Bookwild - Analyzing Agatha All Along with Halley Sutton SPOILERS

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

THIS EPISODE CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR AGATHA ALL ALONGA couple weeks ago, Halley told me she watched Agatha All Along and loved it, which lead to me binging it in one week. We reconvened and broke down all of our favorite parts of this (dare I say) perfectly written show! Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week, I mean, people are probably going to know because they will have seen the title. But I can't remember if you did it on air or if it was when we were off air. But Hallie mentioned to me how good Agatha all along is, was whatever the right term is for that. And I had been worried that it was super musical. And I always want to be very clear. I have no judgment for people who love musicals. And I wish I did too. technically I'd love to enjoy them. It takes me out of the story almost all of the time when someone

just bursts into songs. So that was why I hadn't like made time to watch it. And thankfully, I was able to text you because you like mentioned it to me one time we were recording. And then I googled it a couple days later. And it was like, it is very much a musical show. And I was like, oh. And then I was like, maybe I should just ask Callie. And then you're like, not really and now I'm like do not always trust Google people yeah there is music in it and like a song plays a very but yeah I would not I didn't even when you texted me that I was like a musical like of course not and then I was like oh they do sing but it's all in service like it's not a musical the way you would think of like I have feelings so I'm going to express it via song it's like one song that like

matters to the plot that comes back in different ways totally yeah and I don't think I think if I'm, I think you don't even hear the song in the first episode because I think I remember texting you and being like there wasn't even a song in the first episode. I'm going to be good. Totally. Because like if it was to be musical, musical, there would have been songs in the first episode. Yeah. No, it's not like that for sure. So I'm so glad you watched it.

I loved it. Like so many things that we will obviously get into that I loved about it. But what was the other thing that had just passed through my mind? I don't know. It's gone. But I ended up loving it tremendously. So we will be talking about spoilers. We are going to be like talking, talking about it.

And technically, if you haven't seen Wanda Vision, we may talk about some spoilers from that because this technically takes place after it. So you have been warned. Consider yourself warned. Yes, for sure. I know. I was thinking of that too. is I was thinking about our conversation.

I was like, there's no way to not spoil it if we're going to talk about it. Like there's two, it's too woven into the fabric of the whole story. Like all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.

So you came to Agatha all along, anxious about it being a musical. My side of the flip is that I like you having no judgment for people who like musicals, but it's not really your jam. Marvel stuff is not really my jam. And I've seen a few. I watched Wanda Vision. Like I watched, I think the original Iron Man.

Like I've seen some of the pieces. But as like a cultural phenomenon, I've kind of let it pass me by. And now there's like too much. I'm like, I'm not going back and watching 154 hours. Right. Like I'm not doing it.

So it's just, so I was kind of came to the show a little bit reluctant, and myself. I had watched Wanda Vision because I like Elizabeth Olson and I had heard so many good things about like the innovative format of the show and I saw Agatha all along and I was kind of like, I don't know, but I love Catherine Hahn. And then like, I think by the end of the first or second episode, I was like, this is one of the best. I like, to me, it's one of my favorite things I've seen on TV in like years. I love that. Yes. It will, it has staying power for me. It will like always be in that. I'm like the kind of person to get.

stressed out saying some things in my top 10 because then I'm like what if it's not but the sentiment it will stay in my top 10 forever that is funny though that we came to it a little apprehensive but for separate reasons and then both of us are like this is amazing so good so I mean also like you're saying Elizabeth Elizabeth Olson though Catherine Hahn Aubrey Blaza like all the all the wonderful women so she has made it I mean the the staff cast the stacked woman front cast a bag it's all along just like how much did you love that too just like yes that's what i i was totally thinking about that yeah because we have there's obviously like teen who is a teenage boy um but you're yes you're so aware when you're watching it that like we are

i almost said in a woman's world and then i just heard katie perry's terrible that's been all over the internet. But we are in a world of all women for the most part for this show. And we won't even go near space because we don't have time. Yeah. We're going to, I'm going to let that one bypass me. Although we probably have our own episode we can talk about with what happened there. I think we could.

Oh, my goodness. I don't think anything really changed for feminine. or space exploration. That'll be my like, no, no. My bottom line. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We just won't go near that. We're going to have fun today and talk about covens and witty women and wonderful writing. Yes. Yes. I loved it.

Uh, yeah, where should we begin? That's what I was going to say. So I know you have, you said you had some kind of like detailed notes, maybe about what you liked. Or maybe not. Okay, you flatter me. I did bring some notes. So I think we could like trace it story by story. But the thing that I'll say that I think we'll have to like spend some time on packing,

which is part of it too, is just how well crafted the show is in that it's all there from the jump. And I know that that's like the beauty of a self-contained narrative of like 10 episodes or whatever it was. but I think it was nine. I think it was like a random number. I think he was nine. Maybe nine for like, I don't know. Is that like a witchy number? That would be cool if they did that.

But like, maybe it was. But there you, it has such high rewatch value. And I say that as somebody who's watched it like two or three times now. Because you go back and you see where they've seated all of these things that are going to pay off. And it just blew my mind as a viewer,

how satisfying it was to get those payoffs. And it made me think as a writer, you know, I think we're all. trying to do that, but what are the ways that we can like learn from how they did it to make our own writing more satisfying in that way? Because it was deeply satisfying. And I truly, and I think you're probably the same way, it is, it's not impossible. But as somebody who reads a lot and watches a lot, I am very rarely as surprised by I was as some of the like earned payoffs. I don't know if we

would call them twists or reveals. I know we had a whole episode about that. But like, there's definitely a twist and some huge reveals. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I would say the road is. But there's at least one that counts as a twist. Right.

I would say the road is a twist. And then the Catherine Hahn backstory is a reveal. And they were both so satisfying. And so I didn't see that. But it makes so much that. Like at once when you get it, you don't feel cheated. You feel like, you know. And like that is so hard to pull off and they do it twice.

And I was just like. Yes. Amazing. I agree. And when you were saying to like what we can like even learn from a writing perspective, there is something that like when I started writing, um, the book I'm working on right now, um, which I did a dog walk with like just chill ASMR sounds on. I didn't listen to a podcast.

I'm a present queen. And I actually had some like breakthroughs for my like third act. So that was good. But when I started writing that was when I also started thinking about like, how do you craft a twist? Because when you're in it and you're writing it, at least what I've just realized so much is it is like so hard as the person writing it to know if like the breadcrumbs are just like glaringly. obvious. Like, is everyone going to know? Which I also think, and I know a lot of authors do write for the twist, and that's cool. I don't think, I don't know that I always want to completely write for just the twist either. But when I started thinking about, like, how do you do

it? And I think for me, or like the ones that I find satisfying in either TV or books is there has, like, the other things that are going on have to be just as compelling. as they are. Because that's kind of, that's where I've landed. You need to like be so invested in the story that is still true even when the twist happens that like then there's a twist. You're like, oh, I was enjoying all of this like tension and suspense or whatever so much that I hadn't even thought to like think about this aspect of story.

And that is what I feel like Agatha all along does so well too. I think you're so right. It's that sleight of hand. It's that look at this. And then this is the other thing that's been there all along, but we didn't see it. Yes. Or I'm sure some people saw it. And some people who maybe knew, this was another thing, because I don't know the Marvel lore.

And like there, I'm sure there are people who knew some of what was coming. But I did not. And the, I'm totally with you. And I think you put it really well. And that's really smart. It's like the A storyline that we're following has to be so compelling, which is what it is in Agatha, too. The quests that these characters are on, the like challenges of the road. So that the question of what even is the road is the big question that you're as a reader worrying on.

You're looking at this other stuff. And then this is what happens. Yeah. And I think the other thing that's kind of hidden within all of that or some of what makes that part, function is like even in that first episode when teen is like we need to get to the road or whatever he's saying it to her and she's like you how do you even know it's real it's not real yeah and so then it then it kind of sets it up as a like I don't know what storytelling trope this is but that the feeling of you're like you're in the story and you're like no one has believed or this mythical thing

only certain people get to experience. And we don't even know if it's real. And so then when it is real, I say quotation marks, you're kind of thinking it's that kind of story where it's like, oh, we did find this mythical thing that has like been a part of this world for centuries or whatever. And so then you think like, oh, this is a fun story because they actually found this really rare thing. Right.

And then what you were kind of alluding to is each episode, once they're on the road, of even dives into like each different characters or like the different things they've struggled with. So you even kind of are buying into this idea of like they're growing on the road. The road helps them grow or whatever. So there's like all these things that have you so invested and thinking it's a story going that way. And then I think I think we also feel like maybe Agatha is a better person now too. And so the other big sleight of hand, in my opinion, is that you feel like we're maybe going to see Agatha like learn the value of friendship and like grow as a person. And so she feels more like an anti-hero maybe.

And then by the end, you're like, oh, she was the antagonist the entire time. And that's such a cool flip. That is a cool flip. Totally. And I even have thoughts among there too where I do have some like there's also like one of the things I loved is that she is a villain and they both make her compelling and there's spots where you see her humanity. But she's never sanded down. You're never like like to the end she might throw somebody else under the bus. You know, should we do like a brief recap of the overall structure of it for. Yeah. Yeah. So we pick up with Agatha and I had kind of forgotten this and then I had to like go back and look at notes.

We're actually in the structure of Wanda Vision, right? Because this picks up right after Wanda Vision. So the show starts and it looks like a true crime procedural. And it's not a very good one, which is funny. I had a friend who like, they stay with it so much. They do. And I had a friend who stopped watching the show because she was like, it's not good. And I was like, but that's the point.

You don't like, you have to get like 20 minutes. Yeah. And so she's like living within this true crime procedural, which becomes eventually clear that she is still under Wanda Maximoff's spell. And this is the reality that she's like, like the TV reality that she's living in is this like bad Nordic noir. And it is so satisfied when that comes back later when we have an episode from teens perspective. She meets this boy who's in her house. He's trying to steal something. In the show, she thinks he's some like in the.

true crime show that she thinks she's in. She thinks he's this villain, but he's really just a boy who's in her house because she's Agatha Harkness, the Great Witch, and he's looking for answers about who he is and all these different things that we'll find out later. But it's so rewarding. You see it and so funny when you see an episode through his eyes and she's like questioning him like she's, you know, the CSI detective that you get to see the flip side of like what had been going on. And they like make her the like messy female detective. Like all of the. stereotypes like her hair messy she's kind of gross she has like I swear she has grease stains and she's just like so gruff and you're like oh boy totally like has this tragic backstory which we do come to

find out is true and but then um totally and she's been stuck there for three years that was like the other thing they let us know once she realizes she's been in that world right right and so she frees herself she meets this boy who's in her house teen she calls him teen he can't tell her who he is, which is, I think, the first thing that intrigues her. And I did a little bit of research before we got on this call. Hold on. Let me pull up. And I found some things from the showrunner. A quote about Agatha. And it's, this was, I thought, really interesting. It's never her aim to hurt someone. She doesn't hurt anyone just for the fun of it. She's interested in two things. She's interested in what serves her and she's interested in witchcraft, specifically enormously powerful witchcraft.

And the thing that I think is so relevant about that is that that's what intrigues her with teen, the boy, is like the second that she sees that he's under the spell that she can't break. She's like, what are you? Who are you? And like, no, I'm interested. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. And it is that also does explain the bit of.

of saving grace that makes us still interested in Agatha near the end is what you're saying. She's not malicious for the sake of being malicious or like hurtful because she enjoys being hurtful. She's just selfish. Yeah. Yeah. Just selfish. Absolutely. If it serves her, she'll behave however she wants, but she's also not out to just like go on a rampage for no reason. And I think as a viewer and as a writer, that's what makes her like such an interesting character because she cannot be slotted into any, like, she's not always going to choose to do the bad thing. She's not going to have some, like, turn around and choose to do the right thing. She's always going to do the thing that serves her.

So she is a true renegade because you do not know what she's going to do at any given moment. And that is so interesting. And I'm jumping way ahead, but it fits what we're talking about so well. Even in the kiss of death moment where she does kiss Aubrey Plaza's Rio to save. teen and we're like, damn, does she actually feel bad about something? And she comes back and she's like, I took a calculated risk. I thought I could maybe be a ghost. It seemed worth it. So like, it was not about him. So even there, it was like, I was like, oh, did they actually want her to grow? And then a few scenes later, you're like, oh, no. No, totally. And I also think, so I agree with you on that. I do think

she has affection for teen for a couple of reasons. I think she, I think she, like the same way that like, she was more fascinated by Wanda and sort of like wanted what Wanda had. Like she wasn't a she was, Wanda's antagonist, but she also wasn't like, she's not like I hate Wanda and I want to take her down. She's sort of like interested in her. And I do think,

and I was reading this, the same review with the showrunner, she was talking about how, uh, Agatha is a covenless witch who both sort of likes being on her own, but sort of wants a coven. and by the end of the show, she's sort of found that with teen,

even when she's a ghost. And it makes me think of there's this whole part. So, okay, so another thing we haven't mentioned, but presumably you're here because you've watched this, is there is the witch is the ballad of the Witches Road, or what do they call it? The Witches Ballad, the Ballad. I think the Ballad of the Witches Road.

Yeah. And it's the thing that witches use, this is what we believe in the beginning. It's the thing that witches use to summon the road. road. And there is a whole digression. Agatha. So the road is supposed to be this mythological place where if you follow the road and you complete its challenges and you get to the end, you will get whatever you desire. And it's so interesting because watching it, I mean, there's so much to talk about here. We're going to be here for 17 hours. So if you complete the road. I don't have anything for

four hours. So I do in an hour and a half, but we can do it. So the, uh, So if you complete the road, you're going to be able to get your heart's desire, basically, whatever you want. And Agatha is the only known survivor of the road. And so she is somebody not to be trusted, but she's also looked at as an expert. So the way you summon the road and teen wants to get to the road. That's the reason why he's come to Agatha. He wants, he doesn't, he has this question about who am I. And he thinks the road will help him figure out pieces of his past that he doesn't totally understand.

along the way they draw in a bunch of a coven of different witches, including one poor neighborhood woman who doesn't make it on the road very far. No. Who was a delight. What's her name? The actress's name. The actress's name. It's the mom from that 70s show.

And she's so adorable. She's so good. She's so Deborah Joe Rupp. I don't know what part of my brain found that, but that was her name. It did. So they pulled together. this coven, they're going to get on the road. Our first clue that something is off is that Agatha seems as surprised as anybody when the road appears, which is like very subtly done, but if I think

you all, you all clock it, but you kind of forget about it, or at least I did for a while. So then they get onto the road, which is sort of like an inverted version of the yellow brick road, and you're met with all of these different challenges that the witches have to come together to complete. But there are certain things that happen along the road and people look to Agatha as potentially the person who might know. And so there's a question about if you have to complete the road, how many people have to complete the road in the coven for it to be complete? And they say one interpretation of the ballad is coven true and Agatha says coven two. And we'll find out later that she actually does know what she's talking about in this instance. And by the end of the show,

she is in a coven of two. Of two. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so good. I know. And like it again, because everything you just said, I didn't pick up on it. And it's like there are there are still like books that will surprise me a little bit or,

but kind of what you're saying. There's also plenty of books that I still really enjoy. Yeah. But I have a few, a few working theories, like maybe two or three working theories. And then it turns out to be one and that doesn't ruin it. But like, nope, wasn't. Because I think even with you, she looks surprised when it works. And I literally was just like, she's already been acting like these witches are below her.

So I, my brain even kind of was like, oh, she was surprised it actually worked with these witches. You rationalize it. You for sure rationalize it. And there's a couple of other things that later you find out is like, like, so at first it doesn't work. And she starts berating the other witches. And I watched it and was like, well, that's not nice. You know, like, I did not see it as. Yeah, that's what confirms that belief.

You're right. Right. And like, I did not see it as the clue that it will turn out to be later up to what's actually happening. I was just like, what a strange. Like, even I tagged it in my brain. I was like, that's a really strange reaction. I wonder why she's doing that.

Why does she need to put these witches, which is down? But then you move so swiftly onto the road that you sort of are like, it's there, but I didn't, I didn't get it. You know. Yeah. And one of the which is like, you're just trying to make me angry so you'll get my power. And I was like, oh, okay. cool, whatever.

That's, I think, I think you're right. And I think if we're looking at this as a craft level, I think you've pointed out some really important things, which is that you have multiple layers of reveals, right? We have who is teen, who put the sigil on him, what's happening with these women on the, the Coven on the road, like how are they getting their powers back? Are they going to get their powers back?

There's all these things that you're watching for that you're getting these reveals to that keep you from looking at the, like your brain is already, processing these other things so you're not looking for the big reveal. And I think one, and I think you're right. Like the giving us a reason for why Agatha would be doing that in that moment doesn't make you look for the deeper truth of it, which is like connected, right?

She is trying to make her mad to blast her with her power so that she can get. That's how Agatha has power. She steals it from other witches. But you don't look for the thing that it actually is because you, you're sort of like, oh, I think it's this thing. Yeah. And you and I had a conversation via text when I was in the last like three episodes, I was texting you like all caps for like two hours. But I was like, I was like with teen, I was like because I wasn't even thinking he was going

to be related to Wanda Vision, it was like my brain just wasn't even. It was like the fact that we had no idea about that made it even more like you're not looking to understand things. And I saw, this was in a subreddit and I was like, this explains it really well. This person was saying, like, I didn't see anyone in here who predicted this. Instead, we were all focused on who was teen. Is he Nicholas Scratch? Who is Nicholas Scratch? Who is Rio? We're Rio and Agatha on the road together. What's their backstory? And they're like, it was the first time that those were kind of viewed as red herrings because they make us think those are the central questions of the show. And then when they were resolved, there wouldn't be any twists.

And instead, those were not the important questions. But like, they'd given us so many to chew on. Yes. That like my brain just wasn't even going in another direction. And the other cool thing that you see once they get on the road is like each challenge kind of takes place in a house or a build it. Like there's there are these structures where each one takes place. And their outfits change. And it's like they're in another century or maybe a TV subgenre as well. And I remember even texting you like when I first started it. I was like, I love that they still did this part from Wanda Vision because it's fun and I love this. And I love seeing different genres and making the actresses like different. And I saw someone in the subreddit that was like, we were literally all like, oh, this is just kind of hacky.

They just wanted to keep using the Wanda Vision stuff. And none of us were like, is this a hex? Totally. I was, I am obsessed with that part of the show. And that was what, that was what was so satisfying to me before I knew the reveals. I loved the idea very quickly, because we all understand this in our cultural lexicon, you're like, oh, the witch's road, yellow brick road. It's like the dark inverted side of the yellow brick road, right? Dorothy's on a quest on the yellow brick road, trying to get to Oz, trying to get back home. This is the witch's side of it. It's the darker side of it. And I was like, what a cool, innovative. thing. But it's not just a cool, innovative thing. They're actually doing, like, they're using our knowledge of these sort of cultural touchstones to hide what the Witch's Road actually is, which is exactly that. It is a projection that teen has created. Sorry, I'm spoiling it. We're 26 minutes in. We've been talking about the road not being real. I know. So, so you find out that he is Wanda Maximoff's son. And like Wanda Vision, in which she created this. whole projected reality that people lived in that were different TV shows because those were

her cultural touch points. He has created a version of the road that is about his understanding of what witches are. And it is our understanding of what witches are. So at times it's a little trite or at times you're very much like, oh, it's the Wizard of Oz. But that's because we're all in his brain. My brain blew when I figured that out. It was amazing. And I did not figure it out ahead of the show. I didn't either. Yeah, it was when they revealed it to me that I was like, what? You did what? Wait, what? I know. And like that the episode, I think it's Patty's characters episode when they are all even, I know, a whole episode though. I loved her character so much. Me too. We're going to have to talk about that episode in detail. To have her displaced in time was so

creative. Yes. But they're all dressed up like different witches in that one too. So we had, I think Agatha's even She's The Wicked Witch of the West Yeah Yeah with one I can't I can only think of Glinda Elphaba

Elphabuk Good Lord And yeah And then even when I was watching I was like this is so cool They're just like playing with the tropes And like what we think of witches Like didn't even go past that thought

Same same It was amazing And you're right They like it's like a So presumably a lot of people who watched Agatha all along watched Wanda Vision. And so you understand the structure of what that show is doing.

And it is amazing that they're doing it to us again. That you would have seen it. You would know it. And you still miss it even as we, like they do make the reveal earlier than that that he is, the teen is actually Billy Maximoff, that he had been born somebody else. But when Billy dies, when Wanda Visions puts apart,

his soul goes into this body. but so but I still didn't see that like the projection of the road but then if you go back and watch it Catherine Hahn does see it and that like was one of the questions I think of the show like you say she feels this closeness and this bond to teen you see it even as she's sort of gruffly pushing it away and so you sort of think and even Rio who's Aubrey Plaza addresses it very directly like he's not your son but you wonder how much she thinks he might be her son or is this like a sunlike character but then you discover she says something later on like if you you know if you weren't a maxim off all of this wouldn't have been so dramatic like she's known from the jump yeah that this is who you are and this is what you're doing yeah so well done yeah i think because i think that's episode too where it kind of ends where she's like you're so much like your mother yeah still didn't still didn't get there because you're like does she she talking about is she talking about is it arrene's kid or rio's kid or rio's kid or she's whatever. She even tries to say to him at some point like don't feel bad about what you've done

as a witch. It's what you had to do. And what you understand later is that she realized he's created the road which kills several of the witches in the coven. Like only Sashir's Ameta really makes it out alive. And so even though he didn't kill them, he sort of did. He created the conditions under which they die. And so she's already telling him, like, I know this, you know, don't feel bad about this. I know this. I mean, he should feel bad about it. But yeah, it's okay that he feels bad.

Right, right. Because he sort of did. But then that's that interesting part. So that's like the conversation that they're having in the finale episode when she comes back as like the coolest ghost ever. I don't know if I was about to say ghost dust. I don't know if ghost has chinty. I don't know either, yeah. But it almost did from what I was saying.

But I saw the showrunner. They offered her so much money to do a second season of Wanda Vision. And she said no. And they did the same thing with this one. And she said no. And she's like, I write contain series. And like, obviously I'm fine with it because it produces what it produces. But the end does have you kind of like how corrupt.

will Billy now that we are probably just calling him Billy at this point um like how corrupt is he going to go because he is like I think like literally the last line is her saying like let's go find Tommy I think Tommy and Billy right his brother yeah and so it's like is he going to learn from her and and start to not care about killing people and so like that was so compelling but like Yeah. She's not going to continue the story and I'm like, oh. I know. And I sort of get it because I really, I do too. Yeah, I feel like she threw a lot at the wall here. Like it would be really hard to, I mean, to pull off the sort of twists and reveals that she had here in a second season and people would want that. So I get it. And like she sort of left it all on the dance floor. And I'm also with you in that I would totally watch another season. And I'm very curious about like their little coven of two.

I guess if I got her all along she didn't consider like a second season of Wanda Vision maybe there is a version where like the story's more

about him and maybe we will hear more about him I guess the way that they're all developing IP I have no doubt there will be another show it probably just won't be the same creator

and it'll probably be from Billy's viewpoint which my my understanding is his Marvel character name is Wicken okay for the Marvel heads in the chat. Yeah.

Yeah. And so maybe they will continue that. I wouldn't be shocked. Yeah. Yeah. When you were talking about Marvel stuff, the other thing that I, like, wrote down after I'd watched it, when we, when we see team, like, his episode that explains his backstory, essentially, when he kind of like comes to in the back of the car after a car accident, when the whole Wanda vision, whatever that. big red explosion of her was. Yes. He literally is like, he, he wakes up screaming the name Tommy.

And so there is a part of me where I was like, maybe if I had just watched Wanda Vision and had remembered the names, maybe I would have guessed it or would have at least guessed that he was her son. But like, I didn't remember her kids' names. I watched Wanda Vision when it came out, like, during the pandemic. Like, it feels like, four years ago that I watched it, I think. For sure. So it wasn't in my mind, but I was like, I do kind of what you're saying,

like, if you were really into Marvel, maybe that one would have been easier to catch, but I was glad that I did it in this case. I was too. And even with all of that, that was almost sort of the least interesting mystery to me, all respect to teen. But like, you know, finding out who he was was not why I was watching the show. It was like an interesting thing keeping us going, but I was more interested in Agatha and the witches and the like the dark side of the witches road. And I was so, I think there's something in here too if we're looking at it from a writerly standpoint. I really loved, I know we kind of said this earlier. I loved how clearly there was so much love

and affection for like the Wizard of Oz. And again, looking up the screenwriter was talking or the showrunner was talking about other influences were like Labyrinth and Dark Crystal and it reminded me too of this movie that I loved from the 1980s called Return to Oz. Have you seen this? I've heard about it though. Well, you're going to hear about it more. Not enough that I remember what it's about. It is a sequel to Wizard of Oz done many years later in the 80s, I believe by Frank

Oz, which is like a strange thing, but it was a children's movie with Farooza Balk who you may or may not know the name, but you would definitely know the face. She was in like the craft, and she's like a little kid in it. So it's a continuation of the Oz stories, right? From like the multiple books that Frank L. Baum wrote. And it is so dark.

It is from when they made movies in the 80s for children where they were like, we're going to fuck some kids up. And I was here for it. Like, Kee Bang Bang is like low key terrifying? Yes. Yes. A bunch of them.

I mean, Labyrinth, Dark Crystal. All of those are very scary. This one starts when. Dorothy can't stop talking about her experience in Oz. And basically like, Auntie M is like, we're not having it anymore. So she takes her to a mental hospital where she's going to be lobotomized. And then she breaks free of it. There's like a storm and a little girl helps her.

And they like get out and they like get into a river. And presumably the little girl drowns, although you find out different that she's actually somebody from Oz. And she goes back into Oz. Oz has undergone a fascist takeover. And it is so there's like, it is. It's like a scary Wizard of Oz. Highly recommend and I love it. And I watch that all the time as a kid and then later watched it as an adult and was like,

so much of my creativity actually comes from this movie and I didn't realize it. That's cool. But the thing that I loved about Agatha was it felt like I could feel the way that these writers were paying homage to their favorite things. And it just made me think about how much fun it is to do that in our own work to like take the strange little things that obsessed us as children and like leave it in there. And they do such a good job of that of like what is the dark side of the yellow brick road and how do we make it look? And like one of the challenges is like looks like basically a nice house and a like what do they

call basically like those cookie cutter houses. You know what I'm talking about? And they're really nice in the stuff, but they're basically like model houses where they're all like look to say. And like how do we you're there and they're drinking wine and then the wine is. poisoned and all these. It was so fun and it made me think about what are ways that I can have like more fun with my own weird obsessions and my writing, you know? Yes. It's what makes it so many things stand out is like when you like dive into that because then it's not as like formulaic and like it's kind of like I think I've said it before on some podcast at some point. But it's it's like when it's fun to talk to someone who's so excited about

something that you feel excited about it, even though you didn't care about it until they started talking about it. It's like that feeling or you mentioned like when you can tell that an author was having fun writing a book. It's like those things. Totally. Totally. So we should all find ways to have more fun. God. Yes. Please. And also everybody should watch Return to Oz so that I can talk to you about it and we can talk to. There's one character who's like a big batty and she's this beautiful woman and she lives in a hall of like she lives in a palace and she has different heads that she tries on and takes off that she's like collected from women. So it's like her wardrobe is heads. So she'll be like, wow.

And she'll like put on this head and like I, I don't know if it did bad things to me as a child emotion. I'm sure it didn't. But like I'm telling you like I think like this movie is where my creativity comes from. Well, I definitely need to watch it. Oh my gosh. I just found like an image of her it's crazy it's so good yeah that's creepy especially in a fascist sense

yeah boy yeah that's like what was that just reminding me of oh well reminds you of how George Washington had a full set of slave teeth so yeah you're so right

and I love that that's like where we are in America too where it's like oh right right the horse here got it yes yes it's still here it's still here little teeny tiny side note that I also will not go any further on but the fact that amidst I mean this is going to come out in a few days so it's not going to feel like old news that but amidst all the this trade war and tariffs with China is some some interviewer asked some some Chinese official like what are you going to do if the Americans like stop buying your goods though and they said we've been around for 5,000 years I think we'll be around for 5,000 more and I was like fuck yeah that was the best response ever 100% and I you know so I was lucky enough to get to go to China um oh nice about

maybe eight years ago and I will tell you when I was there I was like we think we're the superpower and we're not. It is already China. That is my opinion. Yeah. Well, even like, well, Crazy Rich Asians wasn't necessarily that, but it's like, yeah, I'm becoming more and more aware of how much they, I was watching someone's a really good TikTok about the way that we've, um, uh, negatively stigmatized the term made in China. Yeah. To sound like we say it when we're trying to say like, it's cheap. Yeah. And it's like, no, they make everything. Everything. But like propaganda, I will call it propaganda and cultural whatever. We've decided like, oh, made in China. That's like how we say something's cheap. No, that's not truth. No, totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other podcast we could talk about. But we have, there's plenty to say there. You're right. Yes. We'll go back to Oz slash the word that doesn't exist in reality.

should we talk about the Patty Lupone of it all? Yes. That was my favorite episode. It's the episode that I've rewatched the most. Actually, so I say it's my favorite episode, and I would say it is my favorite episode, but there's nothing compares to the last two episodes where you get the big reveal.

Like to me, those are, and the fact that, so it's the penultimate episode, you find out that the road isn't real. It's all been a projection of Billy slash teen slash wickin. And that was crazy. And then I'm like, how do they do another episode? episode after that. And then what we find out in that episode is like even crazier, you were texting me and I was trying to be like, don't spoil anything for her. I know, you're like, are you completely

done? And I was like, okay, then we're not going to talk yet about it because the, okay, I said we'll talk about the Patty Lupone, but maybe we should just talk about the end really fast, which is, that's fine too. The, the reveal that the road started, the ballot of the, the road started because Catherine Hahn's character, Agatha, I'm sorry, for a minute, I forgot what her name was. Agatha has a son, Nicholas Scratch, and they are kind of, Agatha can't have a coven because she steals all of the power from the coven. She's been cast out. She's being chased by the seven throughout the show, which are like the descendants of the coven that she killed, which included her mother. So it's just the two of them against the world. And they have created this ballad that they sing to each other

that he has created as they go. And he's sickly. He's supposed to die at birth, but she basically begs Rio, who is death for more life for him. And she's like, he's not going to live forever, but I can give you a little bit more time. It's so heartbreaking. And so sad.

So they have created the road and they're like stealing power from people. And he doesn't want to. He's a little boy and he sees it's wrong. And she's using him as like people think he's innocent. and like he leads them back to her. Yeah. Yeah. And so the only day that they don't do that is the sense you sort of get.

He does die that night. And she's devastated. And so she takes, the only thing left for her now is like pursuit of power, pursuit of witchcraft. So she takes the ballot of the road, the people have heard them sing kind of across the countryside and promotes herself as I'm the only survivor of the road. I can take you to the road. We'll sing the ballad together and uses that to provoke these other witches to attack her and steal their power. And she is, in fact, a con artist slash serial killer of witches. Yes.

Amazing. And it's when it falls in that. And then that's the first time you realize what was happening when she tried to summon the road with them. And now you know why she was actually surprised that it didn't work. But then you also realize like, why she was trying to get them angry because that was actually her whole intent the entire time during that episode was to do that same thing to them. Right, right. She was not here. She was not going to take the road because she herself wants to go on any sort of quest. She's looking for power.

She has lost her power and she wants it back. And she is also in this like queer dance of romance and death with death, the character who is death. And, part of the reason you get the sense that death, like, loves her is because she's offering, she kills so many people. There's like this sort of relationship there. It's so interesting and wonderful to pick apart and like what a reveal. That was like, because all along you've been hearing like, oh, you're a killer, you're all these bad things. And you're like, oh, I don't think Agatha's good, but I didn't, you know, you don't really understand the power of the backstory. And when you finally get it, it felt so earned and so mind-blowing to me.

Yeah. And the other, I think the other reason that we, or that I tended toward being sympathetic to her before we know all of this is we do also know that her mom turned on her within their coven and she was about to be burned at the stake. And that was like the first, I think we don't know for sure if anything happened before then, but I at least get the feeling that that was the first. that she did that, like took so much power from these other witches and killed them. And so many things are happening in my brain in my heart right now. I jokingly told you, I was like, my funny take on this show is mother wounds are a bitch. And you're not wrong. You are not wrong. And we see it with Agatha. And then we see it with her son who doesn't want to be doing the stuff she's making him do and then Billy is deeply wounded by what his mom did like yeah there is I love that it's a female centered show and it also still very much focuses on like um not all women are perfect either like that that's not the version that it was going for so I think

when before we knew that she is just like a serial witch killer um which maybe this is how I could convince gear to watch it but then it would ruin it for for him. I know, right? That's the thing is I'm like, you can't tell people, but I got to the end of it. And I was like, it's a crime show. It's like an anti-heroine, like good for her, like not good for her because she's feeling innocent. It is like a female serial killer show. And I didn't know. Which makes it even cooler that it started off in the procedural, the really bad procedural format or whatever. So you kind of, um, so I'm kind of like, did she just have some wounds around that time and then rumors maybe circulated or whatever. Like we don't we don't know until we know. Um, and and then even then,

so like I had a couple other questions like did she and Rio or death? She and death, did they, did they know each other before she had the kid? They kind of seemed like they were familiar with each other. I think so. Maybe that is pointing to her doing it. Yeah. Yeah. But you're right. It's you don't get a whole lot of backstory about her and Rio's clear love affair. And which I actually liked. I liked that it wasn't like fully. one to one developed. And so you do have these questions that are kind of interesting, which is like, were they, were they dating? Can you date? Right. You know, or like, is it this dance because Agatha is a serial killer? So she's offering death all these bodies. Like, what is the, what is the affair

that's happened? Yeah. Yeah. So that doesn't totally get resolved. Um, but and we also don't know who the father is. That was something too where I was like, are we going to learn about how she got pregnant? because that episode pretty much, I think, starts up with her very pregnant and about to just give birth in the woods. And then that's when Rio shows up. And she's like, no. And so even at that point, I'm like, is our sympathetic way into her supposed to be like she wanted this kid so badly? Like clearly she did or she wouldn't have asked. If she didn't want it, she would have been selfish and not had it.

I think we can be sure of. 100%. I think she really wanted Nicholas. And then, so then there's a version of my brain that's like, okay, so was knowing that his short life and the fact that he would die still somewhat soon, did that make her, is that what made her obsessed with accumulating all of the power that she possibly can? And so then again, I'm, I'm waiting through the mother issues of it all.

So is it like, like she was so hurt by her mom, obviously. And is this like an overcorrection where she's like, I will protect my child. I will never, they will never be in that position. I don't have so much power. But then you keep watching and you're like, no, I think she just likes power for the sake of power. So you don't feel as bad anymore at all. I think so too.

And the show also leaves it unclear. I think there's a reading of this. the show doesn't come down fully on the side of like how much of her, like, has she is part of what she's negotiated with death for more time that like as long as she keeps killing witches, Nicholas will live. Like they do not ever explicitly tell us that except that the time that we see that they don't kill witches is the day he dies. And so there is this sort of like, and I like that they don't fully say that that's that because that would be like such a, such a like pat explanation of like why Agatha's doing what she's doing. And I don't

think that that's as interesting is like leaving it open-ended. But it is an open-ended question of like, is part of the reason she gets, as Rio calls it, special treatment because she's offering other people in his place? Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so there's that. Like, is it because in her mind, she's actually kind of trying to be a better mom than her mom? But the other thing that I was thinking about, which actually ties into one of our White Lotus conversations. about female friendships that we had. Is like the mother wound, especially to a daughter, can define the relationships you'll have with women for the rest of your life

if you don't examine it is where I'm headed with that. And I used to be, it's interesting. I've been reflecting on a lot of things lately that were certain ways in my 20s and my childhood. So that's why it's taking so long for me to get these thoughts out too. But I used to be more fearful of women than I am now because of my first bully was my mom. So from very early on. And so the other thing I was kind of seeing in all of that too is like her model of femaleness in did with her, yeah, ended with her relationship with her mom, ends with her getting burned at the

steak. Yeah. And then her just like having to like do something really drastic just to survive herself. And it's like it just, I mean, there wasn't therapy back in like where it's like in medieval times is like where we kind of start the story with her. But I feel like it's still like shows like when you have unobserved wounds or you have. have wounds that you just want to look at or you just want to like keep moving and like whatever I'll just keep going whatever it still can taint your your relationships with other people and so in some ways is it like she was like when my mom thought I was expendable yeah like women are expendable and women are enemies and I need to take their power so they don't take

my power like it feels like there's like all of this like deep mother wound stuff in it even that way. I think you're totally right. And like, you're right. The, like, last moment they have when they're alive is her mom's, like, willing to burn her at the stake. But then we see her ghost and one of the episodes. And her ghost says some, like, incredibly nasty things to the point where the other women in the coven that are traveling on the road with her, who are not really fans of Agatha, even they are like, Jesus. Like, that's a bit much. Her mom says something like, I should have strangled you to death the second you left my body. And everybody's like, okay. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, And like directly leads to somebody dying because they try to protect her.

And but I'm totally with you. I think that there's an interesting thing. And I think it even goes back to the Marvel moment. Like Agatha's power is that she takes power from other women essentially. And it's, I mean, I guess there are male witches, but we don't see them in this particular. Like I guess we see Billy as a, well, it's whatever. There's not a lot of there's, there, we're more focused in a world of women. And it's interesting because you're,

you're right. I'm sure that trope kind of came maybe from a misogynistic place when it was first written in the Marvel universe. But the way that the show grapples with it is I think your reading is like the right one is more of this like also mother wound is like if Agatha was born with this power, she kind of can't. That's that's what it is and how do you deal with it and control it and you know, I don't know. It's so interesting. Yeah. And yeah. And then, her losing her kid obviously and then she's like fuck it all and we do see a moment and i feel like this is actually like so you you're right you tell us when we talked about she takes the kiss of death and she doesn't let teen die although there is legitimately a second where you think she's going to

but i almost think the more triumphant like quote unquote sacrifice or moment before that is she gives billy some of her or she takes some of the power from billy but she's able to stop it before it kills him. She does. You can see that there's a moment where she's like, and she couldn't tell if she was going to go. And she finally decides to like make the choice of like, I'll take this power, but I won't take it all.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's fascinating. And then Billy has been estranged from his mom, essentially. And he's even just trying to find his brother. I'm sure he would love to reconnect with Wanda as well. And then we're also like thinking so much about this Nicholas that we keep hearing about. We're like, what happened?

It almost like in some ways you think she like did something terrible like traded him for more power. And that's the that's like the rumor, right? Everybody seems to think that she killed her son for more power. She did something. And that's kind of like what you're thinking the first part of it. And it's so sad because it is not the truth. And like he dies from like something very ordinary. It's just sick.

I mean, she can't protect him. I know. I know. And he did. Poor Nicholas, too. I know. I know. He didn't even want to do it.

I know. I know. It's like that part remind me of Stone Cold Fox. How well Rachel Collarcroft really, like, told the stories of like being a child and having your parent. Be like, no, this is what we do. Go do it. Totally. You're like, okay.

Totally. I do love that book too. Yeah. Yeah. And it, what was I going to say? I lost my train of thought. It's still. So many trains of thought. I know. So many trains of thought. There was, nope, I've lost it. It'll come back. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we kind of talked about it earlier, but it makes sense in this context, too, since we're talking about Nicholas. But the way the song developed, like in some way. So I saw this is another subreddit comment that I was like, this is. this is exactly what's cool about it. But it said I loved that they showed the evolution of singing for fun to the creation of a song to propagate rumors to help Agatha. And then eventually that song is recorded as a pop song by a witch. Yeah. Like the evolution of it is so wild too because like it also seems like she kind of makes it up to help him be like, we're going on a fun adventure.

Yes. So it's even like writing something to hide the. reality of the darkness. And then we find out the song is like even more hiding reality and like using for a dark reason. But then it turns into a pop song even. Totally. And the pop song. And so there's like two to piggyback off that two different things that I was thinking of. So one, every time Agatha is singing it and using it to kill people, she also has this really visceral reminder of her son there. And so it's this really interesting thing of like she's singing it, this thing that she's created with her son and she's also using it to kill women and it almost

feels like she's using it to like hurt herself too as she's hurting other people you know that there's something in there of like this is you're keeping his memory alive sort of but in a way that he would never want and like this sort of crazy thing then there's also you're right the lorna one of the witches that we meet her mother is lorna i can't remember if lorna's the mom or if she's the daughter. I can't remember either. I think Lorna might be the mom. Lorna Wu and Alice Wu. Oh yeah. I think I think you're right Alice I think. So Lorna is like the Stevie Nix of witches and has

like recorded a version of the ballad that honestly absolutely slaps. I have listened to it outside of the show too. And you find out and so it's like that's how everyone knows the ballot and it's so popular but you also find out that what she has done is she has coded it as a protection song so that as long as everybody is singing, as long as someone somewhere sings the ballad, her daughter is safe. So it is also the inverse of like she's using the ballad as protection for her daughter from this like demon that has haunted their family. And the only way that she can do it is through the ballad. And so it the way that they use this one single thing for all of these

different meanings and the different way it shifts meanings. You're right. It is so amazingly crafted and well done. Yeah. And then like and then that's like the version of like loving motherhood. Yeah, exactly. Which we don't get anywhere else right in the story or in this series specifically. It's so good. Yeah. I'm so obsessed. Yeah. But Patty's episode. Yes. And our nonlinear, the nonlinear stuff so cool that she's so cool. Yeah. So throughout the show. Patty Lupone is, I don't remember which witch she is. She does taro, but they have different kinds. There's like the green witch different.

I don't remember which one she is. But she keeps having these random things where she'll say something that everybody kind of knows that like she's, she's going to pop off and say something. And you're like, what was that? And what you come to find out when we finally get to her episode is that she does not experience time linearly. She experiences she goes back and forth. And it happened to her a lot as a child and it was very scary to her. Yeah.

And it happened to her. It's happening more and more as the show goes on. And she thinks it's because she's nearing her death. And so in that episode, which takes place out of sequence, we see her kind of grappling with her own mortality. We see her grappling with what it is to have her power, which is that she can see the future, but she can't always impact it. Like she sees that her coven back in Sicily. in like, I don't know, the 1400s or something is going to die. And she tells them and it doesn't stop it.

They still die. And so she has a tremendous amount of guilt and, like, has, like, put all this away. And you go back, she, in that episode, you go back in all of the moments where she'd been like, says this thing that's out of pocket. You see her experience those moments. It is so well put together. And I cry every time at the end. And it's beautiful. Yeah.

So, yeah, like you're saying, that. there in every episode there's something where at least one thing if not more where she just says something and i say this careingly it's almost like she has like Tourette's is like what yeah like just like she says something that she can't stop herself from saying and it has nothing to do with anything and you're just kind of like okay but yeah the fact that then all of the moments from other episodes not even just that episode you're like this is what she was experiencing this is what she was experiencing you're like yeah my god And I think the episode starts with her kind of falling in a black void.

And the previous episode had ended with her and the witch who has the most amazing bone structure ever and is like a beauty influencer. I can't think of her name. I don't remember her. The actress is the sheer Sameda and I don't remember her name in the show. I don't either. But they have right at the end of the episode previously, they've what we kind of. kind of think died in some ways because they get like uh kind of like consumed by dirt mud that has like a quicksand vibes they kind of get like consumed into the ground and teen throws them off the road

it's sort of the reveal of teen's hidden power he throws them off the road and they like yes yeah oh my gosh yes and then it zooms in and he has that crown the backsam off crown we already talked about because i do i don't have all of the notes but the music choice the song choices they make at the each episode. Holy shit. Brilliant. Because it's like that one starts with you should see me in a crown. And I was like, oh my God. I know. Chills. I was like, this is amazing. So then when you see her falling in the black void, you kind of think it's just her falling through the ground or whatever because we kind of know they're like underground now. And then the fact that at the end, it's because she like flips the gravity of the tower. And she's, like, flips the gravity of the tower. And

actually fall into her death. And I was like, oh my God. I know. It's incredible. It's incredible. So that moment they're trying to go through. They've gotten to a challenge that is tarot. And she's the tarot master. And so yeah, so she's a divination witch. Divination witch. And so she gets to, they think that she's supposed to be reading for teen. But she's like, they realize that actually she's supposed to be reading for herself. And so in that moment, she sees her past and all, all of future and what's going to come, which is that she's going to fall. She's going to sacrifice herself for the rest of the coven. And interspiced in this, again, all of it taking place out of sequence, which is like brilliant. And at first it's like jarring, but then truly is brilliant once you really

like connect to the structure of it. You also see that she's speaking. She goes back, back in time, and she's having conversations with her master, the one who trained her as a devonation, which and she's like her, her mentor understands that she's visiting from a different time. And they're sort of talking through what's going to come and like how I'm going to cry now. Like how it is the end for her. But like that so she sees that she's going to fall. She makes the choice to reverse the tower. She gets rid of the seven who have been chasing Agatha.

She's giving herself up. Essentially, I think for teen that he's the way forward. And then the episode ends with her as a young girl coming to her first lesson. And it again is this beautiful moment of like time is not linear. things have ended for her but they have they never end. Mm-hmm. I know. Yeah, when she,

when we first get that scene with her, with her, like you're saying her master, she, she even says something. She's like, ooh, it's been a while since I've heard from this version of you.

It's like, kind of the gist of it. I'm like getting chills saying it too. I know. It's like that was like, it's like her only touchstone in her life is like returning to that woman essentially. And what you're saying like,

being a kid having that happening to you where you're just getting displaced and I'm assuming I don't think like her parents are witches or any type of power necessarily too so it's like no one understands what's happening to you and it's just terrifying so it's cool saying because well I'm just going to keep going back to mothers here I am but it is kind of like a mother figure that she's essentially going back to and and then to what you were saying about how she sees the her coven die and then she can't do anything about it and that i just saw something that says she's 450 years old um 400 50 years later she still feels guilty about it um that is an example of that's like a uh not foil but that's like the opposite of agatha too so we're like

also seeing someone who wasn't even actually supposed she shouldn't feel guilty for the way they died. But like because she knew it was going to happen, she even feels guilty and she feels bad and she misses them. So we are getting this like much purer character, especially once we get to the end and see what Agatha's been doing. And you're like, oh, you could have handled things differently. Totally. And she's so scared of her power. And then she gets to have this beautiful moment at the end of that episode where she says like, I loved being a witch. And you get the sense that like she hadn't felt that for a long time. And that actually, and that's like, that's like, think a thing that they do that's really cool that I think they don't hit us over the head with

the hammer necessarily, but like everyone actually does get what they need out of the road, even though multiple witches die, you know, poor Depp or Joe rep, I don't know that she needed anything off of the road. But Alice gets reconnected with her mom a little bit. Alice reconnects with her mom. She gets rid of the demon and she dies protecting somebody. She's a protection witch. She dies doing the thing that she was supposed to do. Patty Lupone reconnects with her. herself. I loved being a witch and I'm finally like okay with my own mortality and also the understanding that like again that was I think what's so beautiful to me is like she's experiencing time out of order. So for her even though she dies it also never ends. Like there's also she's also

still the little girl going for her first as we all are right? Like we're all those versions of ourselves. We're every version of ourselves and I thought that was what was so beautiful. And then Sashir's Amata's character has been bound. We found out by Agatha, but like by the end, she does get her power back and is like, so everybody actually does fulfill the wishes of the road, but not everybody survives the road. Yes. Yeah, that was the cool thing. And it kind of also highlights how everyone grew except I don't think Agatha grew. I see, I maybe disagree slightly. I agree with you that they do not, she's not given a redemption arc. And I say, thank God. Like, I did not want that for her.

but I do think she she's never had a coven and she ends in a coven even though she's dead. That's true. You're right. And she ends with teen in a coven of two. And there is something there that's like, I don't know if it's growth necessary, but she's in a different spot than she was. You're right. You're right. Yeah, it's just the redemption part. Yes, I agree.

No redemption. No standing off her edges. No, but I do think she gets what she needs. needs in a way, too. Her own coven. That's a good point. And maybe the only

reason she can have it is because she's dead now. So like I don't know that ghost Agatha has the ability to suck out teen's power. Yeah. So she can't actually be in a coven now that she's a ghost, but it's only because she doesn't, she can't do that. Oh my gosh. Which really

I've been thinking about narcissism and narcissistic abuse just a little bit more for some reasons. I'm getting that. Yeah, it's coming up a little bit. But even that is a really powerful allegory for not even allegory metaphor for the only way that like hardcore narcissists can even be in a relationship is if they're powerless. Like yeah. The only way the, sorry, the only way the other people around them are safe is if they are

powerless. So that would be an interesting take on that where it's like teens actually safe now because she's powerless. Yeah. That's and again, it's something I don't think the show makes explicit. Like I don't actually know that I know if Agatha has powers as a ghost. Right. But that's my sort of reading is that she can only be in a, she can be in a coven now because she's dead and essentially neutralized. And she can have the thing that she may be needed, but only, only now. Yeah. So fascinating. anything. Yeah. I just hope that showrunner does some other stuff in general because I'm sure she will. I'm sure she will. Yeah. I totally agree. Amazing storytelling. Amazing ability to like,

like she also in this interview I was reading talked about, you know, she loves things like Fight Club and I'm like, yeah, I see it. Like this is essentially like a version of Fight Club sort of where it's like we, you know, and so I, I'm very interested to see what else comes out. Yeah. I was seeing something about, what was it? I was reading an article about how there are like so many people who actually don't understand that Fight Club is about toxic masculinity. There are a bunch of men that just like think this is about like badass masculinity. And I'm like, of course they have no media literacy. I think I think it's all of that, right? Like it's Fight Club. I feel like the other one I've been seeing too making the rounds as American Psycho or like Glen Gary, Glenn Ross or Wall Street or any of these things where it's like these were not. actually meant even even this is another weird one to me it is always weird when people have like gatsby parties like listen i get it the aesthetic is amazing but that is like a parable about the dangers of wealth and partying essentially so to be like let's live like gatsby it's like you didn't fucking get it you didn't read it you know like you go back and you fail 10th grade like you didn't

pass there this has been happening i have seen a couple reviews about a book that i really loved called Dead Money. And to me, and I even interviewed the author, you can go listen. So I think my read was correct. This was a satire about Silicon Valley. It is written by someone who was one of the original employees at Airbnb. Oh, wow. Airbnb.

And like could not feel more like satire to me. And there are views that are like, this is disgusting. This is defending bro culture. sure. There's a twist at the end that like I really think people, it's not even a twist. It's a good for her moment in my opinion. And they're like talking about how problematic it is. And I'm like, I think you guys were missing the point. Yeah. Yeah. I hate when that happens. Totally. And it's like, it's hard to know sometimes like from a craft standpoint, was there something that didn't get signposted that people aren't picking up that it's a satire? But also like I think people can

bad readers don't tell me what well that's what that's what this came from is me talking about like i'm realizing the media literacy is like i really started that he noticing that conversation i think it was two years ago when a ballad of songs and snakes that that one came out and like don't get me wrong i understand the thirst traps and he is very hot if you don't know his character But I think there really were some people who didn't understand, like, no, he's still a bad dude. Totally. And I, yeah, I agree. And I mean, I think that's the point, right?

Is that, like, sometimes evil is deductive and beautiful and, like, you still have to say no to it. And, like, there is a thing like, actually, this is so funny. I was listening to a podcast episode last week of the podcast Decoder Ring about how the book, if you give a mouse a cookie, has been, like, co-opted by, like, the conservative. right to be like, this is why welfare states don't work. And the author is like, no, that, no, that wasn't actually what I was saying at all. But then actually, if you get in, like there's, it's a, it's a fascinating episode. Um, not to direct people away from your podcast, but, uh, no, we can, we can listen to multiple. They can listen after. Guys, you'll listen after. Exactly. And, but I, I, I also think there's something to,

I don't know. I think it's a complicated interplay sometimes. between like authorial intent and what people get out of books. And it's not that there isn't responsibility on the author, but I also think sometimes we read things now as though to read a book is to read someone's manifesto. And I don't think that that's what most authors are doing a lot of the time. I think they are trying to show you a world and you get to have your own complicated critical thoughts about it, but it's not them saying, like,

fight club is not, well, I can't remember who wrote. Is it Polaniak who wrote Fight Club? I don't know that it's him saying, this is the good way to be, you know? Or like American and Psycho, which is Brett Easton Ellis, is, I really don't think it's him saying, this is what good masculinity is. No. Even though I, we can, he's a problematic person in and of himself, but we'll leave that to the side. But you know what I mean?

Like, and I think that there's sometimes that happens with readings that I think is not always the best reading of a text to be like what they're saying is what the author believes. Yeah. I think, and I think as you were saying that sometimes it's like if it's not so outlandish and horrorish and so thrillerish and so even. I think that's sometimes what then people are miscommir merging together what an author writes with their literal personality. Yeah. Because it's like I think of how for whatever reason, I think because I just edited an episode where we were talking about it. Jennifer Hillier is coming to mind. We were specifically talking about jar of hearts because of course we were.

Yeah. Great book. But if anyone has read that, like the last 20%, the reveals are extremely. extremely dark and like the very climactic event is both shocking from like a twist and plot perspective and also like egregiously terrible what is trying to occur. And so she's an author that we often talk about where we're like thriller writers are just so freaking nice to talk to. They're so sweet.

And then they write these crazy books. And I don't think any of us think that Jennifer Hillier is like any of her characters because or books are so dark. And so I think maybe sometimes it's easier when it's like so dark and so outlandish. Yeah. Maybe. And then maybe with like this book that I'm talking about, dead money is just because that's when I brought up.

It's just taking place in like modern times. There's nothing gory. There's no horror. It's taking place in Silicon Valley that we've all heard about. So sometimes I think you almost benefit from writing, not benefit, but in this use case that we're talking about. people separate the author more when it's totally outlandish versus when it's like kind of in real time, which is what a lot of satire are. Maybe people miss it because it's not so like over the top.

Totally. Totally. And I think that there's not, it's not that there's not critiques to be had of like, is this, first of all, is it positioned in the marketplace by her marketing team as satire correctly? Is it, you know, like, I think that there, I, I have. haven't read dead money so I can't speak to that example but I think that there are ways that maybe like satire is hard because you are like critiquing something and if it's not clear that you're doing that that can be a problem so I'm not saying that there's that there's no authorial responsibility but I do think I see sometimes this sort of flattening of like we take a text and we don't consider certain traditions that might be in are different things as you might just say like

I think this is what the author believes and it's like well I don't know that I think that's true, you know? Right. I agree. Yeah, like, Amina Oktar is one of my favorites. And she even jokingly is like, I don't even think I write satire. I'm just like writing funny shit about what I've experienced in the world. But hers is very horror related.

So I think it's easier to be like, oh, yeah, she's not saying this is okay. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, we ended somewhere else. But I think we got a lot in about it.

Agatha brings up a lot of these similar feelings as a character. Yeah, I totally. I don't think she's satire, but you know what I mean. No, I agree. I agree. I don't think she's satire at all, but I think you're, she lives in a space that it, like there was something about it, and we've already kind of covered it, but there was something about it that was so refreshing to me that she was a,

a villain without a redemption arc, that she, but also without being, so much mustache twirley you know like yes it was it was there was something so compelling about that about like truly not knowing she could go she could choose to do a good thing and it's not going to redeem all the bad that she's done but like it makes her really um yeah you don't know what she's going to do she's kind of a renegade in that way yeah she is which is why we still love her a little bit. We love her as a character. I don't want to be your friend. No, agree. That was the same conversation we had about the Martha Stewart documentary. Totally. I was texting. I was like, I don't know that she would be the best friend, but something

about her existing in the world, the way she does makes me happy that women can exist that way. Totally. I totally agree. I like, and that's, I think, I think that is another like cultural conversation to be like the whole unlikable women bit of it and like how unlikable can you be like to me i agree with you agatha i don't need to be your friend agatha or um martha stewart but are they compelling and like that's what i care about in like media i consume is not if i feel like i want to go grab lunch with them it's like do i want to watch what they're doing am i fascinated by them and yes i absolutely am yeah me too we're here for varieties of women range of women.

We are. And may we all write compelling women, whether or not they're likable.