Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S9 Ep8: Bookshelfie: Holly Jackson

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Holly Jackson – aka the “Taylor Swift of books” – tells Vick about how she laughs at her bad reviews, her love of funny books about murder and what fans can expect from the second series of A Good Girl’s Guide to Murder.Holly is a superstar of crime fiction. She has sold over 10 million copies of her books worldwide, with translations in 45 different languages, a loyal following and a highly engaged global fanbase. A Good Girl’s Guide to Murder has spent over three years on the New York Times bestseller list and the series is now a major BBC and Netflix production, with season two due for release in late May. Holly’s other novels include Five Survive and The Reappearance of Rachel Price, and the paperback of her adult fiction debut, Not Quite Dead Yet, is published on 7 May.Holly’s  book choices are:**The Time Traveller's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger**Beloved by Toni Morrison**Fingersmith by Sarah Waters**My Sister, the Serial Killer by Oyinkan Braithwaite**The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins You can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

Coming up on bookshelfy. It is funny. I love books which have murder and are also funny. I really enjoyed it and I just love the humor. There were a few times where I was like snorting to myself because I was like, yes, this is hilarious. Murder is funny. A lot of last year I was on set a lot of the time

whereas when I'm actually writing a project is literally just me in my pajamas at my desk. So I feel like that's when I'm most related. when I'm my most disgusting and it's just pure creative and just pure writing. This book got me, the plot twist. I was like, couldn't breathe. I was like, oh, you Wiley Minks, you got me with that one. It was such, and I actually think this book didn't just have one big major plot twist where

everyone goes like, shut up. I think it had two of them and I think it pulled them off expertly. I think a lot of the time, the interests of teenage girls are looked down upon by other people, and I think they're stupid, because I think, if anything, teenage girls, they go through something. They're the smartest among us. They're the smartest. Hello, I'm Vic Hope, and this is Bookshelfy, the podcast from the Women's Prize that asks women,

with lives as inspiring as any fiction, to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Now, before we begin, remember to subscribe or follow so you never miss an episode. with thanks to our sponsor, Bailey's. Today I am joined by a superstar of crime fiction, Holly Jackson. Holly sold over 10 million copies of her books worldwide with translations in 45 different languages. She's often described as the Taylor Swift of books and has cultivated a loyal following and highly engaged global fan base.

A Good Girl's Guide to Murder has spent over three years on the New York Times bestseller list, and the series is now a major BBC and Netflix. production was season two due for release very, very soon. Holly's other novels include Five Survive and the reappearance of Rachel Price and the paperback of her adult fiction debut, not quite dead yet, is out on the 7th of May. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you.

Thank you for that big introduction. I feel a bit like Kaleesi from Game of Thrones where they just have so many monikas for her and you're listing them and everyone's like, yeah, get to it now. How does it feel when someone lists back the accolades, the achievements? I get shy. Do you? That wasn't me. And then I'm like, 10 million people have read my, oh my God, don't perceive me.

Gosh, just two people had read it. We were just talking actually about being perceived. More because this podcast had now visualised. So hello if you're watching on YouTube. So I had to put mascara on. And I. And I wouldn't usually. No.

Because personally, I mean, I do radio. Do some TV, but I like being on the radio because you can just, exactly. You can just get on with it and you're just chatting. How do you feel being. perceived. You have so many fans, so many readers, and isn't that the point to put these books into the world? Yeah, but then there is that like existential dread that people are reading something that you wrote and like, actually, to be honest, I have sort of grown a bit of a thick skin about it. And I'd say my attitude now is, has almost gone the reverse in which

sometimes I go on good reads and seek out the bad reviews and I find them funny. I like reading them. That seems like quite a healthy way. I don't think it's healthy. But to find them funny rather than hurtful. Yeah, I find them funny. But like you, I've got really thick skin now. Nothing you can say. I'd just be like, yeah, whatever, you're probably right. Don't care.

You can't take it personally because it's not you. It's, for a start, it's a book that you wrote and that has now been taken on board by the reader. It's up to my fault. It's your fault reader. Exactly. It's up to them to do what they will with it. Exactly. I mean, you've become something of a role model for.

for young women, aspiring writers, with the runaway success of your books and the TV adaptations as well. How has it been navigating that sort of level of fame, as it were? It's tricky. I would say like my day-to-day life, I mean, pick any sort of week in the year and ask me what I'm up to is always really different. There's not really a schedule per se.

Like a lot of last year I was on set a lot of the time whereas like when I'm actually writing a project is literally just me in my pajamas at my desk. So I feel like that's when I'm most relatable, when I'm my most disgusting. And it's just pure creative and just pure writing. And then, yeah, I do have a few pinch me moments where I'm like, oh, this is so random. We're making a TV show of that thing I just wrote randomly and sent it off. So, yeah, I'm still, I don't think I really like appreciate it. how mad it is because it's just work to me.

Like it feels like work. And so when I'm like getting up at 5 a.m. to trek it down to set on season two, sometimes I forget to be like, oh my God, this is actually really cool because it does just become work. And inevitably work is always boring. So newsflash, TV shows boring.

Prefer writing? I like the balance between the both because I think when I'm writing a book, is very much just me. Like, I know I have my agents and editors who I can ask questions to whenever I want to, but I tend to not do. I tend to just completely cave troll. Like, I've got no one to ask, like, does this sound like this is going to work?

It's literally like just me talking to myself. And sometimes it does feel a bit like lonely. And I like my own company. I'm a good type. But there is an element where I think TV show, because it's so much more collaborative and you're working with so many people, it takes a village. I think it's a nice balance of like forcing me out, out of my comfort zone and sort of like with other people and seeing what other creative minds can bring to the process.

So I quite like doing both. I think I want to, moving forward, obviously still keep doing books every year, but also adaptations. I really enjoy it and hopefully I'm good at it. We'll see when season two. comes out. I like that, the balance, the flexing of the different muscles, but I also really like that you describe being in your

pajamas and writing as pure creative, pure disgusting. Yeah, pure, when I'm doing my best work, I'm my most disgusting. Yeah, I feel you. I've washed my hair in like three weeks. All the better for it. You can take out the scrunchy and it stays in the top knot. That's what we're talking about. And the words on the page

are. They're golden. Yes. Those metaphors are singing. Well, your latest book, not quite dead yet. It's your first for adult readers. Has that experience been different for you? They felt like your readers are grown with you? To be honest, it's not different at all. It's like the exact same process as writing my YA books. Literally, I go through the same thing of structuring the plot where the midpoint hit. Like it's the same. I have to find a character journey for the main character. The only thing

is that the main character is 27, not 17, and I'm allowed to use my favourite swear word, which you're not allowed to use in YA books. What's your favourite? I don't think you want me to say it out loud. It rhymes with Hunt. Got it. My favourite two. Everyone's favourite word. Very risky putting that in an American book set in America though. They don't like it. They think it's really bad. They don't throw it around quite the same way that we do. So it was a risk, but I like risks. Well, from your favorite swear word to your favorite books. We're going to delve into the books that are shaped to you that you've loved. That was, what a brilliant segue. I hope I can keep it up, actually. I'm quite proud of that. Pure creative, pure disgusting. Your first book shelphy book is the time

traveller's wife. Yes. By Audrey Niffenegger. Henry is a librarian who suffers from a rare condition where his genetic clock periodically resets, suddenly finding himself pulled through time into his past or future. Meanwhile, Claire is an artist, waiting all her life for her great love Henry to appear. In the face of this force, which neither can prevent nor control, Henry and Claire struggle to lead normal lives. Multi-award winning, internationally bestselling, and adapted for film, TV, and into a musical, the Time Traveler's Wife is an extraordinary tale of love which transcends the boundaries of time

and was long listed for the Women's Prize for Fiction in 2004. I'm very glad you did that summary, by the way, because I have forgotten. most of this book that I put down as a really important book to me. And almost died doing it. I know. But we've got it. This is a formative influence you've said in the past. How old were you when you came across this?

I think young. I think I'm... Wait, when was it published? Well, it was 2004 that it was long-listed. So, yeah. I think I was like 13 or 14 when I read it or younger. Like, I could have been 12. I don't think I was probably allowed to read.

I have a lot of that. Like I was reading Stephen King's It when I was 11, just a bad parental supervision. But yeah, I think I was young. So I think this might have been like one of the first adult books that I really read. And it was sort of like my first experience of books feeling a bit more like real life. Because I guess up until that point, I'd read a lot of like middle grade fantasy, like those big series like your Harry Potter. or The Edgewood Chronicles was another series that I loved. And I do think I found my dad's thriller stash early on, like Harlan Coburn books and read those when I was too young. But I think this might have been like my first literary. I mean, I guess it's sort of literary with speculative elements. But to me it was the first time I read something that felt like more real life, she says in inverted commas, because it's about time travelers.

wife. But I think that's why I remember it so vividly because I was like, oh, you don't have to be set in a completely different made up world where there's lots of different rules about like this stories can be about real people. And essentially, even though this book, obviously it's about time travel and paradoxes and all that stuff, but essentially it's about a relationship and like a marriage. Yeah. And it's like as much as I remember. It's sort of relatable in that way and it feels like real life. So I think that's why I cling to it as like an example of just because a book feels like real life and might be more quote unquote boring doesn't mean that it has to be. Those recognisable tropes and themes and characters that we then can see in ourselves and we can put ourselves into these worlds as well. They don't have to be so far removed from our reality.

Yeah. It's kind of, it's quite a revelation actually. Yeah. And when you did read that, say you were 12, 13, can you remember what you were like? What was going on in your worlds when this world landed? Not really. I mean, I think I'd already knew I sort of had the writer gene as it were. I'm doing this a lot.

This is obviously the thing of the day. Thank God this is a filmed podcast. Quote unquote. For those of you who are just listening. Oh yeah. Basically, picture me just doing bunny ear fingers the entire time around every single word like this as well. what was I talking about now I've been distracted what you were like when you were young

yeah I think I already knew I was going to be a writer hopefully otherwise who knows what I would have done like I remember very vividly like being on the playground even when I was like eight nine ten and other children would come up for me to write their like playtime stories so you were known as the Oracle writer I was like a pimp for stories

to the other children. That's an amazing image. But they weren't playing with me. They came over to be like, can you tell me, like, give us a scenario. Okay, the main character does this and he's fighting. And they're like, great, cool. And then they run off and go play it and just leave me to watch the creation. I know.

I was in the... I would say that I was director, though, because I was watching from afar. Oxygen it all. Not allowed to actually play, but... I was giving everyone a little sniff of my Vix. Were you? Yeah, that was my rock. Contraband.

bringing contraband into school. And everyone lining up five pence ago. I do love the smell of Vicks though. We would have been buddies. Well, you're telling some stories. You drug people with the Vick smell, get them all nice and calm and soothed by the menthol. I read that you wrote your first book at 15. Yeah, what a loser.

Not a loser. That's amazing. And it's really bad. I don't think it survived on my hard drive. I was actually getting distracted last week and looking at what I still had on my computer. and I think that book probably was on an old machine that's now dead. Thank God, because I did worry about me dying young and tragically and glamorously and someone trying to publish that post my death and, oh God, I would have haunted all of you

who read it. You're not proud of it? It's just, like, to be fair, I'm proud of young Holly for being, like, it was a full book. It was like over 100,000 words. So, like, what a keynote, like back then. I showed that I had the gumption to get to the end of a book. it's just very very like derivative of the kind of fantasy stories I was enjoying like very much about some sort of McGuffin like there's a magic sword we have to go get three parts and then defeat

all evil so right now I would be like that's very you know black and white I prefer morally grey areas now but kudos to young me for for doing it but I hope I hope it never sees the light of day or I'm going to be so upset I know that that fans of the time traveller's wife are very, very excited at a moment because of the sequel, which is publishing later this year. Wait, what? I was going to ask you if you were excited, but I feel like I've just given you an exclusive. Spot twist, you have just given me an exclusive.

I didn't know there was a sequel. Life out of order is the story of Henry and Claire's daughter. I was going to say they have a kid, don't they? Oh, yes, that will be interesting. Audrey's been working on it for 13 years. Oh, that makes sense because if the original came out in 2000, then maybe she was waiting the length of the daughter's life. I don't know.

We'll have to read it. Will you? Oh, I definitely will. That is breaking news. We'll reconvene. I'm so excited. I don't think I even ever saw the film adaptation. Or maybe I did.

Maybe it just came out a while ago. Again, I have a memory like a sieve. So even though I've listed all these books as being formative to my younger years, I can't really remember all that much about what happens. Well, let's see what you remember about your second bookshelfy book. Okay, good luck to me. is Beloved by Tony Morrison. Sorry before you came in the room.

You were like, and there's dragons in Beloved by Tony Morrison? That was me saying. Good luck with what I actually recall. I think I recall this one slightly better than Time Travel's wife. Well, first published in 1987, Beloved is Tony Morrison's best known

and widely considered her greatest work, exploring the devastating legacy of slavery. Terrible, unspeakable things happened to set at Sweet Home, the farm where she lived as a slave, many years until she escaped to Ohio. Her new life is full of hope, but 18 years later, she is still not free. Seth's new home is not only haunted by the memories of her past, but also by the ghost of her baby, who died nameless and whose tombstone is engraved with

just a single word, beloved. Now, she is Tony Morrison an established favourite here at the Women's Prize, shortlisted for Paradise in 1999, often selected by our guests. Why did you pick this one of her novels? So I read Beloved. I think I was 17, 18, and I think I was studying it in English in school. So I think I must have written an essay about it, which is why I think I recall it more than other books I might have read, because I think I must have reread it a few times. And to me, Beloved is quite hard to describe because I guess you would call it literary fiction, but it's also kind of speculative, but like subtly and groundedly, like there's a ghost. Yeah.

And I do love ghosts. And I just remember, I think this is probably the first time I was reading a book and just bowled over by the prose by like how much of a master Tony Morrison was with words. Like read a paragraph and then have to sit back and be like, wow. Yeah. And not in a way that took you out of the book, although I was studying it for an essay, so I think it's okay. I probably read it first to read it and then probably went through very like semantically and analytically. But the way that she could make you feel or attempt to feel how these characters are feeling was like, I think a revelation to me of being like, oh, okay, now this is a writer.

and I remember like lots of probably very technical complicated narrative tricks that she's doing like it's a third person omniscient narrator but it sort of slips between some of the characters and this might be me misremembering

so I apologise if it is but I seem to remember she's so masterful at the way the perspective shifts it would be like Sether will be in a scene with Paul D, I think was the character and they would touch in the scene somehow and that would transfer the narrative voice from Sether to Paul D

and it was just so in the way that it like it just knew exactly what it was doing it wasn't formulaic, you know it slips between the present and the past all the time if I remember correctly, all of this caveated with if I remember correctly. No, you're spot on

I reread it just last year when I was pregnant which was a strange choice. Yeah, yeah considering what happens in that book, it's a absolutely, very strange. But the same experience of just, how are you writing like that? But it's never getting the way of reading it.

If anything, it gets you into it so much more. Yeah. And yeah, I was just thinking like another writer, a weaker writer could have taken this and been really formulaic with like present day, now we go to the past. And the way that Tony Morrison was able to like weave them together, so that sometimes you're in a scene and there'll be like, I don't know, a sight or a smell

that reminds the character of something in the past and then it rips you back into there. I think A, just made the reading experience so, like it felt like you were almost in a stream of consciousness. You didn't have to be like, okay, present chapter, past chapter. And I think helped with the theme of, you know, like the past, just trying to forget that something happened isn't a way to move on

and you sort of have to like reckon with what happened in order to hopefully become a more developed character and move on and hopefully find some semblance of happiness. And I just thought everything about it was so considered. Like, again, I might be wrong. I think this is right. I think the very first word of the book, I think, is 1-2-4, which is the house they live in. And it says something like 1-2-4 was quiet or loud or something, which I'd look this up. And I remember thinking, obviously not on my first read, on re-reweb.

reads that I return to, it's so smart because if you know what happens in this book, there's a certain family structure and, oh no, you said it in it. That's not spoilers. One of the, one of her children, beloved has died. I don't go into necessarily how. But beloved, if you count one and two as the parents, three, beloved would have been the third member of the family and four, their child Denver is around. But because beloved is dead, three has gone. So it's only one, two, and four, left. And there's the two boys as well but they've left. Maybe I haven't described it exactly but I feel like there was something in the one two four at the start that I was like oh yeah and and when you look through knowing what you know will happen later with beloved you sort of look through and you're like oh damn it

Tony Morrison's so clever the way that she's considered like every single word every single comma has been considered. The word economy of it is exquisite and the ability to get me to understand the justification for the worst possible thing you could do. Yeah. Because of the, to describe pain in a way that is so palpable, describe horror in that way, to really explore what it means to be free in the socioeconomic political setting, but also inside oneself. And to do that, just like you say, to go between the micro, the macro, it's just, oh, it's masterful. She's the master. She quite literally is.

And I think, I believe this might have been when I was still living with my parents because I think my copy of the book is there. I need to go and rescue it and bring it into my house. But I think I remember sometimes when I was maybe writing, it might have been before I wrote a Good Girls Guide to Murder, but I do think sometimes I just went and would just pick a page at random and just read it and be like, that's what good writing is. Try and do that.

Not that I could ever do what Tony Morris. But has she been like an influence and inspiration? Yeah, I would say for sure. That book I hold like very dear as not only what it is and how it makes you feel and the characters, I think just also the slightly more nerdy and analytical side, which is just how masterful it is at things like perspective and point of view. And yeah, and making you understand a character who did what people might think is the most heinous thing. And you going, yeah, I know, but I know, I get it.

Yeah. Morrison actually once said that writing is to me an advanced and slow form of reading. And it sounds a little bit like that's something that you find as well. If you do go into a book and her book in particular and pick out a page and sort of analyze the way that she's written in your reading, you're becoming more of a writer and all of these different forms that you also can sort of master. There are such diverse influences on her writing and I'm sure in yours as well. Does it resonate with your approach to writing? I think so.

I mean, at the moment, because of the way my books have been more genre focused and their single point of view means that I haven't necessarily been able to learn the lessons that Tony Morrison taught me on perspective and point of view. But actually, I have a few future projects, which I think will be multi-POV. And I'm hoping not that I could ever come anywhere close to. what Tony Morrison can pull off. But that's where I think I will finally get to apply some of the lessons that she's taught me. And yeah, I need to go rescue my copy of the book so that I can leaf through it and just read one of her paragraphs and just be like, wow, I could never,

but I will try my hardest. This episode of Bookshelfy is sponsored by Bayleys. Bayleys is proudly supporting the 2026 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treats, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite Bailey's recipes. Well, on to another favourite here at the women's prize. Your third book, Shelfy book is Fingersmith by Sarah Waters. Shortlisted for the Wins Prize for Fiction in 2002. Have I managed to pick all books that were shortlisted?

Just ones that we love as well. Oh my God, I know. I wasn't even trying that, guys. Wasn't even trying. Fingarsmith is a tale of fraud, insanity and secrets. In 1862, Sue Trinder, orphaned at birth, grows up among London's petty thieves, finger smiths, under the rough but loving care of Mrs. Sucksby and her, quote-unquote, I'm doing the fingers as well, family.

But from the moment Sue draws breath, her fate is linked to that of an. another orphan growing up in a gloomy mansion, not too many miles away. Now, you've described this book as a work of genius. Tell us about this choice. Where does the genius lie in this novel for you? I mean, again, this is another one I must have read when I was a teenager. What year did it come out? 2002. Yeah, so I was 10 then, or 9 or 10, so I picked it up a bit later, but I think I was a teenager and I think first of all I just have a thing for like Victorian

London I don't know why I just think it's cool it's cool it's like if I could be reincarnated in would I want maybe not they didn't have like flushing toilets and Wi-Fi there'll be some things you'd have to sacrifice if I could visit for like a week I'd be happy

just like going around and anyway I'm getting carried away and being a thief I've always thought that there's something really cool about thieves. I just find something really cool about, because you know it's sort of a slightly more forgivable crime than murder.

Yeah. There's just something. Petty. It's breaking news. I find thieves cool fictional thieves, not real life thieves. Oh yeah. Robbers. Yeah, robbers. Don't say robbers enough, do we? Like there's just something about thieves that also like pirates, I think, are cool.

Even though they're objectively probably not. And they did some heinous things other than being pirates. but I find Thieves really fun. And I remember reading Finger Smith and like there was the biggest plot twist ever that I think probably I was reading this when I was a teenager and I hadn't quite, A, so obsessively started studying story and reading so widely and watching so much. So I was probably a bit more of a novice. Nowadays, it would be fun to know if it would get me, but this book got me, the plot twist. I was like, oh, couldn't breathe.

I was like, oh, you Wiley Minks, you got me with that one. It was such. And I actually think this book didn't just have one big major plot twist where everyone goes like, shut up. I think it had two of them. And I think it pulled them off expertly. And I just remember being like,

oh, I love people going on some sort of heist and then all backstabbing each other. It's perfect. It's kind of like Victorian set, Oceans 11. Yeah. And that setting is like a character in itself. Like Victorian London, like you say, it's explored and it's cool.

What is it about Sarah Woodson's historical world building that is so immersive and transporting? I mean, I have so much respect for people who will write historical set stuff because sounds like a lot of work to me. It's a lot of research. Yeah, like so much because I guess in any given sentence you're applying your 21st century brain I mean, the obvious stuff is obvious. Like, they don't have mobile phones. But I feel like just in general you might be talking about, like, I don't know, the shelves are made of walnut.

And then you might be like, wait, did we import walnut? Yeah, I'm going to have, like, the amount of research and second guessing you must have to go through in order to pull that off. But I'm so thankful that other authors are willing to do that for me. I don't know that I could write a historical. But, yeah, I think you can just tell the level of. detail that's gone into essentially every single description and paragraph because she's probably had to research it. And I think it really, it really does like transport you to that setting, which is so important to this book. But again, as I said, I've got a soft spot for Victorian London.

So I love, I recently, I did such a nerdy thing. I watched, um, okay, this is going to make me look like such a weirdo, but I've done it now. Don't worry about that. There's these video games called Assassin's Cree, where they're set in like various times in history and there's one in Victorian London. But I watched a YouTube video that's not someone playing the game like the missions, it's someone just walking around how they've rendered Victorian London and saying like, well, this is, you know, this station and here's some facts and oh, the postbox would have been green, not read at the time. And it was like three hours long of this video. and I just watched a fake assassin walking around Victorian, London, England. The whole thing? Yeah, the whole thing.

I put it on double speed, though. I'm a double speeder. That's what is there. It's there to be watched. Exactly. Those people watching it. I don't know. To be honest, it was a pretty popular video.

So it's like if I've got that weird niche, then other people have the same. Definitely. I could be doing worse. Hey, a lot of people have that. And I wouldn't even call it a weird niche. It's absolutely fascinating. And the book has a bit of a cult. following. How have you found the fandom around a good girl's guide to murder? I love them.

It's a pretty cool thing. I think hopefully touch wood, knock on word, I think that my readers just happen to like really be cool. I don't think I deserve them, but they are really like, they get it. And often I say that when I'm writing a book, and this is the truth, I'm writing. I'm writing, it for me really. I'm writing something that I would love to pick up and read now or would like to have picked up and read as a teenager or even, yeah, I'm selfish now. I'm like, this is what I want to read, so I'm going to write it. And I'm really fortunate that so many people seem to also enjoy the same things that I do from a book or want to explore the same kind of elements that they don't necessarily see already in fiction.

Like, when I wrote a Good Girls Guide to Murder, there wasn't a lot of like procedural crime fiction based around a teenage girl. And I do, I think a lot of the time, the interests of teenage girls are looked down upon by other people. And I think they're stupid because I think, if anything, teenage girls, they go through something. They're the smartest. They're the smartest.

And being a teenage girl, I think, prepares you for life in a way. It hardens your soul. And so, yeah, I think I'm writing for all of them. That's not to say that you only have to be a teenage girl to read my books. I actually think I am pulling this statistic out of my ass. There is absolutely no, I have no backing for this. I think maybe the majority of my readers are actually women in their 20s and 30s, as well as the teenage contingent.

So I think there is a universality in wanting to see the slightly more morally grey, like allow women and girls to be unlikable and make bad choices like men have been allowed to do in fiction. Here I am on my soapbox. Like men have been allowed to do in fiction forever. And you have gone from in your pyjamas, creative and disgusting,

writing something for yourself that you, you know you enjoy. How validating is it to know that actually you're not alone. There's a lot of people want to read that. A lot of people want to have those conversations. They want to devour those stories. Yeah. Thank goodness. Otherwise I'd have to find another job and I have no applicable skills. I don't know what I would do. But yeah, I am very lucky that there are, there seem to be a whole bunch of weirdos who like the same stories as me. So I hope you will stay weird and I will keep working hard. Well, let's find out about another story that you like. Your fourth book, Bukes, which is My Sister, the Serial Killer.

I remember this one because I only read it recently. There we go. A Yon Kerrathaway. This is brilliant. This is yet another Women's Prize shortlisted author. This is from 2019. Great choices. When Correde's dinner is interrupted one night by a distressed call from her sister Ayola,

Correida knows what is expected of her. Bleach, rubber gloves, nerves of steel, and a strong stomach. This will be the third boyfriend, Ayula's dispatched in, quote, self-defense, and the third mess that her lethal little sibling has left Corrida to clear away. She should probably go to the police for the good of the menfolk of Nigeria, but she loves her sister and, as they say, family always comes first. Until, that is, Ayula starts dating the doctor where Corrida works as a nurse. Corrida's long been in love with him and isn't prepared to see him wind up with a knife in his back,

but to save one would mean sacrificing the other. Oh, it's a great twisty, plotty book. Tell us why you've chosen this novel. I just love the drama. I don't know if you would classify. I guess it's a satire. It is funny. I love books which have murder and are also funny.

There's something that feels almost like melodrama about it to me. And, you know, elements would be introduced. like, oh, I think I know where this is going. And then when it would happen, I'd be like, see, I told you? But I was just really invested. And I just, I felt like the main character really felt accessible in the way that hopefully none of us would be made to. I'm not casting judgment. Most of us don't have the experience of our youngest sister calling us up and saying, I've killed another one. Can you help me get rid of him? But the way that the main character Karidi was just felt so relatable that like as someone with a young sister we've never done any murders

together by the way just disclaimer just in case the police are listening I never have and neither has she we give these um sort of prompts whenever we get guests on on the show and um you know it's like oh a book you return to a book that's a comfort read a book that you recommend this one is a book that feels personal in your life and you chose this and I was like I saw your notes I was like Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, it gave me so many good tips for covering up my crime and my sister helped me. No, there haven't been any murders yet from my behalf. But this one, I just had a real blast reading it.

And there are sometimes, like I read a lot. And even if I'm not necessarily enjoying a book, I'm not much of a, what do they call it, a DNFer, did not finish. I can't. I feel terrible. I feel too terrible. Yeah, I have to get to the end. Like, even if I'm reading so slowly and it's ruined my love for reading for a good few months, I will get to the end. I'm not a quitter. And I've had a bit of a bad reading year because I was stuck. I'm not going to obviously say which book it is, but I was stuck on this like heavy, hard science fiction trilogy that put me off for a while. And then this is the book that I read a few weeks after that. And I was like, oh, that was such a breeze. This is. so fun. Like, reading is fun again. I remember. I remember. So, yeah, I just, I really enjoyed it.

And I just loved the humour. Like, there were a few times where I was like snorting to myself because I was like, yes, this is hilarious. Murder is funny. That dark humour. And it's interesting you mentioned the melodrama of it because it's set in Nigeria. It's Nollywood. It's giving Nollywood at times.

And there were some characters who, I don't know if you would call them caricatures, but they were definitely like a heightened version of what they were. and yeah, it did sort of feel like a soap opera, but so delicious, so brilliant. As a writer of crime fiction yourself, I'm quite intrigued as to what you would do faced with Corode's dilemma. It's tricky, isn't it? Because this book has like two of my absolute weak spots, which is relationships with sisters. I love books with like deep relationships with sisters and murder, which is, Which is funny.

Which way are we going to go? So, like, I know that the main character does face a sort of moral conundrum. And, like, I'm with the main character as she's starting to question her sister and think, is this really self-defense. This isn't adding up. And then, obviously, the doctor that she's fancied for years, her little sister comes into work, catches his eye. And then the inevitable is, oh, no, they're going to get together.

And then she, so I'm with the main. character as she's going through this journey but in the end I was like yeah but that's your sister so actually the way that the book ends I was really into it I was like I don't think I could have ended it any other way I don't think I would have wanted any other ending to just come back it basically the the story sort of does a hero's journey where the main character goes through these steps like recognizes what her sister is tries to go on a journey maybe change it she actually end up right where she started, having changed a bit and accepted that now she's in this cycle and there's not much she can do about it because when she tried to intervene, it went terribly.

And I just sort of love the, it's sort of like a bittersweet, hopeful-ish moment. I just, I love it. Well, bittersweet, thanks to that dark humour, that sort of satirical commentary about the patriarchy as well. And you've spoken in the past about being inspired by true crime. this book certainly borrows from this. How do you feel about criticisms of true crime as viacistic or problematic? I mean, I'm very aware. I consume a lot of true crime.

Well, actually not for a while, but in previous years, like when I'm out walking the dog or whatever, I'll be listening to a true crime podcast. And it certainly has fed into a lot of my books, particularly the reappearance of Rachel Price, which sort of has a critique about true crime. and us seeing it as entertainment and not realizing that it's real lives behind it. I mean, I have conflicting opinions because I guess there is something in the fact that so much of us want to consume true crime.

And again, I'm pulling another statistic out of my bum from nowhere. But I feel like a lot of the people who consume true crime are women. So there is part of me that wonders, is it not necessarily just for entertainment? Is there an element of almost like self-preservation, like listening to what is the worst that can happen so you can sort of prepare or spot the signs? Sometimes fiction and real life pretty interchangeable. Exactly.

Real life feels wilder than fiction and vice versa. Yeah, there could be. Yeah, true crime sometimes I'm like, if I wrote that in a book, no one would believe that. They'd say this is unrealistic. They'd say you need to tone that down a bit. Exactly. So I'm very aware that there are,

there is that like anxiety about true crime as entertainment. And when I talk about true crime having inspired elements of my books, I would never like exactly say which case is because I'm very aware that those are real people with real families. And they're not, you know, they're not for me to draw inspiration from. For me, it's more like the procedural around it, like how police deal with a certain case that I sort of borrow from. But yeah, I mean, all that to say that I'm aware that there's an uncomfortable line. I haven't got the answer for you, other than maybe there is something deeper in the urge to watch true crime that isn't just entertainment. Yeah, and it sounds like there's certainly something to learn.

We've arrived at your fifth and final book shelfy pick now. I've even forgotten what book I picked. It's The Hunger Games. Oh, the Hunger Games. Classic. It's the Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins, one of the most popular Y.A. book series of all time with a 2012 film adaptation, of course, starring Jennifer Lawrence. Hunger Games is widely considered a classic of modern dystopian fiction. Twelve boys and twelve girls are forced to appear in a live event called The Hunger Games.

There is only one rule, kill or be killed. When 16-year-old Katnice Everdeen steps forward to take her younger sister's place in the games, she sees it as a death sentence. But Katniss has been close to death before. For her, survival is second nature. It feels really fitting to have an iconic YA series. as your list, on your list, given your own writing. Why is this your go-to recommendation?

Because it's the Hunger Games. I don't know what to say beyond. I just love this book and this franchise. And I think, I think again, you know, when I said about people look down on the interests of teenage girls and often, but I think that also sort of applies to why a fiction. A lot of people will look at it as though it's lesser somehow than adult fiction. Even though as someone who writes both, I actually think writing YA is harder because teenagers are paying attention when they read. Unlike adults sometimes who are just half paying attention thinking about taxes in the back of their mind.

I never think about taxes. But so I worry that a lot of people think that YA fiction isn't always somehow less than. And The Hunger Games, I have to say, is like a perfect A. Z. Oh my God, Z. I'm turning American. I literally am turning American sometimes. But you're talking about the Hunger Games. Yeah, it's forgivable, guys. And I said trunk earlier as well, I'm sure. Instead of boot. Yeah. I really am. I don't sound American because I write American these days. My vocabulary is changing. I know it's terrible. I'll go home and read a thesaurus. But you have very much picked yourself up on it. Yeah, I know. I don't let it go.

I am nothing but self-critical. The Hunger Games is is perfectly structured. And novels don't necessarily have to be as tightly structured as a TV show or a movie. But I very much approach writing my books as a screenwriter. Like I think in a four-act structure, I make sure that my midpoint twist hits around the 50% mark. I'm very upset if it's more than like 3% either way. I'm very strict that way. And I think that The Hunger Games is so.

such a great example of what, like, tightly plotted, like, act structure, what it can do in a story. And sort of, if people think that sticking to the three-act structure, you worry that your book is going to be formulaic or boring, I just point to the Hunger Games and be like, no. That was new. That was novel. Like, that completely changed publishing forever because of how amazing and different it was. It sticks to the three-act structure, like, within a percentile. It's, like, perfect. perfectly structured. So for me, yes, it's sort of like a nerdy macro thing that I love that it is such a well-structured book. And yet it's so new and exciting. And like, yes, within that

structure, it still feels like a breath of fresh air or did. It was, I will remind you, it was the first of its, not the first of its kind, but it set off a wave of other dystopian Y.A. books, but The Hunger Games is the original of my heart and soul. It completely reset expectations of what YA fiction could be and explore. I don't think that YA books, again, pulling this out of nowhere, but I don't think that we could just liberally kill off teenagers so much until... Until... Until...

Until Suzanne came and paved the way for us. Yeah, the fact that we could then in Y.A. explore violent, politics. It pushed boundaries. Emotional depth. Yeah. And I'm glad those boundaries got pushed because... I do a lot of boundary pushing as well in YA fiction. So I'm glad that Suzanne was there to pave the way. She did.

But on top of just it being structurally really impressive, I also think that Katness herself as a protagonist is a breath of fresh air where a lot of their YA fiction of that time really didn't do complicated girl main characters. They really weren't allowed to have flaws and be messy and make mistakes. other than, oh, she's clumsy.

Like, that's not a character flaw. That's just, like, we're all clumsy. Whereas Katniss for me, like, in the first book, the complicated choices that she makes, and she's selfish at times, and she has PTSD, and she makes bad choices, like throughout the series, not just the first book. And to me, I think that A was something else

that was such a boundary pusher that we hadn't really seen in Y-Fiction up to that point. And as someone who only wants, to write messy female protagonists who make bad choices and are selfish and are unlikable at times because it's more fun. Yeah. Like there's so much that I don't think I'd be able to get away with it. I mean, I still get a lot of criticism for it.

But I think that Katnais Everdean paved the way for that sort of protagonist. And I'm very happy that she did. Thank you to Suzanne Collins. Thank you for yourself. She was also very heavily involved in the film adaptation of The Hunger Games. How has the TV adaptation process been for you? You sort of mentioned the difference between a day on set versus a day spent writing.

Yeah. I mean, for me, season one was slightly different because I wasn't writing it. So I was an exact producer, so I would get sent the scripts and I would give notes on them. They weren't necessarily always done. So the finished product is not something that I would say is how I would have adapted it.

and if fans feel that it's different from the book, know that I tried behind the scenes a lot, a lot. I tried a lot to gear it to something that, you know, I wanted to see as an adaptation. So with season one, it was a steep learning curve in that regard. But I sort of used all that to maneuver my way in season two so that I'm the one writing it. So season two is exactly like my vision of what an adapt.

is and should be because I wrote all of it. But, and that's not to say it's exactly what the book is because I think adaptations do need to be different from the book because if you just think, if very simple terms, Pip spends a lot of time researching stuff on her computer. Can't watch that. It would be so boring. It would literally be so boring. So you have to come up with ways of making scenes in real life and create new obstacles and think, okay, how can we turn this into a set piece that has like an action sequence?

So for me, I think season two is incredibly faithful to the book. Like there's exact lines and scenes taken exactly from the book. But I've had a lot of fun of bringing it to life in a way that the book couldn't ever be. Like, we don't necessarily just follow Pipp's perspective. We follow another character that I would never be able to do in the book. Yeah, it goes both ways. It opens doors as well. Yeah.

Which to me, I don't think, feels like it's straying away from the book. It's sort of what could have been going. on in the book? We just don't know because we weren't privileged to that point of view. So yeah, I've had a lot of fun and hopefully managed to keep in a few surprises, even though it is just the same as the book. I've kept a few little twists in there to keep readers on their feet. When you're writing books now, are you thinking in the back of your mind or what this could be if it was on screen? I sort of, I guess it's not necessarily that perspective, but I've always written all of my books with the film movie structure, like 3X structure, in mind.

I don't think about them in like episodes, like, oh, that's where you would end episode one. But I guess I do naturally try to end my chapters with a cliffhanger. And often those are the parts that you repurpose as an end of episode hook. So it's not that I am picturing it and thinking, oh, how would I adapt this? It's just that to me, the story is the story. And even though I'm writing it as a book, it's the same way I would probably structure it. if I were now writing an original movie or a TV show. So, yeah, another thing is that now every time I think of the characters from a Good Girls Goat to Murder,

I am picturing the actors. Of course. I can't picture anything else. Because you've seen them. You've seen them in the flesh. They have a basis. I know. Pip is just MMI as to me. I can't undo that.

It's done now. Done deal. But you are still writing for the page at the point of writing it. Yeah, for sure. Writing books is different than writing screenplays. I get in a lot of trouble when I say writing screenplays is actually easier than writing books. They have to do a similar level of work beforehand, but when it comes to actually writing on the page,

books are having to do so much more. Like we talked about with Tony Morrison, like you have to completely take readers on a journey and the sentences have to sound good and they have to make the reader feel the thing. That is so much harder than just writing, Pip cries. And then letting MMI as the actors do all the work for me in crying.

And the way that humans work is when you see a human upset, your mirror neurons are firing and you start to feel upset. Because you see a human being upset. Like TV, at least from my part in the TV show, that's easier for me because I don't have to do that heavy lifting. I put it in the script. The actor and the director are the ones that have to make it work. When is the book, I am.

am the actor, the director and the writer. I have to do all of that work. And the set creator. I'm, yes, God, I've got so many jobs. The world building, which we've actually talked about in all of the books that you've brought to, I mean, particularly in Victorian London, for example. Oh, I love it. If you're writing a script, you don't have to worry about creating that so palpably. And my scripts are very lean on that as well. When other scripts, people will describe their characters more like what they're wearing. You can tell with my scripts, I don't care. I'm like, unless it's, you know, unless it's, you know, it's plot important, I literally don't mention clothes.

I talk about feelings and they're in Pip's bedroom. Literally never, I'd never describe a room. So yeah, that's not even down to me. Obviously, as a producer, I can then be like, oh, let's change the costume. Well, let's see what we've got. But, yeah, script-wise, I'm very much focused on, like, feelings. It's other people's job to do all that other stuff. Well, it's your job now to choose one book as a favourite from your five bookshelfy picks a day.

That's so mean. I know. You can't do that. I'm going to. The Hunger Games is in there. That's too basic for me to pick. You just described it. It's hard as well because the order does kind of affect how you might feel about them.

I'm going to have to pick Tony Morrison's beloved because I think that's like the most special book. And I feel like I read it at a time and it taught me. Oh, it's so difficult. It sounds like they've all taught you so much actually. They have. I've selfishly picked the books that I think made me. want to become a writer and hopefully made me better at it. Which is a really great approach to this.

Yeah, but it's not necessarily what you asked for. So sorry. Take them all if you want to take them all. I've taken your homework assignment and I've changed it to what I wanted. But yeah, I think I pick beloved. But then obviously followed by the Hunger Games. Oh, God. Sorry, Suzanne.

I'm sorry to have made you do that. Yeah, that really is your fault. But I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Well, thank you so much for having me. Oh, thank you. Such a lovely time. It's been lovely. Thank you.

Thank you. Let's both get back to being creative and disgusting. And disgusting. Emphasis on the disgusting. I'm Vic Hope and that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize, supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books that we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org shelf where every purchase supports independent bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust, a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing.

Now remember to hit the follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you liked this one, then leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. I'll see you next time.