Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S9 Ep9: Bookshelfie: Emma Grede

Episode Date: May 5, 2026

Pioneering businesswoman Emma Grede defends the work-life balance honesty which has ignited recent online debates, and shares her passion for getting more women talking about money and power. Emma is the Co-Founder and CEO of Good American, a B-Corp certified brand setting new standards for inclusivity in fashion, and a Founding Partner of SKIMS, now valued at $4 billion and recognised as one of the world’s most influential apparel brands. She also serves as Chairwoman of The Fifteen Percent Pledge, leading real systemic change to support Black-owned businesses. She’s the first female judge of colour on ABC’s Shark Tank, a guest investor on the UK’s Dragon’s Den and host of her incredibly successful podcast Aspire with Emma Grede.Emma also invests deeply in young people in the UK, recently announced as an ambassador for The King’s Trust, joining their Destination Unknown campaign to help young people into employment. Earlier this year, she visited her old school in East London and hosted a workshop with Milk Honey Bees, inspiring young Black girls through creativity, entrepreneurship and self-expression.Her debut book, Start With Yourself is a bold, no-BS guide to building meaningful success on your own terms. Part memoir, part playbook, it’s packed with the mindset and tools that helped Emma defy the odds to become a serial entrepreneur, co-founder of culture-defining global brands, and non-profit champion – all while raising four children.Emma’s book choices are: ** The Faraway Tree series by Enid Blyton**Mindset by Carol Dweck**What I Know For Sure by Oprah Winfrey**Daring Greatly by Brené Brown**Lean In by Sheryl SandbergYou can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

Coming up on bookshelfy. What I have is like a huge love of reading. I am a lifelong lover of books. And I use books like as a tool in my life to take me out of whatever it is that I'm in, to kind of take me into another world as a means of escapism and almost like a meditation. The question that you're asked time and time again when you're a successful woman is, how do you do it all? How do you juggle it?

How do you balance it, Emma? Like some imagination that I've created a 25th hour in the day. the more useful question is what don't I do? What am I not doing? What are the things that I have outsourced or I've relinquished or that I just don't partake in? No sooner do I imagine that every single person is going to love a good American skinny gene than I imagine every single person's going to love the book.

No sooner do I imagine that everybody wants to walk around with a nipple bra than I imagine they're going to agree to everything in the book. We have choice. Thank God we've got there as women. You choose your choice. Hello, I'm Vic Hope and this is Bookshelfy, the podcast from the Women's Prize that asks women, with lives as inspiring as any fiction, to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Now, before we begin, remember to subscribe or follow so you never miss an episode with thanks to our sponsor, Bayleys. Today I'm joined by Emma Greed. As a pioneering British businesswoman, Emma has broken barriers worldwide.

She's the co-founder at CEO of Good American, a B-Corp certified brand, setting new standards. for inclusivity in fashion, and a founding partner of Skims, now valued at $4 billion, and recognised one of the world's most influential apparel brands. She also serves as chairwoman of the 15% Pledge, leading real systemic change to support black-owned businesses. She's the first female judge of colour on ABC's Shark Tank, a guest investor on the UK's Dragon's Den, and host of her incredibly successful podcast Aspire with Emma Greed. Emma also invests deeply in young people in the UK, recently announced as an ambassador for the King's Trust, joining their destination unknown campaign to help young people into employment.

Earlier this year, she visited her old school in East London and hosted a workshop with milk honeybees, inspiring young black girls through creativity, entrepreneurship and self-expression. Her debut book, Start With Yourself, is a bold, no-borship guide to building meaningful success on your own terms. part memoir, part playbook. She's packed with mindset and tools that helped Emma defy the odds to become a serial entrepreneur, co-founder of culture-defining global brands and non-profit champion, all while raising four children. Welcome to the podcast, Emma. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Just while we're outside getting a cup of tea, which, by the way, you like strong, you keep the bag in. If anyone didn't know that about Emma Grudge, she keeps the bag in. I've got to keep the bag in, base. It's been a long couple of weeks. And we were talking about, you'd met some women, I think, from where you grew up. From Forest Gate while I was in Atlanta. While in Atlanta. Nutt.

It was so crazy to me. One had traveled and one was living in Baltimore. And I, you know, as soon as you hear that accent, I'm like, hang about. And my team had come to get me. And they said, you know, there's some girls here that are from, they said they're from your ends. And as soon as I heard that, I was like, they must be. So I'm going to go and say hello. What is it about when you've flown the less, you've left and you've created an empire,

you've built so much success. What is it about hearing that accent and hearing that little slice of home that still feels so important and special and poignant? You know, I love that you frame it that way because it is so important and special and poignant. And there's something to me, like, you know, so much of where I'm orientating my energy right now

is around how do you take a bunch of people that you would never, ever envisage, would do and have that journey and give them the tools and give them the ability to see them, themselves that way. And so I'm very aware that my journey and what I've done has become inspiring to some people. But inspiring is not enough. I would like, I like movement. I like actual impact. And so as soon as I like see someone, hear someone, A, I want to get their questions. I want to have

a level of honesty with them. And I want to help. I want to have been able to look back and see my success as a catalyst for something else. And so that's kind of where my head's at right now. I'm really, I'm really thinking that through in everything I do, both in the book, start with yourself, but also in my podcast and every other touch point within my business and what I'm trying to do. Well, talking of impact, I've been reading your book. Thank you. As soon as I picked it up, my algorithm was full of emigree. Should I say sorry?

No, no, no, no. It's an amazing thing. I'm like, is this the most exquisite marketing tool I've ever seen? Like, how does it know? These are not necessarily talk shows that I follow. And yet here we are. I want to talk about the discourse, because discourse is this quite new phenomenon,

this new concept where you are doing the podcast, the interviews, they're taking clips, and people are having conversations with each other about things that you've said. They may not have even read the book. It becomes bigger than that. It goes beyond that. Everyone's chatting to each other.

They're debating. They're sometimes arguing. Are you aware of that? Are you inside it? Are you reading it? Or do you just say, okay, I'm going to have this conversation? put it out there and then you can all do what you want with the things that I'm saying with the points that I'm making.

You know, I think it's a mixture of both. There's definitely an awareness of it. I'd be crazy to say that I don't have an awareness. But I also, like, I don't involve myself, right? It's like I'm not in the comments. I'm very busy. I've been on like a three-week kind of promotional tour for this book. We've toured all across America.

It has been non-stop. You know, I've been on every morning show, every news show, doing the rounds on the podcast. So there's a huge awareness of it. But, you know, my point of view is that I don't want to say I don't care what people think. I just don't place a very high value on it. You know, I think other people's opinion of you is not your business. Do you know what I mean? And so to me, I'm very happy for the chatter because it means, you know, I'm a New York Times bestseller. I'm a Sunday Times bestseller. And I created this book very much as a conversation starter. I wanted something that people could use, not that they could just read. And so I think

the very notion that people are having conversation about this is making people think. You will always have people that don't think. They take a 30 second clip and then they react to the clip. But I think what I'm seeing for the most part is really intelligent conversation, really interesting thought, thought-provoking dialogue that I think is really healthy in culture. And so I am, I'm excited about it more than anything else. You know, I don't take anything personally because I don't think it's about me. My book is about my journey. What people choose to do with it is their own business.

And why did you want to write it? Why were you ready? You know, I was ready because I, there's two reasons. Number one is because wherever I go, people ask me. They want to understand my success. But I don't think they're so interested in me. They want to understand how they can do it for themselves. I also think that there is an idea out there that perhaps when you,

are on Instagram that maybe you're not, like, you know, I sit at my desk, I'll take a photo. I'm like, they do understand that there's something on my laptop and I'm actually on the phone. You know what I mean? It's not just a setup. I am in the office like, you know, five days a week. And so, which I've, you know, I've said a million times. And so I thought it was important to talk about the journey because people have known me for the last couple of years.

The reality is I've had a job since I was 12 years old. And so I really think that it's important to do. demystify what seems like very, very quick success and talk about what it actually takes because I think that a lot of the information that's out there isn't as useful and as helpful to people as it should be. Well, we're going to talk about the books that have shaped you, that have impacted you as you've kind of played that forward with your own. And we go right back with your first one.

Your first bookshelf you pick is the Far Away Tree Series by, you know, Blightinghouse is expecting this. It's so, so, so good. First of all, I think there are like five or six books in the series and I've read all of them. But this is like, I had to try to backtrack and go, when did I read this? I remember being in Kerwin Primary School. So I was, you know, under the age of 11. Maybe it was like 8, 9, 10 when I read these books. And, you know, I've said it a lot of times, but I am really severely dyslexic. And so when I got those books, they were, you know, they were big. books they were chapter books you kind of went you know that was like the stage of reading where you'd kind of grown up a little bit and I remember struggling and yet I was so enamored by the story so taken with the characters that I would do anything to kind of get my way through it and I think and I was so happy to get your you know your list of books that you wanted like I think that that might have given birth to my love of reading like that that was one of the first things because it was so mystical and so

magical and so like you could really even now I'm like I can see what I saw thinking about those books yeah and it was so interesting that might have given birth to my like what I have is like a huge love of reading I am a lifelong lover of books and I use books like as a tool in my life to take me out of whatever it is that I'm in to kind of take me into another world as a means of escapism and almost like a meditation and it could and I'm pretty sure so started there. This book really is, and this series really is an escape. It is. It is mystical. It's magical.

First published in 1939. Was it 1939? And don't worry, we weren't there. We're not looking back to that. Wow. Unbelievable. But it's crazy to think that that was like, yeah, in like the 30s. That's crazy. 39. The Enchanted Woods is the first story in the Magic Faraway Tree

series by Enid Bighton, one of the world's loved children's authors. So we've got Joe, Beth and Franny. They find the enchanted wood on the doorstep of their new home. And when they discover the faraway tree, they fall into all sorts of adventures. Alongside their friends, Moonface, Solespan Man. Sourcepan Man.

That's the one I remember. Sourcepan Man. How could you not conjure up like a whole idea of saucepanman as soon as you see him? That's crazy. I mean, I like thinking about Moonface. We've got Silky the Fairy as well. They discover which new land is at the top of the faraway tree.

I'm laughing because my nickname from my sisters is Moonhead. And so I think that that's like really interesting. I wonder if it started. I wonder if it started there. What little bitches? Now you're thinking, why are you calling me moonhead? I think they just think I have a big fat face and that's just, you know, what your sisters do to you. Well, at least my brothers used to call me elephant seal because they said it was the most ugly animal and every time I went past they go,

I mean, come on, you are the most beautiful creature. What on earth are they talking about? This is what makes us ambitious. There you go. This is what gives our drive. That's what we needed. That's what we needed. A bunch of siblings putting us down on a daily.

Exactly. The Faraway Tree series remains a culturally iconic collection and it's recently been adapted for films. Are you thinking you probably read these when you're about 10, 11? Yeah, I think so. I know that I was in primary school because I could take myself back to that school library. And I remember there being a set

because I was in a school in a very impoverished area and so the books were like gold dust and everything was labelled. And if you were naughty, you would have to work, which I was. you would have to work in the library during playtime and lunchtime to like relabel books and put the numbers. And if there were books missing from the numbers on the shelves, like you would be on the phone, like, hounding those people being like, your kid has to bring the book back. Oh, responsibility. And it was a huge responsibility of which I took really seriously because that school library for me was, it was everything. That was a means of escapism.

You know, it wasn't, now I have rooms full of books in my house. I have, you know, like a reference library that I've made. meticulously put together. But back then, like, you didn't have a lot of books. And the books you took from the library were so precious and meant so, so, so much. And so, yeah, I just remember that being like a magical time and you'd have to finish one before you were allowed the next. And I'd be like, oh, my goodness, like, here it is.

And they'd be like, you haven't read that whole thing. And I was like, no, I have. I promise you. And so you'd have to do like a little comprehension test on it. And then, you know, prove you'd read the book and then you'd come back for the next one. It's so cool. Take me back to 10, 11-year-old and agreed. Can you paint the picture?

and why was escape through books something that you felt you needed? You know, where I grew up, it was just a bit miserable. And that isn't to say I didn't have a wonderful childhood because there were parts of my childhood that were really wonderful. But there was also just like a lot of danger, a lot of depression, so a lot of drugs and alcohol around. And that was, you know, back then there wasn't the same level of like sort of protection around kids. You know, it was just like the kids had to get on with it.

You were out, you were in the streets every day, and so you saw a lot. And my mum went to work all day. You know, she'd leave at seven, she was back at seven. So I looked after my sisters. I did parent-teacher conferences. I was the one who was very responsible for the family. And so that just weighed very heavily on me. I didn't experience it like that as a kid.

I just got on with what I was asked to do. Like, do you know what I mean? The living room needed hoovering, the dinner had to get on, the school shirts needed washing. So you just did. But I think that there was, for me, books became like, and later magazines actually, sort of like this layer of protection. It allowed me to dream and they allowed me to see things in a world that I wasn't experiencing.

And so I think I used books and magazines in some way that people would like the movies, you know, as a means of escapism for me. And those dreams that you had back then, did they remain steadfast as you started to put into motion the ways of getting out? as you found your ambition and your drive, are they the same dreams that you have now? Or did they shift? I think they shifted a lot. You know, I've always been somebody that,

like, I'm a very dissatisfied person. As soon as I've got the things, you know, I'll be really honest with you. I'm like, I'm what? I'm number two on the New All Times Best Seller list. It's like, I wanted a one. And they're like, are you insane? Like, most people never get to that.

It's like, I just like, that's who I am. I am really ambitious and unapologetic about it. but I'm like hardwired to push myself. And so whatever I do, I'm looking over there for the next thing. I am really someone who stops to celebrate. Like I'm a celebration person. I can have like, you know, a new flower come up in my garden. I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe that's flowering.

Like that's amazing. That's what makes me happiest. It's a flower coming. First of all, like when the garden's gardening, like, nothing could make me happier. But I am, so it's like, yes, I stopped to smell the roses. I do take a moment to appreciate what's going on. And I think it's really important, especially when you run teams and you go from kind of week to week drops

and week to week kind of happenings in a business, it's important to stop and to pause and to recognise. And I've learned that because I don't do that naturally, I have to create the conditions for that to happen and for me to do that. So I've tried to kind of bring that into my own life. But it's something that I kind of engineer in there as opposed to something that comes naturally.

It's interesting because, as a child, I was definitely very, very driven. And as a teenager, as a 20-year-old, and I found a level of contentment started to creep in the more I healed, I guess. I always wanted what is next, what is next. And I found that starting to dissipate a little bit. And sometimes I think, oh, should I return to my dreams

or have those dreams just shifted because contentment is the goal now? do you sign i can i can tell and you say in your book i'm successful and i'm happy but contentment isn't necessarily the same thing would you say you're content? no no because my i guess my understanding and my definition of content would somehow be interlaced with stopping and like you know contentment meaning that it's like i've reached the goal and i'm happy with that no no No, I'm like a very happy person, but I'm default happy.

You know, I was happy when I had nothing. I'm like an eight on the happiness scale. You know, I wake up and I could be in the shittiest apartment in Stratford, and I'd be like, but the sun's shining. Do you know what I mean? I've got a new shoe to put on today. Like, whatever it is. Like, I will find, I used to buy, you know, like flowers from the petrol station.

That feeling of holes in them. 399 bouquet, and I would take the carnations apart and put one in a glass in the kitchen. and one in a glass in the bathroom and one in the glass in the bedroom and one in like I mean if you could call it a hallway in the hallway like do you know what I mean

it's like I will make the most of everything and I will find the joy and find the happiness but I'm not a content person that's not how I'm wired really I'm happy and I'm always kind of like

looking forward I'm always looking for the next thing you're not stopping no no I think I'm right at the beginning you know it's like I feel like I'm 43 And, you know, I believe in this idea of chapters. You know, I've had a lot of chapters in my life. And I feel like I'm entering a new chapter.

I can hard relate to that joy of the flowers of putting them one at a time everywhere that you can. Because then you're creating those corridors. A hundred percent. And that's how I felt. Like I'd be happy every time I saw a little flower. Well, it's an insight into your mindset, which brings us neatly onto your second book, selfie book, which is mindset. That's a good one.

Carol Dweck. By Carol Dweck, world-renowned Stanford University psychologist Carol Dweck explains why it's not just our abilities and talent that bring us success, but whether we approach our goals with a fixed or growth mindset. With the right mindset, we can motivate our children to raise their grades, as well as reaching our own goals, both personal and professional. Mindset reveals what all great parents, teachers, CEOs and athletes already know how a simple idea about the brain can foster learning and nurture the resilience, that is the basis of accomplishment in every area. Now, for anyone unfamiliar with the sort of key argument of this book, can you give us a sort of explain it? What is the right mindset? I mean, I don't know that there's a right mindset.

I think that what this book did for me was explain a lot that therapy or self-examination really couldn't. She gave me the language for understanding who I was. And basically, Carol's thesis is really about, you know, fixed mindset versus growth mindset. And if you have a fixed mindset, it's exactly what it sounds like, right? You believe that your abilities, what you think about yourself is finite. And a growth mindset, for all intents and purposes, is that whatever you have, you can adapt and grow it. Like, you can shift and change and your belief system is the thing that's going to take you there. And I had never really, no one had ever explained that to me, but I was like, oh, that's me.

You know, I'd always described myself as a lifelong learner, someone that was consistently in learning mode. And what I've done throughout my adult life have find things to kind of stretch myself because I read, I don't know, somewhere that, you know, if you, like, you know, we have these kind of like neural pathways and as you do new things, you basically create new neural pathways

which allows and expands your ability to learn and take in information. So I learned to swim. at the age of 40. You know, I was like, you can't have four kids and not be able to swim. That's ridiculous. So I went and learned to swim.

I learned transcendental meditation when I was in my early 40s because I needed something to help me kind of take the temperature down. And so I've always done things, silent retreats, like things that I felt were outside of what, you know, for me to be silent,

I thought it was the hardest thing I'd ever do in my whole life. I can't imagine how, like anyone I know who's gone through it, who's done it. They've said it's amazing. I'm talking, I cheat. I talk to myself in the, the mirror. I'm just like, I will have a full conversation with myself two days in. But for me,

what happened with that particular book is it, it kind of was this unlock as to how I learn, why I learn, and why I've had the ability to change some of my kind of internal wiring. I was like, oh, I have a growth mindset. That's what I have. That's what I'm armed with. And that's why I'm able to constantly move and shift and develop. And it was amazing, actually, also as a mother because it gave me, you know, anyone who's got kids will know your kids say, I can't, I don't want to. Like, you know, it's like that's always something that comes up and I'm like, oh no, you can. And so we use the idea of what it means to have the growth mindset in my home all the time.

And I think it changed my understanding of myself. It changed the way that I parent. I'm obsessed with Carol. I've tried to get her on the podcast like a hundred times. I don't know. She must be like 90 or something and she's totally uninterested. But as a person, you know, the way that we speak about mindset in this kind of like modern moment now, the last sort of 15 years, was birthed because of her research, because of this book. And so she gave birth to all of the books that we think about now as being seminar in this kind of subject area really came out of the research that she did.

And so to me, I love because she's a woman, be an incredible scientist and researcher and got a lot. lot of the credit that she should. I mean, she sold millions and millions of books, but that was a seminal work that anyone that's actually interested in the science of mindset, like has to read because it's beautifully written and it really gives you a deep understanding. It's so interesting that you mention parenting and motherhood with respect to your mindset because I found that in turn having a baby, having a child, has increased the elasticity of my own mind. Facts. And the growth mindset as it were, I'm aware of my capabilities beyond anything I'd ever imagined. And I'm sure there's so many other forums in which you could, you know, put your mind to the test in that way.

But it's so true. You're absolutely right. Because when you become a mother, there's so much that changes and so much that shifts, but so much of that is about growth. And then when you have your second child, you know, you're like, oh, I'm never going to fancy this one as much as I did the first. And all of the sudden, that changes as well. How is it possible to love more? But it keeps growing. It keeps growing. It keeps growing. much like your brain, right? It's like the more capacity that you have, the more ability, the more that you kind of opt into,

if you like, the greater capacity that you have. And so for me, that was amazing to know that that wasn't just a feeling. It wasn't just something I'd imagined. There was actual proven science. And it's one of those things. That book was like such a boost to the way that I think about myself

and the way that I think about what is possible. And that's what I think is really important. When I wrote Start with Yourself, I thought, wouldn't it be amazing to have something that increases people's ability to think about themselves and what they think is possible for themselves? You talk about old thoughts in your book. So with regards to money, finances, family, success. Networking. Yeah. Talk about the shift from old thoughts to new thoughts.

is that that's growth mindset. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I want for everybody because my point of view, and I tried to do this in the book and talk about what exists in society more broadly that became default beliefs for all of us, right? Everybody is told, like,

you don't talk about money and politics at a fun dinner party, right? You don't discuss what you're being paid with your colleague because that's outside of what is permitted in work. But what happens is that behavior, trickles into the culture at large. Oh, it's just the dumb thing, isn't it? Right, you don't talk to your best mate about it.

You don't talk to somebody else in your position. In fact, we extrapolate ourselves from conversations when it comes to finances. I have so many friends who have no idea what their mortgage rate is. They don't even know who they pay their mortgage to. They have no idea what it would mean to create an interesting or advantageous financial structure around their investment portfolio if they have that or their mortgage or their savings or their life. And so one of the things that I want to do is create conversation so that we can start to question ourselves and say, well, is that a good decision? Is that useful? Is that going to help me? You know, I remember when, you know, God rest his soul, when my granddad died, the amount of help that my nan needed from our family because she'd never been to the bank, right? We're talking about a generation of women who weren't encouraged. They outsource that information. And then they passed that down to their daughters who, who who maybe had the same experience.

It was different from my mum because she was single, so she was forced into it. And as a result, I saw my mum having no choice but to deal with money. But it was a struggle. It was never a positive experience. It was always about how we're going to make ends meet. How much have you got over there for heat,

how much for light, what's left for groceries, how are we all going to balance this? And so I came into my exposure around money in a really sort of negative, pressurised way. But I used that to say, at least let's have a baseline understanding And that's what I want for all women. I want us to talk about it.

I want us to think about money. And I want us to understand what it gives birth to and the importance of it. Because until we do that, we won't play the role that we're supposed to in society because money and power are inextricably linked. And if you don't know enough about money, then you'll never have enough power. And we need more women in positions of power. This episode of Bookshelfy is sponsored by Bayleys. Bailey's is proudly supporting the 2026 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaken in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. On the subject of dismantling the way things are or what we have come to just accept, you got a lot of people talking recently when you said that you were a three-hour mum at the weekend. For anyone who hasn't been aware or is not serially online, explain what you meant by that and how that relates to that sort of dismantling of what's expected. Totally. Well, you know, the funny thing is, I said what I said and I meant what I meant.

And I think what everybody wants is, you know, oh my goodness, like she must have meant something else. It's like, no, I wrote it down. Like this book is not an accident. This is like two years of work on 300 pages. Like, you know, as I'm speaking, I think what happens is that the offence that's taken, people think, well, is that a judgment on me. My book is about me. It's my point of view. It's how I've done things.

It's the sacrifices and the tradeoffs that I've made. And what I'm trying to do is not gaslight women. I'm trying not to be one of those people because the question that you're asked time and time again when you're a successful woman is, how do you do it all? How do you juggle it? How do you balance it, Emma? Like some imagination that I've created a 25th hour in the day. The more useful question is what don't I do? What am I not doing?

What are the things that I have outsourced or I've relinquished or that I just don't partake in? And one of them is excessive mothering is the idea that I'm supposed to usher my kids through every hour. of their day. I'm supposed to be the one that watches every ingredient, every playday, makes every little moment in their day perfect. That's not what I do. I don't believe that that is excellent parenting. So my saying that I'm a three-hour mom was about a truth of somebody that works five days a week. You go into the office. I'm exhausted when it gets to the weekend. I probably do like three hours with my kids. Then I have errands to run. I have other things to do. I want to go to the gym. And what I didn't want to do is sit there and go, well, you know what, after all of the week that I've had, the next thing that I do is build Legos.

I do an art project with my kid. I bake cookies with the other one. And then we go to the trampoline park and I do two birthday parties. Fuck, no. It's not you. That's not what I do. And I don't want to create a false expectation of what it takes to run businesses in the way that I do, live the way that I do, parent the way that I do. because that's not helpful.

That's not helpful to other women. It's really interesting. Whenever I saw any of the conversation around that, any of the discourse, I was thinking we've all put ourselves in the centre of this. And I don't think it's for me. I don't think it's for the people who are maybe reading it and feeling offended. And that's what happens when clips get taken out of context.

Yeah. And they spread like that. Because you're not talking to everyone. No. And also, here's the thing. I have never once said, like, that you have to do this. I'm talking about the way that I've done things and I'm trying to be really thoughtful about the information that I put out there because what I want are more women to be really successful. And so I'm trying to be articulate about the trade-offs because when you say I make a lot of trade-offs, that's one thing.

That's like, great. So you make sacrifices. Like let's have like specificity. Let's be like honest. Like what are the things that you trade off? You know, I'm not at the school gates. don't make the lunches. I don't iron my kids clothes. I don't do a lot of cleaning. Yes, because that comes with a lot of privilege because I'm able at this point in my life to have

a lot of help. But there were ways, you know, when my first born was born, I didn't have that. And I still didn't do all of those things. I still tried to outsource and make things make sense for me. And so, you know, what I want to be honest about is that something has to give. And I've decided where those gifts are. And you can decide for you where those gifts are. But you will have to give something if that's what you want. What I really felt came out of a lot of that was just how much society wants to shame mothers regardless of what approach they take. Yeah and and more specifically women because I think it's really interesting that you know if it were a guy no one would have an eye. No, he's asking Steve Jobs. Sorry, juggles it. But equally no one asks them. Yeah.

Equally nobody ever asks the question and you know what frustrates the life out of me that the conversation is centered around the three-hour mom as opposed to how did I build this stuff. Because why everybody is talking about that, they ain't doing the thing. They ain't building. They ain't creating value. Right. Do you know what I mean? It's like, why have we got so into that? Because that's an easy thing to talk about as opposed to some of the other things that are in the book that are harder. So I think it's a little bit like, you know, I think that when I think about how and where women spend time where men don't, whether that's on putting an outfit together,

thinking about how much we weigh or indeed arguing about whether or not a three-hour mum is a good or bad thing. I'm like, energy in the wrong place, ladies, energy in the wrong place. It would be far better to use our imaginations, to use our energy to actually get more money and be more powerful as opposed to like having a conversation and pitting women and against each other. I'm like, that's not the focus.

Please read the book. Which I feel is a great place to move on to your third book, Shelby book, which is by Oprah Winfrey. What, what, what? Oh, you mean my friend? Yeah. Oprah. It's what I know for sure by Oprah Winfrey.

It's so good. Over Winfrey is a creative force. She is a champion of living the life you want over the years. She's made history with a legendary talk show, launched her own television network, become a billionaire and being awarded both an honorary degree. from Harvard University and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Yes.

A book packed with insight and revelation from Oprah Winfrey. Organized by themes, we've got joy, resilience, connection, gratitude, possibility, awe, clarity and power. These essays offer a rare, powerful and intimate glimpse into the heart and mind of one of the world's most extraordinary women while providing readers a guide to becoming their best selves. How much has Oprah served as an inspiration? an icon to you. You can't even imagine how much. And it's so interesting because when I go back to thinking about my life in Plasto,

you know, I always have this idea and mono in my head that you can't be what you don't see. And when I was younger, there were a handful of black people on the TV. Like only a handful, though. It wasn't really like it is now. You know, we had Lenny Henry. you had Trisha, you had, like, very few, like a lot of great athletes, but like not, you know, like talking heads, Trevor McDonald on the news, like, do you know what I mean, but like very, very few. There was a handful.

And Oprah was on the TV on Channel 4 pretty much every day. So when I used to get my sisters up, I'm in the school shirts, do the pat lunches, take them to school, I'd often turn around and be like, I'm exhausted, I'm going home. So I'd bunk off school, I'd come back. And, you know, I had one of those households. If you were doing the ironing and you do some hoovering, my mom was like, whatever you want, babe. So I would stay at home and I would put Oprah on and I would watch her religiously. And for me, she was the first person that I tried to emulate.

I would try to speak how she spoke. I think that she 100% introduced me to gratitude, to mindfulness. And if you go back all of those years, they weren't common vernacular like they are now. We didn't just spout those words off. No. No. Joy is radical. Radical.

It's political. Right? And the way she spoke about it then, you were like, what? Like, what are you talking about? So from where I was, and I can see myself, iron in bald iron, in front of the TV, pile of, you know, you'd have VHS videos, and I would like tape some of the episodes. So I watched her religiously. And honestly, she's almost the reason this book is called Start With Yourself,

because she spoke about radical self-responsibility, being in America, having an understanding of, you know, systemic oppression, systemic racism, systems that keep people, you know, down. And this idea of radical self-responsibility was something that she described in such a way. And as a kid and being relatively uneducated, I was like, okay, I'm going to do that. Do you know what I mean? I was like, oh, that sounds like the right thing. And so I just started reading, consuming, watching and how. have throughout my life just followed her. And I will tell you just a really little story because I know

Gail King, her best friend. And I'd never met Oprah until like a year ago. And she walks into this party that I'm at. There's a lot of people. It's like a pre-Oskar picnic, like middle of the day. And I'm like, Gail! I don't even say hello. I'm like, Gail, introduce me to Oprah. And she's like, oh yeah, of course. Oprah! Like shouts down this thing. I then feel like I'm walking down like a corridor of silence and it's like you know everyone's people there and i have a conversation or walk up to opra and have like a non-conversation after 30 years of loving this woman i have nothing to say like nothing you were not tongue-tied no no not tongue-tied cried with sunglasses on held her hand and she was like oh and i was like oh it was so bad and so when i walk into the podcast she gets

the book she invites me on to the show and um I say, it's so nice to meet you. And she's like, I met you before. You had your sunglasses on. And I was like, I know. And I didn't mean to keep them on. And I've been in regret. And she's like, don't worry about it.

Like, I'm so happy to meet you. I was so happy I had that second opportunity because I was like, oh my gosh, I messed my whole life's ambition to meet Oprah. So I don't always manage to keep it together, that's for sure. I feel like in America. there are a lot of problems, but in terms of big in yourself up, right? Their attitude towards it is the opposite to hear in the UK. And I've heard quite a lot of friends who are black, who've gone over there for their careers,

have felt like they have been able to thrive in a way that they couldn't hear in the UK. Do you see that? Is that something you can relate to or, I mean, you're like, smashed it here. It's absolutely fine. No, you know what? I think you're right. I don't think that that is just a feeling if you're black. I think that when the platform is bigger and the ability to scale is bigger and the attitude is different.

Like, America is open for business, regardless of who you are, regardless of where you came from. There is an attitude that if you are in cremate. mode, if you are willing to put the time in, there is someone that will take a conversation with you. And so when I say open for business, I mean it in a way that I think not many other countries have created the conditions to be in that constant movement of forward motion. And that's what America has over a lot of places. So I understand why people feel like that, because there is a feeling when you get there that the world is your oyster. It's like, what next, what next, who, what, where, how. And there's someone there.

to facilitate, like everything's very operationalised. You know, when you start a company here, I remember when I started ITB, I was like, how are we doing this? I was like, you mean I have to fill out another thing? Like, it was so hard to just get a thing off the ground. I think what happens in the US, if they have sort of mechanicalized, what's the right word,

they've operationalised the way to start shit and just made it easy. Er. It's sort of the... Easier. mission to dare greatly. Yeah, for 100% sure. And then there's an infrastructure that supports that. There are finance systems that can support that. And again, it's not everybody. You still have to, you know, have a lot of luck and there has to be the right set of circumstances and timing and momentum

and the right economic situation. And so there's a lot, you know, it's not like magical, but it is more magic. That's for sure. Well, Darren greatly is your fourth book, shelfy book. It's such a good one. By Renee Brown. Such a good one. This is a big one. Every time we are faced with change, no matter how great or small, we also face risk. Now, we feel uncertain, we feel exposed, we feel vulnerable.

Most of us try to fight those feelings or feel guilt for feeling them in the first place. In a powerful new vision, Dr. Bray Brown challenges everything we think we know about vulnerability and dispels the widely accepted myth that it's a weakness. She argues that, in truth, vulnerability is strength. and when we shut ourselves off from vulnerability, from revealing our true selves, we distance ourselves from the experiences that bring purpose and meaning to our lives. Listen, smart thinking, self-help psychology books, they're obviously very important to you. They're very prominent on your list.

They've been companions to your professional career, but also it seems to your personal life. Why did you pick this one? You know, I discovered Bernay, like a lot of people, through that TED talk that she did. She had a very viral TED talk. And what's even more interesting than the talk itself was how she spoke about what happened to her after. So she did this talk. It went super viral. She's a professor for anyone who doesn't know who studies vulnerability. And she got like a lot of discourse to use the word of the moment really kind of came back at her after that.

And it was really like prevalent. People were on TV shows talking about it. Like it was in social media. It was kind of everywhere. It really kind of like upset the balance of what she understood as like her life's work. And it was particularly important because I think whenever you're doing something that is bigger than yourself, whenever you're doing something that kind of, you know, chimes with people or irks people, it kind of hits back at your vulnerability.

And when I read that book, I was going, how old was I? It was maybe, do I want to say eight years ago? I feel like it was the start of Good American, eight or ten years ago. It was around that time anyway. And I was getting a lot of criticism and a lot of critique. And so after she did the talk, she did a lot of interviews about it. And she spoke about this sort of poem that had this massive impact on her, the man in the arena. And essentially what she's saying is, you know, when you are the person who's in the arena,

you're the one doing the work, you're the one going out there and putting your vulnerable. ability out, you shouldn't accept noise from those who are simply not in the arena. And I was like game changer. Like to me that was like a lightning bolt. And I was like, oh, okay let me just get back on with doing what I'm doing. I'm the man in the arena. Facts. Like absolutely. It was so

clear to me. And of course, again, she had a very seminal interview with Oprah. The two of them like in Montecito, in garden chairs and they just spoke about it. And I was like, I was excited because She was excited to meet Oprah and I could only imagine that like, I was like, God, one day if I get to go and meet Oprah, I'm going to be exactly like Bernay was when she went there. And so I kind of read that book, listened to the press, listen to the kind of clapback, listen to her thoughts on the clapback. And I got a lot out of it. And vulnerability, again, when you come from a place like me, like where I came from, that's not an emotion or a trait that you feel comfortable sharing.

You have walls up? I was taught to have walls up. I was born with wars up. I was born with, you know, it's like I'm, I'm in defence mode the whole time, right? It's like I'm covering my face. And I actually thought that that was quite a seminal work in terms of accepting your vulnerability and learning that it could somewhat be a superpower. And I hadn't understood that. As you've got more successful, do you feel like you've been able to be more vulnerable? Or is it actually the flip side of that? And the more you put your head above the parapet, the harder it is. I would say both, which is something that I like to talk about in my book a lot. You know, it doesn't have to be either or. It can be both and. And this is a little bit both and. I am vulnerable because I think it's more helpful for people to understand my vulnerability and the way that it helps to move into situations. But I am so much more guarded with the people that get real access to me. So I feel like my friend group has shrunk to the absolute like core. and yet I am outwardly far more vulnerable because if you actually want to move the needle

and have important conversations, you've got to come into them with a level of truth. And the only way you can be truthful is by being vulnerable. Was the process of writing start with yourself? Was that an exercise and vulnerability? Yeah, it really was. It was very hard for me

because I didn't ever speak about my personal life. And I didn't think that as a woman, you could write a good business book without talking about emotions. and where your decision making comes from and where I make decisions and trade-offs and where the, I guess, like the crux of what I've done has really come from.

And so that was quite difficult for me because I'm so at ease talking about building brands and businesses and leadership. I'm like, I can do that shit till the cows come home. I can talk about money all day long. But the start of the book is about vision and emotional management. And that was far harder, both for me to,

accept that that was a huge part of why I've been able to make successful things a few times over, but also to be really honest about it. And so it was difficult. And in doing that, did you learn anything about yourself like Renee says you do? You know, I'm always learning about myself because I've tuned myself to listening. You know, again, when I was in my teens and my 20s, I can't even tell you like what a hot head and a nightmare I was like you know it's like I'd such ego I was a fighter I would steamroll through any situation like that's just like how I'm built I'm like a bull you know and a bull with like just no ears I was never listening to anything anyone said but you probably needed to be that at that time otherwise you wouldn't be here now I do think so I do think

that there were parts of me that were important that stayed intact because I had naivety and I had strength. I had both the ability to tune in to what was happening and the ability to not give a fuck about what was happening. And so I needed both of those things. You know, never either or. I'm both and every day. Well, from either all to both and we move on to your final bookshelfy book. Your fifth pick is lean in by Cheryl Sandberg, which is about having both and it's about having it all, although maybe not at the same time is what we've realized about life. It's what we've learned. Cheryl Zandberg's lean-in is a massive cultural phenomenon and its title, I mean, its title alone has become an instant catchphrase

for empowering women. The book soared to the top of the bestseller lists internationally ignited global conversations about women and ambition. Ask most women whether they have the right to equality at work and the answer will be resounding. Yes, of course. But ask the same women whether they'd feel confident asking for a raise or a promotion or equal pay. And some reticence tends to creep in. In Lean In, Cheryl Sandberg, Facebook, COO and one of the Fortune magazine's most powerful women in business draws on her own experience of working in some of the world's most successful businesses and looks at what women can do to help themselves and make the small changes in their lives

that can affect change on a more universal scale. Tell us why this is your fifth and final bookshelfy book today. Well, I think the first thing is that there would be no start with yourself had there not been a lean-in. Because when I read that book, I read a couple of chapters. I bought it for every single woman in my office. I maybe had like 35 staff at that point. And then I read a few more chapters and I went out and bought it for all the men. I was like, oh, miss the point there, Emma.

Okay, bye for everybody. It was really a landmark read for me because I, I had never encountered some of those thoughts, those arguments. I was behaving like that. I was behaving like a lean-in woman. I always talk about this idea of like I was born leaning in. That's just how I was raised. I come from a family where the women were all very clear about their intentions.

There was no hiding behind what anybody wanted. But she articulated it in a way that me working a corporate job at that moment operating in a corporate environment where there was, in my head, a lot of people that restricted me from the things that I thought that I should have. And a lot of women coming up around me, she made me become a different leader. What is both exciting and positive, but also a little bit of a disappointment is not that much has changed, like not nearly enough. And so, you know, I think that women are exceptional, but the kind of realities of our exceptionalism aren't reflected in the cap tables that matter, in the halls of power. And that is a little

disappointing this many years after that work and after so many movements and after the sort of advent of women support in women. And so much of what I try to do in this book is understand and speak frankly about why that is. Why aren't we making as much as men? Why is there such huge pay disparity? Why, when we make certain choices, does that adversely affect our wages in a way that isn't congruent with how it affects men's? And so I think that there is a lot of work to still be done. But to expect that work to be done by government or by companies, I mean, it's fascicle. The only way it will work is if we start with ourselves.

The only way there is any change is if we take it on ourselves, arm ourselves with the information and demand differently. And so so much of what I'm thinking about in this book and what I would like people to do is to recognise where the systems that exist actually affect you. How much is stuff that you have to deal with passively versus if you change your priorities and speak openly and get outside of your own head and align your decision making with the things that you want can be shifted and changed. And so, I reread this book recently. I was so, so like, wow, this was like such an amazing thing

and yet so disappointed at where we actually are. Do you want women in the workplace, whether in positions of leadership or in businesses, to be exactly the same as men? Because when I see women in leadership, I love the fact that they are women because they are different to men, because of the empathy or that vulnerability that you were talking about. This is not to generalise, but they bring something different to the table that we need. So where do we make the distinction between being more like the men and actually being who we are, but paving the way and having our own seats at the table rather than just the ones that were already kind of set?

Absolutely. I don't know that this is just a workplace conversation because there are a lot of women that go to work. and work in a workplace, but we also know there's a hell of a lot of work that happens for women outside of the workplace, right? We have people that work at home, raising children. Like, how are we valuing that type of work and contribution? I don't think it's about emulating male behaviours, but do I think we have to learn from those male behaviours? Absolutely. So to to envisage that we will get what they have without some type of understanding of the mechanics that are there, and what they do and how they behave.

The two things won't work together, right? It's like we have to have a clear understanding of what works. We have to work with the world as we find it. That's it. Otherwise, you won't get anything done. So it's like we can sit around and go, do you know what? Like, I'd like to do it really differently. Well, then take longer.

Like, then don't get what you want. There is a way that things are just wired. There is a way that things are fired. And so when I talk about working with the world as it is, you might have to shift and change a little bit. It's amazing because once you get in there, you can do whatever the fuck you want. On the inside. But to get in, there's just a way. I feel like that is, that is again the crux of a lot of the, to return to the word to the discourse that there has been around all these viral clips that have been on social media is.

Often you've been honest about the situation. This is how it is. This is not how I'm saying it should be, but this is how it is. The key is what we do next. The key is what we do next. And here's the thing, this is not for everybody. Everybody has different ideas of what their life should be. Everybody has very, very different ambition.

I'm not speaking on behalf of womankind. I'm talking to ambitious girls, the greedy girls, as they like to call themselves. I'm talking about people that have ambition, that want to get ahead, that have, you know, a fire in their belly, but I'm also talking to people that just want to be paid what they deserve. I'm not here to say, oh, my goodness, here's what's going to make you comfortable. Here are the ways that you can behave and feel really good about yourself.

I'm just telling you what's worked for me. You can take it or leave it. And so when it comes to what is next, what is next? Oh, I'm going to keep going to keep going. You know, it's like I think that the important thing is when you create a body of work, The most important thing is to get your work out there. And that's what I've been really focused on. It's like these are the ideas.

This is the premise. Have the conversation. I am really of the mindset that as long as people are having intelligent conversation that is, you know, chimes with them and makes sense for them. It's a job done. You know, there's nothing in me that expects agreement. You know, I make jeans and undies. I don't, like, no sooner do I imagine that every single person is going to love a good American skinny gene, then I imagine every single person's going to love the book.

No sooner do I imagine that everybody wants to walk around with a nipple bra, then I imagine they're going to agree to everything in the book. We have choice. Thank God we've got there as women. You choose your choice. I'm going to give you a smorgasbord of stuff to think about and hopefully you think about it. but I'm not, you know, sitting here worried if everybody agrees with me. Can you imagine?

I'd never get anywhere in my life. If you were everyone's cup of tea, you'd be a mug. Well, and here's the thing, there's that. And it's like, if you're for everyone, you're for no one. Yeah. You know, that's just never my intention. My intention is to speak my truth and to be really honest and never, ever to gatekeep. And that is a really important thing because we've been trained around scarcity as women

because for so long there hasn't been enough to go around. I understand why these things happen, but I think collectively we could make a really vital step forward. The only thing I care about is progress. The only thing I care about is winning. That's it. Well, you've not gate kept with us. Thank you for sharing.

And on the subject of choice, because that's what we have had today in your five books. If you had to choose one, we've gone from Enid Blytheid to Cheryl Sandberg. As a favourite, which would it be in why? Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's a difficult one. What do I want to say? What would I love?

Whether it's impacted you more than the rest or whether you feel like you just keep going back to what you can't stop thinking about it. It's so funny because, you know, the Enid Blyton books, The Fire Retreat, I've reread those with my kids and so they feel so special and magical. But if I'm really honest,

it would probably be mindset by Carol Dweck. And the reason for that is because like I like proof. You know, it's like I like the science and I enjoy the research and the kind of understanding. And that for me, I couldn't believe what I was reading

because I recognised so much of myself and I think it's a pretty wonderful thing to imagine that whatever it is that you have in your mind, your way of thinking, your unique ability can grow and shift and change and adapt based on what you feed it, what you give it, how you think. And that is all within yourself. And when I talk about start with yourself, it's so much of like that idea that if we plow all of our energy and all of our thinking and all of our vision and the things that we want

into ourselves first, that actually there's so much that we can do. And so I think that I probably got that from that book and that was that was so important to me I could tell from the way that you talked about it when you went through you were so excited I'm excited I reread it and every time you mention it yeah I love a reread I love a read you know there's so many books that I've read over and over again like in my book I give a list of the books that I love the most there's maybe 25 or 35 in there 25 or 30 in there but I am yeah it's like I'm an avid reader and I think that books for me have been it's the way that I learned you know I wasn't

a good student and at that point in my life when I was given the option to learn I didn't take it because I just had other stuff going on and so as an adult the way that I've been able to grow and take my learning seriously has been through books and so I also wanted to share like these are the things and the books that have actually been great unlocks for me so I'm so that's why I was so happy to do this show because I was like I get to talk about the books I read I was great I was like it feels good it's good it's good it's just it's good It's gorgeous. I mean, it's like the most beautiful, it's the most beautiful podcast. I was like, also anything to give me a break from my fucking self right now.

You know what? So over me. Here's to more reading. Here's to more escaping through those books, but also finding ourselves in those books. Thank you so much. I've agreed. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, my darling. What a pleasure. I'm Vic Hope, and that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize, supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org shelf where every purchase supports independent

bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust, a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing. Now remember to hit the follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you like this one, then leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. I'll see you next time.