Bookwild - All Our Thoughts About Good People by Patmeena Sabit with Erin Ashley

Episode Date: May 23, 2026

This week, Erin Ashley is back, and we dive into all our thoughts and reactions to Patmenna Sabit's stunning debut novel Good People!  THIS IS A SPOILER EPISODE. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I'm back with Erin Ashley. Hey. I think we're going to kind of, I mean, I like, I love talking with you about Ken. And then we're going to talk about good people this time. But that might become our thing. We might just talk about books that we love together. Well, I know, because we're also both reading FamSick right now. Yes.

Oh my gosh. It's so good. It's so good. I'm just, I remember reading. I can't even remember what her first one was called, but I remember reading her first one when I was in college and being like, wow, this 20-year-old seems to like have a great grasp on just like talking about anything and just being like, how is she this age but like feels like maybe wiser than me in the sense that like she'd had

more life experiences, I think too. But I remember reading it and being like, wow, she has like a very specific voice, a very specific tone. She like can really bring you into an event that happened to her and then this one is like that on steroids i kind of think yeah it's so good and i think the thing too is like people feel like lena dunham is cringy right like people either hate her or they don't like well i guess that's the same thing i was i say either people hate her or they love her yes i wouldn't say i love her but i do enjoy her i think she writes really well um and i think like because she writes so well that's why people also don't like her i know yeah But I'm listening to it and then I'm also reading it on my Kindle too.

Yeah. And I appreciate, I feel like her voice comes through on both of them really well. Yes, I agree. Yeah, I was reading some of it when I was up early this morning. So I was reading without the sound since, you know, I wasn't going to wake up, Tyler, with Lena Dunham's memoir. And I agree. She, her tone comes through whether she's reading it to you or you're reading the words. So we might have to do that one next.

I definitely have a lot of notes on that one. Well, I need to. I only wrote notes about the dedication. I heard the dedication. I didn't read it in the Kindle. It was so funny to me. And it's not funny, but I was like, why is she dedicating it to these people? And then at the end she said why?

And I was like, oh, okay, girl. I think I felt like I knew, I guess I won't say it for any. who wants it to feel like a spoiler moment, but it goes really well with the title is what I'll say. I was like, I think I see where we're headed here. No, when she said Whitney Houston, I was like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I have, I think I have two hours left. Oh, you're far. I don't know how many pages are left, but I think I have two hours left. I was burning through it. I did a lot of driving yesterday, so I just kept it on and chores. George was like, could do sitting down. Oh, yeah. But yeah, we keep in that, that was an unintentional, like, we didn't even know that we were

both reading it. Good people, you already had on your radar, right? And then I was like posting about it. And then we were like, let's do an episode. Well, yeah, because so I keep going to the bookstore and buying books. Yeah. And I don't read them. Good people I bought one day because I went to go buy a cookbook.

And I was like, oh, I'm going to buy this book too because it looked interesting. and I had got it from Barnes & Noble, and it was one of their, like, Barndes Noble picks. And, like, I have a bookseller there who's, like, my favorite bookseller friend. And she was like, oh, Aaron, you'll love this book, so then I just bought it. So I had it on my bookshelf. I just had read it. Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember how many different people I saw, but it was, like, multiple people I talked to,

like, not just, like, acquaintances on Bookstagram. We're raving about it. And I am absolutely a sucker for a like transcript told story because of all of the reasons that it was used for this book too. It's like we'll get into more of it too. But like it's such a good way to show the court of public opinion. Yeah. To have everything through transcripts. And you're never actually in anyone's head.

So that intrigued me already. And then I just kept seeing people say how good it was. And I was like, okay. And then I saw some people, to the point that it's all in transcripts, some people talking about how the audio was fantastic. And it's a full cast. And I think that kept me locked into, because like you have like the voices change. There's a lot of like information to get used to at the beginning. And I think the audio kind of helped me a little bit with it too. Yeah. I had it obviously in print. And then I also listened to the audio, the same. same time. I feel like if I would have just read it in print, I don't know if I would have

kept, like I don't know if I would have got it the same way I got it from listening to it. Yeah. But I do think because the audio had so many different voices, it made me go back to the book to like highlight something that they said or like, oh, that was what that meant. So like, I think, yeah, the audio was good. Yeah, it really is. For anyone, I mean, we are going to get into spoilers pretty heavily. So I'm assuming most people have probably even read it at this point that are listening. But if you want a very short rundown of what it's about, basically a 17-year-old, I think girl dies under somewhat mysterious or not totally explained circumstances. and the whole book is like members of the community talking about her and her family.

And some of the members are Afghan, like their family is, like the Shraff family is. Some of it is people who are American, definitely white, is the vibe from some of them. So it does this amazing job of showing everyone's bias. while also you're like very hooked because you want to know what happened to Zora. Yeah, that's all you need to know. And then just prepare to want to just sit and read or listen. Like you are going to want to just like consume as much of it as you can. Yeah.

Yeah. It, yeah, it had a lot of things going for it that I love in stories. So I'm not surprised that I was like, I think I need to pick this one up. but kind of from I'm thinking like I don't totally remember exactly where we start I think we start with a neighbor kind of talking about the time that the family moved in um and even like that you're hearing like some of her thoughts about like oh what what about this new family moving in and like she just kind of has the vibe of like a nosy neighbor but maybe not maybe not negative just nosy yeah um And so that kind of sets the scene. And I don't know. What did you think like in the beginning parts? Where did you kind of think the story might be going?

Oh, girl. I don't know. I didn't really, I didn't really know because I think, yeah, without giving away too much, I think when I first started reading it, I had a very exact idea of where I thought it was going to go. So like, like how you set that first test, or from the first. interview and then the lady had said like she wait she came back out to wave at them but they had already left yeah and i think some of the people who they interviewed in the very beginning like the person at

the store when they had came in and they said that the kids were disruptive but the older kids kind of like helped cool them down and they left and everyone was kind of happy yeah i was not sure but i was like uh okay i think she did a really good job initially at like setting the background for the family though yeah which is so impressive because like one of the to me most impressive parts about this book is we we never hear from the family and we're never hearing from zora she's passed already and so it is like even when i was starting it i was like i hope this works because sometimes you know like it could be like a gimmick to do transcripts or it could just not translate well i was like I hope it works, but like even the way to your credit that she like does exposition from the

beginning of the book, you do like you are crafting like who you think this family is and like who you think their neighbors are. And like I think I was, I think at the beginning I was so, I was so ready to just be like this terrible community like or like the people around them probably killed her. Like I was. to think that it was like someone in the community who didn't like their culture or like what they were bringing. So that was like, I think that was the main thing I had at the beginning. But again, one of the one of the best parts of this book is how like for me at least every like 50 pages, 30 50 pages or so, my mind is completely changed.

Oh yeah. Even after reading the book, I still feel like I have three different like three different thoughts about what happened to her still that I still have not been able to figure out. I'm like, it could be this, it could be that, it could be this. But I do think she did a really good job too at making the people the vocal story versus like bringing in like the police or bringing in the journal. They didn't come until later. So I think you're able to use these testimonies and accounts from like Zora's friends

or like the neighbors or the people within the Afghan community. I think you're able to learn so much about the family through these other people. But technically, you don't know if any of these accounts that people are saying are true because then you don't ever hear from the family. No. Yeah. That's what's so crazy. And I still pretty quickly felt myself like building the family in my head and like thinking

I knew things about them. And it becomes the most like obvious that I had like thought. of things about them already when you do start hitting the contradictions like you're talking about. So it's like sometimes I like I thought it was really fascinating to how like, a lot of the their fellow Afghan community feels like they were too lax with SORA in general and we're like letting her be quote unquote to American. And then the like, outsiders' perspectives or like her friends from school, talking about like how strict her parents were and like how they were just like not letting

her be like a typical teenage girl. It's so you are just sitting there and you're like, wait, who would I believe the most in this situation? Yeah, because I think, so like, because I had read some context about the book, um, yes, because I think so I, well, this is not random, but I, like, when I was in college, I took an ethnic studies class, but it was like Middle Eastern ethnic studies. Okay.

And I had got really, really, really, really into everything I was learning because I just found it so interesting because I think sometimes like just naturally there's like a level of, uh, xenophobia that comes like being American and like how you look at other places. So I found it really interesting to like learn about another culture outside of like the American history that we typically learned. And one of the things that I learned about was like honor killings. Yeah.

And that was something that I was like sad about but also so fascinated about because it's so like ingrained in other cultures. And I know that when Pat Mena wrote this book, that was also part of it. of how she wrote this story because there was a story that she was following from Canada, I believe, about an honor killing. And so initially when I was reading it, not necessarily from the American testimony, but the Afghan community's testimony and how they, or not just testimony, but like from different ones and how they had said like she was laxidaisical or they were laxidizical with her, how she was spoiled.

And there's that one man, his name was like Torpki. Oh, Torpikee. Yeah. And he just see, like he. Yeah, but he did not like her because he had said that she was an ugly baby. Like he said all of his stuff about herself. I just thought about that part. Well, I wrote it down and I was like, dang, that's hell of rude.

But he just seemed like he was like not into it. And then technically like some of Zora's actions leading up to it and how she got like ran away. Like I could see how you could think also that's what happened because technically in a way she just honored she did dishonor her family. and then when they're at the party and how, I can't remember his name, but how his dad, like her dad, his friend was trying to do like an arranged marriage and he was like, no, I'd rather kill her and said. So it was kind of like, hmm. I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Once we got to that, I hadn't, I hadn't thought of, I don't even know the first time and might have been the only time I'd heard of honor killings outside of this. So it wasn't front of mind for me going into it. it and I didn't know about the Shafia family until after as well and it's a little bit it's wild how similar like the story is except that it was three children and their mother were but they were they drowned in a I think I saw a Nissan Centra that the the there were two wives to this one man and one wife was barren and so then he married another wife and then there similar thing like the oldest daughter was maybe kind of sleeping with someone and that was bringing shame to their family

and they bought like a Nissan centra for $5,000 cash like three days before the event happened so there I I was kind of glad I hadn't read about that part um until I finished it yeah because it did add to like the suspense and then when we get to the moment where he's like I'll I'll kill her before that happens I was like oh no yeah well I guess like this is just like a question based on that so I yes so I guess like what are your thoughts about like when you read something that's like a fiction book based on real events? Like, how do you like that? Well, in this case, since I didn't even know until the end,

it wasn't like my reading experience was like largely that way. But then when I realized at the end, it made it more interesting to me to then learn about the case that did happen because I was like, even with everything. So like by the end, I'm like, them buying that, car is a little bit weird. Like, I don't really understand how you make that one make sense. There's, like, her phone not being with her is a little bit odd. And then even, like, her, the brother's search history. Like, there are some things where I'm still like, I don't know, I kind of think

that's what happened. However, having had, like, that experience of listening to everything she wrote, it, like, kind of forces you to think that, like, do we ever. really know the truth of any situation is how I felt at the end. So then when I went to go read this story where like it also seems pretty clear that this family did that at the same time. I think it helped me remember like you still don't know. Like even if you think you really know what happened in the real life event that something might be inspired by, none of us actually know. So that was like the unique experience of this book for me was like kind of a reminder that like I'm guilty to of being like, oh, but this and this and this and this happens. And it was making me think

of how easy it is to do that. And then it's kind of like, especially since we read thrillers, sometimes now I'll kind of like ask myself, but like, is there a possible other explanation? And there typically is. So that's how this one made me feel. But sometimes I never know how like people who like fictionalize real characters especially too i don't know i always i always read them wondering how the author chose to fictionalize it you know what i mean like how did they choose like the inner world of this person because it's like technically we don't know that either no i feel the same well i feel the same because i feel like also i feel like because this book didn't have an ending it made me like how i said i keep having like different thoughts of what happened i appreciate that like after they're

something that I can use to reference to like read about something deeper about this but I do think like as I was reading I think it made me think of like how we judge people in situations based on like other people's word of mouth not necessarily even like your own interactions with them but also your one interaction like I mean it's like a plot twist but like when you see like mass murders or something like that people always will say like oh well I saw them I didn't know that they were like that but there's so much depth in inner workings with people that you don't know. So I think it made me feel kind of like, I can't really judge the situation just because I think it's this. It could not be this because I have like, yeah, I have three different motives of what could have been.

Yeah. I know. And then there is technically the possibility that she did drive off the rope. That's the other part. There's like totally a possibility that no one was technically. technically involved in it and she just like woke up angry and took the car that was there but then also the window was open yeah that was that was that's what made me doubt that one because it's like it was raining why would the window be open and we knew she was a strong swimmer so why would she not swam out well yeah but also yes but like I thought she could have driven off too but I also thought like sometimes too like if you even if you're a good driver if it's raining really bad you could like skid off

the road yes i don't think it's called skidding but you could do yeah like you could do that and then also if it's like so fast and so much rain and then you go into the car like and you go into the water even if she's a good swimmer i still think it's still like hard that's true it's still very disorienting too so i was like it could have been that it could have been that's the crazy part I think that because the book does really well reminding us too that like life is a very clear cut and like we so rarely get certainty with a lot of things in life like sometimes we can't even be certain what our own motivations are when we're doing something like sometimes we're just

acting and we don't even not in like an acting sense just like doing something and don't even really know why we're doing it couldn't maybe couldn't explain it. after the fact. And I think that is what is so good about it because it manages to touch on, like you're saying, like the xenophobia of it all. So like there are definitely some people who are clearly predisposed to think like this family's bad. They did this to themselves, like some version of that. But then there's like there's the whole like, she still manages to touch on the like the immigrant experience of like wanting the chance at the American dream. So like that's kind of another reason that like some of their community, other Afghan community members are kind of like, oh, like he started making all this money and they're super wealthy.

And that's part of why some of them start to think they're like being too lax with Zora and letting her be too American. And so it's like even the way she handled talking about like what that experience must be like to be like. And there are some really good quotes. at the beginning of each part because it does go through different parts, which I thought were really well structured. And one of them basically talks about having to leave your home country of origin because of violence and then thinking like, oh, but then there's the American dream I can go after. But then you're also kind of thinking that you're going to go back home. And then like, what is it like when you start to realize like, I don't know, that's going to be an option. There's

still war going on out there. So I thought it also, she did such a good job of like the lack of certainty and then like also using it to kind of talk about these things, xenophobia, the American dream and like the sadness of not being able to return to. Yeah. Yeah. It was she did a lot. I was so impressed by it because truly there'd be times where I'm like, it's these crazy white

people. It's them. It's them. And then I'm like. Oh, because I, I, the other thing that I think stood out to, for me, it looks like I'm like flipping people off when I just hold my finger like that. The other thing that stood out to me was, oh, where did it go? It just left my brain completely. Do you have any of those? Oh, yes. So I have tons of notes. So let me see some things that I wrote down.

because I wrote a lot of notes. I get it. I said, oh, these are some of the notes I wrote as I was writing. And you know it's like bad because I wrote it on plain paper and I wrote it in a notebook because I was just thinking. You're like all of it. So I thought the one thing that was interesting is like how quickly reputation becomes a character in the story because it's a big central theme. I said what is it?

Oh, yes, because also one thing that I thought was interesting, and I still don't have a good grasp on it, so I'm curious to your thoughts are from the title, what do you think that that means? Like, good people? Yeah. Because I'm like, I never was able to get what it was. Yeah. Unless the good people are Zora and her family and everybody else. Like, I couldn't get a grasp on what it was. Yeah.

I think, so I think early on, one of the. of the neighbor says like they just seems like good people. So I think to me, but once I got to the end, it almost was reminding me like, what does it even mean to be good people? So it's like, I don't think the way that everyone was talking about them made them good people either, made like the community members, whether they're Afghan or not. It's like no matter what actually happened, some of those people were still not like being good people toward them or their depiction of them. And so I think by the end it really for me was like what in our quest to decide who is good all the time.

Like is there really anyone who completely qualifies because we all have our moments. So it's kind of a little bit of that for me. And kind of like, I think in different cultures, it means different things, too. So it's like the reason it's called honor killings, which when I was researching it after, there's like addendums that are like, it's actually called like shame killings more like now to kind of like prove the point that like it's not really about honor. That is like naming it something and it mostly happens to women and children. in really extremely fundamentalist religious settings, not even just Muslim.

But so, yeah, I think some of it by the end for me was like, if it was an honor killing, they might have been able to convince themselves. They were being good people because they couldn't have their name ruined and they needed to survive or whatever. And then like the nosy neighbors might think that they're good people for thinking that that's happened and like trying to get justice for Zora. So I think it was making me think of how fast that definition can be. No, I think that's good because I think of like when I was trying to think of what I think about as a good person, most of them did not exhibit it because I think

because I think when I think of a good person, it's a person who like in the context of like talking about people, they are kind, but they also don't have judgment. on another. So like if I think of a good person, like I know I always use the example of my dad, but like if my dad were being interviewed in the same situation, he would probably say like, oh, I talked to the dad or oh, I saw him. Sometimes he's busy, but he looks like a really good father and his kids look happy. Like I think that that would be the only thing that my dad would say, but like in my dad, I would say he's very non-judgmental about people, but like someone who I would say has good attributes and is not fully good, they may say like,

oh, like, oh, she was an ugly child. I don't know why that's like at the top of my head. But you would say more judgmental things about like appearance. You may say judgmental things about like the people. So I thought that a lot of them didn't exhibit it. And I think the only person that did really fully is probably like Zora because she technically is like not speaking about any of this. So she's not speaking about her parents negatively. she's not speaking about her community negatively but i think everyone has cast so much judgment on her

and her family yeah i think so too um my other notes were it kind of vaguely reminded me too of like the concept of well-meaning white people like that as a general concept like people who like say they want i'm well-meaning but they're like not actually they don't have enough context of a situation to say that and I think that was happening on both sides of the family and not the family. Oh, no, I definitely agree with that. I put, oh, I thought it was also interesting because I said how community can hold people together, but also suffocate them in return. That's really good.

Thank you, girl. And then I said, oh, I said that the book asks if people really want the truth or if they want a version of events that confirm what they already believe. Yes. I would completely agree with that. And then I put also the sacrifice and expectation of the American life. And like, I was writing a whole bunch of things because I told you, I got, technically I got six pages in total.

It's always a good sign for a book. Well, I don't feel like I always take notes when I read, but I don't think I've ever at least in like my like out of school years I don't think I've ever read where I took as many notes because I think I because how I said like

depending on your culture you may look at certain things differently I kept writing like things that were happening but I was also thinking of my judgment as I was reading like do I think that it's this way because of this or this person say this

and now I think it's pulling in this narrative. So I feel like I was writing notes about events and things that I want to remember, but also to like get my thoughts in order to. Yeah. Yeah, because I, the whole like strict parent thing is something I resonate with. So that was another thing where like it was reminding me of my biases because I'm biased to believe like a hyper religious family would be that intense toward their daughter. Yeah. But I think the thing that made me feel like they were not as strict, like I still felt like they were strict because I think parents

like my parents were not that strict when I was growing up but I could see people's parents being strict they would not let her go to sleepovers but they let her have sleepovers at their house yeah so I was like if they were very like very very very strict and very evil in the way that her friends that they were I would imagine she wouldn't be able to have sleepovers at all

that's a good point too but maybe not but I was like I don't know yeah yeah It just makes you think about it. What did you think when? So I think it was around like maybe 30% when we find out that she kind of, she like packs stuff in her locker and basically leaves the school. Then she essentially checks herself into a hospital and said that she was like, that she had already attempted to kill herself and that she like mentally felt unwell.

And even for whatever reason, I can't remember everything that was happening around the time that we got that information. But even then, I was like, is she just being a dramatic teenager? Like, initially when that event happened, I was like, oh, my gosh, just because you want to, like, get away from your parents, is this the right way to do it? Because, like, I didn't even know at that point if I believed that, because, again, we never hear from her directly. we do get like the perspective of one of the women who worked in kind of like a shelter that she is kind of placed in but even I as I was listening like at first I was like is she really doing this all about a boy because that is something that teenagers would do would be to do something like that because they think they're in love so even I was like I really hope that she actually did that

But I could, even at that point, I couldn't tell if I thought she was exaggerating or not. I think she was exaggerating. I do think she thought she was in love, though. But it also seems, yeah, I couldn't really place myself in that because I don't, I did know those feelings about boys when I was that young. Same. Yeah, because I'm not about to run away for some little boy. No. But I was like, oh, I don't.

No, because it did track, because it trapped even, like, when she had ran away initially, and then that came after. I was like, it could be a thing. Like, yeah, I think she probably was being dramatic, but, yeah. Yeah. I think that's it. Also, when it sounds like I was thinking really hard. But I think the way we mostly learn about it is we get into the perspective of, like, a security guard at the school. and the way that he was describing it, because he's also talking about, I don't know if this was intentional,

but he also kind of talks about guns in school, which is like obviously part of like his job, too, is to care about that. And I remember I was literally driving down to a book of it while I was listening. And I all of a sudden was like, out loud, just like by myself in the car. I was like, is this about to turn it into a school shooting story? I thought that's about to go. And I was like, oh my gosh. But I think that like, It's not funny with your, oh my gosh. I know. There's just, she did such a good job of like keeping the narrative so somehow like specific and ambiguous that it's like even at that point I'm like, oh, is this where that's about to go? And like it's not where it goes at all.

But I feel like she like also had some like really good, not what you would typically call like a thriller, but some like really creative suspense. with how she told the story. Yes, because one thing I thought was interesting, too, when the car was found, like when she had already died and how they kind of just, like, moved on. But then it was that little boy who saw it and his mom had said that she thought her son was lying, I guess, when he said that he had saw two different cars. Yeah. But I'm like, I think that that was a part that kind of like took me over because I'm like,

yes that was where it really turned for me and I was like did her family really do this to her though that was that was definitely the section well yeah but you know what I thought at first when it was the two cars I thought in my head I can't remember his name I thought he was her boyfriend Sahil I think so heel yeah because I wrote it down someplace but yeah that's what through me because I kind of have left and I don't know if it's because I was talking to someone and they had told me their whole reasoning

about why they thought it was a boyfriend and I was like, oh yeah I could see it being him too like I just left with so many different thoughts and then how it was that and then at first and then also Miriam, her mom how she was like going through so much grief after

yeah like I was like hmm that's interesting and I thought another thing that was interesting to me too. And I don't know if, like, it didn't really like come back up in the way that I thought was going to. But when they were in Niagara Falls, it said how they were in the hotel. And it said that Miriam had called her cousin in Australia and she was talking to her. And then they said that Zora was playing on her phone. And then she had changed the photo on her, like she changed a photo on her

Instagram page and it went from like the photo of her by herself to the family of her to the picture of her and her family and it said like forever or something like that yeah which also made me think that it was not an honor killing it could have been her because I also think like you know how sometimes like when people like commit suicide and then they have like their final Instagram photo and it's something like them talking or them saying something like that, it kind of made me think that too. So then I put a dot on that. Yeah. So I had a whole bunch of different, maybe it was like a conspiracy theory in my head. I don't know. No, that's a good point too, though. I remember because it's like that was something that was like, it seems there's like a section where people really

are talking about how she basically she left her house and then was living with her. boyfriend for a little while and then had to kind of swallow her pride and move back in. And I think there were a decent amount of people who said like the relationship seemed to have kind of calmed down a little bit with her family. So that was the part that confused me too, where you're like, if they seemed like that, does it mean that like she, because we also know she was suicidal earlier if we believe what she said to. the doctors. So it's like she still could have gotten suicidal again or just hydroplanes.

Like just being reckless and being a teenager. Yeah. And she could have never got unsuicidal, but also just because your like the honor killing component, I also thought to myself too, like, yeah, it could have been honor killing. But I think some of the, some of the information I feel was like so circling. that it kind of was like, I'm not sure. But then also in my head, too, like, she knows that she did a lot to her family, like,

around her family. Like, whether you want to say that she, like, caused dishonored to her family or, like, she caused a level of disrespect. I mean, like, your parents give you rules and then you just kind of, like, not abide by them. Like, regardless of why you don't do that, that's still disrespectful to your So then I was like, did she still keep her? Because it's kind of like, you know that like you didn't give them respect by anything that you, any of your actions, maybe like by coming back in the house.

But aside from that, everything else was kind of like rebellious. So I. Yeah. Yeah. See, I don't have any concrete thoughts. It was funny that I, of course, this is what's happening. I hadn't thought of how meta it would be that now talking about the book is making me flip-pop what I think.

happens. So you can talk about the book has the same effect. No, it's true because I, so when I finished the book, I was like either because I think one thing that you said that you thought about is that it was the people in the community, like not the Afghan community, but like white people who were uncomfortable with her, like with their culture. I had thought about that at all. Like I don't. Because I think when I was reading it, like I know that there was people outside of their Afghan community who was giving narratives and testimonials, I don't think I really, like, those didn't really give much information to me. Like, they gave enough information to paint a picture of the family or like what they

looked like. But I think the Afghan community's testimonials were more deeper because they had more interactions with the family. So I think I was kind of like really heavily leaning into those. But then also like how later on like the family gets an attorney because. because people kind of keep bothering them about it. I was like, that's interesting that you would have the defense because I think that sometimes too, like, in my mind, you get defense attorneys or like people to help you when you know

that you've done something bad and you just want to stop being bothered. And it didn't help that I was just watching this movie yesterday. And the guy was like a police. I mean, no, he was a thief. Oh. And he kept getting bothered and he got an attorney. But he was really a thief. he was really a fine thief just

I was watching nemesis but then I thought about that but then I talked to someone else when I had first finished the book and she was like oh it's too many circumstances that it couldn't have been the family and I was like I could see that and then I talked to someone else

and she was like oh it definitely was the boyfriend and I was like well I hadn't thought it was definitely the boyfriend I could see how it could be the boyfriend but I feel like when I was reading it I could see how everyone could be responsible. Even Zora herself. But I hadn't really thought about it until you said that until just now.

It's probably the fact that I was, what was it that I had listened to before. It was probably the nonfiction about America that I was reading that had me like prime to be like, this is going to be a community that didn't accept them. So that might be the main reason that was. I could definitely see that. popping up for me too. But yeah, the boyfriend I thought of, that's probably the person I thought of least, but like there were moments. Even with that boy who was saying he saw like four lights and then two lights, I think is the way he phrased it. So when he saw like the two lights or the four lights

and then the two lights, that that was something where I was like, because I think I can't remember this part 100%. I don't have it in my notes over here. But like it's kind of implied that maybe her boyfriend is involved in some illegal activity, right? Okay, that's what I thought it was. So it was like at one point, it was like, oh, did she know something about what he was doing illegally? And like, was he, because we hear that they started fighting more at that apartment. So there was like a brief period where I was like, I see how it could be, I see how it could be him. But it's probably who I least frequently thought of. If that's it does.

makes sense. No, it does because I feel like for a period of time, I've forgot about him. And then it was like the thing about him being, like having, like you said, that activity. So I was like, it could be him too. But I also was like, oh, I forgot he even existed once you went back home. Yes, I know. We're like, we, we weren't like, you know, constantly thinking about him. He also is like, he's not in the community. It's like, I think the reason now I'm remembering, the reason we hear that he kind of does stuff, I think it's his land board that's like he does some stuff, but he doesn't give me any trouble is like the gist of what she says. So I think he's so far removed from everyone else. That's why like we just get a few things about him.

No, I definitely do that. But her mom's grief, you mentioned that. Like that made it seem very honest that that she was just grieving her daughter. But I saw some reviews talking about like, Especially like they, they referenced that ulcer. I thought it was so. Yeah. The way she did put those little details in was so cool because I feel like it's like maybe 30-ish pages ago.

One of her friends just talks about how Mariam was like kept the house, did everything, made sure the house was clean, made sure there was food, took care of the kids, like didn't want anyone else to help because of all kinds of reasons. And so we get like a friend saying like, I really told her like you don't, you don't. don't have to be this stressed out about it. And like, you can rest or whatever. And she basically, that's when we just get this throwaway comment that she developed an ulcer. But then later, when we're hearing about them coming home from Niagara Falls the second time and her stomach really hurts and they say it's the ulcer, you're like, you do have that moment where you're like, I understand how some people could see that her like grief could still be that she killed her daughter and felt that bad about or was a part of it and still felt bad about it. I'm like,

she just does all these little, little Easter egg things that like come back. Well, yes. And I think the thing that was interesting about it, the second time that they mentioned the ulcer is because like you said, it was so far removed. Because if you think about it, like the journalism stuff didn't come really into like chapter or into like part four or something. So they came really far beyond. And I have a note that I'm looking at right now because it said chapter 34 was when it was like the Ashburn journalist and then I highlight it. Miriam told cousin she had an ulcer but it was so random like you said in there so I could see like the stress of hiding it could do that but then I also was kind of like she was grieving so hard that even if you have a level of guilt I yes like

she seemed like she was genuinely grieving but not like she was grieving because she had been part of something and something happened. It didn't seem like it. The one thing that kind of came to mind to me, too, is like, I could also see a world where she heard about, like, where she knew her husband and son did it. Yeah. And she wasn't a part of it, but then became aware of it. And then that would still be, I think you would still have that kind of grief if that was like what you learned. So I could see that interpretation too because she's the one who tries to jump in the grave right or is it dad i think it was it's her it's her yeah it's the mom um yeah that was sad like i was really impressed how she was able to depict like the aftermath scenes where like we are not we're not even like third person in anyone's

head like it is still a transcript i just knocked my camera it is still a transcript using just transcripts was crazy how painful it was still hearing about like like i feel like i can hear her mom wailing even though it was such a removed it's technically a very removed perspective it's just so i can't believe this is her debut no well if you could tell like you don't know it took her so long to write this book it took her 10 years to write it yes i think when you read it you could tell that it took her a long time because there's so many like details in there

that I was just like dang like as someone who's trying to write a book eventually like I know that some people like write an outline some people just kind of like free ball it that was like a bad way to say that

but like people just kind of like do their own thing if like I'm curious if I ever talk to her if I'm just like I would be very curious how she spent time writing this because

people like she's writing all these different like dialogues from people or like different quotes and stuff like that from someone but then she brings them back in a different chapter to a different capacity like I just I'm curious if she wrote this in a moleskin or she wrote it on paper like how she mapped out how she was writing it because it's so many levels of detail that like 10 years seems like not a lot like not that much time considering how much content is in here I agree. Yeah. I would be curious. That's at the point. It is like easier in a just a general way, not a negative way. It would be easier to get to know a story so well over that amount of time to like then know how to, yeah, see, now I need to know. I'm going to have to DM her. Maybe we will try to interview her. Oh my God. Could we do a joint one? Because it would be so interesting because I feel like it's like the web of Kevin Bacon, how they always say it's like, degree of separation.

I could see how you could write this book from like an American perspective, the Afghan perspective, and then maybe like some like recounting from the family. Like I could see how like you could like map that out like within a few like years or something. Yeah. But it's like at some point I was counting. I think it's like 20 something people that are in this book or it could be like beyond that.

And then you're still putting in like storyline from the family who never ever speak. but then they're part of people's commentary, but then you have such a painting of the family from the narratives. Like, it just seemed like that would be something so... I agree. I really want to know how she wrote it now. Yeah. Because, yeah, there's, there are, there's like a version of an author who would, like, write the whole, the family's entire story, like, just for themselves even. Like, they would, like, maybe need to know everything that did happen with the family and then riff on it. with the community members or to your point, maybe you write it from like each group's different

perspectives and then weave it together. Yeah, I will DM her because I am so intrigued. Like it's such a compelling format that actually gets so much across. No, and I think that that's the difference. Like there's books that you read. Like if there's like how you just said like if they weaved it together that way, if you told just one, one part of this story from one perspective, it would be a good book. Yeah. I think the thing that makes this a superb book and like why for me it's like a five star read for sure is that it is I got lost of my thoughts.

But I think because it was so many different things in one thing, because I also could say like if people were to ask me, did I like this book? I don't know if I liked it. Like I couldn't say like, oh yeah, I like this book. I think I loved this book only because it made me think so many different things. Like I like not having a clear cut answer on what I think happened. I like that I still have finished this book like two weeks ago and I still have not been able to like stop thinking about it because I'm still trying to think of the theories.

And I think that that's why this book is such a good book. I completely agree. I think that was kind of what I said in my review too. Like it just left me with so much to chew on. And I do love that feeling with a book. I was actually, I had that same feeling coincidentally with Mother Mary as a movie that was just in theaters. It might be out of theaters already because I know it was like a very limited release with Anne Hathaway and Michaela Cole. It was fantastic and not very many people have seen it.

And I get it. It's not like the summer blockbuster. But I had the same feeling because I think I saw that one three weeks ago now. And I was in the shower yesterday, and I was still like, I wonder if anyone else wondered that thing about the ending that I did. And it's like, it's been so long since I even watched it. And then I had that same, I saw obsession last night. Who, that book, that movie is wild, wild. With Beyonce?

Or what? With Beyonce? No. Oh. Oh. Oh. No. I know what you mean, but

No, this is, it's like a, it's the horror trope of like, a boy finds a make a wish thing in a magic shop and wishes that the girl he loves would love him more than anyone else in the world. And it, the premise is so simple. And it gets so horrifying so quickly. And it has a lot to say about autonomy and content. And, and, and it has a lot to say about autonomy and consent. And, and, and, and, you know, and, it's, and, and, it's a lot to say about. And actually, to our point about good people, quote unquote, good guys and nice guys and what that actually means.

So basically that movie, when I got to the end as well, I was like, I am going to be thinking about this movie for weeks. So I'm with you. I do that I even say with this one, I was like, it's hard to say like, oh, this book is so great. You'll love it because it is like it's sad. No matter what happened, it's sad. And it's like, but you're just kind of like, if you, I think I saw someone say it also is the same feeling of like seeing a car crash, but like you can't look away and you just like want to know everything about what happened. That's kind of what the reading experience was like for me was like, oh my God, what really happened though? Yeah. Well, I think that is a thing because I think the commentary from people felt like it felt salacious enough that it felt like you were getting like gossip. But I think also like what I was. I left from reading this book is it made me think about myself and how I judge situations

in people. Yeah. I feel like I would probably be like a little bit more like I don't think I'm very judgmental, but I think if I feel judgment coming, I feel like I would kind of be like, hmm, like, why am I judging them like this or what am I? Like what is the issue? I think it like in a way, I feel like depending on how you take this book is also like a reflection of how you see externally, like a, just kind of like holding a mirror up to yourself in a way.

That was another, that was another movie that really did, uh, uh, kind of mine what is a good person. Oh yeah, for sure. And the, the way that they structured it with like the honeymoon phase, like him writing his vows and then they change over time. I even think that was like, like, you don't, you don't know. You, no matter how well you know or how close you are to your partner. there are things you will never know about them. And I thought that was still a very fascinating thing to kind of focus on. And it changes over time. The longer you know someone, you're not in a honeymoon phase anymore.

You're like, okay, yeah, you're also like just a person. Yeah. No, I totally agree. Yeah, I liked what they did with that. I think I watched it right before I listened to this book, too. Oh, wow. Okay. So it would have been, yeah, like the through line there.

What were the other things? I'm trying to think if I had anything else specific to the book that stood out. I mean, yeah, did you at any point think we might hear from the family? I was like debating like, are we going to get like an epilogue? That was like the only thing. I never thought it was going to like really happen in the book. But there was like when I had like 15% left and I was like, I don't think this is going to. I was like, I don't know if we're going to get any answers. and kind of up to that point, I was like, maybe we'll get like an epilogue of some sorts with them, but we did it. And I was okay with that. No, I didn't want it. Yeah, I didn't either. I do that, like, the structure of the book itself is like so much fun, question mark. Yeah. I thought I made sense to not hear from them.

I saw some of the neighbors that are like, we never hear from the, I'm having a hiccup attack now. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think that was. was ever going to be the point. No, I don't want to hear from them. I mean, it would have been fine, but I think that's not the point of the book. Yeah, it's not. I completely agree. Yeah.

I still don't know what I think happened. All of this has just made me sure that none of us know, and that was the point. Yeah, she did a good job. She did. Pat Mena, I would love to see you write something else, but in a rush, take as much time as you need, because it was worth it on this one. Well, I know. we'll have a new one if it takes another 10 years 2033 yeah which sounds so long

I know it really does um 2026 2036 sorry I thought maybe I was like if was I wrong maybe the book took place in 2023 that was like what I was telling myself well notice you finished it at 2023 right and then it just I think that's what it was you're right and then it takes time to publish like since yeah well i will read whatever she writes i'm very impressed by this did you so we talked about famic have you had anything else you read recently that you really loved oh yes i read enormous wings okay i keep seeing it everywhere tell me more so good in full circle moment actually because the narrator of the audiobook is i cannot remember her name but she is hannah's mom from girls Whoa.

Yeah. I can't think of her name. So enormous fleas. It's so interesting. It's by Lori Frankel, and it follows this lady whose name is Pepper, and Pepper is 77 years old. Pepper gets into a car accident with like this priest man, and he goes like, you shouldn't be driving. And she's like, okay. And he like takes her driver license.

And then her family ends up moving her into like a senior citizen community. where her ex-husband lives, but like that has nothing to do with anything, but he just lives. And so she moves into the senior citizen community and she like makes all these friends. And then she falls in love with this man. And her and the man, you know how like they say in Cedar Citizen communities. Like when you're older, that's when like STDs her in because they are getting it in. But she meets this man. She falls in love.

She gets pregnant. And so she's like 77 and pregnant. And then she, so it's like quirky from that perspective. Because Pepper as a narrator, she's like as a person, she's very quirky anyway. But then she's dealing with pregnancy and she wants to like discuss having an abortion. But because she's in Texas, she cannot have an abortion. So it's like on one side it's like quirky and a fun read. But then it's also like talking about like women's body.

and the agencies you have over your bodies and the decisions for yourself and you're reproductive rights rights i was like where am i going but it was so good and i listened to it as an audiobook and then i read it on my kendall yeah it was so good like i think between like good people can and with love from harlem i think those are like my favorite reads of the year that book was so good i need to it's out now right it came out out on May 15th, three, the remaining 8th, I can't remember. Okay.

Nice. Well, for anyone who's listening right now, I just pulled it up, enormous wings on Audible, and it's $5 right now. Oh, yeah, good. If any, I'm, we're recording this the same week that it'll come out,

so I think it will probably still be on sale, probably. But I was excited when I saw that. And it's Becky Ann Baker, is that actress's name for anyone who is attached to her. And she sounds so good as Pepper. And I think also like, I think reading that like kind of close to fam sick is like, oh, it's like a full girl's moment. Yeah.

And it's so good. And she was actually, I was going to go to the book festival near me. She was speaking. But it was outside. So I didn't go. But allergies are not cute. But do you have all the codewood in the air now? We like just got all the like.

Okay, that might be more Indiana. There are trees called Cottonwood trees and literally these like little fluff like I don't even kind of like the top of a dandelion a little bit when it is that. Yeah, like it literally looks like little puffs of cotton floating through the air. I literally was walking outside and had one get stuck in my nose. I was like I'm not meant to be out here. No, see that's happening. And then it's also like I am not a person who could talk. on my body, I get hot in my face. Yes. So then my face will be sweating. And then I'm just like, I'm sweating and I have allergies and I keep sniffling and my

knee is tripping. So I'm like, I'm going to just stay in my little bubble right now. I stay in the house. Yeah. My first indicator, I get lip sweat. That's the first place I start sweating. And that's when I know my bangs are about to be stuck to my forehead next. Well, no, I got, last week I got heat rash because I got too hot. So I had heat rash on the side of my. my face on my ears and then I had it like all on my chest and I get heat rush like I've got that really bad well yeah because then it looks rashy and it's all like red and irritated yeah

oh we are indoor girls yes I obviously my name is Kate and you know how people talk about like indoor cats we always joke that I'm an indoor Kate's oh yes I love you get it yes I do well now enormous wings is like way up there for me there was another one that was kind of sentimental a little bit like upward bound is that what like yeah i think that was the other one i was yeah it was a jena jinnah whatever jinnah bush pick um a wondrous deeply affecting portrait of the interlocking lives at an adult daycare center in so pal depicting an often overlooked community with extraordinary it in grace. So I think it was like the adult daycare is like adjacent to me to a senior living facility and both of them came out in May or April. So I think that's what I've been hearing about

both of those as just being like somewhat heartwarming a little bit. So maybe I need to put those into my. Well, there's another one similar-ish, but I can't remember the name of it, but I read it on net galley and it just came out it's like good joy bad joy or something like that i can't remember yeah but they've been like they're not in a senior community community but they've been like best friends for like 83 years and one of them like it's a really good book too okay yeah i was starting to see that one a lot too oh it's the same author as the collected regrets of clover that was one of my friends really loves that book hmm i have a walk kinds of books I need to read.

I'm trying to think, what did I? Well, I'm listening to FamSick right now. Really, really loving how she's just so unflinching when talking about extremely vulnerable parts of life. Oh, when I'm reading right now, I'm listening to right now is I'll watch your baby by Nina VL. I don't know how I don't know how it's name. V-I-E-L. Short version, well, I'll just read the blurb that made me requested on NetGalley.

A suffocating and sharp narrative horror novel for friends of Victor LaValle and the Reformatory. A Watch Your Baby is a haunting reimagining of Linda Taylor, known as the original welfare queen. Pursued, scrutinized, celebrated, and vilified, and the impact her image has had for generations. And it is really fascinating the way that she. handling like basically this woman Linda Taylor I need to do more research about her I really have only listened to a little bit of it but I was really excited when I got approved for the audio it comes out on May 26 so it's coming out pretty soon but it's like in 1974 we have someone named Lottie Turner is like the Linda Taylor

inspired character and we know she's like running all these schemes but we also know that it's because she's just been trying to survive. And then in 1994, and it takes a while, we jump into this other character named Bless, who is, she's also running some schemes, but different ones. It is kind of like on a road trip across the country. I don't know as much because I just got to her perspective. But something is kind of like haunting her and following her.

across the country. So I'm I'm fascinated. It's definitely a slow burn. I saw a lot of people saying that and it really is because I think I think it's about like three and a half hours just with Linda or her name's Lottie in the book. And it's like setting so much up and then we switch and it's four parts and everyone says like the way that parts three and part four come together are pretty crazy. So I haven't gotten yet, but somehow blessed and Lottie are kind of linked across 20. years. Another thing that I think is pretty cool that I don't think is really a spoiler to mention is that she's weaving the Haitian goddess legba, I think legba into the story. So I think she's going to kind of do something interesting with like the way the term welfare queen was created

and definitely created towards black women, not white women, even though more white women have been on welfare historically. I think she might do something fascinating with this like Haitian, supernatural queen and then the fact that she's being labeled a welfare queen. So I think there's going to be something that brings that together to you. I've had to let me know. Yeah. It's fascinating. It is very slow, though. Just for anyone who who doesn't like slow pace, it's very, it's very slow, just so you know. Okay. The narrators are really, good too. Oh, was it two different people? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's good. I'm trying to think. What else did I finish recently? There's something else I finished. I'm behind on my reviews, like posting them. Girl, you better get together.

I'm at 84%. Oh, yeah. Yes, you are. Oh, I finished the franchise. That was a fun one. It's like a, it's like a sci-fi. It could, called the Truman Show meets Game of Thrones. I would say it's like Westworld meets Game of Thrones because it's like these, I don't know how much to say, what all is in the synopsis. Basically imagine if like you were a fan of something and you could go live in the world where like all these movies for this franchise have been filmed and that then it kind of starts to turn into reality TV where people are like playing roles but it's also so that's the part that's like west world um and they kind of like divide your brain so that you don't remember who you are offset so then that's a little bit like severance there's a lot of stuff going on um but it's basically speculative fantasy sci-fi by

thomas elrod if you like that stuff that's interesting yeah it is unique lots of perspective in that one too. I love. Yeah. So yeah. That's what we've been reading, and we're just going to keep thinking about good people maybe for the rest of our lives.