Bookwild - Ashley Winstead's Midnight Is The Darkest Hour: Fangirl Culture, Rebellion, Vampires and Rigid Religion all in a Southern Gothic

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

This week, we talk with Ashley Winstead about her multi-faceted Southern gotchi Midnight is The Darkest Hour!  Ashley actually introduced us 2 years ago, so this is a very special full circle moment for the podcast.  It probably wouldn't exist without her 💜Follow us on Instagram:Gare @gareindeedreadsKate @thegirlwiththecookonthecouchAshley @ashleywinsteadbooksMidnight is the Darkest Hour SynopsisBeware of the dark. You might like what you find...Ruth Collier has always felt like an outsider, even as her father rains fire and brimstone from the church pulpit. In Bottom Springs, his word is as good as law.But there are things the townspeople fear more than God, like the Low Man, a vampiric figure said to kill sinners in their beds on moonless nights.When a skull is found deep in the swamp, a hunt for the Low Man begins. Suspicion turns to Everett – Ruth's oldest friend, with a dark past. As Ruth and Everett grow closer, Ruth begins to unearth the town's secrets, determined to discover the truth.But as the line between good and evil grows ever thin, how far will Ruth go to save the person she loves most? Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Guys, welcome to the Killing the Tea podcast. This is Gare and Kate. And we are going to be discussing all things, chills, thrills, and kills. Kate and I are going to be talking about our favorite books, TV shows and movies that are in the thriller or crime fiction genre, as well as some reading habits and other items related to how we met on Bookstagram that will fit in with this podcast. So, Thank you so much for joining us and we hope that you have fun and get totally terrified. Perfect. So this week we have an awesome surprise. The best week ever. The best week ever. We have our podcast favorite Ashley Winston. Hi.

Thank you so much for having me. I have been dying to be here and talk to you too. You are such a bright spot in my like Instagram. feed and in my like ear iPods earpods listening to you guys so I'm so happy to be here oh my god I'm so happy you're joining us I know people who haven't like super good about not being on social media we're just too excited we're so excited okay go on no I was just going to say Ashley probably would have been on the podcast like a lot

sooner, but she's been so good at, like, restricting herself on social media that I was like, if she's not active right now, like, I'm not going to bother her about, like, hopping on the podcast because, like, she's busy. She's got shit going on. So, you know, and plus, like, you're just giving us all these incredible stories to read nonstop. So I am not going to interrupt that writing process.

Yeah. That is so sweet and thoughtful. I would have, like, I will clear my schedule for you guys. 100% just for future note. Never busy for you guys. But this has been a wild year. Like now that I'm coming to the, now we're coming to the end of it,

I'm kind of like doing that reflective thing. I'm like, whoa, release two books, went on two book tours. One book tour was like basically a solid month long. Two weeks of which was a different state every day. One day, three states in like, 12 hours. And it has been quite a year. Yeah. I'm like looking out at 2024 and I have no books releasing next year, which is a very different pace than I've been at for like since 2021. And part of me

it's like a little fearful like will people forget that I exist, you know, well, whatever, you know, And it's just weird not to be releasing a book. But on the other hand, I'm very grateful to be able to rest. And I am right. Yes. So all my tarot cards are telling me to rest. I was going to say, when you were listing that tour, I was like, how did you stay healthy? So rest is probably good.

Yes. That's why, I mean, when I got back from the tour, it didn't even stop. as I had lined up all these in-person book club meetings, like here in Houston. And so I was bopping around. And they were amazing. And I love meeting readers. Like, I truly do. That's probably why I stayed healthy because my, like, little brook.

I was like, this is so fun. And didn't take into account, like, yeah, that is also draining, you know? Yeah. And just a lot of people would be around. Right. A lot of people. And, you know, my first three book. release during like pandemic basically.

Yeah. So my, I hadn't really had a proper book tour. And so I, and you know, book tours are increasingly disappearing for writers. And so I was just like, cease this opportunity. Like you might not ever get another chance to, you know, stay in holidays across the country and get into their life stores, you know, the dream. Right. So just like run with it. So I really did.

But yeah, no, I think it hit me hard. Like about seven days after I got home, right when I was done with all the in-person book tour stuff, my body was just like, and now we are demanding you sleep for 48 straight hours. And I was just like, okay. I bet. Anyway. But I got to go around the country and see so many of my favorite. favorite people. Hallie Sutton, Vanessa Lilly, Megan Collins, just like I got to go Danielle

Valentine, who I love. So, um, yeah. Yeah, that's an amazing, like, group of people to be around to. I know. I think your Halle Sutton episode is one of my favorites of all the time. It was so fun. It was so much fun. I laughed so hard. Oh, my God. Like, tell me that you're, Yeah, like tell me that you're going to like get me Taco Bell and like take me to like a movie theater by like a graveyard and I'm like on the plane. Yeah. I love her. Yeah. That episode was so fun. So the other fun thing that I was talking over at the beginning for people, don't know, because some people may not have heard the story. when I did an episode with Ashley two over two years ago, she basically referenced

Gare and how we both talked about books the same way. And that was how we are connected. So now all three of us are on a podcast from that connection. Wait, I did this? Yes. I thought you knew that. Yeah. I have never been prouder of,

literally any of my accomplishments. Oh my God. Yeah. This podcast is because you like, kind of like introduced us to each other with like us not knowing one another. And you like reference him in the podcast. Yeah. I basically do every,

I literally do reference you like on Gare like everywhere I go on tour. I make me, I've made so many people write down your handle. Oh. that. Because I often get asked, like, my interest in doing that is I often ask, like, well, who would you cast? Or I'm like, I don't even play that game. Go to my friend Gares. Yep. And here's his scandal. And what he does is canon. Like, that is where it is. And also, he's delightful. So you need to be following him. So it's. It's so funny that you say that too, because, every like now and then, I'm like thinking about it now and like retrospect and I'm like,

this makes sense because like every now and then I'll get like a notification that somebody like liked or commented on like a review and casting that I did for one of your books. And I'll be like it'll be like a two year old post or something. And I'm like, oh, like I can't believe they found that. Or like somebody will be like, did you cast like in my dreams? I hold a knife because like I need to see it now. And I'm like, okay, I'll send it over. So it's really funny because it's kind of like I can almost like mark when you've had those

conversations because like random notifications on Instagram. Like so one's all up in your history. Yeah. I love it. I love it. That makes me really happy. Oh, my son, yeah.

So yeah. And it's, well, the thing that struck me is just the two of you are so damn smart and thoughtful about what you read. Never been called thoughtful before. How is that possible? I usually mean in a more personal sense than just talking about books.

This is what he means. Oh. But you're such a thoughtful friend. No, I don't. That's true. To the two of you, I am. To everyone else, I'm like a little he then. Same.

My circle's small, okay? Yeah. You're like, that was, thank you. We'll sit and take care. I'll put it now. I had the best comment. I've never had like somebody who like we admire so much and like we love so much like be more complimentary to us than than we are to them. Right. That's true.

Especially because like we're like. Very neutral, you guys. We're like such fan girls and we're always like actually what's that. Actually what's sad? Like we do like usually like we do like an icebreaker. and like one of the ice breakers I've always, always wanted to do is like if you were given the opportunity

to co-write a book with an author like who would you pick but like I've never asked it because I know that we would both like you would both say you and then we would be like fighting over like who got to like write a book with you first. It's true.

I'm putting ideas in my head about co-writing books with y'all. That would be wild. That too. Yeah. But when you're saying fan girl, one of like one of my things that I've talked about I don't know with who probably just Tyler over and over and over again all year is something we were talking about before we were on air about containing multitudes so the idea of like you can just be multiple things and you don't have to just go in one direction and so like this year it's like I've talked about you as like a writer who like exemplifies that and then also Taylor Swift but in some ways same things we're like like all of her eras she really had there are some that are so distinct and so different and like you're

like i'm going to write the stories i'm like wanting to write at the time and like you're in thrillers and you're in romance so like how do you do what you do oh good um the fact that you put me and taylor swift in the same paragraph and compared my books to like her era yes yes very exciting um to me yeah i i i think It's like, it is that exact, that exact reality that within, like, Gare, you're super into romance right now. It's like scratching an itch and, like, doing something for you that you're really into. That's different than the thriller and the horror. And I think it's just, okay, surface level, I will say that it is just the fact that it is just the fact that, we all contain multitudes and there's all of those people and voices inside and you know like one day

you wake up and this is why I love fashion too but you put on your like Avrilavine punk girl skater pants and you're like I'm a little like I'm like a little skater punk girl today and then you're in your like folklore braids and you're like I'm a little cardigan wearing like Lord of self today, you know? It's like all of those things are possible. That's my like not untrue, but service level. And just to dig a little bit deeper because it's you guys. And I know that's okay and you won't like look at me weird.

But I think the fact that I grew up moving every two years and was like the oldest daughter. And so and also like a perfectionist. and a striver and a people-pleaser, like all of those things combined to make learning how to be different people to different people, like whatever people wanted to see

and whatever was going to be most pleasing to people, like it created that fluidity in me. So I feel really comfortable hopping from one group of people into another very different group of people and like being a very different person. within, like still being me, but like wearing those different parts of me, like letting them come out. And I think I, that's what I lean on or like that's what I'm kind of channeling when I'm writing my different stress with the different voices. So that's my,

my like, I love that. I love that. I answer. I love that. I mean, I gave me. I think like every time I talk to you or read your books, I'm like, oh yeah, we both been through therapy. It's very obvious. And I'm like, maybe I should try it. Well, I have not been in therapy for about a year now. So, and I think the writing is weirdly coming, flowing more than it was when I was in therapy. So I think I'm like channeling a lot of what I was getting out of therapy.

like into my books. Who knows what my 20-25 books will look like. You'll be like reading them like, oh damn, she should have been seeing a therapist. This is like, you know, too much. Well, we always like, hey, and I always like talk about how much like I love like bleak books. Like I love like a bleak ending. Like anything that just makes me like feel like my life is over at the end of it. Like I love like the darker the better.

And so completely like get where you're like. coming from with that because like if it's going to make me cry or like rip me to shreds and like that's what I want. And you know like this is probably like the best time for you because I would imagine after having like five books come out in the past like two or three years that like this is the first time that you didn't finish a book and give yourself like a 12 hour break and start your next one. Yeah, it seems like it. You know like I'll have breakfast. I'll take a nap and then like it's time for like my next book. You literally could not, like, I know you're joking, but you're, it's very accurate.

Like, no, I'm not joking. I don't know if maybe we've already like conversation or like I just like picked up on the vibe, but like that's just kind of like what I'm imagining is you're like, I'll get a good night sleep and then like I'll just start on something. Yeah. Yes. And honestly, it's not letting up in 2024. for like that writing schedule is still so I have my next thriller draft one do January 31st

and the edits to my new genre a romantic drama slash family genre do February 29th so I do have to just like oh wow do that and then you know it'll be like pitching the next thriller um to sell like so I have to dream up a whole sexy new idea um you know and like the pressure is high when it's the one that you're trying to go out and sell yeah it's like I always feel like I'm a little more creative and at ease on book two of every contract because I'm like uh you already bought this like I can do like that's how I did the last housewife that's kind of like where I'm at now um it it makes me feel like freer to take risks because there is so much pressure on selling that, you know, the book in the rhythm, in the cycle, that's like the sell book, you know,

the one you're going out with where your contract's up. So now, yeah, and you're like, oh, it has to be so commercial and what's going to sell. And that's a little more pressure, you know, because I am a working writer in that this is how I pay my mortgage. and, you know, this is how I put food on my table. So it is not like a side thing that I just do for the passion of it. Right. I have to, which, you know, there are pros and cons to that. Like, one, you don't have a, you know, con, you don't have as much time.

But there was a certain freedom when I was had my day job where I really indulged myself taking risk. Because I was like, okay, if this crashes and burns, still going to pay my rent, you know? like that. My livelihood is not jeopardized. How did we get here? I don't know. My weird rambly brain. No, it's fascinating. I like the like inner workings of it all. Yeah. Yeah. And I just can't picture anyone saying no to you. Like if I were a publisher and you were like, it happens so much. I know. I would be shocked. I would be shocked. Like that would be like my next protest that I go to would be like, don't say no to her. Like let her just give us what she wants. Because like, God, it was probably two years ago.

You and I talked about ideas because I had, like, we kind of had a very similar idea. And I was like, oh my God. Like, so I mean, I just can't imagine anyone saying no to you. Because even when, like, you give me like a two or three sentence, like, idea, I'm like, do it. First of all, I love you. Thank you. And thank you for also, like, hashing out ideas with me in the DM. It's so helpful.

That is actually the one that we talked about that we had. And I'm not saying it because like maybe one day I will sell it. I don't know. But that's the one everyone keeps saying no to. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'll just say it's like a sorority girl slasher sort of. Yeah. Twist on it.

Like a take on it where the sorority girls aren't the victims, but the like slasher. and it's kind of yellow jackets, yes. Yes. And kind of other things, that's the one that I keep pitching and people keep choosing the other options. Because I like to bring my monitors like multiple options. Yeah. Because again, people pleaser. So I'm going to give you something you want, I hope.

Yes. And I'm going to try to manage that by giving you lots of options. And then consistently, they just choose the other one. But yeah, so my publishing or writing schedule does not let up in 2024, but there's no promotion, which one of the biggest shocks to me of being a writer was what a big percentage of your time is spent promoting. I bet. And I know that this is like people are really talking about this right now. like all of the expectations on writers to know how to promote and conduct themselves online and conduct themselves in professional spaces with other writers.

And I know this is like, you know, part and parcel of all the drama. That's unfolding. And it's true that no one prepares writers for any of that. And I would argue people who are probably the least well. well positioned to like be thoughtful promoters and marketing folks are like us little nerds who want to hide behind our computers and write things, you know. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're with the right group with that. Yeah, I was going to say. I was like, so long of us. I was like, are we the best promoters? I know, right? You are. You really are. You both have like your beautiful.

eloquent speakers, you're so natural and comfortable in front of a camera and talking to writers and interviewing. That is not a native skill, I would say, for the vast majority of people and especially writers. And sometimes I will like hop into a writer, you know, doing a Q&A or whatever in Instagram live. And I, you know, and I'll be like, oh, honey, you're so nervous, you know. And like shut down and reserved and I can feel the interviewer really struggling to like get things out of that person. And, you know, I just feel back. So I'm like, you weren't prepared for this part of right. Being a writer.

But I feel like we could have an entire conversation about all things publishing doesn't prepare you for. I know. I don't have like. Post with all that free time you have to write it. I know you need more writing assignments. I'll add it to the list. Right?

Yeah. Add it to the list. I know I basically had to tell my publicist for the last two books because with dreams, you know, I had more free time. So she was like, oh, why don't you write about like all these nonfiction articles about dark academia and why it's interesting, why people are drawn to it? And it's so much fun. I like wrote for Slate and all these other places about, you know, dark. academic and student dead and like people being disillusioned by like the shiny veneer of college, but also deeply nostalgic for like that old idea of what it used to feel like to be on campus,

you know, a thing that increasingly doesn't exist. So I was like writing about all that and I had to tell her like as much as I would love to write about like, you know, teenage girlhood and monstrosity. And yeah. the Southern Gothic, you know, from, from a woman's perspective and all these things that were in my head and like the twilight of it all and why I chose to center that book in my book. I was just like, I have no time. And I've really missed doing that because it gave me so many things to talk about with people. Yeah. For dreams.

But anyway. Yeah. That's a really good point. I can imagine. Yeah. I'm sure I can talk about. I can write. my god

i could have written about this book forever like when i was trying to write my review i was like how do i say all of it so i can only imagine if i wrote it how much i could write about it yeah i could i mean in my dreams i hold a knife it's like that's like my my donatart like you know how like people talk about like the secret history yes yeah i like that is like like 20 years from now, I'm going to be that like, man that's like, I remember when this book came out. It was like the book. But like that's like my, that's like my Donna Tart book. Like I could talk about in my dreams I hold a knife until I'm blue in the face.

I love you and appreciate that so much. But I also cannot be compared to Donna Tart because she's too iconic. And like obviously she did really in a lot of ways. like give birth to dark academia. Right. So, you know, everything is owed to her. But I keep laughing because when I was a baby writer and hadn't learned not to go on good reads.

Oh. I know. No, this is, it ends up okay, I promise. Oh, that's good. I haven't learned not to go on good reads. Yeah. But there were some, there were some like one star and two star ratings of other dreams. I hold a night.

that made me laugh so hard. One was just like one star. What this bitch thinks she's Donna Tart next. That's amazing. And the other one is like two star grocery store version of secret history. And I was like, um, I wish I in my dreams stocked at grocery stores. That would be amazing. I would be a victory.

Yeah. I don't realize. I just don't think you recognize how iconic you are, though. I think it's hard to recognize. If I were actually Wednesday, I would only be wearing T-shirts that says, I'm fucking iconic on them. Like, that would be my vibe.

That is amazing. I just feel her older daughter perfectionism, so I know that you never, like, fully feel. No. There is no day of my life that I will not feel like an imposter who has hoodwinked anyone who's ever read one of my books and liked it into like being nice to me. You know?

That is like just the reality. But I'm okay with it. I've like learned to embrace it because I will never be one of those. I have met writers who could use some of a dash of. that. You know, I've met crazy people. And I'm okay because for like, it will just keep me striving. It will keep me like working. It will, yeah. I will never satisfy myself and I know that. And so it'll keep me humble. Like, humble is better than area, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Um, is it always is it always been on it? Yeah, exactly. I'm trying. Is it fully healthy? Do I have like unnecessary

anxiety sure sure putting all that stuff is um it might be part of why you can write what you write so well though because like you're like in touch with those feelings yourself and like because your books all come from like a very vulnerable place even like with in my dreams i hold a knife you still feel a lot of the characters like very vulnerable feelings like what makes them like act desperate or something and i feel like that's actually i can also like make the writing really good because you can really write those characters that have those feelings. Yeah, all of that with my characters, the toxic perfectionism, the like near debilitating sense of shame and like being a fraud, all of that came by honest, just took out of my little

brain and put it in the characters. And we're going to see if we can make a career out of writing like the worst little corners of your heart into books and figuring out ways to turn it into crime fiction. Yeah. So. I feel like it was really relevant in midnight as the darkest hour because it's a younger character too and like you are feeling her like how vulnerable you feel as a teenage girl as well and like all of really my dog is trying to scare me and jumping at me right now.

I'm just like trying to talk about teenage girlhood. And like how vulnerable that whole experience is. Even like one of the things I thought was so cool, there's lots that I loved in the book. But like one that I thought was so cool is even touching on like fan girl dumb. And like, why are we judging it? Like why are we judging people for something that like is bringing them joy? And I just love that. I love that part of the book.

And I feel like you are. the last thing that we judge girls a lot. No, you're good. No, I just like, I, it like, it never ceases to amaze me how you see my books, like how you read my books. It is such a gift. Everything that you, that I put in them, you know, it's like a trust exercise because you're writing it in your book and you're hoping you don't want to beat readers over the head with anything, but you're really hoping that. they're going to catch what you're putting down and there's going to be this mind meld. And it is just like the most exhilarating experience to talk to you about my books because I'm like, I just want to be like, yes, yes, yes, that is exactly what I was trying to do. And that's like where my brain was going. And like you summarized why it was important to me to write midnight and like what the heart of that book was for me, which was exploring like the vulnerable.

ability of being a teenage girl and all the many facets of it, you know, and fandom being one of them. And the fact that, you know, obsessive fans, like, granted, you have the Marvel, predominantly male like Marvel and sci-fi fandoms, true. But no one gets the level of vitriol leveled at them. You know, no fandoms do. Then the ones that are composed primarily of, like, young women, teenage girls. And I just am like, why, why does teenage girls having strong feelings bother people, like get crawl under people's skin so deeply? Like, what is it? And so those are like some of my guiding questions from like, okay, well, let's, let's explore this and all the, the things that it could be in this book. So that really, and as you pointed out, Ruth is my youngest character.

And I went to this bookseller's conference in Portland in September and was listening to another writer talk about her work. And she opened it up and said, like, by the way, my therapist has recently told me that whatever age characters you write is kind of the age where you've stopped growing emotionally speaking. and it's like kind of where you're stuck. And I was like, oh, God, if that's true, I keep going backwards and backwards. All my characters keep getting younger and younger, like, you know, 32, 28, like 30. Now Ruth is like 17 to 23. And I'm like, oh, God, I'm regressing. But yeah, in I school and college.

Yeah, I mean, it was this book where I was like, I'm going to, I've always, wanted to write about my teenage experience because I had a really fucked up one. But also, so like, I think you guys were just going to get a very short version of this, but I started to become a teenager. I was very shy, like good girl, straight A's, very quiet, very much a Ruth. I really put that into Ruth. And I started to like come into my rebellious teenage girl era when my parents started getting really deep into Southern Baptist religion. And so those were like two opposing forces that really, really clashed. And it was like all of these things somehow hit at once. Like I started dating a boy who coincidentally I met in church.

But I started dating a boy who was a little bit older. than me and we found out that he was like a sexual predator um yeah yeah and i did not want to stop dating him because i didn't understand the gravity at the time of what he was doing um so that was happening um my mom's best friend was brutally murdered um and we discovered her body um we were the ones unfortunately And I think that's like part of why I'm so drawn to crime fiction is like I it's that. And then so a lot of my family members unfortunately passed away like one after the other. So my senior year was this very, very tumultuous time where I went from being like forcibly baptized to discovering that my boyfriend was a sexual predator who now had to go to SAA meetings and like started. going in and out of jail to me being his like little bonnie to his clide not not in the like more in the like

drinking and driving doing really regrettable illegal things like that you know and and and like the the police investigation just all these things kind of hit at once and I ended up my parents ended up locking me in my room at one point during my senior year so that I wouldn't get out because they were so scared of like where I was going to go and I know this is like wow and and of course like as soon as I got free I like ran away and lived out of my car for a few weeks And I just had a very, very weird teenage experience. And everything has turned out okay. My parents stopped going to church. They just dropped it. One day, they were just done with it. Wild. I cut ties with the felon boyfriend once I went to college. And now looking back, I'm like,

oh, that was an awful, like, awful decision of mine. And, you know, so on and so forth. But there was that it was such a unique experience in which I felt both more powerful than I ever had in my entire life, like that feeling of like when you first start like noticing that you have power over people because of maybe the way you look or, you know, act or talk or like that people will give you alcohol or drugs or whatever it is that you They make you powerful, but, you know, whatever, more complicated. And yet, like, I was so suffocated and trapped in this small Southern Florida town. And, you know, with all of these people and authority figures crowding me down, literally locking me in places.

And I wanted, I've been wanting to write about that feeling for a long time. So that's what midnight was for me. Wow. That is All of that makes so much sense as a backstory And then How Ruth felt that real

Yeah She's like my wish fulfillment character Because you know Like I just went off to college And then things were all But like But she You know

Spoiler alert Like actually burns shit down And stands up for herself And yeah You know Yes Exact judgment Yes

There's a because the other, so you brought up even just now the, the really Southern Baptist, almost like kind of fundamentalist Christian religion is what you're typically getting into there. And so that's a big, so she's a pastor's kid. That's a big part of like what she's struggling with too. But without spoiling it, one of like in her almost penultimate moment, one of the things she says was like all of my dreams in one sentence. And Gere had like, told me before because he read it like before I did he was like there's going to be a scene that you're going to like lose your mind about I definitely lost my mind about it so it's cool that like Ruth conquered like that stuff as well since that was like that would be so weird having like super hyper religion like contrasted with who you were like dating it would be confusing yeah yeah and and like the the kind of just to add more things to the mix um ballrog my has joined the chat um

pets are welcome okay um he's we got a a new brother so um well we I swear I'll get back to the book but no you're fine there was this stray cat who started showing up at our back door

and he had all of these gouges in his face like bleeding actively bleeding and so we were like cleaning him up and giving him food um and and he had his like tail was bent like at some point it had been clearly broken and set the you know the wrong way and he just looked really like rough and he but he looked young anyway so he started feeding him and he started he got to the point where he was like every time our car turned the corner onto the street. He was running to meet the car and like standing there and we were like, oh gosh. And we took him to the vet to get his little, all of his cuts because they kept being

like fresh bleeding every day and take care of him. And he started sleeping right outside of our back door. And just like looking in our glass window like all day. He's like, hey guys. So we're like, I know he was so sweet too. All he wanted was to be pet. Like he would just immediately start purring. And my husband and I were like, he's so sweet. He's too sweet. He's too gentle for this outdoor life, this street life.

You know, like something's going to happen. So finally, we were like, damn it, we have to bring him in, don't we? And this is, I think, week one, a full week of him being inside. and you would think that he had like lived with us forever. So anyway, so now we are a three cat household, which is a little bordering on cat lady. I don't know if the number's like four or what it is, but dangerously close. So cute. Oh, I love that story.

My little, yeah, just couldn't. He's a sweetheart. And luckily, Ballrog, who's this guy, is a little mama's boy, just follows me everywhere. And he was very jealous at first. But now those two are like, best friends and doing the zooms together. Oh, yeah. So this is very exciting.

Your cats get 3 a.m. zoomies. I hear cats get 3 a.m. zoomies. Okay. I've never, I'm allergic, so I've never lived with them. Oh, I love cats so, so much. Truly, like, my, I know you're a dog person, a puppy and have a pup gear. I learned that so, so much. I, like, they are my children.

Books and cats are my, are the kids that I will be having in this life. And Shadow, who's our little adoptee, because he's all black. He is obsessed with the cat toy, like the little, it's just like a, stick with a string on it that you wave and it's like he's never seen a toy before which I don't know maybe he hasn't um but he's so obsessed with it that he drags it is like three feet long he drags this thing around the house and we'll lay it at your feet to ask to play but also at 3 a.m. He does this. Oh no one here like clank, clank, clank, clink, clink, clang, clang, coming up the stairs.

and then like click and then you'll get whacked at the face with like a stick and you'll like wake up and he's just sitting there like play it's time to play they're like oh gosh so you wave the little stick for a few times and you're like I'm sleeping show I'm going back to sleep yeah yeah that's so cute that's adorable yes I know back back to books yeah so I forget what I I was saying. I don't. I think you answered. I probably need to like come up with another question. Well, just. I think like with Ruth, like, you know, you talk about like what it was like to be like a teenage girl at that point in your life

and like how relatable it is. But like I like obviously didn't grow up a teenage girl. Um, but like my like rebellious, like I was a very good kid. Like I didn't get like the best grades. But like I was like not breaking her few. Like I was very good. until I was 19.

And my rebellious stage, like, started, like, when I was in college and lasted until I was 30. And it was, like, one, like, major, like, take any, like, point in your life. And I was, like, having a struggle with it. And it was, like, really bad. And I was really rebellious. And, like, there were so many, like, issues that I was, like, having one after another, after another until I was, like, 30. that like when I was like reading it, I was like, you know, like this like make sense to me.

Because I was always like one, like most people like you have like one struggle, like whether it's like addiction issues or like relationship issues or things like that. And I was like until I read this book, I was like, what is going on with me that like I am struggling with like one aspect of my life after another for like 11 years straight? And then I was like, it's just my rebellious. like it's just the rebellious side of me and it's like situations that like I've gotten myself in and it's like things that like people warned you about when you were like a teenager that like if you do X, Y and Z you can find yourself in this position

and you just have to learn to say no or like kind of like stick up for yourself which apparently I did not learn until I was 30 and so now I'm like oh my God like I totally like could relate to that character like a 30 well now 36 year old man um like relating to that like character in that like rebellion stage because you know even though mine lasted 11 years of me doing like the fucked up shit to myself and to others like I just was like anyone can relate to my book you really

try it's like I was the hot mess alone I find it so relatable um yeah but I mean I think that like anybody who has like any like demon or anything in their past that like they've like struggled with like we'll be able to relate to proof in some way or another. Yeah, that experience is universal, which is what I was banking on even though. So like with all my books, I forget, I think it was like a professor in grad school of mine said this like the concrete universal. What is this theory that you, the best way and most powerful cogent way to speak to universal human experience. experiences is through the really concrete and particular and, you know, specific. And if you do, if you describe the specific experience of being like one kind of embodied person in the world

and what it's like to be that person, if you do it well enough and authentically enough, then even like everyone who wasn't like sharing that embodied experience, but can picture it because of the work you've done will relate whatever it is that they can bring to it. Yeah. And like it's a bridge from and that's why good, you know, writing, I'm not giving myself a compliment, but I'm saying like this is the goal for good writing always is to be able to embody a specific particular experience well enough that all the readers that you know, that don't share that particular lived experience are still going to be like

understanding and feeling the ways in which they can relate that to their own life and like establishing their own points of commonality which is why reading is like the ultimate act of empathy. It's like so empathy making which is also why it's so dangerous and why books need to be banned according to people who don't want

us to have empathy for you know yeah for certain groups um so yeah i it's like that idea of i i really wanted to write a book that felt like a a capture to girls breaking bad captured a person's like you know what's white experience sort of you know starting with really good intentions and getting to really dark places with it um i wanted to capture that sort of coming of age feeling of suffocation versus empowerment. I wanted to capture like the seduction of being rebellious. And it's like, so Gary, you're saying like, why do I do, you know, this one thing and then this other, why not?

It probably felt good to do some bad. I mean, not all of it, but enough to, it's like a slippery slope. and also one thing informs the other, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like that. Well, I guess because I was such a good, like, child until, like, I went to college. Like, when, like, when people talk about those, like, experiences and those, like, really, like, forming years of, like, their first relationship, they're, like, first time that they were, like, drinking.

They're first, like, all of these, like, things of, like, these, like, active, like, rebellion or kind of like, you know, growing up, it's like I didn't have that much of that experience. So when it was 19, it was like, I'm going to, I'm going to have like my first like huge relationship and I'm going to pick the worst guy out there to date. And I did. I mean, I, I nailed that. Oh, right of passage. Right. I think like literally like the only thing he did not do to my knowledge was chop up a body, but he was like the worst person that you could ever date. Um, like my relationship with alcohol was like horrible from like 19 until like 34 um like breaking laws like not caring about anything hurting people like hurting myself like so like all of those

things that most people did within like a few years of their like 15 to 22 i was like i'm gonna like i'm gonna stretch this out a little bit adjust it but like dip my toe in every pond i can and when it comes up like self-sabotaging behavior. And but I mean, the thing like with Ruth that I really like enjoyed about her character was how well you captured all of that. Because I think in a cliche way, most people have a character that young. She only knows one emotion and it's fear because she's put in a dangerous situation because there's something she's trying to to, to figure out, but it's always like, well, she's so young and she's so afraid. And it might be usually a YAA bug. So for you to have like an adult thriller with a character this young that was just like that well thought out, that well written, that went through all of those emotions that felt like a real person when you're reading that. Like I think that's what captures you in those moments where you've been rebellious or where you've had to like deal with things that like may not be a real situation. but similar in, you know, those emotions and feelings.

Thank you. That really means a lot to me. And I will on a, when you were talking about just like hitting all of the rebellious things, like ripping off all the Band-Aids at once, this is not related to my book, but it just made me think about when I was 16, I went on a class field trip to Spain. and we like lived there for two months I think and it was all yeah and it was this very cool opportunity we got through school and no parents none of the parents who sent their kids their teenagers realized that it was as unsupervised as it was and they we all just like went to live with people

in the community and then we're expected to get ourselves to the college every day for the lessons and the rest of the day and night was ours and the drinking age is much different in Spain. Basically, if you can like, you know, see over the counter, you're going to serve you. And so we had a bunch of 16-year-olds legally drinking and it was a Bacchanalia. And the one thing that everyone said going when we first realized like, oh, God, we can do anything here was like there was this girl. I'll call her code name Rachel. Not for her. That's not her real name.

But she was like this super, super sheltered, shy girl whose parents kind of like really kept her in a bubble and didn't let her go and do things and really monitored the way she dressed. And it was like she was really controlled. And everyone's like, Rachel, what's going to happen to Rachel? Well, she might go crazy. Like, what's she going to do? Sure enough. night like four of this trip we stumble at 2 a.m. down an alleyway and who is face down in this alleyway because she has drank too much, too many chapitos, too many shots at the shop bar other than Rachel.

She was just like that one little taste of freedom and she went buck wild. And so of course we like helped her had to take her to get some medical attention and she ended up going home. She was like, I am not prepared for this, you know? I'm not suited for this. But it's always the Rachel's of the group who are like, you know, the ones where you basically you need to start introducing your kids to drugs and alcohol. Semi early is my theory about parenting. But also I will never be an.

actual parents. So I don't have to actually test that very in real life. So take that with a great sauce. I, well, I actually like have to like piggyback off from that. Like I work for. Do you have a Rachel? I was Rachel. You were. Oh yeah. Everything about what I wore like nothing from my like age zero to 16 was like my choice. So and and somehow I didn't have. have like that moment. But I think it's because of the way that I had to separate myself and then just immediately be an adult to get away from some stuff. I think that's why it kind of happened. Not that I don't have my rebellions. I still have my rebellions. They just weren't like drinking. But otherwise I was Rachel. I was very much Rachel. And everyone thought I was going to go crazy.

Everyone was like constantly wanted to be the one that like got me drunk. So that corrupted you. Yeah, exactly. You are Ruth and they were your Everett's too. Yes. Well, and if you'd ask my mom, it would be like an Everett situation that pulled me out of the family, but I married him, so. Okay, so they can't say shit now. I love your Everett. I love your Everett.

Your Everett can influence me anytime because I love, I love your Everett. So maybe to like light in the mood. or a little bit based off from, you know, going off from rebellion. I don't know if you watch what happens live, but they have those, like, interview questions. And Andy Cohen will ask, like, out of, you know, all the cast members, like, da, da, da, da. So maybe, you know, to wrap things up on like a light end, Kate and I can ask you some questions and you can pick between your three little thriller babies. Oh, love it. Which one fits?

So which of your three thrillers would you? say is like the one that just flowed out very naturally for you? That would have to be dreams because I wrote it in a very dark place and just kind of like everything came out. I was basically like confessing while writing that book. And then second would be midnight because out of all my characters, Ruth's voice came to me the clearest You know, it was, I'd been wanting to write a thriller that had like the tenor and tone of a fairy tale, a dark fairy tale. And so because Ruth is my little bookworm, her interiority, like her inner monologue voice is shaped by all the books she's read. And so it has like a little bit of like an elevated, very bookish sort of fairy tale-esque tone to it.

And it was so fun to like experiment with writing in that voice. So that would be number two. Last housewife was a bitch to write. It was just like, it was very hard. I can imagine that would be a very hard book to write. That was amazing. Well, my question,

I know you kind of plot. You're not like a pancer, but which one like surprised you the most when you were even kind of like getting the plot out? Yeah. I will say midnight's the dark. as our, the end took me by surprise because

when I initially pitched it, it had a whole different ending. And it was very, very bonkers, turned the genre, supernatural, paranormal, and I was told by my editor and agent, but mostly my agent like, don't do it. Yeah.

So I had this whole idea, and we're not doing spoilers, so I don't want to spoil the ending of the book. but it was very, very bonkers. It really hewed to the theme of the book of teenage girls being monsters. Wink, wink, wink. I wondered if it was going in that direction. So that makes me so excited to know that it was.

It was originally. It was originally. And then my agent kind of re-steered me. she was basically like where do you want this book to be shelved in a bookstore because if you go in this direction it's going to be shelved like potentially in sFF or you know whatever and i like we were thinking about that but i do kind of call bullshit on our worries now seeing the how popular paranormal thrillers have gotten like in the mainstream like riley I feel like I'm just finished Christina McDonald's latest book that's going to be coming out next year What Lies in Darkness

and it's the follow-up to these still black waters and it's got ghosts in it just like the first book. And these are all like mainstream thrillers not being shelved in SFF. So I do think maybe our concerns were a little overblown. But basically I had to surprise myself

by coming up with like a whole new ending that also felt very true and perfect to the characters. And I will say now that the ending is what it is, I'm so glad that I went there and didn't go with my original idea. Because I think it suits it so much better. It suits the characters so much better. And it's like an ending that is emotionally true to them more than it is like a character. twisty plot point. Sometimes thriller writers,

maybe it's just me like succumb to twist pressure where like, oh God, you know, like so and so did this and it blew everyone's minds and now I've got to like be even better or at least be on the same level. You know, it's just like, or I did this before

and people loved it. I have to do that again. Yeah. So that can really get in your head and convince you to do some things that maybe aren't that you need like the wise counsel of an agent to talk you down from that ledge. Yeah.

But yeah. So sorry, that was a long answer to that surprising. But yeah, I think that surprised me. Also, Don, who was a character in The Last Housewife, surprised a hell out of me because when I started, he was such a men's rights, like right-winger, like in-cell-esque sort of. person and then as I was writing him he became this guy who was really well versed in like feminist discourse and was really good at twisting like third wave feminism and and and other other things around to like convince and persuade the girls to like you know let him do things with them that they might not have otherwise. So he really surprised me in how diabolical he was.

Yes. You and me both. Me too. I like this game. Yeah. Well, oh my God. Thank you so much for coming and hanging out with us tonight. You are so welcome. I had such a good time. I know. As you both know, I could talk to you literally forever. Like this could be a 12-hour. podcast and I would just be happily like, you know, door dashing needles and just like picking them up and be like, okay, now we're on dinner, you know? Yes. Yeah. Now you're really speaking our language.

You're talking about. 100%. 100%. Well, I hope that everybody has their copy of Midnight is the darkest hour. And if you haven't checked it out yet, it would make an amazing Christmas present for yourself for your favorite book bestie. so thank you so much for hanging out with us and please know that all you have to do is say the word and you can come back any time that you want to.

Thank you both so much. I am in the phase of writing my next book where it's like all I'm thinking about and I'm super into it and all I can think about is how much I can't wait to share it with you both and talk to you about it. So yes, very much looking forward to that. I hope that's in the future. Maybe next year. As soon as arcs go out, I'll just like get them to you and be like, can we talk?

Yes. And we will. 30 minutes. Did you have enough time to read it? Yeah. Okay. Love you guys. And I hope your holidays are amazing.

Yes. I hope you have a great holiday. And we will talk to you soon. Thank you so much. We love you. Love you. Bye.