Bookwild - Amina Akhtar: Kismet

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

On this episode, I talk to Amina Akhtar about her darkly funny, bloody thriller Kismet.You can also watch the episode on YouTubeAuthor LinksInstagramGoodreadsCheck out the book hereKismet SynopsisLifelong New Yorker Ronnie Khan never thought she’d leave Queens. She’s not an “aim high, dream big” person—until she meets socialite wellness guru Marley Dewhurst.Marley isn’t just a visionary; she’s a revelation. Seduced by the fever dream of finding her best self, Ronnie makes for the desert mountains of Sedona, Arizona.Healing yoga, transcendent hikes, epic juice cleanses…Ronnie consumes her new bougie existence like a fine wine. But is it, really? Or is this whole self-care business a little sour?When the glam gurus around town start turning up gruesomely murdered, Ronnie has her answer: all is not well in wellness town. As Marley’s blind ambition veers into madness, Ronnie fears for her life. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. Welcome back to another episode of Between the Lines. I'm here today with Amina Oktar to talk about her amazing book Kismet. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I love, love, love talking to people who read my book because it's crazy. Yeah. I spent two years working about this book in my bedroom with my dog and now people are reading it. Yes. That's crazy. It has to be like a different kind of like mind blowing. It is. Yeah, launching a book is really a strange

experience because all of a sudden is the book that very few people know about or have read are giving you their opinions on it and you're like okay thank you cool I don't know what to say I'm gonna go hide yeah yeah well hopefully you're getting mostly good reviews because it's what it deserves but I know you get you get everything you know everybody's different and everyone has different likes yeah so when did you know that you wanted to be an author I oh since I was a kid I wanted to write. I would write these ridiculous little stories and poems and what have you. But, you know, I come from an immigrant family and it was always really stressed to me that, okay, if you're not going to go to medical school and you're not going to go to law school, whatever you choose to do, you have to make a living. So I was like, all right, that's that's what I'm doing. So it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to get my MFA and write a novel that was not an option for me. So I went into journalism. And I mean like high school newspaper, straight to NYU, full on. focused, focused journalism. And right out of university, I got a job at Vogue, which was a surprise, because I'm not a

Vogue girl. I think this was like 1999 and I was in combat boots and I had spiked hair. Like, guys, I was so not a Vogue person, right? And I've got big boobs and I'm short and I'm brown. Like the opposite of what a Vogue person is, right? So I call Vogue and Kahnianas my finishing school because I learned how to wear heels. I learned how to do makeup. I learned how to do hair.

You know, all these things I should have known already. I did not. And then, you know, once you are in an area of journalism, you know, a genre, let's say, you kind of get pigeonholed, right? So I basically stayed in fashion. And I love fashion, but I was never like a diehard person for it. You know, there are people who study fashion and historians who are brilliant and I was just like oh look they're giving me a job this is awesome

right yeah I can pay my rent um yes and then you know I was really on the digital side I helped launch the cut blog I was at hell.com I've worked at style.com at rest and teeth basically any fashion website I probably had my fingers in it you know there was brand work all this stuff but then in like 2013 as we've seen like a lot of publications started to shudder and not just shutter but slimed down. And I got laid off from Elle and, which was a blessing at the time because my mom had passed and I was just not a functioning human. I just was like, what do I do with my life?

Right. But people, oh, shoot, let me turn my, let me turn my email off. There you go. No loud times in my ear. Okay. And at the time, it was really weird because people were writing blog posts about my layoff. And I was like, how does anyone know who I am? Like, I just felt really exposed.

I had all this anger and grief because my mom had died and, like, I needed to do something with it. Yeah. So I wrote my first book in which I murder everybody in the fashion industry. Yes. Not very subtle. Not subtle at all. I'm not a subtle person. No.

And it was really cathartic. It was just this most amazing experience of getting all these emotions out of me. And once I'd written it, I felt like a new person again. I felt like I could go out into the world again and not be a complete mess. Like, I was a hot mess at the time, you know. And then that book got rejected by every publisher for about two, two and a half years. Oh, my gosh. Because it's, oh, it's basically Devil Wars Prada means American Psycho, right?

So the main character is not a spoiler from the get-go you get. She's a crazy serial killer. Right. but she does in high yields. Yes. As one does. So it's really just tongue and cheek. I took a lot of what was my experience in fashion and put it into this book.

Yeah. So then I was like, well, I got to, I kind of, you know, messed around in New York for a couple more years. And then I was like, you know, my dad's by himself in Arizona. I can't find a stable job. Let's just kill two birds of one stone here and go out to him and see what happens, you know. Go for six months. Yeah. And it's now been six years.

It's the best thing ever. Like, I, if you had told me, like, living with my 88-year-old dad was going to be, like, the highlight of my life, I don't think I would have pleased you. But here I am. And, you know, we live on a mountain outside Sedona. It's beautiful. I don't see people very often, you know. I see wild animals everywhere. And it's beautiful.

And I thought, I really need to set a murder out here. I was like being thought. Yeah. Let's kill people. of that beautiful setting. Yes. I think authors and readers alike would love the idea of seeing wild animals

and not many people. Listen, I was just back in New York for my launch and I'm still in recovery. Like, it was overwhelming for me. Yeah. And I thought I was going to be a diehard New Yorker. And I was just like, I need to hide in my hotel.

I can't be near people. This is a lot. So I'm really glad that I can do it in small bursts and then come back and hide. Yeah. That's awesome. So you come from kind of a journalism background. What is your, did that transcend into your writing of novels or what's your writing process with your books?

The first one, yes, because I was writing mostly digital stuff, right? Blog posts and what have you. So you're writing short bursts with lots of personality. So that's kind of how, and I'd never written a book. Yeah. I don't, I didn't know what to do. So I literally would just sit down and write 300 words. And then I would take those three hundred words the next day and add to it and just keep adding and adding until I would get to a thousand or 2000.

And it would start to add up. That was the process in the beginning. Now I'm a little more streamlined. I'm not the best, like, outliner, you know, I always know what the beginning is and I always know what the end is. It's that middle part, you know. I just kind of let go wild. Like I just let the crazy fly. and if you've read my book it's a little out there um yeah and i kind of am open to letting the

characters dictate what they what their lives are going to be in these stories okay so that's sort of where i am now which is a good place um you know my process is literally sitting at my computer with my doggy who's next to me yeah and i have my coffee and i just write you know i write for a couple hours and sometimes it's 500 words and sometimes it's 5 000 It's whatever. Whatever I can do is, you know, is great. And then I get very stoned afterwards because my brain just is fried. And I lie down and I hang out with the dogs.

Yes. And I usually, at that's the kind of when like I always call the back brain, you know, it's sort of like when you're about to fall asleep and you get that brilliant idea and you don't write it down. Yes. I write it down. I always write those down. And those are the same things that happen when I get the stern is I'll get a plot point. I'll figure it out.

Yeah. Or I'll get a line in my head. of dialogue and I'm like oh I need them to say it and I literally put it in my notes app which is filled with great and it's also filled with like book ideas nobody ever steal my phone please and like letting your brain yeah right if I lose that I'm in trouble it's like letting your conscious brain shut off so that you're not overthinking and then the idea will come to you and like the solution comes to me and so that's sort of how it works I've learned My very lazy stoner girl process.

I love that. I really, really love that a lot. I mean, I know what you're talking about because it's kind of like sometimes they tell you when you're working on a problem and you just can't solve it to like even like go for a walk, do something else. And then it just do something else. Go for a walk, clean the house, do anything. Yes. And it's getting out of your head and basically getting out of your own way. Yeah. So this has been a learning curve for me to do.

get out of my own way and let the story unfold. That's cool. And smoking definitely helps you get out of your, like, front brain, get into your back brain. So I have to agree with you there. Yeah. Well, I have, I have, I found that, you know, thankfully, I live in a legal state. And so it really helped me take fewer painkillers because I would like to save my liver for later. Um, so it's definitely very beneficial. And after staring at a computer for a couple hours in writing, I usually have a headache kicking. So it's like, all right, well, what are you going to do? Yes. Yes, I'm with you on that. So you said you kind of just let the characters kind of figure it out as you're writing it. Do you do any planning on the characters beforehand, or do you also just kind of know who they are?

I do. It's more like I figure out their personalities and like the things they would like. You know, like with Ronnie, my sad Ronnie, I love her. In my head, I literally would call her Saterani. Yeah. Because she's a dormant at the beginning. And, you know, I think one of the things that was a challenge for me was, how do I write somebody who would glom onto a guru who would want somebody to come save that? Yeah.

And I had to take everything away from her. Because for me, I definitely have had those moments where everything was taken away for me, you know, just life stuff, right? And had a morally person come into my life, maybe I would have been like. like, hey, you know, I feel like we've all had those low moments. Yes. So I had to make her life awful. Sorry, Ronnie.

Yeah. And she, you know, her parents are dead. She lives with her aunt. And I know I'm going to get yelled at by my aunts for this for her aunt. But I really wanted to do a little commentary on auntie culture that we have in, you know, in, you know, the aunties are all powerful, you know. I kind of feel like they're like the furies, you know. And whatever they tell your parents.

is what you're going to get yelled at for. So I wanted her aunt to just be this horrible person, you know, just to like the end degree, really this, you know, comical. And then Marley, I wanted her homearty. She's, so I met a lot of wellness people, not just here, but, you know, in New York. I feel like this book could be set in New York and L.A. and Toulouse in Bali. I just happened to set it here.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. And she, so Marley's just like, there was a shift in the fashion industry in the last like five to eight years where a lot of the higher ups and the socialites shifted to wellness and you could see the shift happening because wellness is a billion dollar multiple billion dollar industry right so it was like let's get in on that that's what she can happen now and so that was marley she's an opportunist she's not there to help anybody or to heal she's there for her personal game um

And I tried to make her as ridiculous as possible. There was a draft where I had her mother in it more. Her mother's name is Joan. And she keeps cloning her dogs and calling them Marley. I don't know why I wanted that in there, but it killed me. It was just like that gives you an idea of why Marley wants to belong, you know, and the acclaim that would come with being a guru. Yeah.

Yes, for sure. So this one's definitely satirical fiction. and your first one was as well. So what is your favorite part about writing this? It's your real. I have never sat down and said I'm going to write satire. That has never crossed my mind. Like I...

The first book that everyone was like, oh wow, it's such satire. And I'm like, guys, I literally pulled directly from my own experiences. Yes, there were, like the things people would say, they really said it. Shoes were thrown at my head. Like, the only part that was really fiction was murders. I was not I never I'm like I just weren't trying to write things that I find funny because listen you're writing a book you're going to be reading that draft for two years at least at least years so you have to make sure you're enjoying it right so if it makes me laugh I put it in and that's like it sounds really dumb of me but if you would sound oh she's going to be a great satire no no no no like I even wasn't trying to be a right satire I just like writing ridiculous people. You know, I like characters who are just, you want to hate them. Yeah. It's more interesting to write than like, you know, a happy, sweet, you know, everything's

going great. Well, no, I want to write about the awful ones where things are not going great. And they're ruining your life. I love those characters. So I, I don't have a satire process. It's more like, did I find this funny? Cool. Let's put it in, you know, and I'm kind of winging it from there. That's amazing. answer is basically like I'm just naturally like that I every time somebody like I was having breakfast with a fashion friend in New York you know just like reunited and we were talking about the fact that fashion victim was not a satire she's like no that all that happened I was there I was like I know so it was just kind of funny yeah that's I mean that's pretty cool um so how would you describe

kismit in a couple sentences for people who haven't read it I'm so bad at the elevator pitch It's a book about finding where you belong and who you are. And I'm like, what can I give away? Nothing. I know. It's about Ronnie trying to figure out her people and sometimes her people aren't human, sometimes they're animals. Yes. And, you know, it's life a journey, I guess.

Yes. To me, the book is less about, you know, poking fun at wellness. wellness and more about this this woman who feels like a fish out of water because I think I've always felt that way and it's the same most in fashion victim the main character feels like she doesn't block and that's sort of like a running thread in my work because I feel like when you have an immigrant family um and especially for south asians I feel like we're between two worlds right we're two american to hang out with our relatives and people from south asia and we're we're not American enough for Americans. So where do you belong? Right? So this is the question I feel like

I felt and I mean look working in fashion and not fitting the physical or financial mold definitely also made me feel like an outsider. So I definitely wanted to include that into everything. This has gone more than a couple lines. I'm sorry. I'm really got it. Okay. You're fine. My next question is going to be what prompted you to write it. So you were kind of starting to answer that anyway. Oh yeah. So I was, so I sat in the crazy price in Arizona, you know, hanging with my dad. And I, you know, there were no jobs for me here. It's not like there's a fashion industry outside of New York, really, in the U.S. And it was like, I got to, I don't know what else to do with myself. I literally was like, dad, I'm going to have to, I'm going to regret to write another book. Like my first one

I finally gotten published. I was like, but I don't, I don't know what's going to happen. Like, I don't know if I need to go get a job at Walmart because that's like the only jobs out here, marty nursing you know and i was like i okay let's figure this out right so i sat down and i wrote this book and it took me two years it was like i did five different complete drafts that i then threw away because i did not like it so never be scared to start over people start over if it doesn't work to start over um i'm okay with that like i i don't had i been better at outlining i probably wouldn't have had to start over so many times so that's the learning thing turning yeah yeah but but But I feel like some people feel like in their writing like, oh, I've spent so much time on it.

Who cares? Some cost fallacy, right? Just because he's throwing time on it doesn't mean you don't have to start over. So that's where this book came from. I was trying to make Ronnie just an empowered woman. And that took a lot. It did. It really did.

It started as a dormant to moving to this point where she is her own person. and she has her own life now. And she's in control and it's great. So that, you know, for her and for me, it was a journey. Yeah.

It's a fantastic journey. So we will talk about spoilers now. So I always tell people to, if you haven't read it, pause and go read it and then come back. But if they're listening because, on your ears, everybody.

Yeah. Yes. But. Yeah. Yeah. they've already read it. I can obviously just keep listening. So early on the book describes, I'm going to call her Sad Ronnie now too. It describes Sad Ronnie. It says she was saying yes to life, taking leaps of faith and trying to be happy. She hated it. And I felt like that sentence like

set and solidified the tone of the whole book. So did you go into it knowing that you wanted to point out some of the absurdities of like capitalized wellness culture? Or did you have a plot? And we kind of put that in. Oh, it was phone. It was sort of phone. It was like wellness, the way we see it now. Wellness is an empire of money, right? It's about, let's buy this crystal and you'll behold.

Use this candle. Where are these captains. It's buy, buy, buy. Is that wellness? Look, if it makes you happy, great. Do it. Okay. True.

But let's be real, you can't buy your way into wellness. wellness is about healing your traumas. It's about physically and mentally and emotionally healing yourself. And I personally don't think, you know, a shiny rock will do it. Listen, I love a shiny rock. Give me a quartz, give me a diamond. I don't care.

I love it all. All right. They're beautiful. Do I think that they imbue any kind of energy to me? No, I don't. If you believe that, that's cool. That's awesome. But I also didn't want to, you know, like,

proof on anybody's beliefs, right? So for this book, I really wanted to focus on the scammers, you know, the people who are taking advantage of people who want to be healed. Yeah. Because wellness is full of that, you know? Every industry is full of that. So that was the focus because for me, it was important because I love tarot. I love astrology.

I love, you know, I love witches. I think that stuff's cool and fun. and I will always be that goth kid from the 90s in El Paso, Texas, who loved that stuff, right? So I didn't want to be like taro stupid. I can't believe anyone, no. Like, I wanted it to be like working, infusing it with some of the, you know, like the good healers in this book are terror readers. And they are, you know, witchy and woo-woo. Yes.

But they also legitimately care about people. Yeah. And that's the difference between them and morally. Yeah. It really is. Ronnie is reflecting at one point on something that Marley said about how looking good was a big part of feeling good. So how or why do you think the beauty industry like wormed its way into wellness culture? Well, beauty and health.

So just going by the fashion industry, beauty and health was like a section of every magazine together. Right. And so wellness kind of came into that umbrella. you know, I always say that every beauty vertical website would have a health section. Because, yeah, you know, if you're healthy and you're working out, you know what, your skin might be great. You're going to be glowing because you're sweating. It's great. You know, endorphins are awesome. I said like, like just made myself work out. But I think that, you know, in starting in 2016, let's, I think that, like, it was a little bit earlier, but I think 2016 with with the election

really cemented that fashion was not a focus anymore. It was almost like, you're gonna focus on fashion when the world is on fire, what's happening? So I think a lot of people shifted to wellness because you have, and I know people who are like in fashion and fashion PR, and then all of a sudden they're like wellness guru. And I'm like, how did this happen? Like I've come out with you, you're not a guru, but okay.

Yeah, yeah. And listen, it all comes down to money. It was all, it's all about money for a lot of, people for a lot of the publications you know and I don't need to and then try not to curse I don't mean to because I just I don't mean to shit on wellness it's just I want people to understand the motivations of people that they are following or that they are buying for and understand how it might impact not only their world but the greater world at large yeah and I think that's something we like you can't really

get well via capitalism you know like it's just not going to work you have to figure it out yourself and and work with people and really put the the work in to make yourself well yes completely whatever well means to somebody like I don't feel like there's like a right you know an archetype of well it's more like whatever you think is well yeah I yeah I think that's really a great point So as the story progresses, a pattern kind of starts where Marley would do something that, like, causes anxiety or stress for Ronnie. And then we would get a story from Ronnie's past about something really similar happening with Shamim. Or it would be before, one of the two. So it gave us a lot of insight into why Ronnie was kind of primed to be manipulated by Marley.

So how did you come up with the idea to kind of pare the past and present like that? I just, I like the idea of her basically being her aunt's servant and then breaking free and becoming morally servant. And servant culture, I just have to be honest, is, it's a thing in South Asian culture. You know, everybody in Pakistan in my family that has servants. It's a thing. When my mother moved to here in the 70s, she was horrified that there are no servants anywhere because it was so normal. So that Ronnie would become the servant makes sense because that's, you know, how a lot of things can be. And it was just sort of like, let's, you can't just glom onto this white lady trying to be a white savior who is claiming she can help you and change your life and it's going to go smoothly.

Like you're going to fall back into old patterns. Because we're human. We all do that, right? So Ronnie has to fall back into old patterns and then she has to break those patterns. So that is sort of how that came about for me. So Ronnie also struggles to stand up for herself, kind of coming from that servant mindset, actually, that fits in with it. And she equates being useful with like longevity and getting love from people after like a lifetime of never doing enough for Shamim. So do you think she was kind of primed for the toxic, scammy side of wellness culture because it taps in your like feeling of not being good enough?

enough? Yeah. I think so many of us feel like if we're not working hard enough, if we're not doing anything, if we're not useful enough that people aren't going to want to send time with us. And I think that's a mindset we all have to break out of. Like it's, it's okay to not be useful. It's okay just to be you exist. You don't have to do things. You don't have to, um, you know, do everything to somebody else for them to love you. And that's something is that's a challenge. Like I'm still, I still have days where I'm like, I didn't do anything today and I feel terrible about it. It's not rest. Rest is good for you.

You know, just lying in bed sometimes is exactly what you need. So I wanted Ronnie to go on this journey with me because I was probably, I was feeling that way too. You know, so it's like, God, well, I'm not doing enough. There's these writers who are doing 10,000 things. And I'm barely able to finish this book. I'm not. It was just, it was a lot. It was a lot of me trying to figure that out.

Yeah. through Ronnie and figure out how I how to just be and that just existing is is enough you know makes you worthy it doesn't we don't have to do anything to get that approval but at the same time you know coming from the same background as Ronnie you know you're there is a lot of pressure in you know South Asian families especially to to do to be productive to not just be a doctor but be the best doctor you know you would come home from school and you got a 95, well, why didn't you get 100? You know, so there's a, there is this pressure on us to always perform at a level that is very high and that is very toxic.

That is very, you know, that's something I'm still unlearning. And I know, I have me some nephews now and I'm like, I don't want them to feel that way. You know, I want them to feel like what they, whatever they want to do is great. They don't have to do and or perform at a level. that can cause burnout or that can cause anxiety and depression, which is what it does. Yes. So it was sort of like working all of those issues into running. Yeah.

I, when you said that, I had the same experience. I had a 98% in AP chemistry. And the question was, why is it not 100? Which is great? And also was you're the top of it? If it's not, you'd have to be the top. And it's like, I think it's, look, it's great to have ambition and it's great to teach. kids to be ambitious, but it's also great to tell them that failure is really good for you.

And learning to fail is amazing. And if you can learn to do that. And I didn't learn that until recently, you know? Like if you told me 10 years ago that I was going to fail out of fashion and to move out of New York, I had been like, oh, God, why? But it was the best thing for me, you know? It was like life changing. You know, it was like night and day. Yeah.

That's so cool. And if you are, you do just have to like roll with it. If you can kind of roll with the failure, then it's like, what do I want to do next? Yeah. Yeah. That was really it. You know, I'm sitting there in my apartment with my tiny little dog, not leaving the house, except to Walker, right, leaving my apartment. And it was like, I have nothing to lose.

Let me try writing. Maybe nothing will come of it. But maybe at least I have done something besides what, stare at the TV, right? Let's try it. What's the worst that could happen? Yes. That's really cool. The worst, somebody might say no.

Big deal. Everybody gets a no. So, you know, keep going. Yeah, you can't be afraid of the nose either. That doesn't really get you anywhere. It's a no. It's one of my favorite words. We had a lot.

People are like, can you do this? No, I'm busy. Because I've been that person who would take on all the work, who would do everything, who would work 12 hours a day. And I had such massive burnout that I now guard my time. very carefully. And if I start to feel like I'm approaching burnout, it's like, no, no, no, no, not doing anything. Clear my schedule, rest. So, yeah. Yeah, you've got to, it's, yeah, because once you get burnout, it takes so much longer to, like, reset yourself. It is. It's like you're in molasses

and you're trying to climb out of it. You know, like you just, you can't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally with you on that part. Um, so one of my favorite parts was when Matt, uh, Ronnie, I don't know what I was about to say, was reading a magazine and she saw ads for Reiki and crystals. And she thought all about healthy living if you just buy one more thing. So how counterintuitive is it that some people have turned like wellness into like accumulating things? I, I think that's sort of the American way. You know, we're, we're in this very consumerism moment. the last like 20 years, you know, we're by this, by now. Do I think that healers should be paid for the time? Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

This is different. This is more like you need this product. You need to do this. And I don't know if that is actually helping people or putting them in more dead, you know? So there's definitely a difference. Like it's one thing if you go to a healer and you pay them because obviously their time is worth money. but if you're going to somebody over and over and you're not feeling any changes in your life, it's not striking anything in you to improve your life, then I don't know if it's worth the money.

That said, do I give money to healers that I like? Yeah, especially black and brown. You know, especially you see them on Instagram and I'm always like, all right, listen, I love wearing oils. Let me get some of the oil from them. And that I think is great. I think do what works for you, even if it means you're buying crystals, whatever, but be cognizant that that's not necessarily going to be the magic answer that you're looking for. It's not the golden ticket. You know, there's no shortcut to getting well.

Unfortunately. No, I wish. I know. I like wish. I do too. I don't have a deep living and figuring it out. Yeah. You know, you get migraines too.

I think a lot of women have been neglected and ignored by the medical industry. You know, I've had doctors who are like, I've had migraines since I was six. I've had them almost my entire life. They're pretty chronic, you know, but I've got them under control for the most part. I've had doctors who are like, I don't believe you. You're just trying to get drugs. And I'm like, well, then give me something else. I'm open.

And like, I literally ended up giving myself an ulcer because they wouldn't. And I had a top six Accentrantra day and six adverts a day just to get through my days. Don't do that, people. you will get hold of your stomach. So I think a lot of women turn to wellness because it gives us a sense of control. Like we're taking back. We're taking back what people have been taken from us.

We are trying to help ourselves get better. And that's great, you know. I mean, it's sad that we have to do that, but it's great that people are feeling like they have more control now. That said, I think we also have to look at how we're choosing to be well. You know, like I don't, I really am not a fan of the whole consumerism. angle of things, but, you know, it is what it is. Right. It's going to happen, at least in America to your point. It's definitely going to happen. Yeah. So later in the book, Marley's eyes turns into

kind of like a way to examine how creating fear around outsiders in general put so many people at risk. So did you know you wanted to explore that topic in the story or was it something you just kind of realized fit in? I think that was like, hopefully. election dealing with you know I live in a town that you know people have the giant mega flags everywhere and they've got mega flags on their truck like huge full-size flags on their trucks and they're the maga hats and it's like you know when I I'm one of the few brown people around in this area which is shocking because it's Arizona and you think oh obviously yeah no that in the cities for sure but in the smaller towns up north it can be a little xenophobic

It can be, you know, like my dad and I don't leave our property. You stay where we are because we don't want to deal with people steering or people stay making comments. People get mad at, for no reason you're shopping. You say, excuse me, and somebody starts yelling at you and you're like, are you actually just yelling because I'm a brown woman trying to get around to you? Like, I don't understand what's happening here. Right. So it was a lot of what I was feeling living here. And look, there are wonderful people here.

You know, this is not to say that every single person lives here is like that. but I have experienced a fair amount of them and I wanted Marley's eyes to tap into that moment because it is it's unnerving you know he's very unnerving coming from you know very diverse city where everybody hangs out with everybody to being here and being one of the few brown people around you know and it's like I don't this is this is scary this is like legitimately scary scared for my life sort of situation at times so I wanted that to be reflected that to be reflected but it also it was like there is definitely a segment of wellness that is very white but also very white supremacist and we've got we've seen that with the whole QAnon folks you know with

the Q&on shaman so it was like let's kind of reference that a little bit and see if that makes sense to people and if it hits you know if it rings any bells um so in the end Ronnie is like actually empowered. Yes. You know, it's so funny. When you write a book, it's so funny how much you absolutely forget what's in it. Because I'm now working on my next book and in edit. So I'm like, was it a knife?

Is that what she did? I don't remember. Yeah. Yes. That's, I mean, I'm sure it is. Like, you're in like two separate worlds. It is. Yeah.

Brain is a little overwhelmed. But yes. So she empowers herself. Yes. And we find out who the murderer is, which I did not share. And then we find out that Ronnie has empowered herself before. And I think that was a shock to some people. Whereas to me, I'm like, oh, it's going to be so obvious.

They're all going to get this part. I was hoping that that's what it was. I was like, please let me have done that. She did it. She did it. And that also contributed to her paranoia throughout the whole thing. That people are going to know me. They're going to find out my secrets.

They're going to know I'm not good enough, you know, because she legitimately had a terrible secret. And so we need to find out at the end. Yeah. I put in all my aunt. I actually realize, you know, we use a lot of nicknames. We don't use like our, my aunts are always like, you know, different nicknames. And I realized after the fact that I do have an aunt named Shameen. And so I need to send her an apology because she's the nicest woman.

Oh, no. Like, just so lovely. And I would be like, it's not about you. I promise. I just, I hear a name in my ear and it's like, oh, that's the name I need. And so I always borrow from people, but it's not a reflection of them, but I'm just like, I'm so sorry. That would be the hard part about writing is like not writing anyone's names that you know. Yeah, I literally don't even care. I'll go through Twitter and Facebook. I mean, like, whose names do I want? That's a good name. Like, mix and match the first and last name, you know, and like go from there.

Nice. Nice. So did you know you wanted to have the character arc from the beginning that like she would empower herself through a very different method than like all the wellness methods? Yes. Listen, I'm not a, I'm not a nuanced person. I'm very, I'm not subtle. I'm more of a sledgehammer type of person. So I was like, how would I do with it? I would murder somebody, you know? So that's. I felt like that was the ultimate way for her to be like, no, this is my life. I'm going to take control. Yes. And, you know, it worked. Yeah. Yeah. No, it did.

It did. I loved it. I thought it was a good reflection of the rage she felt. And then also, if you've ever felt rage yourself, it's cathartic. Like, because I'm never going to go kill the people who disempowered me. But it was nice reading someone else doing it. And I definitely, you know, there is also an issue in your writing from your culture. You don't necessarily want to portray people poorly because it's, it's, you're never allowed to just have bad characters.

It's always a huge reflection in the statement. I was like, you know what, no, I just want to have bad characters. And I also wanted to tap into the fact that there is a toxic angle to the South Asian community, you know, in the way you're not allowed to be independent from your elders. You know, I definitely had that. I had very, you know, when I was 18, my parents were very, very Pakistani, very Muslim, very controlling. And I took off into New York. You know? And I was like, okay, this isn't going to work for me.

Peace out. So I understood her rage. And, you know, my father is not like that anymore. He's really, he's really chill. And it's kind of really funny to me. Like, he just becomes this very, very awesome, relaxed back. So it was, but I will remember. feeling that rage. I remember thinking how much I hated every part of my life because I felt

so controlled. And I wanted Ronnie to have that moment where she's free from all of that. Yes, yes. When you were talking about not wanting to represent a whole culture badly in one character and you're like, I just want to have the characters that I have. We recently saw Jordan Peel's new movie. Nope. And actually that was you really compared Okay. The review that compared you to Jordan Peel is kind of crazy because I thought that review was so, such a good review of it. But I died when they said that's what I saw that. Yeah. I would like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What I do. Oh, my God. It was such a good comparison, though. It was a really good comparison. But I won't even pretend I'm on the level of Jordan Peel. I wish I were and that's something I can work up to. goal i i think you're there but you can keep working for it too if that means i get to read more of your books so geeky palmer's in that movie yeah so i saw an interview with her where she was talking about what she appreciates about jordan peel is he writes black characters and has black

people in his movies but the movies aren't about them being black it's just i'm writing a really good movie and i'm going to choose to cast black people so it was reminding me of that it's not about necessarily the cultural trauma it's just these are characters having feedback and that was how it was for Ronnie you know I think her abusive relationship with her aunt could speaks to a lot of people I think a lot you know you might not have the exact same experience but you know you understand it whether across cultures I think one of the things that publishing in general has to get better at when we're doing inclusive stuff and diversity is making sure that one character is not a statement.

You know, somebody writes a terrible mean white character. It's not a statement about white people. So it would be really great when we get to that point where a mean character who happens to be DESI is not a statement about DESE people. It's just this is the character. She's terrible. She just happens to be Bacacani. So that's hopefully a goal that we'll see.

I mean, I'm sure people are going to. take offense to some of the things I wrote about either about not just shemine but also barley but it was more like let's talk about this behavior as opposed to saying oh she thinks all day Csies are like that you know because you don't um so but that's definitely a challenge you know yeah because you you kind of included that when when she after the blood facials which that was very jordan peel ask in my opinion that was like straight out of like a horror Those are real facials. Those are real patients.

I know they're real. I've never done one. I know that Gwen Papa was talking about them. I just kind of like the idea of using literally brown people's blood to be young. You know, it's like an overarching statement about pulling from other cultures and not celebrating those cultures, but stealing from them for your wellness. So that's my very heavy-handed way of doing something. Yeah, yeah. And then she has kind of the bruises on her face. And then the next day, someone's like, did your husband do this to you because of your culture or that's at least her implication?

And Ronnie was thinking about like she did have her experience with Shamim, but then she thinks of her friend's parents whose name I can't think of right now. Who were really kind. Yeah. And so she even then was like, I wish people understood it wasn't just like one thing. Yeah. And also, I think when you're writing characters whose background is Muslim, it is even more fraud. You know, and so one of the things I had said about Shamin was she's not religious because I didn't want it to be about being religious and she behaves this way. She just behaves this way because she's a jackass. There's nothing to do anything else. And in fact, she's not religious. She just puts on airs. Because I did feel pressure to make sure I didn't. screw that up. I didn't want it's the same reason I didn't make the main character and fashion victim Pakistani and people have asked me about this

and the reason I didn't is because then she would be Muslim and then if she's Muslim and she's killing people that's an entirely different book and I would not have gotten away with that book. I still don't think you could get away with that book so that was the reason because you don't want to contribute

when you know there is a responsibility and not contribute to the phobia that our society has and you know whether it's against brown people or or Muslims or what have you um so it's a fine line to walk i hope i i blocked it but you know i'm sure that there are things um i said in there that people that i thought were spoiled and silly that somebody could take offense to you know yeah i mean that's always going to be the case you can't help that anymore you can't so it does especially when you're talking about like the idea of literally trying to steal or use their blood to make them feel better and kind of like steal from the culture without

appreciating it. The book really focuses on how white wellness, maybe I'll call it that, in some ways has like not respected other cultures when it integrates it into wellness. Right. So from your perspective, what is like a respectful approach that white people or just other cultures can take to incorporate? It is definitely a challenge, I think, because you don't want to steal from cultures and then, like, a good example is what's happened with people using sage. We've all known that this is something that indigenous tribes do. It's their part of their spirituality and their rights. Sage is an endangered plant now because so many people are using it.

And can the people who is part of their culture. are they able to get it, you know? And that's one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, that's crazy. So, yeah, I think we, we as consumers have to be cognizant of our impact, whether it's on stage or whether it's, you know, like, oh, I'm going to do, like, in the book, I have them really into Rumi, who's this, you know, Muslim poet, a Sufi poet. And if you go on Instagram, it's Rumi quotes all throughout, right? The funny thing is, as if those quotes are extremely watered down and he was writing about his relationship with God.

And it's very, he was very Muslim and about man. So that we have these white women promoting this Muslim poet, but at the same time are vaguely Islamophobic. Because like Islamophobia is one of those accepted phobia still of our culture, you know? And it's like, guys, if you're going to. use this, understand who it comes from, understand what they're actually saying, and be open to that culture. On the flip side, you know, and I know every brown and black person has dealt with this, when I say be open, I don't mean going up to your one brown friend and peppering them with every single question you've ever had. We're not Google. We're not, you know,

the 401 line for you. There are books out there you can read that will answer your questions. don't make us have to be the person to explain everything to you. Like it's, it happens so often that it's exhausting, just flat out exhausting. Yeah. So you have to make this effort to, you know,

to learn about other cultures and to learn where some of these rituals came from. Like my sister, I always tell this story because it makes me laugh at my sister lives in Texas. And one of our white neighbors was explaining Hena to her. And my sister was like, Are you joking? Explaining it. Like, you're explaining.

Hannah, okay, okay. Wow. She was just like, it's things like that. Don't go into these, you know, into your relationship, assuming you know more than the other person, you know, and that happens a lot. And it's like, stop and listen a little bit more. You know what I mean? Do your own research. Yeah.

I don't mean YouTube. I mean, take up a book and learn about these cultures and what the rights and rituals mean. like learn the history of them and why they are what they are and you think that would go a long way in improving the world where everyone is like let me pick and choose from these different cultures because all these different little things will make me well and it's like you don't need understand why you're doing those things you know so you need to yeah I think we all and I and I and I'm not putting white people on a spotlight here I do the same thing I wasn't really into stage and then when I realized what that means like oh

you know what I don't want to buy anything with sage in it because I want to make sure that it's available to the people it's part of their culture um so there are things like and also like there's things like crystals crystals are beautiful right they're wonderful why aren't we talking about how we're getting these crystals you know some of them are mind and they're mined by children you know in different countries um are we okay with that like how is that going to heal you when that crystal came at the expense of somebody else's life So I think there are things that we need to look at in a way to that wellness is not just about you. It's about also your impact on the world. And so let's kind of figure that out. Fingers crossed, we will.

Yeah, I think that's a, that was great advice there at the end. I love that. So where can keep people, I am messing on my words today. Where can people find you so they can follow you and stay up to date with everything? You can't. I'm going to hide out in the duck. No, I'm just kidding. I'm online a lot.

That's true. I'm on and I guarantee I generally am very stone when I'm tweeting. So please don't take anything too seriously. But, I'm like, disclaimer, I'm on Twitter and I'm on Instagram and my dog is too and you will see lots of photos of my dog. It's Dramina, D-R-R-R-R-A-M-I-N-A for both.

And my website, which I have to update, I know, but it's omnaactar.org. You know, I try to be responsive to people when they reach out to me unless they're just being poop heads and they mean. If you have been questions or suggestions for books or what have you. Like I always try to shout out as a writer as much as I can. So you want book recommendations.

Or you just want photos of my dog, which listen, I get. I do too. So happy to be friends. That's awesome. So I'll put those links in the show notes so people can go there and follow you and stuff. Yeah. And thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Like your video, I was like, everybody likes the book. Oh, my God. I was so excited. Oh, that's awesome. I'm so glad. It's a trip to know that people are reading it, but then somebody actually responds well to it,

and they're like, oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. Yay. Yes, everyone needs to go read it. It is. It's amazing.