Bookwild - Ashley Winstead: In My Dreams I Hold a Knife

Episode Date: December 29, 2021

On this episode, I talk to Ashley Winstead about her book In My Dreams I Hold a Knife.You can also watch the episode on YouTubeAuthor LinksInstagramGoodreadsWebsiteCheck out the book hereIn My Dreams I Hold a Knife SummarySix friends.One college reunion.One unsolved murder.A college reunion turns dark and deadly in this chilling and propulsive suspense novel about six friends, one unsolved murder, and the dark secrets they’ve been hiding from each other—and themselves—for a decade.Ten years after graduation, Jessica Miller has planned her triumphant return to southern, elite Duquette University, down to the envious whispers that are sure to follow in her wake. Everyone is going to see the girl she wants them to see—confident, beautiful, indifferent—not the girl she was when she left campus, back when Heather’s murder fractured everything, including the tight bond linking the six friends she’d been closest to since freshman year. Ten years ago, everything fell apart, including the dreams she worked for her whole life—and her relationship with the one person she wasn’t supposed to love.But not everyone is ready to move on. Not everyone left Duquette ten years ago, and not everyone can let Heather’s murder go unsolved. Someone is determined to trap the real killer, to make the guilty pay. When the six friends are reunited, they will be forced to confront what happened that night—and the years’ worth of secrets each of them would do anything to keep hidden.Told in racing dual timelines, with a dark campus setting and a darker look at friendship, love, obsession, and ambition, In My Dreams I Hold A Knife is an addictive, propulsive read you won’t be able to put down. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. I would like to welcome Ashley Winstead to the podcast today and she is the author of a book I read just a couple months ago. It might have been even less than that. In my dreams I hold a knife. I love psychological thrillers. I'm pretty obsessed with that genre and stay pretty close to it most of the time. And this one had me like on the edge of my seat the whole time. And I know I was staying up until like one or two a.m. trying to finish it, which is late for me.

I know some people, that's not very late, but it is for me. So, welcome. Thank you so much, kid. I'm so happy to be here. and just very overjoyed to have lost you some sleep there. If I'm allowed to say that. Yes, I guess you probably are trying to help people lose sleep as an author. I feel bad. But yeah, it's always like, oh, you know, I had a terrible book hangover and now I'm so tired today. And I'm like, thank you.

I'm thrilled to hear that you're sleeping today. The worst part too, when I, worst part, when I read a really good book is like part of my book hangover is that I'm nervous to start the next one because I'm like, especially when it's like a five star that I just read, I'm always like, oh, this next one might only be like a four star book. And then it's like so disappointing. So I was definitely, I definitely finished yours and was like, oh, no, is the next one still going to be good? Thank you so much. That makes me so happy. I hope it was.

I hope it did. I've been on a pretty decent streak this year, but yours was very good. So I'm just going to ask you some kind of general questions, just about you and kind of a little bit about the book. And then we'll get into more questions about the book later on. So if anyone just hearing this beginning part is like, wow, that sounds like a book I want to read and you don't want to hear anything else. Stop when we get to that point. But for now, just to kind of start off with some of the general questions, when did you know you wanted to write a book? book and or when did you know that you wanted to be an author? I love that. So I'm one of those like afflicted souls who has only ever wanted to do this. So curse from an early age to want to pursue a life as a published writer. And I, you know, I have very early memories of like taking elementary school writing assignments way too seriously, like pacing around my room, thinking about the language. And if I chose this word in a sentence, what would that do to, like the rhythm and everything. So very obsessed in early age,

went to undergrad to be a writer, really, to study English and creative writing, which I did. And my senior year of college, I thought, well, of course, my next step to be a writer is to apply for MFA's because I was really entrenched in, like, academia. at that point, school was really all I'd known. Couldn't really fathom that you could just go out in the world and be a writer. And the MFA is a master's in fine arts, just in case anyone didn't know. Okay, cool. Exactly. And it is a path for a lot of great writers. And so I thought that will be mine. So I applied to like at least a dozen MFA programs, my senior year of college, and just got flat out rejected from all of them. Like mercilessly it felt at the time. And I took it hard as a 22-year-old.

Things had been like smoothly sailing up until that point. And I think, you know, that was also around the time that I got into a really serious car accident actually and had to recover for months with physical therapy and actually relearn how to use my dominant hand. Oh, wow. And I'm totally fine now, but it was a rough period of time. I bet. I think all those things combined to just make everything feel a lot worse than it actually was. And so at 22, I did the one thing writers are never supposed to do, which is take rejections

at face value and just say like, okay, you have now told me I'm a bad writer. so I will accept this as the truth. And I didn't write for a decade. Oh, man. I lost 10 years of not writing. It's one of my biggest regrets that I wasn't just persistent. And, you know, I did other cool things. And I, I don't regret having any of those experiences. Like I got to work in the entertainment industry and the music industry and I got to go to grad school. And that was all really wonderful. But I just wish that I could go back and tell my 22-year-old self, like, literally this is the first of a million rounds of rejection, so just hang in there. But, yeah, anyway, I, so I knew from an early age that I wanted to write books, but felt very, very, let myself get way late. And then I, I don't know if you would like to hear

the rest of this journey, which is a happier, yeah, yeah. have your section, but it wasn't until I was finishing my PhD in English. So I always, you know, circulated around books, even though I felt like I couldn't write them. I was finishing my PhD and I had spent, you know, years working on this novel length, um, academic work, right? Your dissertation. Yep. And I trained myself to work really, really hard on my own. and without anyone needing to tell me what to do. And I, at the end of that process, I told myself, like, I had this realization that if I applied that level of work ethic and grit to something that I actually took a lot of pleasure and no offense to academia, but, you know, it's dry. Yeah. If I actually

did that, then maybe something could happen. And so I, all the, as soon as I started thinking about writing again, all the fears from like 22 years old reemerged with total, you know, further very vividly. I bet. Yeah. And I told myself like, okay, you are going to write because the idea is exciting and it feels more fun than like watching Netflix. So this is just what you're going to do instead of watching Netflix, not as a thing that you want to make into a career, but only to have fun and enjoy yourself. So that's honestly how I started. was like, I'm going to write a book to amuse myself. And I wrote over the course of a year, just working nights and weekends,

because I had a full-time job at that time. I wrote a contemporary YA fantasy. That was my first book. And I was really proud of myself. And over the course of a year, just me and my laptop, I gained a lot of confidence. That's so cool. Yeah, I was like, you know what? And so by the end of that year, I thought to myself, let's, let's actually like put this out into the world. And so every step for me has been a process of like psyching myself into it, trying to convince myself to take risks because I'm a very risk averse person. You know, like me too.

Yes. Yes. I don't know if it's like the introverted thing. Yes. Or just like the also the phenomenon of when, you know, succeeding is really important to you. It's terrifying to try something that you're not sure you'll succeed at. Yeah. Yeah, that was what I thought was kind of cool. Now I'm like going to end up totally off topic. But what was so cool about that is that it was like when you decided to have fun with it that it actually worked. So I totally resonate with like a hyper achievement oriented mindset like ruining stuff. And so it was. kind of crazy when you're saying that because part of why I'm even doing this podcast is I do a lot of stuff that's just for work and it is still really, really cool that we get to produce stuff for other people. But I've been like, what do I actually love? Like, what would I want to produce? And I love reading. And when I was younger, I thought I wanted to be an author. It's not off the, it's not off the table, but I haven't written anything. So, but that's so cool that that that was like kind of part of how you got to it too because even like doing this podcast is kind of

something a little bit like that for me. I love that so much. It's so cool. And I was already so honored to be part of this and now I'm just like beyond. Yeah. Thank you. So it's such a, I love when things line up like that. Yeah. I will and I know yes. So I, I, I, but it is. I feel like that's what happens for so many of us is like the pressure of the pressure can get to you. Yes. And if you're able to convince yourself or like trick yourself into doing something when it's just for like the pleasure and the passion. Yeah. And the sudden like it opens up and you can actually do the things that you wanted to do.

That's so cool. I totally agree with you. So that being said, what is your writing process like? I know lots of people approach it all kinds of different ways. So what is your approach to it? Well, I've already confessed to being like a high achievement obsessed person. Yes. Which also comes with like an extreme type A personality for me.

And I'm just like very organized. And that helps me feel like I'm safe to be creative. I'm making myself sound like a really like I totally connect with that. Not a fun person to have at a party. Okay. I totally connect with that. Yeah. My, my husband and I work together.

in a creative of field. And it's the same thing. Mine is like, I can be creative when I have it like regimented and in order and he can just like spread out and take his time. And that's not what it is for me. So I'm with you. I love that so much because that's also the pair that my husband and that's so cool. So it's I wonder if like different minded people gravitate towards. I think there's like a form of balance. Yeah. Yes. So that that all made. manifest in the fact that I'm like an extreme plotter. I first, I have this whole process and I do the exact same thing for every single book. Nice.

Routine, queen of routines. And so I have my story genius, which is a book that I, by Lisa Kron, that it's a craft book. I highly recommend it. I don't know if you use it. I've definitely heard about it. Yes. I could not recommend it more. I'm a pitch wars mentor this year and my mentee is using it in her revision.

So I use it every time. And what it helps you do is it takes a brain science approach to character development. Okay. And the argument of this book is that people really get addicted to reading or find stories really compelling because your brain is hardwired to want to experience other experiences, but in a safe. way. And so reading is a way that allows you to like get inside another person's head and experience all of their, you know, whatever's happening in the book in a safe way. And it actually, their thought processes model, you know, like options or things that you could do. So it's basically like this really argument about like reading being this really immersive experience. And so I found it really

compelling. I've used it from writing in my dreams on all the books I've written since then. So I always start with the idea of my main characters in my head. And I do the story genius method where I deep dive on to figure out who this character is. So not stuff like what their birthday is or their favorite color, but like what is it that they want most in the world, even if it's a thing they can't admit to themselves. You know, like, you have to know them at that level. And what is their fundamental misbelief that they learned growing up that still kind of shapes their actions? I was like very present in your book. That's what was so impressive to me. All of them were like that. All the characters were like that. Well, that is because I story genius to all of them. I should send

Lisa Kron like, oh, thank you. Yes. Ask it or something for helping you so much. Yeah. Yeah, that is that. And I, it's, it's so smart and compelling an approach to me. So I, I took it with dreams. And, um, you know, I, I'll, I can maybe talk about the, the specific process of starting dreams and how that idea came to me. But basically for all the books, I start with the character development. I do some character mapping. And then I plot out my books at a, um, meticulous. detail level like 40 to 60 page outlines where I'm going to do every scene. Sometimes I'm even starting to write dialogue in the outlines and doing all of that makes when I'm done and I can see the entire thing. Then I'm like, okay, now I can draft because I know exactly where I'm going and I don't even want to start sentence one if I don't know how I'm going to get to sentence final. Yes. So that's my process. And so you start out with the characters is what you said. Do you have like any idea of the plot at all or like do you come up with characters and then a plot materializes purely from characters? It's usually actually starting with the characters and like having a vague sense. So dreams was a little bit different.

Dreams was I started with a character, Jessica, the main character. Yeah. Mary, a character of feeling, which was deep depression. Yes. And a vague sense of what she was going to do. Okay. Okay. And I knew it was going to be a murder mystery.

And then the more I started thinking about it, that's when the ending came to me. And I was like, that was the second thing that I got. Okay. But with my other books, it's like, usually when I'm working really hard on writing one book, completely different characters will spring into my head, you know, taking a shower or something. And I'll start to see these other characters doing something. Like, I'm writing this romance about a rock star musician. and she's a woman struggling with grief.

And I just started seeing her so vividly on stage in my mind. Wow. That's usually how it goes. And then I'm like, okay, what's the story that I'm going to tell around this person? Like, why is she experiencing this? That's usually how it goes for me. That's cool. Because like every time I've thought about, because like I like twisty books and I know

there has to be so much planning that has to go into making a story like that work. So anytime I've always thought about it, I've always thought like I would know exactly what like the plot was and then I would have to fill the characters in around it. But that's like super fascinating that you kind of like feel the story once you feel the characters. Yes, that is the perfect way to put it to. That's cool. I always start with the emotions and the characters and the like big, big people who are feeling them. Yeah. That's so cool.

Yeah. So, I guess, and then what prompted you specifically within my dreams, I hold a knife? Was there something about murder mysteries that stuck with you, or was it just the characters all came to you? So it was the characters, and I felt like they could only be in a murder mystery story. Yeah, that's very true. And so, because as I mentioned, I started writing books by, but with a YA contemporary fantasy. Completely different genre, age group. And I actually was able, my big break, so to speak, was getting into pitch wars. And I don't know if you're familiar with that mentoring program. I've like something I vaguely heard about again.

Yeah, it's, I like not to. share too many details about it. So it's a really well-known mentoring program for unagented writers. Okay. You have a manuscript, know that it needs revision, aren't really doing very well in the queering trenches, but they can't figure out why or what needs to change about their manuscript. And so the beauty of pitch wars is, and it's a completely volunteer-run program, just other writers giving back. Okay. Freely. And you, if you get in, then you have a mentor who has selected you

and you spend a few months just gutting and revising your manuscript according to their suggestions. So you do that. And at the end, the shiny like golden ticket experience is that they hold what's called an agent showcase. Oh, okay. Yeah, normally as a writer, you're always, you're sending out pitch letters queries to agents like you're going to them like begging them to take a look at you and this agent showcase flips the dynamic the power dynamic and it puts all the um snippets of the mentees manuscripts up on a website and the agents all flock and so it's usually like hundreds of agents will come so it's a really buzy thing so when i got into pitch wars i thought that after a decade plus I was finally on the verge of making this dream happen.

And so I worked tirelessly to edit my fantasy. I was really proud of it. Agent Showcase happened. And I crashed so hard. I flopped so hard. Oh, no. Yes. Like I got, I want to say five or six agent requests.

And other people were getting third. 30, 50. No. Yes. Oh. And but, you know, like, heartbreaking. It was disappointing. Yeah.

And I will say like the other thing that made it hard that I did not anticipate was over the course of those months, you, I, I, I, everyone does, all the mentees became close. So I had all these new writer friends, which was awesome. But I was not expecting or prepared for the gut pump. of crashing and burning while they were soaring. And, you know, it was like the news. Someone's just got, you know, seven agent offers and they're signing and this other person is doing this.

And it was like a barrage of other people's great news at a time where I was like profoundly gutted. Yes. So I went to a really dark place. I've learned now that this is actually a common experience. agent showcase. It's like a thing that people don't really like to talk about. Right. I was feeling really bad and I was feeling like, you know what, no matter how hard you try or how many years passes. You're still getting the same answer. Why do you keep doing this

yourself? So I allowed myself to have a dark night of the soul. Yeah. Where I was like, you're going to wallow for one night. Then the next morning you're going to pick yourself up and you're going to like swallow it like an adult. You have like processing capabilities and you're going to move on. But tonight you're going to grab that bottle of red wine. You're going to turn off the lights in the house. You're going to lay down on the couch. You're going to drink from the bottle like a feral animal.

And you are just going to stink all of your terrible thoughts. Yes. And I just let all of my thoughts run wild. Like these were things like my jealous thoughts, my terrible dark fantasies. You know, these were all the things that I knew. I could not tell another human soul. Right. They were so shameful.

Like, nothing is as stigmatized as, you know, being jealous of other people. I know. Yep. It's, you really did some shadow work, basically. Yes. Yeah. In the midst of all of this. Yeah.

You know, I still, you know, in the midst of all of this, like, I started thinking to myself, I'm going to wake up tomorrow and move on. But what if? What would a person look like who could not do that? Who, like, didn't have the emotional capacity or whose identity was so tied to what the world told her. Who the world told her she was, that she had to do whatever it took to make sure that those things lined up. And that the world reflected back to her what she wanted to be. And so Jessica Miller, the main character.

So I was going to say, it sounds familiar. Oh, yeah. Jessica and she just came to me and I had my first image I had of her was her pouring over her reflection in the mirror in her bathrooms. Yeah. Like searching for flaws, thinking really critically about what she looked like and how it had changed over the years. And that scene actually shows up in chapter one. Yeah. So she was like a hook. And the minute I had her in my head, I wanted to know what she would do. I knew she was capable of really dark things, but I wanted to know what those things were,

where they would take her, and how it would end. And that's really, that hook grabbed me. And the story, like, I swear. So fascinating that it, like, came out of that and that it really was,

because, like, so I've been in a lot, I've been in therapy, or I did a lot of therapy in my early 20s for a lot of what you just talked about. their achievement and looking right and presenting well was the bedrock of my childhood, I would almost say. So there was a lot of work that I had to do on that. So it's fascinating that basically you had a moment where you were like, okay, I'm going to let myself feel really

bad. And even kind of saying you were going to think all of your bad thoughts that you had about yourself even too, which like I'm in a phase of life right now where I'm learning how much resisting isn't what helps. So so much of what you did was like even like surrender to what was there. And then you actually like got a whole not that you're always going to get a great story out of it, but the fact that like a whole story was spawned out of that is so cool. Yeah. First of all, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. That means a lot to me, especially because it's, it's very similar to my own path. And so it's just, it feels so nice to be able to, you know, have that in common and share that. And, you know,

I, I went through a lot of years of therapy myself, you know, struggling with these things. And, you know, we talked a little bit about high achievement earlier. And, and I've learned to have a lot of forgiveness for myself and, like, love for myself, even in the, you know, the uglier corners of my brain. And part of my ability to do that has actually been like almost a storyteller approach to myself. Yeah. And it's like through therapy telling the story of myself and my life to a therapist, the context of who I was as a person unfolded. And I was able to see like, okay, I don't like that I do this, but I can tell why I do it. Yes. And that being able to do that, created opened the door for empathy for myself and that's actually what the whole goal of

writing in my dreams I Hold a Knife was for me with Jessica and with the other characters to some extent too but none more than than hers I wanted to write a character who by all objective measures did a lot of terrible things and had ugly thoughts that you know you can't look at her thoughts and not call them ugly, but I also challenge anyone to call them like, aw, or abnormal, right? And so, you know, I share all of this about like the creation process for dreams still feeling really risky when I do it, like still not feeling wholly comfortable for two reasons. And one is that I don't want anyone to assume that Jessica is just like one-to-one me. Right.

it's like auto fiction or something. Right, right. Because she's not a self-insert character. Like she became her whole, sprung into her whole different thing. But also, so there's that concern sometimes I worry about, but also just that some reactions to her are very negative. I bet. Yeah. You know, just as a like a casual observer, it's fascinating to me. And I know this, I know not liking women, female characters who have negative traits is like an issue that many writers face. Like there's a widely known problem. Yes. So it's certainly not just like dreams alone.

But I constantly am a little bit amazed by people who say that she's just so wildly out of touch and, you know, bat shit or, you know, like completely. I'm like, really, I would love to know what it feels like to be in your head. If these are not thoughts you've ever had, you're like, you can't tap into that. Yeah. I actually had a one book event that I did where the moderator, who was another writer and a wonderful person, I really still admire their work. But they opened the question to me by saying, so Jessica is a monster. What? How, what was it like to get in that headspace?

And, you know, obviously you roll with a question like that. Yeah. You know, as one does. But I've reflected a lot on that since. And I think it's actually, I think people's resistance to her is very telling. It is. I would agree. monster is like the othering of the things that I suspect people aren't willing to confront

themselves. Yes, I would agree. That's one of the, when you, when you brought that up just initially, it was making me think I use good reads a lot for just finding new books and reading reviews. But one of the things I know to look for when I'm reading is like, I, love seeing almost an anti-hero would be like the happier word for it. Yeah. And culture, like to your point, I mean, that's the word men, male. That's what I was going to say. Like, to your point, when when it's breaking bad, it's okay because it's two men, but you want to say monster, bitch or whatever when it's a female. Um, but one of the things I do a lot when I'm looking at reviews is if something is like in the three to four star range or maybe in that like

three three something um sometimes that means it's because the reviews are really split and you're seeing really high ones and really low ones and anytime the really low ones are like that i couldn't like any of the characters and the characters are so horrible and their thoughts are so i'm like okay so i so this is probably actually a really good book because of all the four start four or five star reviews and this is just some of people who are like and to be fair you don't you don't have to read books that explore that you don't have to but if that's the complaint of a book I'm always I'm typically that's like one of the indicators that I'm going to like it more so that's kind of funny that you brought that up because I like that like and it was what I really loved about your book so I

we can kind of transition now into stuff that's a little bit more spoilery so if you haven't read it go read it or listen and go read it anyway. But one of the things I loved was all of the characters were very imperfect. Like it wasn't just her. And it did feel like all of them were, they all, they all felt so real. That's another thing that can happen in, in things that are so, in books that are so focused on the plot twist or even just the plot. Sometimes the characters don't end up feeling real. But like everyone felt real and they all had, I mean, literally you've just now said it at the beginning. But I could tell what had you called it a misbelief. Is that what you said they call it? I could tell what each of their misbeliefs were. And so that's what it was almost,

it was so compelling in a murder mystery format too, because I feel like, I feel like that's how you were also making it seem like everyone had alibis because it was kind of like their misbeliefs were their alibis. So my question was going to be, was that on purpose? But clearly that was on purpose. And you've kind of answered that. But I had a question kind of written out that a lot of their wounds or the things they were trying to overcome were so related to something their parents had told them or something about what they grew up around. And so was that kind of intentional that you were also kind of trying to show how desperate we become when we're so focused on what our parents or anyone kind of growing up told us we should be. Yeah, but I love that question. Let me just start by saying that. And like just the fact that you called it all of their wounds is just so spot on because when I started doing all the characters,

work that I described, my idea was to turn each of the character's misbeliefs into their motive, right? So like to to use who they were as people, what they had mislearned about the way the world worked, to actually hook that to the reason why all of this group of people, for people who haven't read the book, it centers not just Jessica Miller, but all of her friends from college. There was a group of, they used to be seven, now they're six, but then there's someone who's latched on to it. So it's like fluctuating.

So anyway, it's kind of large ensemble cast of friends who all came together in college. And each of them might, each of them kind of oscillates as, since we're in spoiler territory, each of them oscillates as a potential murder suspect. for who was it who actually killed Heather Shelby, are unfortunately a dead woman at the center of the book. So I, yeah, I was when I was thinking through all of my different characters,

I actually started with Jessica and Heather. They were my touchstones. I knew I needed to know those women inside and out and then build the rest of the characters in relation to them. And so what I did was I did those deep dives on who Heather was. who Jessica was, and then I set rules for myself in creating the other characters. Not only was it going to dive deep into them, figure out who they were as people, but also I was going to make their story and what they wanted linked in two specific ways. So for each of the characters,

the rest of the East House 7, I wanted them to represent something to Jessica that she wanted but could not have because that's at the core of who she is, you know, wanting but not being able to have. So I need each of them to have, whether it was money, beauty, natural talent, social, grace, whatever it was, you know, they needed to represent something, hold something she wanted. And then conversely, each of the characters, I wanted their, the thing that they wanted most in the world at their, their dark core. had to be something that Heather could threaten. Yes.

So that she was like in some way linked to their fundamental, you know, human misbelief. Yes. So I set all those rules for myself and it was a fun puzzle to work out who each of the characters were with those parameters in place. And I swear that I have like a really healthy relationship with my parents. You would not know it reading any of my fiction. Yeah. But so much of what dreams is about is about being a young person confronting a world that is shaped and structured the way that it is and having to decide if you're going to fight it or swallow it. And the majority of the characters in the book swallow it.

Yes. And then like let the privilege institution of higher education or the social higher. or academic competition or their own parents, you know, all of these different institutions of authority. Like they all let them shape their lives. And so I was really interested in telling a tragedy about what happens when you don't resist what you know is actively hurting you. But instead just keep trying and trying and trying and beating your head against the wall to achieve a thing that you know is always receding as you grasp for it. Yes. And that's probably the through line through like every book that I've ever written. It's like a theme I constantly return to

is this like addiction. Yes. Many of us seem to have to things that hurt us. Yeah. And wanting them and being and being like obsessed with them. Yeah. So that's what I was trying to do with each of the characters. And yeah. When you're a young person, 18 to 22, which is how old the characters are in the past timeline. The book is a dual timeline. Yeah, which is also my favorite. Oh, good. Yeah.

It had to be because so many of them are just so locked in the past. Yes. I want to actually take readers there. Yep. But when you're that age, so much of your understanding of the world is shaped by your parents. It is. Whether it's a healthy relationship with your parents that can, actually sometimes do not great things to you because you're like living up expectation. Yeah.

Or if it's a, you know, a fraught or even, you know, abusive relationship with your parents, you just, they're your first foils, like your first. It's the first thing you become familiar with. Yes. And it's like your first, one of your first yardsticks to measure yourself and who you are and how, how well you're succeeding and what your value is in the world. Yes. Is by your parents' approval or, you know, that's, that's kind of just an early measure. Yeah. And so as I was developing each of these characters, I joke, I jokingly call this my daddy

issues checklist. Yeah. But I, you know, I was like going through and I wanted each of them to have fraught relationships with their parents. but in different ways. Yes. And so I think probably none of the characters so much as Mint and Jessica. Yes.

I just really put the full force of fraud. Yes. Issues into. Yeah. Yeah. So that was really cool. Back, so you even kind of, in answering that, mentioned how, like, Heather was going to always have something that the others needed as well.

or wanted or were reaching for whatever terminology kind of fits. But so what I took away from the book at the end of it as well was that the one character who was close to secure in herself is the one who ends up dead. Spoiler alert, we've already done it. So was that intentional as well? And was it kind of like it sounds like from the way you were planning at your characters that it was, but that basically the insecurities of other people are what played into the secure person dying. Yeah. First of all, I love that you, like, that's the perfect

analysis, and I was doing that on purpose. And part of it was that I think one of the things that is always very mystifying to me are people who just have natural confidence and seemed to glide through the world, really on some sort of like cloud. And I feel like what I wanted Heather to be was someone who each of the characters loved, you know, despite what I said about being threatened by her in fundamental ways. But like each of the characters loved but could never really figure out or could never really take advantage of or master because she was in some ways apart from them. And what that way was, was as you said, she had a sense of maturity and self-confidence and

self-security that far surpassed everyone else's, especially Jessica's. Jessica does try to analyze it. Yeah. And she wonders about Heather constantly. Like not only what is it that makes Heather so popular or what makes, what is it that that allows Heather to get these things that I want Jessica Miller over and over again when she doesn't seem to earn it. And I thought the way the world worked was that you earned things. Right. She's not only trying to figure that out, but she's trying to figure out like,

Heather seems to have this really easy relationship to morality, like to understanding what's right and what's wrong, being able to tell the difference and kind of move on with her life. And she does use that as a weapon throughout, like, throughout the story. But it's like this really comfortable sense that she knows what's good, what's bad, and that she rests comfortably in the good. Yes. And Jessica surmises that that comes from living a life where that is just constantly reinforced for you. You know, like Heather lived a life of privilege, not only in terms of well, but in having a really happy staple, she's like the only one without preparing issues. And she has just like this had this unchallenging life. And the first thing that challenges her

is like the most epic thing that could challenge you. Right. Yes. Yes. And so I wanted Heather to be this kind of almost dreamy, unreachable person for the very fact that she was simply, emotionally secure. Right. Yeah. That was how I interpreted it. I remember like when I was just kind of taking notes afterwards and I was like, wait, because I had kind of like taken all the notes about like, okay, so this person was insecure about this and I had started kind of noticing like, oh, so every time we learn about one of the characters in securities, now we think they have motive. And then at the end I was like, oh, and she was the only one where like we didn't, I mean, everyone's kind of insecure, but we never experienced like a really big drastic thing with her.

And it was just all of her insecure friends being around her that didn't turn out well for her. I know. That's how life works too, isn't it? It is. It is. Yep, that's kind of what I was thinking. Because one of the other things I really noticed, there were multiple occasions where something happened because something happened because some. someone else did it.

And Jessica didn't do it, but she benefited from it. And so there was, there was, it was kind of, I feel like every single time that happened, the phrasing was that things had a way of falling into place without me having to do anything. So for me, that felt like an exploration of like, uh, it's, uh, is good and bad, like a clear line. Is it black and white? And is knowing something happened and not doing anything about it? Does that actually absolve you from being a bad person? Is that, yeah, does it absolve you from that? Like, are you actually good? So is that something you were kind of playing at too? Oh, absolutely. And I wish that I'd ever been able to summarize it as clearly and eloquently as

you just did. So I'll be listening to this later and writing, transcribing that down. Yes. For future interviews, Will credit you. Yes, that is exactly. And so I, when I started writing this book, I knew that, and this is a total spoiler. So like, if anyone, if anyone is hanging on and doesn't want to be like really spoiled flee now. But yes. I always knew that Mintwood was the person who killed Heather. Okay. I knew it had to be him. But I also knew that Jessica was guilty. She was. Guilty, guilty, guilty. And I actually did do a few different rewrites of what exactly she was guilty of. Oh, okay. Testing out different things. And the thing that, one of the things that actually emerged through the writing process and less plotting, it was almost like discovering that I was building this thing without even realizing it was

Jessica, like her huge wound is that the world constantly overlooks her. she's invisible, you know, this is like she, her teacher doesn't even know she's missing. Yes. You know, it's just over and over again, this gutting experience of not mattering, almost to the extent of like not being a person. Yep. And so what she learns to do, which is smart, but also tragic, is weaponized that very passivity and weaponize that very overlooking. Yes. And it's almost like you, can't blame her because if you know it's like you backed a girl into a corner what else is she going to do to like to fight um yes but at the same time it's go it escalates into a really really

dark lesson that she learns which is like step by step you know oh i'm not going to um point out that my high school rival's test paper went under the desk yeah And now I've been crowned salutatorian. Oh, I'm not going to do anything, mention anything about or do anything to stop, you know, the release of a sex tape. Yep. Of my rival sorority member. And on and on. And so it was escalating in her like risk taking of using this weapon.

And so I knew finally when I got to that scene. everything like the scene at the end of the book when it's finally revealed what Jessica's guilty of, um, I knew that it would be the almost like the final heaviest version of this thing that she'd been practicing. Yeah, like kind of a compulsion. Yes, exactly. And so I knew that, you know, she would do that and that that was at the root of her inability to

parse herself, which is something I say over and over in the book to speak to what you mentioned of like really struggling to understand if you are good or bad, what you've done is good or bad, because her weaponized passivity exists at this really gray place between good and bad. And of course it's bad, you know? Yeah, yeah. Of course it is. but she struggles with how to understand herself or read herself, read what kind of person she is.

And like if she has, she has her clear arc in the book is from finding herself illegible, and in that illegibility, leads space for her to be a good person, right? There's, of course, like high motivation. to not call yourself a bad person. Oh, yeah. Or not, like, confront these things that you've done.

Mm-hmm. But moving from that space to finally seeing herself clearly, like really looking at herself in the mirror metaphorically and saying, like, okay, I see myself. Like, this is who I am. This is what I've wanted. I can't deny it any longer. I returned to the sight of the trauma.

You know, like the original wound. I replayed what happened. I went back in time and now I am looking at myself. Yes. I've been. And that's the arc that she has. Yes. And people are like,

oh, you know, Jessica rides off into the sunset. Yes. Well, I loved it. I loved it. Thank you.

I was pulling for the romance. I was like, this is why. I'm like, this is not what I should be pulling for, but I'm totally sucked in. That makes me so happy. Yeah.

Yeah, I couldn't. I mean, I was left questioning myself at the end, I guess, is what I'm saying. What does that mean about us? I know. Right. There's nothing wrong. I actually saw, I was journaling about it this morning, but I saw a Carl Young quote where he talked, where he was saying, basically the gift of being able to see the light and the dark in yourself because it allows you to be the thing in the middle. And how much that helps. like drop the need to judge yourself even as good or bad. Like obviously you don't want to do just really truly terrible things, but there's so much, uh, in terms of like head trash that I'm working on where it is about being able to like see myself in the gray space because I'm actually not all

good. I'm not all bad either. Not that I'm trying to use it as an excuse for anything, but that when I, when I saw that quote yesterday and then I was thinking about our interview today, I was like, oh wow that's like so similar to the book i love that so much and i'm stealing head trash yeah to use in the future and it's kind of funny that you mentioned him because i went back and read my Freud nice before drafting um no it was before doing a major revision um because i did a lot of studying Freud as from a literary theory angle uh-huh less less psychology and more just like theory. Okay. So much of what I was trying to do in the book. Because I know that they were contemporaries and, you know, played off each other a lot. Yeah. And what I was

trying to work with a lot was A, the idea of repression, of course, that I think that one comes across like Mary. I almost said repression earlier. Yeah. Yeah. It's heavy handed with that. But also the idea of repetition compulsion. Yes. As a as a response to trauma. It is just like continuously returning to a thing to to to in an attempt to master it. Yep. For anyone listening who isn't familiar with that. Yeah. It's kind of this theory in trauma studies that, you know, re, rewounding yourself. That's a word. It is yeah. It is like a is actually a more common response. to trauma than one would think. It seems counterintuitive, but there's a lot, the logic to it is that as you grow in time and as time passes, you think some part of your brain thinks that if you can

just return to the thing that hurt you or the sight or the scene or the person, this time you'll do it better. This time you'll master it. And that like that seems like the best way out, the truth is out. Yeah. And so I was really trying to work with that not only at a plot level with like obviously just returning for reunion right um that most that could yeah that's like a perfect setup that's like the repetition compulsion uh plot it's probably why it shows up in the in so many like especially timeline hopping ones yes i really think that that is such a huge part of why the reunion trope remains so popular yeah and i know we actually saw a lot of it this year with with like lori elizabeth floren's book the girls are also nice here

which i loved um but just yeah a lot of reunion themed books because i think it's like this really really powerful psychological and emotional potential yes to return to you know yeah things that shaped us and hurt us especially yeah so the repetition compulsion that was a big thing we learned about my husband, I both did therapy together. It's a lot what you do with your partner. When you have unresolved trauma, a lot of who you marry is typically a repetition, compulsion too.

Because the same thing you said, you find someone kind of similar because you're kind of like, I'm going to be able to make it work with this person. So like this situation feels similar to the relationship with my dad. And I'm going to master it this time. So you end up like picking something. and sometimes you're just picking a like basically a losing battle or you have the opportunity to

kind of like both grow through it, which is the fun part of therapy. Yeah, that's the whole part of. I was going to say, by the way, there is no greater segue to my second thriller than what you just said about. Oh my gosh. Marrying, repetition, compulsion, all of that. That's awesome. Is that the one, the fool me once or is that another one?

I actually have two books coming out next year. Oh, that's exciting. A little bit, a little bit daunting. Yeah. And the Fool Me Once is actually my romance debut. So I get to me a debut again. I'm excited. Thank you.

Yeah. She basically posted about it last week or recently. And I was like, oh, I am going to have to read romance now. I haven't ever read it before. Well, if you like, if you like messy women, which it sounds like you do. Yeah. I wrote For me once as kind of like a departure. I needed to write it during the pandemic.

It's like full of sunshine and laughter and optimism. It's like very shenanigan heavy. Like I my I didn't realize it at the time, but like I think train wrecked by Amy Schumer was clearly in my head at some level. She's just awesome. Yes. The main character is very much a like, it's like the same sort of party girl who constantly makes epic screw ups and then like very nonchalant. you know, roll through them. So I would love to have that, that grace. I know. That was actually something my mom said to me because Fool Me Ones is her favorite book that I've ever written.

And she, I was really touched by when she finished reading it, she text message me and she said, I learned a lot from Lee, the main character, about how to shoulder things. Nice. And like for your own mother to say yeah i was like wow okay maybe i've done something kind of all right with this because my mother is a very like emotionally mature woman uh wisdom um and so i i was very touched by that yeah that's like you're like favorite review that's exactly like no one starts in touch because mom says learned a lot she learned something that's awesome um i think i have one other question where oh so one of the other things back to in my dreams i hold a knife was it felt like the

fear of being alone was also pretty prevalent or being abandoned kind of whatever um so just begs um meant to stay with her at one point even though she's she even know she's not totally in love with him. And then Kara felt lonely and kind of felt like she was on the outside of the group and never completely connected. So for me, the way I interpreted it was kind of like showcasing how destabilized we can feel like when we feel like we're truly alone. And it kind of felt like that was also like a contributing factor to like all of their dysfunction. Was that kind of you're thinking on that. Yeah, that's exactly it. I swear, you just saw into the heart of this book. Good. It's amazing. So I was thinking a lot about that sense of destabilization and also how when

when you are so keyed in as a human being on performing and achieving, you are always setting up this divide between yourself and other people and the world because, you know, you're always putting yourself on a stage with other people as your audience. You're not like living in harmony or in like a restful place with other people. Right. And so to some extent, each one of the characters in the book, but Jessica especially, feels that way about the world. Like Frankie is performing constantly. Jack is performing. Carrow certainly performing. And it's like this, I don't, for them, it wasn't a thing that they could say or recognize why they felt so desperate to force these connections. And but I had to know why as the writer. And that's why it's that division that you set up. And so I think like for some characters, it hit them more. Like, for example, Caro, it was very core to who she was because she had always spent

her life on the outside. And the East House 7 in college was like her first experience flying, storing, being a part of something, like looking out into the world and seeing, seeing faces of a, you know, not appreciation, admiration looking back. You know, like when she moves through campus with the rest of her friends and people are looking at her, that's a look she's never experienced, you know, a reflection she's never seen before. And it's so valuable to her because she, unfortunately, like everyone else in the book,

is looking for that feedback loop to inform who she is. And that's why, you know, I wrote a lot in that scene about Caro, observing the way her friends moved through crowds with such meticulous attention because that's something that was always at the forefront of the mind

and for some characters though I'm thinking of Mint in particular like he did always understand himself as performing as well because he was very highly aware that he was always

being looked at. Yes. But he had he had never experienced that look, that negative feedback loop really. It was always like adoration, respect, envy, you know, all the things Jessica wished that she could have. And but the closest that he ever saw it was when his dad crashed and burned. And, you know, was cheated on by his mother and then became rather, laughing stock when his mother refused to feel bad about what she had done and instead like made made everyone see how weak his dad was yeah so that was like that negative model for him of what his father would had been who his father was that he could not be could not allow yes and then the first his first experience so you have all these other characters all of his best friends who are dealing

with rejection and negativity over and over. It's like a relentless gauntlet, like poor Jessica Miller. Yes. Relentless. And the first time he experiences it, yes, the things that happen to him were terrible with like his family crumbling and his fortune being lost, but first time he cracks. Yeah. Because he is not used to it. He's so entitled. He's grown to believe that he's He doesn't, he has things, once again, this like concept of toxic meritocracy. You get things because you've earned them at some level. Right. Life works according to a logic of earning.

Right. Bullshit. But it's still something so many people believe. We want it to be true. We want it to be true. It's still something that is like structurally written into our society with like grades in school and the hierarchy of getting into what schools did you get into and oh you're such a smart kid you're such a shining star you got into Harvard um or your second rate because you've gotten to like

they're there's there's southern ice yeah yes it's like and you know repeat ad nauseum with jobs and coupling with people it's just like it's everywhere even though we we claim to know that life doesn't work that way yeah um and so all of this to say like he that was part of the fun for me and the logic to me of having him be the killer. Yeah. Because they, everyone else had weathered all of this and he cracked. I always knew it was going to be my like super fragile golden boy. Golden boy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I loved it. I successfully spoiled the book. Yes. I hopefully someone went and read it or they're just listening because they've already read it anyway. But yes, it was, it is in my top.

It's just in my top. I was going to stay in of 2021, but I'll just say it's in my top. So people can buy it. I think everyone knows. You can buy it on Amazon. You can buy is you what basically plug whatever you want to plug. Yeah. So thank you.

You can buy dreams on pretty much everywhere, books are sold, bookshop.org if you like to go indie, Barnes & Nobles, Amazon. And I will say I've gotten a lot of questions about the audiobook, which isn't out yet. But I'm pretty sure that it's coming out March 8th, 2020. Oh, that's exciting. Yes, we had some hiccups with the production, just because the world is full of hiccups these days. It is. But that is, the production is underway. I'm really excited.

You know, previewed the narrator. It's fantastic. And so I'm very excited for that to be out. And I do, I hate that it's not already out. Because I know it's an accessibility issue. Right. So I've gotten a lot of questions about that. And this is actually the first time I've announced what I think is the date that will be released.

And then double the dose. of me in 2022 with this romance debut, Fool Me Once, who, you know, I already described centers around this very messy woman. But there's no murder and everything. It's lighter and there's a lot of love. And then my second thriller is called The Last Housewife. Okay. It is out on August 16th, 2020. And it is, I'm describing it as a dark academic cult revenge thriller. Wow. That has a lot of my favorites in it too. Yeah. I just kind of like took some of the dark academic vibes and then went like, you know what would be bananas? Nice. I shot it off into the stratosphere. And I got really into learning about nexium and the Sarah Lawrence sex cult.

Yeah. Deep diving into cults, especially cults full of very successful people who, who people didn't realize, who were like operating in the world, but also part of this cult thing that was happening. So that fascinated me. So I wrote a book about what it would be like to go from, like, for example, a Sarah Lawrence college student to being inculcated in essentially a murderous patriarchal sex cult. Oh, wow. That sounds exciting.

It's dark. It's only the lightest book. And then you're dark one. I mean, at least you have range. I hope so. We'll see what people say. I'm sure you do. I did have one more question.

I forgot that I thought of this one was. So if your book was going to be either a TV show or a movie. Yeah. Who would play? You could do all the characters if you want to or you could just, who would be Jessica and Heather? Oh, hard. I so for some reason I I don't the the only person that I fan cast this yeah you call in writers do it I don't yeah um writer cast the only person that I cast in my head while I was writing the book was coop

and so for the rest of the characters and were like I saw their physical descriptions I had like vague visual images of them but I find it really hard to cast them. Like I have loved a ton of the fan cast, but the hard thing about this book is that you have two different ages. Yes. And so sometimes when I see people cast an older character, because it's clearly for the present timeline, which everyone's in their early 30s, I'm like, that person's too, oh. And I'm like, no, no, that would be right for just in the present. And so I kind of like I've Margo Robbie my friend Gare has Gare Billings at Gare Indeed Reeds has done I think like I love that bandcast a lot that he did but he did like all of

everyone in their older present time. Oh that's so cool. Yeah. Which I love. And the thing that he just really nailed on the head was Emma Roberts as Courtney, who's our like mean girl. So I really oscillate with Jessica because I feel like a lot of the actors that are fancast for her are just too beautiful. Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, Jessica wishes. Right, right. She would love to be that. Yeah, that's a good point. Beautiful. That's good point. Oh, you know who someone fan cast for her that was a really good fit? Who is the actress who was, not to say this actress isn't gorgeous, but just like, she has played a lot of characters who she's like, I think fits.

It's like the actress who was in the, of course I can't think of it. It's like unspeakable on Netflix. She has dark brown hair. Is that Shailene? It's not Shailene, is it? She looks a lot like Shailen Woodley. Okay. So you're definitely, I feel like we're on the same wavelength. But that's who I picture for Jessica, which is in essence to say, like, not someone super glam. Okay. Yeah.

Caitlin Deaver, Devere. Okay. Do you know who that is? Yeah. I don't think I do. She, that just sprung out of the ether for me. There we go. Oh, yeah.

Yes. She was in Book Smart. Yeah. Okay. I should have, that's what I should have. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yep. Someone who just isn't like, didn't spring into the world. Right. Right. But Heather, of course, Heather's also a hard one to cast because, you know, she, what you have to get right with her is just that like magnetism that defies logic, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, I would know who that.

I would not know what that would be like. Yeah. Finger, I know, like, would be nice. Yes. I write books because I'm like, ooh, and then, you know, the character is the thing that I would love to have. Yes. But I will. Did you say you did have Coop in mind?

Was that what you said at the beginning? Yeah. I'm always, so he was Timothy Shalomey in the head. Okay. Okay. Like tall gaunter. Yes. Lanky with hair that was just like its own character essentially.

Yeah. And so I know, you know, whatever everyone has their own. and I really want to reserve everyone's right to have their own coop in their head. Yeah. Because I love Coop. I loved him a lot. He was the one character who like while where everyone else kind of swallowed, you know, like I was saying the way the world worked, he never did.

I think that was why I loved him. Yeah. That was probably why. I was hoping that he would be to some extent like the voice of the reader in the manuscript. Like I often. That's a good point. I had him say things that I suspected the reader would be thinking at different points in the book, like reality checks.

That's cool. Cool. Yeah. Well, thank you. No, thank you. Yes. Thank you for talking about it. And then we'll have links.

Well, I'll put links all in the show notes so people can go find it if they want to and they should. And let's have you on again next year too when your other, when both of them come out. Yes, please. I'm being honored. This has been such a blast. Yes. Thank you.