy career with life in London, where she lives with her two daughters.Kelly’s  book choices are:** Anne of Green Gables by L. M. Montgomery** Frederica by Georgette Heyer** Heartburn by Nora Ephron** The List by Yomi Adegoke** Rachel’s Holiday by Marian KeyesYou can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

Coming up on bookshelfy. It's really lovely to have a new opportunity when you're old enough to appreciate it. I think when you're young and opportunities come to you, you're excited, but you don't appreciate what is taken to get there because you haven't got the life experience to know that. And that sort of old adage of those who can't do teach. I was like those who can't do present. That was the, you know, I was never particularly sporty. When I was looking back at the books I'd chosen,

it's quite exposing because you start to realise what's important to you. Or I started to realise what was important to me. And I was thinking that all those kind of human interactions and all that kind of depth of emotion and that's the kind of stuff that I like to read about and that's the stuff that I think is important in my life. I like that you can go and dig into the real lives of it as well because at heart I'm a terrible gossip.

And I love that you. can go and look at them and go, oh my God, that's who this person is. Hello, I'm Vic Hope and this is Bookshelfy, the podcast from the Women's Prize that asks women, with lives as inspiring as any fiction, to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Now, before we begin, remember to subscribe or follow so you never miss an episode with thanks to our sponsor, Bayleys. Today, I'm joined by award-winning football presenter and broadcaster Kelly Kate's. Kelly's been a familiar and much-loved face in sports broadcasting for over 27 years,

covering everything from the Premier League to the World Cup and the Olympics. Known for her warmth, wit and sharp insight, she's become one of the most respected voices in football. A lifelong Liverpool fan, I'm actually Newcastle, but my partner and my husband is Liverpool, so I'm sort of adopted. Kelly grew up in Southport as the daughter of football legend Kenny Douglas, before going on to study maths at the University of Glasgow. Since 2025, she's co-hosted Match of the Day alongside Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman,

and she continues to balance an incredibly busy career with life in London, where she lives with her two daughters. Kelly, welcome. It's such a pleasure to have you. Hello, it's so lovely to be here. So lovely to be talking about something that isn't football. Yeah, I was going to say, I watch Match of the Day. I watch you on Sky as well. And I can't believe we're sitting here talking about books. I know. I'm happy about it. And it is great because it's, my job is lots of people's hobby. So it's nice to talk about something that I'm interested in outside of my job, because I don't normally get to do that. And books are a big interest of yours. Yeah, I've always been a huge reader from being really, really tiny. I kind of, my mom taught me to

read really early, and I just, since then, just absolutely loved it and grew up on all the classics and all the kind of, all the Inoblighton series, and I just loved it. I always had a book in my And I was always impossible to kind of distract from that. You know, you could talk to me and I wouldn't hear. Just was completely wrapped up in my own world. I loved it. One of those kids who is so excited to get home to get back into the book that you were reading that night. And you can't wait to get to the end, but then you do and you're gutted because it's over.

I know the feeling so well. Is it that escape for you still reading or is it a grounding? Yeah. No, it's definitely an escape. And I think even more so recent, or really. increasingly so because I think, you know, when I was trying to think about the books that were important to me, I was thinking, well, I could, you know, put some quite sort of thoughtful, dark books in there. And I was like, it's not what I read anymore. It's not why I read. I read to

kind of, um, to unwind and to relax and to sort of distract myself rather than to put myself in a, in a more difficult situation. And I think I, I get so wrapped up in it that I don't want to spend time in in those places anymore. So I think now I read just purely for pleasure. And I just love it. It's really important to me. I can't sleep without reading. I mostly just take my Kindle everywhere because it's easier. It's lighter. Yeah, exactly. And I can, and then I, and I have books. The books that I read most are not the books that I love the most, to be honest. They're the books that I can just dip into. I can open them at any page and I'm just straight in there and I'll be asleep within a few pages but then every now and again there are books that I just live in and I love it it depends

where you're at in your life it depends what you need yeah I feel exactly the same I'm exceptionally tired at the moment yeah of course yeah I have an eight month old and where in the past I wanted really cerebral books that really made me think that really made me look at the world or myself differently I don't have the capacity for that right now not right now I will again but not right now and that light escape is so, so needed. Yeah, and I found that having children changed the way that I wanted to read as well. I struggled with anything, books, films, TV series where there were children in danger or being badly treated. And then you suddenly realize that's actually quite a lot of books. And you've kind of, you've taken a lot of them off the table. But I just found

them unbearable for a while and then I can I can just about dip into them now and my girls are 14 and 17. It's taken me a long time to get back to being able to read that kind of thing and I don't read them the same way anymore and then I think lockdown again changed how I read books. I just had no capacity for anything difficult at all and so even even then it's just kind of got lighter and lighter. And I can read, I can read better books now, but I kind of, yeah, those kind of escapeist novels were the ones I wanted to read. When you literally can't leave your four worlds, you want to escape to some other worlds. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, talking of the right time. Last year you wrote a piece in British Vogue about turning 50, about landing a job presenting

football's most iconic program as an instance of perfect timing. How does age and experience factor into such a life-changing moment and a professional milestone? I think it's really lovely to have a new opportunity when you're old enough to appreciate it. I think when you're young and opportunities come to you, you're excited, but you don't appreciate what is taken to get there because you haven't got the life experience to know that. And that's a great feeling as well. But there is something really special about feeling that you've worked towards something and that, you know, as I was sort of thinking about life in and about work, certainly,

not in terms of endgame, but getting to that stage and starting to think, how is this going to work as it kind of comes to a close, not in the near future, but eventually. And then suddenly you get a new opportunity in the middle of all of that. And it's come at a time where, you know, my daughters are not quite ready to leave home, but getting there and they're coming to a new stage of their lives. So it just feels like all those doors are opening for us all at the same time, which is really lovely. I love that. Doors opening for you all at your different ages, your different stages of life.

Has much of the day been everything you expected it to be? Yeah, it's been great. And it's really lovely to share it with Gabby and Mark because I just, well, they're both friends. And I also just respect them and think they're great broadcasters. And so to be part of that little team is really, really lovely as well. And the people that I work with are great and I just go into work and I just love it. I sit and watch football and sit with experts next to me and say, oh, what did you think about this? And how did you see that?

And why do you think that's just really lovely? I think so many of us when we saw that news, we were like, perfect. Yes, that's what it should be. Well, I always look at sports broadcasters and think you are the busiest of anyone. It is just so constant. but I really appreciate that you've made time to delve into the books that mean the most to you, that you've loved the most. So let's look at your book-shelfy books, the first of which.

I have to admit, I did mean to read them all back. You don't have to have them really fresh in my mind. But I have dipped into them all to a certain different extent. It's funny though, isn't it? Because so often you're like, oh, I love this book. Couldn't tell you what happens in it. But I just know I like it. And that's okay.

And also we don't want spoilers. So it's not about the plot. I'll give you a little blurb and then we can chat. Your first book, Shelfy book, is Anna Green Gables by L.M. Montgomery. Published in 1908 by Canadian author Ellen Montgomery. Anna Green Gables is a classic of children's literature set in the late 19th century. The story follows 11-year-old orphan Anne Shirley, sent by mistake to live with two middle-aged siblings. Marilla and Matthew Cuthbert are expecting a strong boy to help them plow through the work on the farm.

To their surprise, however, a spindly, red-haired little girl knocks on their day. door instead. But it's not long before Anne charms her way into the cup of its hearts with her big imagination and never-ending chatter. Now, you mentioned that this was a book and a series, in fact, that had a very formative influence on you when you were quite young. What do you remember about discovering it? So it was my auntie, my mum's auntie, actually, who bought me this book and she'd lived in Canada. And so I think she had that kind of Prince Edward Island connection and and sort of thought about, you know, it sort of reminded her, the scenery reminded her of her time in Canada. And she gave me this book and I just loved her.

I just thought Anne was like, she was just the right side of naughty. She was always getting into scrapes and, you know, dyeing her hair green because she bought something off a daughter-to-door salesman or kind of just. And she was always getting thrown out of school but for things that weren't really her fault and getting into trouble and breaking slates over a boy's head. And then it was just who it turns out that, you know, she ended up falling in love with because that's the nature of that kind of novel and all that later in the series. And I just, I just loved it. And I just loved that world. I loved her personality.

I loved that she had this great friend, Diana, who was her bosom buddy. And I used to think that was really funny. Just the whole phrase of it. But I just, I just loved it. And then, and I would go down when I was only, I'd probably be a. about nine or ten and I would go down to our little local library and they sourced even the really hard to find books for me I remember late on and so I read the whole series it goes right down into her family into her children into the next generations and tells their stories and I just

yeah I just loved it down to rilla who was named after marilla and kind of just had that yeah I just loved it paint the picture for me what was little nine-year-old Kelly kate's like I just Like I said, I was very bookish and I just would kind of immerse myself. I remember getting the book and I remember, I still have the copy. There's a sort of hardback of the first two, Anne of Green Gables and Anne of Avenly. And I remember the feel of them. I remember turning the pages. I remember just being desperate like you said earlier to get back into that world.

And I would go around and I would sit with family wherever I was and I would have this book and nobody could talk to me. Nobody could get through to me because I was just absolutely immersed in it. I just loved it. Was there any hint, inkling of what your future might hold at that point? No, I was not. That sort of old adage of those who can't do teach. It's the kind of, I was like those who can't do present. That was the, you know, I was never particularly sporty.

I was like, no, well, you're particularly accomplished. But I kind of, I was never sported. I played sport at school, but never to any sort of great level. And I did that, you know, that classic teenage thing of reaching an age where they said, we need you to come early in the morning and at the weekend and come and do this. And I was like, I don't think I want to go and do that. I'm not involved enough and I'm not good enough to be able to do it. I did some kind of early morning swimming and weekend netball matches and things for a little while.

But I was like, this is not for me. You didn't feel pressure to do sports? No, it wasn't, it wasn't something that I felt that was kind of expecting. of me at all. And I didn't want to. That wasn't kind of a world that I wanted for myself. So yeah, I was all kind of focused on school and that side of things. So as someone who was focused on school, who was bookish, who was clutching a novel, did you identify at all with Anne herself? That's exactly it. She was a girl whose imagination just ran riot and she kind of lived in her head the whole time. And she had this kind of idea of the world that she'd mainly

gleaned through reading and she didn't really well when they made the TV series of it they sort of hinted at this much darker background but I don't think I saw that in her and definitely not in my early readings of it and probably not late on but now I gave it to my girls to read

when they were younger and so I read it at the same time as them because I used to like to do that I used to like to go back to those books that I handed over to them and relive them so I could talk to them properly about it. And then having watched the TV series that they made of it, I was like, the most recent one, because they made an older one. It was much more classic Anne and all kind of, you know, red pig tails and quite, you know, polyana-ish and very sweet. But the darker one, I thought, my God, yeah, you can see that there was this much darker childhood that was behind her.

She was an orphan. And I think she'd looked after children and they hinted it, you know, the fact that this was a really sort of horrible experience for her. That is not in the books. But I quite like that they've given it this new depth, I think. But that wasn't what my experience of it was. Well, not particularly if you're reading it at eight or nine. Yeah, yeah. Because that's perhaps just not your view of the world at all.

You don't recognize. And you don't know about those things. So you don't read into it. But yeah, I like that it had as an adult going back to it. I like that it had this other layer to it. This episode of Bookshelfy is sponsored. by Bayleys. Bayleys is proudly supporting the 2026 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books

into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaking in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite Bayleys recipes. Well, we do move forward to a book that you enjoy a Sunday reading. Yeah, as an adult now. Your second book-shelphie book is Frederica by Georgette Heer. This is a classic Regency romance by the author credited with the invention of the genre. A rich and handsome bachelor, Vernon Dauntry, the Marquise of Alvestoke, sees no reason to put himself out for anyone. When a distant connection asks for help, though, he's quickly plunged into one drama after another by the

disorderly Maryville family. Surprisingly, he finds himself far from bored, especially when he encounters their strong-minded daughter, Frederica. Now, you described this as Sunday reading. What does a typical Sunday look like in your household? So it's Sunday reading as a sort of metaphor for Sundays rather than, like a Sunday feeling rather than actual Sundays. Because my Sundays are often work-based.

work-based. And then, but it is that real cozy, cup of tea, sort of on the sofa, curled up, just escapism, really lovely book

that is just purely about romance. There's very little jeopardy in it. But the thing that I love about, about her writing is, it is immaculately researched. So when they, when historians have gone through and looked at her writing,

it is so accurate and even things like the slang that they use in the books that the guys will use is perfect and it's precise to the period so even down to the two or three years or even down to the months that the books might have been set in that is how they dressed it's how they talked it's what they ate it's you know all the detail of it is is perfect and it just although you don't notice that when you're reading I think it's one of those things that if it's not right it would probably jar a little bit and it would just keep bringing you out of the, out of the situation. And so I really, that's one of the things that I, it's not something that I noticeably love about it, but it's something that I think just helps it to run smoothly in my head. And it is always what really separates the really brilliant piece of historical fiction from the rest. I mean, Georgette Heyer, she wrote over 50 historical novels. That meticulous research is so impressive and makes for these brilliant boots.

And some of them are murder mysteries, which is quite strange. And kind of I tried to read one of them. And I was like, no, it's not what I want from. It's not what I want from her. I want them elsewhere. But all of her sort of regency romantic, and there are, like you said, dozens of them are just fantastic. And that she's very witty in a quite low key way. And it's got that really lovely dialogue in it between the couples where you, it's, there's a sharpness to it that is.

that is really lovely to hear and there's an intelligence to it that isn't just like, oh, you are, you know, it's not like just wafting a fan and kind of going, oh my gosh, I was blushing. It's not that. There's a, they always have these really interesting conversations and they talk about important things. As you say, you know, she's raising a family really in this one. And the reason they go to seek him out is because she's looking for her husband for her sister, Caris. And they are, because she's the most beautiful one. And they're trying to kind of put her. out into the marriage market to save the family. And so the reason that she bonds with, the reason that she bonds with the character is because she's talking to him about the difficulties of running a family and he's sort of sharing his knowledge of running his estate with her. And there's a, it's not superficial. It's, there's a sort of depth to it.

It feels at the moment like there was a real proliferation, not just in literature, but also in television and film of regency. Yeah, Bridgeton. Yeah, Bridgeton. everyone loves it. Why do you think we're kind of obsessed with visiting this period? It's interesting because I've watched the Bridgetons and then, but because I'm a Georgia-Hare obsessive,

it's probably a bit strong, but because I love her books, I watch that and I'm thinking that that's not right. That's not how they would have done it. The accuracy is not always there, I guess as well. And I do find it really jarring. Bearing my whole kind of historical knowledge of it is just based on their novels. It's a bit much of me to kind of start being a bit judgy.

But yeah, it's, I don't know. I think there is something, look, it's revisiting it through rose tinted glasses. It's not saying that the world was a great place then at all. But I think there is something quite simple that kind of boils down the nature of it to what was quite transactional at the time. But there was still this human element and there was still this ability to, you know, fall in love with the person that you married. But the fact that it happened at a time when most marriages were certainly, let's face it, we're not interested in anything below the kind of ton level.

We're going into it right at the very top of society. I think it was a different experience for other people. And it's silly to pretend that it's not that. But it is, you know, at time when these people were expected to have these very business-like marriages that love existed through of that. And I think there's this, not despite all the odds, because they're not exactly facing hardships, but that human emotions still existed in a very transactional sense, in a very transactional world. I feel like that's the crux of hope in so many different echelons and forums and medians is that love exists in spite of dot, dot, dot, whatever it might be. Yeah. And that comfort is probably derived from that that you find in this, but you,

Is this something you read over and over again? Yeah. And I think as well, it's when I was sort of looking back at the books I'd chosen, it's quite exposing because you start to realize what's important to you. Yeah. And or I started to realize what was important to me. And I was thinking all those kind of human interactions and all that kind of depth of emotion and that's the kind of stuff that I like to read about.

And that's the stuff that I think is important in my life. Those kind of deep emotional connections. They're the things that, that are that's what life is made of really quite often when we record these podcasts my guests come in and we chat book after book after book and they start to have a realisation you see the cogs turning they're going oh my god that's me that's what i am yeah that's what's important to me i'm just realizing in fact one guest who that was very much the case for was joanne mcnally who chose some very dark books and she was like i'm a comedian but what is going on here sorry and she chose this next book your third book

shelfy book, which is Hartburn by Nora Ephron. Seven months into... I saw that and I thought, can I not pick it? You can someone... But I feel like it's such a great book. Can you imagine if we were vetoing books based on other people liking them? It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be fair.

You absolutely can have this one. Seven months into her pregnancy, Rachel discovers that her husband is in love with another woman. The fact that this woman has, and I quote, a neck as long as an arm and a nose as long as a thumb, is no consolation. Food, however, sometimes is, since Rachel is a cookery writer. And between trying to win Mark back and wishing him dead, she offers us some of her favourite recipes. Nora Ephron's iconic heartburn is a rollercoaster of love, betrayal, loss, and most satisfyingly, revenge.

What made you choose this one? I just think it is so sharp and so funny. and she uses that to write about her pain in such a relatable way, I think. I think that there is this level on which she's talking that if you took it at surface value, you'd think, oh, she's fine, she's coping with it, she's moved on. But she writes about the pain underneath that so brilliantly. and I think she sort of talks about them it becomes more painful as it goes on

but even traumatic events like when you know the guy goes into the therapy group with the gun and kind of starts talking starts kind of trying to rob her of a I think it's a ring she hides she slips into her bag and he sort of looks at her and she's seen him on the subway and it's just all these kind of

all these kind of parts of her life that overlap but she writes about this really dark, dangerous thing that's happened to her on what ostensibly is a superficial level, but the sharpness of it cuts right to the core of it. So almost the shallowness shows you the depth, if that makes sense. The more flippant she is about something, the more it hurts her and the less willing she is to kind of go to those places. I feel like we can relate.

I remember going for a breakup literally in the pub that we were breaking up in once and laughing and he said, why are you laughing? I was like, well, because otherwise I'll cry. What else do you want me to do here? Her writing on love, on friendship, on heartbreak, they've been such cultural touchstones. Heartburn was published over 40 years ago. So this year, 2026, is the 20th anniversary

of her essay collection. I feel bad about my neck. Why does it continue to resonate her writing? Because I don't think the essence of being a woman has changed ever. I think that's why it resonates. And I think she writes about something that is universal, which is heartbreak, but she does it in a way that is different from anyone else. I don't think anyone else has written about the sort of human condition in the way that she does.

I think you see it in her films. I think so there are moments in Heartburn that you can see in when Harry met Sally or in other Nora Ephron movies. And she writes about it so brilliantly. I think the other thing that's great about it, is that they are real people. And she wrote a preface to it. I think it was 2004 preface.

She wrote to the book where she basically admitted to all of it. I think having been quite vague, she was like this. And the fact that the husband in the book is actually one of the Watergate journalists. And it was genuinely, you know, a real pillar of society and was this kind of huge moral force who was cheating on his seven months pregnant wife. And then, you know, the woman that he's cheating on her with is the wife of a diplomat who went on to have an extraordinary career of her own and is a really interesting person in her own right. Yeah, I like that you can go and dig into the real lives of it as well because at heart I'm a terrible gossip. And I love that you can go and look at them and go, oh my God, that's who this person is. And you can get this real life version of this fictionalized.

And it is very loosely fictionalized. I know. She's not all makes it so juicy. She's not even, yeah. It's just, it's perfect. And it also gives her just enough leeway to kind of put her own spin on it. And apparently he was furious and she was like, how has he come out of this with the moral high ground when he's the one who cheated on his seven months pregnant wife?

It's giving Western girl. Yeah, yeah, it's exactly that. We've seen this before. It's like, yes, there's nothing new in the world. Lily Allen's going through it now. It's like, Nora Ephron's already been there. Yeah. And she has been, is, was always will be a cultural phenomenon.

Yeah. I mean, she's responsible for so many of our favorite rom-coms when Harry Met Sally, sleepless in Seattle, you've got male. Do you return to these films? And as a mother of daughters, are you introducing them to them? Well, yes, when Harry Met Sally is one of my all-time favorite movies, but obviously it has the orgasm scene in it. Famously has the orgasm scene in it.

But I don't think that's particularly integral to the plot. So I watched it with my eldest daughter. And I was like, look, it has this scene in it. I don't think we're going to be comfortable watching this with each other. I know that you'd be fine watching it on your own and I'm fine watching it on my own, but I don't think we should watch it together. So we fast forwarded it. And I was like, but you need to see the ending.

You need to see the kind of killer line at the end of it. And she's like, right, okay, okay. So we fast forward it and we watched the line and we watched the rest of it. And at the end, she was just in floods of tears. And she's like, this is just great. I love this so much. And I think that's the sort of, this sort of universal appeal of Nora Ephron and of that movie. I do, I do love Sleepless in Seattle a little bit.

You've got male less so. That kind of, I just, I like, you know, I like her movies. But when Harry Met Sally is a work of genius and I love it. I just love it. Well, on to a book now that was so buzzy when it first came out. Your fourth bookshelfy book is The List. Yes. by Yomi Adeguke.

A high-profile journalist Ola Ola Dijé is marrying the love of her life in one month's time. She and her fiancée Michael seem to have it all. That is, until one morning when they both wake up to the same message, it began as a list of anonymous allegations about abusive men, and now it's been published online. Now, Ola made her name breaking exactly this type of story, but today, Michael's name is on there. Will the truth behind the list change everything for both of them?

Tell us why you chose us. What struck you about it? I just think it reminds us at a time when we're so clear in our ideas of what's right and wrong and we are so polarised by our opinions, I think it reminds us that the truth is often much more complicated and that to dig your heels in and to be completely inflexible can damage you as a much as it damages other people. And I think she writes about it. Brilliantly, she kind of pulls apart that whole, or she sort of dismantles the foundations

of the moral high ground so brilliantly and makes her really question her position because I think my only kind of concern with it is that I think it's one of those books that, you know, In the light of the Louis Theroumannosphere documentary is the kind of book and the kind of story where one of those people could look at it and go, well, see, you need to be careful. It's a bit hashtag not all men. Yeah. But at the same time, I think that the people who are reading it will understand, because they're not going to go and find this book. But I think the people who are reading it will understand that it's more about just keeping your own checks and balances in place and just making sure that you're,

questioning yourself and that you're not kind of defaulting to, you know, an ingrained moral standpoint, just out of habit, that you're actually thinking about each situation on its own, yeah, on its own, um, on its own considerations. Why do you think we do dig our heels in? Is it just easier? Is it just that we, you know, we're in echo chambers? Yeah, it's comfortable. We're in echo chambers. We talk to our friends who back us up who say, yeah, no, absolutely right. This is, yeah, and who kind of repeat our own opinions back to us. And I think it's, it's quite a dangerous place to be. And I also think that sometimes it's easier as well to take a position and say, that's where I want to be and not

think about all the steps on the way there. So not to think, well, do you know what, it might take a long time for a ship to turn. So if I can only turn it. And, you know, at two degrees, at least I'm going to be closer to where I need to be than I would if I just stayed on the same path that I'm on. So I think it's sometimes about accepting imperfections and it's sometimes about saying, well, it isn't exactly how I want it to be, but it's closer to where I want to be than it was, than I was before. I've explained that really badly. I like the ship analogy because I'm picturing it. So thematically, this book deals with a lot of topics that we are talking about all the time.

Themes of sexual abuse, the Me Too movement, online exposure of abusers. How did you feel about the way it reflected the world that we live in? How did it make you feel about the world looking back in itself? Yeah, it also, I think, it reflected how quickly that world moves. Yeah. and how much of a snowball effect any piece of information can have and how easily we get hold of something. Something slip through the net.

Bigger stories can slip through the net, but sometimes one little germ can just catch hold and suddenly there's this whole online drama about it. To the point where people who are not as chronically online as I may be at times have no idea that this story is happening. And you think, how, you kind of step outside of that bubble and you're like, how do you not even know that this is going on? It's a bit like, I mentioned the Manistphere documentary also when, when adolescence came out. And there were so many parents of children who were in my children's peer group.

And they were saying, I didn't know this was going on. I didn't know that this is what young boys were exposed to when, you know, online and they were part of these groups. And I was like, how do you not know that? And it's just because they're not terminally online in the same way that I am. And it doesn't bleed into real life until it's too late. And so without actually going into that side of things really too much in the book, I think that's one of the topics that is now at the moment, a very hot topic that that that book kind of deals with from the edges of it. well. It's funny actually seeing that online world then being sort of picked up by mainstream

media. Sometimes I watch the news and I think why is that the top story? But they've realized that there's traction online and they've jumped on the bandwagon too. And I sometimes feel like they should have more responsibility than that. Yeah. Sort of exacerbating things or giving platform to views that don't need to be the top. No, it's a really difficult balance. I don't envy anybody who works in news at the moment because there is that balance to be struck between what is a huge deal online,

what is a huge deal if you're just kind of meeting a friend for a coffee or what is a huge deal if you live in London or a big city? What is a huge deal if you don't live in a big city? You know, different things are important to you. But also that idea of a story being popular, It's not just about putting clickbait on a news website. It's about explaining something in more detail to people who are already interested as well. So there is a responsibility on that side.

I'm glad I don't have to kind of negotiate all of that because I think it's really difficult because it's almost like there are two worlds to get your news in. And actually, if you look online, there are lots of different worlds. And then there's the sort of analog world, if you like, where you're getting your news from more traditional means. What means? Sports broadcasting is and has been a traditionally very male-dominated field. Were there any elements of this book which resonated with you in that respect? A little bit, because I think the idea of the list where you expose people's bad behaviour, I think anybody who's worked in a male-dominated field would be tempted by that at some stage to just say, do you know what, let's just set up an anonymous forum. Let's just set up, release an anonymous. list where you put anything to the extent that that's mentioned in the in the book but just people

who are low level badly behaved let's do that and I can so see the temptation but when there are no checks in place that can very quickly get out of hand as we see in the book it's so dangerous and I think that's what the book does really well it kind of explains why that is not a good idea We've gone on quite a journey today, Kelly, because we've arrived at your fifth and final bookshelfy book, which is taking us to a completely different topic altogether and doing so with the wit and humour that I've noticed through at all of your picks that's always underlying even the most serious themes.

Your fifth book is Rachel's Holiday by Marian Keyes. Rachel Walsh has been living it up in New York City, spending her nights talking her way into glamorous parties before heading home in the early hours to her adoring boyfriend. But when her sensible older sister shows up and sends her off to rehab, she agrees on the understanding that it will be water wall jacuzis, spa treatment, celebrities going cold turkey. What she expects to be a luxurious retreat

become something far more confronting and ultimately transformative. Now, you've actually chosen this book as the one that you always recommend to friends. So what makes it so universally enjoyable? It's the one that I recommend to friends who would, who have stopped reading or who've, like you said, when you've just had a baby and your head is all over the place and you can't focus on anything and you just want something that grabs you from the beginning. And I always recommend it to friends because Marian Keyes has this gift of writing the way that women speak to each other in conversations in the way that women speak to each other in conversations in the way that. She tackles at times really quite dark, difficult subjects, but she always does it in that tone of sitting over a coffee or a glass of wine or which would be inappropriate in light of what the subject of the book is. But it, you know, it's the way that women talk to each other. We can sit down over half an hour and hour and cover everything from, you know, death and divorce and family. family pain and personal issues to falling over in the street to, you know, kind of where are you going to go and get, where do you get the best waxing?

Where do you get, you know, just every, from the superficial to the incredibly deep. And I think that she does that brilliantly. And I think that's how women talk to each other. And I think that she is is the best at it. And I think other people, I think very MacFarland. does it really well. I think that Emily Henry does it really well. I think there are other people who do that kind of women's literature brilliantly and that sort of romantic comedy almost style of writing. And Marian Keyes has talked about this a lot herself. If it was men writing with this level of emotional understanding and emotional intelligence, they would be lauded. They would be winning. Oh, I can't believe this insight into the male psyche is so incredible.

And because that's how women talk to each other, it's seen as just, oh, it's just women chatting. And it's kind of dismissed as a genre. But I think the very best forms of it are really revealing and have great understanding of the human condition, I think. I feel like the way Marian Keyes writes conversation, it's so spot on the rhythm, but also the melody of it. Yes. The piltz. Yeah. You can hear the conversation.

It's very specifically Irish, isn't it? It's so Irish. Yeah. You can, and I don't know, I don't know how she does that. And I actually don't want to pick that apart in her writing. I just like to, you do feel almost kind of lulled by it because of the rhythm. Yeah. Of the, of the speech in it.

And I just, I love it. And again, it's the, the interactions in the, in the sort of romance style of it. The interactions are, it's not just, I'm really fancy you in it. or there is a depth to the relationship as well, which is really lovely. Marion famously explores what it's like for women in their 40s, 50s and beyond, actually. How important have her books been for normalising your own experiences and how you've been able to redefine midlife as a time for reinvention, a time for growth? Yeah, I think she, because I suppose I've sort of read her books

when I've been at each stage of my life. So, you know, when she writes about Rachel's holiday and when she writes Rachel's holiday, she's writing from partially her own experience of addiction and being in the kind of places that are sort of in the cloisters as an amalgam of. But she also writes about her own depression and Mystery of Mercy Close, which is another one of the World's Sisters books. And then she goes on to write books like grownups,

which is about those slight, those kind of, slightly later relationships. And it's how she writes by the breakup way. You know, it's about a couple who lose each other and then find each other again. And so she writes about all those different stages of life so brilliantly. And yeah, I suppose I've found each one of them when I've been at that stage of my life. And there's always something that resonates. But I still go back to those books that she writes about women in their late 20s, early 30s.

Because I think that's such a transformative time that I think they're the most, it's almost the most, I suppose probably late 40s, early 50s is similar in a way. But those kind of late 20s, early 30s, you feel like you're making life-changing decisions. And you are in a way making life-changing decisions, none of which are reversible other than probably having children. But none of which are going to, you know, that you can't, don't mean you can't change your life course later on. But yeah, it's a really interesting time in a woman's life, I think. There are bittersweet notes throughout her work, especially because of that wit and humour that we keep coming back to, much like Nora Ephron as well,

in handling very heavy subject matter. And she draws, like you said, from her own experiences of addiction. Did it change the perception that you have of addiction and recovery? Yeah, I think, especially when I first read it, I think the idea of Rachel as someone who was in denial and her coming to the sort of understanding of what denial was. I think that was a really key learning for me. I think that understanding that people genuinely just don't see things. And I don't think I'd ever really understood that before I read this book, this idea that, you know, you always think, I know, they must, they must know a list.

little bit and they must but no people are just oblivious to things that seem blindingly obvious from from the outside and the book can really do that because we get that totally new perspective yeah and look at the world differently yeah look at ourselves differently yeah exactly and that that idea if i say well of course i go out and i do this on a night out everybody does this on a night out and then you realize that how she justifies it to herself um and how how how she justifies her extreme behavior with other people's much smaller behavior is, I find that really interesting as well. That balance of the external dialogue, the conversations and what's going on internally is so exquisite.

Yeah, it's perfect. She just kind of, the way she tells a story, tells Rachel's story through Rachel's perspective and Rachel's eyes, and then all the different voices that come into it, whether that's in flashback or whether that's when they actually come into therapy with her. It's a completely different. And, you know, it's not always about the addiction. There's a time when her parents come in and she talks about eating some Easter chocolate and her mom kind of has no recollection of this huge moment in her life. And that idea that these incidents happen to you or these incidents occur in your life

and they are huge. They feel so important, particularly in childhood. And nobody else remembers them. They're not, you know, they're not a big deal in other people's lives. And yet they could be hugely formative to you. or to the person who's in the story. We're talking of all those voices, all those perspectives, all those stories that have meant something to you throughout life.

I'm going to ask you to go back through your list and pick one favorite, Kelly. Oh, okay. Oh, which one? Which one would I go for? They're all quite different. They are really different. They're not really very different. I think probably heartburn.

I just love it. I just, and I don't read it too often. because I don't want to become numb to it. I don't want it to be just background for me. I want to, every time I read it, I want to be surprised by it. And I want it to make me laugh out loud. And I want it to kind of, I want to come across moments where I got, I forgot that that happened. I love that bit.

And yeah, that would be the one for me, I think. Sometimes the less time you give something, the more potent it will be. Yeah, yeah. do. We were talking earlier about how you can realize something about yourself when you look back through the books that you picked. Is there anything that has come to mind where you've gone, oh, actually, I use a bit of me. Yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm a lot softer than I thought I probably was. Yeah, I think it's more just that I am really, what I'm most interested in the world is how people work and how they think and how they move through the world. And I love a sort of moral quandary. I love,

I love it. I could have put in like a Jodie Pickle book because the girls have been, have both started to read, one's read, one's about to read my sister's keeper, which is obviously the classic Jody Pickle book. But I love that idea of picking apart a moral dilemma and sort of looking at it from all the different, all the different angles. I love that. Well, I think that's something that in this day and age we should be encouraged to do more and more rather than just having a hot take. Yeah. So that softness is something that we should celebrate and all the sides of ourselves. Thank you so much, Kelly. It's been such a joy having you on the podcast. How lovely to come in and talk about great books. It's good, isn't it? It's been really lovely.

We can do it again if you like. I'd love to be recording it or anything. Exactly. Yeah, just coffee, wine. It's like, we're good. Thank you so much. Thank you, Vic. I'm Vic Hope, and that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize,

supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books that we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org shelf where every purchase supports independent bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust, a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing. Now remember to hit the follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you like this one, then leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. I'll see you next time.