Bookwild - An Eldest Daughter Pastor’s Kid Unpacks Her Father's Arrest and Shares the Books That Changed Everything with Kate Johnson

Episode Date: July 31, 2026

This week, I talk with Kate Johnson about her deconstruction journey and healing from religious trauma. Listen to hear all about: How growing up in evangelical culture created an information bubble. We reflect on how strict media restrictions, homeschooling, and Christian-only entertainment reinforced the belief that avoiding certain books, movies, and ideas would keep families spiritually and physically safe. How trauma exposed the cracks in that worldview. Kate Johnson shares how her father's arrest for child sexual abuse material shattered the promise that following every rule would guarantee safety, leading to a painful reevaluation of the community and beliefs she trusted. Why forgiveness without accountability can deepen harm. We discuss how teachings about immediate forgiveness sometimes minimize abuse, shift responsibility onto victims, and allow perpetrators to avoid meaningful accountability. When books became a path toward healing and perspective. Kate Johnson shares how fantasy novels initially provided escape during childhood, while later works by authors like Kristin Kobes Du Mez, Rachel Held Evans, and Tia Levings helped her understand her experiences within the larger context of evangelical culture rather than seeing them as isolated events. How deconstruction ultimately led to connection instead of fear. Rather than abandoning spirituality altogether, we discuss moving toward a spirituality rooted in curiosity, community, nature, joy, and authentic human connection instead of shame, perfectionism, and control. Links: Kate Johnson's Substack Kate Johnson's List of Books for Healing from Religious Trauma Kate Johnson's List of Books on Purity Culture All the Bookwild Links:Check Out the Bookwild SubstackSubscribe to Bookwild on YouTubeGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramCheck Out Author Social Media Packages Follow Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mbaErin Ashley @bellametaphor 

Today I am with another Kate, Kate Johnson, who has been through a lot of similar stuff to me. Like beyond the fact that our names are similar, I think we have, we'll probably discover even more in common than we probably. So I'm excited. We're going to kind of talk about your story. You're, I would almost say not unique, but also unique experiences with. evangelical Christianity. And then, yeah, kind of how you've coped with it in the aftermath as an adult. And as we were kind of discussing a little bit off air, how books can be a big part of that.

So I am super excited to chat. And thanks for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So I know you grew up in the church, very in the church. So what was like early childhood like basically? Like what was that journey?

Oh man. So I grew up a pastor's daughter in the PCA church. And there's like several versions of Presbyterians. There's like some very cool Presbyterians that are affirming. They believe women could preach. These people were also cool, but they didn't, they weren't affirming. And they didn't believe that women could preach. Right.

So just different vibe of Presbyterians. Yeah. So I grew up in that era, like late 90s, early 2000s. And it was really like kind of the tail end of this family values culture. So everything was very much like if your family watches and listens to like all these different things, if they read these books, then like you and your family will be safe as part of this. So like there was a lot of like anti-H Harry Potter stuff. like anti-pokemon like a lot of evangelical kids media like i don't know if you remember the donut man oh 100% yeah prayer bear which is not when i hear come up a lot but that's totally when we watch i heard you talking about that one that was one that i didn't have but that one really fascinating yeah yeah that one that one is a trip yeah um yeah so a lot of evangelical kids media during that time. And as I grew older, like really just noticing there was certain books that like kids could read and like kids could not read. Like I remember my sister had this book and it was about like

a little girl that was like kind of like a Franken girl like kind of like Frankenstein, but like a little kid. Yeah. And she was like, oh, I'm really into this. Like I'm really into the Halloween. And my mom was like, no, you can't, you can't watch that or you can't read that book because it has like, this monster kid in it. So like a very like anything anti-horror. We still celebrate Halloween in our house, but like we didn't get to celebrate. Yeah, we had a lot of friends like that, but we were always allowed to do it. But just that was something like not scary.

Like I was like a fairy genie princess one year. Like there you know. Yeah. But anything like, I don't know, like scary. like that there was a lot of control over like what you watched what you read um my my mom thankfully was like she would really love books and she wanted us to read so that really became an outlet for me to explore different things by new other kids who like their parents would like go through their library books and like say what they could and couldn't read and there was just a lot of control

there yep yeah yeah yeah it was the same thing for me same thing like no harry Potter because he had the mark of the devil on him. I said that in the Bible with that lightning bolt. Right. Right. It looked like this little nerdy white boy with a with a scar on his forehead. So yeah, I grew up around a lot of that. And I do think I was, I interestingly, I was just interviewing Kristen Kobiz Dumay. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. For her new book, Live laugh, love. And that conversation and kind of what you and I are talking about now was reminding me that like, we were creating echo chambers before algorithms existed. And there was. You could be

in a completely white evangelical Christian media bubble for a very long time. And for me personally, it was like, I wasn't interacting with mainstream media until I was like 19 or 18, basically. when I went to college and then I was like, oh, there are so many things that I'm interested in now. Yeah. I have no clue this all existed out there. So we'll kind of get to that a little bit later too, probably, both of us finding, you know, access to stories that resonated with us or helped us understand things. But I know that you went through a very traumatic moment.

Like you were saying, there was kind of a belief, especially with this Dobson focus on the family kind of branding that like if you did everything right you and your family would be safe and I've heard you talking about it too and it was reminding me in my experience it was like we are in the world but not of it yeah everyone out there is dangerous but like we are the chosen people so we are safe but that did not um that did not keep you from having to you know deal with multiple incarcerations with your Yeah. So can you kind of talk about what that part was like for you? Yeah. So I grew up in like those very controlled like Christian media world where it's like control where you watch, what you read, like all all these different things.

Yeah. And all that was supposed to keep you safe. But that all changed. My dad was arrested for the thing that youth pastors are arrested for, which is several counts of child sexual abuse material. And it's kind of shocking because it was like a total shock then. Like no one had heard about it then. But like now we hear about it literally every week. It's like an epidemic. Yes. And that totally changed my world. Like the the church community that we had like I was never a cool kid,

but like a pastor's kid kind of makes you a cool kid. It's within that community. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you lose a lot of your community, a lot of your friends, all the things that like really kept you in that bubble. And it was like kind of a breaking of that world that you grew up in. And also like that loss of innocence too,

because you thought that you were safe within it. But the call was literally coming from inside the house. Yeah. Yeah. Like yeah. Like literally to the most literally. Like the actual use of the word literally. Yeah. There are a couple of things I heard you mention in a couple of things I listen to as well is there's sort of even like you're saying that it's a bit of an epidemic at this point you can't deny that there's a pattern of this that there and if we even extend it outside of people who are like weekly churchgoers there's also like Russell Brand finally has sexual allegations all of a sudden is a Christian can't even think of the fighter's name right now, which I'm kind of okay with. The Irish UFC fighter. Connor McGregor is

indicted for rape. And he all of a sudden finds Jesus and is a Christian and is forgiven. So sometimes this culture of forgiveness is very appealing for people who do not want to be held accountable. Absolutely. And that had to be, I heard your dad actually moved back in at one point. Yeah. So like, how confusing was that for you? Yeah. So after my father was arrested, he went through the whole court process and everything. And he was placed on five years of probation. For a variety of reasons, my parents decided to stay together, which was kind of like the narrative

push. Like divorce was bad. Like for the stability of your kids. like, which you still see now, like you had, you had to stay. Yeah. And I think another important thing about that whole thing is that it wasn't framed as like a predatory behavior towards minors. It was also framed as a pornography addiction. Right. Which is like a really prominent thing in the evangelical church is to frame it as an addiction.

So I think when we're talking about like people who suddenly become Christians, like it's kind of framed as like, oh, like you didn't do this bad thing like you aren't this bad person yeah like this is just an addiction that you deal with but we can help you overcome it yes um and i think there's also this narrative that allows us to spiritually bypass what was done because when my dad was arrested like i remember him asking me immediately before i even knew like what he did because i was nine years old when it happened yeah yeah very young and like I wasn't even allowed to know what he did because it was so bad I just knew that I had something to do with computers right and yeah so he

the first thing he asked was like do you forgive me and I didn't know what I was forgiving right yeah yeah but like in order to be it's such an interesting dynamic for people on that because it's like in order to be a good person like the the onus is put on you as the victim as to be a good person to forgive them. And it's framed as something like you have to forgive so that like this you are holding a grudge so it doesn't corrupt your soul. Yes. You're doing this.

And when we do that, like it allows us to spiritually bypass all the accountability of the situation. And I remember one thing that was talked to us like pretty frequently is like, oh, like God, like when you believe in God, when you can best your sins of Jesus, like every, everything washes away, all your shame, all these things that you did. And you shouldn't hold a grudge. Like you shouldn't, you need to forgive and forget. You need to like let go of that.

Yes. So that's really convenient because it allows us to spiritually bypass that whole grieving and the whole forgiveness journey. And really the accountability. for the abusive person as well. So I had already forgiven him, so I couldn't be mad at him during those years. For doing it for something you didn't know.

Yeah, it was something I didn't know until years later. And just the minimization of what was done, because when I did find out, I think it was about seventh grade, what he actually did do. They sat us down and it was finally time. I was finally old enough. Like when they did,

said it's down he compared himself to jean valjean like okay yeah from from laymise and it's like yeah like i've been on the sex offender registry and like they just keep on holding this thing against me that like god has already forgiven me for but like they just keep on chasing after me to punish me for this thing but it's like you didn't steal a loaf of bread like right Yeah. Yeah, you were doing bad stuff. Yes. So it's really interesting, like, how examples like that and books and the Bible and those

sorts of things are used in this narrative of like, oh, you have to forgive me so I can skip this accountability portion of stuff. Totally. Yeah. And from what I've learned, because I went on a long deconstruction journey. there are sects or versions of Christianity where it's like very much acknowledged that continual growth and looking at yourself is like almost the most important part of that spirit quality even within Christianity but we just constantly improving yourself to be perfect

yeah yeah we kind of well and then there's like the whole desire to be be perfect, which can end up being so so painful too. But there, it's like there were versions of Christianity where it wasn't just like, just say you believe and everything is forgiven and it's that easy. So it's like, it's just, it's, it's interesting over the long history of it, seeing how much, especially in America, how much like evangelical Christianity and capitalism kind of spun together so much that it's kind of hard to even. and separate them out a little bit in some cases. But yeah, like the accountability part is so important.

And it's important for like the people who've been affected by someone's behavior. And I think in America we've gotten away from that. I almost don't think that's an opinion. I think there's facts. But I know it's kind of an opinion. So during that time, like as he is on the sex offender list. and you are a child yourself at home. Was there anything that helped you kind of like make sense of that?

Or what was that part like? Yeah, it was really funny because I was looking back at my old journalist from that time. Oh, wow. Yeah, do you remember Wings Club? Remember what club? Wings Club. I don't think I do. Oh, okay.

It was like these like superhero like fairy girls. Oh, okay. Yes, yes. Yeah. So I was like really into Winks Club during that time. And like for like a full year after his first arrest, and maybe a little bit longer, like I was like I am a fairy, like I am a fairy superhero and I'm going to like save the world and like escape to like the Salfia place. And so my imagination like really became a refuge for me during that time. And one of the things that really fed that imagination was fantasy books. I love that. Yeah. It was like it started with Narnia. Like yeah.

Yeah. Which is funny because I think Narnia was my first like introduction to like the idea of Jesus like as land on the stone table. Uh huh. But I don't know. I also find Narnia really interesting because like I really saw this growth of like Christian nationalism growing up. And it's like literally this idea like these kids can rule this country and they're uniquely

qualified even though they had no qualifications. but they're the chosen ones. Correct. That's so it's really interesting. Oh, you're so right. You're so right. Yep. Yep. Yeah, but it's like they're God ordained, so therefore it's fine.

Yeah, it'll work out. Yeah. But yeah, it's also interesting that like Aslan's choosing children to do this stuff. Uh-huh. Like, I don't know. They're very mottable. They're very shapeable. And as a kid, like, you really take that as like,

this is my responsibility. Like I need to take this on. And so when my dad's arrest happened, like I was really take, I really took on a lot during that time. There was a lot of parentification that happened during that time where like I was doing a lot of chores because I was homeschooled. Like, yes. Yeah, they created this whole chore chart. And basically it was like, oh, you aren't a dollar a day for doing these chores. but they were like age inappropriate chores for the time where it was like it was like day one do the whole family of sixes laundry like and like clean the whole kitchen at night like on Fridays you clean and vacuum like the whole car and yeah and it was it was like every day like clean the whole bathroom like one day like and you couldn't say no because in that dobs scenario if you said no then that was disneyed.

obedience. Right. Yeah, that was rebellion. So it really put me in this isolating place because I was homeschooled. Like there was no one I could go to. And there was no like the homeschool systems. They don't have mandatory reporters or like they don't they don't have systems in place so that if there is child abuse happening, like they don't have systems that you can go into. So I think it's You're the adults present aren't going to, aren't going to tell on themselves, and you're just a kid. Yeah. And I think it's either in like 46 or 48 states, somewhere between there. Like, you can't, your parent can be on the sex offender registry and you can be homeschooled at the same time.

Yeah. So you're like isolating these kids on this registry that is filled with isolation and shame. Yes. Because there's so, there's so much stigma, understandably, right? Totally. But you're also putting kids in the situation where because of the structure of the sex offender registry, you are putting kids in a situation where there is housing instability. There's financial instability. Like there, I was food insecure during that time. Because my dad was a Reagan Republican, he wouldn't accept any sort of like. When I heard you say that, like my husband had like the same situation. I had never connected it till like, oh, of course that she's like, now that I've read more. I'm like, of course that is very related to Reagan Republic. Yeah, because there was so much shame around it, right?

Like, oh, you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Like, there's a lot of shame. Which, by the way, you can't do. It is a phrase that we have like evolves incorrectly. You can't do it. Okay. Sorry. You're putting all these things together.

it's just creating the situation that's right for abuse. Yes. So when I was in, I believe, sixth grade, I started helping my dad out with his landscaping business. Oh, yeah. And at that time, I was able to be alone with him. But, like, I was, I was raking mulch. Like, I was doing, like, things in middle school that, like, a middle schooler wouldn't

typically do. Right. Also being praised, like, you're so mature, like, all the different phrases. And then like now that I had money, my dad with when we were in the car, he'd say things like, oh, like, can you give me this money to help pay for rent or groceries or like these sorts of things? And there was no one that I could go to about it. And there were, but he was like, don't tell anyone. So you're really putting these kids in this situation where you know if you're going to speak up,

then like you and your siblings will be separated and taken away and that sort of things. So I'd say all that because that's why I do this work now because we have such an epidemic of this situation happening and we have this idea that like the the people who are doing this are like lone men and like a shadowy room on their computers. but like child predators statistically if we put all the statistics together they're more likely to be white male religious men with families and yeah you're putting them the situation you're combining it with the structures of the sex offender registry and we're creating an environment where child abuse is just found to happen so that's why I speak up about that now yes but things that help me deal with it were fantasy bucks during that time

time, which is funny because like when we're talking about at the beginning, like all the restrictions on like things that kids read. Like especially with magic, right? Like, I remember like just playing fairies and my dad was like, oh, well, you're waving your wander around. Like, you're like you'll, you'll become a witch. Like being a cute. That's how it works.

I'm like, dude, like I'm seven. Like I'm going to play fairies. But or like, oh, I love, I love the Aragon series. Oh, I loved that. They stifled up. Like, it's such a great coming of age story. Yeah. But like just being able to like escape in that.

Like I, it was before like audio books were like a really like prominent thing that you could get easily. So I like read the entire first two books out loud to my sister. Oh, that is so precious. Yeah. I love that. But it was like something that we could bond over. Totally. Yeah.

Then my dad was like, oh, well, dragons are bad because of the book of Revelation. I know. It kind of is insane how much they seem scared of having fun. Like, yeah. I say that in just. Obviously, they have like nefarious versions of having fun, I guess. But you're like, these are like just fun stories to get to consume. And like you're saying, like, at the time, you, like, needed escapism, too, I mean, from them.

So it's not like they wanted to give you, like, the key to that. But I hate that. Yeah. And it's kind of like another part of, like, what I do now is I try to make things fun. So, like, I grew up with this God and it was this guy of, God of, like, hierarchy. Like, the man is at the top, the women, then the children. Yes, the, like, umbrella model. Yeah.

Like, like, we didn't know how it was working, but like, that definitely filtered in. Yeah. There, like, there was this God of shame. Like, there was this God of fear of messing up in perfectionism. But, like, the first time I remember, like, in my life, like, meeting what I would call God. Like, I was swimming with my friend, who later came out as trans. and we were at church camp together. And I remember just swimming like through this lake

and we were tasting all the little fish like in the lake and just feeling like this profound sense of like joy and peace calder me and then this feeling of like God laughing with us. And it was just like this funness and this silliness and just this joyfulness

that like wasn't bound by like all these rules that we had, it was this very free thing. And that that was something that guided me through my journey. Because I think what my experience with God has been is a God who desires this freedom. I think the ultimate expression of freedom is that silliness and joy and having that piece of your life and that safety. Yeah. That is something when I think about what like spirituality is for me now. There's a book called Children Like Us that is about a woman who basically learned that she was a part of the 60s scoop, which was when a lot of white people in both Canada and the U.S. were taking indigenous babies from their parents and either

somewhat legally adopting them or just not even close to legally adopt. adopting them. So like that and her just a very conflicting upbringing for her in a very religious family who just didn't want her to even. They told her she was not indigenous. And so then later in life she had to kind of unpack that. But she has a section where she also talks about running around like with her shoes off like running around in the dirt and like feeling it in her toes. And they also would foster a lot of indigenous children. So she would get really close to these children that felt like her sisters and brothers because they were. But those were the moments that felt like church to her. And so like every time I come across a like, oh, why does church have to be in a building?

That's like the closest thing to God that like I would connect to nowadays to. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think there's so much in nature. that we can take from it. Like nature was a huge part for me during that time of just being able to go into the woods. We had this great woods behind our house and just like play so many like imagination games, like making our swords and like making soup and like making little forts like literally building like our own homes. Yeah.

And just being able to go into that space and use our imagination and act out the things that we are learning and like the stories that we were learning and like the stories that we were. read. Like, I remember reading Bridge to Terribithia. And it's just like so sad. Such a sad book. I sobbed. But like wanting to build like my own version of like terribithia like out in the woods. And just like I think where we're experiencing so much pain like nature has that ability to hold it for us so that we can find those moments of joy that carry us through that time. Yeah, it's so important to be able to find those things and the connectedness, I think, that you're talking about too.

That's like, I remember, you've probably heard of Pete Holmes, who is, he's a comedian, grew up very, and like a very restrictive version of Christianity. And now I think he kind of considers himself probably a Christian mystic is what he would say nowadays, if he would even put a label on it. I haven't listened to him in the last couple months, so I don't want to assume. But I remember years ago, like this was probably like five or seven years ago, hearing him talk about like, why does church have to be a place where I put on pants that are not true to me and a sweater that is not true to me? And I go and sit and like don't act like myself for a few for like an hour.

And then I leave. And he's and it was during a podcast with one of his close friends. and he was like, why, why can't church be the connection that you and I are having right now, like looking at each other, seeing each other being present with each other. I'm getting chills just talking about it again, but I remember hearing that so long ago at the beginning of my journey and being like, oh, because like so much of church and Christianity was wrapped up in like, almost like surveillance or like feeling like I was in a panopticon. I'm sure similar for you.

when I started therapy, my therapist pointed out it's kind of like being a child of a pastor is similar to being in a politician's family. So it's like everyone thinks they know you. Everyone thinks they're kind of owed something from you even if it's just, oh, you will stop and talk to me and like, we'll stand here for two hours after church has ended. So there's like all of that going on as well. And so that's like what it was for me. And it was probably a big part of my deconstruction was like having moments like hearing Pete say that and being like, oh yeah, why I feel more spiritual when I'm like connected to someone and when I'm not just wearing khakis or in my case a dress. And like putting on a front. So that's always been what has felt like more connected for me as well.

Yeah. I think there's definitely. something to that like I think I think when I think of spirituality um like it is it is it is connection with each other and I think we feel that connection when we go into the woods where it's not a hierarchical structure we are connected in this web of life um and there there's this like the story of genesis for example like God's creating everything and they're like this is good this is good this is good and then they come to Adam, which just means like a human being. Like there's no male or female yet.

And they come to Adam and they're like, oh, this is not good. And what they mean by that is like it's not good for them to be alone. Like they need connection. And it's not about that male or female connection. It's just having connection with people in our life. And there's another verse where like the word church isn't actually in the Bible. means like a collection of a collection of people yeah basically it's like if where two or more of you are present like so so why so why be so like literally like that that spiritual thing is found and

connection between people and that that's good and i think what's so interesting about like the conversation that we're having now is that shame yeah that we experience because of like when when I experienced shame for the first time like my my first banking like I didn't learn like I was doing something bad and a big part of this child development but I think it's also deeply rooted in Calvinism like you learn I am bad like I am a little worm like and that that shame like that fear and shame and all that that guilt like it's there's no good or bad emotions but like so often it's separates us from connection with other people. And I think when like we are separated from connection like that that is like so terrible for us as human beings. Like I think I really like I don't

want to get like too spiritual or make assumptions. Oh no. I think it really like degrades our soul in a way. Like I like I think like I don't know. It just brings us to. to like a much like on the fundamental level i that's you start to think you're so bad um yeah exactly that's i think that you're bad yeah and it just sticks with you more than you understand like yeah i did therapy in my 20s and i am 33 right now um and it's still there uh which is a whole thing but like if you have complex PTSD if you have trauma that was ongoing it never completely goes the way i remember when i started therapy i was like okay so what do i need to learn so that like none of this will ever appear again and she was like so yeah so you're going to learn tools and it will

like the traumatic triggers will drop down in frequency but it is going to kind of stick with you and you learn how to talk to yourself nicer but it is it's it's so so deep within you. I was just seeing someone point this out too about the song Amazing Grace, which obviously in general, that's where I was headed with it. Yeah. We laud it as this like, oh, this. And it's so hard to suss out everything about that song.

Like it's sad that an enslaved man whose chains, my chains are gone. I've been set free was still. like amazing grace saved a wretch like me like that's even more heartbreaking that that's even how the person who was writing it felt about themselves yeah it was very indicative of the the culture you and i grew up in that it stuck around for so long because there is so much belief of original sin and that like you are so corrupt and that you start corrupt and you're just constantly trying to like earn your way back to worthiness yeah and i think we're just trying to earn our way back to safety because if you think of a kid like you learn that if you do something bad then you are bad

yeah and to find that safety so that you literally aren't hurt by the people who loved you like yes like the people who love you like you are you are trying to be good and you have you have to be good in order to avoid that so I think there's so much of that that like keeps us from forming like the normal developmental milestones. Correct. The Elevings talks about it in her book, I belong to me. Yes.

About like the different milestones that we miss and evangelicalism. And I think a big part of that is like we are just trying to be good because goodness equals safety. Yes. Absolutely. And our in our lives. But I think like it's also like a grooming thing because if you're just trying to be good all the time, like,

in order to be safe, like it's really grooming you in a lot of ways to accept this abuse and your life from people who love you. Right. And you mentioned the homeschooling part and how it keeps you, it keeps you in a bubble. There's no one for you to like reach out to. But the other thing is it is another example that restricts your, the accessibility of information. Yeah. that could have helped you think otherwise or be like, oh, maybe I resonate with that. So were there any moments where like some information broke through to you or did you mostly discover that like after you left the house? Yeah.

So I feel like a lot of the things that like I learned, there was another aspect of it where like there was a lot of monitoring in our house because of my dad's crime. So there was covenant eyes on the computer. Oh. And it was a way of like monitoring like all our internet history. Wow. Yeah. So like I'm a smart kid.

I figured out how to get around like some of those things. But like so much of like my my sex education. Like everything like that like came from being able to bypass those safeguards. Oh wow. I was literally afraid. that like it would it would show up on the stuff that was researching things that had literally been kept for me yes um yeah and just like trying to learn things from the internet like I think I probably would have been too scared to like bring a book from the library but like thankfully like I was

able to go to the library and like read up on different things oh good um and I know that like especially like I get when kids are a little like you don't want them to read like an age and appropriate book but like I don't know like I know other kids like their their media consumption was like a lot more restricted yeah so like I don't know if I'd ever bring a book about like a gay kid into my house like I wouldn't have yeah yeah so like things like that where you're just like there's nothing technically stopping you but like you feel this need to hide everything all the time in order to access like these other points of view and information. But at the same times like the books that I did read like my parents were reading every single

one. I was able to learn about other perspectives and other cultures outside of my own. And at the time like I still thought that like my my culture was the right culture and my aunt that was the right path. But like I was reading about like people from other places so like books did play a huge role in expanding my world as as I learned more and more and then as I was trying to make sense of things like purity culture and like um what I went through with my dad and about evangelicalism and all that like books had such a profound impact and helping me both see myself in them and also be able to intellectuals actually like understand like what was going on like I remember reading Kristen Kobe Dumez's book like

Jesus and John Wayne and just being able to place like oh this is the time period I grew up in and these are the things that were going on during this time and this is like this wasn't an isolated thing like this was a movement and we're part of this like larger movement in the culture yes and I remember just like, I don't think it was in college. And this sounds really funny, but like, I don't think it was in college until I fully put together that like I came from a subculture in the U.S. Yeah. Like, I just thought like, you're either Christian or you're not Christian and you're like. I know, because it's like it was very jarring for me having that realization. Like, oh, yeah, everyone is taking it this kind of seriously. And then also realizing that like, yes, Christianity, broad

was something that a lot of Americans said they, like, believed in it and took part of, but nobody was doing it as intensely as what I grew up around. It's so confusing. Yeah, so it was like, it was a college before I realized that I was part of a subculture. And then once I got there, I was like, oh, like, I need to learn more about, like, these other cultures and religions and really, really develop this understanding that isn't filtered through, like, the Christian worldview. I'm about everything.

Like I need to understand this from an objective perspective. But like understanding like, oh, like this is not the only way to live. Right. This is a subculture. Like was such like a life changing thing for me because it was like, oh, there are other ways to do this and there are other paths to go. And I think things like Rachel Hout Evans like Faith unraveled, like searching. for Sunday, the year biblical womanhood. Like those were some of the first books that I found during that time.

And like they were so life-changing because I remember one of the things she was talking about was like asking questions. Like and it's funny because like I grew up in a family who like when my parents decided to have kids, they were like, we're going to allow our kids to ask questions. Yeah, which is really interesting. So they were like open to questions. and like they would answer them and I was lucky to have that in that world um yeah but like just being able to realize like oh yeah so like there's not just one theological viewpoint like I remember one of the things as I was deconstructioning I got like a theology textbook because like women often aren't encouraged to read theology and just like reading the theology um realizing

And like, oh, no, there's Calvinism and Armenian and liberation theology and like queer theology and all these different types of theology. And this is part of the Christian tradition. It's not just like, oh, we're right and they're wrong. Like asking questions is literally part of the Christian tradition. And it's what most theologians are doing no matter what. Yeah, exactly. Religion even. Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny because like, and I don't want to like conflate like what I grew up with Judaism, but like there is a history of Judaism within Christianity and like literally like the rabbis are arguing with each other like in the margins. The Torah. Like this is a long tradition of people wrestling with this idea of God and asking questions and developing different like interpretations and points of view of things. things and like there you can have a good argument for something or you cannot have a good argument

for something but like arguing is part of the tradition right i think that's that's what became very fascinating to me once i kind of what i was saying maybe at the beginning of it where all of a sudden i was like oh like this is why it helps to have words to put in front of christianity when you're talking about it because there have been so many versions of it and there are versions of it kind of what you were saying. Like there is like queer theology. There's a queer theologist that I follow on TikTok. And I loved this.

I mean, the one that I followed her from was one where she was saying she was like, here's something I've learned. And she was like, there are perfectly, perfectly like understandable or whatever arguments about the Bible that can bring you to the conclusion that gay people are bad. and evil and there are perfectly well documented and like back up a bull uh interpretations of the bible that lead you to thinking that's not a sin and they're not they're not evil and she was like so now when i'm in conversations with people i am coming from my perspective of like yes there are both

so it does mean that you are actively choosing to believe one that decides they're evil if that's what you're choosing or you're choosing to believe a more loving and inclusive version of it. I thought that was so fascinating. Isn't Maddie Mae modal? It might be. I feel that I think I've seen that one. Okay. She's great. It really might be her. So I will, I'm going to look it up and put it in the in the show notes that we can have her credited. But that really helped me because I had a whole when this in 2024 when the election was happening, I had multiple moments where like there were people in my life that I knew. were Christian.

And I did not expect them to still hold some of the beliefs they held. And then it was very jarring for me for it to be like, it was like I had kind of gotten a place where I was like, I know that all Christianity is not as abusive as what I grew up in. Like I knew that. I had got to that part. And I was like, however, I know that there are some Christians who like, even if we don't agree on some very large blanket thing. things like I think they're pretty decent on these other things. And then I was like, oh, oh, no, okay. That's not the case. And it was so jarring for me. And I'm sure you've dealt with your own version of trust issues. Yeah. The thing that it does to me is it makes me scared that I'm not a good judge of

character. It was freaking me out that I hadn't caught it. So I was kind of having one of those moments where like my triggers had been pushed up. But then when I started reading more, it was like, oh no there's there are even version there are people who are like why would I want to use the Bible for hate why would I want to do that and I was like oh okay so there there's this whole other way to interpret it even yeah absolutely one one that I've actually read recently that I really enjoyed is called queer Christian reclaiming the Bible or faith and our place at the table by Brandon Robertson okay um and that that really lays out like this idea of queer theology really well. I've also found a lot of, I don't know, like, solace, like peace and this idea of liberation

theology, especially as a survivor of sexual and domestic and various forms of abuse. Right. But just from, like, liberation theology is this idea, like, we, we aren't here just to, like, go to heaven, right? Just to, like, believe in Jesus and go to heaven. But, like, we are doing the work as the hands and feet of God and Jesus to bring God's peace and compassion and restorative justice into the world. And it is not as we go on so that truth can be revealed. And I think there's a lot of peace in that as someone who has gone through abuse because accountability is part of that process.

There's also like womanist theology. I had a pastor who was a womaness pastor. And it has this really deep tradition in black women. I believe it came from the color purple, like this idea. Oh, wow. Yeah. A black woman where they know that like their struggles like are so real, but that they'll be able to find like the sense of liberation.

and joy and peace inside the idea of the Holy Spirit. And I might not be like saying that the right way, but like that's how it was explained to me by my woman as pastor. And I think that's so beautiful as someone who has gone through hardship in my life. Right. Even though we have experienced a form of the hardship, finding that joy and peace within the spirit of God, I think it was very resonant to me.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I need to, I want to learn some more about that. That is, yeah, she calls the Holy Spirit, her wild girlfriend. And I was like, I relate to that deeply. Oh, I love that. I love that. My, one of my co-hosts and friends, McKenzie Green has grown up, it kind of like AME, basically. But like even that was having it. That, that as a denomination was created because some, um, freed, freed black men and women from the south came up to the north and wanted to go to a Methodist church. And they were still getting kicked out of Methodist churches because while slavery was technically illegal, we obviously had a long period of Jim Crow in segregation. And so she, that basically she grew up AME, but it's, it's been an interesting experience talking with her about some things. because like she'll hear this stuff that was going on in my church and she's like what excuse me yeah and then she'll tell me like liberation theology is totally different right right and then

she'll tell me something she experienced and I'm like well I probably would have enjoyed being in church if it was more like that um but she has this great anecdote she's dating a guy who is a gamer and so she was like when he first told me that I was like but like you seem so cool um but what she was thinking of and what a lot of us think of when we think of a gamer dude especially in his like 30s like we're thinking like call of duty or um uh grand theft auto not that those can't be good but we're thinking of that type of gamer game and that type of gamer and his is like um like i can't damn it i can't even remember the ones that he plays His is like the, like, fun quests, allah.

He also loves, this is killing the point, but it's also not killing the point. But think of, like, more like fun quests in, like, colorful world building. Like, I feel so bad that I'm not even remembering it. Her point being, when she talks to people about religion and how even Christianity has a wide range, She's like, oh, you thought that I was into, that I was a gamer, but I am actually into these video games. Yeah. And I love that example because it does really help remind us that like, even with something

like that, we'll like quickly think of someone as something and they might be into something totally different. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what, that's what Christianity feels like more and more, the more that I learn about it. There was one book that I picked up when I first started deconstructing. It's called Where Goodness Still Grows by Amy Peterson. And it was really helpful for me because it goes through different things.

I think the first chapter is about lament. And we talked about like, I don't know. I think in Christianity there can kind of be this thing where we like spiritually bypass into joy. So like we we forgive and forget so that we can get back to a joy, but it skips all the accountability and the real grief. Yes. It happens during that time.

And the first chapter is talking about like this idea of lament. and how we talk a lot about like the psalms of joy but there aren't also the psalm like we don't talk as much about the psalms of like this deep grief um that the psalmist is experiencing and i think there there was so much resonance in me and that for me like i was deconstructing and my dad got arrested for the second time and i remember like reading the psalms again um yeah later like reading that book where goodness still grows while going to of the COVID. Oh my God.

Yeah. So like maybe we should back up. So. So 2020 like, and this was about like 15 years after my dad's first arrest. Like he got arrested again for the same crime. You probably kind of like thought it was mostly over at that point.

Yeah. Yeah. Like I thought it was mostly over. Like I was going to live live my. life and then he got arrested again. And I was living with my parents at the time. Like I had graduated school. And my mom comes in with this tray of Frosties. And she comes in with this tray of frosties. Like she and my dad had gone to a funeral in Tennessee. And my dad like got arrested there by the FBI. And my mom drove over mountains somehow had the wherewithal.

to get this tray of frosties. And then, like, call us all down and, like, while we're eating our frosties, like, say, your dad's not coming home. Oh, my God. That is, like, you can't make it up. Yeah, you can't bring a TV scene better. Too specific. Yeah.

Yeah. And, like, what was so interesting about that is, like, we couldn't be angry at my dad. So we were angry at the TV because this idea of, like, Fox News, news. Like during that time as Christian nationalism is rising, like just the presence of Fox News in our house where like those voices were just like filling all four corners of the house. And for me as like a by person, hearing those voices like all the time. Like it really makes you feel the shame and need to hide because you weren't living up to

like this good little Christian girl. ideal like conservative christian girl ideal like you like i i lost like my purity through like an encounter of like sexual assault like there there was so much shame during that time for me yeah just like this presence of like fox news as this representation of this culture that was now no longer welcoming to someone like me right um and feeling that anger because it was this disconnection from this culture that I grew up in, but also knowing, like, I can't stand, like, in this culture anymore, like, for a wider reasons, like, Black Lives Matter, like, Trump, like, like, all these different things, like, I couldn't stand in that culture anymore,

but just this reminder of, like, you are disconnected from this. And it's like, I don't want to be part of it. But, like, but it relates to your parents, right? Like, you feel the sense of rejection and like shame and just I remember like we were mad at the TV and my brother said like so does this mean that we don't have to watch Fox News anymore? Because that that's like what my dad represented in our family. I'm sure. The presence of the Fox News. But like literally my dad watched Fox News so much that the brand of the Fox News logo burned

itself into the LED screen of the television. So whenever we watch, like, anything else, like the Fox News logo, it's always there. Yeah, like watching us like the Eye of Mordor. Like, oh, my God. Oh, that is so like, that's not even art imitating life. It's like life imitating life. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Yeah, I talk a lot about the memoir that I'm writing right now. Yeah, I would too. It's kind of perfect. Yeah, but I don't know, like things like that, like, really like there was so much grief during that time right and I think there's a sense that like we can just spiritually bypass that and go to forgiveness and accountability but like for the first time in my life like I was like no I can't just give forgiveness like I can't just say like it's okay like I forgive you because that would be leaving myself open to abuse and I had to really honor that as a person

of like I deserve better like you should have not treated me this way like I cannot give you this reconciliation that you want and going through like this grief for like five five years like I'm still going through it in a lot of ways well and grief doesn't really go away yeah but learning to honor that grief in my life um and also also just having these books like to help guide me through that grief because I talk a lot about ambiguous grief. That's what I was going to ask. We don't talk a lot.

Yeah. We don't talk a lot about that and there was a short period of time where like and like I understand like my younger self like when you let go of a parent it's like such a hard thing like I don't think people are just letting go with their parents willy nilly like letting go of a parent feels like you know that movie I think it's called like four years. seven hours or something like that where like the guy is at the bottom of this pit and he has to like chop off his arm yeah like in order to get out like that's what it feels like and you have to like get to that point where really you're like I'm literally not safe here and if I am here then like I won't be able to survive and it was that process of that grief and coming to the recognition where I started experiencing all these like mysterious health issues um and I got to the this point where like I got into like doctor after doctor and they're like we don't know like

and I did a colonoscopy and on the night of the colonoscopy prep I always joke that's where I met my inner child because like for the first time like I was like I was put into this like deep parasympathetic state and that's when I realized like my inner child was a food and secure kid Yeah. Yeah. And never felt safe ever. Yeah, never felt safe. And putting myself in that parasympathetic state, like my body felt safe enough to bring that up to me. I realized like, oh, there's a deep part of me that's still grieving and still has this anger that they're processing. And that really encouraged me to basically like start that process of grief with my dad where I said like, hey, like, I need a break. I need to process this. But being like grief, I think we're so afraid of it. But it was like the most transformative thing that I've ever gone through. I bet. Yeah, there's some really good books that I picked up during that time.

One of them is called Soul Broken. Okay. And I think one of the interesting things about like grief is we talk so much about like grief after death. Yeah. But like there are so many different types of grief. Like there's and we're still experiencing grief now. like there's grief from trauma there's grief from COVID there's grief like grief from estrangement all these different sorts of grief um and that really walks you through like this

idea of ambiguous grief where there doesn't seem like there's a roadmap um so that was a really helpful book for me then another one was the artist's way um which i'm sure like a lot of people may have talked about before but like it was very helpful for me just to like make room for creativity in my life again where I'd kind of been cast in this eldest daughter role of being a caregiver. Which I was going to ask. Yeah, and making, making room for creativity in my life because I've always been a very creative person. Yeah. And also, like, getting those, like, I don't know, like getting all of, like, those things that had happened in my life out through the morning pages and writing them down. And there's something about writing that,

like helps those things flow out. And once we get through those, like that creativity can flow better. So another book that really helped me during that time was a book called Reregulated by Anna Runkle. Ooh. Yeah. And it's about recovering from childhood PTSD. Yeah, complex PTSD.

And she has this thing and it's actually taken from AA, interestingly. But it's this thing called the Daily Practice. and basically summarized it's like you write down all of your fears and resentments and why you have them so it's like i fear um i don't know dogs because like a dog um like pooped on my shoe like i'm just making one up but like i feel you yeah so like you're writing down all those fears and resentment and it really helps you identify, like, where some of your patterns come from. Yeah. As part of that, but it's, and then afterwards, like, you tear up, well, first you write down, like, it's something like,

I released these fears and resentments, like, to God, to the universe, like, whoever. And basically, you just, like, rip them up. And it was such, like, or burn them or whatever you want to do. I find ripping like easier. Yeah, put them in a shredder. And it was such a helpful thing for me during that process because it both helped me identify things in my life. And also like work through that process of letting those fears go so that I could move forward

into this transformative version of finding this true version of me that was underneath all those fears and resentments and the shame and the guilt and the grief. Yes. And find find that person underneath. me all that. I am adding this one. Yeah, it's so good. There's not, as you know, I'm sure, there's not a lot out there about like complex PTSD.

Yeah, there's not. For people who are wondering, all it means with complex in general is that it was a repeated event that you couldn't get away from. Yeah. And then PTSD in a quote unquote normal sense is like one specific event happens. to you, but you're able to leave and then hopefully eventually process it in a safe place. There's not a ton about it. So every time I see these, I read what my bones know recently. That was intense. That was so heavy. I mean, there were things in there that like my parents

weren't even that extreme. Like I wasn't fearing for my physical life in the way that some of her stories were. But when I was reading it, like I just. I kept crying. It kept sneaking up on me because I was like, I've never heard any else talk about this this way. It's not in the DSM 5 yet. I think that's a big part of why we don't have tons of stuff on it. But there are a lot of people that are like, hey, here's the difference between one event and repeated events. Or like it sounds like this one kind of approached it as childhood, PTSD. But yeah, I'm going to be listening to this one as well. It is, it's so hard to break out of those. beliefs of yourself. Yeah, but I think, yeah, just finding those books, like, really helped me through that period. So I did come to the point where, like, I went to a beach, like, at a lake near our house. Yeah. And I sat on that beach, and I wasn't really planning on letting things, like, go at the time or completing the cycle of grief.

But I remember, like, writing down this poem. because I think another thing when you're going through grief, like, I know several poets now. Oh, yeah, because, like, when I was grieving, like, that poetry just started flowing out of me during that time. And I think it's such a helpful thing in order to process those emotions. So, like, if anyone's going through grief, like, authors publish, they do, like, basically, like, 30 days of poems. And I think April on October. Yeah, where it's, like, a poem a day. and you're writing a poem a day and they don't have to be good poems like there's all levels in there

but it's just helpful to find that connection with like community like I meet with my poem poetry friends like every other week oh that's so fun yeah um and they're like all over the world too so it's like very very cool um yeah but anyway so I wrote this poem and it's this I am poem um and I think when we grow up in evangelicalism like there's so many things telling us who to be like you you are the eldest daughter you are the caregiver you are the um i don't know the the perfect child like you are the you are the scapegoat bad child like you are you are all these things you are all these labels but who are you um and when we skip so many of those steps have that identity formation like we really a lot of us really go into this process later of life of actually finding out who we

are and not who we've been told that we are because we aren't a worm like Like we aren't an Oreo, like, and that's a reference to purity culture. I'm sure you know, but for the listeners, like, you, you aren't this animate, like, object. You are a human being and you are uniquely you. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so we go through this process of actually finding out, like, who we are later in life and just being able to state that on paper. Like, I am all these things.

And these are, this is who I am. These are my values. Another thing I recommend people doing is like write down the five values that you have that you want to shape your life around. And then also write down like a list of all the things that little you loved. Yes. Like some things that like little me loved was like writing and illustrating children's books. Like little me loved like drawing and like riding your scooter around and all these things. And like pick one thing that like little you loved.

And that will really help you return to that younger self. But yeah, so I wrote this poem and I included it as like part of a letter to my dad. It was like, this is all the things that I am. I have found my joy and peace in my life. And I really related to the story of Exodus. And a lot of my things go back to the Bible because I think there's so. there's a lot of bad in the Bible. Like there are horrible ways that women have been treated.

I think there's also, I think there's also this thread of this idea of deliverance through hardship has been really resonant for someone like me who has been through abuse. There's also a lot of abuse in the Bible. It's about people. Yeah, it's about people. But people who have gone through deliverance, like the Israelites, like they were delivered out of Egypt. And I remember like feeling so much go over like, do I let my dad go? Do I not let my dad go? And just feeling this idea of like, I don't know, like a fiery sword. It's like I have delivered you out of this situation. Like you do not have to go back. You can claim the joy and peace that you have in your life. And that is a holy thing. And you don't have to keep on going through this. Like this is. you need to move forward. And having that permission of like,

I think there's this idea and evangelicalism is that we have to give into the suffering in our life. And like I've been through a lot of suffering, but there is deliverance. Like for me, like being delivered into that joy and peace and find that. And this idea of this joy and peace that we find, like there was a story that like my woman is pastor told.

And she talked about, like the three wise men like going to find like baby Jesus yeah and they bring like the gold frankincense and mur and then like when the the ruler at that time like was like oh where is this where's this kid um they're like they decided to protect the joy and peace that they have found and to not say anything and to have that permission to protect the joy and peace that I found in my life gave me the strength in order to say goodbye. So after that, I wrote down this, have you ever seen The Fox and the Hound? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So there's a line in that song that's really sad where like she drops the fox off from the middle of the woods. And at the end of that song,

it's the lines and in my heart and memory and there you'll always be. And I like, he was here to break our hearts like growing up yeah listening to that song like allowed me to cry and actually feel those emotions because like books has given me like a tremendous amount to understand like what i've been through going through that grief process like really brought to light like you actually have to feel your feelings because then you don't express them like they just don't know fortunate yeah you have to feel your feelings um yeah but like being able to cry and actually grieve during that time. So I made that into a little boat and I put that little boat like I went to the edge of the lake. There's this rock there and I sat down and it was sunset and I put the little boat in

and watched it like drift towards the sunset. And as I was sitting there like this fish jumped up. and it reminded me of like this version of my dad that I had known when I was younger that was like this fun silly person before he became like this angry like like person person that did that did all these terrible things like that that core person like that that silly fun person that I knew that I loved and just that feeling that permission of like it's okay you can get let go now like this part of me is gone like you can let you can get let go of that um and then there was this red-tailed hawk and it kind of like led my eyes to like the new horizons and then like when i look back the little boat was gone wow yeah it was cool yeah and i went home oh sorry oh no no no no

you're good i heard you said um on another podcast that it's kind of like well it's not kind of like you created a ritual and for yourself. So one of the really hard things about ambiguous grief or anyone who's had, who has decided to go no contact with a parent, which to, to your point, I don't think anyone chooses that for fun. Like, yeah. I know they're doing it willy nilly. Yes. I know that there are a lot of parents in no contact that think we're all choosing this for fun. no one does but to your point you don't have a funeral the person is still alive that's like when

I really create a faux what I like what soul broken cause a faux uneral like it's a fake funeral for the person yes that is that's so perfect because that's I understandably people who um have like either mediocre or decent relationships with their parents or great relationships are so understandably shocked when they hear stories of really anyone going no contact. But I'm saying it in my experience, essentially. And they don't quite understand how in some ways, once you've gotten to that point, it's a little bit of a relief to be able to kind of just let go of it. Because it's such a strange thing to talk about.

like yeah like for me personally it would be like even more with my mom it would be grieving a person that didn't even exist so it was like there was like the grieving who i got stuck with for parents yeah and then there was and then so then there was the grieving of like i don't want a relationship with either of these people yeah and then there's the grieving when you see like a daughter and a mom giggling together out in public and what you're really grieving is i'm I don't feel like I ever had like a mother and a father. I wish I had that sort of connection with this person. Yeah. So it is so complex. But I think that's like such a good example of yeah.

You can find things that help you get closure in like, uh, like a situation of non-typical grief essentially. Yeah. And I think that's what's so hard. Like it was it was like a five year grief process before I finally decided to let go. And when one thing that's so broken really. about. Yeah, I need to read that too. Is this idea of these two different types of hope. Like, I think what keeps us stuck in grief for so long, and I'm not

saying rush the process. Like grief is a slow process. Grief is meant like to be slow and to rest and that sort of thing. But so many of us can get stuck in this process of grief because we're relying on the external hope that the other person will change and they'll be like this person

that we have this idea in our minds of who they should be. Or if we explain. something well enough they'll understand yeah oh that's so real like you're just not a good enough communicator like i'm like i'll read enough nonfiction to explain it to them yeah no that was that was definitely a motivator like my nonfiction journey is like if i can explain it and become a good enough communicator then they'll understand and yes you're like oh never mind yeah no um i gained a lot in that process but like that wasn't the path yeah it was for us we gained stuff for ourselves yeah Relatable book lover lore.

Yes, yes. Yeah, but yeah, but just like understanding like, okay, there's this external hope, but moving to that internal hope. Like, what are the things I can do in my life to change? So things that I did in my life was, I'm not going to be in this role anymore as like this eldest daughter, caregiver person like I'm going to step into this creative self um like I don't know if you follow the enneagram but it was like yeah yeah but it's interesting because like there's a time that I would have called myself an enneagram too yeah um but I'm actually an enneagram four and a lot of the times in religious context like actually people who are enneagram fours who are like the creative

type they get cast as the enneagram too especially as the eldest daughter. So like a two can often be covering up like someone who's actually a four. So it's like sacrificial, but it's like for the church. Yeah, exactly. Not because it's your personality. Yeah. So it was like going from an enneagram two to an enneagram four.

But reclaiming that creativity in my life. And that was things that I could do in my power of things that I was capable and responsible. and like accountable for and it had nothing to do with the other person because they're on their own journey probably will never happen but like but like it didn't have to do with like coping that they would change that kept that kept be stuck there yeah um and really putting the onus of like this is work you need to do like I have done so much and I'm not willing to do this work for you yes um when I was growing up I was the one when I left the house and research Look at, I'm an eight.

Yeah. So there was a lot of like good girl stuff going on in me and thinking that I was a one, which is like all about like doing. Oh, man. The right perfect thing all this time. You have a passion planner? Right. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Oh, my gosh.

Hashtag, Pasch, fam. That even like, reminds me of all the like when you would go to like conferences and they'd be like, you know that feeling you have right. here you're going to carry it out into the regular world too and this passion isn't going to leave you and you're like this is collective effervescence bud like yeah i can't recreate this in my classroom yeah yeah but yeah so after after like my phone enroll yeah i went back home and i had strawberries and chocolate because when Proto and Sam goes to the top of like Mordor, they can't remember the taste of strawberries. And I gave myself that taste of strawberries again. I love that. Oh my gosh. See, that's the thing. Obviously, we've talked a lot about nonfiction. We've talked about Ergon

though and Narnia. Lord of the Rings. The fiction can. Yeah. I especially think, I mean, we don't actually have to qualify which one is is the most helpful that's my OCD that comes in but I think sometimes with emotional stuff like EQ the fiction can be the the huge gateway because you really are living in another character's being and so you really can process a lot that way yeah I think I think we have the power to process so much through our imagination because I think fiction and fantasy give us kind of a degree of separation like I found myself like I related a lot to Katna's Everdeen because like she she is like this I don't know she's a parental daughter is what she is. Oh absolutely. But just having like that fiction like I will never go and join the Hunger Games.

Thank goodness. A multiple time like I would probably not be leading a rebellion. But just like understanding like what I was going through through her eyes like gave me so like gave me someone to relate to and see myself in but it was just that degree of separation yes yes I think other books like the Handmaid's Tale the Testaments like they help us process things like crush a nationalism but they have just like this degree of like of separation between what's actually going on now so as we're actively experiencing this trauma. Yes. Like we can understand what's going on through that lens.

Mm-hmm. I agree. That one was crazy since the TV adaptation. Yeah. Opens with Roe v. Way being revoked. And obviously then that ended up happening, which is that's the whole thing with speculative fiction that I've talked with a couple authors about is like,

they write these beautiful books. And they're like, I wish it wasn't timely. like I wish that what I wrote wasn't coming true but um isabel j kim said it really well I interviewed her about a book called sublimation and she was saying uh like speculative fiction is writing about the present through the abstraction of the future essentially so specfic can feel really safe and then other times you're like wait a second this play is about us though yeah it's actually funny because like in middle school as like a lot of the stuff was going on with my dad and the sex offender registry

and stuff like I I found we talked about like finding a lot of solace and yeah these fantasy books but also I started like writing my own fantasy book then and like my background as a writer like I really like cut my teeth as a writer writing fantasy um and I I still have like a fantasy do you still have it yeah I actually still have it um so cool yeah I still have it from like middle school and I have another fantasy book that like I'm working on the side as a side project. Oh my gosh. The memoir that I'm working on is taking like priority right now. Yeah.

But yeah, but I like cut my teeth as a writer at doing this fantasy work. And then also learn more about nonpiction later on. Yeah. But that like my first book was kind of a Narnia's like portal fantasy world. And like the. the other fantasy that I'm working on. We'll see if it sees the light of day. But like it's kind of like a,

I don't know if you heard of the Irish Otherworld. No. Okay. Yeah, there's kind of like this idea of the Irish Other World. Yeah, and like ancient Irish mist. Okay. Wow. Yeah, but like with both of those books, it was a way to process like what had happened to me like during that time yeah that fantasy

element gave me like a degree of separation right um for that so things like that were really helpful i also like watched a lot of like lora the rings on like my little portable DVD player yes yes i have one of like a lot of like the narnia series um yes but i remember like i literally as we were going through like all these difficult things it's family like the food insecurity like the not being able to pay for like essentials like heat and that sort of thing like having like the quote from like sam gamgee like i know froto it's all right by rights we shouldn't even be here but we are yeah it's like in the great stories mr froto the ones that really mattered full of darkness and danger they were but sometimes we didn't want to know the end because how could the end be happy

Yeah. Yeah. It's so important to have just stories in our lives, like in all kinds of forms. So tell me a little bit about deciding to write a memoir about all of this. I, one of my favorite quotes that I've said so many times on this podcast is be who you needed when you were younger. I want to find a way to write about my experience too kind of for that. So I'm intrigued to hear what kind of brought you to that decision. Yeah. So it started it started with like writing a short piece. And then I met with my friend about it.

And she was like, I was actually telling her the Frosty story. And she was like, you need to write about this. Like your story is both like, I don't know, like dark but also funny in a lot of ways. So like there's a lot of humor in my story and there's a lot of dark things about my story. But being able to combine the two so that it's like you can read it. Yeah. Yeah. It was really important for me.

And also just like because of the present moment that we're in. Right. I feel like it was a really relevant story to tell. Like as I was writing my proposal, like the media and relevant section, like I have to change it so often because there's a new like youth pastor being arrested like every week um literally yeah literally literally every week um but but things as i was writing it i kept on like saying like okay like why am i writing this and i think i'm writing it for little me yes um first of all because i want to be the voice um that she didn't have and i want to be the voice of these kids that we don't talk about um

who are living on the sex offender registry. The kids, it's like we talk about, we talk about the Duggers a lot. Yeah. Like, there was some, there was people checking it on my dad during that time. No one ever checked on the kids during that time. Besides that initial like CPS thing, no one was ever checking on the kids. And we don't have it built into our system. So it's like, as this becomes more prominent, like, yeah.

We talk about things like the Epstein files and that sort of thing. And there's so much blame put on women of like why they didn't leave. But what what resources are we giving them? Like there was 69 programs, I believe, cut for like, snap benefits and domestic violence resources and human trafficking resources by the Trump administration. And personally, I think that's by design. But seeing like all the tools that women need. to leave and have stability and safety that they can be relying upon like those are being cut so

now is the time to speak up because people need to know about these and kids deserve to be fed and have have medical care of women deserve to leave these violent situations um so that that's why that's why it's why it's why it's hard me to write it because i think if i if i can talk about it like it makes people feel less alone and we were talking about the shame like there is so much shame that you experience as a child has grown up on the sex offender registry because similar to what we were talking about with corporate punishment like you don't absorb like my parent did something bad you absorb like no one wants to talk to me because like I am bad and you know that you are your parents DNA and that I'm a suit I mean for me that comes up

And mine's not even that. I'm sure it's scary feeling related to people who did stuff like that too. Yeah. And there's so much to suss out. But like there. So as someone who has found my voice out of that, outside of that shame of what I've been through, I feel obligated now to help raise my voice to bring awareness to this thing that people just aren't aware of.

Right. Because there's so much silence and shame about it. And these women and children. and who are put in the situation where there's so much stigma where they are silenced just to survive because they're reliant on this person for like their their financial stability basically but also being put in this situation of abuse that's oftentimes like and not I don't know if I go as far to say endorsed I think it's some denominations definitely but like there like it's been you're like this good thing that like you you aren't divorcing your husband like you are helping through this addiction like there's it within the religion like you are like there just isn't accountability for that person where they can hide and not actually be accountable for their actions but at the same time we're encouraging women to have themselves and their kids in the situation also removing like the tools that they could

actually use to get out of that situation and have a stable life yeah and there and especially if it's within the context of a family that is in like fundamentalist Christianity or any high control religion the women have also probably grown up feeling like agency was never something for them yeah like complete agency like I learned that my body belonged to my parents my future husband totally and in order to serve like my future husband like I would need to serve God and if God said divorce is bad like divorce is bad it didn't matter if there was abuse and that's a relationship right but you never learned that I belong to me right and I think that's my like what I've

learned through all this is when you have that ability to be safe enough that you can form those identity steps that you missed yeah um growing up in that culture then you have the agency to be able to make those clear decisions for yourself. Right. And I think it is really powerful to see people who have found their voice and to be able to see your story within them and then see the path that they took so that it's easier for you to make it out of there because we feel so alone.

You do. And there's so much shame in feeling alone. But when we have that connection, it allows us to find a way forward and outside of it. That is what matters. Yeah. I have a tattoo that I sometimes now in my 30s think is cringe. And it says, I am my own. However, exactly what you just said when you finally believe like, oh, I belong to me.

At 20 years old, it was revolutionary to me that I could be my own first. No, totally. There are times when I'm like, oh, this is, it feels like, you know, it feels like a tattoo, a pastor's kid gets in their 20s. And then I'm like, but you were a pastor's kid in your 20s who had never felt. Like you had your own persona. It was so intertwined. Like the family line in our family when you messed up and messed up could be getting a B on a test was you've disappointed your mother, your father, and your God.

And you're just like, wow, I am a piece of shit. Like you just do because it's the whole you're an extension. You're an extension of your parents. Yeah. And so you're embarrassing them if you're not doing it. You're an extension of God and your light should be shining so bright that other people just want to come to church with you. Yeah. There's so much pressure about who you're supposed to be.

Yeah. And who kind of owns who you are. So yeah, I'm happy you're writing this memoir. I have not read any of it for anyone who is like wondering. I'm happy you're writing it. I think it's so important. My journey to understanding began with like, a Reddit forum when I was in college. And it was like raised by Narcissus was the subreddit. And all of a sudden,

I was like, oh, like, and it's just like you just Google one little thing and you're like, oh, this is what it is. So I think it's so important. I need to find my time to write about it. Even kind of like you're saying, even if it is short form, I know you have a substack. When I was early in it, I was blogging about my experience in therapy, my mom reached out and threatened to sue me if I didn't take it down. Oh my gosh. I was 20 and financially insecure and still had just like, I was still just scared in general. So I did take it down. And now I'm like, now I know of like, she probably couldn't have even taken it to court. Yeah. So I do want to get back to it for all the reasons you said. I think it's so important for other people to hear other people who've been through,

like especially with your parents like we were joking about you don't just decide you want to hate your parents one day yeah yeah and i and the thing is like i don't hate my parents like even now like i don't hate my dad i have deep compassion for my dad as as someone and he he's an abuse survivor himself like i have right compassion for him um he's also fully accountable for what he did oh And like I can set boundaries in order to keep myself safe. So I think you can have sometimes the most loving thing you can do is setting those boundaries and separating yourself and that person because it finally makes them. And maybe they'll never come to that point. But like it makes them like finally like see the impact of their actions right on their life.

So yeah. It doesn't mean they will respect your boundaries. Yeah. I'm not saying that everyone won't. So I'm not saying that everyone will. But you're also not a failure yourself if someone is like still not respecting a boundary. Yeah. I mean, I set several boundaries before then where I was like, here's my boundary.

Here's my boundary. And kept on crossing. I was like, okay, I need to remove myself from the situation. That's how it got for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there are some books that I'll mention as part of this.

Yeah. I love a good book recommendation. This one is a little bit more from the Christian perspective, but it was really helpful for me to understand because I think one of the things, like one of the last things my dad said to me is like, oh, well, like, I'm not evil. And I think that really keeps us in this cycle of like, well, like they aren't evil. Like they still have some good in them. Like there's still things that like we love about them.

But there's a really helpful book that I read called Safe People by Dr. Henry Cloud. and Dr. John Cousand. And it really separates and like, does this person have safe people traits or does they have like unsafe people traits? And everyone's going to be a mix of both, right? Right. But you can kind of see like, okay, like I need to be a little bit more on guard or maybe set some boundaries in order to continue this relationship. And it's really helpful for identifying that. There's another book for people who have gone through narcissistic abuse because I think narcissistic.

Racististic abuse has like turned into this thing of like anything could be a narcissistic trait. But there's two like very good books that have been really validating for me that I think take a really balanced view, but also focus on the victim and the situation. Because like there's so much like stuff like put on like understanding the narcissistic person. Yeah. But this like really focuses on the victim and the situation. So one of them is you're not the problem by Helen Billers. Katie McKenna. And if you listen to their podcast, it's called like the

Insight podcast. It is like the most validating thing because they get so angry over like the things that people send them. And like as someone who was never allowed to express that anger, it is like the most validating thing to listen to. I bet. And another one is it's not you.

Byramani, Derbysula. I really hope I pronounceing that correctly. It should be like I think it's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but her book is fantastic because it really focuses on the victim in the situation and it has some stuff of like understanding the narcissist but really shifting to like focusing on the victim and that so that they can get their way out of it. Yeah. Yeah, those are very helpful. It does.

It's like that double-edged sword where like I'm glad narcissism got some like traction in pop culture. but at the same time now there is a little bit like the boy who cried wolf like everyone wants to call everything gaslighting and like not everything is gaslighting guys yeah um but yeah it was it was weird like my parents kind of like being in therapy and getting their diagnosis is diagnoses and like 2013 and then like later it it has led to them thinking like oh it's just your generation re you using narcissism incorrectly. I'm like, no, they're also like, there's also actual narcissistic abuse happening as well. And yeah, I had not read the second book, but it really does help to have books that you can read and you can be like, okay, this is someone else talking about it. And these

are the similarities to like what I was experiencing. Yeah, absolutely. It helps. Yeah. Last one is set boundaries, find peace. Um, by. need your lover, Tuab. Love her. Yeah, she's fantastic. But her book about boundaries is really helpful as well. And just looking at boundaries is like, I'm not doing this bad thing to you. But like this is who I am.

And these are the things I need in order to continue a relationship. It's a really helpful reframe for that. Yeah. Yeah. I saw someone talk about it as a boundary. is the distance from which I can love you and myself at the same time. Yeah. And I'm like, that is how you have to start looking at it.

Yeah. And like when I first stepped away from my dad, like, yeah, I hadn't fully broken things off yet. But that process of grief was really developing that that sense of self and identity and seeing the things that like, these are my wants. These are my needs. These are the things I like as a person. Yes. This is like who my soul self is. And once you have that, like, writing down those values, like, you can set boundaries

in order to preserve who that person is. But especially with narcissistic abuse, like, you can't stay in that situation and do it. You need a step away so that you can do that soul work of finding that identity because you can't do it while you're in relationship with that person. Like your body does not feel safe enough in order to do it. So you need to step away in order to process that. Like in my case, I made the decision, like, there were several letters that went back and forth during, like, that year. But I made the decision to step away because of the contents of those letters.

Yeah. And some things that came up. But, like, that may not be everyone's journey. You might be able to, like, do things like gray rocking or other ways of dealing with that person or in order to stay in relationship. But, yeah, there are multiple ways of doing. There are. I wanted to bring up, because you said, like, your body when it's still in relationship with that person isn't going to, like, be able to feel safe enough to even process it. And you mentioned you had some health issues that doctors couldn't figure out. I, as well learned that I love to somatize my feelings, which can mean, like, that you like to intellectualize them and not feel them. And then they come out in your body. other places, which is cool. And I also heard you talking about like you got it to Reiki as well. So yeah, you know, we've been talking for a bit. But can you talk about the body part of it a little

that you learned about? Because I think not all of us, not everyone realizes how much it gets into your physical body. Yeah. So I think especially for like us book lovers where like we see like so much of ourselves and books and like books are like such a powerful tool for understanding like what happened to us. They can also be a powerful tool for like intellectualizing our feelings. Uh-huh. Yes. Yeah, which is like my story.

Like I intellectualized things so much and I could like, I don't know. Like I'm not a therapist, but I can tell you a lot of like therapy stuff because I read so many therapy books. Same. Yeah, but just like getting to the point in my body where there was so much pain. and there. And I just started experiencing like, yeah, just various health issues where I'd go to the doctor and they'd be like, oh, like, nothing's wrong.

I was like, well, like, I gained 30 pounds. Like, like, in like six months. Like, what's happening? Like, this test says that, like, my, like, there's metabolic stuff going on. Like, there's these different things. Like, yeah. So, like, there, basically I fell into this understanding of like the body when it doesn't process those feelings, when it doesn't feel safe enough to process. It often keeps them inside the body.

And Reiki was such a helpful tool for processing that where I went to a Reiki practitioner for the first time when I first started the grief with my dad. and it was a powerful experience because he was talking about two things so the the throat chakra is often about like finding your voice and that when I work on women like that is often the place that is like the most block because there's so much in our society like that silences women's voices um which is why and do the work now because our voices are so powerful together And also there was like an imbalance in the sacral area and that's often where in the Reiki practice like where your emotions live, your inner child lives. And also like your sexuality often. So for people who grew up in purity culture especially, like there can be a lot of tightness in like the soaz area.

also what I've learned is most people who have jaw problems have hip problems and hip problems have problems for all these reasons they're all they're all connected and it's like I'm someone who believes in modern medicine but like the modern medicine like often treats the body as like separate parts yeah but like it's so interconnected like my my pelvic fourth physical therapist actually told me this where like you're if you have like tight calf muscles like often that connects to the jaw area. So if you have TMJ, if you're stretching out your leg muscles, like that often helps improve. Wow.

Isn't that wild? I like with a cramp in my, like it was probably a Charlie horse two nights ago in my calf. And I was like, what the hell? And now I'm like, hmm, okay. I had an incredible amount of like rib pain. Uh-huh. And my back. Yeah.

And that's often like associated in the Chinese medicine approach with like liver cheese stagnation. And that's often related to unprocessed grief and anger. So learning to process that grief and anger through somatic practices really help with that pain in my body that was there. Things like with the sacral area that were in balance because I was I was working so hard basically to like dissociate from like the pain that I was experiencing. experiencing like yeah that's associated um that's the same area as the kidney area which in traditional

chinese medicine is associated with fear um yeah so like things like that lower back pain like it can often be like fear um either from has traumatic event or inner inner child like causing that pain in our body or like something that we're going through now so it really brought me to this place where we talk about purity culture a lot and like you learn not to trust your body like your heart is deceitful like don't trust yourself don't trust your body but it really brought me to this place where I was able to trust myself and my intuition by listening to my body because I like it also says like your body is a temple like I think our body is how like things are communicated to us and I think that's a beautiful design of being able to pay attention to the body understand like

if I'm feeling grief, like my right shoulder is probably going to be tense. And being able to identify like where, where different things are and the body helps me recognize like, oh, this is something that I need to address and reconnecting to that after so long of not listening to her. Because our bodies are so wise. So like becoming a Reiki practitioner was this way of reconnecting to my body because it allowed me to go. over each part of my body yeah um and whether or not you believe in chakras or not it's like neither here or there but like i i think like pain pain does live in different parts of the body and it was a really helpful exercise understanding where it lives in order to identify it so that i could address it um instead instead of ignoring it or spiritually bypassing it like all those different things um so yeah

So that was, and that was a deeply embodied practice for so often we're asked to spiritually bypass the situation for the first time. Like I was actually accessing those emotions so that I could process everything. And it was like literally like it was like there was a gorilla on my back. Yeah. And like all the weight like that was there and just being able to go through layer by layer by layer and process those things was very powerful for me. Oh, I bet. Yeah, there was. You know, you get to help other people.

Yeah, now I get to help other people. Like, I wouldn't be doing this work otherwise. Like, it allowed me to understand myself better, like, literally be reconnecting with my body. So that I could be able to ground myself enough where I am now in order to help other people find their voices. Yes. Well, that is so cool. Like, you have, you have the ratings. key stuff. I, um, one of my good friends is a masseuse who has like sports medicine,

creditations, but also rakey. And I started seeing her, I don't know, like four or five years ago. Um, and yeah, she's had some similar, some very similar stuff to us. So I've been learning a lot about like I brought up the connection between my jaw and my hips that have hurt probably my whole life. Like I've had pain there forever. I mean, and it comes and goes a little bit, but it's, as I'm sure you've experienced, it is one of my ongoing things that I will get to work on in my body. But I do love that like you're kind of writing from a perspective of wanting to help people because of what you went through. And even your Reiki can kind of be an extension of that. Yeah.

Yeah. I think what writing and other mindfulness practices forces us to do is there's kind of this thing. and evangelicalism in particular, I'm in my name of Bradstrokes here, but like where you're like you're constantly working. Like you're not saying no. Like you're constantly doing all these things. And it's part of like a broader thing in our culture, right? Like this capitalist society where like we're always moving.

We're having our fast food and that sort of thing. But like that embodiment as well as that grief forces you to slow down. So like when the Reiki master was like you have a. imbalance in your sacral area like that that's an imbalance of the water element um and really it's from like that that overworking part of us that just like go go and it like it generates like so much like heat inside the body um so like really it really forced me to slow down and really listen to my body and it's like okay your body is tired you need to stop now like you you need to take some time to like do your rikey practice and feel your body and slow down

because I think when we allow ourselves white space in our lives, like that is often more productive than just to keep on going, going, going. I know. And the way we have to, if you're a workaholic, that's how you sell it to yourself. You're like, this is more productive. Yeah. And it's funny because like in Colts, right? Like they keep people busy constantly.

Uh-huh. But like when you do have that time to read a book, to do, to like sit alone with your thoughts, to write, to do creative work, to have time to process that, then like that's often more transformative because you can actually get out of that situation when you make time for that in your life. Yes. Yeah. It's, I love to intellectualize. and it's all useful, but Bruce just completely rolled off of his bed. I just watch that happen. I, it can, and it can still help, obviously.

Having all this information helps, but you also have to feel things. And I'm like, damn it. And it's worth it every time I do. No, absolutely. Yeah. And one thing that's really helped me is, like, you want to make sure that you're in a grounded place. And my mean like one thing that I do as part of grounding is like sitting down and imagining like roots going into the soil. And that's been really helpful because that makes it easier to process

like the things higher up like the emotions, the grief, like the intuition, the voice stuff. That's so important for your practice. And then when you do access those emotions, remembering like that emotion will probably only last 90 seconds right yeah and then they say it like a lot less scary because it's not like you're going to get like like do it in a safe place do it with therapy but that emotion is probably going to last 90 seconds yeah um and if you're with a therapist um especially a somatic like trauma-informed like practitioner um or iFS family systems like there's There's a variety of modalities around there. But especially if you're with someone, like being able to co-regulate with someone, like,

I did safe and sound protocol recently. And like I just sat in my partner with a room and like cut like colored during that time and do like watercolor painting. Like art can be so regulating and also like co-regulating through connection with other people. Yeah. That can make things a lot more like manageable as you work through stuff. Totally. Totally. Well, I feel like we could probably talk all day. Yeah. But, yeah, I've really enjoyed this. I'm, I will be, if you need beta readers, I will read fantasy or memoir.

So I'm just throwing that out there. But I will also, obviously, I'm very excited. It always sounds like the wrong word when you're talking about a memoir about trauma, but I am excited to read it. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'm excited for that to happen. Where can people follow you to stay up to date? I know you have a substack. You have all kinds of stuff going on. Yeah.

So I have a substack called quips and confessionals. So it is for recovering church kids or people making their way out, survival mode. Especially for people coming out of like evangelicalism, deconstruction, that sort of thing. I always try to add some humor into it. Like I think having humor in the mix is so important to like be able to process like what we went through. And also like I think when we were able to laugh at something, it takes out power's teeth and the power that it had over us. Yep. You can also find me on Instagram at Kate Johnson writes and also at TikTok threads.

Yeah, all those places at the same handle. Yeah. Well, I will put links in the show notes for everyone. You guys definitely need to go follow. And thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me.