Bookwild - Alexis Henderson's An Academy for Liars: Psychological Magic, Dark Academia and Consent

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

This week, I talk with Alexis Henderson about her new dark academia, psychological magic thriller An Academy for Liars.  We dive into her initial idea for the book, how she explored consent in the context of psychological magic, and the intricacies of free will.An Academy for Liars SynopsisLennon Carter’s life is falling apart.   Then she gets a mysterious phone call inviting her to take the entrance exam for Drayton College, a school of magic hidden in a secret pocket of Savannah. Lennon has been chosen because—like everyone else at the school—she has the innate gift of persuasion, the ability to wield her will like a weapon, using it to control others and, in rare cases, matter itself.  After passing the test, Lennon begins to learn how to master her devastating and unsettling power. But despite persuasion’s heavy toll on her body and mind, she is wholly captivated by her studies, by Drayton’s lush, moss-draped campus, and by her brilliant classmates. But even more captivating is her charismatic adviser, Dante, who both intimidates and enthralls her. As Lennon continues in her studies, her control grows, and she starts to uncover more about the secret world she has entered into, including the disquieting history of Drayton College. She is increasingly disturbed by what she learns, for it seems that the ultimate test is to embrace absolute power without succumbing to corruption...and it’s a test she’s terrified she’s going to fail. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

You know, I grew up reading so many books about magic schools and people who practice magic. And one question that I've always had about that is that so much of the magic that's practiced is essentially a breach of consent, right? Like wizards and witches, even when they're doing things that are pleasant, are not asking for consent before they cast an illusion, right? They're just meddling in people's minds without actually asking if that's okay. Sometimes it's positive and fine. And other times it's not. But I was really fascinated by this question of consent at the heart of the practice of magic. I think that when you create something that's so powerful, it has a capacity for great harm

and act naive as if it can't be used for something terrible or won't be used for something terrible, it'll only be a threat or it'll only be used in a defensive way. It's just, it's, it's, it demonstrates, I think, real ignorance about human nature. This week I got to talk with Alexis Henderson about what will absolutely be one of my top reads from 2024. It's called an Academy for Liars. It is so many wonderful genres together. There's some horror element. There's some really gothic thriller elements going on.

There's dark magic happening. It's a little bit of a psychological thriller. If you know me, you know that all of those in one book was going to be amazing for me no matter what. So here's what it's about. Lennon Carter's life is falling apart. Then she gets a mysterious phone call inviting her to take the entrance exam for Drayton College. a school of magic hidden in a secret pocket of Savannah. Lennon has been chosen because, like everyone else at the school,

she has the innate gift of persuasion, the ability to wield her will like a weapon, using it to control others and in rare cases matter itself. After passing the test, Lennon begins to learn how to master her devastating and unsettling power. But despite persuasion's heavy toll on her body and mind, she is wholly captivated by her studies, by Drayton's lush moss-straped campus, and by her brilliant classmates.

But even more captivating is her charismatic advisor Dante, who both intimidates and enthralls her. As Lennon continues in her studies, her control grows, and she starts to uncover more about the secret world she has entered into. As Lennon continues in her studies, her control grows, and she starts to uncover more about the secret world she has entered into, including the disquieting history of Drayton College and the way her mentor's tragic and violent past intertwines with it. She is increasingly disturbed by what she learns, for it seems that the ultimate test is to embrace absolute power without succumbing to corruption. And it's a test she's terrified she's going to fail. I was glued to this book. I read it while I was home alone for the week, so I was blowing through it as quickly as I could because I was so intrigued by the magic system, by linen, by the expiration of free will versus control.

and consent. She just packed so many things into this book. If you loved 9th House, anything like that, you're going to love this book. That being said, let's hear from Alexis. So I am so excited to talk about an Academy for Liars. It was, I was just burning through it. My husband was actually gone on a work trip, so I was like nonstop reading it. I really, really loved it. But I did want to get to know a little bit about you before we talk about the book. So when did you know that you wanted to be a writer or when did you know you wanted to be an author? Oh, man. I think I've been writing since I was, I don't know, very young. I have like journals where I think I was like two or three and I didn't have my letters yet fully. Like I was just learning my letters and how to read. And

I was already attempting to like write and illustrate back then I wanted to be a writer slash illustrative. write and illustrate my own picture books. So I think it was really young. As soon as I knew that I could write words and form sentences, I was immediately using that to tell stories. But I don't think I really ever aspired to be an author because in my mind, authors were just kind of like, I think it was almost like chosen by God kind of thing.

Like you just are, you are. Like I didn't really have any concept of like that I could do that as a career when I was younger. But I wrote stories through my whole childhood as a big Barbie girl. So I would have these like very elaborate and pretty raunchy, honestly, stories like around my Barbie characters. Like people were cheating and getting cheated on. Like there was just drama and there was a mess. And people were just kind of like, you know, my mom was like, is this normal?

Like, you know, because I had all these like, I mean, full plotlines and backstories for my Barbies. And the stories were dark and people were getting murdered. And so I think that was like an outlet for me for a while. And of course, like, you grow up and you grow out of being able to justify playing with dolls. And so I was like, okay. I mean, I still love Barbies, but I think at that point, I was an avid reader, and I love just like words on the page. I love a well-crafted sentence, and I wanted to try my hand at writing a whole entire book, like a novel, like the ones that I loved. And then I majored in English because I loved reading so much.

And I just kept writing. And I think somewhere along the way, I was like, why don't I throw some spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks, you know, and try to submit some things I've been working on? And that's kind of how it happened for me. That's really cool. I remember doing the same thing. I was like having Barbies like pushing other Barbies off the top of the house, like throwing them to their death. So I feel you with that one. So as you started to get a little more serious about it or as you started like writing a full book, how what is your writing process like?

I think it kind of changes a bit with every book. but I do like to do a pretty fast draft once I have the key plot points. So I think like what I have depends again on the book. I know like I've used like Blake Snyder's story beats in the past, but sometimes it's just like beginning, middle end. I have a key scene for each of those. I like to strike while I like iron is hot and while I have the most like intense passion and excitement about the story and then use that to fuel me through a first draft

before I kind of lose my conviction. And I think by that, I mean, the longer you sit with a story, you kind of begin to pick out, every story has its weaknesses. You begin to pick out the weaknesses. You begin to wonder, will this story sell in the current market? Is this too much like this other thing? Like, is this authentic to me? What are my readers going to think?

I psych myself out, the longer I sit with a story concept. So I like to just in the beginning push as hard as I can, as fast as I can. Yeah. And I'll do like 60,000 words in a month. Sometimes I think that's what I did for like House of Hunger the Year of Dwiching. I may have done it for an academy for buyers too. It's a longer book. So I had like several rounds of writing.

But yeah, that's my process. It's weird though because now that I'm publishing things change, right? Like I can't just pick up and start writing a story when I want to because I have deadlines and responsibilities. And I have to make sure like I do have to consider the market because I have to consider like paying my bills. And I don't want to disappoint the readers that I have. So there are these like new responses. And I won't say they impede my creative process, but I do think that they make it so that I have to be a little bit more creative with the way that I create and try to get myself kind of excited and prime to write stories in a way that aligns with my publication schedule. So that's a skill I'm actually working on now. I haven't figured it out yet entirely. But yeah, I don't know if anyone ever does because I've definitely talked to other people who have like talked about that where it's like I have this really. idea and I'm really married to this, but my agent or my editor or something is like recommending

this based on what's happening in the market, like you're saying. So it is kind of like, I bet it's always a struggle when you're creating stuff to just create purely what you want versus like creating it because it's your job too now. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is definitely a struggle. And I think for me, like one way that I have learned to kind of cope with this is that like I always have an abundance of ideas. Like I showed my partner for the first time, we've been together for some time, I showed her for the first time my like file of all of the stories that I want to write within my lifetime so far. And it's like, it's like 60 different story concepts, right? Like across genres. Like there's so many, some of them are just like a one sentence pitch. Some of them are entire

books that I fully outlined. Like I have an abundance. So having that and kind of fostering those stories, kind of sitting with them, revisiting them kind of over time means that when the market swings a certain direction, I very often have something that's ready. And I think this is the case with a lot of authors. I think I hear like a lot of people talk about, oh, this author's like, you know, chasing market trends, whatever trend it is, they jump in the bandwagon. There's a good chance that author has been sitting waiting for vampires to circle back so that that vampire concept that they came up with 10 years ago can now be published. Like I think that that's incredibly common. And I think that sometimes readers assume that we are just dropping everything to write for the market.

And I'm not saying that that's not the case. I'm also not saying there's anything wrong with that. But I think that oftentimes there's a bit of strategy at play. And authors play a very long game in my experience. Like, you know, the story ideas that I'm working on now, some of them have been with me for like 10 years now, 10 plus years. Like I am working on a story concept right now where the first seat of that idea I developed when I was like 15 years old.

So I think that like, And another, actually two, two of them, one of them I was even younger than that. And so, like, I, you know, I don't know at this point whether either of those ideas is going to be particularly trendy at the time that it's published. You know, trends come and go and books are purchased and sometimes not published for three, even as, you know, as much as four years. from the time that they're like, you know, bought to the time that they hit the shelves, it can be a very long, a long time. So it's hard to kind of predict what the market is going to do. But I think that sometimes, yeah, people can assume that like you're chasing market trends and really you've just been biding your time and waiting for like the right moment to present a specific idea. At least that's, yeah, I think that's what I do. And I talk to a lot of people who do the same. That's one. That's so cool that you have so many ideas. Like, that's just awesome. something, they have that many of them. But the second part, I like how you're kind of very neutral

about it, where it's like, it's not bad to chase trends either. And then also like you're saying, it's like, they may have just had this idea for a while and someone was like, yep, do that one. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's really common. And yeah, I like, I mean, I love the creative side of things. I also happen to love the business side of things. I don't think there's anything wrong with loving the business side of things and kind of being strategic and playing games and not playing games too much but like yeah placing yourself as well as you can and I think that every author and writer owes it to themselves to try to make the best decision for the story they're writing we pour so much time and energy into these books that it makes sense that you want to position

yourself well and I don't think that that's selling out or that there's anything you know wrong with that so yeah I agree I'm with you on that how do you get to know your characters? Do you typically kind of get to know them as you're writing, or do you sketch them out ahead of time? I think they tend to get to know them as I'm writing, which is often a very messy process, particularly with an academy for liars.

Lennon is like unhinged and she's a mess. And I don't think I realized the extent of that until I was really, you know, in the draft writing and she's completely derailing my plot and my plans. because the decision to see mates, makes are so difficult to predict. And I just, I oftentimes have this experience

when I'm writing where I feel like, I meet a character and, and I'm like, okay, this is who you are. And I realize that that's just kind of the mask that they're wearing until I've, like, earned more from them,

earned that vulnerability and kind of, until I peeled back the layers. And sometimes it's a process that takes multiple drafts. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because you do kind of have to like write them to really like live in in their brains to like really get those details.

So that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned you have ideas for like multiple genres. I have read two of your books. I read House of Hunger and Academy of Liar so far. And they both kind of have both horror elements and kind of your really traditional thriller elements too. Is there something about those genres that you're drawn to writing? Oh, absolutely. I think I've always been drawn to dark stories and I think like the messier parts of humanity. I don't know why. As a reader, I think my tastes are a lot more broad. I will pick up a romance or I'll pick up nonfiction. There's nothing I won't pick up as a reader pretty much. But as a writer, even when I'm setting out and I'm like, okay, I'm going to try something different. Always ends up leaning dark and I can't say why. I do know that I grew up on Nancy Drew. I read The Girl with Dragon tattoo at an age that was probably inappropriately young in that. had a real impact on me.

And so I just, I don't know. I think that a lot of the stories that have made a huge impact on me and my life creatively have those, those horror or thriller elements and those stories just, they really speak to me. And I think that that's what I have to contribute to the world in return. I don't know. I think I was just influenced by them in a young age. But also, like, there was those Barbies.

My Barbie stories were like thrillers. Like I could call my childhood best friend Nicole and like the stuff we were, who was like, it was dark. I mean, there was a lot of drama. And I just, I loved it. And I think that there's something that I think we all are kind of drawn to, this idea of like looking past like what we're allowed to talk about, seeing into a mind that maybe isn't entirely healthy or well

and these darker thoughts that I think, you know, we all have to some extent. But like a book that indulges in that and explores that and often humanizes those darker emotions that we tend to feel almost like ashamed of. That stuff is so interesting to me. And I think to a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, someone who mostly reads thrillers, I wish I read a little more broadly. That's definitely how I feel about reading them.

It's like, whatever it is about it is just so intriguing to just be reading with characters who are darker or messier or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I love it too. I think what's interesting is I feel like, you know, something I love about thrillers and horrors, I think there's like a huge tolerance, like a larger tolerance for characters being messed. messy. I think in other genres I'm thinking here more of like fantasy. I think people prefer their characters to be a bit more good. And I love a good character, too. I feel like my first book The Year of the Witching, my character is like very pure, very good person. And then lately I've been trending toward main characters that I'm not entirely sure are morally good. And it's been

interesting because I feel like you almost kind of begin to pull from different audiences more, depending on the morality of your main character. I think that when a main character is kind of like a bit of a mess and not morally great, it kind of peaks the intro. It kind of peaks the intro. of readers who are more kind of grounded in thriller and horror. But then when you know, the character that's really moral in like a dark and horrific world, but they are, they have a moral compass and are trying to do the right thing.

It can kind of tend to lean, I feel, more toward fantasy. Those kinds of things are really fascinating to me because then you have all these shades of great, like what happens when you put an amoral, awful character in a traditional fantasy world. You get something more like a Game of Thrones, you know what I mean? And then you can do the opposite with a pure character. character in this kind of like, yeah, anyway, I love it.

I love that. That's the stuff that gets me excited. I love writing between genres. Yeah. I just finished a book called The Last Party by A.R. Tori. And it is like, in my review, this is the most unlikable character I've ever read. And I was, but also like one of the most craziest, like, suspense through the entire thing. And I was just so impressed by it because it's like, she is the main character.

is terrible. But the way that she's using her to really kind of tell the story around her was so cool. But I was even getting to a point where I was like, what does it mean that I am like loving how dark this book is and how terrible this character is? I think the same thing about myself because I love, I love an unlike little main character. I know that like, you know, a lot of people don't and that's totally fine. I think it's just preference. But for me, like, when someone's like, I hated the main character. That book crawls up on my TVR. Exactly. Because I always know there's going to be some mess when, yeah, when I see that. So yeah. Yeah, me too. So with an Academy for Liars, what was your initial inspiration for this one?

This book, it started out really different. It was almost more of a science fiction kind of world. And it never quite clicked for me. So like a lot of the main characters, my main character Lennon, Dante, who's another primary character in the book, Eileen. They were there, and they were kind of themselves, but the world was completely different. Weirdly, Gregory, was a snake in that version. Lennon always had a little sidekick and pet, but it was a snake in that version. And so, yeah, that never quite felt right. I submitted some material that was kind of a variation of that,

and we were just like, we got to work on this setting. something is not feeling grounded and right. And I kind of went back and forth discussing with my team. And I knew that something was off. And I grew up in Savannah, Georgia, which is a city that I deeply love. And I thought to myself, I wonder if this is my Savannah book. I let me just try kind of writing a story that's more grounded in a place that I know and love. And it was just amazing how once I made that change, the whole story just opened for me in a way that it hadn't before.

Yeah, I really credit my team for that and kind of helping me, helping me, through that process creatively. And I think it's, you know, it's interesting. Someone, someone can point out like, okay, this isn't feeling right, but it's up to me to kind of decide how to fix that and how to address it. And that process I find so rewarding. It's one of my favorite parts of the publishing process. And that's kind of how I, how I shaped this story.

And I think I knew that I wanted to kind of write a story about people who are wielding a corrosive and arguably evil form of magic. So that was always there. And I think that comes, that inspiration, I think, comes from the fact that, you know, I grew up reading so many books about magic schools and people who practice magic. And one question that I've always had about that is so much of the magic that's practiced is essentially a breach of consent, right? Like wizards and witches, even when they're doing things that are pleasant, are not asking for consent before they cast an illusion, right? They're just meddling in people's minds without actually asking if that's okay.

Sometimes it's positive and fine, and other times it's not, but I was really fascinated by this question of consent at the heart of the practice of magic. So I knew that I wanted the magic system to explore that. And I've also been very interested in psychology and the mind. And I knew immediately that Lenin was not well, you know, in that respect. And it made sense to kind of ground the magic system in that as well. So yeah, I think it was in some ways just like the shadow of a lot of like the magical stories. that I love. But also, like, I have questions, and this is my way of, like, maybe not even answering

them, but just asking them in a different one. Yeah, exploring them. Yeah, kind of from what you're saying, it's funny when I've talked about it to a couple of people when I'm like, no, you need to read it. They'll be like, is it like Harry Potter comes up, like when I'm talking about magic and stuff? And I was like, it is, but if it was like R or X rated, I guess, it's like, has been my response because like it's not an uplifting book necessarily at all actually and it's not like

fun in a funny way or any of those ways but i love topics like what you're talking about where you're exploring like control and consent and power balances um i have a lot of questions about that actually too because I thought it was so cool how many ways you asked questions about that. There's a, there's also this line near the beginning where someone says to linen persuasion is morally neutral. It's just a tool really. And I thought that was really cool to have like at the beginning of it too, like her just getting there because it's like which direction is she going to go with it. So did you kind of want to play at like how you could practice? magic in a neutral or good-leaning way?

Yeah, I think so. I wanted the characters to kind of assess whether that was even a possibility. I think my feeling is that even if the tool is morally neutral, humans are not. And most likely they're going to use this for, you know, to do terrible things. I think that we as humans are kind of flawed in that way, even the best of us have, you know, darker motivations. And I think that when you, you know, it's almost like I was thinking of like, you know, the creation of the nuclear bomb here, which I mean, that one I think is just kind of inherently more horrible. It's just violence and carnage. But like, I think that when you create something that's so powerful, it has a capacity for great harm and act naive as if it can't be used for something terrible or won't be used for something terrible, it'll only be a threat or it only be used in defensive way. It's just, it's, it's, it demonstrates, I think, real. ignorance about human nature and who we actually are. And I think that that was kind of what I wanted to explore in an academy for liars is that like maybe the tools in worldly neutral, maybe it's

not. But in our hands, it will most certainly be used for evil. And so should we proceed? You know, so this exists at all. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the, what is that quote? About, like, absolute power, absolutely corrupts basically came up for me as I was, reading it too. And even like, because linen is like learning about the fact that she can like force her will onto others. Like it's new to her still. Did you want to play with her in that to see how she would navigate it without being corrupted? Yeah, for sure. I thought London was interesting because I think that the way she's used herself at least is that she doesn't have a lot of power. And I think there could be some debates about whether she's placing herself in these situations or if she's actually being victimized or some combination of both.

She's placing herself in situations that are unhealthy, knowing that this is going to happen. It's kind of up for debate. But what I do know is that she feels like she doesn't have power. And I think that there's something sinister that can happen when you place a lot of power into the hands of someone who feels like they have not had it. You know, I think that there's a bit of vindictiveness even perhaps or entitlement, feeling like this is finally my time. You know, I can step into this now. This is what I'm owed for what I've been through.

And I thought that that was really intriguing to me. But at the same time, I don't think she's an inherently villainous or terrible person, right? Like she has these moral concerns and reservations. Even then, though, I think she kind of begins to succumb a bit. Or at least those wires get crossed and the situation gets more and more complicated. And I think also like we're really good at justifying things to ourselves. And I think that London does a lot of that. And it's a very slippery slope.

And it was really interesting to explore that progression because sometimes it felt like one step forward, two steps back with her. Or like, you know, I think as a character, she's not always consistent. And I also wanted to explore that within the book because I feel like that's very, human is like you go too far and then you kind of realize oh no I can't go there but then you do again or it's yeah so it was definitely it was messy yeah and it was fun and it felt I related to her because it felt so very human to me and even when she was making mistakes I was just like I can understand how you got to this place I think that right that was my main goal is just you know not necessarily to redeem her or even to like you know write necessarily villain arc or anything like that

just to understand how a person gets to that point yeah Yeah, definitely. There's, yeah, yeah. She definitely has a lot going on as having to make a lot of decisions and, like, a lot of new information coming at her, too. And it was making me think about, I really love dark academia. So I've definitely read my fair share of dark academia thrillers. But a few years ago when I talked with Ashley Winstead about her dark academia,

she brought up how like in college like or especially that like early 20s age it lends itself so well to like thrillers or in this case like horror as well because you kind of have a character who's not completely sure of who they are like everything is kind of in flux for them still and so it's kind of okay that linden is inconsistent because she's like she's still figuring out who she is and like doesn't know what she wants necessarily from life. So did you, was there anything like purposeful that made you want to write it kind of like a dark academia thing or did that just kind of develop as you wrote it?

I think I always had an institution at the heart of my story. I think in an earlier draft, it was kind of almost like leaning away from being academic and it was almost more corporate. And I think there's still kind of echoes of that right. Like the school has its own agenda. There is money that's trading hands or these shadowy donors. But I think that was more prominent in the early draft. And I initially realized, though, that my main fascination was one in learning how to use

this power and grappling with it. And, of course, I felt like the best way to explore that would be in an academic setting. So it was also like just a very happy coincidence, too, that like at the time dark academia is kind of gaining steam and becoming like something that was more in demand. I had the privilege of reading Babel before it was. published and it like absolutely blew my mind. I love the secret history and I was just like really excited about writing something that could kind of speak to a lot of like similar themes. And I love like morally great characters and a lot of those tropes. So it just fit me,

it fit very neatly. I think they're on the shelf. But originally like my main idea was just like a magic school for really like messed up adults. And I think that that, you know, again, it's just like it naturally finds its way to that to the dark academia spot on the shelf. when you kind of approach it that way. And I love the genre for that. I think something I'm really fascinated by is the way Dark Academia is becoming so many different things. You have now all these magical Dark Academia stories, which I think are super cool. And then you have more like ones that lean into thriller.

And I've seen more romance. And it's a fairly, it's a broad subgenre. And there's so many different ways to approach it. And so, yeah, I was excited to kind of contribute in my own small way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the other element to it that is kind of useful in a dark academia sense is that linen has a somewhat

or it's headed toward an inappropriate relationship with one of her advisors Dante and i thought it was really cool like i felt like you genuinely explored the gray area of that so like speaking of power imbalances and stuff again it's like he there is a power imbalance like he has lived more life or lived more life than her and he is in a literal position of power above her at the same time. But she also is old enough to give consent and it's not, he's not hanging something over her. Like you need to do this with me so you can get something. So that part's absent as well, but there is still this gray area of that relationship. So were you kind of wanting to have that in there for the same like themes?

Absolutely. I felt like the romantic relationship was another way for me to explore the themes of power and balances and what we choose to do with power and the way it can corrupt us. And I love it when a romantic relationship can kind of represent or function as a metaphor for like a core theme in the book. So it's definitely something that I wanted to explore. I was terrified to do it though. I really did think. I don't know if I should get this part out, but I really did think that I was going to get canceled. I hoped that people would understand. that as an author, I'm not condoning this. I'm just exploring this within the context of a story that's, again, about people practicing what is essentially a breach of consent. And the question I kind of asked myself, well, it was if someone would wield a power like this, would anything stop them from entering into a relationship that had a power imbalance? Like, would that even register to them morally? Like, you know, and how would that be unpacked?

How would these people whose whole career? It's being essentially like mind magicians that meddle in people's minds without them knowing or without them giving them the go ahead. Are they going to be like, no, I'm not going to have a relationship with my professor because that's like a misuse of power. I don't think so. You know, so I think that it was, it was, that was interesting to me. But at the same time, I wanted to, I wanted to address it and handle it for what it, you know, for what it is, a relationship that is about a power imbalance. That is in many ways. I think, you know, there's a quote in the book that Dante says himself.

it's not right. It's not moral. But then, you know, I know many people whose, you know, relationships are parts of the relationship, aspects of their relationship are not inherently moral, you know. Right. And exploring that dynamic was really interesting to me. Yeah. I don't know.

It was fascinating. I think that it's kind of interesting to explore what happens when two people who are, you know, they by they they themselves admit that they're not necessarily good people and when when they interned to that relationship like what that looks like um yeah because i think most of us don't always show up as the best version of ourselves in relationships um at all like you know we try our best but it's it's the kind of next level when it's like two people who kind of that that is a consistent state of being is like that they're kind of amoral or not moral people and and how what that looks like and that was fascinating to me Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, their arc, their character arc together was, I loved it and I'm talking around spoilers, but I really loved the way you used their relationship at the end. But that's, that's all I'm going to say right now. You kind of talked about it, but the school is in like a hidden pocket of Savannah is kind of how it's talked about, which is really related to the magic system too. But how did you like kind of. to craft the magic system and the way that a school could exist like in the middle of a real city.

That was really fun. I think that was one of my most exciting parts of the writing process for me. I really love portal fantasy stories. Like I grew up reading the Chronicles of Narnia and I love the idea of these kind of like thin boundaries between our world and another. and I think I really wanted to explore that within a place that, you know, I grew up in Savannah and it feels like home to me. But if you've ever been to Savannah, especially if you're downtown, you'll notice that there's sometimes it feels like there's almost like this vibe of like you're stepping into another world. It really feels like being in another time.

But it's also considered one of the most haunted cities in America, if not the world. And when you're there, at least when I'm there, I feel it. It feels like there's almost something on that other side of the curtain, like just beyond my reach. So it was surprisingly natural to kind of set this magical school there because I felt like it could almost be real. I always feel like Savannah has tricks up at sleep. There's something paranormal or otherworldly happening there. And if I could just see it or grasp it, like I'm so close, but I can't quite. And I think, yeah, that was all Savannah for me.

It was just kind of following that feeling. Yeah. So what is really crazy about you saying that is like I grew up, my dad was the pastor, like very, very. very conservative Christian. I wasn't reading Harry Potter because it was like demons and the mark of the devil and all of that. But what's wild about what you just said is one time we went to Savannah for just like, I think it was fall break or something like that. And I remember being there and I happened to be reading. I have thought about this multiple times and still have not found what book it was. But it was like a YA book where it was like a ghost, a male ghost, like falls in

love with a living female, basically. I cannot think of what it was for the life of me, but somehow I had gotten it from the school library. So I was reading it while I was in Savannah. And I started having the same feeling. Like a lot of the same feelings that you're saying is what's crazy is like I started like writing like, I don't know where it is. I've also wondered if it's in any of the bins I have for my childhood. But my dad had like yellow legal pads there for some reason. And I was just like writing this like ghost story all just because we've been in Savannah. So that is wild to me because like ghosts weren't like like it wasn't like our family talked about them. It wasn't like we watched anything like that.

And I had that same feeling when I was there. That is crazy. I think you're in tune to it. Like you can, you're picking out on those frequencies. I feel like that is so. Oh, how much it's crazy. Like I remember like we were on like a cobbles because there's a lot of, or not cobblestone, but maybe like brick roads. Yeah.

No, there's for sure cobblestones too. We put your ankle on them. Yeah. Yeah, I bet. And I remember just like passing this because like exactly what you're saying, that was a good description. It like does feel like you're even going into another time or another place. And like there's just this huge old white house with like pillars or columns or pillars. I don't know, either one. But all of a sudden I was like there's a ghost in that house. I need to write a story. Oh my gosh. That is. And I bet there is one. That's crazy. I need to go back as an adult. That was like probably probably 50. 15 years ago, but I'm going to have to make my way there again. Back to your story, though, it really explores free will, which is something I actually will have just had an episode air where I talked about it with another author who wrote The Astrology House. So we were talking about fate versus free will for that one. But your book really dives into it, too, because of a lot of the things we've already talked about.

There's kind of like the breach of consent that's happening. And there's this contrast that it's like students learning from professors who forced their will on to others, basically. And so it kind of grapples with what free will is and the importance of it was was free will something that was like in your mind as well when you started writing it. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It was interesting when you mentioned that you had no very Christian background. I grew up the same way. And I remember at the time there were these huge theological debates.

The Calvinist versus Armenian, I think, like, about, you know, free will versus the predestination, like, whether our destinies are chosen for us, or if we, by God, or if we have the ability to kind of chart our own course and God kind of leaves us hands off. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I remember growing up and hearing, like, a lot of the adults in my church kind of debating this one way or the other. There's, like, some fierce feuds over, you know, this piece of theology. And I think it's a really understand why. It's a fascinating question. And I think that was something I wanted to explore within the context of the story. It's like when you have this power of kind of being able to influence minds and kind of take a choice from someone, what does free will look like?

Is that a thing that exists if we're all being somewhat influenced by people more powerful than us? So yeah, that was definitely something that was fun to explore. And I think, again, through the eyes of one and two is a character who's in some ways being manipulated, right? These people are manipulating and learning to manipulate at the school, Drayton, but Drayton is also manipulating them. You know, they've all been chosen at kind of like the lowest moments of their lives. You know, I think Drayton could very well pull the best and brightest, but they don't. They kind of are choosing students that in some ways have a dependence or need the school.

And that kind of becomes a really twisted relationship where these people are unethical for participating in this, but the place where they're learning how to do this, this unethical thing and the magic, is also manipulating them. And therefore, are they really choosing it? Or can they choose to detach themselves? I mean, it's, yeah, that was super fun for me. Yeah. Yeah.

I loved reading it, obviously. The other thing that I thought was cool is you almost have, we were talking earlier about, like, messy characters and the darker size of ourselves. You kind of have, like, a literal shadow representation. of the characters that you kind of play with that like in like therapy you'll kind of talk about your shadow self and it's okay to be in touch with your shadow self even though it seems really scary because it is where some of your darker stuff lays or lies. I don't know which one it was correct for that. But what like drew you to kind of making even just like this physical manifestation of like the darker side of the characters? I, when I was younger, I went to this department store. I mean, I was probably like, I was under 10. I was really young.

My mom was trying to close. It was like a JC Penny or something like that. Like real liminal space vibes. I was waiting in the dressing room. And they had one of those, like, big pedestals that you stand on. And it's like between two mirrors. Presumably so that you can see the front and the back of your dress. But it was creating this like infinity vibe.

And I remember looking at the mirror. It's such a vivid memory for me. I remember looking kind of in the mirror and seeing all these different versions of me and having this love. Like, what if one of them just didn't do what I was doing? Like, what if I'm waving my hands, but what if one of them was just still? And that idea kind of always stuck with me, like as an image as a concept. And so I was kind of surprised. I'd almost like forgotten about it.

And then when I was writing about London story, I kind of remembered this. And I think that was the seed that kind of launched the idea. And I think, yeah, now as an adult, I know a lot more about like shadow selves and the parts of ourselves that maybe seem rebellious or don't want to kind of align with our own sense of like morals or who we are. And, you know, the things that we shun about ourselves and put away. And I liked the idea of that manifesting itself and this idea of like a reflection that is just like I'm not, I'm not going to listen to you. I'm going to do what I want to do. And having Lenin kind of grapple with that quite literally face to face through the mirror was a really cool. Yeah.

Yeah, I loved that visual. And what's cool is you start off with it essentially. So it's kind of like the, it's pretty almost the first page. It's not really the first page. But in that first chapter, you get that visual with her looking into the mirror and seeing like another darker version of herself. And I remember because I hadn't read any of your books at that. point. And even just in the first chapter, I was like, this mood is amazing. Like, I was so obsessed with, like, the tone and how everything felt, even though, like, she wasn't to Drayton yet.

I was just so pulled in immediately. I thought that was a really powerful way to start it off to and, like, set the tone for the rest of it. Thank you. I had a lot of fun with that scene. It was hard because it took me a while to get there. Like, I had a couple opening scenes that just didn't work, but that one was the one that clicked. I'm really happy and relieved that you liked it. Yeah, I was like, I just like knew. I was like, I'm going to love this book. And then I did.

So I think everyone, anyone who needs a dark moody or dark academia or dark magic, it has so many things in it for their fall reading list. You guys definitely want to pick this one up. I have been asking people at the end if they've read anything recently that they love. So have you been reading lately? Yeah, I have. One thing that I read recently that I really, really love and I still think about it all the time is so thirsty by Rachel Harrison. Yeah, I've seen people post about it. I love it. If you love, like, messy characters and characters that are adults are still growing up and figuring themselves out, but also like violence and horror and blood and all of that. It's fantastic. And I just like I thoroughly enjoyed it. I also think that like if you read a lot of thrillers, like this. This might be like the horror novel for you if you're kind of interested in kind of stepping more toward horror.

I think that it would appeal to a lot of thriller readers. Because one thing I love about thrillers and that's something that Rachel Harrison also does really well in her horror novels is where characters feel so real and they have this real sense of interiority. The dialogue is freaking stellar and fantastic. I don't laugh while I'm reading books ever. I'm just like I don't, for some reason I just need to see characters usually to have that kind of like comic response. But I crack up every single time I pick up a Rachel Harrison book. Like her one-liners are so good. She's extremely funny.

But the characters just feel and their relationships feel so lived in and real, like people you would really meet. Which makes the things that happen to them even more scary and intense. So, yeah, so thirsty by Rachel Harrison. It's perfect, especially for the Halloween season. It's a vampire book. I didn't even pitch it. I'm just like, read it.

It's good. You're right. A once-in-generation talent. And she really is like, her writing is fantastic. but I would highly recommend so thirsty. Yeah, I have to because you're the second person who's now given her a glowing review all around. And I've just been, I've been reading more that's a little closer to horror. Like maybe not strictly horror or whatever.

But I've just been reading more of it this year and loving it. So I need to read her books. That's what I'm, that's what I'm learning. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think if like, if you're kind of leaning toward a horror, if you like my work, I can't see you not loving Rachel. work. It's, it's, um, she's really talented. I don't know. I read every time a Rachel Harrison book comes out, I like, I hear about her books coming out. I'm like, great. My reading is figured out. Like, I will have a good reading year if only because Rachel's putting on a book and I know

I'm guaranteed to love it. So yeah, huge fan. That is so cool. Well, I'm going to have to pick one up. Um, where can people follow you to stay up to date on everything? Um, I am on Instagram is at Lexis H-L-E-X-I-S-H. And my website is Alexis Henderson.com. And you can subscribe to my newsletter via my website. So those are like the two places I hang out these days. I lurk on threads, but I don't post. I just like to read.

Yeah, I feel you. I am so glad you said that out loud because this whole time I was thinking your handle was Lex-ish. Like I thought it was like a play. And I actually, I might start saying that because I think it's actually easier than Lex's age. It's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, that makes more sense since your last name starts with an age. I will put those links for everyone in the show notes and thanks so much for talking with me today. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, me too.