Bookwild - Almost Surely Dead by Amina Akhtar: Jinns, Sleepwalking and True Crime Satire

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

This week, I talk with Amina Akhtar about her new thriller Almost Surely Dead!SynopsisDunia Ahmed lives an ordinary life—or she definitely used to. Now she’s the subject of a true crime podcast. She’s been missing for over a year, and no one knows if she’s dead or alive. But her story has listeners obsessed, and people everywhere are sporting merch that demands “Find Dunia!” In the days before her disappearance, Dunia is a successful pharmacist living in New York. The daughter of Pakistani immigrants, she’s coping with a broken engagement and the death of her mother. But then something happens that really shakes up her someone tries to murder her. When her would-be killer winds up dead, Dunia figures the worst is over. But then there’s another attempt on her life…and another. And police suspect someone close to her may be the culprit. Dunia struggles to make sense of what’s happening. And as childhood superstitions seep into her reality, she becomes convinced that someone—or some thing —is truly after her. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

If you have been listening to me on either of my podcast, you've probably heard me talk about Amina Oktar, who is one of my absolute favorite authors. I love how satirical she is. I love how twisty and dark and unique. Her thrillers are. And her third novel, Almost Surely Dead, just came out. And it is fantastic. And I get to talk to her about it. So this is what the book is about. Denea Ahmed lives in ordinary life, where she definitely, used to. Now she's the subject of a true crime podcast. She's been missing for over a year and no one knows if she's dead or alive. But her story has listeners obsessed and people everywhere support our sporting merch that demands fine dunya. In the days before her disappearance, Dina is a successful pharmacist living in New York. The daughter of Pakistani immigrants,

she's coping with a broken engagement and the death of her mother. But then something that happens that really shakes her up. Someone tries to murder her. When her would-be killer winds up dead, Dunya figures the worst is over. But then there's another attempt on her life and another. And police suspect someone close to her may be the culprit. Dunia struggles to make sense of what's happening. And as childhood superstitions seep into her reality, she becomes convicted that someone or something is truly after her.

I really, really enjoyed this book. There are three timelines that you're really, alternating through one when dunya's five one with dunia in present and a future timeline that is transcripts from a podcast that is looking into dunya's disappearance some of omina's really classic satirical writing comes through with this one and i just couldn't have loved it more and i'm so excited for you guys to hear us chat about it welcome to the podcast again Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Yeah.

The new book, right? And it matches your sweater. Look at that. It does. It matches all of my favorite colors. So a pink and purple cover, I'm always going to love. I love it. I love it.

It's such a new cover. If I wore anything but black, I would be so into matching my books. I just, you know. Yeah. I get it. I used to only wear black and then I incorporated pink and purple. So I get it. Since I was like 13, I went black.

And I'll do a pop-up color here and there, you know, but it's just, yeah. So too, sorry, guys. It is. But, you know, I'll just walk around carrying it and it'll be my pop-up color here. Yes. And the inside of the hardcover has such a cool, like, foil detail. Which I didn't even know about until the fabulous Megan Collins was like, oh my goodness, did you see this?

And I was like, no, I didn't know this as a thing. That's cool. Yeah. It was so cool because I saw that story too. And I, as I've talked about often, I'm an e-reader, girly. So I read the book with like a galley. And then I wasn't expecting to receive a hardcover copy, but I got the hardcover copy. And so then I was super excited to like open it up and be like, I know there's something cool on the inside here. It is. And now I'm going to check every book ever. I'm like, because. I was like, it's so awesome. Yeah, I know. It made me think that too. Like how many books have like secrets that we don't know about. Little Easter eggs. Yeah. But what we're talking about is almost surely dead, your third novel that comes out here in February. So with it being your third novel, was there anything about writing this one that felt different than your other two? I'm going to be honest with you. While I was writing this is when I had that horrible broken finger.

I had the most ridiculous injury on a pinky that for some reason, I mean, I'm just, I'm very clumsy. And so I could not type with one hand. Like I couldn't use his hand. So there was a lot. And so I blew the deadline by six months on this. God bless my editor. But the entire time I was writing, it was basically panic. I was like I'm missing my deadline they're going to cancel my book deal oh my god so I think it's hard for me to remember what the process was like because I was in just this pure like anxiety mode the whole time oh yeah um so I I almost blacked it out because it was so intense and I was just like I'm not going to make it yeah um is my internet going out

I can still see you and hear you. Okay, because I can't see you. So, but you let me know if anything goes out. Okay. Yeah, I will. Oh, okay. Cool. The joys of living on a mountain in Arizona is the Wi-Fi is gone awful.

So sometimes when it rains, like now, I barely sneak in. So anyways, I don't remember the process too well. I do remember that. You're like, I wrote it. I wrote it. So my stories. Yeah. I am a tendency to completely rewrite every version as opposed to just doing my visions, which is a really labor-intensive way to do this.

I don't know why I do it. I'm trying to break myself free of this habit, but it's just what works for me. Right. So I definitely had different versions of this and some were even crazier and some were way less. And it was just sort of like, how do we get it in the middle? You know, how do we get it? Yeah. Sort of crazy, but not the worst.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that, I mean, that makes sense. Like, I've heard, I can't remember who else I talked to. Someone else I talked to. It was like, I don't know. I just had to write the book. Like, I've completely, it might have been Ashley Winstead.

She was like, it was like a fever dream. I just kind of like wrote it while I could. And I can't really tell you anything about it. So sometimes that happens. You kind of almost go into a trance. It's like it does get it all done. And then I sleep for a few months, you know. And this is the first book I had on deadline.

And I've never written a book where there was an editor along for the process. And I was like, okay. I literally had no idea what I was doing. Yeah. How great worked out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It totally did.

So the dedication, your dedication says for my dad and his gin stories. So was that kind of, was that part of your relationship with your dad, kind of the inspiration for this book. Did you read the, so in the acknowledgments, I snuck in the story of how when I was four, and I have two older siblings, you know, we're all really close in age. And for some reason, my father thought it would be a brilliant idea to let his four-year-old watch The Exorcist. And because he loved that movie.

He thought it was made. He's on the theater. He's not people vomiting when it first came out. I mean, it was a very traumatic movie back in the day. and my older brother, being my older brother, was like, oh, Amina, you know that's a true story, right? And it was like, what? And so four-year-old me had this fear her entire life that I'd have to share room with my sister who got possessed, right? That was my big fear.

And so my dad, I rendered my dad. I'm like, Daddy, Daddy, Omar said, this was a true story. And he was like, yes, I know, honey, but I know how to do an exorcism, you'll be fine. And he was serious. And I was like, shoot. So, and I've asked him with the thought, I'm like, why did you think that was a good idea? Like, the response, why did you think that response was right?

Like, I don't understand your thought process on this. Yeah. He's always been this very pokey father in fun ways. His side of the family. So for the record, I believe in Jin. Gin are real. We have so many stories in our family about the Jin and my dad growing up with them. I've had experience with them.

It is, I don't know anybody, Pakistani, who doesn't believe in them, no matter how logical and science-y they are, it's a thing. And it's hard to explain to Americans because there's very, like, nothing that we, I think, as Americans, believe in that is real. Maybe ghosts, but that's still very 50-50 controversial.

Jin, I think people really possibly are like, no, that's real. That's real. Not touching it. Yeah. yeah what's and what's the main like which you said it's kind of hard to explain so it might not be able to be explained but what's like the main difference between like a ghost versus a gin we call ghosts uh we called ghost booth my cousin who's born on Halloween has nicknamed

booth um yeah ghosts are ghosts gin are um separate entities they have complete free will they were created if you believe the caronic um explanation of the creation they were made from fire and smoke so they're neither clay nor they angels nor they demons they are an entirely different being um yeah in the research because i wanted to you know writing this i felt like am i the right person to tell the story i'm so not religious um what am i doing but i was like you know why can't i tell the story so i'm going to do it and i do all this academic research you know since you what the scholars thought about jinn and what the you know really interesting because there were things that i didn't know like jinn predate the abrahamic religions so and there's thinking that some of the

those older gods that people had might have been jim um and there are jing around the world you know there's jewish jim there's jinn of all religions it's really like a cultural thing so it was the thing that stuck with me was um some one of the scholar said that The fay are jinn. Not all jen are fairies, but fairies are classified within the gym, with the way that they talk about jinn. And that kind of

makes you think, oh, okay, I'm starting to get it. It's this overarching thing of these non-human entities that are very culturally specific. And they can do whatever they want. They're not, unlike genies, which is where this game is, you know, getting your three wishes, which is where, you know, genies come from Jen.

gin have free will they can do what they want yeah yeah so the fire and the smoke you do kind of touch on that as well in the book and so there are some like eerie smoky scary scenes that were they were sticking in my head too with how like visual i told you not to read it up night i was like don't you did you told me not you're going to get nightmares you're going to sleep off yeah and then you're going to be like omina what did they do you. I know. You tried to warn me and I had already started it at night and my husband was gone. And then all of a sudden I was like, wow, I'm like really into the visuals of this. Like I should probably, it was like at 9.30. And I was like, I should probably stop reading this for now. And then I pulled up Instagram. You were like, by the way, don't read it at night.

Yeah. Unless you love to be scared. And sometimes you do. Like, I love horror movies. Yeah. I love it. I love being scared. Yep. Unless you love being scared and do not read it at nighttime. Um, yeah. I've had. So many male authors, like straight white male authors be like, I had nightmares. Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm just like, that's my life. Yes. Yeah. It was like in the first 20% like specifically, there are just some scenes that were so creepy that like that night when I was waking up, I was like, do I see smoke in the air right now?

Like, or is there stuff moving in the dark air right now? Is there in the room with? Yes. Yes. I'm like, are the things that haven't been with. I wanted it to be creepy. But I think like also like I, I was, you know, I'm not a subtle writer. So it's, for me, it's like, I just want to be like, okay.

And then there was this creepy thing. But to just, it was a challenge to get it to be subtly creepy, you know? So it was just like just enough that you're like, oh, this gets me nervous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever, did you ever scare yourself while you were writing some of the scenes?

No. No. No. I find it really, I don't scare myself with this stuff. I don't scare easily. I'm one of those idiot people who, if I hear noise in the middle of the night, I will get up and investigate. So we all know I'm dying first in the horror movies. But I will literally be like, like, my dad is going on vacation or to visit my sister. And he'll, for some reason, he has an alarm clock set in the middle of the night. I don't know. My dad's weird. And I woke up and I'm like, there is music in the house. why is there me like and I literally have like a stick in my hand like investigating and it's in a line song but I'm thinking uh how you just stop being that person I want someone else to go check out

the noises that I know like at the same time if you're just like fawning instead of fight or flight in your bed like that's not better either really exactly exactly like sometimes you just have to get up and double check that it's fine but yeah my dogs my dog's my dog well at least one of them he will bark at stuff in the middle of the night when does all that's what yeah Bean is doing this new thing where she after dinner she gets her little you know her greenies

toothbrush and she has to eat it in my bedroom and which is always so weird and she'll just be barking at it and she's not a barker and so she's just been barking in my room lately and we're like this is getting creepy it's so I don't know yeah yeah so sometimes when he's when Bruce is like convinced there's

someone in the hallway and I'm alone. I'm like, I'm with you though. I'm like, I need to go walk into the hallway because otherwise I'm just going to sit in bed freaking out about what's in the hallway. So like, how's that useful? I had a haunted apartment, which is where the story for Dunia came, which was, Bean was seeing something. And I don't, I, it's like her ears were pinned back. She was terrified. Yeah. And my solution was to put a blanket over her head. I don't want to deal with those right now. I don't know what you're seeing. Like that, you're fine, you're fine.

So that's how I handle things. Yes. I know it's not real. It's fine. Yeah, it's like if I can just confirm it's not real or just not there right now, feel better. Yeah, like let me deal with it in the morning with popping. Yes.

Yes. Well, the other thing we have in common, other than dogs, who are trying to alert us to danger is sleepwalking. You can never have a slumber party wear because the living gives us out of you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. When my... When my husband started when we, well, basically a couple years in our marriage, Tyler told me that he was halfway scared to fall asleep next to me sometimes because it was like falling asleep next to like a war veteran who's like waking up in the middle of like some kind of panic that he doesn't understand watching that paranormal activity one where she's basically sleepwalking and standing next to the bed i was like i do that that was the only movie that i think

that scared me in recent history because i was like holy cow i do that yes i having issues um like my sister god bless her she used to wake up every morning or every night with her four-year-old sister standing at the foot of her bed watching her. Oh my gosh. And she would get me back into bed. I would do it every night. I to this day don't know how she didn't murder me because that is just creepy kid stuff, right? Like I wouldn't. Yeah. Creepy, creepy child. Um, yeah. But she didn't. Yeah. I used to like, I used to walk to my brother's door or this is what he told me and I would knock on his bedroom door and he would like, open it and I would just stare at him.

Yeah. You'd be like, can you go back to my head clean. And then you get annoying in your sleep, you know, and it's like, and it makes no sense. People will be like, show at all. And then you go to, you say something stupid when you go to bed. And the next day, everyone's like, what are you doing? So that sleepwalking is, is where Junya came from. I've been wanting to write a sleep walking book because it is such a creepy thing to do.

You know, not most adults don't do it. Most people grow out of it. We are special. Yay. And when I was having that haunted apartment, part of what was happening is that like Dunya, every night I was sleepwalking. And I don't do it every night.

I do it once or twice a month. Sometimes I'll wake up, you know, just next to my bed. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, my FitFit just told me I was running around last night. What? Sometimes I don't even know I'm doing it. But this was every single night. And I was doing the same thing Dunya was doing, which was running into my living room or in the place.

closet because there was something there that didn't belong. And I mean, I'm like throwing shoes, trying to find it. And it's just every single night. And I was just like, and then Beanie is freaking out. So I was like, all right, that's weird. So I was joking to my friends. I'm like, guys, I have a closet monster. And, you know, back, this was back when I was working at a fashion site, whatever.

And whenever you go out with fashion people, like with publicists, they would always bring an astrologer, a terror reader. It's like, I don't know why. It's a thing. It's a thing in the fashion. Okay. So six months prior, I had gone to dinner with a bunch of people and there was this guy who does energetic sanctuary. I cannot explain that to you.

Okay. I have no idea this day what he did in my apartment. But he closed me up and he was like, you don't remember me. We had dinner with all these people like six months ago. I'm like, no, it's cool. I remember you. And he's like, listen, my spirit guys are telling me to get into your apartment. There was something in there.

I need to come over right now. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Okay, he'd come on over. And it was for free. The guy wasn't, because I'm trying to figure out what's the scam, right? Right. Totally free. He came over.

And the night before he came over, and I don't, this was in a version of the book, and I don't know if it made the final version. And I had this dream the night before he came, but I had to go into the bathroom and take a picture with the flash on in the mirror in the dark. And I would see what was haunting me behind me. I didn't do it because that's how. you die so I didn't know yeah I was just like heck I am I'm not that dumb um yeah he was like flat out

it's coming through your bathroom it's coming from somebody else's apartment and it's going through your bathroom and I was just like I got the dream so he did all this stuff but I just thought it was such a weird experience because he did all these things about just and then he found a message from my mother right my mother had passed and he he's like there's a message on your bookshelf. And you did just see how I organize these, these lovely bookshelves of mine. I don't.

You see what a mess it is? I'm a very chaos organizing person, right? Yeah. So it's not like they're in a pretty order or alphabetical. So if you glance at my bookshelves, you're not going to find this book that he's talking about. And so he would use chenicology and like use your arms and lift your arms and ask you questions and the way your arm moves would tell the truth.

And you're like incapable of lying that way. It's the weirdest thing. ever heard of. So he did this and he finds his book. It's like a fairy in the back. It's an old book from Camus from college years and I haven't read in like 20 plus years. And you know, using my arm, is it this page before this page or after this page? Whatever. So he finds it and you looks at me and he's like, I'm sorry, but I need you to read this line because this is what your mom wants you to know. So I pick up this book and the line said yes, it would be a pleasure to see my mother again. Oh my gosh. How? Like I couldn't.

not figure out how anyone can do that without it being actually a psychic being. Like, it just didn't make sense to me. So after he was done, it just felt better. The air, the vibes were better. Being seemed a little bit more chilled. Oh, wow. I did move out of that apartment. Yeah. I don't blame you. I don't want to stay here. Because he was like, it's not a ghost. It's a demon coming through and it's attached. And I was like, oh, I know who's attached to there. that's surly girl on the 19th floor i know exactly who it's attached to that um so yeah that was the that was where junior came from so i can always say if it ever gets made into a movie based on a true story you can now say it yeah that was gonna be yeah that was

where i was headed like was most of your research for the sleepwalking just personal experience yeah yeah because i do so much weird stuff like i'll change my clothes i can't furniture or I'll turn on wash machines and don't leave the house. That's my saving grace. I've never left. Yeah. I do, especially in my house because,

you know, I'm literally surrounded by wild animals outside. So I don't want to be out there at night. It's really creepy. It's really creepy. Yeah. But I usually do things like, I'll just wake up in the hallway or,

you know, I bolt out of bed. I leave being to whatever dream monster I have and I both I'm good. Sorry, B. And I'll wake up me like, where am I? Oh, okay. That was a dream. And I don't know if you have this. Remember those overhead projectors in school where they have those transparent? It's almost like that transparency is your dream happening over reality. And so I'll still see part of the dream happening. And I'll just be sitting there being like, okay, you're not awake. Yeah. This is weird. Yeah. Yeah. That's what when I was like 10 or 11 or we'd move. So I was probably like 11. That was exactly. what it was like because I was completely convinced there were these huge like probably like three foot wide spiders that were like strong enough to open the windows in my bedroom. And so I was throwing shoes at the window and my parents are like, what is happening? Like I think she's dreaming.

And I just like kept throwing shoes at the window. So like my eyes were open. I technically knew what my room worked like, but I was just so sure that there are these like creatures trying to come into my bedroom. That's a good, I like that description. Yeah. One night I was visiting home from college and I was sharing the, I was in the room next door to my sister. And yeah, she heard me screaming bloody murder. And so she was like, my door was locked and she was like, let me in. And I was like, no, I can't, they won't let me. And so she thought there were people in my room. So she said, I went to the door open. And as she walks in, and so I'm dreaming of millions of

cockroaches. Like, just crawling everywhere, bugs, bugs, bugs, right? It's always bugs. And as she walks in my room, I see her. I see her as she is. But the second she walked into my room, she's covering bugs. And I'm just staring at her like, oh, because your dreams are just so happening as you're awake. And it is just a very, and it's not sleep paralysis. You're able to move. You're able to sleep. It's just the most bizarre experience. So if you ever date a sleep walker, be kind. Just be ready. We're trying. Yeah. Yeah, mine's not as intense. It was definitely

like way more intense when I was a kid. I remember in my dorm, when I lived in a dorm, I did end up like out of my dorm in the hallway at one point and I was like I think I just woke up here. I'm going to go back in. But now mine normally is that I like jump out of bed and I am to your point

about like they're in here. I'm convinced that there were like two people that came into the room and I'm like, we've got to get him out. We've got to get him out. And Tyler like no one's here no one's here and you're like that's not going to help like you just have to wait no right now i believe there are people here yeah and you're you're being on it tyler what are you doing yeah yes you have to just kind of go with it and that it's always and like poor being she's just such a patient dog sometimes i'll like lift her up and she'll be like in my sleep and i'll wake up

holding her and she's just like yeah what are you doing man let me down yeah i know i know i'm totally with you the worst because sometimes sometimes lately mainly because i use more CBD before bed i think is what started to make it a lot better like a lot better because you dream less with with cannabis stuff or you remember your dreams less yeah yeah i think it helps that part of my brain not get it as active so now sometimes i just talk like i'll have like sit up in bed and i start talking and then sometimes i wake up just enough in the middle of it that i'm like and then you like like feel kind of embarrassed because you realize like oh i was just talking and it wasn't making sense oh yeah it's like total gibberish i mean you know are just like see that's of your dream and and

you probably won't remember and yeah yeah so you know i just i just like sleepwalking to me it's just it's just another quirketing me and you and it's a part of life but i think that tell me people are fascinated by it because we're really like not in control of what we're doing um right you know No, like I don't take Ambien or anything because God only knows what I would do if I had to take those things. They trigger sleep blocking. Yeah. That would be bad. Yeah.

That would be rough. Yeah. No. No, we don't. We have enough sleep excitement in our life. We're good. We're good. Yeah.

So in the book, there's kind of two timelines. So we have, you know, yeah. Oh, you're right. There are three. correct um so we have dunia as things are happening to her as like someone i'm trying to say the parts without just in the synopsis without spoiling anything but someone does try to kill her and doesn't succeed and then she has another attempt on her life so that's like what's happening with her then and then in one of the future timelines it's a transcript of a true crime

podcast and I know on our last podcast we I asked you about your satirical writing and you're like I don't even think I like write satire I just kind of like write and then I do and the podcast transcripts were so funny it was I needed I felt like it was such a heavy book that I needed a sense that I need something for people to have a moment of levity oh yeah because I feel like if you're reading a heavy book and you're just like, ah, it's a slum. So I wanted to break up some of the heavier stuff in the book. And then also it was like, well, let me use this, these podcast chapters to further the plot so that we start to learn, okay, so we know she's disappeared, but we don't know that in her timeline yet. And the podcast, while being absolutely ridiculous,

would let us know who was arrested or who's being, you know, looked at for the, so who they think did it because all we know is this poor girl has disappeared but then there is a third timeline that happens when dunya's five because it was a very pivotal year um because throughout her her main timeline she you know she references her family and she's very estranged from her mother and her sister her father passed away when she was five when in front of her she was right there and from Dunia's perspective, and I'm going to be careful with spoilers, it was her fault. She felt her family blamed her and then distanced themselves from her when she was five. And so she felt like she was kicked out of the family basically without being kicked out and not part of the community either.

So she's very estranged from her culture, very set apart. But as we're reading the five-year-old chapters, you kind of see things might not be the, she might be most not a reliable narrator because she's saying things very narrowly and only, you know, with her eyes. She's a child. But you, right, but you start to see how her family is reacting to things. And in the podcast, you see it because her sister comes on and her sister will say things that will in the gate what, what Gune is thinking.

So it's really sort of like there, you know, there are three times. and story, there's her story, her story, a beautiful story than the truth. So you start to see the different sides of the story and be like, oh, okay, something else is going on here. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I thought it was interesting, so two things, with the, um, her youngest timeline when she's really young. There's also, I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly. She's kind of labeled the Pagall. Is that how you pronounce it? Bogle. Bogle. Okay. Bogle. I didn't quite get it. And it's funny because in our families, or at least my family, you know, I don't speak for everyone. There's things you don't talk about.

You know, you don't talk about that one crazy aunt who got married off of the team. You know, we don't, we don't discuss these things. So to have a fable of an aunt, it's like, oh, it's shameful. We don't want to talk about that. I don't like that way. Had that changed in 20% probably, but, you know, this was me growing up in my spirits with it. So for her as a child to understand that foggle is bad, foggle means crazy, they think I'm a boggle, this is bad. Yeah.

So that was her main thing, but she didn't want to be her aunt. She didn't want to be crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And then it mentions kind of later on in the book that she didn't feel connected or she felt shunned from her culture. And so she kind of didn't like hold on to the parts of her culture either, kind of all because like they didn't care about the mental health. Yeah, nobody wanted her. Yeah.

You kind of go, as you're reading, you know, for me, it was like, this is sort of like my ode to my parents because I think when you have your, your kids, immigrant kids, you don't realize that your parents are doing the best they can, right? And they think for all parents, right? If you're lucky enough to have good parents, not everyone's not left. Yes. They're doing the best I can. They're human beings.

Let's give them some things, you know. And so she starts it being like, you know her horrible mother and it's not and yes her mother has died recently so she's dealing with this grief so she's already in a weird headspace because she's never reconciled really with her mom and and she's broken up with an ex you know with her former fiance so she has all these loose ends and she's kind of she's breathing but she doesn't understand how to deal with all the feelings she's feeling so i just really wanted to kind of have it be this moment of as you're reading it. I have these realizations as when I, you know, became an adult where, you know, if I was

always so mad at how stripped my parents were and this and that. And then I was like, oh, yeah, I know, they were right about these things. All right. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of a horrifying realization that, oh, no, my parents are totally right. Yeah. Um, so I kind of walked her as she's going without spoiling things. Let's see if she can get to that point, you know? And doesn't necessarily mean she does, but let's, let's try to get her. Yeah, yeah, you did. I thought it was, again, not trying to talk spoilers, but it was really cool the way. Those arcs came to, the character arcs kind of came together differently than you see them at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, because there were some quotes about her. There are just some things, so many things I highlighted about the relationship with her mom as an adult.

Or I was like, that was powerful. I get that. I see you. So it's cool the way it was able to end. it's definitely one of those like oh i kind of wish my mom were here now like i'd be like look it's like whatever i would read the namesake um i would end up or watch the movie i would end up calling my mom be like i'm so sorry oh yeah sort of like my version of it you know or you could be like oh moms yeah yeah yeah it is it is really cool the way it all comes together at the end for sure i loved it i'm not going to talk about it because i will give spoilers way and or maybe crying you never know yeah but one of the things with the podcast timeline that was just like to your point about it is a really heavy book some of the levity with the podcast transcripts

is a little bit is kind of how like unhinged it is as a concept in the way that some people approach true crime and like the lack of respect yeah i think there there are true crime podcasts that are legitimately trying to help the people involved, right? Yes. She's that Robbie Ochojury, Catherine Townsend, you know, she's licensed private eye, actually solving cases. Yep. But then you also have other, and I don't listen to a bunch of true crime.

I know. You're all supposed to be obsessed. I'm not, because it's all in my head out anyway. I'm not either. Unless they're going to give me ideas for how to get rid of a body in the book. Right. But I feel like there's a lot of, are podcasts out there that are not uh their interest is not in the story necessarily it's even

getting a tv deal right getting a deal on netflix or you know and you start to wonder who owns the story now is it the victims is it the people you know the people involved or is it the people telling the story that now own it so i think there's a lot of um weird areas that true crime podcasts touch on that make people kind of wary of them um You know, it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah, there was a point in this podcast where they're literally like interviewing someone, someone who's a friend of Genia.

And they're saying something. The guest is saying something. And they're like, oh, my gosh, no, no, no, no. Spoilers. We're not going to our spoilers. And she's like, oh, yeah, they were talking about me. Spoilers. Like, this is my friend's life.

So then they wrap the section up. Yeah, right? They like wrap the section up and they're like, and now we have this offer for you for PI services and use the code Dunia 15. And I was like I felt like it was such a cool example of like they're commoditizing someone's who's a missing person. Like yeah. It was wild. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be podcaster's respect, but you know, let's remember who's why you're telling these stories. You know, Yeah. The goal isn't for you. The goal is to solve it and to help people. Yeah. Yeah. And that should be the goal for sure.

Not just to like sensationalize all of it. But it makes something to be. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, so I might be out of questions. I might have another question. Let me see. We can go back to the spiders and sleepwalking.

I always imagine a giant torrents level above my head. But I've made friends with that tarantula because, you know, I'm like the Dementia Disney princess out here. So since I've made friends with them in that they kind of walk along with me, my walking beanie, it's really weird. I don't have to like that much anymore. Oh. I realized that they, tarantulas kill scorpions. So it's sort of like the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. tarantulas. Just don't come into my nest. My dad is my dad. And it's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. I had one come into the house and I was just trying to get rid of it. Like I don't want to kill it. I don't want to be like, how do I, how do I move you outside? Your size of me. And I got it outside by kind of irritating it with a broom and sort of chasing it up. And I got it outside. And the poor thing, the next morning I go outside and on the patio, I don't know what was waiting for it. I just, it just its legs. Nothing else was there. Just its legs.

I do not know what death I sent that poor spider to, but to this day, I feel such guilt. Because I didn't know there was something out there ready to eat it. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, I'm sorry. Oh, poor spider. Oh, no. I was just trying to live his life.

Well, at least you kind of. Yeah, and I just wanted it to be out. Because also, like, our house is so sprayed for scorpions and other things, it's going to die. It's going to die. So I'm just like, oh, let me get you out. Let's save you. Yeah. yeah sorry yeah well I I also loved the ending I thought the ending was really cool I always talk

about endings where I love when you get to them and you feel like they were inevitable like given all of the information you had leading up to that final 20 percent I feel like I struggled with it because it was like well where did we go from here do we get her an exercise and then it's like that's boring. We've all seen the movies. We don't need a vomit scene. We don't, you know, right. Let me, let me figure out how I can do it. And I'll be honest. I, I'm a little amazed at the response I've gotten from the book because I thought, oh, this is the weirdest book. No one's going to read it. It's crazy. When they called me up and were like, like, Mindy wants this book. I was like, are you joking? Like, this is a weird book. You know, this is like,

And I write weird books. The best book is fucking ratings, you know? Like I thought this is a weird book. People have loved it. And I'm amazed because this is such a personal story with so much from my childhood in it and so much my parents in it that it was like, oh, I don't know. So I am sort of coming to terms of the fact that people are reading this. Yes, that part. Wild.

It is wild, man. I thought it was really fitting. So did you, was that, did you have any other ideas for the ending? Or was that pretty much kind of what you came to? I think, I'm not going to say it because I don't want to spoil it. I do know that at one point my editor was like, you have to make things that dire. Give people hope, Bommina. And I was like, yeah, that is a fair point.

Yes. Okay, let me, let me think about what I can do with that, you know? yeah like please don't make it so depressing I was like that's it I'm not wrong yeah I loved it

I thought it was like I said it felt inevitable like given everything else yeah and you never know maybe there'll be a sequel who knows you know I always wondered about that because there definitely could be

I never I like leasing surfing I never say no to stuff like that but we'll we'll see what the powers that be would want you know beyond my control right right and are you already working on another one i am i have a good and i'm very i'm very slow at it during my baths because i i i have long covid so i can write like 500 words and then i'll take like a five hour it's like this nice full comb my pass out like it's not even like oh take a nap and half an hour

it's like nap now and you face plan yeah um but it is that it's this is two different timelines on this one one is the 90s where the main character was a goth teen um possibly pulling from my goth years uh where they still probably in and as a main character she's in mid 40s so we already have a protagonist that's older than usual in these books and she um is going home to visit her family in the small town of texas or like a suburb suburb of texas uh for weddings and the grooms the eligible male and keep being murdered. And you realize, and then in the 90s chapters is, you know, back in 1994, the same thing happened to some women, but the press chopped it up to honor killing because

it was the 90s and that was the key, that was the key phrase. Well, anything that they used for that. It was, oh, on the films, right? So it goes into that, but the cases were never solved. So she has to solve this case and figure out who's killing the men. and it's going to be interesting. It's definitely going to make fun of wedding culture because my people are really obsessed with weddings,

really, really, really obsessed with weddings. There's a little bit of making fun of it and almost surely dead. I was texting you. I was like, I'm 40s. I'm never getting married. Here you go.

Have a ball. Yeah. So the big character is a lot like, she's not married, but everyone's always like, you don't want to end up like that. that one's unmarried, you know, so she's not, so the younger girls don't really hang out with her, but she's trying to find out what's happening, you know, be like, oh, okay. So that's, it's going to be, I believe, less super naturally.

Yeah. Because I also promised my agent I would write an actual just straightforward thriller for once. Yeah. But I have something else in mind for the book after that will be wild, but I don't want to talk about it because it's, I don't know how. I don't know how right now I'm only where I'm like I don't know how to execute it. So I'm just no wait to see if it comes to me. Right. Yeah.

No, that totally makes sense. I'm excited for the other one for sure. I have been asking everyone what they've been reading recently that they loved. So I don't know if you've had time. I'm a little slow because it's taking me. It takes me about a month to read a book right now, which is so frustrating. I did just read you. juice juice and that was really good.

It's like Aaron Meyer and I think she's under pen name E.K. Satu. I don't know how to say it. I apologize. And it's a very me book. You know, it was it basically set in the beauty world and using skin care and blood and I'm not giving things away. But it was really dark. It was really funny. I think the way she, the way she, the way she describes things and people, I found so hilarious and witty and just such a fun read to do. Yeah. And of course, missing white girl coming out by by Kelly Garrett is like, yes, that needs to get the top of everybody's list. I read it. That's like, because I just got,

I just got access to it on net galley. So that's going to be coming up on my list here soon. That one, I could not guess the ending at all. I didn't guess who done it or what. I, I was just like, hey, all right. That makes me more. Yeah. I was just like, I shut the book and I was like, oh, wow. Okay. That is amazing.

So that, honestly, those two work can get them, get them, pre-order them. I believe Kelly says it April, I want to say. I think so. I feel like April. Youth is June. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

And the youth juice says it's compared to American Psycho meets Devil Wears Prada, which sounds wild. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me, it reminds me in my first book, The Passion Victim, but like, I love the way she writes. Like, it was just so captivating and different from what I do. So ours was like, oh, yes. Right? Yes.

Here, I'm gonna. Yeah, those are, I'm excited to go for those. I'm very excited for those. There's a bunch coming out this year. It's a good reading year, guys. It really was. like there are so many awesome books coming out. I can't even keep track.

Like my, I have a lot of books of like, I'm going to read, I'm going to read, I'm going to read. I'm going to read. So I'm being ambitious and then not doing it. But there are like honestly,

save your money. You don't buy anything else. It's my books this year. I know. I totally agree with that. So everyone should be doing 2020. Okay, fine. Buy beauty products too,

but buy books. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, we got to have some. We're human. Books and beauty products, the bees.

We can spend money on the bees. Yes. Do the beat. Yes. Well, where can people follow you so I can keep up to date with all of this? You know, social media has gone crazy. So I'm not really on Twitter anymore because of obvious reasons. I'll do updates on that, but whatever.

Instagram is definitely the best way to follow me. I am on threads and blue sky. But again, it's like, who knows what, what, going to happen with social media. I kind of feel like we're going to hit a point where we're all going to pull back from it. Yeah. Because there isn't one defining place to talk about things anymore. So maybe social will be less of a thing. But on definitely Instagram, you can see my books, you can see Beanie, my special dog. Yeah. Yes. And all the fun wild animals that love to stalk me in my art. Yes.

Javelinas. My havelinas. My havelinas. Yeah. Honestly, I have, so I, you know, I put bird seat out because the birds fly in for a window for a lot and die. So I felt really guilty. Like, let me put bird seed up.

And I didn't want to feed her because we have so many small critters. And I just, I didn't want to have to deal with things getting stuck in there. And what if it's a pink? I didn't want to do with it. So I just put it on these trays. kind of on the wall so that the havelinas wouldn't get to it the havelinas came enough to the tray of

so then I put I waded them down with the rocks and bricks they broke those literally broke the trays and half I have tried to chase them all and they I gave up I'm done fine you want your bird to have the birds leave me along you know but now they come

up to me and I'm like don't come up to me we're not we don't have this relationship like I'm inside I don't want the haplina this close to my dog, you know. But they were very polite yesterday as I was walking my dog because I hadn't put birthday out. They were basically like, ma'am, there's no birthday. Yeah.

Please fix this. They like it. They do and they have babies right now. So the mom. I saw the little baby one. There's a couple. She's so cute. They are adorable.

They are very cute. I'm just kind of like I wish they wouldn't grow up to be murder pigs, but they're so cute. I know. They are. I was having the same reaction looking at them. Havelinas are not friendly. Yeah. So that's why I was really shocked yesterday that they were being very funny. And like I'm just like, ah, and then I'm trying like, I'm arguing with havelinas in the road. This is all right. Let's just go home and I'll put some words it out, you know, like, get it together. Right. Well, hopefully, hopefully they stay friendly with you. I know. And I want to see my baby. I love them. Yeah.

friendly use with a glass window in front of it between us like yes yeah yeah hopefully we can keep that going um and then i will put all the links you just talked about yeah do you need no cover or anything are you good um i'm good for right now but yeah and so everyone can find everything there and February 1st yes every first again do not read this at nighttime unless you're like me really enjoy being scared, in which case, it's a wild. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still enjoyed it even though I read it at night. I was mostly reading it at nighttime, so there's that. I hope it didn't. I hope it didn't make you sleepwalk, then then you're fine. No, it really didn't. I don't think so. I didn't, I didn't seem like I was. They're like, but thank you for talking about it with me, and I'm excited to have you on

for your next one. Yeah, you're my favorite. I love it. I love the podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Between the Lines. And if you did, the biggest thing you can do to support the podcast is to go rate and review it on whatever platform you listen on. You can also follow me on Instagram at The Girl with the Book on the couch.

And if you still need more thrillers in your life, check out Killing the Tea, my other podcast where I talk to my friend Gare about literally everything we read.