Bookwild - A French Residency, Morning Pages and Philosophizing Reality TV: Halley Sutton Returns!

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton returns!  We talk about her experience in a month long residency in France, writing processes, books about writing, and books we've read and loved recently.  Books We Talked AboutStory GeniusSave the Cat! Writes a NovelThe Night SideDisappearing EarthEverybody Knows Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Over the past few years, I've had two podcasts. I had, have between the lines, which is a podcast where I interview authors about their books. And then when I met Gare, we started killing the tea for obviously we kind of talk about everything that we're looking forward to with books like Into the Future and also just like specific book topics and just like talk about bookish stuff. And so I've had those two going. And since you guys have probably seen or heard about Gare's announcement this week that he's going to be stepping down from killing the tea, I thought now would be a good time to kind of explain a little bit of a rebrand that I have going on. So I'm going to combine the two podcasts, basically. So between the lines episodes, the episodes that are like interviews with authors are going to keep coming out on Tuesdays on this, this podcast now, basically. And then the killing the T type episodes will continue to come out on Friday. The main difference with those episodes is co-hosts, basically, a group of co-hosts. So a podcast that I listen to and have listened to for a while,

the Taylor Sharker Show, in case there's randomly someone who knows what I'm talking about, she has basically a Patreon podcast, but she puts one out five days a week and has multiple co-hosts. So you kind of get to hear multiple different people's perspectives, and the conversations are all kind of different. too and i've like enjoyed listening to it so much that i was like i wonder if that's possible to do with a bookish podcast so on friday we're going to be having the killing the tea type episode with a co-host where i'm talking to them about something book related whether it's a direct book um like book subjects, like a direct subject, or just like something bookish in general.

Those are going to keep coming out on Fridays. And I've definitely enjoyed, I've done two of them now, kind of, just we haven't really talked about it as like a concept, but I've really enjoyed talking with Audrey and stuff. And the episode you're now going to hear with Hallie Sutton. It was so much fun too. So I am looking forward to just like talking to all that. co-hosts really and kind of like building building that into this podcast but the other thing is as they merged together um i was trying to think of a more blanket turn for the podcast so you will see

at this point because the artwork was updated before you started listening um that this podcast is now going to be called book wild. So it'll encompass both of the kind of podcast types that I just mentioned, but it will be one thing. And it's been the YouTube title for a while, or a YouTube channel name for a while now. But I am now making it like the blanket title for both podcasts. So I am really excited to see how this all plays out with different people. bookish perspectives. And I'm excited for you guys to hear all of the many things Hallie and I manage.

This week, I'm super excited. We have Hallie Sutton with us again. I don't know if I've told you this, but your episode is like one of the most referenced episodes that we get. Like people talk to us about it. And like, there'll be like, yeah, like the Halley Sutton episode. We're like, yeah, definitely. So I'm super excited to have you back on.

That's awesome. Thank you. That made my day. I mean, that was such a highlight for me, too. Like, I really, I honestly was just like, I felt like we were just chatting, you know? Like, and it was so much fun, which is great. Yes. That's like the best kind of podcasting, in my opinion.

I think is my favorite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you've had a lot going on since we last all chatted. Yes. But when I, I don't know, when I reached out to you last month about something, we were talking about something, you said you were at a residency in France. Yes.

And I just want to know all about it. Yeah. It was, I'm so excited to chat about it. It was a crazy, amazing experience that I had. So I was, I spent the month of France, the whole, or I'm sorry, the month of France. The month of February. was the month of France. Yeah, exactly.

I'm like, February is just the month of France to me now. Like, that's what's up. So I spent the month of February at an artist residency in the French countryside in this 17th century chateau called Chateau-Oercl. It was amazing. And this, so it's a little village that's east of Paris about two and a half hours in the Hote Marse. in the Hote Marn, which is the least populated part of France. There's one inhabitant for every nine kilometers. And there's like a dark and grisly history behind why that is.

And we can talk about it if you want. Oh, my gosh. I know. I was just like to make a joke and be like, so the perfect place to live. And then you're like, which has a dark and grisly past. And I was like, oh. Like maybe less so. Yeah.

I mean, honestly, it's an introverts dream. Right. So I got accepted into this artist residency. which was not just for writers, although there were a bunch of writers that are really, really talented people who were very inspiring to me. And like visual artists and photographers, and then there was a performance artist and musicians. I mean, it was amazing. It was really cool.

So there were 23 of us living there for the month of February in this 17th century chateau, which was gorgeous. And I hadn't thought a lot of that. lot about the aspect of living with 23 other people before I did this. So it was wonderful and great and also was sort of like without the dating aspect. It was like being on like big brother or like the bachelor, but like artist. It was amazing. Yeah. So we were just there and I was there specifically trying to work on my third book, which is set in France at a chateau. Oh my gosh. So it was kind of perfect. And it like it really

helped unlock a few pieces of the book that I've been struggling with. And it was just crazy. So it's this beautiful built in the 1700s. So I said 17th century and it's actually an 18th century chateau. I don't know why I had to correct that. But like I wouldn't have been able to sleep. Right. And it's like I wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight. I would have been like, I said the Rome century. So. And it was originally built as a hunting lodge for the daughter and son-in-law of Denny Diderot. who was a name I had heard of but didn't know that much about, but he was like one of the fathers of the French Enlightenment alongside Voltaire.

So it has this like deep artistic, like, um, thoughtful history linked to it. And so it's this beautiful chateau that they've restored. It's truly like just beautiful art everywhere. And it's got art that like is from the time of, the residences, I'm sorry, from the time that the chateau was built, but it's also got art from all the different residents who have been there. So you'll have these, like, beautiful, you know, antique artifacts alongside, like, these really surreal, interesting, like, portraits people have done.

So it was just this, like, really rich creative experience. It was, like, right up against a forest. And then there was this beautiful moss forest and these, like, that just looked like something out of a fairy tale. There was a pond with swans. I mean, it was like unbelievably fabulous. It's like idyllic. Yeah. Yeah. It was gorgeous. I couldn't have picked a better experience. And I'm happy to go into it more, but it was amazing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I definitely, I want to know more. I want to know, I mean, I want to know about this grisly past, of course. Sure. I know, I know, I know you're, you're great with those details. And we almost talked about Hollywood for forever that way. So, I know. I don't want to know more about that. For sure. For sure. And also I'm like, I had it on my list of like things to talk to you about. I was like, we just had the Academy Awards. We should also try about like all of that and like your thoughts. Yes. Yes. And so. So the grizzly past is, and I mean, it's really, it's more of a sad past. But I mean, it's like, when you in this little village. So this was the part of France that was in very. both times by the Germans in World War I and World War II. And so you kind of have this like

one two punch of a generation of young men wiped out by World War I, followed up by World War II, where, you know, evidently the Nazis did set up camp in the chateau that we were in. They had like commandeered it and used it as like a headquarters, which is crazy and awful. And so then anyone that they suspected of being part of the French resistance, not only would they kill you, but they'd kill your entire family. So you have this like ghost town in the countryside where it's like this beautiful village that's been around since the 1700s, which isn't that old, you know, but is older. And there's like 60 people who live there. And it's because it's just like, generations of families have just been like wiped out. And like so it was this, it had this sort of French Gothic ghost town feel to it.

Yeah. Which was, you know, it has its roots in something very trash. And then also to me as an artist was like very inspiring for like types of thrillers. Right. So it was like a weird dichotomy. Right. That's what I was going to ask. So is that kind of gothic vibe a part of your book or however much you can talk about that? Totally.

You want to. Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely, it's going to be a part of the book. I'm trying to do something a little different. My last two books have been very LA focused. And yeah. I felt like the whole time I was writing my second.

book, The Hurricane Blonde, which I loved. I was also like, God, I just like, it was the middle of the pandemic. I wanted to be able to travel. And so I was like, the next book I write is going to be like a travel book. I'm going to go somewhere with this. So I thought, why not France? And so it's going to be set. It's going to be kind of revolve around these two women who have a deep childhood friendship

that has been ruptured for various mysterious reasons and who reconnect as adults. And it's they kind of whisked themselves off maybe extra legally, shall we say, to this abandoned chateau in France that has some very deadly secrets associated with it. So that's kind of the vibe. That's it's still really early. And like honestly, I shared more with you just there now that I think I've shared with my agents. So Sharon, if you're watching, I hope that sounds good. Yeah. You're like, I hope you like the direction.

Right, exactly. It's like, I'm pretty committed. So, yeah, so that's where I'm going. And then I'm going to bring in some, I think, some kind of surreal elements that haven't necessarily been as present in previous works of mine. I'm trying something new. Yeah. Not that I'm abandoning L.A. Noir, but like, I'm stretching in a different direction.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. I think that sounds fun. Thank you. Also, it was making me wonder. So did you, how did the kismet happen that you ended up in France? Was it something that like you already were thinking you were going to write that book?

And then you ended up going to France or like, how do those go back and forth? Yeah, totally. So it actually, like, I knew I wanted to set my book in France. But I actually had originally thought that I was going to send it, set it in the south of France. I had been originally kind of thinking that I wanted to do, do you know the movie Dirty Rotten Scoundrels? I feel like I do, but maybe I don't. It's from like the 80s or 90s maybe, and it's Steve Martin and Michael Kane. And they kind of play, yeah.

Yeah, they kind of play competing con artists in the south of France. Yeah. And it's got this like interesting twist at the end. And I like, I love that movie. That's a comfort movie for me. And so I had originally. thought of like doing something that kind of wasn't wasn't like a knockoff of that but had like a similar feel. Yeah. And I just kept trying to make it work and it kind of wasn't working. So honestly,

even when I went to France, my idea had been that it was going to be set in the south of France. And so I was like, I'm in France. It's the wrong part. But whatever. You know, like, I'm in France. And then I was there at the chateau and I was like, no, no, I'm setting it here. Because it was also like, I wish I could just like take you into my pictures and show you, but it's this beautiful pink chateau on a hill among all of this green and blue. Like it just is such, it felt like this fairy tale cottage, which. Oh my gosh. It's five stories tall. It's enormous.

Like it's not a college. But like, yeah, when I was there, I was like, no, no, it's, you know, it's my fictionalized version of this place. And that that, to me, felt kind of different. And then I get to bring in kind of like the forest has such way to. of like fairy tales and like different things and the history of what's happened in these forests and like getting to pull that in and include those as elements in the book. I just felt like that's exactly what I want. So not set in the south of France anymore and now it's set. And that so that came about directly from the residency. Like I think if I had gone to a different residency, it would

be a different book. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I did want to say if you want to send the pictures, we could put the pictures up on YouTube for people. So YouTube people could be seeing a few of the pink tall cottage pictures right now. Yes, I absolutely. I will do that. I'm like so bad with technology. I was like, should I just hold my phone up to the like thing? And be like, look, you know.

Like, I don't think that's going to be great. It's not picking it up. Right. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, we will. I'll put it in the YouTube. So if anyone just really wants to go. see it, you can also go. Check it out there. Fantastic. Yeah. I mean, a pink chateau. Like,

that sounds right up my alley. I need a pink house. Right. It's like, like, it felt like being in a fairy tale. But then, of course, me being me, I want the fairy tale to be like dark and have like secret catacombs underground and stuff and like different elements to it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That is so cool. So we've never really talked about your writing process. But what especially since you were just in it like I guess what did it look like in a residency to be yeah um great question and you're writing a book too aren't you kate i am yeah i would love to hear about that sometime and like your own process too if you want to share like that's i love hearing about other writers processes yeah i can say what i've done so far okay amazing yeah i'll go

after you okay cool um so i so this residency really was mad at for me. Like it really was and for a lot of different reasons for the people I met for being where I was. Like it was just kind of incredible. But I went into it. And I have always felt a little weird about the fact that I don't have a daily writing practice. And like I, my first book was written while I was in grad school. And so I had this framework of like you had to turn in 30 pages every three weeks. And that kind of kept you like really accountable and um granted my book changed a lot when I came out of grad school and I did all of that outside of it so but then I had this kind of momentum going and then with my second book um so it took me three and a half four years to write the first book all told

after you know various rounds of revision through pitch wars with my friend lane bargo with my agent Sharon with my editor Danielle so it like all told it was um four years and then yeah with a hurricane blonde I sold it on spec in the middle of the pandemic, which means you sell it off of the first three chapters and a synopsis to your publisher. And then my editor was like, okay, can we get a first draft in eight months? And I was like, ha ha, we'll see. I never know that before. It's like, it's a lot faster that I've ever written anything before. And we're in the middle of a global pandemic.

I'm not feeling creatively inspired, but I guess I can try. And so it ended up being a little longer than that. But it was a very different process. Yeah. And it wasn't one that I really want to repeat in the exact same way because I still have like a full day job. And so what my writing process for those months looked like was I would get up early. I would write before work for two hours. I would do my day job.

I would make myself dinner. I would go to the library. would write at the library until the library closed, I would come home, I would write for another hour and a half before I went to bed. And it was like that for like a year and a half. Wow. And I mean, that's not to say that there weren't days that my schedule wasn't exactly that, but like that was the book of my schedule. In general. In general. And so that is not like a sustainable writing practice. And so that has been, no, that has been something that has been on my mind for the last a couple of years as I'm trying to approach this third book and thinking about my career

holistically is like what does a sustainable writing practice look like where I'm making consistent progress but I'm still feeling joy while I'm doing it because that kind of schedule doesn't lend itself to like feeling joyful it's kind of like an all hands on deck situation where you're like just go you know yeah and so so that had been a question on my mind as I went into this to the to the residency and like can I you know I want to make a lot of progress while I'm here I want to try to figure out more about like what's an ideal writing style look like for me what does that look like and so for the first uh I would say five days maybe a week that I was there I was really struggling and I could not get myself to write anything and I was reading this

book by disappearing or called disappearing earth by Julia Phillips that just like brought me to my knees with how good it was. And so I was just like, I'm never going to write anything like this. I'm not writing every day. Like what is my life? You know? And I was like having such a kind of meltdown about it because I was in France. I was like doing this thing. And it was what I wanted. And yet I couldn't bring myself to be creative. And so I had to kind of, I like literally had to. I literally had. a day where I was lying on the floor, listening to music, trying to meditate, doing yoga, like doing anything to try to just like knock something loose. Yeah, like every self-care thing I can think of. And I was like, okay, you're not writing. What's the worst that happens? You'll be here

for a month. You're in France. You're going to be taking notes for your next book, but you're not writing, but you're not writing. Right. And so I said to myself, the only thing I have to do every day is morning pages, which are, do you do, do you know that practice the like you get up every yeah. Right. Like a certain amount of pages just like right when you wake up, right? Right when you wake up and you write three pages by hand. And it just is kind of meant to be like just a full brain dump of just like, like you're just trying to keep your hand moving. And so sometimes I would be like, I don't want to be sitting here doing this. I want to be downstairs eating a croissant. Why am I sitting here doing this? Yes. You know, but I was like, that's a practice I've tried in the past. And so,

and it's often been a way to bring me back to myself creatively. And so I was like, all you have to do is write those morning pages in the morning. And if you don't write anything else, that's totally fine. And so I just kind of submitted to this feeling. And lo and behold, about three days into writing the morning pages, stuff for the book started coming out. And it started coming out during the morning pages.

And then it just started coming out during the day. And then I wound up writing about 30,000 words on the book of like bad, bad, like bad. not good like that is not just me no no like that like like I really struggle to internalize this but like I think my last book cured me of it you know when they say like write the shitty first draft like yes every time I hear that and then I'm writing my shitty first draft I'm like they don't mean this shitty though like there's limits you know what I mean like it can't be like this bad but it can be I think it can be And so I know. So I wrote so I like here's a sample sentence I wrote I wrote.

I wrote in this in these like one of my just little morning page vignettes about that was a scene in the book. I said I stared at the memorial memorializing the dead men which is like yeah that's what a memorial is Halley and that's what it does like it was and I was just like that's fine just keep going you know like right move forward it's it's generally what happened. like yeah that's that's that's three ways to say the same thing good job um and so uh so so so all of a sudden I was writing every day because I was writing my morning pages and oftentimes in those morning pages I would either be writing which isn't necessarily what the like pure practice of morning pages are but it was working for me so I'm not knocking it which is yeah just um writing like a little vignette or even just thoughts about a scene or like oh I think that something like this should happen here or, oh, what if there's a character who's like this?

Or, and then I would notice that like throughout the day, I would start, if I started my day off like that, throughout the day I would often wind up writing more. And so my new practice that I brought back from France is daily morning pages no matter what, first thing in the morning. Yeah. And then if a like vignette or like piece of a scene has come out during that time, then I will try to make time that day or the next day in the afternoon at some point when I'm kind of have a break from work or even after work and I'll transcribe it into my computer. And the process of that, I usually wind up editing and expanding a little bit through it. Nice. Being like, okay. And so then, so then it just kind of grows. And that's how I got to those 30,000 words in essentially three weeks, which was, which is like,

I've never written even a bad draft that fast. And so I think, I think that's my new. writing process? I think it might be. So we'll, yeah, we'll see. What about, what about you? I want to hear about your process and your, your book. Welcome back. So for everyone listening, there's an obvious hard cut here because my internet just totally went out. So I don't know what Hallie heard last, but what, what all did you hear before I just was talking to myself? So we were talking about Lisa Cron. And then you said, so you essentially were like, so I'm working on massaging the logline, but here it is.

And then it cut out, which was like the greatest moment of suspense for me where I was just like, I did it on purpose. Yeah. Perfect. Good timing. Great timing. Right. I just wanted to really build it up.

You really want this kind of synopsis. But basically, so after reading story genius and like thinking that idea. through her process. I kind of landed with a journalist who years ago when she was in college, her best friend was killed. And she knows it was by a reality star that her friend had become friends with at the time. But she doesn't have enough proof. And so she never felt like she could do anything to like go up against like the machine of a like kind of Kardashian level. Totally. Reality star. So she never felt like. she could do anything so she obviously like hates this bitch from afar but she's like I can't do

anything about it and so then like five-ish that's what I'm thinking years after it she's working as a journalist and basically gets asked to do a piece on the reality star and so there then a couple other things kind of make her decide to take the job because she decides she really does want to prove that she killed her friend. Amazing. What I ended on. Oh, I love that. That's great.

I can't wait to read it. And also, like, when are you coming out to L.A. to do some research, you know? I know. I need to. I'm going to need to. Yeah, I think you do. Yeah.

So, like, and so in terms of, like, character, making the character that would fit the what if, that's kind of what that book helped me with. And then I was still kind of like, I've just never written a book. book and I didn't like go to school for it either or whatever like so I still feel like I was running into like but how do I write a book? Yeah. And so then I read Save the Cat, I writes a novel and that was like, okay, so that's how you plot like that's it's both like it kind of focuses on like the emotional part too. But when I read that I was like oh this is how I like need to like plot it and pace it. And so that like really helps me understand the part of me that like wants a structure

for doing something. And so now I have most of that mapped out. I still I still need to fill in my like fun and games like I need to fill in, you know, the big like middle part of totally. But like that'll come. I have like beats written out. And so then that's awesome. helped me so much. And so now, oh my gosh, I was on like a great like routine of like it. It's not always the same time that I can write. We, my husband and I basically like, work, have a business together where we make content as well for other people. So our days are kind of like different depending on like, especially in the podcast world, if people get it to us on time or like when they're actually getting it to us. So my days were always different.

but I was definitely getting in the habit of like writing a scene six days a week, five or five to six days a week. Which is huge. Really sick. And I like totally knocked me off. But I'm like, this is the first day that I've been like mentally there. Oh, good. So I'm going to get back to it.

I was like in a good swing with like the state of the cat outline and everything. That's awesome. I'm sorry to hear you were sick. That's a bummer. But like, you know, that stuff. have I'm trying to like for for me I don't know about for you but for me it can be really easy to have like an all or nothing mindset and I keep trying to remind myself of like yes that doesn't you know like sometimes you get sick or like yesterday I had a dental appointment first thing in the morning

and I didn't write my morning pages before it but then I wrote them later you know and it's like sometimes you just have to work around the realities of life you know that because like stuff will come up yeah yeah I but I was like I was realizing like I typically have at least an hour an hour and half a day that I can write instead of scroll. So I was like, that's like just what I need to do and you'll still make progress. Totally. Totally. I know.

I know. Man, TikTok sucks you. I don't know if you're scrolling TikTok or Instagram, but like TikTok is like the one where all a sudden don't look up and I've been like, I've been doing 40 minutes. Like, yes. Yes. Especially if you and Tyler travels. So it's like it is just like me from myself for day.

on end. Tick talk like I will. I'll be like it's seven o'clock. I thought it was 5.30. Right. Since when is it seven o'clock? I don't think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Tick talk. Ticktok will get me like. Like, for sure. For sure. Me too. It can make you lose sleep. Yeah. Yeah. But also like when I had, I was just telling Tyler about this because the medications, I'm not giving me nightmares, which like I already have them. So it was like, it's been like crazy. So like one night I I'm at the middle of the night and I was like, I need to turn the light on and I need to, I need to scroll TikTok. And he was like, what I do when you're gone and I have a nightmare and I just need like different

images in my head. Yeah, for sure. For sure. You don't fall asleep. So it's not the greatest idea really. Yeah. But I know what you mean. Like I actually do that too when I have nightmares, which luckily, yeah, I'm doesn't happen

to be often. But then I have to like turn on a show or something. You know what I mean? I need to like remind myself that like, no, no, we're in a different place, you know. Yes. Yeah. Mine were so strange. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that. So I've read part of a story genius. And I think it's, I think the way she goes about it is so great, like character forward and the way she talks about that. Like you said, mentioned the third rail and the emotions. And like I need to bring that more into my practice. I also use Save the Cat writes a novel, which I think is so useful. I mean, it is. I feel like there are people who, and I understand. this feeling um when you take something that feels like it could be like plug and play like okay here are the beats at every story there's a little bit of like resistance there but like it's also like it was good enough for Shakespeare you know what I mean so like okay um yeah I actually use it

so are you have you been you've been outlining or like kind of outlining as you write or like how does it I really so actually what happened was I outlined for a while and then i started writing a few like months ago six or seven months ago and then we just got like differently focused on business basically just like making it more profitable and stuff yeah so i kind of stepped away from it for a little bit and then i came back to it and it was like i had 30 000 words but it was like some of it was using story genius on like all of the characters yeah yeah and you're like everyone's round everyone's full yeah yeah yeah Yeah, exactly. And I was like, I don't need this much about everyone, but it got me writing and like, that's good too. So now basically I did, when I got back to it, I outlined even more with the idea of like who I wanted to focus on the most and what was actually like useful. So I have like a lot of outline except for fun and games right now. And so that, but then I wanted to start writing too. So I started kind of rewriting my first like three, four chapters.

is what I've now rewritten as I've restarted. Yeah. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. And I'm, yeah, I'm not a person who, like I have a couple of friends.

My friend Lane Fargo who wrote, they never learn and temper and has a great book coming out in 2025 called the Favorites, which is going to be like the book of the year, honestly. Oh, I'm so excited. Yeah, it's going to be great.

It's like Wuthering Heights in the world of ice dancing. So like it's, yeah. People, it's great. People are going to be excited about it. And I'm excited about it. And, but anyway, she's somebody who can sit down and create an outline and write to the outline. And I am jealous because that seems efficient as hell. But like that's not who I am. So like I actually wind up using an outline after I've written my first draft. Like there are things where it's like, so for this third book that I'm writing, I do know certain points. Like I know my midpoint according to

to Save the Cat, which is kind of the moment that like reverses everything that's come before. Yeah. I mean like a couple of my... Yeah. Exactly. And so I have certain parts like that in my mind kind of like, but I find it really helpful to use it after I've written a first draft because then I kind of put it over and

I say like, where are my beats not hitting where they should be? You know what I mean? Like I wrote the Hurricane Blonde and my midpoint was 64,000 words in. And that is too long allegedly. It's not the mid. Unless you're writing 130,000 word book, which shockingly no one wanted from me. That's weird. Like, it is too long. So, so I find it I can be really useful too for like, not just plotting, but also pacing because you can start to be like, oh, this, this doesn't happen at the right moment. Yeah. Like that to me, I think is like really useful. Yeah. That makes sense. And the other thing, this, you said you've been having some epiphanies. as well and you kind of shared some of them already but my epiphanies are like when you start trying something new like all of your like all of your like head trash so like however it comes at you it comes out you harder basically oh so i'm having that experience too where like i'm someone

who likes to have structure but then like also like is it something to like be creative and and like not it's what I go towards immediately is like I was realizing that I was starting to get to point where I was like if I learn enough then I will know how to make the perfect book oh for sure well if you figure it out let me know starting to write yeah right totally but I like do you mean um within structure specifically or like just the whole process I think sometimes I would like delay writing by being like I just need to know more about writing versus just like writing. For sure, for sure. Yeah, totally.

That like so resonates with me because I still love reading a lot of craft books. Like when you were saying like I don't know how to write a book, I was laughing in sex. I was like, I don't either. And I've done it twice. Like I don't know. Every time I sit down and I'm like, now what pieces go into a scene? You know?

And so like I really feel. I feel like you have to relearn it over it, which is so funny because story is also like so inherent in us. I mean, not just because we are readers and like consume TV shows and movies, but like it's just like a part of the human experience. It's like how we have like learned to like be people is to like tell stories about our lives and who we are and our friends and these different things. But yet it is actually surprisingly hard to sit down and be like, now how do I replicate this in a book? I've read thousands of books and I don't know how to like do it. Yeah. That's why I was telling Tyler one point I was like, I was like, you know what's hard about writing a book is you have to write so many scenes.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess you do. I was like, no, you have to write so many scenes. Totally. And they all have to be doing like four things at a time. Like, you know, upping the stakes and setting like, you know, creating this deep setting and like moving the plot forward and like all of these things. And you're like, well, sure. I don't, you know, it's, yeah. And it's like, and everything should speak to your main theme. And you're like every single scene. Totally. Totally. And it's, I don't know. It's, yeah, it's a hard one. I mean, I love it. And I hope you're loving the process too. But it is, if you figure out how to write a perfect book, let me know. Like I am interested. I know. I know. It really does get hung up in my mind or like sometimes all like there was something. What did I hit? Like I. I hit like 5,000 for the week or something like in my first time back. Yeah. And like I texted Tyler and it's like I just hit 5,000.

Like that's so exciting. And then like 10 minutes later I was like, I bet all of it is terrible. Oh 10 minutes later I was like, but it's so bad. And like what am I even doing? 100%. I totally like I feel like there you swing between these like extreme goals when you're writing. Like I've had that experience too where I'll be all like. write a sentence and be like, am I the greatest writer who's ever lived? And then I'll

like reread it and be like, this is trash and like, I shouldn't be allowed it to like exist in the world. Exactly. And it's like within a 10 minute span and you're just like, oh God. Like this is a lot. Yes. Okay. I have I have to tell you this story because it fits. It fits this so much. But I'm now like on writer talk like TikTok picked up on the fact that I'm clearly like Googling stuff about writing. And Danielle Valentine, like just gives like all this like great advice so like I am watching hers all the time and so recently she's been like or recently she had one come out about the perfect first page and like she basically explains like she read slush for an agent or an editor and for years and and she's an author so like she's

like I know what would like make us reject like books just based off the first page so then She gives her like three things. But that TikTok did really well. And so then basically she then did a TikTok a couple of days later and was saying that she was going to like open it up because people liked the topic so much that she was going to open it up to her substack subscribers where you could send your first page in and she would like break them down based off of that. So this like all happened in like the first like two weeks that I was writing again.

And I was like, well, I have to send it. So I got my first page. I sent it to her on substack. And at the time of the TikTok, she was like, she was like, I just posted this. So sooner, like, if you send it now, there's like a good chance I'm going to get to it. And she posted like 50 minutes before. So that's why I was like, I need to send it immediately. So I send it off kind of with the belief that like I probably really did send it like really early.

Like she really might get to mine. And so like a couple of days passed. And then like the one morning I have like one of those moments where I'm like, yeah, but everything I wrote is probably terrible. So I like mentioned not like that I like completely go down it, but I have a moment where I'm like, yeah, but like what is it? Why am I even writing a book? What is it about? So like that's in my head in the morning. And then in the afternoon I see an email from Daniel Valentine and it says a perfect first page.

okay i'm glad it's not just me that had the reaction so i'm like oh my god i knew it i knew i had it in me i knew i wrote a perfect page hell yeah that's awesome she's emailing me back about it no this is just an email announcement of her a perfect page like series i was so with you i was like holy shit you did it you know like I'm like flying high for like 30 seconds. I'm like, oh my God. Because it doesn't say Danielle Valentine from Substack.

Like it just says it's from her. Right, right. That she's just like, I found it. You're the one. Can we publish it now? Here's a million dollars. Yeah. For sure.

Like 30 seconds. I was like, I knew I had it in me. I knew it. So like, yeah, like the same day I was like, oh, this is terrible. But then I get an email and I'm like, oh, I knew that I knew it was perfect. I knew I did it. Yeah. So did she ever?

Not yet. Okay. Not yet. It was only like two. It was probably like 10 days ago. Got it. Maybe two weeks ago. She's done two.

Okay. So I think there have been like one each. I think she's doing one a week. And neither of them were mine yet. So we'll see. But every time I see the email, I'm like, I love it. And I'm going to like put that out there for you.

And maybe that'll just be her comment again. It's just like a perfect page. No, no. Perfect. I know. Like she had noose for everyone else. She didn't have it for me. Oh, gosh. I love that. She has great content. For anyone who is thinking about writing, her content is so good. Totally. I've seen, I've seen that video you're talking about where she kind of breaks down like what she, what she can tell about a manuscript in the first couple of pages. But I need to look at more of her, more of her stuff because that's very useful to know for all of us.

no matter what level you're at. I mean, I believe in my heart of hearts, Ashley Winstead writes a perfect page. Like probably I kind of feel that way too. Yeah. She like sits down in her pink like glittery jumpsuit, which I have seen her where she looks amazingly cool. She's like Taylor Swift and like just like pranks out something perfect. And I'm like, that sounds about right. But for most of us, it takes a couple tracts. She is the Taylor Swift of the thriller world for sure. Oh, she really is. She really and she's just like the nicest, warmest, funny, smart. Like, yeah, I have a crush on her for sure. But like. Yeah. That's partly course on this podcast. Oh, yeah. The unofficial actually Winston appreciation podcast. Yes. Totally. For sure. Yeah. And it's like I feel like a thing that I didn't know about writing before I wrote my first book.

Like this is one of the one of the few things I feel like I do know now having written two books is like how much your book will change and like how much revision you'll. do and that like I have there have been times where I've agonized over like you know making the page perfect and I think now I'm out of place and that's where I'm trying to just crank out words for essentially like my zero draft is like it's all going to change it's all going to shift you have a chance to make it better I can rewrite that sentence I stared at the memorial memorializing the dead men anytime but I just need something that I can shape and change yeah and like so I just keep trucking is like my best advice about like your your draft is just get through it and then yes make it better and they can change it's a good yeah i do like to try to control things a little bit too so

who doesn't you know with them right that's true doesn't want to control at all yeah yeah yeah well i'm going to keep writing i'm like literally especially with imposter syndrome the way to get past it is to just keep writing and then eventually i will have a draft that i can revise And I think like knowing, I think it's so much easier. Like it's easier for me to say this to you than it is for me to say it to myself. But like I think that imposter syndrome is just part of it. You know what I mean? Like I think that anybody who's a creative, I mean, I think there's probably a few like mediocre white men out there who are like, no, I got it.

But like the rest of us are like, you know, that there's this kind of swing between I have something interesting to say. And then also like, I don't, why would anyone ever want to listen to me? you know and it's like it's finding somewhere in between those that you can land some of the time I think that's the hardest part but like I think I think we all feel that I feel that all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a humbling experience. For sure. It has lots of different facets to the whole experience. Totally. Totally. And Goodreads is a humbling experience as a writer too. Like I don't I don't check out my own stuff on Goodreads anymore because those are those opinions don't belong to me, you know? Oh my gosh, I know.

That's what like sometimes even with some books that like I don't like, I'm like, I don't, sometimes I just don't want to review it because I'm like, but someone wrote this and like they loved it. So like I just sometimes I don't even review it if it wasn't for me. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

It's like a whole other kind of thick skin that I haven't thought about having. And I don't think about it now. You know what I mean? Like there will be plenty of time to think about it. Just think about the draft now if you can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'll just stay away from it anyway. I know about it. Totally.

Some people and some people like really, um, some people, I have friends who like really enjoy reading all of the reviews on good reads, even like the ones that aren't so complimentary. Um, for me, it just feels like, you know, I think anyone's entitled to whatever opinion they want to have to have about my book, but it also doesn't mean that I have to read it. You know what I did that like that's, that's their opinion. It's once you put something out into the world that's for the readers to interpret, but like, it's just going to make me sad. I know, I know. Yeah, like, why opt for sadness? Right. Right. Are you, are you reading anything right now that's like really striking you or have you read anything lately? Well, okay, so lately, yes, I just DNFs one yesterday.

So like at the literal moment, I just started while we were burning by Sarah Coffey. It's a debut that comes out April 16th. And so I'm still like I'm in the first like 10% still, but the tone of the main character, oh my gosh, I love. Like yeah. I know it's cat and mouse. So eventually I'm going to shift into another one. But this first character that I'm in, I'm like, she is so fun. And that is like, that'll carry me through a book if like the tone is pretty fun. So I'm pretty optimistic about that one. That's great. Another one, what did it? I read most recently where I was like, well, I just finished and she's going to be on the podcast next week in the future. So a book called The Nightside by M.M. Deluca. And she actually DM to me and was like asking

if I like was looking for other guests and like basically pitched the book, the night side to me that had like come out of December and I hadn't heard of it. So I read that this week and it was so good. So the short pitch is like a woman who's been living in England for the last 20 years, I think 20 years is basically called back to her hometown in Montana because her mom who is a grifter that she, ran away from 20 years ago her mom is officially missing and they think she's dead so she's like called back to it and so like all the memories of like this small town that still like hates her and her mom because her mom like grifted everybody I think that's a verb um like she has to confront all the

memories and like everything she tried to get away from and figure out what happened to her mom at present And it like, it just had all these creepy atmospheric vibes. And I loved it. I really loved it. And it reminded me of so many books. Like for some reason, like you reminded me of where the Crododd sing because she's like the outsider, which then then it also also reminded me of midnight is the darkest hour because you like, this friendship with her like one childhood friend who like is also like her first love is like really important to the story too.

And Stone Cold Fox. the whole mom is a grifter it was just like so many of my favorite books so I'm not surprised I love it the night side by m m deluca I'm writing it down yeah adding it to my to read list which is yeah not small but I'll prioritize that one that sounds great yeah and then she's going to be on the podcast next week so that'll be fun I'm preview yeah exactly eagerly anticipating that episode Yeah. Were you reading? Were you reading while you were in France? Yes, yes. I got to France and I looked at my suitcase and I had brought 10 books and many of them were hard back and I realized I didn't bring enough clothes and I was like, well, this is a choice I made. I had like four. I had like four outfits for a month, but I had enough books. So we were good. That's what matters. Yeah, the important part. So I read a lot of great stuff. One that was a standout that I mentioned earlier was called Disappearing Earth by Julia Phillips. And it was a book. I think it came out in 2019. And it was I think shortlisted for the National Book Award. And it was her debut. And this woman is like an honest to God genius. And like it's, the structure of the book was so unique.

It's not like anything I've ever read before. So the first chapter, it's set in this really remote part of Russia, kind of like Siberia, it's called Kamchatka at like just like kind of the end of the earth. And it's just like icy. And the first chapter of the book, these two girls go missing. And every chapter thereafter is a month in the year that follows their disappearance. It told from the point of view of different women. women in the community. And so it's almost like interconnected short stories. And so some of the

stories like really feature more about the investigation than others. Some of them are more kind of tangential. But it does kind of all of them show you how people in the community have been affected by it, even if they weren't like directly like part of the family. And it is just so genius. And it was like I said, it was like something that just knocked me flat where I was like, like how did how did she write this and she has a new book coming out called bear um that just got a starred review that from um i think publishers marketplace and they essentially said this is genius and i was like yeah this woman is a genius like she's incredible yeah telling anyone who's tell a story through that many perspectives and it's still a story is wild it was beautiful it was beautiful and um

and then right now i'm also reading i just started i have it right in front of me so i'll show it um Everybody knows by Jordan Harper, which I have heard from so many people is like a great L.A. Noir, and it came out in the last year. And I had bought it and was like almost intimidated to start reading it. And I was right. I am furious about how good this book is. Furious. Oh my gosh.

I need to add it. Yeah. It's like, especially for your book too because it's like, currently there's, I'm not that far into it. I'm like two chapters into it and I can already tell I'm going to be blown away. but there's two different perspectives both of people who are kind of tangentially part of like Hollywood fixer PR firms where it's like somebody has a problem and so one of them as a young publicist who's like job is to like make the problems go away and another one is like an enforcer who like makes the problems go away in a different way and it's like I am yeah it's so good

it's so good and I'm just like I'm in awe of it I'm trying to take it apart from like a right early point to look at the craft tricks he's using to try to like understand it better. But I'm also just like, God damn it. It's so good. I wish I'd written this, you know? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm a sucker for the like fixer storyline. Me too. I just am. It's Ray Donovan and all of that. Totally. Totally. And like real life Anthony Pelacano is someone who I know a little bit about. But like if you don't know him, he was like a notorious Hollywood fixer. And you should look it up because his Wikipedia page is wild. Oh my gosh.

I need to. I'm going to. Yeah, I love that theme. Actually, another one, an inconvenient woman by Stephanie. It's a French last name. I can't totally remember it right now. But one of the main characters is a female fixer, but she calls herself a sin eater.

I know. It's kind of more dramatic. That is. It's more flare for the dramatic. But, oh, that one, fantastic. I'm writing it down. An inconvenient woman. Yeah, you will love that one.

Oh, yeah. That sounds right at my alley. Sounds right at my alley. Sorry. I love that. I got dad jokes for days. I'm always here for a pun. Good.

But yeah, now I'm going to need to read everybody knows. Yeah, it's my appreciation. It's really good. I have like 16. net galleys right now, which is fine because like someone going to August. Right. But I've just been like sticking to my, which has been good. I've been having good experiences with it. But I've been kind of stuck there. So now I need to need to add everybody knows to the mix. Totally. I know what you mean. I don't get asked to blur books as often as I'm sure some some writers do, but I do get asked very often.

And I always love it. And it's great and it's an honor to be asked. But then sometimes you're like, oh, I'm on a deadline for these and yet I have all these other books calling to me too. You know, it's like hard to yeah, balance. Yeah, it does get different. Sometimes I'm like there might be backlist I'm missing out on right now. Right. We'll see. I'll get to them. I know. We could have a whole separate conversation. I have like thoughts about like we're at we're at such a moment that like backlist kind of gets there's so many books coming out every week. And so it's like it's, you know, backlist gets kind of forgotten. And yet there's so many great backlist books out there. I like started including like a backlist. specific section in my author newsletter where I was like highlighting books that I've read that

like I really loved that came out before like 2020 because yes they're still out there and they need love you know I know I know yeah there are so many that come out but yeah I mean I want people to be published so I guess also that totally yeah yeah I yeah I want I want all the books to be published and I also want all the books to get all the love and I don't know how we're going to bridge that gap but I don't know either not with job Like I need to get rid of my day job. Seriously. I know, I know.

I kind of a little bit have this fantasy in my head of like one day it'll all slow down and I'll be able to read every book I bought. And like, I don't think that day's coming. Sadly. There's so many. There really are. Yeah. There are. Well, did you have, did you say that you had any Hollywood questions or you said you had something?

Maybe. Um, the, oh, um, for like, I just been about the Oscars. Maybe that's, oh, yes, it was the Oscars. I think, yes. Yeah. Did you have any, like, favorite looks or favorite moments or anything? Well, Emerson, I think is adorable. Um, like, poor dress split. That was so sad. I know. And I know she gets so anxious. I'm, that's her right. Yeah, but I know she is really anxious about that stuff. So I'm like, that would be, me like when the people keep showing like how like scared she looked when she saw she won. I don't think she thought she was going to win either though. Yeah, totally. She was totally shocked. Yeah. And then she was like, oh, God, this stuff makes me anxious.

And I was like, I get it. I get it. For sure. But she was sweet. Yeah, super sweet. Super sweet. And I loved the I am Ken performance for me like one night. I thought that was great.

And I love him. Yeah. Did you have. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, you're fine. Uh, I was literally just going to say he's like so amazing in what he commits to.

And also I'm super excited for his new one, the fall guy. That one looks really fun too. Totally. Especially after seeing him and Emily Blunt like do their presenter thing. Like they had such cute like chemistry. Like I'm sure that's going to transfer to the movie. It's great. So I know.

I'm excited for that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was fun. I don't know if there were looks that like totally stood out to me. Yeah. Erica Ferreira looked amazing.

Hers was so pretty. She looked so good. It like shimmered. That was, that was really pretty. I didn't, some people are like obsessively pissed about Emily Blunt and flows.

The, the floating whatever strap. Why are people so upset? Like, I've heard so many people are like, it looks like you've got your shoulders in your ears. Like, people like, I hate it. I'm like, we hate it?

Like, it didn't seem like that much. Like that much of a like I thought one, I thought flow looked amazing. I thought she did too. She looked. I'm like, how are you distracted by? Right. Like what else are we seeing? Yeah.

No, I agree. And like, um, I think it was cool. I think like I, I, with Emily, with Emily Blunts in particular, I, it felt like it fit her a little less well than the, than the Florence Pughes did. But yeah, I thought it was like a cool architectural. Yeah. You know, like, I. that that was a cool element. I will say, though, I saw somebody retweet a meme that was like, these dresses are like, you know, when you sit on a roller coaster and it's the thing that comes

down over the top? Oh, yeah. I saw that and I did laugh. I was like, that was kind of like that for sure. Yes. Yeah, some of the memes are funny. Some people are like fashion people are like, they're ugly. I'm like, are you kidding me? No, I thought it was cool. I always like to see. Yeah. I like that when people try something a little different too, because I feel like sometimes you see the same dresses over and over like versions of the same dresses and so it's nice to see like oh they're trying something well and like florences is so like dune the whole dune press tour has been like it's a very different thing so like having something that looked really futuristic also to me makes sense with her stuff but i've also seen some people who are like i'm sick of the dune people treating it like

the press tour like a met gala and i'm like why are you so pressed about it like Right. The movie is just like very visual and different and like very sci-fi and they're just matching the vibes. But some people are like people get worked up about fashion basically. They really do. That's a really good point. Like I sometimes I like stuff, but I don't think I ever like, I don't get passionate on

the other side. Like I don't really get mad. Totally. It's like it feels like there's times when people take stuff like that personally, which I don't totally understand where you're like. Yeah. you know, whatever. Like, cool. Florence, she likes to, like, wear, like, transparent stuff that sometimes her nipples

around. I think it's awesome. Yeah. You know what I mean? People take it personally. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. She really does. I mean, totally. Like, did those, did those nipples kidnap your family? And that's why you're mad about it? Like, what happened? I know, exactly. Or, like, people who are getting mad that, like, underwear's pants is a thing kind of again. I'm like, who cares? Like, you've seen them in swimsuits and, And Victoria's the same thing. It's like, this is not that weird. Yeah, totally.

And Katie Maloney wore it to, well, that was a while ago. I feel like that was like three or four months ago. She wore it on some watch what happens live and everyone walks their game minds. Totally. As they do. On the sacred couch, watch what happens live. Right. So sacred.

That's a good word for it. Do you watch, I can't remember. Do you watch reality TV? Um, I watch some. My toxic trait as the kids say is that I read the recaps of a lot of reality TV more than I watch. Um, but I am, um, armchair analyzing all of the couples on love is blind and we'll continue to do so forever. I watched, I think I watched the first two seasons and then I just haven't ever gotten back to it probably because I'm watching like the Vanderpump rules and Beverly Hills and all of that. and if not I'm reading, but the seasons I watch, that show is addictive. It really is. And like it puts you in this. It puts you.

And I think this is probably true of all reality dating shows. Although I feel like The Bachelor tries to create this like fantasy of what a relationship could be, which is like very strange to me. Love is blind tries to like, I don't know. I mean, they keep calling it an experiment. And I'm like, I don't know. I read a think piece that called it this. stand for prison experiment but make it sexy. And I was like, that's what it is, like, for sure. It kind of is. Yeah. But I mean, I think it lends itself to us sitting there and kind of dissecting,

like, why isn't this working or like what's going on here, you know, like, and this season in particular feels like a case study for like therapists and training of like, what family baggage are we bringing in? What like attachment theories is happening here? Like, it's very, when you've been through it, you do see it. You're like, oh. Oh, yeah, totally. And it's so much easier to see in somebody else, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yes, the Schadenfreude of it all kind of.

Are you like, oh, holy. These people. Right. They can't see themselves like as if we all don't have blind spots, you know? But like, okay. That's what, have you seen, you probably haven't because you didn't mention it. But the traitors, I got turned on to the traders. I haven't been watching it now.

It is, it's definitely, it's so entertaining. It's very much like a comfort reality TV show. But when you were saying the Sanford prison experience or experiment experience, like it's an amusement park. Right. They sold tickets to it. People chose to be there. Yeah. But like the shtick or whatever of the traitors is there are the faithfuls in the traders.

And like early on in the game two to four, it varies people of like probably 14 people are chosen to be traitors. but like the rest of the group doesn't know that they're the traitors and so then each week the traitors murder someone and so it has like um kind of like uh and then there were none vibes too it doesn't like nods to that and you're like in a Scottish castle I love that and so like everyone's getting picked off and you're trying to figure out who are the traitors but it's been donning on me like the longer you listen to the season like the people are like I'm not a traitor Like, I am a trustworthy person and blah, blah, blah. But, like, none of them are actually traitors.

It's a game. Right. But, like, the further you get in, people get, like, so offended by, like, the idea of things and also, like, feel so vindicated in hating whoever a traitor is. But, like, it's all made up. Right. So it's making me think of that, too. But it's, it's, like, very fun and very, like, it's like a genre.

It's very genre. That's so, yeah. That's so interesting. And that's like so, like, now I'm thinking about your book and what you shared about it. And like, I think we all know in 2024 or we all should know that like reality TV shows are not unfiltered reality. Right. Like these people are being prodded by producers in some ways. There's also probably a level of like the people who choose to go on these shows or participate in this are a certain kind of person.

So like some people are all selecting out. And then of course you have the editing room, which may or may not show the like literally. truth of what happened. But we're watching it thinking like we're watching a documentary and that's not true. So it's and so like what you're talking about is like so interesting because it's like a layer on top of that, right? And I'm also like playing a traitor in the game, but like that's not who I really like. I don't know. It's so interesting to think about and the ways that like reality TV is like mediating our idea of what reality is. Yes. That's what that's what I've been writing about because that's like that would be a theme probably.

of what I'm writing about is like, because especially it's very meta to say this as someone who podcasts. Yeah. But I also listen to a lot of podcasts and I watch a lot of realities TV. And I in my brain have a like, I think I know who Lala Kent is. Oh, for sure. The internet pump rules from this tiny sliver of like how much of her that I've seen. But like we create like a full picture of someone based off of like the.

sliver of information that we get. And that's what I, that's like what I've been trying to, like, write about is like that, not dichotomy necessarily, but just like the phenomenon of that, kind of like, what is that called? Why can I think of it? Parassocial relationships. Yes. Like the way you, like, think you know the whole person just because, like, you listen

to them a lot, but you don't. So. Totally. Totally. And that, like, at the moment in history we're at, it's never been easier to do something like this where it's like, you may. maybe in some way spend more time with the celebrity than you do with your friends because you're like seeing them like every week or contention. You know what I mean? But you don't actually

know this person. And like, yeah, they don't actually, this isn't necessarily how they're showing up in like who they, they're quote unquote real life. And then I'm also always fascinated by the idea too of like, I don't think you can go on something like that and not have it to affect who you are in some way. You know what I mean? Like even even. Even. after the shows. And like maybe, maybe to different degrees. But like, I don't think the Kardashians are ever going to be people who aren't aware of themselves in such a public space, even if they were to cut off all, you know, access to their TV show. Like it just now once you've lived that way, like it has to fundamentally change you, you know? Yes. That's what. So what's interesting is I

listened to Stasi Schroeder hasn't been on Banderpump Rules for four years now, I think. something like four years but i kept listening to her podcast and she has a patreon so like i've still spent time with her totally for the last four years but still hanging out yeah i feel like some of her stuff is what will help with my book too because she's talked about what you just said where like therapists who um work with like uh reality stars specifically like it really is something thing to like specialize in because no one else's life is experienced where like you have a knock down drag out fight possibly with like your partner yeah but it's on camera and then you work through it in real life and things like get normal and then four to six months later you see it all

and like all of america sees it again and so now everyone has an opinion on it and maybe everyone's on your side and you're like yeah fuck you if you like feel all your anger again yeah so like relive it and re like process it and therapist it six months later and the lag is just like it would be so hard to move on from things when you're just like always having that happen and that's why she's had people reach out now about doing reality again and she's like I'm not doing it like yeah her perspective she like has her kid she has two kids now and loves her life and she's like I'm not I'm not doing it again yeah yeah it's like she knows like that it like made her a different person too she talked about um with the reunions so sometimes reunions well housewife reunions have always been like two

two weeks like it's a two-parter um and then like van der prompruel started out just a one part or when they started to have a reunion. And then it got to two. But then one of her last reunions, she said she like remembered, you get paid per episode. So if there's enough material for three, you get paid for an extra episode. And so she started picking extra fights. Sure. Because of the incentive was to make more money. I didn't think about that, but that makes so much That's altered that. Yeah. That makes so much sense. And like to your point too about the like having a fight repairing and then revisiting it six months later. And then like imagine like America has opinions on your boyfriend and on you and how you conducted yourself in this moment. And like it would be so weird. It would be so destabilizing. You know? Yes. I agree. It would never be for me. I'm so fascinated by it. Same. I could. I would never. I would never do it. it. Same. The last couple of months, I have found myself weirdly fascinated with wrestling documentaries.

And that I've never watched professional wrestling in my life, nor do I until I start. But I have become really fascinated with, like, Vice did this series of called The Dark Side of the Ring that was kind of like the true crime look at like big scandals and like deaths and murders and all this different stuff that have happened in the world of professional wrestling. And the piece that I kept finding really fascinating, because I think I just find this idea fascinating, which is like the same with reality TV, is like, they create this persona, but they never, like, we all know wrestling is quote unquote fake. But like, it's fake, but they're actually also doing the stunts and like have a lot of typical trauma around it. But like, they create this persona that they live in. Like there are

people like the first documentary I watched was about um randy macho man savage um who was married to a woman who was kind of part of his pick crew but they got married seven years before they like told the public they were married and they told the public they were married by having this like really big like wedding ceremony in the ring where it's like oh my gosh we're married now but like nine months later they actually divorced but then they had to pretend to keep being married until it made sense for their storyline for them to like end it like and you're just like it's it's almost like this art becoming life type thing but like like you create an illusion but then you're also living it like that I'll find endlessly fascinating and I think that happens in a couple of different realms like professional wrestling

but I also think it happens with reality stars and like even like actors or public figures you know like you create this like persona that you're selling and but then you have to actually live that that's very strange that's what I as everyone has become more mesmerized by Taylor Swift. Yes. So have I. But I think her life is still very similar. Like I'm not saying she's not who she seems like.

And I'm not saying she's not relatable, but also like she is a billionaire. She's not as relatable as like we're thinking. I know. So when you're saying that it even made me think of like, because like she and Joe were together for her previous boyfriend were together for almost seven years. But a lot of people kind of thought. I mean, Midnight kind of sounds like a breakup album. If you do listen to it.

Some people thought maybe things weren't as good as they were. But it was announced. Like the breakup was announced. She started the Erez tour and then had like four or five weekends in a row. And then she had one weekend off. And then she went for like some like 20 weeks straight, something crazy like that. But the announcement was on the one weekend that she wasn't touring. And I'm like, I don't think they just happened to break up.

that day. No, for sure. They did not. No. It was like very planned. No, and I agree. I am not as well versed in the Swiftyverse and they frankly are a group of fans that frighten me. I'm not going to like stick my foot on either side. Right. But right. But like, yeah, I mean, I think that it's very possible she's monetizing something that like she does have authentically, but also we should all be aware that like he's not actually our best friend you know what i mean like this is something she's selling to us and like sure she might go shop at target and feel just like us she also has a private plan and like you said she's a billionaire she's actually not just like us you know like she's not it's both things and like there is a very like hardcore person who inside there who dominates that way

that i think we like like to pretend isn't there and i'm like no to like do that like you have a like powerful side of your personality that is obsessed with like going after like breaking records and stuff 100% which is also like I totally and like I think that that's what's so interesting to me about her from an outside of like a fan but not like a Swifty. I think it's like I love her ambition and her drive and yet I think that that is also a thing that is like strategically kind of sits in the back you know what I mean like she broke up with a dude because her fans made her. Like, that's not, not everyone would make that choice, you know?

Right. A problematic dude for sure. But I mean, I think it was more like her fans were like, I don't want to love somebody who loves somebody problematic. And she was like, agreed, which is like, okay. I was like, right. I know, I know, because he is, he is problematic, I think. I remember about that time.

But yeah, that was interesting. That was a really interesting blip, like blip, like a couple of, weeks. Yeah. Yes. And everyone was like, Taylor, girl, what are you doing? And then her PR team was like, you know, never mind. We don't need him. And then you're like, most all-American guy that we can. Totally. Totally. Exactly. Like, uh, we're going full football king, you know, prom king, prom queen. It's going to be great. The Super Bowl will be our prom. So we have another hard cut because my internet just decided to not be a thing today, which is like as a podcast. are kind of problematic. So I will be calling my internet people tomorrow, which is also like not a phone call I want to make. But you know, here. Yeah, that's no fun. Do I ever want to make? I know, right. Well, I kind of love the hard cuts because I feel like people watching it are going to be

like what happened in the in between and we can be like, maybe we were hiding bodies. We don't know. You don't know what happened. You don't know what our PR conversation inspired us to do. Exactly. We were just like, oh, is the end. internet. Not nefarious deeds. Yes. Yeah. Well, clearly I am, I'm very, like, mesmerized by the idea of people who, like, mitigate their, and everyone mitigates their public persona. That's, like, the other part of it. Like, I'm not showing my whole self all the time either. But I'm still really fascinated by people who, like, heavily curate the persona of other people. perceive of them or consume of them. Totally. And when it becomes like your life and also maybe like the way you support yourself and like all these really messy, you know, things. And I'm sure people go on reality shows for a bunch of different reasons. Yeah. When I when I see people do it like for love is blind,

where it's just kind of regularish people, you're kind of like, oh boy, you're signing yourself up for like all of America to have opinions about you. That's a nightmare to me. It sounds terrible. Like I don't totally take everyone's opinion of me that seriously. No. But when you have so many people talking about you, I feel like it's hard to like not care a little bit about whose size they're on.

If like vulture is putting out like a think piece about like your behavior about something. Oh boy. That would be enough ideal. Like the whole Megan Fox of it all for love is blinds. Like poor girl. I mean, girl. And yeah.

No, no, that's really all I have to say. I know. And I've been reading stuff where she's felt like she's had to give an apology to Megan Fox as though that's a thing, which I think is wildly crazy and like also emblematic of like, I don't know, weird ringers we put women through,

which like, for the record, she does look a little bit like Megan Fox in the face for sure. Especially early transplants. former is Megan Fox. Like when Megan Fox looked more like Megan Fox, not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with the work she had done. But she does a lot more like OG Megan Fox. She does. And like, you know, you can talk about like, we could commandeer this into a love is blind podcast if you want. But like you can talk about. I haven't actually seen it. So. Fair. I don't know if I know enough,

but maybe I do. That's fair. She definitely like deployed it in a certain way, I think, to kind of draw this guy's attention. But like, which, whatever, like, even me saying that is just an opinion. But, like, I think it's kind of crazy that now she's having to, like, come out and somehow feel like she's duped people. And I'm like, no, no, that's insane. Like, let's not, that doesn't have to be a part of the narrative. I agree.

I know. Now I need to watch it. Now I'm getting more and more tempted. I just have so many books to read. Right. Read the books. Honestly, you don't need love. blind read the books you know where love is blind i know i've got vanderpump rules in my life so that's my like

reality for the week for sure for sure oh my gosh he's wild the stand of all of it all is just wild i so i have not been watching that show i don't think i've ever really watched vanderpum rules but i have been reading a lot of the like thing pieces you can't help it he keeps running his mouth in like the dumbest ways like totally he's so textbook in the fact that like he truly he believes his thoughts and his reality so much that he really doesn't understand how some of the things are coming across. Which is also textbook. Which again is so interesting to think about through the lens of reality TV show where on some level you have to know that you're going to be one observed and two manipulated by

either producers or editing or whatever to like come off a certain way. So the idea that you would be so unaware of what your actions might look like from the outside when it is in fact your job. Yeah. It's very strange to me. And he'll just the and he forgets that he's on camera. He forgets that there's like this proof of stuff. Yeah. There'll be times that he confidently lies about something and they have footage that contradicts it. You're like, bro, you are like you have lost the scripts. Like oh yeah, you have forgotten that your life has been filmed. It's he's so crazy. But then he's also interesting and van der Pump in general is interesting to me. more about everyone's reaction to everything happening.

Like that's what's interesting to me at large is like the way even like casual tweeters are like coming up with their opinions and stuff. Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, I'm with you about that too. That's kind of how I also feel about love is blind where it's like it's not even just the show. It's also just like everyone's reactions to it. The think pieces that come out of it, like different like layers of it.

People on TikTok dissecting things. I don't know. It's like it's so interesting. Again, it goes back to that parasycial and I'm really excited to read your book. I know. I'm getting, now you like already know that I need, I'm going to have to send you something because it related to something we were just talking about. And I was like, well, now I have to, I won't share it completely on the pod yet, but I'm definitely going to send it to you because it. Oh, I would love that. It lined up with something we were talking about so much. Oh, I'm excited. And then I'm just going to write back in all caps, a perfect page. Oh my gosh. That is a best.

callback. Oh my gosh. Well, we have, I've had a lot of fun. Oh, me too. This has been a blast. Tech mishaps. Yes. But I just, yeah, we always have fun chatting. I know. This has been a blast. Anytime you have space in your calendar, I would love to be thought of. I love our conversations. Yeah. Well, I will have, well, I just, I just totally. confuse myself. Basically, I'm going to record, like at the beginning of this episode, there's going to be me explaining that it's like shifting to one podcast. So that's where I was just glitching. But so kind of as you guys heard at the beginning, the plan is to just kind of rotate multiple different co-hosts is the way I'm approaching it. There's a small chance that some

of one of these listeners listens to the Taylor Strucker show. That's where I got the inspo. There's a podcaster who I've always listened to and now she has a Patreon, but she does a daily show. So she puts out five episodes a week. Mostly about pop culture is like that's like the biggest umbrella. But she probably has, I feel like in her case, not that everyone needs all these details, but she has like 15 different co-hosts maybe and like some are every week and some just like pop up randomly. So. So, yeah, basically, I've been inspired by her model of doing that way, where it's like, now I like know multiple of her friends or like their interests. So I'm kind of excited to go that direction with this.

It's just like people that I chat with about books and have fun with. That is going to be the new focus. And Garrell pop up every now and then when he feels like it too. So. Amazing. Amazing. It'll be a fun rotation. It sounds super fun. I love that kind of brings a fresh aspect to it every time.

You know, it also kind of reminds me a little bit of like now what Sarah Marshall is doing with you're wrong about where she has like, oftentimes she'll have recurring guest hosts, but like it's almost always a new person every week kind of like and they like go back and forth on telling a story or talking about a topic and like I think it's a cool way to do it, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I like it. So yeah. You'll definitely be on in the future. That's for sure. Yay. I love our conversations. Kate. Thank you. for having me. Oh, also, can I share something that came in the mail today? Yes, totally. I got today in the mail the UK copy of the Hurricane Blonde. Look at this new cover. Oh, my gosh. That is beautiful.

You have so many cool covers. I really, I'm so lucky. I really am. I love the like rainbow wash of it. So I've just been like lying kinging it around my house all day today, even though there's no one with me. I would do. I would be look at this everybody. Yeah, exactly. And there's like, oh, there's no one here, Hallie, who do you think you're parading it to do on the ball? I would, I would. Your covers are so cool for that. I don't know if there are variants for the lady up, the lady upstairs, but there's just the one.

The Hurricane Blonde has so many cool covers. I know. I got, I got blessed with three very great covers for the Hurricane Blonde. And that's because we sold the UK rights. And so my UK publishing team, Alison and Busby did, they did two different. They did, I mean, they call it hardback, but it's just like a big paperback. And so that had a very. cool cover, which looked kind of almost like more genteel. And then this is the mass market paperback

that just came out. And I love it. Yes. And my original cover, I love too. I feel very lucky. I've loved all three, all three of them. Yeah. Covers are so fun. They are fun. Conceptualized stuff. And then like, someone asked me recently, she was like, what are you thinking for the cover? I was like, I don't know. I'm just trying to write the book right now. Totally. Totally. At the same time, I have no idea. For sure, for sure. And that's like, that's not how my brain works either. So I think my publishing team asked for some references. Yeah. And I sent them some like truly unhinged stuff where I was like emotionally this. And they were like, oh, that's amazing. Okay. But they turned out something great. So. Yeah. No, I agree. If anyone has not read the Hurricane blonde yet, you guys need to go read it. I obviously, we talked about noir earlier. And, the lady upstairs. Oh my gosh. So many Ray Donovan. Ray Donovan vibes as well. I love both of them. So thank you. If you guys haven't read either of those, you need to go read those.