Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S9 Ep6: Bookshelfie: Oti Mabuse

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

South African broadcaster, author, world-champion dancer and star of Strictly, Oti Mabuse tells Vick about her love of spicy romance novels, her rejection of tokenism and why she loves audiobooks. Oti captured the hearts of the British public on Strictly Come Dancing, and is the only dancer to have won the show twice in a row - in 2019 and 2020. She’s presented and judged on a whole host of prime-time TV shows, including entertaining young children during lockdown with her CBeebies show Boogie Beebies, and her children’s book series Dance with Oti which celebrates dance and expressing your feelings by way of the penguin waltz and the turtle tango. She has also toured nationwide with her solo entertainment shows I Am Here and Viva Carnival, and most recently released her debut romantic fiction novel, Slow Burn.Oti’s book choices are:**You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero**Fundamentally by Nussaibah Younis**Icebreaker by Hannah Grace**Audre & Bash Are Just Friends by Tia Williams**It Ends With Us by Colleen HooverYou can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

Coming up on bookshelfy. I'm sorry, have you seen on Instagram ice hockey players warming up? And they're like on the floor and they're like grinding the ice. And you're like, yeah, that's why we love this book. I've never seen that. You've never seen that? Not on Instagram. Oh, no.

I just get sea creatures covered in barnacles. No. When I'm feeling a little bit stuck, when I'm feeling a little bit, I can't go home. You know, at the flight, I can't go home. I pick up a book like this and it just reminds me of who I am. You come as well across a lot of people who say whenever you achieve something or you gain something that is just pure tokenism. And I always say I'll be the best token you've ever seen.

I'm the shiniest coin. I love that. I'm the shiniest coin in the box, baby. Have you found that the genres or the books that you gravitate towards have changed since you had a child that you became a mother? They got spicier. Yeah. Hello, I'm Vic Hope and this is Bookshelfy, the podcast from the Women's Prize that asks women,

with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Now, before we begin, remember to subscribe or follow so you never miss an episode with thanks to our sponsor, Bayleys. Today, I am joined by Oti Mabusi. Oti is a South African broadcaster, author and world champion dancer. She captured the hearts of the British public on Strictly Come Dancing and is the only dancer to have won the show twice in a row in 2019 and 2020. She is presented and judged on a whole host of primetime TV shows including entertaining young children during lockdown with her CBB's show Boogie Beavis. And her children's book series, Dance with Otey, celebrates dance and expressing your feelings by way of the penguin waltz and the turtle tango. She's also turned nationwide with her solo entertainment shows

I Am Here and Viva Carnival And most recently she released her debut romantic fiction novel Slob And welcome OATI! Thank you! She's here! What an introduction! I love it! It's quite hard to think what to put in yours because you've done so many things and such varied things.

That's why I'm tired. That's why I have wrinkles under my eyes now. You don't have wrinkles under your eyes. It's why I need a holiday. I need people to pay me to take holidays so I can just read. OTA, you just got back from South Africa. You've just been telling me you got back from South Africa yesterday. But I wanted it as a lifestyle job choice. You know what I mean?

This is my lifestyle choice and I choose to be paid for it. But you're saying that more holidays to read. Are you a big reader on holiday? Is that your favorite kind of time to escape? Yeah, it really is. And do you know what I've realized? I'm a lover for audiobooks. Audio books are like my thing.

I just put on my ear. I disappear. I've got to gym. I clean. I'm not there. But when I have my daughter, if I actually have a physical book and she sees me reading, she's like, oh, this is what mommy does. So I think I should do that. So now we both take a book and we sit down and we can read. I mean, she makes things up. She sings her own songs. She does her own thing. But when she sees me physically holding a book and just paging, doesn't have pictures, has lots of words. She does. same and I think it's just a thing that I now consciously do to actually have physical books there that she knows these are mom's books these are my books and we read otherwise she knows something

goes in my ear and mom ignores me which is what I love when I'm listening to my spicy novels I put in my hair and I know everyone and I'm smiling for no reason but when it's like really nice books I read next to her and that's what really helped us so it encourages her I have found since having a child. I mean, he's so influenced by what I do and he wants to do the same thing as mum and dad are doing. He's a sponge. So seeing that physical book, when I was breastfeeding, I didn't have the hand to turn pages. And so that's the only time I've really read on a tablet was simply because one of my hands was busy. And as soon as I've now, I mean, I'm still breastfeeding, but as soon as I've got a bit more time on my hands and I'm able to put him down, that's when

the physical books have come back into my life. Audio books. Audio books are for you. you when you're breastfeeding. Have you found that the genres or the books that you gravitate towards have changed since you had a child that you became a mother? They got spicier. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

That question was going there. Definitely got spicier. Definitely have no complaints from my husband. He loves the fact that I love spicy romance is because he like reaps the gifts from that. I think for me why it is that is that I really need that escape. I really need that fun. I also like stories that have depth in them and sort of feel real and I can connect with from either stuff we've seen in the media,

whether it's religion, whether it's history, whether it's culture. They are as close to being real as possible. Those are the things that I really connect with. Sort of a world that you recognize. Yeah, exactly. You said that you love romantic fiction. Slobun, of course, being just that. Why is this your genre?

Because this is the genre that I'm the most focused, the most concentrated, and I get through the book the fastest, right? I think I love the idea of people falling in love. I love the extra tension. I love the romance behind it. I love the roughness behind it. And again, the realness, right? So when we're watching a chick flick, you know what's coming.

You know, like, you know that. the man is going to fall in love with the woman and then they're going to break up and then they're going to get back together and there's going to be this loving speech. But with spicy or with, yeah, romantic novels, it's more detailed. It's more real. It's something really close to us. It's something that you felt before physically, emotionally and psychologically. We love love. Yeah, we love love.

And so when you were writing it and adding another string to your bow, you're already very, very, very, Busy, Bo. What was that like for you, putting pen to paper? So I wrote it with a lady called Lorraine Brown, and she was really amazing with me because it's the stories that you kind of, you've experienced in life, you don't want to name names,

and multiple situations that you've also been through. And for me, it was like, how do I make the dance world interesting beyond the strictly curse, which everybody loves to talk about, We love to love that. We hate to love that. Oh, don't worry.

I'm going on strictly. Yeah. Oh, I know. So it was gathering that sexiness and the steamness of what happens at after parties, but also putting it in the real dance world, the competition world of what really happens there. And then pushing myself further to actually creating characters that have lives, that have siblings, that have stories that have trauma and how their trauma have led them to make decisions on how they talk to people or how they relate to audiences.

So it was a big push because it's not children's books. Love children's books. But this was like a lot more words, a lot more character building. And I'm writing my second one now. And I think with that experience, I'm like even, I want to be even more sexy. I want to make it even more raw. If that is possible, I want to see. Yes.

I can't wait. Well, talking of character building, we'll talk about your first book, Shelby book. You said obviously you love, romance and there are a few in your list which are romantic but we're going self-help to begin with. Your first boot shelphy book is You Are a Badass by Jen Sincereo. In this how-to guide, bestselling author and success coach Jen Sincereo serves up 27 bite-sized chapters of inspiring stories, sage advice, easy exercises and the occasional swear word helping you to create a life you love to love what you can't change and teaching how to use the force to kick

some serious ass. Now for the uninitiated, what is the force? I mean, it is, it is who you are and who you become and how you make things work for you. I feel like for me, I was at a point on my life. I hadn't yet discovered, we talked about romance books. I was all about self-help books. I want to make myself better. It was just before strictly. You were reading a lot of these. Yeah. And this was the one that really connected with me because it was really about the message, what you say to yourself to convince yourself that you can do something or what you say to convince yourself that you can't do something. And it was a lot about the words we put out in the world because those words bounce back and it stays in our own heads, how to achieve a goal. You don't say, I want this to

happen. What are the steps that you're going to do to achieve that goal? It's really great for finance because I think it's been many. it's a very important thing that we're financially stable and we're financially literate. So it teaches you how to be financially reliterate and how to go from A to Z knowing every single step, business, life, family and career. When you picked up this book the first time, he said it was sort of just before Strictly. Yeah. Where were you at in yourself?

What was it that you needed to say to yourself? I had just moved from Germany to the UK. And actually it was my second year in the UK already. My first year I went out really early. And I said to myself, I came all the way from Africa, man. That is a long trip. I came with a 20-kgy bag and myself in a dream. And I have to do something to get better at my job, right?

It's up to nobody else but me. And I remember it was the first book that had swear words. And I was like, I need something. I need to cuss. I need something. And it said badass. And I love the idea of a badass. And it was a yellow cover and was written in bold letters.

And it just came at me because I feel like at that moment I was doing everything right. I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary. I wasn't trying to stick out. I wasn't trying to push myself. I was just trying to be in my little box doing the right thing. And constantly saying, oh, poor me, poor me. I come from, you know, I come from South Africa. I don't know this, I don't know this.

And this book was like, no one cares. No one cares. People just want to see that you work hard. People want to see that you have a plan. And people will follow if you lead properly. And it changed my mindset, like the making excuses, the, and I think I needed that. You asked why did I need it? I needed to stop making excuses and to really outperform myself every single time.

I can't imagine you as someone making excuses. Oh yeah. I just, I really can't in the years that I've known you, your full name, Othalil, it means I am here in Setswana. When you enter a room, you know Oti Mubusi is in that room. Do you know what I mean? Thank you. Do you think that your name sort of shaped who you are? Yeah, but I don't think I'm confident all the time and I do feel there are periods of my life even now where I take knocks confidently.

I mean, you're in our industry. sometimes we get a lot of nose and sometimes we get a lot of yeses, but you do, it does affect you, it does affect your confidence, it does affect how you see yourself and how you feel about yourself. And books like this, which I'm so happy that I read earlier in my career, are something that I can always go back to. It's like my guide to life, it's like my little Bible, where when I'm feeling a little bit stuck,

when I'm feeling a little bit, I can't go home. You know, at the flight, I can't go home. I pick up a book like this and it just reminds me of who I am and also just gives me the step of how to get back to Utile, the person who I was when I came to the UK, let me just say Germany even, when I left home, that ambitious 20-year-old who is going to take over the world is a completely different person to who I am now. And I think that's been because of life and the ups and downs that it comes with and books like that remind me of that little girl like that ambitious she didn't care like

risk was all she did she just everything was the risk she left everything moved to you upset i didn't care i will make it i don't know how that girl is who i'm always trying to get back to and books like that remind me of that and tell me a little bit about that little girl yeah when you were in south africa what did life look like life was bright it was loud um It was very, very colorful. I think when I think of baby OT, as a South African thing, everything is always positive. We're always thinking about things positively. We always, I think what I've learned, let me say that, what I've learned in the UK is people are very humble.

But if I compare humble in South Africa to humble in the UK, they mean completely different things, you know. So if I was, example, to walk in. with like a bag and a car and glasses and my hair done. And South Africa they'd be like, oh my God, that's amazing. She's feeling herself. Yeah. If I'm here, they'd be like, oh my gosh, she loves herself a little bit too much, doesn't he? So that difference I had to kind of like, oh my gosh, I grew up being told, go big, loud, be

crazier, be this and this and this. And aim high, you know, let's try and make something of ourselves. More is more. Like if you're a celebrity in South Africa, you are dancing, you're acting, you're writing, you are singing, you've got an album, you're presenting, you're hosting, you are doing everything. Then you are known as a say, here you have to do this one thing. That is it. And if you do too much, oh no, you're everywhere. Oh, no.

We don't want to see that. Oh, it's too much. I'll give up with people a chance. So finding the who am I in worlds that are completely contradicting each other was very difficult. And I feel like I have that. I need to go home to go charge my battery and then I come here. I do my stint and then I'll go back home again and I charge my battery and then I become myself. It's funny that you said too much there.

So in Nigeria with my family are from, too much is a compliment. Yes. that you look great, you look beautiful, you're spot on. Oh, you're too much, too much. It's good, whereas here too much. It's just too much. Let's bring it down there. Yeah, bring it down.

You're a little bit too loud. You're a little bit too excited. Oh, you're just everywhere. Oh, she gets where water doesn't. That's what I get. And I'm like, yeah, I sure do. So those are like the big points of my life. And I needed that book to say, yeah, take up space.

Take up your space. Be bold. Be loud, be ambitious, go for that job. There's so many times when I talk myself out of jobs, interviews, opportunity, where I'm like, I'll never want me. Like they generally just, I'm not even trying. I don't even try. And when I go home and everybody's like, yeah, but why not you?

Like, why not you? And I can't answer those questions. And so that's why I need kind of that type of community around me all the time and self-help books do that for me when I can't go home. Self-help books sometimes get a little bit of a negative wrap, I find. And I think it's probably because they, you know, are consumed a lot by women. A lot of genres that women consume more of, all of a sudden not serious. And that's not necessarily true.

I think, you know, there's so many different self-help books, so many people that I really love. Like Mel Robbins is another, Mel Great is brilliant at it, you know. does a podcast, it does. And I feel like a lot of self-help books are consumed by women because we're fighting so much. We're fighting so many systems. We're fighting so many mentalities. We're fighting so many mindsets that we constantly need help from other women. For a community. We are helping each other out. And we are, we learn best through experience. And I think when another person has been through what you've been through or has succeeded or you can aspire to what they have

or their ways of life, that's why it works so well. But I, okay, I'm going to be negative now, but I can never put myself in a position where I give advice in that. Do you know what I mean? I'd struggle.

I'd feel too responsible if it all goes wrong. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, go for a job, they work, but I can't. And I'm like, oh,

yeah, I told them to do it. Um, so, um, I, I think they work well because we all, I want to feel better. Like I said, I think we're fighting a lot of systems that we

aren't meant to fight. And so as much help as we can get as much information. And again, another thing, there's not enough information done on a lot of things that have to do with women. Yeah. And that's the other reason why we always have to build that community for other women. Well, it's one of the reasons behind the Women's Prize for nonfiction to celebrate nonfiction by women of which that doesn't feel like there's enough and yet the women are there writing it with that acumen with that knowledge with that mastery. But we move on to your second book shelfy book, which is a Women's Prize for Fiction shortlisted novel. It's fundamentally by Nisva Eunice. This critically acclaimed debut novel by academic and former humanitarian

worker Nisaba Eunice was shortlisted for the Women's Prize of Fiction last year 2025. In it, we meet Nadia, also an academic, who following a rocky relationship with her mother and a painful breakup, accepts a UN job in Iraq. Tasked with rehabilitating ISIS women, Nadia becomes mired in the opaque world of international aid and forms a complicated friendship with one of the women she's trying to help, Sarah. Fundamentally is a bitingly original, razor-sharp satire about love, family, radicalism and the decisions we make in the pursuit of connection and belonging. This one I read in hardback after my baby was born.

So whenever I wasn't breastfeeding, because I needed two hands for this, why have you chosen this book today? Oh, man, when we talk about real, this is the book. It was a book that I actually listened to this one in audio, and I recently listened to it, I think last month. And I had it on double speed because I just wanted to get through it so much. It's such a page dinner. Bad listening.

Like I was, I was so obsessed with it. And I think, why am I obsessed with it? I'm obsessed because it's about religion. I'm, I'm Christian, but I love and respect all religions. And I think the more we read about other people that are not like us or don't practice things that we practice, the more we are more open-minded and it's all about education. I love the relationship that she had, well, with sorrow or her ambition to, to do something good, right?

Like you're rooting for both of them. You're rooting for her with her mom, where you're like, yeah, some of us do have rocky relationships with her mom. Not every mother-daughter relationship is perfect. But then you could see how that relationship is then reflecting on her relationship with sorrow

because she also wants more. She also is doing a lot. And I don't know if I could say the end, but what happened is, was the moment where I went, Oh no! You know what I mean? Like you scream,

you go, oh no, what was all of that for? And then she explains it. And in my head, I had to think of what the power of belonging is. You know, we all want to belong to an idea, a group of people, a community. You see what's out there. You say, this is for me, this is not for me, whether it's right or wrong, that those are the choices in life. but that's how far we will all go.

Like how far Sarah went for her need to belong, how far Nadia went for her maybe not to belong to a certain community, but also change it. And the mom as well, to belong to the community where she is living right now, to not stick out or, you know, don't be too much, don't make people notice that we are different. But it was such a page turner. And I feel like it generally changed.

my view, again, my relationship with my daughter, because I feel like communication is really important. Tradition and culture and just instilling those things in her are really, really important. But also giving her the choice to make her own decisions. I just let go sometimes and be like, you want to jump off the couch? Life will teach you. See what happens. Yes, see what happens. Don't call me when you need me. But yeah, it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot also about religion and just different forms of it and that everybody chooses how they they see their higher power right and they will leave that life or live that life or that lifestyle as to how they believe it's supposed to be and that will fulfill them and it was really good because if if I

read anything with like religion I'm like no I'm out I'm like I know it's just too much but this is different. I mean, it was so funny. It's a real, you know, dark humour because it's dealing with a very heavy subject matter. I hadn't really thought so much about radicalisation. And there's something about, I mean, you can see from the front cover, though, their eyes, one in a hijab and one of the glasses. Which I didn't see. Yeah, it takes a while. I just saw eyes. I was like, oh, this is a purple cover with eyes. Let me just see. Brilliant. It is. And it really reflects the fact that it's teaching you to put yourself in other people's perspective, see things from their perspectives, walk a day in their shoes, that empathy, there's different reasons people feel

different ways we should understand one another. And at the core of that is female relationships like you talked about between mother and daughter, between friendships, between these two women. Female friendships, I imagine, must play such a big part in your life, especially in the world of dance. How important have they been for you? I mean, that's mostly all my relationships are female. Female or the gays. I love the gays. I love the gay. I feel like that. I'm not a gay. But my very first relationships or biggest relationships I could say outside of my mom would be my sisters who are my everything, both of them. I tell them everything. I'm really bad at keeping secrets away from them.

But they kind of form the way I walk into the world. You know, I'm the last born. I'm a very last born. I'm like the most prime last born you can think of. No. Every stereotype you can think of the last born. I am her. She's the baby.

I'm the baby. I do what I want. I say what I want. I get everything. And when I get told off, I'm like, I like so look a lot. But I do that because I know I've got two sisters who are my lions on the side of my shoulders and they give me confidence every single day. We fight, but we fight with love.

We advise each other with love. We laugh with, we love so much. Like we barely laugh. And it's always a good time when we're together. and we push each other, which is, I think, really, really, really important. And, you know, thinking about the book, sometimes when you are going down the wrong path, I have sisters who are there to kind of guide me and or whether my other sister is dating, a guy that we don't like.

Yeah, we're like, yeah, we're going, mm-mm, he's not going to last, can you swim? No, well, you like to swim, he can't swim. That's not going to work, do you know what I mean? So good point. Might not have thought about it. Yeah, don't waste your time. Why you wish him? Because now you're wasting our time.

No, we have to meet him. Now that's the lunch that we could have had together. Now he's here. Why is he here? Because he's not going to be here next week. So we have those conversations. And in the book, a lot of the time, I was thinking, oh my gosh, where are the sisters? You know, where's the sisterhood that is about I'm walking into the room because I am, I've got these ancestors.

And I've got these two sisters that are next to me. And they give me the confidence. to do that. So yeah, those relationships are really important. We've had Monty on the podcast section for a couple of years ago. Yeah. Have you? Yeah. Yeah, she came on. Jealous. I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous. Yeah, I'm jealous. She was fast. It must be such a joy though because I see, obviously I've seen you working together, but also I see your videos when you go on holidays together. You know, that bond is strong and it is there. You have that support network.

We are annoying. We are so annoying. We are so annoying. Because we are on the phone. with each other all day. And if I'm not on the phone with her, I'm with the phone of the other sister. And it's literally, the phone call goes, hi, hi, what do you want? What do you mean what I want? It's like, yeah, you called me.

Yeah, but what do you have to talk about? I'm like, I have nothing to talk about. That's why I didn't call you. Well, let's make something up. And we'll end up being on a two to three hour phone call talking about everything. Every day, Vic. This is an everyday thing.

It's beautiful. It's painful, it's time consuming. It's annoying. Yeah. And if it doesn't happen, it's like, why are you mad at me? And she's like, that's not bad. How busy? I'm like, but you haven't called.

And she's like, why don't you call me? I'm like, you're the older sister. You have to call me. That's how it works. This book also deals with being an outsider. And I would love to know on that topic of being othered and in a way demonized by society or those around. Does it resonate in terms of,

your own background growing up in South Africa or the world of Latin and ballroom dancing. Wow, that's a very good question. I'm trying to think. I think why I resonated a lot with Nadia, because when she decided that she was going to go to Iraq and start this whole, you know, her own side of the UN, this was her doing everything that I feel like her mom, her community would have been like, why? Like it's not going to work. That's why it's never been done before. And that's why after this will probably never happen again. Everything she was doing, she was told that it was impossible, right?

And that related to me as well because everything I had done up until this point, I was told it was just impossible. It's impossible for black girls to move to Europe and actually have long careers in the Latin and Borum world because outside of me and my sister and Johannes, they were not many, they are not many South African or African Latin and Borum dancers who are successful at it. And then you come as well across a lot of people who say whenever you achieve something or you gain something that is just pure tokenism. And I always say I'll be the best token you've ever seen.

I'm the shiniest coin. I love that. I'm the shyest coin in the box, baby. And you have to battle that because you have to mentally fight that constantly, right? You have to mentally fight things that microaggression, unconscious bias. There's a lot that you have to fight that you instantly recognize that people might not see that they are doing. I will always fight that.

I've come to realize that. People don't like having a mirror held up either. No. So they will be very defensive about it. Yeah. And that's okay. I think that's okay. I can understand.

Yeah. It's okay that they defend themselves and rightfully they have a choice. But we also can't take away how other people feel, right? This is my feelings. They're personal to me. And if you have your feelings or anybody else differs, that's absolutely okay. I think it's okay in 2026 to just disagree. We could disagree and be in the same room and still both go about our days.

And you're right. People don't like to have a mirror point to that. up. But sometimes these are things that are factual. At the end, the thing about being South African as well and being different and coming from an apartheid country, pre-country, was that people were very clear with their discrimination. You know, they were very clear about it. Yeah, it's actually a different ballgame altogether in the UK when it's so tacit and subtle and it's in some ways. Yeah, because you go. Can you call it out? what's going on.

You can't. You can't, you can't, you're right. You can't call it out. It's, it's not a thing and you're constantly told it doesn't exist. It's, it's, it's, you're making it up, you're making excuses. You're, yeah. And so as a South African, it's like, okay, fine. I know what it is.

I know what we do. I know what it looks like. I know what it feels like as well. But I also know how to rise above it. And I, and I'm very proud of where I come from because, from birth, it's something that you're, it's not even a training, it's just a culture. You know, you're taught that not everybody sees everybody equally. And if you see anything like that, you call it out because we all have rights and we all belong.

That's, I think, like, if you come to South Africa, that is the first thing, you'll hear somebody shouting, I have rights. And I know the difference. And I love those, that kind of fire and that feisty because even as an outsider, you can see, when you are being treated differently, it's how you react to it. Sometimes you can just let it go. Sometimes you call it out. Sometimes you go, maybe I just don't want to be a part of that life.

Maybe I want to protect my energy. Yeah. But right now, I am here. You were named so perfectly and you are the shiniest token. I'm going to use that one. I am. I'm going to talk and I'll be the shiniest token. Well, you are.

I mean, you know, two times winner. Come on. She is actually the best. This episode of Bookshelfy. is sponsored by Bayleys. Bayleys is proudly supporting the 2026 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing

by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book.

Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. Your third bookshelfy, book I see is Icebreaker by Hannah Grace. Released in 2022, this sports romance became a TikTok or booktok sensation the following year, rocketing it to a New York Times bestseller with over one million copies sold. It follows the story of Anastasia Allen, a figure skater whose career seems destined for success, until she's forced to share the rink with the captain of the university ice hockey team, Nate Hawkins. At first, things are icy cold between them.

But it's not long before sparks start to fly and the ice begins to melt. Now, you've been a judge on ITVs dancing on ice. So you know the world of competitive figure skating. Between that and the romance genre, this is a book made in heaven for you. This, I'm sorry, have you seen on Instagram ice hockey players warming up? And they're like on the floor and they're like grinding the ice. And you're like, yeah, that's why we love this book. I've never seen that.

I just see that. Not on Instagram. Oh, no. I just get sea creatures covered in barnacles. No. You need to see. It's ice hockey. It literally looks like magic mic.

And they're like, that's just their warm up. So firstly, I just discovered the ice hockey world. Thank you. It's been a great pleasure. It's been nice to see it. I'll be searching. Yeah, please. I'll send you some links.

No. So I, why did I love this book? Firstly, I'm obsessed with Hannah Grace, right? Herself. because the idea of Hannah Grace is not her real identity. Nobody knows her identity. I keep, because we have the same publisher, I keep asking the publisher, is this you? Are you, Hannah Grace?

Are you, Hannah Grace? They're like, no. Yeah, and they're like, no, OTI, we're not going to tell you who it is. And I feel like I've read a lot of her books. And what I love about all her books, one, the first one, is that they continue throughout. And so you see the connection to you have one character who sticks out, then they get the second book. But this one was the first one.

And Anastasia is this feisty, she's really small figure skater. And you think she's like hardcore and she's a badass and no one can take her down. But then you see that also on the other side, she experienced so much of toxic abuse from her own partner, the partner that she's dancing with, she's skating with. So you'll realize, oh, she's not so strong actually. She's just, that's her way of flirting, you know. And then we meet Nate, Nate, who's the captain, he's very responsible.

And he's like, nothing is going to get in the way. I want to win this championship. But who is this girl? And why is she in the way? And she's angry at me because we have to share something about it's not my fault. But I love that she's just shouting at me, this little feisty thing. And their chemistry throughout the book is just incredible. And I've never read anything.

Honestly, before Icebreaker, I knew nothing about ice hockey. And now? Now, I'm like, give me a puck. And that's not a you for a missus. Yeah, now I'm all about the world, man. I want to move to Canada. No, but I really, like, it was, it was, I've read, like, novels and romantic, a spicy novel, but that, the spice level was five.

100%. 5. 10 out of 10, let me say. 10 out of 10. And another page turner for me where I was smiling. And if I couldn't read the book, because I even got the book and the audio book. Oh, you've got the both on the go?

Yeah. And I would say to my husband, here you go. And he's like, what are you listening to? And I'm like, yep, get ready. This book uses that sort of classic enemies to lovers formula, I think. But that sort of does an injustice. It's more than that. It's a trope and it works.

As an aficionado and now as an author as well, When it comes to the romance genre, what are your favorite tropes? Oh, do you know what it is? I need you to visually and literally explain everything. I need an every single little thing. I need to know the feeling. I need to know the experience. I need to know where, why, how the smell.

I need to know all of it. I need to know the beginning. I need the tension that builds up to the middle. I need the connection. I need also the sadness. There's a little bit of sadness, right, before the situation where in a lot of romance, spicy romances, there's always a reason why somebody's hesitant and it's always quite sad. It's always some trauma that is, again, you live your life and it causes you to make these decisions.

And then it's the ending and the reason. reason how you got there that makes the story for me. And it has to be a slow burn. I don't want to come in a quick, bam, ah, thank you, Matt. No, I want the relationship to build. I want to understand both of you. I want both of you to have real life situations happening. And then when the story builds and comes together, it's explosive.

Every last steamy detail. Every last immediate. And I want to know after what happens. That for me is important. What do we do now? Do we get a glass of water? For a glass of wine. Do we shower?

Do we chat? Do I go home? What happens? That's the important thing. Sports romances, they're sort of, I mean, they were a niche. Yeah. Obviously Icebreaker is a sports romance. No longer such a niche, I think, following the global success of heated rivalry.

Yeah. In that genre, we have, you know, we have these high stakes competitive kind of scenes, this feeling that you are no stranger to. You have performed and competed at the highest level. Tell me about the pressure of competition of live performances. You're so good at making this sound like these other books of my life. You're amazing. They're going to tell you that.

He's the stories of your life. I have nothing to do. I'm not, oh, this book, why I be a book? me. Because let me tell you, for anyone listening, watching right now, Oti Mabusi is so focused. It was, I mean, you were the dancer that everyone wanted to get paired with on Strictly because you were the best choreographer but also the best teacher. I was the best psychopath as well.

You got people good. You made them really good wherever they were coming from. How? Oh, do you know what it is? if I wanted and if you want it, that is half the journey. If I have to carry you to a point where you want it, that's just not going to work. But the nice thing about, you know, I did engineering. So my brain kind of always builds formulas.

You always create formulas. You go, this is what I want to get to. These are my tools. And so I have to build a show to make you interesting for the audience. So this is another thing in the badass book. It teaches you make your product feel like people need it. And when they need it, they want to pay for it and they want to pay you in votes. So that was one of the ways to gain a relationship with whoever I'm partnered with

and get to know them and put whatever they're about in the forefront and let the audience get to know them through the VTs, through the dance, through the music. Like if I think of Bill, that was probably he was the most open. about everything, you know, he spoke about his friends, he spoke about his family, he spoke about his travel, his love for birds. So we did like dances about animals or he's never been to Blackpool. So we did dance about Bill never been to Blackpool that he's taught and he's got all these famous friends.

They were like, where did you meet them in Paris? We did a drive towards that. So people got to know him through dance. So it was really about putting them and their lives in the forefront. This is Bill Bailey. This is Bill Bailey. Yes, sorry. That focus, that laser sharp determination, I guess the formulaic side of things you're saying could come from engineering.

But where does it come from? Why are you so driven? Competitive. It's a dancer in me. I think dances we are extremely competitive. I always reflect on the dance world itself, right? So we are raised to always aim for perfection. And then we spend most of our lives going to either schools, dance clubs, competitions or taking private lessons to people who tell us that we're not good enough.

Yeah, I imagine there's a lot of that. Yeah, you know, but not in a you are bad, in a way of just the basic idea, the fundamental idea of you going to someone to take extra lessons, take extra classes, take the, it's because. because you don't think you're good enough where you are in life and you always want to get better. That's just it. So you will always have this inherent feeling in your brain that you're just never ever good enough. But if I work harder, if I push myself beyond any capacity, if I dedicate my life, my conversations, my body, my food, my lip, like if you just are a hundred percent tunnel vision, focus on this one thing, you will get to the good. And that is something that is instilled in you from your very first step to, if you point a toe, they go, that's good. But, you know, if you had that arch, it would be better.

If you do a leap, they're like, yeah, but if you really push your legs or you went higher, no matter what it is, you always get notes, which also means you're still not, even if you're good, you're still not good enough. And you always have to aim for perfection. So I think when you are conditioned 32 years in an industry that instills that, you become competitive. So you always want to be the best. You always want, you always feel like you're not good enough and you always feel like you're either one count, what step, one beat or one lifetime or one opportunity behind. You can really see that in the dancers that, you know, we see on our television screens. I always say that. I always say, because you imagine if I grew up in the UK.

I always say that because I always feel like I came here 10 years too late Do I mean? Although I did come at the perfect time I feel But I always back If I was like a teenager here And I was like on Blue Peter

And I was like on MTV And I you know I started on CITV or CBBs And I always say if I was 10 years here earlier One step here early Things might look different now You never know But I think that's the dance in me

because you always feel like no matter what you have, no matter how many things you read in your introduction, I always feel like I'm one step behind. You can always do more. Yeah. But you do. Yeah. And I'm like, the thing is, you do.

Well, 24 hours. Yeah. Well, we have more books to discuss. Your fourth book, Shelby book, is Audrey and Bash are just friends by Tia Williams. This contemporary romance YA novel by Tia Williams was released last year. It's a classic friends to lovers narrative, which follows Audrey Mercy Moore, a materially privileged and emotionally complicated teenager. Audrey is reeling when her annual summer visit to her dad's Malibu Beach House is cancelled

and she's forced to write her self-help book in a claustrophobic apartment with her mum, stepdad and one-year-old sister, aka the goblin baby. She hires Bash Henry to be her fun consultant to generate material for her book. But the challenge to keep the relationship professional becomes increasingly hard. jam-packed with relatable characters and will they, won't they moments. This book was a Good Morning America book club pick and made its way to the New York Times bestseller list. So it's a story of first love, opposites attracting. What made you pick this one?

I love Tia Williams. Love Letter by Ricky is like literally one of my favorite books. Why did I choose this book? Because I love, first of all, how feisty Audrey is, right? She's just a whiny little teenager who I feel like is so misunderstood. But the only thing she's asking for as a firstborn, which I feel like firstborn daughters ask this a lot where they go, I feel like I wasn't loved long enough by myself.

So she's giving firstborn daughter energy completely, hence baby goblet. She, her parents are split. They're no longer living together. Dad lives in California with the new one. and they have a new baby. And she just loves time away from mom. And she wants that time away because mom comes with responsibility, doing your homework, making your bed, being accountable.

You know, the things that mothers want. They're maybe quite good actually in the long run. Yeah, the basic things, little things that are mothers are. Just tell me where you are. But that is just causing explosions. And I feel like it also reminds me very much of my relationship with my mom, which is very explosive. I mean, when I was at the peak of my teenage, she was at the peak of her menopause.

So it was just, boom. Wow. It's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of hormonal energy. There was just a lot of women happening in the house. And if she even said anything to me, it would explode. Or if I said anything to her, it would explode. And I think Bash was the red green flag, right? She just, she had done everything right.

She was the perfectionist. She was writing the story so that she could go into university and she wanted to be a writer and she had that passion. But she had no life experience. And Bash also had such a complicated life that he just let rumors about him so he can come across as cool. And their relationship of him trying to be this cool, calm, suave guy and her just being this explosive person.

When you actually get them together and you compare them, you realize actually that she's a lot cool and calm and more responsible. And he's just trying to get back and get over his relationship with his dad and the pressures of actually not, again, in the sports world being perfect for his father. And again, like you said, will they or won't they, do they like each other? other, even after their first kiss, you're like, okay, this is good. What more will happen? It's a very sweet book, so I really, really enjoy this one. It's that opposite attracts. Yeah. Which is also key to Slow Burn to your book. Tell me a little bit about how you came up with those characters

and how you developed them. Well, Snow Burn was really, honestly, I would say if you put every male dancer in the world, kind of a toxic male dance in the world, and every independent girl as well together, those things clash, if you can imagine, if somebody's like, I wanted my way. So you have this guy, his name is Gabriela and he's an Italian champion and he's done all the shows and he's loved not only in Italy, but Spain and Portugal and England. So he's a great global superstar as a dancer, but he also aims for perfection and not just for himself, but for the people that he's dancing with. And Lira was also, as her, in her teenage years, a very brilliant champion dancer, but she gave that all up so that she could take care of

her family business and do the dutiful thing as a firstborn daughter and make sure that her and her sisters will always be taking care of. And the school, the dance school, is kind of their livelihood. And then one day, the choreographer came in and was looking for many, many, many girls couldn't find one that Gabriela liked up to his standard. And this was in Lira's studio. And when the audition was done, she was like,

you know what, I really like that routine. Let me give it a try. And she was dancing the routine, and she didn't know that the choreographer Carlos was still in the room watching her. And he was like, no, you are the girls. girl. You are the girl that I love. And I'm going to make you dance with Gabriella. And they came together. And the first time they saw each other, they remembered, oh my God, 10 years ago,

we actually had one night stand. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And it was spicy. And he was really upset at her because she left early. And he, she was upset at her because she was like, what did you? What? did you think what's going to happen? I have to go home to my family and take care of my sisters and my mom and dad. And so we start to kind of see their relationship start off with a lot of opposition. You know, he's like, you haven't danced, you haven't competed, you haven't done any shows, you're completely out of this world and you need a lot more work. And she's like, you just need to be a lot more nicer and stop being. You just need to be a lot more nicer and work on your people skills.

And then again, I wanted the realness for people to understand why he wanted the perfection, right? And then you find out that it's actually he's dead who wants him to quit. And if that's why he is like, I need to be successful because if I'm successful, he will stop telling me to quit. And for her, she's keeping all of this a secret, but she still secretly wants to dance. So she's living out her dream, but it is very difficult because her family. don't know because she's not talking about her because she wants to be the responsible older sister. Audrey and Basharjah's friends is a sequel to seven days in June which continues the story of Audrey as she navigates her teenage years. The sort of family dynamics, the first love.

Would you ever consider writing your characters then for younger audiences that sort of going backwards forward that you can have that same world but in different parts of their lives and therefore explore a different thing? I would. I would because in my book so, We have Nolo and then we have Lissetti, who are the two older sisters. One is a Latin dancer and one is a commercial one. But the latter one, Nolo, is a ballet dancer. And actually, that's a really good idea. We could go back to the world of ballet, which is of Timothy Shalame.

It's an important world. This is for you to me. Yeah, this is what you do. Ballet matters. So I would actually consider that if I was given the opportunity. Well, hey, if your publisher is listening, we're not going to question you about your identity any further. You've got another book already in the pipeline, so maybe that's one for after that. That's the one, you know?

So they were like, what are you thinking for the third round? I'm like, let's do another one, a prequel about Nola in her early ages. Prequel. Okay, well, you mentioned toxicity, toxic male dancers there. And it is a theme in your fifth and final book, not in the dance world, but, coercive control is something that comes up a lot in Colleen Hoover's, it ends with us. It's what it's all about. A global bestseller that was recently actually adapted into a film starring Blake Lively.

It follows the love triangle of young business owner Lily, who hasn't always had it easy, but has worked hard for the life she wants. When she meets a handsome neurosurgeon named Riley, everything seems too good to be true. But as questions about her new relationship overwhelm her, so do thoughts. of her first love, Atlas, and the past that she left behind. When he suddenly reappears, everything Lily has built with Riley is threatened. Published in 2016, this is another example of a runaway TikTok success, becoming a bestseller of five years later,

largely thanks to the readers discovering and recommending it on Bootoc. It's notably a darker love story than some of the others that you picked, deals with themes of coercive control, domestic violence. How do you respond to the book's treatment of these issues? Do you know, I've read so many of Colleen Hoover's book, like Verity, Remember May, November 9, and she kind of has a theme with all her books. I think it's a real thing,

and it's a thing that we should continue to read about so that we can identify it as women. Yeah, it's actually really helpful sometimes seeing something that you might have got kind of scrambled in your head actually on the page and it clarifies for you. And sometimes you don't know, you know, when you are in those situations. You, you, and there's, there's so many ways of love bombing you and making you feel like you're the one who's actually going crazy or losing your family because you fell in love with someone and all of a sudden, you know, you're left alone, losing your friends, losing your society, losing people who are around you who could be like, I really think this guy is not really the one for you. He isolated.

Yeah, he isolates. you and books like this, although some, I think critics always say they are just quite negative and they're, you know, quite, there's a deep situation. They don't make you disappear. But for me, I feel like it's that realness that I'm talking about because these things really do happen to people in real life. And Lily's really lucky that she has Atlas because she, she has reference to what a good, healthy, happy relationship looks like and feels like. And it's with family and it's with friends and it's building your lives, your individual lives together and creating your own world. And it's not taking you out of your home

and isolating you and you feel like you've got no one and giving you love and then easily taking it away. So I think I really, not that I relate in a person, no way, but I relate in a way that I feel like I've had friends who've been in relationships like this and I would have given them this book to be like, hey, I'm not saying this is happening to you, but maybe just take a read of this. And if you identify anything within it, let's have a chat. We actually, we had Harriet Tice, the crime writer on the podcast not long ago and she said one of the biggest compliments she was paid was when a reader told her that she read her book, Blood Orange,

and realized that she was in a coercive situation and she got a divorce. And it was because she saw it on the page that she recognized what was happening to her and she could address it, but otherwise she probably wouldn't have realized. And that's a very powerful thing that literature has the capacity to do.

And she probably would have also not taken that advice from a friend or a parent or a loved one. Some have perceived this book to be glamorizing, domestic violence. Do you think that's a fair criticism? No, no, no, no. I don't think it glamorise it. I do think it puts it in the forefront of us having that conversation

because sometimes we stay away from those conversations, you know. And that's why it makes it difficult for victims to come forward because it's not something that we've made comfortable. I don't think we're at a place where we've created space enough yet for women to come forward about a lot of things. And there's still a lot of shame that is more, it's bigger, I think the shame is actually bigger than the actual thing that's happening. If you are in a coercive relationship, but as well, it's not like a physical one where you can say, here's my bruise.

It's something that you can't see. It's something that you can't write down on paper. It's something that's so difficult to actually say, I'm going through this if that person is likable. So I think stuff like this, we create the conversation. We make the space an open one. And maybe someone would go, I went through something like this. And you never know, it could be a lot of us in one room who's actually gone through something like this. But we've always been ashamed to talk about it.

He said if that person is likable, this charming anti-hero, Riley Kincaid, he's got this charismatic facade and it masks that underlying toxicity. Do you think that society's expectations around gender roles and sort of romantic love and what we expect from that make women vulnerable to these types of men? Yeah, but I also think they are just men who have it within them, you know, they're just broken from the get-go. And I wouldn't always say, because my husband always says, the situation's not plain black and white, because I always say, you can't blame other people for people's behavior, right? If somebody's mean, you can't just say, oh, maybe he grew up roughly. Some people just grew up really well off with nice parents,

with every opportunity and still turn out that way. I believe that it's within you. And society maybe allows you and it gives you certain achievements that builds that within you. But if you see someone who you feel like you can take advantage of and actually do take advantage of, that's within you. That's who you are. That's someone who you've always been in society.

obviously, then gives you these things that you achieve and it just builds that more in you. I don't believe in saying that other people are at fault, but I do feel like if you have something inherently in you, society will create opportunities for that to build more inside of you. I see. We've come to the end of all of your picks. And it's crazy because you said to yourself, I didn't necessarily see myself in these books. And yet each one we've come to is actually. very much the case. There's a recognition

or there's a resonance or there's some reason that that has shaped you in some way. What have you realized from looking back through your favourite books? That you ask very good questions, Big Ho! Really good questions!

I was like, oh wow! There's the first podcast where I sat. I'm like, oh my God, she's actually right. I think also I like books that resonate with things

that I love a lot, right? I love, I love, love, I love making love. I like sports. Yeah, love it. I love sports. I love the competitiveness. But I also love learning about people and things that I've, that I'm, that are not in my circle. And things that everybody should actually know about because the more we know about religion, culture, faith of other people, the more I think kinder will be.

Yeah. We walk a day in the shoes of others. It teaches us empathy. If you had to pick one book from your five as a favorite, or which would it be in why? Where's a favorite? Oh my God, that's really tough. I know.

I apologize. I would say the one that is still, it definitely would be between badass and fundamentally. And I'll tell you why. Because I feel like badass was the beginning of me. actually touching your book that I chose. I think as a teenager in South Africa, we have to read five, six books a year as a class,

but that is stuff that the school gives you. And if you tell me now, go read your own favorite book, I'm like, hell no. I'm going to party with the boys. It's a while for you to realize that you actually like reading again because it's yours. Yeah, and discovering that side of yours, especially when it's something that was forced on you.

And also being South African, everything was like, you need to go to school, you need to study, you need to read books because we fought for this for you. And so you go, oh, give me a break. And so I think badass was the first time I picked up a book, you know, wrote on it, you know, bend the ears, like, just went to bed with it. But fundamentally, was the book that actually got me really emotional and got me screaming and got me crying and got me understanding people and people's situation, even if I don't agree with them. It created an internal debate within me.

And I think we could all learn a lot without creating misconceptions and stereotypes about people. It's the book that is like, we are all just human and we all have lives to live. So two books that have taught you a lot, read at very different times in life because fundamentally it was only last year. So we're talking probably the first from your list of five to the most recent. Yeah. You can have them both. Okay.

Yeah. There you go. I'll go for fundamentally. I'll go off of fundamentally. That is definitely my favourite one. Odie, I could talk to you forever. I'm actually, I've got like, my producer has been writing on the Google Drive. You have to wrap it up. You have to wrap it up. We've gone over time. People are waiting at the door to get in the studio. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I honestly could talk to you forever. There's so many things. I was like, I want to know more about the toxic male dancers. I want to know more about. What's up.

There's so, we've got what. There is so much. Oti, you are magnificent. You are. everything. Thank you so much for coming on bookshelfy. Thank you for having me. I'm Vic Hope and that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize, supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books that we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org shelf where every purchase supports independent bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust, a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing. remember to hit the follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you liked this

one, then leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. I'll see you next time.