Bookwild - Art Theft Thrillers with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: March 29, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton is back with a super fun topic: art theft!  She's been taking a class that dives into art theft, and it inspires conversations about forgeries, the non-violent nature of the crime, and how status symbols gain their worth.  We also shares some of our favorite books that include art-related theft or crimes!Books We Talked AboutWhere Are You Echo BlueEverybody KnowsSociety of LiesWhen I’m HerWhat Meets the EyeThe Art ThiefFake Like MeMy DeathBlood RubiesYellowfaceThe PlotThe Lock Box Documentary We Talked AboutMade You Look Podcast We Talked AboutDeath of an Artist     Acting but people believe it’s youCould past and present be ai vs real build a model of you as an actor in case you die during filming https://sayhi.chat/4a0gx       Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

So this week we have Hallie Sutton with us again. I'm so excited. We always have so much fun. And she is puppy sitting a very, very, very, very cute golden retriever. So this might be another episode with a little animal co-host. But we can do that. So welcome back. Thank you.

It's so good to be back. And sorry that I may or may not in the background be like, you know, trying to make sure the puppy is not eating my house. But I'm so excited to be here with you. me too and you had a really fun idea for something for us to talk about because of a class that you've been taking so do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah definitely and like I'm hoping that I can come back and maybe we can have more conversations about it too once I finish the class and I can like show you all my geeky highlights because I so I'm the daughter of a teacher so taking classes

is like my favorite thing ever like if I'm. I could send in my notes and get a gold star on them. I absolutely would. But like, you know, these internet class people are not looking for that for me. So I have been... I was a teacher's pet. Not a teacher's daughter, so I feel you.

Right. And they're probably like, no, ma'am, you've like paid your $49. We're not here to like. And I'm like, but I would just like one, a little gold star. It was what I did. Right. It would make me feel better. So I have been taking an Atlas Obscura.

class on the history of art forgery and art crime. And art crime is something that I have been like weirdly interested in for the last couple of years. I also think it helps that there's been kind of an explosion in like art crime documentaries recently. Like there were a couple of different ones that have been out on Netflix that have gotten a lot of traction. But I was just saying to Kate back before we were recording that I think it's I think there's something about art crime that really is like a way that you can access true crime without some of the ethical conundrums because it's often less violent which is not to say that there aren't victims particularly you know when museums get robbed but like there's a way that it feels less at least

to me less icky to be kind of learning about this type of true crime because the victims are often very wealthy people or it's not usually as violent a crime. And so I don't know. So I've been really, really digging this class and really digging kind of like when I step back and look at like the true crime that I've been consuming for the last couple of years, a lot of it centers around art crime in different ways. And so I was just thought we could have like an interesting conversation around that, whether it's books or podcasts or documentaries or what have you.

Yeah. I similarly, and I think I've talked about. got it on here, but like a very long time ago. Like, I don't really get into true crime. When it's like a murder case normally or stuff like that, like it doesn't. It's not that I never care if it's like in the news or something, but it's like not something I do get into. And I have always felt like reading fiction just feels so much different than watching murders. Totally.

being entertained by like a real life murder and all of everything you were saying like it does get like conflicting even like I got on a years ago I got like on a kick with the royal family and oh yes oh we got to talk Kate Middleton right all the princess Diana stuff was like it's so fascinating but then you're like these are people's lives like yeah that part still blows my mind so for it is more exciting And you're making me wonder about because like I always I love con cons and fiction as well. Like such a sucker for that as a plotline. And I wonder if it is sometimes because like it's not as like dark and heavy. Like it's like someone might be getting away with tricking people. But like it's not like you're getting like body horror in those books. No, for sure. For sure, no.

And I think that there's a way in which art crime also is. like in books and media I've consumed, there's something that's very like psychological about it because it's such a strange crime. Like there's kind of two different avenues. There's like forgeries and then there's like stealing paintings out of personal collections or museums. And the thing, so forgeries are the more lucrative because like essentially they're, so one of the best documentaries that I have seen recently about art crime is called Made You Look. And I think it's on Netflix. And it's about this gallery in New York that was getting all of these collections of like crazy, like, oh, look at this Rothko that nobody's seen. Look at this Jackson Pollock

that nobody's seen. And they were reselling them at these high rates. They believed that they had like somebody coming to them where it was like, oh, my father had this collection in Mexico that nobody's seen. And there were just enough details that it was close enough to being believable. And the art itself was so close to like looking like a real thing. And then it comes out that they're all forgeries. And this gallery had sold something like some crazy, like, I want to say like $800 million that they like had sold these four, all of these different paintings. That could be wrong. It might be, but it was still like a significant amount of money. And then funny enough, it was like, Army Hammer's father had like owned the gallery. So it ties into all these other

weird true crime. But like, and it's basically kind of the center, the question at the center of the documentary is like, did the curator at the gallery who was buying these things, did she know they were fake? And that's where I think it can get really interestingly psychological because you start to go like, well, what is? art that it you know what I mean like if these are passing for this art they're not the real thing obviously but like art is also about like how it speaks to you and how it moves you and there's also all this pressure in the art world to like be selling these things did this lady knowingly participate did she let herself be duped because it was like a convenient you know I don't know

so it just sometimes some of the questions there I find so interesting because then it gets into like art value. And then the other route, which is people stealing stuff for museums, I think is actually like even crazier because when you sell, when you steal something like that, you can't sell it. Like you, like, so let's say you have like a Picasso and it's worth $35 million, which is like, then we're also getting into a place of like what even is like something worth because it's just like a value we assign to it. Right, which is crazy. So when you buy it, When you steal it, immediately that value drops like 90% because you can't sell it to anybody who will pay that price for it because they know it's stolen. And so like the most you could do would be try to fence it to, you know, somebody on the black market for like $4 million, which is like still a lot of money.

Let's not get that wrong. But like, but oftentimes people wind up doing it because they love it. So they'll just have like a garage full of like artifacts that people discover after their death. It's just such a strange. Sorry, we've got a we've got a land shark of a golden retriever under the table. He feels fascinating about art too. He does. He's like it's very upsetting to him, the idea of forgeries.

So I don't know. So it just to me it raises all these interesting psychological. Like it's a very particular criminal who kind of engages. and a very particular kind of person who's taken in by some of this. But then some of it's about the kind of secrecy and oddities of the art world that allows things like this or like creates the space for something like this to happen. You know what I mean? So I don't know.

I'm fascinated by it. It is fascinating because I know there was, I'm trying to remember, I don't even know what the story was, but there was some kind of story during the pandemic about the way that, yeah, like the way that mega. like uber wealthy people kind of you I feel like it was in a tax write off type since

100% they would just they would just have like shipping containers of like art that wasn't even being like hung up or used or anything but they're like oh it's an investment or something like that yeah for sure art becomes this like for the Uber wealthy it becomes

like a yeah like a tax shelter or like a you know know, like a way to kind of harbor investment funds that avoid certain taxes and like avoid. I don't know. And then, I mean, that's such a crazy idea. You're going to spend like all this money on something and you're not even going to display it. Nobody's going to get to see it. To me, that seems like such a waste of the art, you know? Yeah. I know. And then when you were talking about value, just how we even, how we even come up with like what something's worth because like sometimes what it's worth. is what we assume or think we could say someone would pay for it.

But like sometimes that hasn't even happened and it's still worth that much. And it is so weird because like the forgery is so good that it gives you the same feeling. Right. Why isn't it worth the same? Right. Right. And like, you know, I, I'm sure that there are much more art savvy people than me out there. and I can understand, like, if you think you're buying a Picasso and it's not, you know, it's, it is a forgery, it is fraud.

And at the same time, I'm with you where it's like, on a fundamental level, art is about the way, or actually, that's not true. I think one of the things art is about is the way it makes you feel. And then I do think there's a way in which it's been co-opted as status, right? Like, those people are buying a Rothko, not just because they think the Rothko is beautiful, they're buying it because it's a Rothko. And you get to say, like, I have this on my wall. And I don't know. That's such a strange thing as somebody who's like creating, you know, both of us creators of content and like art.

I don't know. I would be such a bummer if somebody was like, I'm going to buy all the rights to your book and then pack it away and nobody's ever going to see it. But for me, it's the status thing that like I have it, you know? Yeah. It's kind of when you were saying status too is making me think of like runway. like couture looks like some of them are so absurd and like people are just buying it because they're like oh i have the new thing that like was weird on the runway totally totally and that in turn

that thing is like this says something about me as a person my value my ability to like buy this or do this yeah it's so interesting yeah Sutton's track who is on real house so it's Beverly Hills was like that. Like she'd be like, then this is this vintage piece. And like it's, she's even around like fashiony women and they're all like, it is not cute. But she just gets to say like I bought it straight off the runway or whatever. Right. Whatever that's called. I can't remember right. Maybe that is what it's called. I think so. Yeah. Clearly I'm not in a, I'm not buying anything off the runway so I don't know. No. Um, yeah. Yeah. But it's just, yeah, it's so interesting.

I mean, there's something to that. There's something so interesting about the way that, like, these things that are art pieces that are like, even those kind of absurd things you see on the runway, like that's a master craftsman, right, who's sitting there and doing all of these things. And then the way it becomes consumable. I don't know.

I think that there's, I don't even know what my question is there about it, but I'm like, there's something that doesn't, like, work on some level there with that to me. Yeah. Well, and when it is about like owning things for status, it does, that just makes it more confusing a little bit. Yeah. Where you're like, do you appreciate this or do you just think you should?

Did you ever watch white collar on, what was that on USA? I didn't. The like gist of it was that he could both. detect, well, he basically got caught doing forgeries. And then Matthew Bomer, beautiful man that he is. He is. He's so attractive. He was able to like help the, what is that white collar crime unit, which is why it's called white collar. Because you have those skill sets. But so it's like that's always interesting to me in stories too. The like someone who like when you have like hackers who like start working for the government to like like protect against hackers

totally so like then there's like that whole level of like also the person who can tell a forgery is someone who can forge forge for sure for sure and i i think yeah i love that like that's one of my favorite things in fiction or honestly in documentaries um so i guess i'm me um of where it's somebody who has the skill set that's so like different from like what you and I are doing in our everyday life and you get to kind of like live in that for a little bit, you know, and see the way that they apply it. It's, that's like one of the great experiences of something like that, I think. It is. Are you like really into like when I say art, I know it means all kinds of things, but are you into like paintings and that type of artist? You know, I, for a long

time I wasn't. And I don't have like a huge encyclopedia knowledge of art. Like when I, I was at the residency in France in February. There were so many visual artists there. And they're kind of working on like a lexicon that like I don't even, I'm not fluent in and I don't really always understand where I'm just like, I like it. I like the way it makes me feel, you know, like not this is in the tradition of so-and-so or whatever. Yeah.

But yeah, I think I struggled to click with like, like I would always love going to like natural history museums. I love history. I love the like way that that feels kind of immediately applicable and then didn't go to art museums for a really long time until I was just like maybe mid-20s and then went to MoMA in San Francisco and saw a Kara Walker exhibition and was like, oh, art is just about the way it makes you feel. And it was like it was like a light bulb. And then I was like, oh, like this is fascinating, you know. And so since then, it's been a bigger part of my life, for sure. And like I said, there's something I'm like weirdly obsessed with the crime around art.

Like one of my favorite podcasts in the last couple of years was, what was it called? I don't remember what it was called, but it was about the death, the death of artists. Anna Mandietta. And she was, in my opinion, possibly murdered by her husband. And I would probably give a stronger statement if that didn't feel like potentially libelous, but like slanderous. Yeah, allegedly. And it kind of unpacks like a lot of the, not just the crime, but like the art world

and the way that like we struggle to. And I think we see this, and I think you and I have talked about this, but like when bad people make great art, like her husband, who may or may not have murdered her, is like himself a very famous artist whose art has like revolutionized certain things in the art world. And the woman who was hosting the podcast, her kind of point, she was both unfolding it as like a true crime podcast, but it was also like, I think it was called death of an artist actually. It was also kind of like looking at like why. Why do we not talk about this? Like, why is it that, like, we see his work and there isn't an asterisk about her life or, like, her death, you know, that, like, he was, he was certainly involved in, if not the architect. But, like, and it's that sort of thing that we've talked about before of, like, what about a director who's done something horrible but has made films that are really meaningful? Like, how do you kind of hold both of those things? Does one outweigh the other? Or can we find a way to talk about them together?

And I don't have an answer. If I did, I would probably be writing columns for the New Yorker. But, like, I think it's a, it's a question we're all having to reckon with, right? It's like people we like and love are, you know, doing bad things. Well, there's a lot of them out like that. Like, this Nickelodeon stuff is very, like, like, it's very terrible. I guess that's the main word that I can come up with. But it's like, it's also these shows that so many people have nostalgia about.

And you're like. it's just so conflicting i'm sorry he's gotten something else hold on i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i totally get it so i'm sorry yes yes i love dogs um but i don't have any and uh yeah so my i thought my house was dog proofed but evidently i had left like a little with puppies especially yeah yeah So sorry about that. We were talking about Nickelodeon and the like quiet on set. Yes. Such a title.

Isn't that title? Just like whoever thought of that had to be like, I am God today. Totally. Totally. Totally. Totally. What happened, but the title is fantastic. It really is.

It really is. I haven't watched it yet. Have you watched it? I haven't watched it. I've just been hearing about it and seeing. the, it sounds very sad, obviously. It sounds super sad, and it also sounds like, yeah, the point you were making before this dog ate everything in my household, what, like, I remember those kind of golden years shows of Nickelodeon,

like all that and like different shows that they're talking about. And now they're talking about all these horrible things that were associated with it. I mean, it just is so sad to think. think of how much joy that brought us as kids and now where that is. Yeah. It is. It's really, it is confusing like now when you think back on it. Like the Amanda Bind stuff. Like, yeah, it's just like I feel so bad for her. And she was so funny from like early on. So funny, so talented, so charismatic. And now like seems like somebody who, you know, I hope that she is in a place or winds up in a place that's good for her and also seems like she's gone

through a lot of pain and destruction based on things that sound like traumatic, you know, that she was witness to or party to. I was just reading a book, Everybody Knows by Jordan Harper. Have you read it? No, you mentioned it, but I haven't read it yet. Yeah, it's destroying my life with how good it was. But it kind of, it's like a Hollywood Ellen. noir and they take a really interesting angle on stuff like this. And it's cool. Yeah, highly recommend. It's a great book. Yeah.

But it's such a painful subject. And like, I think we haven't quite figured out how to, I don't know. I mean, we all know what's wrong. Does that mean that we throw out everything about it? No, but I think it gets complicated when it's like this person was a piece of this larger thing that had value. Right. Like I can say like I'm not going to listen to Michael Jackson music anymore or something like that. But when it's something like a film where it's like this person was involved, but so were like 90 other people.

I think it also gets like a little more complicated. Yeah. Like all the upstein like every movie he's ever been associated with, it'd be like hard to just. I mean, not everyone rewatches once, but it would be a lot of movies to swear off of if you were going to let like just him being a part of it be the problem. Right. Right. Or like somebody like Bill Cosby who has like deep meaning in like the comedy community and like diversity, equity, inclusion and also like did terrible things. And it's like this hard to hold. Yeah. Yeah. Like it doesn't it doesn't mean that he didn't have huge like huge impact. That's the like none of that gets a race technically. Like it still was like opening doors for other black men or women as well in TV. So it doesn't go away, but it is so conflicting when you're like, but you're not the person I want to be the one who paved the way. Totally. Totally. And right. And then it's like sometimes I ask myself the question, too, of like, do we need our artistic heroes to be good people? I mean, and granted, I'm maybe not talking about like the Cosby and the Weinstein's and the Epstein side of it. Like the, but you know, when when you hear about somebody like, let's take first.

example, John Malaney, whose timeline of when he seemed to get together with another woman versus the end of his marriage, which, right, and which we don't know the full extent of, right? Like, we just know what they, but it, it sure seems like possible there was some overlap. Yes. And so you're like, what, do I need to like this person to enjoy their comedy? You know what I me doing i like i i'm not going to be in a relationship with him do i or like do you find or is the better move to find solidarity with the white i you know i don't it's like it's a it's a it's a confusing because i follow his ex-wife and i follow him and i watched his new special and thought it was incredibly powerful in terms of like the way he managed to talk about like his addiction and

all of that experience while being funny and like sharing like stories without like shame keeping him from sharing them was like so good like it was one of the best comedy specials ever but like I still see like her posts sometimes and I'm like man that had to hurt a lot totally totally and like honestly she seems rad and I'm excited about her new book and like not a not a fan of what happened in his personal life and also like aware that I actually don't don't really know what happened in his personal life. You know, there's just things we're gleaning. Yeah, I know it's a weird like complicated conversation. Yeah. Because it's also like it's I think cheating is horrible and I don't understand why you don't just get out of a relationship. Like that just doesn't make sense to me.

But is it like really a crime to totally crucify someone for too? That's. It's like even, I think you said you don't watch Vanderpump rules, but even the Van derpump rules of it all with the scantival. It's like there are so many things I hate about him. He really is very textbook narcissist. But is there like the very small part of me that also like understands that like he cheated. And like lots of people have cheated. Like so many people have cheated. And like it doesn't become national.

news. It's not televised. There's not footage of it. So it's like it also it also isn't like every now and then people act like he killed Ariana. Like every now and then people act like he murdered her and you're like he didn't murder her. Like yes, it's deplorable. But like sure. He didn't kill anybody. He didn't kill anybody that we know of. And no, I'm totally with you. And then I also think on the flip side, like it's also fair game for her to like monetize that and own it. And like, you know, she's in this, like, very public place. Same with John Mullaney's wife, which like, allegedly her book that's coming out does not talk about him at all, which I was like, damn it. But like I also could understand that like men who've wronged me or whatever.

What's the title? Yeah, it's something like all the men who call me crazy or something like, yeah, something like that. And like, I also very much understand that like maybe she doesn't only want to be known as like John Mullaney's ex-wife. So like you may not want to lean into that. But like I also, if she blasted him in that book, I was. I would be like, fair play to you, sister. Like, go have at it, you know? I think that's always the case.

There's a, who is I hearing? Man, I can't remember. I was hearing someone on a podcast talk about, like, I understand you don't, oh, this was also reality TV. This was about Mauricio and Kyle from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And someone was saying, like, because he has his own show now selling Beverly Hills or something like that. So now he's kind of talking.

about what being like around like the Hilton's and Kyle was like and someone was like maybe you don't need to do that like someone was just saying that and it reminded me and Lamott has a quote that's like something about like you can share and own and write your experiences and if people wanted to be written about fondly they could have behaved better. Oh, I love that. I've always felt that way where it's like even if you're going to you could have sympathy for two sides of a situation. both people reserve the right to talk about what they went through. Totally. Totally. And like, or it also makes me think of, I mean, that, that quote is epic and I love that. And I'm going to start, like, writing that in my, like, cards I send to people and just be like, just a writer.

I'm a writer. Treat me well. Or it will show up in a book. But, like, it also makes me think of Nora Ephrains saying everything is copy, you know, and, like, writing that epic, like, burn it all down book, heartburn about, like, her husband. having an affair and leaving her for another woman when she was seven months pregnant and like just being like yeah I'm going to make art out of this just so you know right right yeah like at least use it that's it we talked about story genius last time you were on but she talks about how like sometimes you are going to write the most like emotional story if you're picking like a misbelief for

your character or an obstacle that you've overcome because you're going to be able to like authentically come from that point of view. Totally. It probably fits with that quote, which, because I'm this kind of person, I am going to read it directly. Oh, good. I'm that kind of person, too. I'm like, I can't help myself. But the direct quote is you own everything that happened to you, tell your stories.

If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better. So it's great quote. But that is the direct quote. I love that. It's like you can still, yeah, you can still. yeah, you can talk about your side of it. And I'm interested in her story, too. You also never know.

They could have been kind of separated at the end. That's like all the other stuff where it's like you don't know. Totally. I am a firm believer in theory and practice. I am probably way judgier than this. But like in theory, like no one really knows what's happening in a relationship between two people except for those two people. And sometimes not even them.

But like, you know what I mean? No matter what it looks like from the outside, it doesn't mean we know the. side of something. And like, that I think is like also a hard thing. And I think it's actually just hard for humans to hold that about like famous people in general. You know what I mean? Because it's kind of unnatural to know as much as we do about these people that we don't actually know. Like, I don't think like evolutionarily we have been like, I don't, that's not what humans are meant to do. We're not meant to be like, I know everything about Kyle and Maricio's breakup, but I don't actually

know who they are, you know? At all. So there becomes this weird attachment to it. So I think the parisocial stuff on that level, it feels very, like, human. I understand why it happens. And at the same time, I think we would all do well to be like, I don't know Taylor Swift. I don't know Beyonce. I feel like this is where our conversations always end up. That's what I was saying about.

I love that we always end up with like no one really knows people. Like take that as you way. Totally. And we're like, especially Taylor Swift. None of us know her. We all really think we know her. We don't. Their vacation pictures came out.

I don't know if you, I mean, if you're on an extreme, probably not one of them. Yeah. And like one of them was like Taylor and Travis taken on the world. And I was like, are they taking on the world? Are they just walking to the beach? Right. Like I'm sorry, which, which like entrenched systems are they upending? Systemic racism, capitalism.

Like, what do you mean they're taking on the world? Yeah, like they're in the Bahamas wearing. bathing suits. They're going on a short vacation that costs more money than most of us make in a year. Take it on the world. Oh my gosh. I saw some some brilliant account did a breakdown of like where they were staying. Not that I'm promoting. We need to like stay where everyone stays. But it was like after they had already been they left at this point. But the place they were staying is like I think it was a real estate account. That's why I thought it was so brilliant because it's like that's the kind of content you should do.

Totally. It's like $15,000 a night and you have three butlers and like two maids. Like they were like breaking down everything. And like you're like, of course, like beach front. Like you're right. You just like walk out onto the beach and the butlers will come on the beach with you. And I was just like, damn. Wow.

That is expensive. And I know it's not to really either of them at this point. But like that is I can't even wrap my head around it. And I'm not judging it. If I had money, I would do it too at some point. But I can't even wrap my head around it. It's a whole other life. Totally.

It's right. And that's like, I think like, so this is kind of goes back to the art crime thing. Like I think we have all the last couple of years like been so fascinated and not in a positive way necessarily. And I shouldn't say us all. But like I do feel like these kind of stories that come out about like I think the New Yorker had a story a couple of years ago about like the lives of the super rich on yachts. And it's just this world that like, none of us actually like that's the stuff that they're actually doing is like so far beyond that they're like it's not even like they're in the same world as we are you know what i mean the things they have access to and like it's just is so crazy yeah no it totally is i yeah i wonder how you even do write a book about it when like you have no clue what the actual mega rich are doing well i'm trying to and i know yeah all i can do is research uh yeah But I don't know if I told you this.

I'm sorry. I'm also a little bit allergic to this dog. I'm a disaster today, Kate. I'm sorry. No, you're okay. So I got asked to do some like documentary commentary on a noir film, which was like the coolest highlight of my life. And I got to do it.

This was a couple weeks ago at this really fancy mansion in Los Angeles. Angeles in a really she-she part of town called Hancock Park. And I walked in and I, it was like walking into the movie of like Chinatown. Like I don't even mean like the set of the movie. I mean like the movie. It's like you walk in. They've got these like alcoves where it has like trophies they've won that are lit up. And you go into the living room, except it's not the living room.

It's the music salon. And there's a balcony where they would have live musicians playing on Friday nights that they would bring in. There was a secret room behind this room. There was like a massive pond in the backyard and beyond that there was like a child's playhouse for the daughter of the house who had lupus. So she never in the 50s. So she never grew taller than like four foot six. So everything is built on a small scale. I was just like even that seeing something like that is so outside of my like that felt crazy. And that's like not even as wealthy as they go. But it It was just such a, I felt like I'd walked into a different world.

You know what I mean? Like, it was just beyond beautiful. And like, who lives like this? I don't live like this. It would be so amazing. Yeah. What would you do if, like, you had access to, like, the Uber wealth? That's a great question.

So, first of all, I would want to live somewhere isolated. So I don't even know exactly where that is. But, like, I mean, even just the fact that I live, like, I lived in, like, a vinyl village neighborhood where, like, tons of families live here and it's, like, densely populated. So it's like, we're going into summer and I'm starting to hear mowers all the time and kids screaming. And, like, kids reserve their right to scream. But, like, I don't want neighbors. Like, not, I want, I want, like, land around wherever I lived.

I don't know if I would want to live on the ocean because I haven't been to the ocean very often. So I guess I don't know if that's exactly where I'd want to live. But then like I think I would I would want to be, Tyler and I've actually talked about this before. Like I want to be like close to like movies or TV shows or something in a way that like if I'm interested I could like talk to the people who wrote it or all of that. Yeah. I like never want to be famous. myself. Like I think it would be very cool to be like on the outskirts of some of those things or like projects that I am interested in. But I live in Indiana for now. But without like being thought light, if that makes sense. For sure. I was going to say it sounds like you want to move to L.A.

And I'm here to support that. I know. I know. I don't not want to move to L.A. How about I say? In Austin, we have so many more like friends lately in Austin. Like Austin's, seems really cool. I don't know. I would want to get close to projects that are more interesting than what I do now. I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, I like that. So some sort of like isolated castle, maybe on the beach, maybe near like a cool industry of film or books or different things. Yeah. Less mowers and children. I fully support that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. I would. Yeah, totally. I would probably, honestly, like, I would probably buy a villa, like, in the south of France or something and be like, I go here every, you know, three months or whatever, like, and then, uh, and then use

it as a writing retreat for other artists in my spare time. That's what I would do. That would be so cool. Yeah. That's the, I would, yeah, I don't even know all the places I would want to have houses. I haven't traveled much. So I would need to do some of that. to figure out there you know. I feel like, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like I'm on all the food that's in Europe. Yes. Compared to here. Totally.

Such good. And like, I've like food tours in Europe. You know what I mean? Like that would be the dream. Yeah. Like if I, if I had just enough more time in my life, but also maybe I'm just not, I'm not great with my hands. But all of this is headed towards like homemade pasta or like it's not from a box. Like that's where I was coming from with like Europe food too. Can you tell that it's like an

hour away from my dinner time while we're recording? I know. I'm like I'm pretty sure we're about to be like, all right, what do you want to eat right now? You know, like that's where I'm headed with this too. No, totally. So, okay, so here's the plan is we just commit like a little bit of art crime. Like we either become master foragers or we like steal something. And then we just like travel through Europe and eat fresh made pasta. Yeah. Oh my God.

And then just post up somewhere and read for like four days straight. All the time. Literally all the time. That sounds like perfection. I'm curious. Like how long do you give a book before you DNF it? like so if it's I feel like I at least want to get to like 25% normally since I like read my

Kindle that's probably more the way that I think about it but it's it's like if I have been struggling the whole time up to 25% I will definitely just like DNF if it's something where I can tell that like maybe a bunch of plot threads are going to come together, I might get more into the 50 or 60 percent. Like I think it's going to like pick up and that it just is a slow burn. Like if it's a really slow burn, it just doesn't hold my attention anymore lately. I hear you. And there's like, I don't know, we're just inundated with content constantly,

whether it's like books or TV shows or movies or Instagram or TikTok. You know what I mean? It's like something has to like grab your attention and stay with it. So I get it too. Yeah. Yeah. I did see one today that I am so excited about and it felt like something that would be up your alley too. It is, it comes out July 16th and it's called Where Are You Echo Blue by Haley Krisher?

Yes. Yes, I have seen this. Yeah, it's the, I do know about this one. I follow her on Instagram and I think it's like, well, was she like a 90s teen star or something and she goes missing? Like, yes, that's so up my alley. And nobody like cares except this. Everyone's like, oh, of course she disappeared. And there's like a journalist who gets obsessed with it and is like, no, I'm going to figure out where she is.

And I saw it on Instagram, just or bookstagram, whatever, when I was scrolling it. And it said for fans of Evelyn Hugo. And sometimes that doesn't mean there's any mystery in it. But I still always want to know. And so when I read it, I was like, this is mystery. and Evelyn Hugo adjacent and so I'm so excited. That's awesome. Yeah, it looks great. I'm super

excited to read it for sure. That's up my movie. The cover is really cool. Yeah. Have you been reading anything? Or just what you already talked about? Jordan Harper. So, and I just started Society of Lies by Lauren Ling Brown. I have an early copy. Yeah, I got to, she,

I met her actually at a bookstagram event a couple months ago, and she's lovely, and she's a debut. And so she sent me her books. I kind of, I think gently, friendly, bullied her into it. I was just like, oh, my God, your book looks so great. You know who would love to read it early? Oh, me, just me.

Just putting that out there. Just email it. Send it to me. And she was like, all right. So I'm reading it now and it's great. It's really, it's good. It's like dark academia. Yeah, it's great.

I'm the most excited for that one. and Steph who's been on this podcast as well. She and I both have it on NetGalley. And so both of us and both both are so excited about it. But like I also have like 12 more before chronologically, you know. So like sometimes I would probably read a July book in June. Yeah. Or sorry, it's August.

It's August. In August book in July. But like both of us are like, are we just going to like break out of our like regimented like read them in order? because we want to read, we both want to read it so much. It just sounds like it. Oh, for sure. Yeah, it's, it's really good. I'm really enjoying it. So I think, I think you'll like it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. She's great. I hope this book takes all the way off. So maybe I'm just going to have to read it. I don't know. It kicks off with a bang for sure. Like, it's, it got my attention very early. Yep. Do you read, I don't know if we've even ever talked about it. Do you dabble in like sci-fi thrillers at all? Not, not. I do. course that's right even so i'm really when i'm her that just came out from oh yes um yeah i don't know how to say her last name i'm sorry sarah

but i'm so i'm really excited for that one that one sounds really good too it does sound really good it sounds like an incredible premise i think my friend megan collins actually said she got to read it early and loved it so anything megan recommends i'm on board for yeah that one just came out this week. I'm pretty excited for that one. Yeah. I randomly did not get it on that galley. But speaking of books, you said you had a couple that were loosely related to art crime as well. I do. Yes. So I am a huge fan of noir at the bar events. I don't know if they, I know they have them all over the country. I don't know if they have them near you, but they have a very thriving chapter in

LA, headed by a writer named Eric Bietner. I'm sorry. The dog is once again attacking the table. He is, what's going on in your doggy brain, my friend? And when I was there at a noir at the bar event, I met this woman, Alex Kenna, who is an artist. She's a lawyer. She's a writer. She has a kid.

I was like, you are wearing a lot of hats. And, yeah. And so her first book, so she has a series of books. She just announced the second one, but the first one I believe is called What Meets the Eye. And it's about like a private eye, but it all is around the art world. And so she is a really interesting writer doing interesting stuff kind of with the art world and on a PI and like highly recommend her stuff. Nice. Yeah.

And then there's some good, some good non-fiction. Ooh, that cover for what meets that. eyes so cool. Right. Isn't it great? And I heard her read and she was just fantastic. So like, highly recommend. She's, she's great. Another one that I'm thinking of is called the art thief, but it is nonfiction. Let me pull up. I can't remember the last name, but it's about the most, they think he's probably the most prolific art thief in the world. And he's somebody who would go into museums and steal pieces of art evidently shockingly easy to do like truly sounds like it right and like hundreds of art pieces um and but never sold them just kind of like collected them and he lived in

his mom's house and he was like up in the attic and was just like nobody come up here because it's full of treasure and then eventually gets caught it's it's a it's a crazy fascinating story um yeah yeah and so that's a great one in there. It really, it really was. So that's one. I'm going to my good read so that I can double check and see the other ones. Another one that I love. I am obsessed with this author. I don't think I ever see her enough on anything. It is Lisa, I'm sorry, Barbara Borland. Do you know her? She's written, her third book came out last, no, came out in 2022 called the Force of Such Beauty.

It is one of my favorite books of recent years. I recommend it to everybody. She just has this way of writing. She's just so alive. Barbara Borland, The Force of Such Beauty. It's kind of a behind the scenes look at like someone who is like in a Megan Markle position. This woman is a former Olympic athlete.

She marries the crown prince of this small country. And it's like the dark side of the fairy tale, but it's so well done. But anyway, that's her most recent book, which is not art crime. My brain works in circles. Her second book, Fake Like Me, is fiction, and it is about art. And this woman who's trying to basically recreate all these paintings that she's already sold, but which went up in a fire. And so they're not the original.

So she's already doing, she's like forging her own work, which is kind of this crazy concept. But then she's at this artist residency. and one of the artists has gone, like went missing years before, I'm sorry, killed herself years before at the residency, and she's trying to figure out why. And it's just like this beautiful thriller, very literary, very, like, just wonderful. Her prose is just like unbelievably stellar. I believe that one was actually nominated for the Edgar as well.

Oh, wow. Because it is really a fantastic book. Yeah, it does say that. Edgar Award nominee. Yeah. So the art thief is by Mike. Michael Finkel. And that I highly recommend. That's the story of the most prolific art theft. And then another one, this is sort of about art and it's sort of a crime novel, but it's also kind of like magical realism, like a little bit speculative.

And it's a novella called My Death by Lisa Tuttle. And I don't even know how to describe this one. It's short. It's like 100 pages. So if you're like looking to like get through something quickly, it's about this. woman who's a writer and her husband has died. She hasn't written anything since he's died. And then she decides that she's going to write a biography of this famous artist who has this kind of like crazy life. There's a big mystery at the center of it. And like, that's all I'll tell you, but it goes so much weirder than that in the best possible way. I don't know how Lisa Tuttle's brain works, but I'm obsessed with it. And there's a forward of it by Amy Gentry, who's a thriller writer, crime writer that I really love. And she is actually the person who turned me on to Lisa Tuttle.

She was like, you should read this book. And when Amy Gentry sends you something, it's like, I think you would like this. You just say, yes, ma'am, please give me more. Can I am another? Yeah. And so it is, it's great. Yeah. That's cool. It's a very trippy cover. I mean, so is the time. Yeah. Yeah. That is very cool. It's a trippy book. Like my friend, I recommended it to my friend Olivia and she read it and then was like, can I call you and talk to you about the ending? And I was like, yes. And so we were on the phone for like an hour trying to be like, what did you think of it? Like, it was so good.

I love those moments when you're like, I just enjoyed this and I need to find someone to talk to you about it. Totally. Like half the reason I started this podcast. Because I was like, I need to talk to people about these books. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Do you, what about you? Do you have other books that you're excited that are coming out or coming out soon? I do have. So there's, so when I, when you brought this topic up, I was like, oh, that's such a cool topic. And then I was like, wait, have I read any books with art theft in it specifically? But I ended up sending it to you. This is not totally the same. But I am excited for this book called Blood, Blood.

rubies by male and doquan um that's kind of to keep it really short it's about a woman named run who is a jewel thief um and over the course of a week basically her life completely unravels after she thought she was doing a typical job just getting some rubies from a bangkok hotel room of a wealthy smuggler. But then more and more crazy stuff starts happening. It kind of feels like it's almost like a, like a spy thriller, but in terms of like what she gets into,

but about a jewel thief. So I'm very excited for that. I'm excited for that one. That sounds great too. That sounds right at my alley. It's got like interesting like a heist, like you said, a spy thing. Almost like kind of Indiana Jonesy like a little bit in there.

Like that sounds like. sew up my alley. I'm excited about that one too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about that one. Yeah. Go for it. Okay. Sorry. Another strange rambling digression, but one of my best friends here in L.A. works at the Natural History Museum of L.A. and was able to give me like her own little personal tour. They're doing a like a gem exposition right now. And so they have this one of the biggest diamonds that's ever been cut in the world is there. And like this thing is like,

like incredible. It is actually bigger, but they cut it down to make it look more because you couldn't set it into any jewelry. And so it was originally owned by the king of Egypt

and then he was overthrown and somehow the queen of Nepal ended up with it and then that was overthrown. And now they like, it had been somebody, so the last time it had been seen, sorry, I have a dog here who's very excited about this ball.

The last time had been seen was in the 1930s. And then somebody, like I want to say, like 10 years ago, calls the Natural History Museum. And he's like, hey, my dad just passed away. He had a secret vault in Switzerland. And when we opened it, we found this priceless diamond that's been missing for like 70 years. Do you guys want to display it? So they were like, Sure. Yes, absolutely. I think he had a relationship to the curator at the Natural History Museum. So he, like, knew that, like, he reached out to them about it. But, like, it's just such a fascinating. I mean, it kind of, again, goes to our idea of, like, I don't know anything about this guy's dad. I'm not suggesting he stole it. But it is also a unique move to have one of the premier diamonds in the world and just be like, we're going to put it in this Swiss thing and nobody's ever going to know about it. And you're kind of like, what's the story there? So that's what when you, um, yeah. Yeah, so that you're, that book made me also think of that story and just like, what else is in a Swiss bank vault somewhere, you know? And what's the book?

Somebody's going to write about that. Right. Well, coincidentally, I'm reading a book right now called The Lockbox where the premise is an ex-military woman has like switched to being a like a safecracker. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of fun when I said it. Right.

I see it right there. The expression on your face was like, I can't be it. I guess I don't say that word out loud very often. But like normally does like really routine, just like helping people who get locked out of their own safe. Yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden she's ambushed at a job.

And then. this her captor trying to make sure this is all kind of in the synopsis i'm not i don't think this is yeah this happens very early on her captor also um kidnapped her kid and like is telling her like you have to open this huge ass safe that they like have in like i don't know some some building um and like you have this amount of time to do it and she doesn't even know what it is on the inside that he wants. So, coincidentally, I'm kind of reading something about weird things in safes. Serendipitous. We're all kind of like circling the same things. Yeah. That's cool. It is. It's been pretty good. The only other books, though, like books that I have read that were similar,

I don't know if you read Yellowface by R.F. Kwong this year. I did. I loved that book. okay and that one like so that one's about basically uh june who is not achieving literary success and her like kind of friend Athena Lou and I'm making sure I'm not giving anything away in this synopsis I know right because I know exactly what you're talking about yeah yeah so Athena dies um in like a freak accident like not expected and June is in the circumstance where now she has access to a almost complete manuscript that Athena wrote and Athena's been popping off so now she has access to it and she runs with it yeah but it also brings up some similar questions because she does like change it

it's like she does edit it a little bit and so then there is all the intriguing like no she She doesn't deserve the credit for it. No, for sure. But she also was a part of how it became a final product. Totally. Unique. And there's lots of satire. Lots of satire.

Such a unique, compelling voice in that book, unlike anything I've read or read for a long time. And also, like, the way it goes in on publishing was very interesting and satisfying, too. Yeah. No, he did not hold back. No. In that book. It's very, yeah, there's like a lot of really punchy humor about publishing, which I don't completely know about it, but it was fascinating. And then really similarly, when I was just interviewing Addison McKnight, who's a writing duo, they referenced the plot by, I don't know if this is Jean, Jean or Jean.

Corollets. And I have had this on my TVR for a very long time and just ended up forgetting about it. And so she referenced it. And that is a really similar plot, but it's basically a professor of an MFA program named Jacob. He has a student named Evan Parker who says he has a really good manuscript. And he's like, yeah, whatever. And then he reads it and he's like, wow, that is actually really really. really great. And then I don't know if this is the same thing. Does Evan Parker die? Yes. So he dies.

And same thing has access to someone's previous ideas. So clearly it kind of shows up as that shows up in two books. Oh, for sure, for sure. And that's interesting. And I wonder if that's like, I mean, to me it seems like the like an interesting fantasy maybe that like all of us have had or like, idea of like, okay, what if you could do this thing and get away with it? Like, these people are dead. You're not necessarily hurting them by doing it, although you probably are. But like, you know what I mean? And I think it gets at like some very like interesting human questions, this kind of set up. Because clearly we like as like I, there was other, there was like a Bradley Cooper movie, right, where he like discovers a manuscript or something and he takes credit for it.

And then somebody finds out that it's like it's not his. So like there's something about this setup. that we like keep returning to as like something interesting, I think. It is. That we're trying to work out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a fascinating idea. It really is.

You had a great job. I know, me too. Me too. And I, when I finish the class, maybe I can come up with like my little like list of like, here's 10 interesting things you didn't know about art forgery. And I know I mentioned this before we started recording, but something that was interesting that came up already in this class is that the, instructor offers like a, I think it's like two or three week certification in Italy where you can

like become certified as like an art crime forensics expert or something. And so like that is now one of my new life goals is to like go some summer and be like, yep, like let's show up and go. Oh, that would be so cool. Wouldn't it be cool? You have to document it and then we could talk about it for sure. For sure. And just be like reporting today from the art crime scene, you know. Yes, totally. That would be so cool.