Bookwild - A Trip to Greece, Widow's Bay, Summer House and More with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

Halley Sutton is back from a trip through Greece and Turkey, and she shares some of the highlights of her trip!  We also discuss books, tv shows and movies we've been watching and reading recently, and dive into THAT Summer House Reunion a la Scamanda. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

I am back with Hallie, who once again was a world traveler. I feel like I think you travel the most of all of our co-hosts. So I'm excited to hear about your trip. And we have some other stuff to talk about. We always have plenty of stuff to talk about. Thank you for her to be back. I'm so always so excited to chat with you. It's highlighted.

I know. When it goes too long, people will be like, where's Hallie? What's happening? I'm like, she'll be back. She'll be back. Buried under her to-do list for a bit. Yes. Yeah.

And, you know, jetting off to Greece and Turkey was also. Yeah. So what were the, what were like the big highlights there? So we started in Athens and incredible. I like, so I'm somebody, as you may recall from me being like rapturous about Egypt. I'm somebody who loves ancient history. And so I, like, walking up to the acropolis was unbelievable. The ruins are in such beautiful shape hearing like the stories about it.

I will say in Greece, all the ruins are uphill, which I was like, okay, you know, how did we get all this Marble up there? Yeah, and like straight uphill. But it was, it was lovely. It was incredible. So that was amazing. We took a day trip to see the Oracle at Delphi, which was like so cool. Again, straight uphill.

Oh, my gosh. It really made you work for those like hallucination fever dreams at the young girl. And then we went to the Temple of Poseidon, that's unisonian was amazing. But like probably my favorite thing in Greece was we saw the palace of Knos, which is on the island of Crete, which was part of the Minoan society. Now, where the book people might intersect with this is that this was where

the home of the Minotaur. So the myth of the Minotaur was on this, took place on Crete and was around this palace because the Minoans worshipped the bull now. Okay. Sorry. I've got my like geek face on. I love it. And no one's as excited as I am, but maybe you will be.

I've always excited. Do you remember, were you like, are you a big mythology person? Did you, do you remember? Yeah. Yeah, the myth of the Minotaur, right? Yes. The Athenians have to pay tribute to the Minoan society. And so every year they send seven boys, seven girls.

and they never see them again. And the rumor is they're fed to the minotar, which was a half bull, half man, monster who lived in the labyrinth on Crete. And the Greek side of the legend is that Queen Pacific, Pesipae, I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that name, falls in love with a bowl that is sent,

I think, by the gods and has sex with the bull, and then we have a minotar. We have a half bowl, half bowl, half-human monster that they just like lock up in the maze and feed the Athenian people. That's the myth as I understood it. So we get to the palace of Knos. Beautiful ruins like 5,000 years old. You know, 5,000 years ago, they've built a system that they have fresh water coming into

this palace, which is crazy. And it's from six miles away. They figured out how to like dam up the water to get it there. There's all these peacocks running around. Like it's just crazy. It was beautiful. But I got to experience the flip side of the myth, which was the kind of like myth busting. So the Minoans were a matriarchal society, which meant that women had, it wasn't necessarily

that women ruled over men, but men and women ruled equally. So there was a king and a queen, and they had equal power and equal, like, weight in the country. And so this, and then they build this palace that I think, was, if I'm not mistaken, five stories high, five thousand years ago, five stories high. Wow. Somewhere between, they believe 1,200 and 1,500 rooms in this palace. It's massive. And so the Athenians, what they think happened is the Athenians come over and see this palace, and they're like, it's a labyrinth because they're used to like five rooms. And so seeing a place that has this many rooms, they're like, obviously it's meant to be a maze and it's a trap.

was to some extent. It was kind of a protection barrier that if somebody would come and try to to invade and try to get to the king and queen, they would get lost in this massive palace, and then you would find them and you would kill them. So that's where the myth of the labyrinth comes from. It's not that it was an actual labyrinth housing a monster. It's that it was a well-built palace by a woman. And they were like, obviously it's monstrous. Same with the myth of the Minotaur, which comes out of the Minowans worshipping the bull. And they were like, We can't have ladies ruling. So this is like a myth that they're feeding back into the Athenian people about like why the matriarchy is bad.

It's like if you have ladies ruling, they're going to have sex with animals and create monsters. Like that is, it's all anti-woman propaganda. My little brain blew. Yes. They didn't say anti-woman propaganda on the tour I was on, but like I was there for it. I was just like, it was so crazy cool. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I've never been around anything that ancient either. So like it has to just be such a unique emotional experience being around something that's like existed that long. Yeah. It's it's like and when you can see, you know, some of its reconstruction and some of it's, but it just it like, I don't know, it just shifts for me the perspective. Like yeah. We are but specks of dust, you know, and like the winds of history. It's so crazy.

Yeah. It was amazing. And so that was a highlight. I promise I won't go too long. But then we also, so then we hopped over to Turkey and we went to Ephesus, which was crazy. Ephesus is like the, basically the oldest, best preserved Roman, ancient Roman city. And it's in Turkey. And the thing that they have left that is this like beautiful facade that. you might see is the old library. It's incredible. And they have this big amphitheater where I think they believe Paul preached to the apostles. And they have the House of the Virgin Mary where they believe that she lived after Jesus was crucified. And you can like dunk your face in holy water, which like, I'm not particularly religious, but I was like, can't hurt. You know, so it's in there. It was, it was great. And then we also went to the city of Troy, the ancient city, the they believed Troy was. And like our guide who was like, I was geeking out the whole time because like, I love everything about the Trojan War. And so I was like so excited to be there. And, you know,

they're telling you stuff that like is undoubtedly to some extent a myth or apocryphal and what they're telling the course. And I'm like, I don't care. He's like, you see that hill in the distance. We think that's where like the bones of Achilles were. And I'm just like, oh my God. It was so fun. It was just amazing. And then we went to Istanbul. That was wonderful. and then spent a few nights over in Capadocia, which is known for it. They call them fairy chimneys, fairy chimneys, where there are these kind of like strange, kind of phallic, like natural formations of rock, which, like, again, is interesting in that it has this, like, place in early Christian history, which I, again, didn't know that much

about, but it was like when Christians were chased out of Rome. or Jerusalem were different places. One of the places they went was this place in Cappadocha, and they would build homes into these fairy chimneys that are still there. So you can walk into them and you'll see that they'll be like, this was the kitchen and we know that because the ceiling's all burnt. But it's like these massive like stone pillars. Yeah, it's really crazy.

I'm like looking at it. This is weird. Yeah, isn't it crazy? Very phallic. Like, and that's really occurring though. Otherwise, they just inhabited them. Totally. They were like, you know where I want to go?

The big dick. That's what's like. Dicks will save us from persecution. Yeah. That's what it wants. Go into the dick. Except for these, except for these ones. That's so cool.

Yeah. So it was an amazing trip. It was like, it was just, I loved it. Loved every minute of it. Well, I have bookish questions now, too. Have you read Song of Achilles? So I haven't read Song of Achilles. I have read the Circe one.

I have sung of Achilles. And have you read Pyrnese? Oh, yes. I love that book. Okay. Because I've been hearing about both of those a lot. And you obviously mentioned Achilles and Labyrinths. So I was like, oh, yeah, I need to bump those up again.

Yeah. I, yeah, I liked Madeline. I love Madeline Miller's writing. I just haven't read all of them yet. But, and then, but when I was a kid, when I was probably like nine or 10, I read this book called Inside the Walls of Troll. by Clements McLaren. Okay.

And it is kind of a feminist retelling of the Trojan War. And it was my first experience with like the myth of the Trojan War at all. So like I don't comment with it like, you know, in high school, often you read the Odyssey and the Iliad. Yes. I before that was like actually Cassandra was maligned and like da-da-da-da-da. And like Helen didn't have any options. And that's why she had to run off with Paris, blah, blah, blah. And so the first half of the book is told from the point of view of Helen of Troy.

And then the second point of view is told from Cassandra, who is one of the women of Troy, who has allegedly the gift of prophecy is the one who sees the Trojan horse and is like, don't let them in. But no one believes her. No one believes her because she's a woman. And look how that turned out. Motherfuck. I know.

He continues the legacy onward. Yes, totally. And like, and it's still happening. And when we were in Troy, actually, one of the things that they took us to see. which is now like the actual region is called Chinacolet. But they took us to see the movie Troy from I think 2004. Yeah. They had created that big like Trojan horse replica for the movie and they donated it to the city of Chinakale.

And so it's like in their downtown. So our like tour guide took us and he was like, this is the horse of Brad Pitt. And I was like, awesome. And like took a bunch of pictures. Oh, that is so cool. Yeah. Are you excited for the new Odyssey? I am, I am. I am excited.

Astros. Where Telemachus is like, my dad's coming home. I was like, okay. Like, I don't know. Like, a little too much with the anachronistic. But I like overall, I think it's going to be very like sweeping and cool and beautiful. What about you? I'm very excited.

When we went to see Project Hail Mary, we have a 70 millimeter IMAX here. It's like that and wild geese are like the only reason to live in Indiana. But we got to see like a eight minute, five to eight minute prolog of it on the IMAX screen. And I was like, this is just going to be fun. I'm the same with you. Like the writing may not end up, you know, jiving 100%. But I think seeing it in 70mm will be like quite the experience. Oh, totally.

I imagine it's going to be like the visuals and like, you know, the like the bringing the story of the Odyssey, which is so fantastic. to life like all of that i'm totally here for it's just like i don't know we couldn't have said father it was kind of like my daddy's coming home it is weird it's weird it's like all the british accents and um gladiator too that we actually bitched about together yeah like i don't know it's just so fascinating to me the things that we've like decided are like signifiers times you know yeah i know i did you what a trip though it was fun it was amazing it was really great i had a fantastic time ate a lot of good food

when we went to emphasis so we saw a couple um wonders of the ancient world one of them was the temple of artemus which is not really standing that much anymore there's like the foundation and then there's like one big pillar that's up and like a couple of other things we went there at at ephesus and we were the only ones there and so like the only ones it was like me my parents and the tour guide and then we just like walked it was crazy and I was just like I'm

having this like mourning in turkey where I'm like walking amongst the ruins of one of the like eight wonders of the ancient world and like no one else is here it was crazy so cool we also found a school there and I was like I'm pretty sure it's an animal skull but I was like this is very cool in moving out. You never know. Not that we're hoping, but like. No, no. What if you went on a trip and like solved a mystery? I would be so happy. I know. It sounds very like Nancy Drew like the way she would like end up in random places.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, it is very Nancy Drew. That actually reminds me. I don't know that we've ever talked about this. Sorry, Kate, I'm just like on one this morning. It's the whole point is to talk. So, and I'm like excited to be here with you. So like everything's coming up. Have I ever told me about the like true crime, um, stuff at my favorite coffee shop where I go to work every day? No, not the coffee shop. So I go to this little coffee shop in Pliadale-Del-Ray. And I've been going there for honestly, over 10 years now. It was like when I first moved to L.L. L.A. And I like toured the school. I was going to go to grad school for, I was like, let's find a coffee shop near the beach. And I found this one. And it's cute and it's like local and not very sceny, which is like also not L.A. You know, like sometimes I love the like really well curated. This place is like a place where it's like nobody's going to like see or be seen. You're just like hanging out. Right. And a couple of years ago, they started putting up pictures of what Playa Delray, like the early history of Playa Del Rey. out because it's LA not that old. So it's like if it's if there's anything from the late

1800s, I doubt it. I think it's like 1910, 1920, 1930s. And one of the things that'll catch your attention on there is there is this picture of a burned down building. And it was a home for wayward and indigent girls, which is not the word that the picture uses. The picture uses a slur. And that's like the first thing that catches your attention because you're like reading, reading, reading, and then you're like, we don't say that word. Is the slur about them sleeping around? No, the slur is the R word. Oh.

And it's like, if you look into it, it's actually like, first of all, it's like very enough. First of all, we don't use that word. Second of all, it's like very inaccurate, but it was like, it'll cut your eye. It's good they used. You're like, hold on. Right. So this home, and I don't remember when it was.

It was the 1920s. I could look it up. They might have been. girls, I think it was wayward, indigent, and maybe like, girls with disabilities of some kind, both physical, mental also. And there was a fire. The girls were tied to their beds in the night so that they could not, like, get up and wander. One of the inhabitants or one of the, one of the girls who, like, lived there set of fire, it gets out of control, basically kills everybody except for, like, three people. Oh, my God. Awful. Awful. Very sad.

And so I'm, like, fascinated by this, of course. Right. Because it's like a terrible tragedy. And then I look and see, and this is a connection. I don't think anybody else has made. And stay with me. The story is going to, like, keep going longer. And I'm going to, like, figure out how to tell this more coherently one day.

I'm just scrolling pictures of coffee shops and Lena Del Rey or Playa. Lianna Delray. And this all comes from the archive of a local historian, which is, like, actually where I think the story gets kind of, like, freaky weird. this local historian says from the collection of I don't know if I should name him I'm like anxious about this. You'll have to.

Okay, so this local historian who died years ago. Okay. And the name, I look at it when I'm kind of like looking at it, the name rings a bell. And I'm like, that's interesting. And so I look him up.

And I remember where I've read him about him before. I read about him in the book, My Dark Places by James Elroy. Have you read this book? Oh, no, I haven't. So, you know, do you know James Elroy? He's the, he's a writer of many things, but often L.A. Noir, he wrote L.A. Confidential, which became the movie. He's kind of an interesting character. He's, um, I heard him, I went two years ago. I went to the noir fest screening of the, I think it was the 20th anniversary of, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, of LA Confidential and he was on stage and he like did a haiku about how big his dick was. Like that's who this guy is.

He's kind of like a big character. Okay. And I was like, that's interesting. Okay. Yeah. Oh, he writes this book, My Dark Places, which is about his, the unsolved murder, murder of his mother. His mother was murdered when he was like 10 or 11 in Los Angeles.

And I think the 1950s, 1960s never solved. And it kind of like obviously derails. his life in major ways. The book I found to be, I think, one of the most disturbing books I've ever read. And I feel like I have a pretty high tolerance about it. Like he gets in strange stuff. But what winds up happening with the book is he, when he gets older, he hires a private investigator basically see if they can ever solve his mother's murder. And a private investigator, he also gets kind of obsessed with looking up unsolved murders in Los Angeles around the same time. Oh, is it a serial killer? Why are like women being targeted in this way? Like, and so,

one of the murders he talks about happened in basically in Playa del Rey. There's like a Playa Del Rey is right next to another tiny little like subset called Marina Del Rey and it happens kind of on the border between these two of this woman who was a waitress at a restaurant not far from this coffee shop was married to a man started having an affair with somebody she worked with and her body is found like in the bushes. Like there's like a in the wetlands kind of that are like her husband who is a potential suspect that like and this is like a really small mention in the Elroy thing.

And he kind of hints that the husband might have been a potential suspect. But like I don't know the case files. And so that's why I'm going to page you about this because I don't want to like be like he definitely was like a suspect in the murder. but like seems seems in this Elroy book like it's the person that they're maybe pointing the finger at. Okay. Or could be pointing, could be, could be kind of like underlining is the historian who had

donated all of these photos to this coffee shop. Oh my gosh. And so I saw this name and I was like, why do I know this name? And then I looked it up and I was like, oh. Oh. That's why. That is intriguing. I know.

And I want to write about it or something. But I don't know even what I would say because I'm also like this guy has kids and like I don't, but it's just a weird. I don't know. Like a weird little piece of true crime thing that fell into my lap. And I like look at it every day when I'm there and I'm like, I don't think anybody else knows this. Like they know the photos. They're looking at the photos. They don't know this other piece that's like.

Right. History in the area. Oh my gosh. That is wild. You just find. you just find some of the coolest true crime stuff out there well i don't know of coolest but people know what you're there yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i haven't had anything that interesting happen not here but now now i now i want to read i i can't believe i haven't read james elroy because of all the

titles you just listed off i've heard of them i just never read them yeah there i've read um my dark places and then I've read LA Confidential and I think I read you know I definitely like the black dahlia um and his I recall I think I liked LA Confidential the most out of those um he said at one point I think in that same interview where he did the haiku about his big dick which you have to write a haiku about it like I don't know that I believe it but um you know But he basically talked about when he turned in, I think it was LA Confidential. It was like 100,000 words too long or something, like some crazy thing. And his editor basically was like, the plot is perfect.

You can't cut anything in the plot, but you have to cut like, I could be wrong about 100,000 words, but it was some like astronomical number of words. And so what he winds up with is this really tight, like punchy staccato style where he basically trims like every adjective. And it just is kind of like every sentence is just like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And it like really works well for the book. It comes out of him having to be like, how do I preserve the plot and also like really tighten this book?

Wow. Fascinating. Yeah. Oh. Mm-hmm. It is. it is so interesting the way that things change to get published hey totally

hey it was me I don't hear anything you want to come say hi you feel better how about you lay down come say hi do you any spray you

can you lay down oh no he has his status face on because he's sleepy and he can't stop barking. He needs it under the desk, maybe? He'll make you feel better. He's just going to hide under my feet. Go boy.

I don't hear anything. I think we're safe. He's like, I'm just going to keep sniffing your toes just in case. Go boy. There you go. Okay, I think he's good. I'm trying to think if I have anything that happened. No, I didn't.

Yes. What have you been watching? What's been like? How are you surviving? Tornadoes. Yeah, so many. We are in tornado season here. Thankfully, we have not been hit for anyone who's listening, but there have been a bunch

like north of us. So it has been wild. So we, you and I both loved Widows Bay. We have talked, we've just talked about the fact that we love it. But the blend of horror and comedy is just top tier. Like I remember seeing when it was first airing, people are like, this is like if Stephen King wrote Parks and Rec was what I was seeing a lot of. And I thought I was going to wait until it had all aired.

But then, as some of you know, if you've been listening, I had knee injury, got to a place where I was like, I can't sleep at night. Like, I need something that I can dive into. And at that time, I think there were only five episodes still, though. And I got to the end and I was like, how are people going week to week? It's just, it's so well written. Like, it always ends on like some question, if not a cliffhanger. And it doesn't feel like they're doing it because they have to end on it. It just, it's just so well developed. I love it. It really is. Yeah. And it feels like it doesn't sacrifice either side. Right. Like it has genuinely scary moments. And then the jokes are so. well written so like they cut just constant like it just it totally it feels like it shouldn't work something

shouldn't be able to be like this funny and legitimately scary and yet it does it works yeah i know that it's not a spoiler but the one that i keep seeing everyone quoting from the finale right now is the like yeah and then he got bit by an animal and turned into that animal she just moves on so funny it's so good it's like i know and they're just like so deadpan in there too yeah and then she doesn't say anything else you get bit by an animal and then turns the page he made a pass he made a pass i mean it's so good yes or like when they're the like genealogy when she's like dead dead baby dead maybe lesbian lesbian she's like he's like he's like he's talking lesbian she's like well they are she's like the way you say it doesn't sound good. Or like, you know the old saying the family that swims together, drowns together.

Yeah. She's out a whole family tree. Yes. Oh, my God. And then like Patricia, Kate O'Flynn is, she needs an Emmy for this. It's like incredible. Every, every episode, she's just amazing. I know. The party episode, amazing. I found the playlist. The final girl episode for lack of. of a better term. Brilliant. So good. I like, I've been listening to, um, the playlist of like Patricia Sunset Cocktails. Somebody put together a playlist of it on Spotify and it's so good and I've just been like listening to it. Okay. I'm going to find that. I'll put it. I'll put a link too because I feel like a lot of of, I'm having lots of conversations with people about this show. So I think a lot of people

are watching. Thankfully. It's so good. I agree. And I think it's been like a big word of mouth hit, which I think saying, you know, writers, authors are always like, how do I make my book a hit? And unless your book is the one that gets, you know, the million-dollar marketing. Yeah, like, it's word of mouth is like the way that like,

so it's always interesting to me when things, you can see things like that. Like I think another one, I mean, this is way earlier in the year, but like heated rivalry, I think was another word of mouth thing where it was like, you can tell they didn't necessarily have the production budget it wasn't necessarily like positioned to be the breakout hit that it became which is like amazing to see i know it's fantastic

yeah um what else so i'm also watching cape fear in real time as in not waiting it is good it is like dark and creepy and like the sound design you like feel like there are mosquitoes all around like you feel like you're in the humidity thankfully it doesn't ruin it for me because I know I'm actually not in the humidity, but it is, it's very good. And Javier Bardem is like, he's terrifying. He's very, very terrifying. So that one's a lot of fun. And then also, Tyler wanted to start something. This is another one where I was like, I will wait until the whole season airs and we didn't. Maximum pleasure guaranteed. All of these are on Apple that we've talked about. I have questioned it right now, I think. They are. And then-

I've got money troubles too. Yeah. Oh, I loved that. It was so good. I haven't watched that one either. Oh, it's so good. But I've been a Tadiana Maslini fan since Orphan Black, which is still to this day. I have not found sci-fi like that and like Sinsate.

I saw someone talking about Sinsate again. I was like, oh, I loved those two so much. So I was excited to see her in something again. but it is so good. So like what I've been telling people is where Widows Bay does horror and comedy so well, maximum pleasure guaranteed does like Hitchcock suspense and comedy really well. It's so fascinating that they have these two shows that are like that incorporate comedy where you don't always see it. It's fantastic.

It is really, really, really, really well done. So that one hasn't aired completely for anyone who, normally likes to wait like I normally end up doing. But it's, it's really fun. It is very fun. So I, that one is on my list. I like, I really only been like, honestly, I've been mostly rewatching old shows because I'm drowning under my to-do list. And so I'm hoping you don't have, but like, Widows Bay is the one that I'm like, so now that I've finished the first season of Widows Bay, I can maybe incorporate one show that I'm like watching and like actually paying attention to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does, you do want to be like locked in for them. They're not like background shows. No.

Movie wise, I think I've talked about them so I won't go into and deep, but obsession is fantastic. So good. Have you seen it or is it just? I haven't seen it. I really want to see it. I also want to see back rooms. Yes. That was fantastic. Yeah. And so at one point, my friend Stephanie Roble, who's a writer, she and I have horror movie marathons. Oh yeah. We have like this like LA writers group that we go to dinner with and like sometimes do fun things with and it's, you know, not meant to be exclusionary, but there's four of us who usually join. And the other two, Amanda Pelagino and Amy Meyerson are not into horror. And we keep being like trying to convince them to like come and they're like, no, no, not for us. And so we, we've been like, maybe we should double feature it. You should. Yeah, they're fantastic. I'm having like the happiest horror summer. I love boost. was also fantastic.

Much more Afro surrealism and like speculative fiction. It is so good. It is out there and I loved it so much. Hocum is really, really, really fantastic with Adam Scott. And that's who did Audity, right? Yes, I know.

I emailed him because I was like, hey, I don't know if you remember me. Like we talked about Audity. I emailed him a couple months before it came out, but I think he's pretty busy if he's working with, like Adam Scott now at this point. So no hate there. That it would have been fun to talk to him, but it was so good. And then I just saw Leviticus with one of my friends two nights ago.

Absolutely beautiful. And here's another fun combo. The writer-director talks about it being a horror romance. And it is. It very much is. Okay. Very short line, since it's not as popular and people really may not have heard about it. is these two gay boys in high school-ish age,

like have to hide that they're together. And then when they're super, super religious community finds out about them, they are like kind of like an exorcist type person comes in to like cast something on them. And what he casts on them is that now there is an entity that comes to them that looks, like the person they love the most that tries to kill them. It's one of the most powerful abstractions of conversion therapy that I've ever seen. Since the big thing of the idea of conversion therapy is to make you fear what you love and what is most innate for you. So like it's such a devastating and very horror way to explore that topic. It's incredible. It is so good.

But I just saw that one like two weeks ago. So yeah. And then there's another one coming out. I don't remember the name. It's a camp one with Gillian Anderson and Hannah Eindler. Yes. It's like sex and teenage something at camp. Roads.

Myasma. It's like a weird name. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's what it is. And I think that's supposed to be kind of like along those lines too. Like sort of like. another like queer yeah i think this one might be campier teenage sex and death at camp myasma okay i was i did say my i were very close i was very close i feel better oh my gosh do you watch hacks i think

we have talked about hacks before right so i do watch hacks i i i watched the first season and then i stopped for no good reason it's not distracted so actually one of the things that i've been doing this summer is i went back and i rewatched the first season and now i'm into the second season so i haven't the whole thing but I'm like making my way through it. I love Hannah so much. I mean, I love Ava, her character, but Hannah is just, she has incredible comic timing. Comedy timing or comic? I don't know. You guys know. Yeah. That's what about right. Yeah. Yeah, that one sounds really good. I also, not horror, but I do want to go see girls like girls by Haley Kiyoko because it's like a fascinating concept. I've seen some of her interviews.

or like she had a song called Girls Like Girls come out in 2020 or 2020. And she did a music video that like people were like loved. Like people still like have a lot of respect for the way that she even built the music video. A lot of people call her lesbian Jesus for her music. She has a song that gets so stuck in my head. Oh, curious. It is a very, very, very catchy, fun song, too. But so she did that.

And then the concept of it, she wrote as a book, as a novel that came out last year. And then it was picked up and she wrote and directed this coming of age, queer love story that's now in theaters. very few theaters and especially because like this episode's going to come out in like six days from the time we're talking about it I think it's going to be in theaters for very very limited time it's not even in all of the theaters near me um so if anyone really wants to see it this is just me telling you it's probably not going to be in theaters very long um so go see it if you want to but i not horror but they both came out girls like girls and leviticus both came out this past weekend and it's like very like fuck yeah happy pride so i do want to go see girls like girls did you have we ever talked about my old ass with it had aubrey plaza and someone else in it

yes i i didn't see it um i remember her premise i don't know i can't remember if we talked about it or not i remember i think you talked about it being like emotionally kind of devastating yes yeah yeah i thought i knew it was going to be like emotional in general and like this was one of the ones where Tyler's like maybe you should like wait until you've calmed down before we like get up and leave the last 15 minutes are a lot and like there's there is one scene I've talked to a couple of people about it because I posted about girls like girls basically girls like girls the trailer reminded me of my old ass and I was like okay well with how much I loved that one like if I need to drive 40 minutes to a theater maybe I just need to drive 40 minutes to a theater maybe you do you know

what it's not the worst thing there's that yeah so yeah I've I've I feel like the movies are better again and I felt like I did not like as many movies in 2025. I loved so many in 2024. You and I definitely talked about like strange darling and challengers. There were so many in 2024 and I feel like in 2025 there just weren't. Yeah. It's it is interesting. I feel like movies are simultaneously in their like flop era. Yeah. Like often a big budget kind of like retreads of stuff that are sort of like the same thing being served to us but then you're also seeing like really cool unique surges of stuff I mean honestly particularly in horror I would say is like booming in terms of I mean I think horror is always booming in terms of like box office

but like new weird or more interesting takes on stuff coming out which is I agree which of course is like dividing so many horror fans that are like I miss when they just killed people and you didn't have to think about anything. I'm like, well, then keep watching those movies. Like, sounds like you knew you didn't want to watch a cerebral horror. The conjuring 18 will be out anytime now. You can go see that. Yes. Yes, exactly. But yeah, I love it. I look. I just love going to the movie so much. So I've gotten lucky. There's something about it, too, that's like, I think because I don't know if you have this feeling. you go see movies a lot, which I think is really good.

Like, I'm now, I mean, since the pandemic, so much of it has felt like it's been streaming because it's like now things will like come to streaming three weeks after they're in theater. And like it has easier in some ways. You don't have to leave your house. It's like right there. So it really does make going to the movies feel like a treat.

And it like is one of the few places I think where we're like, I mean, maybe not everybody. There's always somebody who's on their phone, like not just taking notes, but like on their phone. but like it's like a place where we really do your your attention is forced to like be on one thing again if you have dogs like me it's the only way I can watch a movie without being interrupted so it's like all of those things and it's nice and dark and air-conditioned which is my favorite thing ever that's part of it like in the summer too you're like two you know like two hours

Yes. Yeah, I love it. Depending on how I feel, I might go try to see that one tonight, but as I start to yawn, it depends. It depends on how I keep feeling. I love it. Have you read anything recently that you loved? Yes, I did. I got to read an early arc of Stephanie Robles' revenge block. Yes. It's so good. It's like, So the story is there's this woman who's kind of an infamously successful literary agent. And she is spending Christmas alone by herself.

She's rented this like Airbnb that's like a tree house. It's like very atmospheric and she's going to just have a nice night to herself, blah, blah, blah. You find out there's a few things that are like a surprise. She's got this writer who is like a best-selling mystery. crime novelist and nobody knows who she is. Her identity is a secret. And the books have started to be less successful than they used to be. And so there's this question of that. And then a man and a young boy show up at her place. There's like been a car accident. And they basically, she's like, oh, you guys come on and stay with me. Well, you know, there's a big storm outside. I can't

have you out here in the snow. And then you find out that might be more connected to her and might be there for a particular reason. And it's just so atmospheric and fun and stuff writing is just so crisp and enjoyable. And she's just like a master, master writer. She like has you going one way, pulls you to another. It's like, it's just, it's a highly recommend. I think it's out in November.

And it is so. fun nice yeah i just requested on that galley it sounds fantastic and we're talking we were talking about a little bit earlier the cover is amazing so if you are not driving while listening to this you should look at the link in the show notes because the cover is so cool and i'm being attacked by my hiccups oh no my hair the mat of you you can try um What did I? Oh, I just finished. Well, I finished another horror book. Kate can't stop talking about horror shocking.

But it's called Our Sisters Keeper by Jasmine Holmes. I'm pretty sure it's her debut, but also I had a friend who said she thought she wrote other stuff, but in another genre. So who knows, who knows? And it is basically in 1927, there's this town. I think it's in Mississippi. It's in the South where only black people live there and they have kind of managed to maintain a utopia. But part of how they've maintained it is that there are women who can take on the burdens of the men's painful memories, traumatic memories. They're able to like see them and take them away from them. But yes, that means the women then are feeling them

for them. You see how brilliant this concept is. Yeah. Yeah. So all the men are wonderful and it's a complete utopian town except that the women can see all of these hauntings or they call them groanings that exist in the town. They're the only ones who can see it because basically the men through the labor of women have had their like lives made a lot easier and they don't see any of the trauma anymore. So you can just imagine all the different ways that I loved that book. It is so brilliant. That's so rich. Yes. Yeah. And it was crazy because I read it Kimberly Crenshaw has, um, her memoir out called Backtalker. It is fantastic, but she is like the, like the, one of the founding mothers of critical race theory, but she is the founder of misogy noir and

intersectionalism and talking about how, like, if you have multiple marginalized parts of your identity, that that intersection means like politics is even, and society are even harder on you. So I like listen to that. And like really, she has such fascinating anecdotes about like moments in time where, in her childhood. She was like, well, I thought my brother would stand up for me in this situation. And then she learned like, oh, just because we're both black, he still won't always treat me great because I'm a girl at the time. So she has these stories that like really, you really understand how she became the person to pioneer this like research and term and all of that.

And then I read this book that is truly like one of the best examples I've seen of use. like horror in historical fiction to talk about massage and noir and how like oh this perfectly wonderful town full like no white people live here and and it's it's only black people and everything's fine well everything's fine because the women are taking on the burdens like all of the burdens so it was such crazy timing reading both of them so close together but i highly recommend it yeah imagine yeah that's that sounds incredible that's a great premise Yes. And like it also makes, I mean, you could write that book essentially. Is that not also what white people have done to black people about the history of like enslavement? Like here you carry this. We don't want it. Like yeah. Yeah. It she tackled so many things. And I was while still, which is what I always say in my review sometimes like there's like all of there's all of the like social stuff being said. But it's a fantastic plot too. And so it's like you still are like hooked. But she like. manages to make you think about it.

I also think it's one of those ones where if you don't want to think about it, you can also read it and you wouldn't even totally notice. But that's how good the plot is, basically. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I have in front of me, like as part of my stack, keeping my computer at a flattering angle, the reformatory by Tanana Reeve Dewey, which I'm sure we've talked about before.

I love her. That's another book that does that so well where it's like using the hit, like, I mean, the history of those. real life reformatory schools but also like such a good story but like it in its DNA is this like social method you yes i i loved that one so much yeah i just got her i have the eat i have the digital arc of maisie wood which is her next one that comes out in september or october i think it's september i am such as an honor eve do fan i even um she and her mom wrote and now i can't remember in the family maybe. She and her mom

wrote a book together about her mom's experience in the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s. And then it's also then what she experienced then like in the 70s, 80s. So you like see how both of them

were still having to essentially fight for their rights even though like mom's like, I did this. Like can my children just like not have to keep fighting this fight. So that was really fascinating too. And it gave me so much insight into like the historical horror that she does right. You're like, oh, this is really, really personal to her. Not that it wouldn't be to any black person, but like it gives you even more context, basically. Yeah.

She's amazing. Well, on a totally candy-coated different note. I mean, it actually is, it is in relation to, like, white women who've never had to be confronted by anything. Oh, absolutely. I know what we're going. Neither of us watch Summer House, but. Not a one, not an episode. I saw two seasons, maybe one and a half seasons when Hannah Berner was on, but I know that was at least six years ago at this point. So, and I do love Hannah, but yeah, otherwise we don't watch it.

But you might like us be having the same thing where like if you're into pop culture, if that sneaks its way into your algo, it's impossible not to know about it at this point. Yes. It is crazy. It is crazy on so many different levels. What was like, what were like the first things that you were seeing that got you? Like what was it by the reunion or were you? even seeing some of the stuff before that. So here's a couple things. So yeah, so you've even watched, you haven't watched Summer House really, but you've even watched a little bit more of it.

Here was my introduction to Summer House. I watched the season of the traders that had Tom Sandoval on it because I wanted to see him make full of himself. And I did not watch his show either, but I was seeing some of the memes coming out about it. And I was like, I think I need to tune in. So that was my first introduction to Sierra. And she was great on it. And, And I was like, oh, so she's on some show Summerhouse. I've never heard of it once. That's where I am, I guess. I was listening to a podcast garbage sesh that is done by comedians,

Casey Wilson and Danielle, I forget her last name. And they were talking about the announcement that Amanda Batula and West Wilson had put out. And this was the first, I had sort of heard, I think Volter did like a story about Amanda kind of shortly before this broke. And so I'd kind of like seen her and I, and then I hear about the statement. And then for some reason, it's like it clicks in and all of a sudden I need to know everything about it. And I was kind of like this about Scandibald too. Where I didn't watch the show. I had no horse in the race. And yet all of this content has come out about it. And so now suddenly I'm like very invested in these people who yes, I don't even

watch their show. But like the Amanda Patrol. So then I tune in for, um, all three chapters of the reunion and the after show. Again, knowing nothing about these people and they're like previous connections to anyone. Right. Right. And, uh, it was very enjoyable. Yes. Yeah. So I remember it. So last year, as well. You definitely have then heard these stories from the reunion. But last year as well, West was a fucking loser.

And so I remember kind of the same thing happened where like, so Paige DeSorbo was on it last year. And then she and Hannah have Giggly Squad, which is one of the podcasts that I listened to. So like, that was also tangentially.

I knew stuff because Paige was in it, not because they talk about on their podcast. because they were smart girls and they were like we're not getting the bethany clause with bravo we will not talk about it and this can remain ours so they were really smart about that anyway um but because like i follow page it i was starting to see the stuff then too and like that dude just like yanked sierra around all season and like was kind of red to filth last season like a year ago and like last year ago and like last year he was even like part of his excuse was like i just joined the show and like you don't even know how many girls are going to start coming up to you and you're like that that doesn't mean you just like inevitably had to sleep with all of them dude like like i'm gonna have the opportunity to be an absolute dick like i didn't know i didn't know there could be other girls like it was essentially like to really distill him down last year it's that but like page read him to filth like

the way she talked about like no like we see her we see who like you were treating this way like because not only seora beautiful she is also so kind and smart like and was a nurse during the pandemic she was a traveling nurse during that totally like sierre's amazing so that was already kind of like he was reminded of that last year and then this year i have hated kyle for years because I also hated what happened on the two seasons that I watched him. That was enough for me to be like, never, ever, ever will you make me think that dude's a good guy? Totally. I hate him.

I hate him so much. I never trusted Amanda. I never, I didn't hate her. There have been times I did. Sure. But I'm still always like, why are you with a man like this? Right. Right.

Like there's that feeling for me. and there's there's a lot of nuance we'll get into. Sure. There is the nuance of, you know, women still not always thinking they have as much power in the relationship, blah, blah, blah. But I was never like, oh, Amanda's cool. I was like, patient Hannah are pretty cool. And so then when I start, oh, so then what if people don't know, the main thing you should really know is that like Sierra has even had conversations about. how it's really hard to date interracially as a black woman.

These are conversations that have been had on camera. So we know the conversations have been had. There have also been private ones where she's like, this is the stuff that's hard for me, like to her friends. And Amanda loves to act like she is just her best friends. Sierra and Paige multiple times have talked to Amanda and been like, we wish you could see you the way we see you like you have more in you like don't let him dull your shine like if this is something you want to go after go after we'll help you while they both

hate kyle too but she has like had some big supporters from sierra and page because she is absolutely well it was absolutely in an abusive relationship it was yep and they have been like her rocks multiple different times. Sierra has talked about this like you kind of get fetishized when you're a black woman. It's very common when you're dating white men especially to have it kind of be something they like want to check off their list or something that feels exotic to them. And it doesn't feel good because then it doesn't feel like it's about who you are. Totally.

And then when this stuff with a man or with. West is kind of starting to pick up for Sierra again, but like kind of not. But Amanda knows how much it hurt. Then Amanda started hooking up with him and they've just, well, she says they didn't hug up until they gave the statement, which is so freaking unbelievable. It's so unbelievable. I said freaking instead of fucking. So this is the stage that I can set.

Totally. Totally. So West, they have like a connection. he dumps her because he wants to sleep with all the instababs, but then he keeps jerking around. Possibly maybe now it looks like so he could have a storyline on the show. Yeah, I think so. Which, like, to some degree,

never going to be favorable to West Wilson. But, like, I guess my feeling about reality television is, like, I understand that you're sort of manufacturing stuff sometimes. Yeah, you shouldn't do it with somebody else's feelings. But, like, and or, like, you know this person. Like, could you, pull her aside and be like, could we play this up? You know what I mean? Like just, like, be a human being about it.

And then we're also going to get on into the secret girlfriend of it all, a woman named Miha, who is, I think, also a woman of color. Yes. So that's not great. You know? Like, yeah. And so, like, not a great track record for him with, and then all of this blows up. And then to pick the white girl, quote unquote.

It's exactly. What's the thing what Sierra was telling them about is like, okay, also it is the same conversation. I am not boycotting Taylor Swift, but it is the same conversation about Travis Kelsey. I did not know anything about Travis Kelsey until recently, but he was dating a baddie named Kayla and Cole. Like she, she is fantastic. And it doesn't mean that he has like a racial, it doesn't mean he's racist. It just means that there is a theme sometimes where white men just think of like dating or sleeping with black girls, black women. And then when it's time to settle down, they end up with a white girl.

Yeah. It's the same conversation. It doesn't mean anyone is. directly racist, but it's, it's a conversation because it's been something so deeply embedded in our society for so long. And so it's also that stuff where like then, then Amanda, all of a sudden Amanda, you're willing to do a joint statement with when you're like, I, I'm not, I'm not beholden to anyone. I can't help myself. The stupidest. I never read in my life, which was like, it was like, I don't even know. Do you remember there's a Friends episode. Did you watch Friends?

Yeah. Where I think Joey is going to marry Chandler and Monica and he can't figure out what to say. And then he accidentally stumbles on something that's really profound. And then Chandler's like, you should say that. And he's like, I think it was about knowing and having and loving. And it's very generic. That's how the statement felt to me was like this generic word salad of like conversations have been had as we formed this connection. with intentionality and accountability and it didn't say anything and it was just like so are you guys what are you telling us you guys are fucking your exclusive like what are you your love like what are you telling us like and they no one's figure it out and they doesn't say anything to sierra but then

they start saying like we apologize with our statement you're like no you did it no i get it saying like we apologize is not like i'm sorry sierra and like again i think there was like a weird conversation I've been hearing sometimes people saying about like I apologize versus I'm sorry and like honestly I don't know that it needs to cut that fine but like what an apology needs to encompass is a personal element. Not just like I not a blanket I apologize like too like like like like even the moment where Andy I think it's in part three he's like do you have anything you do want to stay Amanda and she's like regarding about and he's like the West Sierra of it all to Sierra and he's like yeah and like okay so so they put out this statement that's like

nobody can figure out what's going on yeah we have this reunion they show up the exact opposite of how if you're going to sit down and do this you need to come with your tail between your legs you need to come with like a story that you guys can agree and can like be like this is what like something and instead they both just sit there defensive he everything what he says about him being a bad guy he's like this is true and you're just like I would I appreciate I think he was trying to do a thing I think he was smart enough to know you can't argue with it right like somebody says doing a better job of listening than Amanda yeah yeah but he gave nothing he gave no insight no anything no anything anything

on there just sort of sat there and took it. And also, why was he sending pictures of his flaccid to anyone? Like, if that seems medical, like, why would we send? And from what I'm hearing, it's not impressive. So again, why was it being sent? Why was it being sent? I know. I'm like, was this like telehealth? And you were like, can you check this out? Like, what happened? Oh my God. Yeah. And then she comes, she's like, They're both on something. Yeah. Like, I mean, West, like, Andy Cohen says it directly. Kind of says it in the first episode, like, in the green room. He's like, you guys seem calm. And then he ends up having to say something during the reunion.

Right. And he's like, are you on beta blockers? Like, what's happening? Just like, and he asked West, which is, like, fair, they both give it. But like, Amanda had like, slurring. Yeah. And it was just sort of like, just like blank behind the eyes. And I think one of the first things she says to Sierra is like, fuck off, which is like Sarah says when you make you're mad. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. You need to come here being like, even if you're like, we're not breaking. We're going to keep dating each other. You have to come in and be like. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm really sorry. I'm like what, you know, like don't come in being like, you guys don't even get it. Like, no, we know. She did a very, when we talk about alabaster disasters, like white women in that vein, she very much did that white woman thing where she sat down and at least via the editing with a caveat that like chronologically this is how we experience it. Totally. She says we're here.

We're here and we're like at the very beginning when he's just like welcoming each person. I'm just like really ready to sit and take accountability. And it and it's something that sounds like exactly what you're saying. It sounds like something. But it's not something. If your actions don't like follow. but it's such an easy thing to be like, I'm going to take accountability. And then, yeah, the next thing she's saying is, oh, fuck off, Sierra.

And you're like, you don't get to have both. No, and I don't understand, like, taking accountability is not just saying I take accountability. No. What do you mean? Like, that's crazy. I could say I'm a millionaire. That doesn't make it true. Like, what do you mean?

You know? Like the, I saw the comparisons to, I don't know, if you probably, I feel like you didn't watch the office. But we're like, okay, you did. The meme of him being like, I declare bankruptcy because he thinks he just has to say it out loud. I saw comparisons to that. And I was like, that's exactly. She's like, I declare accountability.

And now I can tell Sierra to fuck off. What? 100%. That's exactly what it was. It was like, I declare this thing so that nobody can be mad. Yeah, I agree with you. That was the like exact feeling I had to watching this where I was like, oh, she's doing. this sort of like white woman victimhood fragility thing.

Yep. When she is in fact not the victim here, which is crazy. Like this and I think she is so high on her own supply that she didn't even realize that like that isn't how anyone views her in this. Like no one views her as the victim and why should they? She's made a choice. That's also what some people have pointed out is like, did she have it lagging in her head that she was getting divorced from Kyle?

And every that that's the thing. She stayed in that relationship for so long, most likely because she enjoys being a victim. And so it makes sense that she's now being, thinking she's still the victim. I saw some people that were like, she could have had it. She could have had that.

She could have divorced Kyle. And it would, she could have almost been Ariana. Like instead, she could have had the Ariana summer. Right. But she starts sleeping. be with or she starts doing whatever with west of all people and i think she just thought she was going to

just get to have every feel bad for her because like kyle you're like no if you do something bad too you did something bad yeah and i i think that's part of like why this is hitting with so many people including those of us who don't even watch the show or care about these people is this sort of like it's almost like she's like i've been hurt so i deserve to do whatever i want and i think we have all experienced a version of pain around that before in our lives with somebody. And it's like, okay, but the two don't equate. Like, you very well could have been the victim of emotional abuse, emotional and verbal abuse in your marriage. And it seems like you were. And also that doesn't mean you get to make shitty choices that hurt other people and say, that's fine. Like,

that's not how that's not, I mean, you can do whatever you want, but there are consequences and like, you'll hurt people. And you don't get to be like, I didn't even like, her whole thing where she's like, did I do the worst thing in the world? Like, oh my God, you guys have never done this before? And they're all like, no, not since high school. Right. And like, you know, it isn't like she murdered somebody, but that's not the way. She like, she did something very hurtful to people she knows. And she's kind of acting like she doesn't have to answer for that in a way is crazy.

And there's a moment where she says something akin to this akin to like, but Sierra is my friend, like has a reaction like that. that and we're all just like so I have to I have to share because it's it's so perfect um my lore for people who don't who haven't heard some version of it part of it is that um the really small town church that my dad was a pastor of my mom was having an affair with like the family best friend who also was like one of the major donors to the church for about seven years um and just everyone kind of knew it was happening. No one was surprised when it finally came out, but we were all just like, hopefully it's not happening. Yeah. So I got to a point where I went no contact and then that turned into like, okay, let's try family therapy. And so at one point when we were in therapy,

she's also best friends with that man's wife. Like when I say we all did everything together, we went to extra, we went to like spin classes together. We went all. We went all. on actual bike rides together, all of us, all of us. She would go, she did a mini marathon with that woman and they would just walk miles and miles and miles together while this was happening. So at one point my brother stood up and he was like, how, why do you keep calling her your friend? And my mom straight face looked at all of us and was like, because she is my friend. Yeah.

So like I had some people when I was sharing some stuff. from like clips people are like i can't believe someone actually acts like this i was like i can't it is crazy the way people can convince themselves of stuff i think the person who can compartmentalize a seven year affair is also the person who can compartmentalize like i'm sure on some level your mom genuinely did care about that woman right like could somehow build a wall where she kept that separate yeah the thing she was doing that was really hurtful to that woman. You know what I mean? Like a person who can like live that sort of duality. Yeah, but like that is, the disconnect is crazy. Yeah. And I think Amanda did the same thing. I, because I think she even compartmentalized

with Kyle, like, and was also kind of enjoying that like people would pity her. And she could be like, yeah, he does all of this. But then like sometimes she's like, oh, but I'm going to go ahead and marry him. Like he cheated on her so many times before they got married. She had so many times she could leave. I also have, there's like so much I want to talk about here. There was the moment when we go into Carl and Lindsay who, because I don't know the lore, like I, I have,

I'm like tabula rossa with all these people. Like, except for things that I've heard about. I'm like, they have great chemistry. They should be together. And like, you know,

their wedding fell apart. Yeah. Like you find that out and you're like, these people are like chill with each other again. Totally. But they make that commercial and then basically, and go and asked everyone like was that hurtful and Amanda has this crazy thing of being like I would never have done that to you and everybody just looks at her like what are you talking about like yeah yeah

I can like I don't think it's necessarily invalid that that hurt her feelings but positioning it as I would never have done that to you when what we're sitting here talking about is what you have done to your friends is like really crazy she doesn't see it at all at all yeah at all she can't She just, I don't think she, I don't think she, um, understands how, how much people exist outside of herself. I think that's some of it. Yeah. Like you're just so in your own world. And she's so clearly in the vacuum of male validation. Yes. Yes. I loved your thoughts on this. Thank you. It was like, I felt even very clear, weirdly the like, after the reunion show, which like, you know, on some level, Bravo was eating this up.

Like, this is like, bring it to us. Like, this is great. But she has that conversation with Lindsay, which I think is like, if she had brought that to the reunion, that at least would have been something, you know? Like she had a little more coherent thoughts around what had happened with her and like why she did it a little bit. And like, again, positions herself as the victim as though anytime a man waggles his penis near her, she has to like trot over to it.

She has to. Like, well, what was I for you? You know, but it like was very clear. Oh, God. And like, and then she kind of ends it by being like he has to go. And it's like we know she's like spitting food in his mouth in Italy. So like that. Yes. But like the it became very clear in that moment how much like male validation is the thing. Because she even says like he was checking up on me. He was being a good friend. And Lindsay points out like so were the rest of us. and like Sierra especially. And she even kind of said that, well, but it was a guy. Like she, it's the male attention that matters to her. Not like, not anybody else caring about her. It's that somebody wanted her.

And like that feels very clear. And like I think what we were even talking about when I sent you as a tiny talk about this is like, you did. I don't excuse any of that. And then it is also interesting to see how much we have the narrative embedded in like rom-coms and even like older romance novels about like the reformed rake you know the guy who treated other women like shit and ran through them but then he finds his true love and everything's different and like that narrative she's in that this guy is going to be different with me than he was

with every other woman yes and it makes me the most special it's that like pick me narrative thing and then also that narrative like means that men are never responsible for their own growth They're never responsible for their own emotions or actions because if she was the right one, I would automatically change instead of I needed to do the work to become a good partner. It's she will unlock something inside of me. And I think there's ways that that other, that goes both ways. It does get both ways. But that is like this weird romantic narrative that like I feel like I've seen plenty in my lifetime.

And now we're like reckoning with it. And it's like, so it's turned a bunch of men into emotional. terrorist like let's not do that i know like the the allure that was created that was like the bad boy is only bad because it's not the right you don't have the right key yet and the girl with the right key will unlock his goodness like never never and i think it's important like what you were discussing there too because it's also it's not just oh he's dated multiple people and now we finally found our groove. It's the bad boy who treats so many women poorly and then like feeling like you're a princess because you turn him into something. I think those other women are necessary in this

type of narrative to make you feel more special. You know what I mean? It's not you're right. It's not the idea that I think is like a healthy one of like a person that relationships before me and they've maybe like figured some things out and like gained new skills and they get to bring all of that into a relationship with me. No, it is he treated all of these women poorly, which is an indication of their worth and not him. And then when he treats me well, which I assume he can for like, you know, the honeymoon phase. Exactly. Six to 12 weeks. And then suddenly it's going to drop off. And it's again, it's going to be your fault when it does, not his. Yeah. I know. She, it, there is the part of it that is heartbreaking, which is kind of the nuance we're talking about here.

Where like it is, I excuse zero of her behavior, but it is sad that there technically is something within her that like needs that is male centered. It's making her male centered and like really wants that validation more than anyone else is. And it is sad. You do like that's what's, but then going back to even like see. Sierra and then last year like Sierra and Paige with her, it makes it even more sad that you had girlfriends who were trying to tell you like you are a full person. You are, you have agency. You are fantastic just as Amanda. And like she couldn't believe it. That is that like the saddest part is she had women speaking that into her life. And it's in that wasn't enough. It was still like,

oh, but if this guy likes me, it'll be like, guys, he just needed me. if Amanda is a victim of anything she's a victim of the patriarchy but all of us are and so you have to choose to like unhook yourself from that narrative and she is clearly not making that voice you know what I mean she's like I'm in it it's working for me this is great yes I don't think that's true uh yeah they both they both feel infantilized or acting that way both of them feel at West and Amanda more than like um like Scandival at least like with Sandoval specifically I don't I never got the vibes that he was actually like a baby boy or at all like I just he truly just felt sadistic a little bit and insecure and mean but like both like West just feels like the whole world has treated him like

he was a little baby boy and it's this actually the same thing with Amanda she's kind of been like you're just a sweet little girl and Amanda will take care of you when you grow up and all of those things. Like we know nothing about her parents, but I'm like, what was that marriage? Like, totally. One of the podcasts I listened to the one with the garbage garbage sush where they were talking about it. They were like, I feel like the only thing playing on her head the whole reunion is daddy loves me. Daddy loves me. Daddy loves me. Yes. Literally. Like I was like, I, you're not wrong. That is the vibe that you get is. Yeah, totally.

Oh, one sidebar for everyone listening. Oh, yeah. Beta blockers minimize the internal, internal parts of anxiety. So then you don't have to have your heart racing and your hands don't sweat. Those are kind of like the two main ones. Where they started to get really quote unquote popular and well used in like Hollywood-esque circles is because it doesn't have the sedating effect. your brain functions the same way. It's just nice because the physical symptoms of anxiety don't come up and overwhelm you.

They were on something else too. There's like such a chance that they're on beta blockers. But like having been someone like I can't take Xanax. I take something. Well, and my anxiety doesn't really. I don't as much anymore. But I had to go on something like called out of hand because Xanax just blanks you out. I'm not saying they were on Xanax, but they were on something more barbituate as well.

Or even more, like, weed doesn't even do that to you. That's not like what weed makes you look like either. They were blank. Like, they were blank, blank, blank. So, like, for anyone who's hearing all, it's about beta blockers. And Sierra actually did a post about it because Sierra is a nurse too. She's like, this is what beta blockers do. I've prescribed them before.

Beta blockers don't make you slur your words. Don't make you vacant. Like, there are some other things going on. And even that is so cowardly. They couldn't even show up and face what they'd done. Like, that stood out to me too. I mean, I agree with you. Personally, I have no problem.

Like, if I were ever to go on television, beta blockers whole way. You know what I mean? Like, to me, it seems like they should be given those out in the green rooms at these Bravo reunion. Right. To set a baseline. So I have the problem with anybody taking like a beta blocker or something to sort of make sure you can like actually function in that space.

But I agree that's clearly not what was happening. They were like so stone, like so walled off in this very strange way. That just like didn't. And like the rumor is now that West Wilson isn't coming back. And I think part of it is he shows up there. He has nothing to say for himself. And then he goes on his podcast immediately afterwards and talks for three hours trashing the show.

Yeah. And being like fuck this. Like, you know, like you had nothing to say for when you're getting your paycheck. But like, I don't know. It just as it was a portion. He's so lame. And I know the other thing that he said, because the Knicks were in the playoffs at the time,

he literally said he hoped, by the way, Summerhouse for anyone who doesn't know anything about this, takes place in New York. So they're all New Yorkers. And there's this like once in a generation run that the Knicks are on. And he wanted them to lose to the Spurs so that they would have to play another game and set on this three-hour podcast.

podcast that he wanted the views to like swallow up the summer house after the reunion showing like you don't get to just like keep saying all this shit about your show that's like damaging and not helpful and expect them to invite you back uh that to me is like an inside thought you know what i mean like i could understand where he was coming from in the sense of like if something embarrassing was going on you might be like please could something else you know yes may or may not be a our country got involved in a war in Iran so that we didn't have to, so Trump didn't have to hear about the Epstein files. Oh my God. But I'm just saying like the thought process I can understand, but it's an inside thought west. It's inside. It's inside.

It's an inside thought. 1,000 percent. I also goffod when basically people are asking him like, well, is this serious? Because they're also not being very clear about any of this, right? No. Are you guys in love? Are you going to be in a relationship? What is happening?

And he's like, you know, if we could just get back to those early days and how good it felt. And everyone was like six weeks ago? You're in the early days. Right. That's so unsurious that like you could even say that where I'm like, what do you mean? What do you mean early days? Yes. They are delulu.

They believe a lot of things that are very far outside of reality. Well, now they've made such a scandal of it. They have to give it a try. I know what I mean? They can't do this and then break up two months in and then go, whoops, sorry we like fucked everybody over. Like, you know, you have to almost like give it the illusion. We're in love.

Like, it's crazy. No. And I couldn't tell if they would even lean into that. But I think they're trying to. Like, thus that weird her spitting into his mouth in Rome. Like, the other thing is like, I think we're learning that they're actually weird. too. Like, not just that they're delusional, but they're also just kind of weird. I'm like, what is going on? Yeah, very strange. And there was, there was something else. Oh, I thought it was

also fascinating. She kept kind of, like, you could see something getting into her head about it when they would go back to the green room and she would be like, they're making me feel stupid for trusting you. And it's sort of like, you know, shit. Because she didn't know about Miha. Right. She didn't know about Miha. And like everybody's kind of like he's going to do the same thing. And it's like that thought had never occurred to her, you know, which is crazy about the guy who's literally been cast as the fuckboy on your show. You know. And you've been with a fuckboy.

The OG fuckboy of Summerhouse was Kyle. Which can I also just say there was a detail that came out again, knowing nothing about these people. And it's like probably honestly. this was probably an unfortunate entry point for Kyle for me. Yes. Comparatively comes off better. Oh, yeah. So,

and I'm sure that's not to take it. You know, so like I'm positive based on the clips we saw he's like called her some really awful names and said stuff. I'm like, I'm sure this guy has been awful. But unfortunately, I even just to her. It's like.

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. It's, yeah, it seems like he's got an alcohol and a rage problem. Correct.

Those two things seem to be. clear. But they dropped some sort of detail that they hadn't had sex since they got married four years ago. Yeah. And I am never going like that I'm not laying that out there in any sort of foundation of like he was right to pursue infidelity or anything. No. But I was like, I don't understand why you guys are together. If like you haven't had sex and you haven't talked about it for four years. Like what are we doing? I, the discussion that I, the discussion that I was seeing around that talked about how they didn't get, they were together for at least six years or more before they got married.

And so if we go back, Amanda started as the side piece and was kind of wanting to get on the show. He was with someone else. And so she was on the side. And then she kind of thought she was the only. And then, but she kind of almost never was. but then they both became integral to the show. So like a lot of the first season people aren't on there anymore. And she wasn't a first season cast member.

She was an accessory to Kyle. And then there was so much cheating, so much cheating, so much cheating. They would almost break up and so much cheating. They would almost break up. And then finally they got married. A lot of people feel like she thought, especially with her very male-centered behavior, the conversations I was seeing kind of on like TikTok, were like some people thought if she didn't marry him would she still be on the show and that they kind of get the vibe that it's like so much it happened leading up to that that like he was kind of like well i guess i need to propose to her and she's like i don't know if i can leave him because basically their entire relationship until they got married the whole cast like the girls were even asking her weeks before she got married are you sure

like that was how bad it still was and i mean it was like yes it's going to be good so they got married when i don't think they were even in love anymore is the weird weird backstory to that that makes sense and i wasn't trying to frame it as though sexual intimacy is the lifeblood of america to me it is a strange thing to say we haven't had sex since we got married and like there's no follow up to that like we had conversations about it and decided that it didn't need to be like it just speaks to a lack of intimacy and other aspects of like like like, like, whoa, like that we're not talking about it or it's not because we decided we're going to have a different arrangement or you know what I mean?

Or like honestly, I think that you could never say this because I think the show would revolt, but like I would even respect them if they were like, listen, it was a Bravo marriage. Like we both wanted to be on TV. So we got married. They actually probably would have done better if they just did go that route. Yeah. Because I think they were, they were like, what they did. So they got married.

That's when you get married when you're like, I guess we'll just get married. I think people do though. That's a, you're right. Somebody who's never been married. I think some people do. And I don't know. Who am I to say what's the right way? I don't think there is one right way.

But yeah, what's, I don't know. Oh boy. Yes. That sums it up. It's crazy. Oh, boy. Yeah. That's crazy. And I'm consuming all the content about it, which again is kind of bizarre for a show that I've never watched. I know. Every think piece, every podcast that like done by people I know, I'm like, tell me more. I know. Well, it's fascinating. And this is what they signed up to do. This is, this is reality TV. Totally. I also, it was interesting how much everybody else was impacted by it. Like we've got Jesse Solomon on the couch who again, never seen people before. And he's like sobbing. And I was like, well, that's fascinating. And then like,

talking about like Carl's a mess. Like it really seems to have impacted this friend group in a pretty intense way. Yeah. Yeah. It did. It really did. I think some of it is because of like how much everyone even loves Sierra so that's like a big through line throughout all of it but it it's a messy show it's it's kind of like it's kind of felt darker than like even vanderpump rules ever did like when i would hear about some of the seasons and you're just like damn like there's like a whole addiction part with carl and then lindsay was like so he's like so handled it so poorly when he was in recovery. Like there,

there have been some things that are just like very dark and personal. So I think in some ways, then because they're, they're all kind of like, why would you do this of all things? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know enough.

Yeah, I don't, I don't either. It's fascinating. It's wild. Yeah. Would you ever go on a reality TV show? I don't think so. I'm, I think that's actually, that's a complete no.

I'm thinking like maybe if there was like a bookish game related show was what I was thinking about, but I'm like, I don't think that exists. So in general, no, I know it's not for me. I think the same too. I would consider it like an act of self-preservation to not. Yes. Because even though I don't think, like I kind of think there's something. thing. I think I'm sure wanting to be on reality TV itself is like a certain type of narcissism.

You know what I mean? Like you have to have a certain. Right. Like there's, it's not every personality type who's going on the TV show. But then I think even more than that to me, it's which it would be like you don't know how they're going to edit things. You don't know how you're going to come off. Like would it fundamentally change me? Like I just, I think I have no real interest in it ever. Even if there was one that like might be appropriate. I don't know. Like it just, it's your real life. Like I don't know. I keep, I keep thinking about this lately because we've blurred those boundaries so much even in like regular people's lives of like with social media and the way that like we're all presenting a certain version of ourselves from consumption

and how that is now a job. You can like present yourself on the internet and make money from and that is a job. Like that's bizarre, really. It is bizarre. I have to recommend a book really quickly, but I agree with that. There are a couple of parts for me. I'm like, I'm open.

And so like even like sometimes people will be like, can I ask you about this that you've talked about in your childhood? I'm like, yes, if anyone is ever interested, I'm not private in that way. I never wanted that to become my whole personality. But I feel like I'm like very open. to like discussing things with people however i also am a very private person and so just the literal concept of cameras on me all the time i'm like i know that i also felt like i grew up with an omniscient

god watching everything i did so like no thank you it's just not for me like served my time yes yeah like done this but there's a really good book i have to mention will will Okay, I just got to listen to this one. And it is called Bad Influence by Will Carver. It is one of the coolest takes that I've seen that incorporates what you just talked about, how you present yourself can become your job on social media. The very, very, very, you want to know almost nothing. I can't believe how many reveals they were in this book without it feeling overdone, too. So the very short thing is too bored, obsessed teenagers break into and secretly live in influencers' houses.

But when they choose the wrong home, their twisted experiment turns deadly. That is the very, very short version. Yes. And so this one is like... That's like a version. I want to write a version of the book. Well, this one's very unique too. I'm sure you could also do a very unique take on it.

what was I going to say? Oh, it's like mixed media. So like you're getting your some of it you're following through social posts. But it has some incredible satire on what you're talking about, which is like making your own life your job even. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. That sounds right at my alley. I'm going to have to read it. I think when is it? Yeah. No, I gave up my idea for a book that would have similar elements to that. I just couldn't make it work. But like that's was that's been on my mind too. Yeah. But that sounds great. Yes. So it came out this week. So it is available. I couldn't remember if it was next week or this week. So I loved that one. It was very good. That's amazing. I also bought one and I haven't read it yet. And this is like on a different side of the spectrum.

but something I always enjoy is when somebody takes like rigorous, pays rigorous attention to something that's pretty lowbrow, but like does it in a eyebrow way. And so I listened to this podcast and there was a woman who's like basically a scholar of the Kardashians and she's also a therapist and many other things. Do you know what I'm talking? Deconstructing the Kardashians for MJ Corey? Yeah, I just bought that one.

I haven't read that, but I'm excited to read it. I have followed her substack for years. Okay. Amazing. But yeah. And like they're kind of like the urtext of that a little bit, you know? Like I think one of the very first people who ever was like, well, I actually think we've been doing this all the time in different ways, but there were more mediums. Yeah. Like I mean, people have always been like, like the reason we have cults or even like sometimes movie stars is like a cult of personality.

Right. But the Kardashians were kind of the bridge to like normal people doing that with the rise of social media too. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. They were because I'm so glad you brought it up because I remembered that like while I was reading the bad influence blurb, I'm like, oh, and this is this kept making me think of deconstructing the Kardashians. And then by the time I was done reading it, it had left my mind. That's why I was reacting so strongly.

I was like, yes, I meant to say this. I love it. Great minds think we're our, we work in concentric circles. Yes, we are in the same pop, pop psychosocial arena. Yes, yes, we are. Well, we had one other topic, but I can tell that my hotspot is not doing great. So we might. We might. We might still have to save that.

Yeah, but we covered a lot. We can't want that another time. And I'm sure there will be more literary. scandals to discuss at that point anyway. Truly, truly.