Bookwild - Allison Buccola's The Ascent: Cults, Murder and Postpartum Depression

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

This week, I got to talk with Allison Bucola about her new thriller The Ascent. We dive into her cult research, the long term damage of growing up in a cult, and how Ophelia's postpartum mental health contributed to the story.The Ascent SynopsisTwenty years ago, the members of a reclusive commune outside Philadelphia vanished without a trace. The mystery of their disappearance has never been solved. No sightings of the members were ever verified, and no bodies ever found. But the group did leave one thing behind: a twelve-year-old girl wandering alone on the side of the road in search of her lost family.In the years since that morning, Lee Burton has tried to put the pain of her past behind her. She has built a new identity for herself, with a doting husband and seven-month-old daughter, Lucy. No one in her life now knows about her connection to “the cult that went missing,” not even her husband. But new motherhood is proving a bigger challenge than she anticipated. She doesn't want to let Lucy out of her sight even for a moment. She can't return to work. She's not sleeping, and she's starting to have paranoid thoughts of Lucy being harmed.Then a stranger shows up on her doorstep, offering to finally answer all of Lee’s questions about her past—if she could only trust that the woman is who she says she is. As she digs deeper into the woman's history, the safe, stable life that Lee has constructed for herself threatens to shatter. In The Ascent, Allison Buccola has crafted a nerve-rattling thriller about motherhood, identity, and the truths we think we know about our families. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Alison Bucola about her second thriller The Ascent, which covers a lot of topics including cults, gaslighting, psychological abuse, and postpartum depression and anxiety. Here's what it's about. Twenty years ago, the members of a reclusive commune outside Philadelphia banished without a trace. The mystery of their disappearance has never been solved. No sightings of the members were ever verified and no bodies were ever found. But the group did leave one thing behind. a 12-year-old girl wandering alone on the side of the road in search of her lost family. In the years since that morning, Lee Burton has tried to put the pain of her past behind her.

She has built a new identity for herself with a doting husband and seven-month-old daughter, Lucy. No one in her life now knows about her connection to the cult that went missing, not even her husband. But new motherhood is proving a bigger challenge than she anticipated. She doesn't want to let Lucy out of her sight even for a moment. She can't return to work. She's not sleeping, and she's starting to have paranoid thoughts of Lucy being harmed. Then a stranger shows up on her door set up, offering to finally answer all of Lee's questions about her past, but she can only trust that the woman is who she says she is.

As she digs deeper into the woman's history, the safe, stable life that Lee has constructed for herself threatens to shatter. In the extent, Alice Mucola has crafted a nerve-rattling thriller about motherhood, identity, and the truth we think we know about our families. If you get hyperfixated on cult behavior and the long-term effects of being in a cult as well, you are really going to enjoy this book. The prose is beautiful. I would almost call it a literary thriller, but there is so much that happens as well. So if any of this sounds good to you, you need to go grab a copy.

But that being said, let's hear from Allison. I am super excited. I'm here at Allison Mukola, as you guys probably heard in the intro, and we're going to talk about the Ascent. But thanks for coming on and talking with me. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. Totally. So this book, to me, just had so many layers. And you've been on previously for Catcher When She Falls.

So I've asked you all of those questions I normally ask. But with this one, very different than the first one as well, was there anything different about writing your second novel that, like, stood out to you? Yeah, I think it was, it was a very different experience writing the second novel, because the first one, you're writing, it's like very private. And for me, I was writing with a, with a baby at home. I was sort of writing during nap times. I was not necessarily expecting it. I was hoping something might come of it, but I, you know, it's a long shot. And so I wasn't sure what was going to happen. And I was doing like a local writing group, but it just felt like, you know, the first one is like, oh, this is a hobby for me and we'll

see if anything comes of it. And then the second one, I, so the first one was a one book deal, but the second one was sold on proposal. So I had written up like an outline. I had written up for six chapters and then sort of sent it out and it got bought by my publisher. But it was crazy writing this book and just having it be like, oh, no, so people are going to like actually, they're going to read it. This is being written for four people to read. And I think that's like a little, it was a little bit daunting going into it. But it was fun because this time around, you know, I had my agent and my editor, but also had like a writing community that I had built up. And so like support from friends. And it was it was a really fun experience writing it. That's good. I know some people, I mean, it sounds like it still was uniquely stressful. I know some people are so stressed out the whole time they're writing their second novel. But it sounds like, yeah, like when you have more of a community around you, there's kind of like that benefit as well, basically. It's really nice. I mean, I think it's been very helpful just having like my text chain. At any point in the process, I can, you know, reach out to friends and they're encouraging.

But also like if things go wrong, they have ideas, they can support. Like, it's very nice. That's good. So this one focuses on a lot of things, as I keep saying. But one of the big focuses is cults. And I would also say the like long term effects of like being raised in a cult. So I know on Impossar Hour, a shameless plug for another podcast, you talked about how much you even love the research phase. What kind of research did you do for the cult aspect?

Yeah. So I watched a lot of cult documentaries. I read a lot of interviews with cult survivors. I read a lot of manifestos. I was reading through. I knew I wanted to do sort of a 90s cult. So I was reading a lot of books on sort of homesteading and like being self-sufficient and and how that how that works and read a lot about like farming techniques that like obviously

did not make it into the book. But I kept on finding myself drawn to these stories about what it's like to survive and what cult members experience is like after they've left the group. So I feel like a lot of cult stories are sort of focused on like getting drawn in and then you get in and you realize that you're you know you're in a cults how are you going to get out and getting out is sort of this finish line and what I wanted to write about in this book is well what happens what happens afterwards and what is that adjustment to society like and what's it like for someone who like ophelia has never has never been outside the cult before so she's sort of grown up in

this environment this is her world and the new world that she's entering is is our world so I so I did just listen to a lot of a lot of cult survivors talking about their experience and what it was like switching between those two worlds yeah it's i think it's so fascinating because i think i think nowadays we at least have a better understanding of like almost how easy it could be to get pulled into one like and i feel like there's more representation of uh like people who were like who were just like i never thought i would have been in a cult but i ended up in a cult somehow. And so I did like the emotional, just like all of the emotion that Ophelia had been living with. I definitely meant to ask you first, though, what was your like inspiration

point for the story? Was there something that stood out to you that like got your gears turning for this thriller? I think it was a mix of things. So I am just really interesting cults in general and had been watching lots of cult documentaries. My brother and sister-in-law also live on like a smaller sort of like commune kind of situation where they're trying to be more self-sufficient. But it is not, they're not in a cults. They have, they actually like have a good situation that they're a part of. And really like that lifestyle.

So I was sort of interested in this dividing line between. you know, intentional community where things are going well. Yes. And a cult where things are not going as well. And so I knew I wanted to write about that. But I think that the book really took off for me in my own head when I decided that Ophelia should be a mother too and sort of a mother looking back on her experiences. So I do have, I have two kids.

I've got a five-year-old and an eight-year-old. And so have been through, been through like the new mother period. And so they were also like part of the inspiration for writing this book and writing about what that experience is like. Yeah. So a big part of it to that point is that Ophelia or Lee, as she's kind of like taken on as the name in the present, she is experiencing some pretty difficult postpartum depression and anxiety. And so that I thought it was interesting because like you hear about how mother like brings back up your own wounds because now you're like going through the process of like

what kind of mother do I want to be and then you're kind of reflecting on the experiences of your childhood basically so I thought that was like a really effective way to kind of approach this was there something about the postpartum depression anxiety that like stood out to you as like how you kind of wanted to frame that for her yeah I think well I think you sort of touched on it where I think it's a real transition point. You know, you become a mother and then your total perspective on the world changes. And you have all these new anxieties. You have all these new priorities.

It's a really physical experience. It's a really intense experience. You're not sleeping. And so I feel like, I mean, my own experience with new motherhood, it was a really intense period. But it was also mostly, I would say mostly a positive one for me. And I think that when I was like looking back on my childhood, it was. you know, it's just sort of reframed, like, well, what my, what was my relationship with my parents like? And what were they doing? And how do I understand that now that I'm a mom?

Yeah. But I think if you, I think for, if you've experienced trauma and childhood and you're looking back on, you know, the different ways that people let you down. And Lee is definitely in that situation. I think it can be really hard to sort of come to terms with, oh, now that I'm a mother, like, now I understand this in a totally different way. And I think a lot of people sort of relive, relive those experiences through that new lens. Yeah. And a big part of cults is that they do kind of like bring you into their fold. And then often their goal is to isolate you from everyone else so that they have like the predominant influence over your life and your decisions, all of that. And so, where was I going with that? Oh, that follows into the story. I'm trying to be vague. That's why I

forgetting because I'm not trying to say exactly what it is. But that also, it follows her into adulthood that like she doesn't have tons of people around her that like help her process stuff as well. So the isolation theme kind of carries through in both the past and the present. Was that something you were kind of always thinking of doing or did it kind of come as you were writing it? Yeah, I wanted her to feel like she was not really fully. a part of this world, which I think is an experience that a lot of cult survivors have. And she, you know, she has, she does manage. So she, so Aphelia, um, is abandoned by the cult at 12. And then she goes to live with her aunt and uncle and her cousins, um, and has a very

mixed experience at that house. So she does have some like family that she can go stay with, but she doesn't know these people. It's an adjustment for them letting her in. And I wanted to sort of explore that transition and what it's like. And then I think also, I think with the the motherhood piece of it, I mean, Ophelia went into that isolated. But I do think that like a big part of becoming a new mother for a lot of people is that you sort of feel isolated and cut off from people. You know, you're in the house. You're sort of tethered to the house with this newborn. Again, you're not sleeping. So it is like, there's some like, my sister-in-law is always like, it's the most acute form of torture. in your life is when you're not sleeping and have something completely dependent on you.

It's really intense. And I do, and, you know, if you're, if you're around family, I think that experience can be a little bit different. But if you're not, then you're just really cut off and just kind of like trying to figure out the world for yourself. So I did want like a heightened experience of that for Ophelia. If you're an author, chances are high that you just want to spend your time writing and maybe reading, not thinking about social media, what to create, and what to post. And the good news is,

I have a solution for you. With just three hours of in-person filming, you can receive 90 days or three months' worth of social media content. The content is a mixture of videos, photos, edited reels, and when you receive the content, you also receive a PDF that's a content calendar that links to all of the content tells you exactly when to post it and gives you an option for captions. And if you've ever felt like you're tired of just talking about your book all the time, we will help you come up with ideas that are general content for your page that's not just all about your books. If you are tired of thinking about your social media presence and just want to get back to writing, check out the link in the description. Yeah, it would be, yeah, her scenes with her aunt and her cousins are just

like it's like going from the cult to then going to this like still not necessarily a helpful or like healing family to be around so I feel like it just like compounds to her like the fear of just like who is safe yeah um which I just I resonate with um I think one of the other fascinating things to me about cults is how much it's like what we decide to call a cult and what we don't. And so like, so like even when I was in therapy, I have a lot of religious drama. So that's where I'm coming from where even like some of the stuff my therapist would be like, so some of this like it is like a cult when it's like extreme religion, but we don't always, at least in America, say that about Christianity, essentially. So kind of like, I'm going towards

like how hard it is to like recognize when you're in it as well. Because like, it's, just seems like it's like kind of whatever. And so how did you kind of approach how she like, in some ways, the safety of the feeling of like having someone telling you exactly what to do still seems appealing. And I think that's kind of why she kept feeling drawn back to it. So how did you approach kind of like that part in her character? I feel like I just rambled. No, no, I like that question. I did want, you know, she she starts out her life in this group. There's Christopher as the leader. I think she experiences that part of her life a little differently from from a member who, you know, sort of opted into this group and chose to follow Christopher.

He's sort of in the background and she is a, she's a child in this group. But I do think that that influences her decisions. So then she's, so then we're, you know, when we're in her, the adult phase of her life, she's married to Theo, who I had a lot of fun writing. Theo's her husband. He is a defense attorney. And Theo is a lot more comfortable in the world. So he, he sort of grew up wealthy. He grew up in Philadelphia where they live now. He has an overbearing mother who is, who is close by and a big part of their life. But he is, I wanted Theo the whole time that I was writing to be sort of a norm enforcer. So he is comfortable in this world. He is sort of bringing her into it. And I wanted Ophelia to be sort of searching out, seeking out someone who, who,

who could play that role in her life. And I do think you're right that it's, you know, the term cult is so, it's so slippery. And it's in part slippery, I think, because it is just, you know, bad is like baked into it. So as soon as we're using the term cult, it means like something has gone wrong in this situation. But there are lots of things in society that are that are cult-like or lots of dynamics in society that sort of echo some of the dynamics that make cult so harmful. And I did want, I wanted her to be sort of seeking out some sort of structure that like, is it good, is it bad? Is it good for, is it good for her? So yeah. So I think that that that role that it played in her past sort of has echoes in the in the present yeah the and the other thing that really stands out is like

we mentioned it a little earlier is like her family just disappears and just leaves her behind so she's also kind of working against this like extreme feeling of abandonment and then that kind of again I'm trying to be vague it teaches her to like abandon herself as well sometimes like not always advocate for what she's truly thinking. Yeah. And it makes it easier to gaslight her, essentially. I try not to say about what. But was that like, I thought it was kind of a unique premise where it's like it's not

that she got out. It was that she was left behind after all of this like mentally unhealthy childhood, essentially. So did you kind of know you were going to want to go that direction with her? life as well. Yeah, I did. I think that, well, I wanted her, part of the reason I wanted her to be left behind is because she does have, I thought it was important for her character to have these conflicted feelings about this group that she grew up in, which you see a lot when you, when you hear cult survivors talking about their experience. It's not just like, oh, I realized that was bad and I'm so happy I got away from it. A lot of times there's, like, people will

express like ambivalence or the desire to like even go back or to be a part of this group again. And I wanted, I wanted Ophelia to be feeling that. And so it was helpful that the group was gone and she wasn't able to access them anymore. And she has these mixed feelings about about, about that not being a part of her life anymore. And then I did, I mean, I think like in my own, my own experience with motherhood, I do, like, like keenly felt in those early days, just this fear, like you're looking at this baby who wasn't here a few days ago and there was so vulnerable and you're just like, I like, I'm terrified that something is going to happen to this baby and terrified that like, you know, if he wasn't here

yesterday, like, is he going to be here tomorrow? And I had also, I mean, it's very different from, from Ophelia's experience, but I had a few miscarriages before having myself. son. And so, you know, like that, that loss definitely, like, played into those early days of motherhood where I'm like, I know loss is possible. And I don't, I've just, you know, terrified something's going to happen to him. So I feel like Ophelia, having actually experienced that kind of loss in her past, like sort of breathes life into these fears that you do feel as a new mother. And everyone's trying to tell her, you know, it's fine, it's okay. You can let go. Nothing's going to happen. But she knows that things can happen.

And I do think it's kind of fun. I mean, I think psychological suspense is such a fun genre because I think it often does take these fears that we have. And then it says like, you know, but what if what if that's right? Like, what if you're right to be scared of this thing? So I think that's something that I wanted to have come out in these experience. Yeah. That's such a, I didn't even think about until you just kind of put it together that way.

Like miscarriages are still going to make you nervous when they've been. born because even like there's sudden infant death like so your brain's already crime to be like oh they still might not make it through the first couple weeks that that would be so stressful it's a scary period of life yeah I bet um the other thing that's happening as people can probably tell from how we're talking about is we alternate kind of between the past and the present and with books like that I am always fascinated or want to know uh did you write it linearly or did you write it linearly or did you write it kind of the way that it appears in the book? So I, my writing process is a mess. So I sort of went back and forth. I did start out. One of the earliest scenes was the scene where

Ophelia is 12 and she wakes up and she's slowly realizing that her family has disappeared. So that came like very early on in the book. And that was like a good way to kind of set out also. She's like, you know, she's walking through the compound. She's describing what she's seen and what's wrong. And that sort of helps me in my own mind kind of figure out like, well, what is this? What kind of group is this? What does this look like? What are they doing? But during the writing process, I would, I would sort of be writing, I would write a lot of the present day. And then I'd have to go back and write a chunk of past tense and then kind of figure out how to weave them together afterwards. But I'm very jealous of people who can just like sit down and be like, okay,

I'm going to do this chronologically. I have to just kind of sit down and say, okay, this is the scene that I want to write today. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I was just talking to Jennifer Ocoe yesterday about she has a book, Just Amelia, coming out in June. And she was saying the same thing where she was like, I'm so envious of people who can plot it out. She's like, I should have to sit there and see what comes to me each day. And it's going to fun that way because you're like, oh, I don't know what's going to happen. We'll see. We'll see where it goes. But yeah. I feel like more people pants it than plot it, at least thriller authors is like really actually the only data set that I technically have. But I feel like the answer is more often like, no, I'm not plotting.

Yeah, that's been my experience too when I've talked to people about their process. But then every now and then you do come across someone who's just a, you know, a special case. They're like, no, I just have my, I have my whole plan. Yeah, totally. another element is Mona who shows up and so this is a woman I'm looking at the synopsis who yes we don't know who's claiming to be someone from her past basically and so she kind of develops a friendship with her but her identity is kind of ambiguous and I felt like that also just mirrored or also showed us how often Ophelia kind of had to be

questioning her reality and if people were telling the truth and all of that. So was that character kind of always an idea to kind of bring in because it also fits the theme of like how ambiguous a lot of stuff can be either in a cult or outside of it? yeah she was she was always I was always building up to the point in the story when I had like the initial idea like okay well she appears yeah and then things happen um it was during the writing process exactly what would happen with that character sort of went back and forth and changed a few times um but I knew I wanted to bring her back in I mean she is this she is someone from or she's she shows up she said she's someone from Ophelia's past um and and Ophelia and Ophelia and Leah are interchangeable for anyone who's listening. He is her nickname. But she, you know, she really, a part of her really wants answers and a part of her really doesn't.

And this woman might have them, might not, might be willing to share them, might not. And so I wanted her to be there to sort of play on all those like conflicting desires that Lee has in the story. Yeah. Boy, does she. That's all I will say. But the other thing I thought was kind of interesting too is there's like all of this like what actually happened to the cult members. So there's also some like ambiguity there throughout the story. But also it's kind of like did they ascend like they thought that they were going to. But then I don't think this is spoilery. And if you do, I can cut it out. But also Mona's appearance kind of starts this descent into extreme parano. way coupled with her postpartum depression as well. And were you playing it? I kind of loved how

those contrast each other. Were you kind of playing with that or did that just kind of happen? No, I did want to play with that. And also I like, I mean, the title is the as sense. And so I did like this idea of like, is this a dissent into madness or is it or is it an ascending? Or she is like a discovery of the truth. So yeah, so that was fun to play with all I was writing. Yeah, I really loved that. I can't say anything else about it, but I loved it. The motherhood aspect, we kind of talked about how, like, Lucy is bringing up all kinds of stuff for her. And even, like, there's so many different inciting points for her. Like, that's almost even kind of an inciting point for just like everything that happens to her as well. And so was that kind of coming from some of your,

personal experience as well. Like some of it is like she almost grounds her a little of it but then also sometimes it makes her like paranoid as well. It's kind of all over the place for her. Yeah. I mean I do think I think that I think I used this term before but I do think that parenthood is this transition point. So do you do have this like new set of priorities and you have this child who really does like grounding is the right word like it really grounds you in the world. It really brings you into the world in a way that, um, that like, I don't know. I mean, for me personally becoming a mother, like, I feel like I was just like so plavis to things beforehand. And then having a kid, I was like, oh, no, you're in it now. Like, this is a physical, real

experience that, that we're doing in this world. Um, but yeah, I think that, um, kids just heighten your everything and like joy and fear. And it's all just a lot more intense. And especially in those early months when like hormones are raging it is it is super intense so i so lucy it was sort of meant to heighten everything and then also you know heightened um heightened lee's sense of like potential loss lucy is something that she can she could lose in this book and there's a few different ways that she might lose lucy um totally so with the cult so it's called jacobs hill was there how did come up with the name for it? I forget what the Jacobs part came from exactly, except for it feels like vaguely religious.

Right. There is a, there's a place, kind of, there's a, not a call, a Quaker retreat close to where I used to live that's called Pendle Hill. And that's the place that I, like, it's, I feel like it's helpful in writing out scenes to actually, like, walk through an area that kind of looks like the scene that you're describing. And so Pendle Hill is like a retreat center that's set up with a meeting house and dorms and like different types of buildings that you might find on a compound and has like different gardens set up, that kind of thing. So I walked around there and kind of tried to get a sense of,

you know, what might this compound look like. And so that name probably played a little bit into Jacobs Hill. Yeah. It definitely does. It sounds like vaguely religious. It was like, all this stuff that I was thinking about while I was reading it. I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly. I have a goal of monetizing Book Wild, but I would love to do it without having to have ads in the podcast. And one way that I can do that is through my Patreon community. For those who don't know, Patreon is a community platform that allows creators to share what they're creating behind a paywall. And so that means exclusive content or early releases. The Book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the

episodes out a day early and you get access to our private community chat where we can talk about anything book-related or TV shows or movies. The second tier is the Book Wilde tier. And it includes everything from the first tier, but also Book Wild's Backlist Book Club. So this year I've been wanting to also still read more backlist, even though I read plenty of arcs. And Book Wilde's Backlist Book Club felt like the perfect way to do that. We meet on Sundays. We are international right now. So Sundays are the best way to do it.

And we meet on Zoom and we all pick a book and we talk about it. And then we talk about everything else we read during the month. And then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun. far and we'd love to have you join the book club so if you'd like to support the book wild podcast you can go to the patreon link in the show notes and you can sign up for whichever to your interest you and if you're looking for a free way to support the show if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to that helps so much so there's she does gain agency at different

points throughout the book um how i don't know if i can even ask but how did you approve her kind of like coming into her own and like believing herself because she did have a lot of people who weren't necessarily believing the things that she was concerned about at present. Yeah, I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think if I can answer this one without spoilers too. We can cut it too if we need to. Yeah, I think she, I mean, I do think that for Lee, she's a little bit, more than a little bit I mean, she wants the truth. She wants to know what happened in her past, but she's also afraid to find it.

And so she needed to be able to, well, maybe. Well, I don't know. To feel urgent. That's, maybe that's the answer is like, there had to be like urgent things forcing her to kind of go back and look at it. That's probably, that's probably the way to not, to not spoil anything because you don't want to know. But it is, it's a cool theme. a cool theme. And I always love, I love stories, especially with women, where they are gaining agency after not having it. So basically, if that is something you like in a book, then you will like it

in a more detailed way if you read it. So the other thing I really liked is like it almost feels like it is a psychological thriller. But it's also like really beautiful. prose. I feel like it almost could fall into that literary, thriller, literary mystery, genre classification that we have sometimes. But things still keep happening. Do you think about pacing as well when you're writing it? Basically, what I'm kind of saying is sometimes literary to me end up feeling like there's not as much plot happening. So do you kind of think about that when you're writing it or did it just kind of like this you're like this is just how I write I do think while I'm writing it and I have to go back I mean I will write a first draft or like the first you know six chapters or

something and then send it off to my agent or like friends who are looking at it and it'll be like well this is great but like where's the is this a thriller I don't know if this is a thriller right and I think for me the important thing to keep in mind is like there needs to be there needs to be a threat and it needs to be like a specific threat and like what is happening to this main character that is putting her under some not just like emotional like oh aren't it like it needs to be like someone is in danger she's about to lose something kind of threat and it needs to be clear but for me it sometimes does take a couple drafts like really good to that's the threat this is what this is the danger that exists here yeah that makes sense that's kind of I mean it's fascinating you can kind of do

it both ways where you can start with a little bit less of it and then just kind of like work it up to feeling suspenseful and threatening. Yeah. I mean, I think if you start without a threat, it takes massive revisions to add the threat. But I do think it's kind of fun. I mean, I really like the revision process. Probably more than I like,

definitely more than I like the first draft process. Yeah. And I feel like once you know who the characters are and what they're doing and sort of like what the world is that they exist in, then it's like fun to go back and write it. So adding in the threat part is fun. And that usually happens before the book is done. That's usually like I get like some pages in and then I'm like this is not.

Right. So yeah. I know. Some people, I feel like everyone does have different experiences with the, my brain just completely lost. What I was going to say. It has different experiences with revision. Some people are like, oh, the revision process.

But it was making me think I also just like edit lots of videos is basically my like job. But I have to say. it's harder to me too. It's still way harder trying to put like a bunch of footage that you got from an interview and or maybe multiple interviews and trying to just get it in something that flows. And then I'm the same thing because then once I get into the revision, which is like, okay, you kind of have this. Now you go in and make all the little cuts that like help.

Oh, yeah. Flow the right way. That part way less intimidating. So I feel like maybe that's like for people who enjoy the revision. Like it's probably the intimidation factor goes away a little. bit. I think that's right because you know you have something you have something to work with. And then I think it's also it's really nice when you like can make like a small change and then be like, oh, look at how much better than this. That does feel it feels good. But yeah, I think

intimidation is a big is a big part of it. And just that question like, is this going to turn into like a whole thing? Yeah, totally. Is there anything that kind of draws you to psychological thrillers or psychological drama kind of those genres. Yeah, I love I love books that get deep into the characters heads. And psychological suspense, psychological dramas do that. And they also, I mean, this goes against what I was saying about like starting out my books with no conflict. But they really do. I mean, they really put characters in situations where they're put to the test.

And so you can really see, you can see that stretched like that. the logical elements stretched. And I think it's, I think they're really interesting. And I just do, I like mysteries. I like puzzles. Sort of how all those pieces fit together. Yeah. So it's a fun genre. Yeah. I agree. I think that's what I enjoy about reading them. I like, I do like having like characters that feel real and also like plot that is moving relatively quickly. Yeah. So I think I love both. And then it's like for me, I also, I, I love. I love. of that typically by the end, a character has like conquered something. Like even if it's not everything, I feel like that's part of what I like about thrillers too

is that in some ways it's like, oh, you can do hard things and it can end up kind of okay sometimes. I think that's right. Yeah. It's like all these fears that you have, you can confront them and it's fine. Maybe there's some people who are dead in the meantime. But like otherwise it's okay. Yeah. Totally. Do you read a lot? I always ask if the guests have read anything recently that they loved.

Yeah. So I just finished recently, Polly Stewart's The Fellins Ball, which is really fun. It's also more on the like literary meets thriller kind of side of things, really beautifully written. It takes place in somewhere it's in the south in this like small town with this family of moonshiner's and it's really fun and I just also finished broken country which I loved I mean I feel like it is huge everyone loves that book right now. I don't think about loving it I haven't read it yet it's great it's yeah it's uh it's I think going into it I only knew that it was going to be like a mashup of like romance and some mystery. But, and I was expecting to like like it okay. I was reading it for a book club, but I thought it was great.

It was really, it was really beautiful set sort of in this farm town. There's a lot of like loss and grief in it and sort of reflections on loss and grief. And I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I need to bump that up on my list. Because everyone's talking about it. And I'm like, yeah. Sounds good. It's one of those ones I need to fit in somewhere.

Where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything? So I am most active on Instagram. So my Instagram is Alison Bacola. And my website is also alisonpacola.com. And yeah, those are the best places to find me. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I will add those links.

And otherwise, thanks for chatting with me about it. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. This is so much fun. You're welcome. Thank you.