Bookwild - 1,000 Words of Summer Update and Book Covers We Love with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

This week, Halley and I share updates on our 1,000 Words of Summer challenge and dive into what we love about our favorite book covers.  We also share what we've been reading, watching and listening to.Books We Talked AboutAlmost Surely DeadStone Cold FoxThe Last HousewifeThe FavoritesThe Lies I TellThe Force of Such Beauty  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am back with Hallie Sutton this week, so I know you guys are all as excited as I am. So welcome back. Thank you. I'm so happy to be back here. It's always such a joy to chat with you. Yeah. Same. I get very excited for our episodes, and sometimes on days when I'm doing stuff, I don't want to do. I'm like, at least I'll get to talk to Halle at some point. I know. I always come out of it if I'm having a blonde day feeling like way more upbeat. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Well, you had a kind of fun idea to talk about what we like, when we love a cover, what we love about it or what makes us love a cover. All right. I'm back. Let's see. Is this better?

It is. Okay, cool. So I bookmarked all of my 235 open tabs and closed them. So hopefully this will. That might help. That might help. I don't know. Yeah, it hasn't paused yet. So maybe that was it. Okay, cool. Weird.

I just refuse to believe there's a correlation between me being like an absolute garbage tab person and my computer efficacy. I don't think that's true. I don't think you're the only one. So it's better to live in denial. It's a fun neighborhood. There's lots of us here. Oh, yeah.

Anyway, thank you so much for having me back. tech issues at all. At least this time I'm not chasing a golden retriever around my house and grabbing things out of his mouth. That was funny. Cooper. I mean, he probably was a fun for you, but. You know, I don't know. He's like, he's such a joy.

Yeah. When I babysit him at like towards the end of having him all day, I'll kind of be like, I'm kind of ready to be done with this. And then as soon as he's gone, I'm like, oh, come back though, Cooper. You're the best. Yeah. I get that. So I'm so excited to chat covers. I also thought maybe, I don't know if you want to check in about this in front of everyone.

If not, we can just pretend I didn't say this and cut it out. But how are your thousand words of, how are your thousand words of summer going? So, one, I did want to talk about this. I thought it'd be cool. We're going to kind of have it documented via podcast form now too. Totally. But for anyone who didn't listen to the. episode two weeks ago. Hallie mentioned she was doing a thousand words of summer, which is like you do a thousand words a day for 14 days from like June 1st to June 14th. And at the time I was out

of my writing habit. And I was like, maybe I need, maybe this is a sign that I need to do this just to like get it back in my rhythm where like it feels weird if I don't think about the book or write something each day. And so I'm really glad you brought it up. It's made a huge difference in me just like getting back into the book for sure. And like the first day, I was doing it in the morning because I thought that would be the only way I can do it, which is very black and white of me and very typical. And it's still a good time to do it. So I haven't done it in the morning every day. But the first morning, I was like just staring at the blank page and freaking out. And I was like, I have no words. Like, I have none. And I just sat there until I started writing. And so then that was just like,

that one was a really good experience, even just that first day of being like, well, if you just sit there long enough, you'll get something out. And I feel like it's like reinforced that all the other days that we've been doing it basically. But having accountability definitely works. Like, knowing that I'd be texting you about it on the first day, I was like, you've got to do it on the first day. Or how do you yell at me? Yeah, totally.

So I'm just really glad you brought it up because it's definitely, it's been good for me. Good. I'm so glad. Yeah, I'm so glad. It's been really great to be doing it with you, too. I totally agree. accountability buddies or like where it's at. It's nice to have somebody else that you know is like waiting to hear from you.

I find that like very useful. I'm having like the inverse experience you're having where I like started out super strong and was just like, it's so easy. I'm just dashing stuff off. And now my brain is like, what else do we have to say? I think I'm also kind of, I'm in a weird spot with this novel where I have so much story that I've developed for the book, which I don't think is a bad thing. I'm kind of obsessed with all of it.

But I kind of still am struggling with what I want the container of that story to look like. Like I, whether I want it to be multi-person POV, whether I want it to be one POV with these kind of other rotating fantastical POVs, which is something I've been kicking around, I just keep kind of my brain doesn't feel like I'm totally connected with how I want to tell this story yet. And like, so I keep finding pieces to write, but it sort of feels like I'm writing into a void. I have like 60,000 words and I'm like, where do they go? Do they exist and like, are they going to stay in this iteration? What's a story? People probably don't just want my little vignettes about weird stuff about this like fantastical house in France that I've kind of developed.

So it's, I don't know. So I think 1,000 Words of Summer is such a great practice and it's so great to have an accountability, buddy. And like, one of the things that's coming out of it for me is this kind of being like, I understand my story really well on one level. And then there may still be work I need to do on a different one to try to figure out, like, how do I want to tell all the story that I have here? Yes. I think so interestingly enough, that was kind of. what was happening to me before we started this. And without giving tons away about my plot,

the gist of it is that a journalist, when she was in college, a reality star killed her best friend in college. But she didn't have any proof, and she's a nobody, so she didn't feel like she could do anything about it. Then she gets the opportunity to write, like what is the I don't even know what the word is for right now but write like a piece on this girl that or this woman they're like in their 20s now that she's hated for so long and she can't decide she wants to do it but she decides to do it so I have all of like I had all of her backstory written and I had like taken her through like the debate of like am I going to do this and then similar Similarly, I was like, how am I going to tell the story of this reality TV family, though? Because like their lore is going to be a big part of the backbone of the story.

And so I think when we started this, that was what I was stuck on is like I couldn't necessarily take my main character to their house because like I didn't know everything about them. And I was definitely getting like intimidated by like, I knew. what they'd done, but I was like, but how do I like show these characters? And I was doing the same thing where I was like, do I have two or three other points of view? Or what do I do? Like, I just didn't know how I wanted to do it. And then once I just started having to write, it just naturally evolved that kind of like third person omniscient worked the best to just have these like chapters that are telling the whole. family story instead of like do I need this person to be in first person or whatever um so this process

kind of helped me like realize just like as I was writing it I was like I think third person omniscient works for telling their story for kind of like the flashbacks of their family so I was kind of in a similar spot going into it that's really cool so are those flashbacks like are they kind of set in scene, is it sort of like flashbacks, like looking at different episodes of their TV show, like if they're modeled on the Kardashians? Like, that's, I think that's really cool. So it is in some way. That's a good question, because I almost texted you about this because I didn't know all the terminology for it. Because some of it is a lot more like, whatever, like 50,000 foot view of it where it's like,

explaining how the show came to be basically. So like kind of that part is like you're not necessarily in scene for a ton of it. And then you're kind of in scene for like a couple of the like pivotal moments like the network guy pitching them to do the show. Like then you kind of get in scene for that. But most of what these chapters have been is like, like kind of summarizing what happened. in general in a season and the overall developments. And then maybe like one in scene that kind of shows like how those events have been affecting their relationships with each other.

That's pretty cool. I feel I think that's really cool. I feel like third person omniscient has, I think having a bit of a resurgence lately. And I think what's really like elegant about using that for your concept is that you're kind of trying to create like the mythology of a family, like the Kardashians, and third person omniscient lets you kind of have this almost like, the lack of a better word, like godlike view into character. Yeah.

So it like helps elevate them to the like pantheon of fame that I think you're trying to like achieve. That's really cool. Yes. Yeah. And there are so many dynamics that I needed to get across between the mom and the daughter. And I think that's where I was like, am I going to have the mom's PioV? and the daughter's POV.

And then once I just started writing, I realized, like, I never thought I would even write in third person omniscient. Like, it's not that I hate it or anything. But, like, I gravitate the most to first person, stories that are told in first person. So I just didn't know if it would happen. And, like, all of a sudden, I was like, no, it's like, it helps to be able to, like, talk about all of the characters, talk about what the mom is doing, and talk about, the daughter's reaction without having to switch POVs.

Totally. Totally. Yeah, that's really cool. I like that a lot. And isn't it so interesting when suddenly you just sort of like drift into a thing? Like one of I think the legit most magical parts of writing and I'm not a particularly woo-woo person, but like this happens to me a lot. I think this happens to a lot of people where you write something and you're not totally

sure why. And then like as you write, it's like that's why. It's like your subconscious knew it before you did. It's really cool. It's like a cool thing that happens. It is. It's wild. Like where I've kind of learned that, and I was kind of telling you this, but I just like assumed I would be a plotter. And it's not that I'm not. Like I have most of my like beats plotted out.

But I was having those experiences where I was starting a chapter. I generally knew like I knew like what I needed what I needed to show, not tell basically. But I didn't necessarily have like, and this is the literal thing that's going to happen to show that. And I had something happen where like I wrote a piece of dialogue. And I was like, huh, that was interesting. And then later, I was able to like, I found myself using it near like the end of the scene that it like informed part of that. And I was like, whoa. So like did that, did my brain kind of know when I was writing that?

Oh, yeah, probably. Like on some weird level, you know. It's hard to know, right? Like, I'm not an expert in creative neuroscience by any means, but like that I totally, that's the experience I have. Like in The Lady Upstairs, my first book, I wrote my first year in grad school, I wrote like 120 pages of it and scrapped like most of those pages except for like one particular scene made it kind of almost uncut all the way through. Like that was one of those like little gifts your brain gives you where you just like plug into a scene and it just comes out. And you're like, that's exactly how I wanted to say it. Just like that.

That's perfect. Very rare in my experience. Very rare. But I wound up writing something in like a chapter two of that version of the book that wound up being like the closing paragraphs of that book. And it was like my favorite thing I'd written the whole time. And so I think maybe there was a part of like my brain kept trying to get it in there. But then when I got to the book, I was like, that's how I ended. That's it. And I was like, yeah, and I wrote that like four years before I finished the book. It was crazy.

Wow. Yeah. That is so cool. Yeah, it was weird. It is. It's the whole act of like creating something out of nothing. Like, I guess I wouldn't even say that I'm not woo-woo. I'm not like religious, but I probably am woo-woo about stuff. So the like the mystical part of creating something from nothing has been just like fascinating to experience. And it's making you realize how much your head trash that like keeps you from writing or like makes it harder to start. You're like you just the things that are coming up, you just can't think about them or worry about them too much because like you really might surprise yourself if you just

start typing basically. And I'm like, oh, it's kind of like learning to trust yourself more, which is also. an interesting theme for me. Totally. I totally agree with that. It is a lot about like learning to trust your creativity or subconscious. I am a big believer that even if you write words you never use, they're never wasted. They're teaching you something.

Or like taking you indifferent, maybe you had to write that to get to this other thing. You know, you kind of never know where it's going to go. I'm also a big believer. I should probably get back to this. I'm getting like stuck in my manuscript and I know what some of the answers are. One of the answers, anybody's struggling. at least this is what works for me. Get back to my morning pages.

The first thing I should do every morning when I wake up is just write three pages long hand, nonstopping can be total garbage. A lot of the time I wind up writing. I don't want to write this. How much longer do I have to sit here? How long are three pages for the love of God? How long are three pages? But you just keep your hand moving.

And it like gets rid of that head trash. And it like sort of just puts you in like a more creative mindset for the rest of the day. And then something else I'm going to try. And I'm bring this up because I'm curious if you've ever used it. I'm going to try today the Pomodoro technique because I failed at my 1,000 words yesterday and I'm not going to fail today. So neither of us can. We've got to. We've got to do it.

Yeah. So have you used the Pomodoro technique for anything before? I haven't used it, but I think I know what it is. Is it related to time? Yeah. It's like you set a timer for like 25 minutes and you have to focus on that thing for 25 minutes and then you can take a five minute break. Theoretically, you just keep doing it 25 minutes on, five minutes off. but like I think I just need to like bribe myself into saying like just do 25 minutes and then I know I'll wind up doing more.

But I need to like tell myself, this can't be second. You have to focus on it. Just you can do anything for 25 minutes. You know, that's that's yeah. Yeah. So adding to your list though of things that can help, I also saw Daniel Valentine. I think I've mentioned a couple times. She just gives some like great writing advice on TikTok.

and she was talking about, I saw it a long time ago. I think she called it character pages where it was like if you are just in a rut, she's like, and you're just like don't know what to do, but like you want to like stay in it and know you need to stay in it. It's just writing scenes of your character doing something, even if it has nothing to do with the plot, almost have no intention of like putting it in the book, but just like pick something like,

how would this person like go, into Starbucks and order something and sit down with someone. So then, and I wonder, I don't think she even said it, but it was making me think it kind of even takes the pressure off of like, oh, I'm writing this thing because it fits the book this way and just kind of turns it into like, do I know this character? And could I like write what this character is doing? Totally. Totally. And I think that's so valuable. Like when I was prepping for our conversation today, we're going to be talking about multiple things. But I was trying to think about characters. I've connected with, like, as a reader and the way, like, how do you make a really memorable character?

And I think one of the ways is, like, really knowing them well, making them like a very particular person, you know? And, like, I think some of that can only really come through the hard work of doing stuff like that, where you're like, it's not going to make it into the book, but it is going to inform the book. And, like, I have yet to come up with shortcuts. Would love it. If anybody else has me shortcuts for like how to create a memorable character that isn't just like a lot of time tell me but like that's so far all I've discovered is like you've got to just like live in their skin for a while and like you know lots of weird little things about them right well kind of related to that the other funny because I'm having all kinds of realizations about myself as

I go through this process the other funny thing is um my main character not shocking, is very snarky and a little bit angry at the world and wants revenge. And I just flew through writing her. And everyone was like, she had, I'm not trying to brag, but the people I've sent it to her like, she has such a strong voice and like, I love, I love how she is this way. And so that was the part I was flying through. And then when I was saying, I kind of got stuck with this family. The other interesting part is this is me having to write the more like vulnerable

and like soft character and like sweeter and less angry. And when I was telling Tyler that, he was like, I mean, it checks out that that would be the harder part for you. So I think that's also sometimes like

the characters that are a little more or that are a lot less like you are also like it takes more time to kind of like think through those things versus just like I think I'm naturally a little bit snarky and

distrustful like my main character. Well I wasn't saying totally to you saying that so much but like that's the easiest thing for me to write too is like or like maybe even the most fun you know like it is really fun to write a character where you get to kind of funnel

some of that stuff that you have to keep like closer to your chest to function in society is like not a monster person, you know, like you're shadow side. And so, and I love characters like that for sure. And I, for me, writing more vulnerable characters is hard to like, with Salma, my second main character from the Hurricane Blonde, like, she's somebody who's a lot more like openly vulnerable, I would say, than my first character. And there's like a lot more like sadness and grief there.

And like, that was way less fun to. right than like burn it to the ground. Burn it to the ground is so much more fun. Yes, it is. That's exactly what I was experiencing, like, so, so much. And it's like, but you know it'll be like worth it. Because even your like, even your characters who are like burn it to the ground, a lot of that is that they feel a little bit invincible. It's also kind of how like anger feels better and more energizing than sadness. So anger is a little more. fun to feel even if it's that you're sad. So it's like it's those things, but it's like even that character is going to have to

have a vulnerable moment for them to have a character arc. Totally. Totally. And like, yeah, characters that are all one thing are not that fun to read, in my opinion. Like somebody's just all snark and no vulnerability. It's sort of like, well, okay. Or the opposite. Like all vulnerability, no kind of like shell, no like ability to be a little thorny.

Like that to me is not that interesting as a reader either. Yes. Yeah. Well, I am so excited about that we're doing a thousand words together. And I hope I get to read your manuscript someday soon. I would love to. Oh, you will, for sure. Okay.

Oh, my gosh. And you know, I'll read yours. Thank you. Yes. As soon as I fucking figure out how to write it. Right. Same. Well, my closing thought on it, I did want to share it because it was so powerful.

I don't know if you watch hacks ever on HBO. I have watched the first two seasons. I haven't watched the newest season yet. The third one just came out, but I feel like I can talk about this, and it's not like spoilery and would ruin it for anyone. But for anyone who hasn't watched it, the very basic gist of it is there's a woman her late 60s. I think in the third season, she's 70, is a comic, kind of,

oh, why can't I think of Joan Rivers? Yes, a la Joan Rivers, basically. Similarly. And she's been a comedian since she was like in her 30s, which like in that time was still, was even rarer for a female

to be one. And so first season, basically what happens is like someone recommends that she brings a young writer to work with her. And she hates the idea of it. And this young writer who ends up kind of having to take the job, she has to take the job

because she just got like canceled for a joke that like wasn't even that out there. So they get the tension is that like it shows like generational divide really well. Also this like main character Deborah, the older woman is like she is a little mean. Like it is she does fall into unlikable character territory too. and Eva, the younger one, is just like woken like

just like doesn't think you should be mean to people so there's just all this tension between the two of them but they end up really respecting each other and enjoying working together is also what happens over time and in season three Deborah really really wants

to get there's an open late night spot and so she really wants to get it. And she's going a little bit manic about figuring out how to do it. For all kinds of reasons, they definitely explore the like ageism and especially how ageism is a lot stronger toward women. And so there's all kinds of reasons that it's really difficult, but she really, really wants it. And she's basically just going 100 miles a minute about everything and just not stopping and just constantly doing stuff. And so Ava asked.

her at some point she's like like why do you want it so bad or why do you um why are you going so hard with it now like why not like take a breather on some of this stuff and she delivers this amazing monologue that i will not do justice because i'm a writer not an actor um that basically she talks about how like the wonder of being young young is that that you have one day, like all of the one days where you're like maybe one day all in this situation, maybe one day I will write a book or maybe one day I'm going to try this or try that. And so it's this great, I try to find the quote before we got on and it's not in IMDB. So maybe I need to go put the quote in IMDB.

but she says like that's not what I have anymore like I don't you don't have the luxury of one day when you're older and she was like so everything I'm going for right now I'm going for hard and I'm trying to get it as soon as I can just like I'm getting chills talking about it but I know I'm moving this is beautiful yeah seeing that while I was like going through this experience with you of like being like, no, I am going to write for like 14 days. And even though I've never finished a book, I'm going to like, I'm going to act like I'm someone who could. Hell yeah. Seeing that while I was going through that experience, I was like so grateful that I am doing it

because it's like we are always getting older, like all of the unfortunate parts of that. And it's like, you do have to do the little things. sometimes even like every day if you want to like try for those one day things. So really beautifully said my friend really beautifully said. And I totally agree with you. I think that like like my perspective on bravery is that it is not the absence of fear. It's like doing the thing even though you're feeling the feelings about it. And like I think writing a book is like a special kind of bravery no matter who you are.

Like whether you publish, whether you're not published, whether you finish a book, whether you haven't. because you are like taking a big swing on a thing that's going to bring up a lot of like feelings and it's really hard to do and yeah you kind of don't know what happens at the end of it and you're just taking it off faith and so like I think it's so brave of you of me of us to be doing this and putting ourselves out there and trying this thing and to everybody I mean it is not like it's perseverance really is writing a book like yeah people have different levels of talent but like if you're the most talented writer in the world and you can't get yourself to sit down and write the book, like you're still not going to write the book. You have to get your ass in the chair to do it.

And so that is like for sure a practice that also I am trying to navigate my own way through because it's easy not to. Yes, it's very easy. There's like so much else to do. Like literally even just so many books to read. Yeah, exactly. So many books to read. So many episodes of hacks to watch. Like there are, you know, like it is the, I used to encounter this in grad school and I see it a little bit sometimes like the fantasy of, we used to call it like the fantasy of the cabin in the woods, which honestly is what grad school is where it's like for writing a book where it's like a couple of years where that's like your primary goal. But like most people in their lives, most people have written a book. Like don't, it's not going to be like suddenly the world is going to stop for two years and I can write my book. It's like the world is going to keep going and like, you're going. You're going to have to go to work.

And if you have a family, you'll have to, like, there's, it's just, it's, you got to do it or you're, or don't do it. That's like how it is. In my opinion, anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It's not to say that any of those things are not valid. It's just like, in reality, they're not going to sit down and be quiet long enough for you to just have like uninterrupted time to write a book. Yes.

Yeah. Yep. I agree. Yeah. You just have to choose to do it. Yeah. Which is like horrifying. It would be so much nicer.

It is. It was just like magic. Like, you know. Well, and even like, it's been, it's been good that I ended up talking about this on the podcast because there is a whole other like a version of accountability that I'm talking about like, oh, I want to write a book. Yeah. And because it would be easier to just like, if I just do it alone and no one knows, then what's the point?

Or like, what do I need to be worried about? And I'm going to quote hacks again. I just can't help myself. but it's not giving away huge parts of the show. I really feel like people could enjoy it very much even knowing these parts. But basically they find out that the late night host spot is available. And so she's like kind of trying to network and like get people to maybe consider her. And her writer, Ava, at one point is like, why she was like, you've had like all the success,

like your special just did really well last year, why, why don't you just announce it? Like, why don't you just have a press conference and say that you want it? And she was like, because I already didn't get it once. And like, what if, like, what if I say this time? Because she was like a runner up like 30 years before. She's like, what if I say that I want it this time and I don't get it? And like, that's even more embarrassing and whatever. And Ava like looks at her. And she was like, your entire career has been about how shameless you are. And she was like, and you're going to let shame be the thing that keeps you from what you want the most right now. I was like, oh my God. Speaking directly to my soul. Yes. Yeah. Where it's like that'll get in my head. I'll be like,

I'm not even going to finish a book. And I've like talked about it on the podcast and people know. And you're like, is that even a useless thought or a useful thought? You don't need to have them. I know. Shame is, shame is a weird one for sure. Like, you know, it's a very real force that often keeps us like, it tries to protect us, right? It's like trying to keep you small to protect you. But like, ultimately, is that what you want, you know? And trust me, it is not. Goodreads is like an arena that will also bring up all the shame in the world of like, oh, those people who hated my book or told me I should write it a different way. I don't read my Goodreads reviews anymore because of that. Because of that. I don't know if I will. Like, I don't know. I feel like I wouldn't. Some people, some people get a lot out of it. Like Lane Fargo reads hers, I know.

And she, I, she has like a, an ability to sort of hold that feedback and hold it lightly. For a while she was like doing rounds up. Yeah, kind of doing rounds up of like her favorite. one-star reviews and stuff. But like, for me, I think it's not that readers don't have feedback that might be valuable, but like I can't do anything about it now. The book is out. You know, so like, it's just going to make me sad. I will say, though, somebody, um, one time we are so we're like, are we ever going to talk about covers? No one knows. Who's to say? We might. We might. Keep people on tinderhooks for, that's how you get a podcast going, I think. Like,

I don't use the subject and be like, are they ever going to get to it? Exactly. Yeah. This is our Save the Cat arc of a podcast talk. So anyway, I was going to say somebody did write in, I found this. This was very kind that nobody tagged me in this. And I was doing the monster thing and like looking through and just found it. But somebody had written, a handwritten note and they stuck it in a library copy of my first book, The Lady Upstairs, which is about sex work and deals with very adult. I mean, I don't know if it's about sex work is what I should say, but it has sex worker, and it's

dealing with very adult themes and, like, sex scenes start pretty early. Yeah. And somebody hand wrote a note and put it in a library book that was like, this is the most vile, sordid book I've ever read. I don't know why the author felt compelled to write this. For no amount of money would I have ever written this book, like, and just kind of went off on it. And actually, I fucking loved it. I thought that was, like, great.

I was like somebody really compliments actually totally somebody really hated it I swear every time I like posted on social media I get people being like BRB running to buy your book this sounds great and it's like also it just makes me laugh where I think the writer had said like for no amount of money would I append to this book and I was like jokes on you I wrote it for free I didn't know if I was going to sell it you know exactly oh my god gosh also too like not to read shame but like they're not reading it. They're not reading it. much if that was the most vile book they've ever read. I was like, I mean, we have a lot of, like, racism in America. Like, this is the worst thing you've ever seen? Yeah. Okay. Oh, my gosh. That is crazy. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I will look or not. It's one of those things where, like, there's the whole quote that, like, I don't even know if it's a quote. Dax Shepard talked about it on a podcast years ago and it never left my mind. that if you can see like 99 positive comments and one negative one and the negative one sticks with you. Yeah.

It's because that was the one that you believed. And I was like, like kind of the whole part where you also have to take ownership that like if you completely didn't believe that that person was correct about your experience writing the book or whatever, you wouldn't let it stick in your head. So sometimes I'm like, I just need to remember that. And I'm like, I don't know. I think it would still hurt to read a two-star review. Totally. I mean, everybody's different, you know? So like, you'll figure, you'll find that balance for yourself when your book is up on Goodreads and people are rating it. But, you know, like, and I don't know. I don't know that it's something I would have guessed from the beginning. But yeah, I kind of have a strict no reads policy. Oh, way, man. Like, everybody's entitled to their opinion and I don't necessarily have to ingest it. But like, good reads is for readers is like my strong, strong core. I know.

Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see how I feel. Now we can maybe talk about. Perfect. We'll finally get there.

Yes. Yeah. So I loved the idea of it because I do just get excited about covers. Oh, yeah. And we talked about, obviously, a lot of you are listening on audio, but we'll be descriptive. and the links are always in the show notes too. So I'll put links to everything if you want to see the covers. And also, it'll be on YouTube where you could literally see it.

But I still think we'll talk about what we like. And it'll still, I think it'll still appeal over audio. I think so too. Yeah. We ummed in unison. I know. We're really in sync here. Do you want to go first or should I?

I'll go first. Okay. I think in no shocker to anyone, if you've ever seen me on a podcast or seen the color scheme I post with, anything that has purple and pink really is just going to catch my attention most of the time anyway. But I even have, so like I'm a digital reader, but I did fill my shelves so that I could have the aesthetic. but um amina octar's almost surely dead it has like purple and pink and red but like visually what i really like about this one too is you can kind of see this like shadowing there's a girl who's kind of like jumped up in midair with her like arms and legs behind her which sounds weird to say but then there's this kind of like shadowy glitch of her body basically i don't know how

describe it you guys can look at it or you've heard me talk about it so much that you know what it looks like but this one is so cool the other thing is like this one has a is it ghostly or is it not questioned to it the whole time so I also feel like it's a cover where it like it's really described showing the like vibe and the main question really well but the other cool thing about this book was then if you take the trying to get it to catch it there we go if you take the the, what is, dust cover, dust jacket off. On the actual hardcover, they put like, what is it, gilded the image of the girl's body like that, like falling on the book.

So cool. So that was just a really cool detail. And literally, book is purple and then pink when you open it up. So, of course, I was going to love it. I love that. I love that. And I actually haven't read that book of Aminus yet. I've read her two other ones, but I'm excited to read it.

I've heard her talk about it at the LA Times Festival of books this year. And like she is, she's so great. Like she's a great writer. And then just like it's a person is also awesome. Yes. Yeah. I love her. She's so cool.

She's super cool. Okay. So you were super smart and brought out piles of the books. And I don't know where my brain was, but I'm just going to talk about them. Yeah. Is that okay? I just normally can't. So it was just random that I even did.

Okay. So maybe we can throw up pictures on YouTube or something if people need it. But the first one that I was going to mention is Stone Cold Fox by Rachel Kohlercraft. And I, it's like, it's a woman's face and profile and she's kind of like blowing on her fingers like they're a gun. And the fingers have all these cool rings on them. And it's such a unique color scheme for a thriller where it's kind of this like, beige with this acid green font over it. And the beige is really interesting because it kind of looks like money. Like this whole woman looks money. She's got these almond nails. She's got this like cool

ringscape happening. She like looks like a cool New York girl, which when you know what the book is about, which is about this woman who's kind of like trying to infiltrate the wealthy and marry rich. And then the acid green that kind of is like a more modern twist on like it's just, It's really striking to me. And it's funny because, like, I, okay, I'm somebody who has women's faces on books for both of my books. And I love both of my covers. I think Putnam hit him absolutely out of the park with them. But like, I'm not always, it's a little bit tropey at this point, too, to have, like, women's faces.

But like something about this Stone Cold Fox cover really reads is very different to me. Like a little shaker or something than normal. Is it just the bottom of her case too? Yeah, it's just kind of like here down. And then what's also cool is that she has her new book coming out, which is disco vampires set in like 1970s London, which is like the coolest fucking premise I've ever heard in my life. I was like, jealous when I heard that. I was like, I wish I'd written that book.

It sounds so fun. I'm so excited for it. Oh, totally. And like her cover team did a really cool thing where it's like a very different cover. It's two women. And I think it's also kind of like from here. hear down so you don't see their full face and their vampires and there's a disco ball. But like that kind of subtle echoing to tie the covers together that it's like a similar amount of a

woman's face that you see like there's it makes it feel related without feeling safe. And I think that they did a really good job with that. Yeah. I when the point you brought up about it looking like money, I can't believe I never the Stone Cold Fox back to that one. I can't believe I did not pick up on that. But that is so what it does. Yeah, right. It's rich. Yeah. It's like a wealthy feel to it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It literally looks like printed money. I'm just, I'm just mind blown by that part. And that I just saw that they declined me. That's so weird. I got so hot Fox on NetGalley last year and I got declined for me of the nightlife this year. That's okay. But, I was looking it up there.

That's okay. Should we call out Berkeley right now? It's a Berkeley that's did it? I don't know if that's her publisher, but I think it might be. I can't remember. It probably was because they're the ones that's like still really hit and miss Berkeley. Yep, still really hit and miss for me. That's okay.

That's okay. I have a lot to read in July and August. Fair. So that part's good. But I, of course, couldn't make it through a whole podcast without. talking about Ashley Winstead again. Yes. Yes.

But the last housewife, we've also got purple, pink, and like yellow orange going on. So of course I love that too. But this one is a really cool example of one visually. It's just very striking on its own. But it is one where once you read it, the cover has more meaning. So that was something I was going to bring up where like sometimes, I mean, I would have loved this cover no matter what. But sometimes I'm not even like necessarily obsessed with the cover. But then I read the book and then like there's some extra context.

And all of a sudden you're like, well, that is so cool that they like put that on the cover. And in some cases it's cool that it didn't spoil anything that it was on the cover, but that it makes things make sense. So I was like one that I could think of that did that. I know there was another one I read recently that did that. And I couldn't think of it for the life of me. But it's so cool. And like all of a sudden you're reading, it's like when you're reading and then like the title makes sense or it's like set in the book or same thing like when you're reading and you're like, oh, that's why that's on the cover. Totally.

So those things are cool. And what I think is in particular cool about that cover too, which I actually also love. I think it's phenomenal is that it also kind of subverts a little bit the title, which to me when I first heard it, not knowing anything about the book, the last. housewife is a like feels pretty domestic and which is like she's doing on purpose and like she's also subverting it within the book but the cover kind of makes it feel less um less domestic you know what I mean because like which there's nothing wrong with but like that's not really the book it's well and the fingernails the uh the nail polish is like chipped it so for people who don't know it's like two hands and it's like about to thread a needle.

But the, yeah, basically the nail polish is also like really scratched up. So it's not like your prim and proper housewife. Totally. And the hands are in this position where they look like they could be bound either for like sort of a rest or like maybe for like a BDSM sexual maneuver. Like there's like something sort of frozen about them in this position that's interesting too. Oh my gosh. We could talk about covers forever. That's for sure.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, I love that one. And one of my favorite books of all time. That's so good. She goes so hard in that book. I know we say that every time, but like I'm so impressed by it. It's just so true. It really is.

It really is. So another cover I want to mention is a book that's, not yet out, but I am pretty sure you will be seeing everywhere in the next in 2025, which is the favorites by Lane Fargo, especially the U.S. cover. And it's just gorgeous. It's these two figure skaters, which if you don't know about the book, which you should know about the book, it's great. It's a retelling of Wuthering Ice told through the story of these two kind of infamous

ice dancers. And it's just like a book that only Lane could have written. and then it's big. It's like 700 pages. It's beautiful. Really? So it's even like water and lights and long. It might be wrong on that. It might like the actual like what it winds up in page count might be different. But like it's a chonker. It's a chonky book. Nice. And it's just it's it's got this kind of like classic timeless feel to it. It feels kind of erotic. If you know. notice there's like some light scratches kind of on it, which are like the blade scratches on the

ice sort of. Like, so it looks like you're kind of seeing it hazily. It's got these kind of gold flex to it that are like a gold metal. It's just like a stunner. And I think you're going to be seeing it everywhere next year. I know. It is beautiful. I feel like what I was just thinking about, I feel like she did a post where she talked about like what she told them she wanted it to be. Yes. And then I'm just going to look. Yeah, and I've seen like so many iterations of this cover, like stuff that she shared with us, a different, like, and it's, yeah, it's so good. Yeah, so she says, I gasped out loud when I first saw this image. I wanted a cover with both grit and glam capturing childhood sweet arts turned skating partners.

Katerina and he's passionate intensity and competitive edge. And wow, did it champion designer Rachel Ake or Aka? deliver but it does it even like you can kind of tell how like you feel like you can feel how close they are too it's totally it's great yeah it's a great one oh i can't wait to read it yeah 464 pages for anyone who was wondering yeah yeah oh i can't wait to read it i have it on that galley already and it's one we're like because it comes out is it january yeah january 2025 sometimes like I don't want to request ones that are that far into the future just to like keep my numbers on my shelf down because then you get accepted for more. Yeah.

And but this one I was like no, I have to request at the beginning because like I need I don't want to like lose out when they like hit their quota number for it. So totally it's reading for me to read. Yeah. Well, you're in for a treat. Oh there. Did it? Did the internet? Oh, okay.

You just rose for like three seconds. I think. But yeah, I'm super excited to read that one. This was kind of the last one. I don't know how many covered ones you had. But I loved the lies I tell. So also, they're still purple and blue. I think I love it. You really have like a like a very specific aesthetic and I'm here for it. I do. I do. But when you were talking about the faces on books happening so much, the kind of cool thing about this one is you have like half the top half of one woman's face on the left side in the top and then you have um just the bottom half of another woman's face on the bottom half off to the side and it is like it's a book that is about it's very cat and mouse and

like who's conning who and how so the vibes of the cover just like fit so much for that kind of a story. So I always loved that about this. But this was also the inspo for our podcast art when we were killing the tea. So we had like half of our faces, but we did it on either side. I also know how much of the purple and blue. So like even that was included in it. So the kind of cool thing was our podcast art was inspired by this book for a little bit. I love that. I love that. I love that. that's really cool um yeah clearly a color will reel me in i i still will read a book with yellow and whatever but i did just talk all about purple and blue no but i but i get it like certain

things catch your eye like i was noticing weirdly it's not necessarily my favorite color but like that kind of acid green like i mentioned in stone called cold fox i think it's maybe because you don't see it as often although i think it's kind of getting more common it really catches my eye I noticed that on the cover of my sister, The Serial Killer by Incan Braithwaite. There's something about it that is just like a little bit different to me and like arresting in a certain way. So I'll pick up a book.

So all, all I have, I have others I could talk about, but on some level it is my life's mission to talk about the book, The Force of Such Beauty by Barbara Borland as often in my life as I can. And I've, I know I've talked about this book with you before, but that also has a very stunning cover, both the hardcover and the paperback. And it's this woman,

and she's kind of sitting in, if I remember, it's sort of like a hill of flowers, but it looks kind of fantastical. It's got what I would describe as like, like menacingly pretty imagery around it, where it's the sort of like, it looks very fairy tale but wrong, sort of,

but not in like a dark way, in like a two neon way. And then her hyper neon and saturated. Yes. And her face is kind of blurred, but she's got this enormous manic smile. And it's just, it's such a striking cover. And like I think it, and I mean, I love that book that is like one of my all time great's book. But like, uh, the cover was honestly the first thing that made me pick that book up the cover.

And then, um, so cool. Amy Gentry's recommendation about it on Instagram when Amy was like this one's great. Yeah. I was like, well, I think Amy has great taste. So I picked it up and I have not stopped talking about it for two years. Dude, that is, that is me with, um, look closer. Like, I have, I have a bunch that I've been talking about for like two years. Totally.

Like, I was on, I was just on, um, Thriller by the Book Club podcast. It hasn't come out yet, but we just recorded it. And they were like asking like, favorite, my favorite. thrillers, kind of like just in general what I am attracted to in thrillers. And so even then, I talked about Last Housewife, I talked about Look Closer. I'm doing it now like two days later. So we all have one books that we get excited about. Totally. Totally. Yeah. What do you have a book you can think of where you've either bought it specifically because of the cover or like you buy different editions because you like different

editions of the cover or? Okay, that's a good question. And I know there have been some, because especially with debut authors, when you're just like scrolling that galley seeing what you're interested in, it definitely is that the cover, well, Stone Cold Fox would have

been one of them last year. Was like, I saw that and I was like, oh my God, like, what is this about? Especially since I like eat the rich type stuff too. And so you just like, like you were saying, you feel like you know that that's how, like, what that one's going to be like. So I feel like that one got me, Society of Lies. Oh, yeah.

I haven't bought it. I have it on NetGalley. But that was one where it's the cover is like a kind of straight shot of, you know, if you know that it's in college, you're assuming it's dorms or a sorority. like a stone building with like not foliage but not vines. What is that? It's kind of like Ivy kind of and it's got a little. Yeah.

And it's like as I recall it's got like a pink percoly motif to it too where it's kind of like lit from within. So you know, I mean, the windows look pink. But the really cool thing is that in the windows you see there are nine windows and you see like. 10 different people in the windows and like different amounts of people in the windows.

And I don't know if it'll even like directly translate to a scene in the book, but it's so voyeuristic. Totally. And it's like, and you know that there were all these secrets as is common with a, why can't I think of it when it's on campus? No, when it's on a college campus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go. Dark Academia. It just has like peak dark academia vibes that you're just like watching what crazy, young, probably horny freshmen are doing in college and all the trouble that will come with it. So yeah, that one, like I saw it come on that galley and I was like, I have to figure out what this is about. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great one. It's a great cover, great book coming out the summer. And I actually think I have a an author interview coming up with her in my

author of Twitter this month. That's exciting. I'm excited to read that one. Yeah. I, the craziest thing I've done for cover lately was earlier this year when I guess I was like,

money is no object. I bought the new Kelly Link book who Kelly Link is like one of my all-time great writers. This is her first novel. Everything else has been short story collections. They are genius. If I could pick,

my writer brain to work in any particular way it would work like Kelly Lakes. Like that's truly, I mean it. But so it's got a great cover in the U.S., but I was obsessed with the U.K. cover. So I bought an imported version of the U.K. cover and spent like 15 euro extra to have it shipped to my house because I was like, no, no, I want this one. Is this the Book of Love? Yes, yes.

So is it the more like the one with like, the sky and the lighthouse maybe. The, let me, so the, the, the US one is red and it's looks like it's got like phases of the moon on it. Yep. And then the UK one is sort of like, yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. Let me see. Sorry, I'm just looking it up to make sure. It's really like, I was like, what's money?

I want this. It's the best book ever. It's Kelly Link. Yes. It's, yes, it's kind of like got a, starts kind of purply and winds up kind of orange at the bottom with this like sea and a tiger walking by. And the cover itself has this kind of like metal foil details on it. Oh, that's cool. You know, if you're going to do it, do it. Yeah. So I bought it. I mean, you have to on some stuff. Yeah. This is like already a book that I know I'm going to keep. Sometimes when I read books, you know, I buy a lot of books. And then sometimes if, if I'm not obsessed with them, I will resell them or thrift them or something. But like a Kelly Link book, I'm like, I know I'm going to keep it. So I'm getting the version of the cover I love.

Oh, I get it. Gare sent me his copy of the last murder at the end of the world. And it is a gilded copy. Is that what it's called with books, gilded? Yeah, like the edges or the metal? Yeah, it's like a light. blue metallic on the edges and I was like well this is cool I know when I see I'm like so jealous

of authors that get that on like their edges or the deckled edges it's just like so fancy so sexy yes I know I'm like I'm never going to read it but it's pretty I know right it's an object to keep in your home which is like that's what books are too to some degree it is yep no it totally is there's something else oh that I was thinking like you are going to I'm eventually going to read something fantasy. Like your, it's right about some of them. Like, I'm going to end up reading something with fantasy in it. Yes.

Which is so funny. I, like, yeah, I don't, I don't read a huge amount of fantasy now at this point, but there are certain, like, I really love, like, Kelly Link, yeah, it's the sort of, it is fantasy. It's more kind of what they call, like, speculative or weird fiction. Okay. But she's so cool. Yeah. Yeah.

She's so great. She's just like. I don't know, man. I don't know how her brain does what it does. Yeah. I know that's like a weird endorsement to give a book, but like it's amazing. Well, that's how I feel about some like singers too, though. Like, she's like, how?

Like Chapel Roan, I'm like, micro-obsessed with her right now. Me too. Like, I'm just like, man, like, I just, I think it's also because like I can't even comprehend making music like at all. Same. And so like all the little details and, like, all the little details. and all of her songs, I'm just like, wow, someone's brain just, like, thought of that. Totally. No, I know exactly what you mean.

I feel the same way about music, which, like, yes, writing a book is hard. And I can imagine that maybe somebody would feel that way about writing a book. Like, I don't know how you do it. And you're like, yeah, eventually it just happens. But, like, there are so many different moving pieces. But, like, yeah, I'm like, what do you start with? The lyrics or the melody? How do you just conjure a melody out of nowhere?

Like, what are talking about? My brain doesn't, it doesn't compute. Yes. yeah that part blows my mind because i'm like so obsessed with the lyrics like i am a lyrics person like i'm like tyler's like i don't i don't even know what this song he'll literally i'll be like they just say this and like it'll be his favorite song of the moment and he'll be like i don't know i have no i have no what they're saying but like obviously and i'm like both like i it's the feel of it but like i want to know the lyrics and sometimes when i'm reading them i it is like

so you like this poem came to your mind or did the poem come to your mind with music attached to it right and then like if it wasn't attached to it how did you like look at the poem and like create music like you stitch those two together like how do you like yeah yeah because they're both so important to like the feeling it evokes when you listen to it yeah so crazy it really is it's wild we're not musicians. No. I think we made that clear. Yes.

Oh, man. But yeah. What are you reading these days? Anything you're excited to share? So I just finished The Best Lies by David Ellis. And that dude just, he just knows how to really, like, manage, like, three I think look closer might have been more than three

but in this case it's three characters three points of view and he just knows how to like what's so like the thing that was the most impressive to me is your main main character is in first person and then the other two characters

are in third what's not omniscient though third third person close third person yes yeah So, but they're, and at the beginning, you don't know how they're all connected, like what they're, the stories seem very different. You kind of don't know how they're going to be connected. But then the characters start interacting a little bit more.

And so you'll like end in a first person perspective in the, in the middle of the same scene and then jump into someone's close third person. where like his books, it's not a spoiler to say that like there's kind of a con happening in all of them. And like the fun of it is figuring out like who's going to win and what people's actual motives are. And he's so good at just like making you like, I don't know, is the motive this? Is this person this? And so you'll be getting all this like first person information. And then you jump into this other character who doesn't know everything about what this guy was just saying. So he just uses like multi-POV even in the same scenes.

Wow. So just make some of the like most intricately plotted stories. Like that's crazy. That's hard to do. Talking about how someone's brain works. Like that's where I'm like every time I had, I don't know. I can't remember if I was reading or if I was writing when I read Look Closer. I think I kind of was.

Or I was right at the beginning of like learning about crap. basically I think it was more of that and when I read it like I remember telling Tyler like I like that feels like a book that would be like so hard to write kind of to your point about Kelly Link it is one of those where I'm like that book where it's like inspirational how many like details could be managed and then twists could happen because of it and that just using POVs that way um my eardrum is being weird so that's why I'm touching my ear. Using the POVs that way.

Like it just sounds so challenging, but I think I also think it sounds challenging in a fun way. So I guess what I'm also saying is that sometime in my career, I've got to write something as cool as this. I think that's exactly what it's telling you. That's usually what happens with me too is like when you get really obsessed with something like a book. Yeah. It's usually like, oh, there's something here that I want to do. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, it makes me want to think about how to do it. You know what I mean? I think that's like what it inspires. So I just finished that one, but I'm excited maybe tonight. I also need to get my words in, as we talked about. So we'll see if I get to this. But I'm really excited because the next one that I'm reading is Only One Survives by Hannah Mary McKinnon. Oh, nice.

And people are like calling it a. Daisy Jones in the six style thriller and it is a blank is it like the way that it's told the way that it's like through I don't think so I haven't I read like a prologue

and that wasn't that way but I was reading an article but the prolog is all that I've read I think so I'll just read the synopsis for this one and then tell you what I think all drummer Vienna Taylor ever wanted was to make music. If that came with fame, she'd take it as long as her best friend, guitarist Madison Pierce, was sharing the spotlight and singing lead. And with their new

all-female pop rock band gaining traction, soon everyone would hear their songs. Except on the way to an event, the Bitter Sweets van, careened off an icy mountain road during a blizzard, leaving one member dead and another severely injured. In order to survive the frigid night, The rest took shelter in a nearby abandoned cabin. But Vienna's dreams devolved into a terrifying nightmare as one by one her fellow band members met a gruesome end. And Madison simply vanished into the night. What really happened to Bitter Sweet, did Vienna's closest friend finally decide to take center stage on her own terms? She doesn't want to believe it, but guilty people run.

Oh, that sounds great. And the vibe I'm getting is that I think there's going to be like a lot of the backstory of like their band becoming a band. So I'm getting the vibe that it's kind of like the complex relationships. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of Daisy Jones and the Six and then clearly a thriller plot. Yeah, which sounds great. I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Ooh, exciting.

Yeah. Are you reading anything? Yeah, I'm reading The Bad Ones by Maloney. Melissa Albert, which is like kind of a thriller, horror, supernatural mix. I'm not kind of sure where exactly. I'm, I think I'm like 85 pages and did like a 380 page book. So like I'm deep into it, but I don't fully know if we're, I don't know how much is going to be. I don't know where like those percentages are going to fall. You know what I mean? Like how supernatural, how horror versus because all of those kind of can live in the same same box. And it's about, there's this town, these two best friends who have been estranged and one night, five people in the town all go missing. And you see that in a prolog and you see that like they've basically been taken by a girl who seems very otherworldly. And our narrator is the best friend of one of the girls who went missing. And so she's kind of trying to figure out what's happened. And she thinks she's getting clues now that it might be connected to this like basically like a bloody Mary type game that they used to play as kids.

But it was like about the like local goddess who was like a young girl who died in a fire and then kind of became like some sort of like vengeful ghost maybe is what I'm thinking. And so yeah, so that's where we're at. So I'm curious to see exactly where it goes. But I'm I'm very much enjoying it so far. Yeah. That sounds interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Vengeful ghosts. I mean, you have me a vengeful, basically. I know, right? Love a vengeful ghost. I'm like, I don't know. Do I like ghosts? And you're like vengeful, and I'm like, maybe I like ghosts. No one wants like a chill ghost.

Do you want, you know, a ghost with a mission? Yes. Yeah. You do. You really do. Have you watched anything recently? We talked about, like, two weeks ago, I think. Yes.

So, I think we talked about at the time. I think I mentioned the jinx that I was watching. But lately, I've been watching. a French show called Zone Blanche, but it translates to Black Spot in I'm going to say an American, which is like, okay, Allie, have a little bit more coffee.

Something's not clicking in English. Although what they're really trying to get out is like dead zone. So I think like the terminology for that in French is zone blanche. And then they're translating that bizarrely into Black Spot, but it really is more kind of like dead zone. So it's about this. They did a literal translation. Yeah.

Yeah. A little translation except that zone blanche means white zones. So black spot as a translation doesn't matter. Yeah, it's like it's very odd. But whatever. I suppose Netflix didn't ask me to translate it. No, clearly. And so it's kind of like a twin peaks meet sort of like a little bit more supernatural.

It's this like little tiny town that's like right on the edge of this four. forest and the forest has kind of like mythological um feelings to it but it's also feelings mythological kind of like history and you kind of don't know is there something supernatural in the forest is it like this is it just that like forests have this atmosphere of being like fairy taleistic or is like they're actually something supernatural happening there and so it's this little town that has like six times the national murder rate and so they're like what's going on. So something has like curdled this town. And so each week, it's kind of a procedural where a crime starts it. And then it's the people trying to solve it. But then there's also this

kind of overarching story of like what's going on in this town that this, that all of these things keep kind of being drawn to this place. Like bad things like continually happen there and are drawn there. And it's in French. So I'm practicing my French. Wow. The book that I'm working on is set in the French like forest and so I'm kind of also trying to use it for like a vibe check

and then I'm also just really enjoying the show it's great that's cool yeah you have like you always have the coolest answers

and you're like oh this French show what about you what are you watching besides hats obviously I was going to say we all know

I've been watching and since I read so much still as well I'm not watching a ton else but when I was basically

when I'm doing editing work where I can have something on in the background where like audio is involved in the editing I finished the Valley which is a reality TV show on Bravo

but it is insane oh yeah it's not even I can't even claim it as research because this isn't and even like the type of reality show. I'm developing in my book. It's so research.

It is messy. It is so messy for a first season of a show. Oh, I think I know which one this is, right? These were people maybe who are on Vanderpump rules or something. Yes. Yes. And then it's like their marriage and they opened a bar together, but like now they're divorced or something.

Yes. Like, yep, that's all. Yes. basically it was a 12 episode season um so like not even super long and like the opinion amongst like all bravo watchers like it's something that has unified to people like I have not heard a single person talk about the show and say like it's okay like everyone is like how did they do this many reality like memeable

iconic moments in just 12 episodes. Like everyone's mine as well by the show. I might need to watch it. Four couples. Okay. I think four couples. And then a couple other friends who are single

who all live in the valley. So like, but they all have kids. So the idea was like, oh, this is like Vaynerpum Pruals. Yeah. But only Jackson and Brittany and Kristen Doty are from Vanderpump. The rest are new people. But like we start off with four couples and to your question about like the relationship

you're just describing, two couples are divorced by the end of the first season. Two. It's almost like going on reality TV show is like not healthy for relationships. It's so weird. I think what it is is if you haven't looked at the unhealthy parts of your relationship, it gets apparent really quickly. Yeah. So like you didn't go into it with like some solid ground. Like it's going to speed up the demise. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like you're right. It is wild though. Like some of the stuff that happens like you you even kind of if you're pretty empathetic,

feeling bad for like enjoying it because you're like, it's nothing totally dark. You're just like, but this is also people's lives. Totally. Totally. It's, yeah. But they're popping off of each other about dumb stuff sometimes. Which is like, I feel like that tension constantly in reality TV shows where it like, it's this weird thing of like they're inviting us to kind of like be very voyeuristic and like maybe not our best selves in like certain stuff.

But then also like they're real people. I don't, it's such a weird thing and it's delicious and that's why we love it. But like it is the strange tension of stuff for sure. Where like, that was somebody's actual marriage. They have kids. Like their kids are going to see this one day. But also they made that choice.

Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's so odd. It's rough. And then there's, yeah. And it's mainly the couple you were talking about.

Jacks is, he's another one where like everyone agrees that he's good reality TV. Sure. Most people also agree that he's pretty terrible. person. Well, I think those two go hand in hand, you know? I know. I know. I know. I know. And it's I've never really watched Vanderpump rules. And even I know Jacks was like not a good bet for like a boyfriend slash partner. Not even a little bit. And the, I mean, there's, then there's like, this is the empathetic part. Then you're like this poor woman who did marry him. And all of us were like,

why did you marry him? And like, yeah. He cheated on you so. many times before you even got married. Like, and then he's treated her so poorly. Like, very demeaning, very controlling. We even see it in the season. So, like, empathetically, though, you're sitting there and you're like, like, what happened that made you okay with this for so long? Yeah.

And she's even having that realization in, like, one of the confessionals, she's like, how the hell did I stay with him for so long? Like, what was happening with me? So then there's that part where you're like, man. Totally. That's a, that's an intense. I feel really sad for the person who thought that was love, kind of. Yeah, totally, totally.

Right. Like, right. Who, you know, accepted this for whatever reason. Yeah. And it's just sad. Yeah, totally hard to see. And I believe Sabrina Carpenter has a new song out that tackles a little bit of that phenomenon of like, I know you're a bad idea, but I still want you.

Just don't fuck it up. Motherfucker. I know. Oh, God. It's just everywhere on the TikTok and I can't get enough of it. Everywhere on TikTok. I'll just be sitting here editing and I'm like, don't embarrass me, motherfucker. Me too. And I'm like, I'm like watching that music video like three or four times a day. Just like, just got to say it again. I know. Oh, my God. I know. I texted where like the morning it came out and I was like, Sabrina Carpenter's new music video. I just sent a hot emoji. Iconic. Yeah. So good.

iconic. I know so good. Don't embarrass me. And you're going to be in the music video. Oh, I know. It's like, you don't embarrass me. It's such a power play and like kind of admitting to her fans of like, yes, I understand. You all have concerns about me dating this guy who has like a two-year-old son and, you know. But like, I want him and also like, if he fucks up, I very publicly said it's on him.

Yes. It's just like, amazing. She's like, it's not my problem. Exactly. It's amazing. I'm really hyper fixated on her in Chapel Rowne lately. Same, which is like all TikTok is serving me too. Yes.

Yeah. Well, it's that same. The other thing I thought was interesting about, please, please, please is also Taylor's song, but Daddy I Love him is a work of art. Like I am so impressed by that song. Like it's like still it's not even one that like I'm going to listen to all the time necessarily. But it's like I remember really reading the lyrics and like listening to it over time. And it's that same amazing thing that like women in pop right now do feel okay being like I can make my decisions and they're just my decisions.

and like yeah there's just so much to it like her lines about um the one that's even like i'll tell you something about my good name it's mine alone to disgrace like totally so empowering that women are just like i don't care about your guys's opinion right and even if he leaves me that's on me like it's such a cool attitude push back on toxic fandom while also acknowledging like sort of the commentary that's happening for sure. And like, what was I going to say? There's something else about, oh, I don't wonder where I read this, but some commentary, cultural commentary about Taylor Swift that was talking about how she's the best artist

working today at like mythologizing her experiences, like taking them and turning them into like this not just works of art, but sort of like an epic journey, like almost like the Odyssey or something and like we're along for the ride. And like, I think that's really interesting to think about it. I don't know why that tickles my artist's brain in an interesting way, but it like it really does. Me too. Yeah. Me too.

It fascinates me how she's done that. I think I read that same article because I read something that was pointing that out and then was also pointing out how she felt like her abilities to tell her story got so taken away from her through the whole edited fake videos with like Kim and Kanye. Like there's also other media stuff that made her feel that way. but I feel like that's such a big example where like someone just fakes something and you feel like you don't get to tell your story anymore. So I was reading an article that talked about how like then you see like almost that's then when she really, I mean, reputation comes out. But then all of her storytelling is so strong.

Not that it wasn't at the beginning, but she's kind of been like, you're not going to take my story away for me. and like I have turned my story into this like saga that like people know about. It is totally. Totally. Totally. She's like, yeah, created this like almost like, I don't know. Like it's really interesting. Like it's so interesting that Kim, the Kim and Kanye of it all and like I'll leave Kanye out of it.

And but like I was I read it. I was reading a different article that was talking about like is Kim Kardashian actually the greatest like performance artist of our time that she. She has essentially turned her entire life into like performance art. Performance art and like capitalism and like commercialized, you know, monetized like just living, which is very strange. But there's a way in which Taylor Swift is doing that too in a very different context. And I don't know. It's an interesting thing where we kind of like there is some appetite for women, maybe not just women, but like women creating this kind of like

almost version of their life that we get to like play along with in a certain way. I think that goes in very toxic. Beyonce does it too. Totally. And Beyonce Beyonce is like a little different in that she like creates like a big gap between like who she like you. She has like Sasha Fierce and the Beyonce that she will present to you. But like that is a manufactured item. I think probably both Kim and Taylor are the same way to some degree.

But they're actually both out there being like this is authentic. Whereas I think Beyonce is. a little bit more like this is the part of me you get to buy you're right you know and she kind of like keeps it at like a slightly different distance but like we're into all of it like in this really intense way have you talk to megan collins about any of this because i know she has thoughts for days about taylor swift so i know she's huge swifty huge swifty thoughts for days very smart human megan is and like such a great writer and like has like really intense takes on taylor swift so she has a book coming out next year across my heart which also has like a

an iconic cover that's purple and pink that like right up your alley. It's beautiful. And I got to read that book and I was like blown away. It's so good. So if you interview her for the podcast next year, which I highly recommend, you should definitely talk about there should be like a whole part of it to Taylor Swift. Yes. I need to.

I need to. She and I've been talking a little bit in DMs. Oh, nice. And we had necessarily until recently. So yeah, we definitely. talk about Taylor every now and then too because I I'm very I think I've said this on the podcast too I'm I am not a fan who is like she can do no wrong right um which I think is like almost important to say nowadays sometimes about your mouth being a fan if we can mobilize the swifties to

take on climate change like we would be living in a different world like somebody needs to figure out how to like harness their power for something other than Taylor Swift and be like go yes I I know. Do something, you know. Yes. I agree. I agree. So, but like, but I am so intrigued by the lore. That's like what's fascinating to me. The lore and the story building and I eat it up learning about it. And the Easter eggs feel.

Totally. Like, I think that reeled me in a couple years ago. Because it feels like a thriller. There are parts that feel like a thriller. Like they're trying to like see the signs and predict things. And I think that's a whole brilliant. thing like in and of itself being like oh i'll give you secret messages so then people pay attention to every freaking thing that you do totally totally perhaps to her ultimate detriment in some way but like

in terms of superstardom it is like absolutely genius yeah yeah yeah so i'm like totally fascinated by all of it it's it's definitely just like a lore that's really interesting to me but also it's kind of part of what is an idea for the second book I will write. So I feel like that's the other, that's the other reason. It's very fascinating to me right now. Oh, that's exciting. Look at you dropping Easter eggs.

I'm yourself. I'm dropping Easter eggs. You've learned from the master. I'm just trying, I'm just trying to be the most effective marketer before I have a book written. That's a good plan. The, this is so random, but it's been in my head since the beginning of talking.

about how Taylor has created almost mythology around her. So I got really hyper-fixated on her a few years ago. But the person I was also extremely hyper-fixated on for a long time in my 20s was M&M. Oh, I did not expect that to be what you said. Oh, I know. I know. Because I was having this, so he had a song come out called Houdini. and oh my god slim shady is back guys slim shady came back um there's so many i can talk about the things he

included in that song for forever but that is beside the point he basically is coming back into like he's about to have an album come out so he dropped a new single and i was like oh my gosh like seriously the two artists i probably listened to the most are imam and taylor swift that's that's your Spotify is like what's happening I know that's why when I started listening to Taylor Swift Tyler's like who are you amazing and I was like I had range but I think what I have this is my I mean it's a book podcast but this is my um hot take on why Eminem and Taylor Swift are a lot more like than most people would think um they both did create both of them

really, really, really, really use their life experiences and are very like vulnerable about their feelings. And like, people were saying in like the 2000s that like Eminem was a rapper where it was like sitting in

on his therapy sessions. And people say that about Taylor Swift nowadays too. They're like, this is my therapy or like, it's like she just does this and it's her therapy session or whatever. Um, so both of them like really pull from really emotional things in their lives. He just has some more with anger sometimes. Yeah, a little bit.

A little bit. Um, but both of them, I would argue he hasn't called it that have some really specific eras of progression. And another thing that I love about or that's really interesting to me about Taylor Swift is that she was like, you're not going to box me in. Like, I'm even going to try different things and just, like, do it well. Her music is generally similar, but also it's not. Like, listening to, like, ready for it and then listening to But Daddy, I Love Him is a very

different experience. Totally. And I'm really intrigued by artists who are like, I just want to kind of try it all and, like, figure out if I can do it well. So Eminem, though, has also had some very, like, slim shadies even, kind of like an alter ego. And so this music video that came out, Houdini, has like the idea of the song is that Marshall Mathers is trying to keep Slim Shady from getting him canceled. Is the like tension of the song. Yeah. And so the music video has like him like dressed up at all

kinds of different phases of his life, which are really distinct with him, which is the same thing with her eras like she's done a really good job of having very like i think she did on purpose had very distinct looks through each era his was kind of like he just went through so much and changed so much over time but like now he's just like wearing a certain outfit in this video and you like feel like it's like that he's like the 1995 version of himself so when i was watching music video i was like this is like the look what you made me do music video she also has like different versions of herself in music videos. So they're both artists that also like examine their artist selves as well.

And they've always kind of been that way. I was like, damn, probably why I get obsessed with both of them. Yeah, that makes sense. Understand the like artistic, um, tent, like the tension between like the artistic construct of you versus like the authentic you. And I think there always has to be both, right? Like, yeah. Because we're always constructing different versions of ourselves.

like even normal people where it's like you're not the same person you are like at work as you are with your friends is like you know what I mean like all the different kind of like masks you wear but it must be such like disorienting thing to have that gap be whiter and to have like a billion people on the planet be like I'm obsessed with this version of you and you're like but I'm also over here you know yes yeah yeah yeah especially his because he and then he has like a recovery arc Right. Totally. So it's like there were just lots of changes. Yeah.

That's just what I've been thinking about. Taylor Swift's in Eminem when I walk my dogs in the morning. I did think you should pitch that as an article somewhere. I kind of, I was like it feels like a clickbait, not in a bad way. It feels like a clickbait article. Totally. Totally. And I feel like I could probably find some more. All right. Well, now I'm going to, I need to do it.

The two list just got a little longer. I know. I'll be like, I wrote a thousand words about Taylor and him and him. I mean, that would count. That would totally count. Yeah. Forever the whole gamut. Books, TV, music.

I know. We really did. Writing. Yeah. And we've got a few more days of a thousand words. I believe in us. I think we can finish strong. I think we can do it.

We can do it. Yes. We can.