Bookwild - Ashley Winstead's This Book Will Bury Me: A Roman à Clef About Processing Grief, and True Crime Obsessions

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

This week, I got to chat with one of our podcast faves ASHLEY WINSTEAD! In her third appearance on the show, we talk about her new thriller, This Book Will Bury Me, and how she exorcized her own demons after she found herself obsessed with true crime forums in the wake of her father's unexpected death. She shares why she was drawn to writing a roman à clef about grief and true crime obsession, and her willingness to critique herself through that form.This Book Will Bury Me SynopsisIt's the most famous crime in modern history. But only she knows the true story.After the unexpected death of her father, college student Jane Sharp longs for a distraction from her grief. She becomes obsessed with true crime, befriending armchair detectives who teach her how to hunt killers from afar. In this morbid internet underground, Jane finds friendship, purpose, and even glory...So when news of the shocking deaths of three college girls in Delphine, Idaho takes the world by storm, and sleuths everywhere race to solve the crimes, Jane and her friends are determined to beat them. But the case turns out to be stranger than anyone expected. Details don't add up, the police are cagey, and there seems to be more media hype and internet theorizing than actual evidence. When Jane and her sleuths take a step closer, they find that every answer only begs more questions, and begin to suspect their killer may be smarter and more prolific than any they've faced before. Placing themselves in the center of the story starts to feel more and more like walking into a trap...Told one year after the astounding events that concluded the case and left the world reeling, when Jane has finally decided to break her silence about what really happened, she tells the true story of the Delphine Massacres. And what she has to confess will shock even the most seasoned true crime fans... Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with a repeat guest and a fan favorite here on the podcast, Miss Ashley Winstead. And we got to talk about her new thriller. This book will bury me. This book was so many things. It is a really vulnerable portrayal of grief and of obsession and the things we do to get away from our grief. and also a very thorough exploration of true crime culture from someone who found herself caught up in it herself. And I personally loved the ways that Ashley shared her experience through this novel, talking about how you can get caught up in true crime culture, and the things she started noticing along the way. But here is the synopsis for this book, What Burry Me?

After the unexpected death of her father, college student Jane Sharp longs for a distraction from her grief. She becomes obsessed with true crime, befriending armchair detectives who teach her how to hunt killers from afar. In this morbid internet underground, Jane finds friendship, purpose, and even glory. So when news of the shocking deaths of three college girls in Delphine, Idaho takes the world by storm and sluice everywhere race to solve the crimes, Jane and her friends are determined to beat them. But the case turns out to be stranger than anyone expected. Details don't add up. The police are cagey, and there seems to be more media hype and internet theorizing than actual evidence.

When Jane and her sleuths take a step closer, they find that every answer only begs more questions. Something's not adding up, and they begin to suspect that killer may be smarter and more prolific than any they've faced before. Placing themselves in the center of the story starts to feel more and more like walking into a trap. told one year after the astounding events that conclude the case and left the world reeling, when Jane has finally decided to break her silence about what really happened, she tells the true story of the Delphine Massacres, and what she has to confess will shock even the most seasoned true crime fans. I absolutely loves this book.

I flew through it, and it's not a short book, so that's saying something. But I really loved the conversation I got to have with Ashley about it and how personal it is to her story, both of losing her dad and of kind of losing herself in true crime culture. I feel like it was a really unique and personal take on that subject. And she also taught me about something called a Romana Clef, which is a novel about real-life events that is overlaid with the facade of fiction. The fictitious names in the novel represent real people and the key is the relationship between the nonfiction and the fiction. It's basically a literary term that helps us process our non-fictional or our real world through

fiction. And in some ways, if I wanted to get really picky about it, I would say like a lot of fiction does that for me and probably does that for a lot of people. But this specific version and this book will bury me really uses things that we have all become very comfortable hearing about and talking about with each other and explores all kinds of different cases, all kinds of different true crime cases from that lens of like, why are we so obsessed and what does it mean that we're so obsessed and what should we do about the fact that we're sometimes so obsessed? So I love learning new literary terms. I'm like, cool. Now I know what a Romano Clef is. I've read a Romano Clef. But with all that to say, let's hear more about it from Ashley.

Is it okay if I drink coffee while we're talking? Totally, yeah. Okay. There's kind of an ongoing joke. I mean, I'm like always bringing this into screen and people are like, you take your hydration so seriously, so we're good with hydration over here. Hello. Everyone's like, that is a small toddler that you're carrying around.

Yes, it really is. But it's so nice to not have to fill it up all the time. Like, I drink almost two of them a day sometimes. Sometimes. We're hydrated girlies over here. I'm on four a day of these. Yes. Oh, that's amazing.

I am a sea creature who somehow got banished to land and I require like a lot of water. Same. Same. I am going to say it that way now moving forward though. Yeah. Just like just really freak everyone out that you're talking to. Yes. Well, I am so excited to talk with Ashley Winstead about this book.

bury me and it's your third time on the podcast so we're racking those numbers up i know i'm a i'm a like distinguished veteran of the podcast i'm just going to give myself that gravitas i guess yeah i mean i guess i've a veteran podcaster now too so we we grew through it together um well obviously i loved this book people know by now when they're listening to this because i've talked about it and posted about it and all the things. But I was wondering... Yeah, yeah. I was wondering, and I kind of know, but for everyone listening, was there anything different

about writing this book compared to your other ones? Oh, it's hugely different. Yeah, like on multiple levels. Like, I would say, so this is my first Romano Clef that I've ever written, which for anyone who's not like, you know, super nerdy just came out of your lit one-on-one class. That's basically just a fictional book that is based on real-life events. So this is the first time I've done this for a thriller. And I, so I'll kind of like talk about why maybe I chose to do that. And it has to do with like how I came up with the idea for this book, which I talk a little bit about in my

author's note that'll be, it should be with arc in galleys now, but it will definitely be with the finish copies of the book. But anyway, I first started to think about, conceive of this book when I was at the Southern Voices Festival in Birmingham, Alabama. The Hoover Public Library puts this on. And it was... just a really great event and it was afterwards we went out a bunch of librarians and the writers who were participating we went out to dinner at the Bonefish Girl which was lovely and we were all talking just all things books and one of the librarians had a mystery book club that she was running and they

were tackling true crime and there were was a lot of like hunger and desire among her readers, like her library patrons, to read true crime. And so it kind of started this conversation about the allure of true crime and what people, like, what was it about these real life stories that is so compelling to people and is, is there an element of ghoulishness to it and exploitation to it? You know, just like kind of just really exploring it in this conversation. And it was a really interesting time for me to be having that conversation because I had recently become obsessed with true crime. Like I was the person that we were, everyone was talking about. Right. And I didn't know, I hadn't really like done the,

the reflection about why. And I was in particular very obsessed with the University of Idaho case, murder case and and like counted myself one among very, very many people who's obsessed with that case. And I hadn't really like figured out why. I just knew vaguely that had something to do with the fact that my father had recently passed away. And there was something about like my grief and this feeling I had after he passed. that I had so many questions about why him, why now, could it have been prevented, where is he now? You know, just like all those questions that you have when you lose someone. And I was just drawn to true crime forums especially and like tracking cases out of this desire to like watch and see other people solving.

questions and providing answers. So as I was sitting there at this dinner, it kind of crystallized for me. And I remember saying something to everyone where I was like, I think it is like maybe one of the most human things you can possibly do is just need to know and be completely unsettled. by mystery. And, you know, like, when you really start to think about it, this defines so much of human existence is like this, against all odds, regardless of the consequences,

this pursuit of answers. And so I think that, yeah, there are so many different answers to the question of, like, why we find true crime compelling. But I think at the end of the day, there's something that is so deeply threatening to us, about not knowing and having to sit with that mystery, that it becomes like an obsession of compulsion to understand why.

So I started to think about and imagine after that a young woman having my exact experience of after losing someone being drawn to this community online that becomes a kind of found family and obviously my main character Jane and this book will bury me. She takes it to you know extremes that I never did. But I had, I really wanted to write, especially in the first half of this book, real details, a real version of my life and my emotional investments and my obsessions because I really wanted to talk about what was happening in my life and what I was seeing in the world around me at a really like specific and realistic level. So Jane and I, you know, warned my family, but like this isn't a spoiler because this happens in like the first, you know,

chapter of the book, but Jane loses her father. And that account of like how she finds out and everything and how it happens is exactly what happened to me. And there was, yeah, I know. And maybe people don't want to know that. I don't actually know. But I'm, I'm, it was the most cathartic experience I've ever had writing exactly what happened and putting it on the page. And then Jane's, the cases that Jane becomes.

obsessed with and very emotionally and intellectually invested in are like our fictional versions of the cases that I was really emotionally invested in and had a lot of questions about like the Abraham Shakespeare case Gabby Petito but most of all the University of Idaho cases and so around the halfway mark the kind of Romana clef of the book falls away a little bit and it spins into a lot of different directions. But there was something that was so important to me about being very honest and as realistic as possible and vulnerable about putting all that on the page. So sorry, Kate.

I talked for like, no, you answered so many of my questions already, which is so cool that you just like, you were, I was like, well, of course. she knows all the talking points to talk about she wrote the book well i mean i probably should it's like oh this is not a monologue well no it is that is like when it's an interview podcast it is about you doing most of the talking i was loving it um there were multiple things you talked about there that i think made the story really powerful um so and i'm i'm just trying to figure out which one I want to ask you about first. To pull out.

But there was a quote. Like I just, I pulled a bunch of quotes because I didn't know even how many things I was going to end up talking about. But there was a quote where Jane's getting overwhelmed by something and she says, I could barely make sense of it. I felt a sudden longing to go back to the black and red world of the true crime forum. I loved that sentence so much. A couple things. Obviously, it's very fun. You did the black and red.

to instead of black and white. So like we have wordplay going on, which I always love. But as someone who, and I think it's when you were talking about like it's a very human condition to need like answers and to be sure of things. I think also your people, you tend more anxious. Like that's like very much the core of that thing is you want to be able to have control over everything. So I thought I'm going to get through this. Have like the, if I'm allowed to say, like, the best gravelly voice right now. Like the best, like, you sound like, I can't, I can't name the celebrity, but it's like amazing, like, really really. I wonder if it's Emma's down. I feel like hers is gravelly. Yeah, like that slight depth than a gravel that just like, it's just like I could listen to it forever.

Well, I'll try to keep it there. But as someone who's I just do have control issues They never completely go away Even when you've been in therapy And know how to handle them You just know how to handle them It doesn't mean they don't ever come up

So I loved that you used True Crime as well As like a way for Jane to kind of feel like She could go somewhere where she had control Thousand percent And this is why God It's I mean talking have like putting something on a page and putting a book out and then being able to have to talk about it with readers

um is the biggest gift because you just said that and I was like yes that is exactly and I in talking about this book I haven't said the word control yet but that is exactly what it is it's this it is an like a manifestation of Jane's anxiety and her desire for control. And that's what true crime gives her. And that's what it was giving me at that period in my life. And like to just talk a tiny bit more about without spoiling anything. But like this book is written as a tell all memoir where Jane is a year after the events that transpired. She is embittered and, you know, like, decided that she's going to finally tell everyone the truth about what happened.

And she has a reason for doing this. And it's a reason that she keeps really close until the end of the book. And a lot of that, even, is about control. I mean, it really is. like, I remember after my dad passed, having literal thoughts, like, how do I reverse this? Like, how do I bring him back? Like, I'm a grown-ass woman. Why was I thinking that? But it's like that part of you that needs control that has, like, ordered your world so that for the most part, you can make things happen for yourself and then being confronted with something that you absolutely

is outside the power of your control is one of the most like remaking experiences I've ever had. So that's what this book is about really at the core. Yeah. We're done.

We solved it. The other thing that you're bringing up is it's written as kind of a tell-all. Yeah. And she's gotten to a point where she's like, I'm going to say what actually happened from my side of things. Yeah. And, And when I first started reading it, it was reminding me that I remember, I can't remember which podcast.

But when you did like a tour about the last housewife, you brought up the story of, and you're going to have to tell me how to pronounce it. Shearazade. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it always stuck with me because you brought it up as how like it's a story of a woman who's like captured by a king. I think I'm sticking with us. No.

Yeah. basically she thinks he's going to kill her but then she starts telling him stories every night about herself and that ends up keeping her alive and i thought that was such a powerful metaphor when i heard it like two years ago or not even a metaphor whatever that is just a story um because i think a lot of what i really love about reading is that you get you get everyone's perspective and it reminds you how much like if you're in someone's perspective you actually probably are able to to understand how they got where they were versus like when you're outside of it. So the first chapters were reminding me of last housewife or the first chapter because it opens up as well, but it's

basically then we have the fun like podcast element in that one. But it's also like a really strong female who's saying like, no, hear my whole story. Here's what happened. And then this one kind of starts like that. So is there something about stories like that that are as appealing to you to write as they are for me to read. Yes. No, that's such a great. And I had the same sort of feeling writing the opening to this book as I did for the last, for those kind of like interstitial chapters in the last housewife, you know, where you have this kind of like in the last housewife, this disembodied voice that you're not entirely sure who's speaking to you. And that was actually the first part of the book that I wrote. You like, there's three of.

them and that was like I framed it out first and then filled everything in in the middle. And then yeah, I had that same sort of like I was in the same frame of mind writing and it was for this book will bury me. And to be honest, I didn't start out writing this book will bury me as a tell-all memoir. Like I started writing it straight just like, okay, you know, point A to point B. And it was really dissatisfying to me. Like I wasn't feeling in the zone. I wasn't feeling like the voice was hitting. Like it just, my instincts were like, no, this isn't, this isn't. And it wasn't until I realized and I figured out that I would be right, that Jane's got

to be directly talking to the reader and that this is a, a project, basically adding like yet another meta layer. I don't know why I'm so obsessed with like writing books about books about, you know, Romano clef's about a Romano clef told us a memoir, but secretly a different project is going on. Like, why am I like that? I don't know. It makes, like, my outlines. I have to be, like, so insanely obsessive about the details.

But it wasn't until I, like, realized that was the way I was going to tell it, that the entire story cracked wide open for me. And all of a sudden, I was. was rewriting the whole thing. I was, and it flowed. And I like, all of a sudden, I had Jane's voice on lock and she became different than I had originally pictures her. Like, she was older, wiser, more bitter, a darker, you know, like at the time that Jane is speaking to the reader and telling her story, she has been through the ringer. Yeah. Right. Like she starts out. Her arc is like, innocence to very, you know, very sort of like someone who has been through a lot of life and a lot of experience. Yeah. And so she is that totally changed her voice in this book. And that was so satisfying and fun to write. Yeah. And the footnotes of it all. I love. Yes. Those were so fun. They would be a little, there are sometimes like snoburn.

darky ones and sometimes they're informative like yeah that was super fun and when you said it didn't start out that way i was like oh my gosh because now having read the final version like her voice is so much a part of it and like some of the highlights are so fun when she's kind of like giving you an aside about like what's really happening or what was really happening so it's such a like integral part of the book now so that's cool that it kind of brought it all to life for you too That's what cracked it open. And it's so fun because when I sent the book to my editor, one of her notes was like, more footnotes, more, more aside. She just wanted me to like amp up. And I was like, okay. That's amazing. Yeah. I was like, don't threaten me with a good time because I like more than like figuring out places to add, speak to the reader like in a different voice or tell me. or like add a fact that just totally changes what Jane has just said, you know, in the paragraphs. And, you know, hopefully makes the reader be like, oh, no, well, now I have a completely different

feeling about what you just said. Yeah. So that's really fun as a thriller author, especially when you get to like do those, use that technique to make your reader find your narrator more unreliable or throw down somewhere. It's very cool. It really is. I loved that setup. It kind of reminded me just because I read them around the same time of how Lane Fargo uses like documentary script.

Yes. Yes. Like they both kind of had that same feeling where you're sneaking extra info in with this like other plot device or whatever it would technically be. Yes. I love like mixed media. And yeah, there are so many different techniques that you can to. that you can use to bring all of these different voices in and perspectives. It's so fun.

Yeah. I love any book that is creative like that. Yes. That's a good segue. Because this book, another thing, this book reminded me of the last housewife in the first chapter. But what reminded me of in my dreams I hold a knife,

one of the things I think we even talked about how many years ago that was four, three, four. was like how it was such a large ensemble cast, but like all of the characters, I felt like I knew them and like they were distinct. And so we talked about like how you did that and the way that you kind of love building the characters out and how you get to know that many characters. So this one even though it's from Jane's perspective, very much felt like an ensemble cast again since she does have like the true crime forum friends. So how did you go about making this ensemble cast? Yeah, I love that question because I was, there are some books I've written like The Last Housewife, and even my previous thriller to this one, Midnight's the Darkest Hour, where they feel really like closed and claustrophobic, you know, and you are following one character and you're in her head the whole time. And not that that's not true of this book will bury me,

but the point of those books is to like tunnel in deep into one person. And there is a kind of claustrophobia to that. Whereas I really wanted with this book to like kick the world wide open. And like how Jane be this kind of young woman who hasn't experienced a lot of life and through the internet, because that's kind of how we're all, you know, connecting these days through the internet. Her world becomes, kind of explodes and widens.

And so I knew I wanted an ensemble cast. I knew that I wanted to create a found family for Jane. Because what she is seeking after the loss of her dad is a kind of family substitute.

And so I, this is my most highly, highly researched book. Like, you know, I was kind of saying to you, that I was already in the weeds as a true crime consumer and obsessive before I even conceived of this book. And so then I just, you know, I read every possible thing I could about true crime. I watched every documentary I could get my hands on that time permitted. I read books about how amateur slews do what they do,

a book's about emerging DNA technology and how the law enforcement has tapped kind of like amateur genealogists and other other scientists to help them crack cold cases, especially like Barbara Ray Ventner's book about she's the woman who helped the police identify the Golden State Killer. Yeah. That book I highly recommend. It's fabulous. The Paul Holes book, Unmas, just like all, and I know he's former law enforcement. So just all, as many perspectives, I tried to learn as much as I could.

Yeah. About what life looks like as like not just a consumer of true crime, like I was a lurker in forums and, you know, and just kind of more passive, but an active sleuth. But to your question about creating these characters, I was also determined to bring to life on the page the forum experience. Like what it feels like to get to know various personalities simply through text, you know, like this very, like, dry text in posts. And somehow, and this was actually one of my biggest. craft challenges. And my editor and I talked about this a lot in the lead up to me writing this book. It was a question like, is this going to be compelling for readers to read a conversation unfolding like a forum transcript, you know? And we had this question kind of with the podcast in The Last Housewife,

too. Because when you are relying completely on dialogue to move your book for, forward. That is like holding your hands behind your back and, you know, it's like really limiting down your tools as a writer. And so you have to do so much with so little. And so that was a really big craft challenge for me. And I hope it works and is compelling in this book. I will leave it to readers to tell me, you know, that's like not something we can say. With the characters who, with the friends that Jane finds the fellow sleuths, she gets invited into like this elite group of amateur sleuths, like people who are actually really good and have a good track record. And so she's very honored to get pulled into this like a team.

And there are four other sloughs. And I had so much fun coming up with their personalities, their personas, their backstories. And I really wanted to reflect, like, the archetypes that you see in forums, you know, like, that kind of real experience. And so you have, um, Lord Goku, who is, um, who is like kind of your, when you think of like a, a forum dweller, you know, that's kind of like he's that stereotype of like, he lives in his basement. He's a young man. Yeah. You feel like he's in a basement. He's really into anime. and that sort of thing.

But of course, he has layers. Like, it turns out he owns the house that he's living in the basement, and he's like a big tech guy and all these other layers. And, you know, he and Jane become really close. And then there's sleuth mistress, otherwise known as mistress. And she is a grandmother and a retired librarian who, like, knits by day and solved grisly murders by night. And lightly, I love her so much.

lightly is the retired detective who, you know, is now doing, and he has like this, he's the moral compass of the group and like the center. And then there's Citizen Knight who is, you know, military. He's part of the Navy. And he is, you know, I got to play with all of their usernames too. So he's Citizen Knight with an N, but obviously, Night with a K is like a big part of how he views himself. And so getting to just reflect a lot of those voices that you see in forums was really fun. And then I also got to kind of, you and I talked about this a little bit over DMs, but kind of got to use their backstories and why they each felt they were drawn to true crime as insight.

for the reader into like their character so that was really fun too yeah that was going to be the next thing i was going to ask about so you use um something from where did it go it's just oh from a book called savage appetites by rachel monroe um so there's the detective type um the defender the victim and then the killer because sometimes killers lurk there too but yeah i did DM you all there's reading it because then like what you kind of do um in a global non-spoilery sense is like there's who jane thinks each person probably is because of just like her amount of knowledge and then there's like what she starts to think maybe is different about them as she gets to know them so like you do you get to like go through the like character development with multiple different characters while using like

true crime uh terminology essentially Yeah, that is so cool. Thank you. So for like, you, if you haven't read Savage Appetite, by the way, you... I added it to my TVR now. Yeah. It's fabulous. I love this...

I love this book by Rachel Monroe. It's this... It's nonfiction. It is a book about why women in particular are drawn to true crime. And so she poses these... She takes, like, real-life cases. And she poses all of these different kinds of personalities and suggests using real-life cases to suggest why show different ways of being attracted to true crime. And so to add another, I thought it was so smart.

And to add another layer of meta to this book, I thought, well, Mistress, who is a librarian and incredibly well read would have read Rachel Monroe's savage appetites. And for, right. Yep, and she would be as obsessed with it as I am. And to her, she would use those archetypes that Monroe comes

up with as her, like, version of enneagram. You know, it's her like, you know, so even though she's always asking the other sleuths, who are part of her, like, little found family, sleuth family, do, like, well, are you a detective? Are you

a defender? Are you a victim type? and she's wanting them to self-diagnose because she wants to get to know her children and her friends. Yeah. And it was so fun to have the characters all misdiagnosed themselves in the beginning.

And then throughout the course of the book, have Jane slowly come to realize like, oh, Goku said that he's a detective type because he's really just interested in the puzzle of solving cases. but I think he hasn't he's not giving himself this kind of credit or I think that something else is really going on now that I know so it yeah it was a really unique way um to kind of come at getting to know these characters I really yeah and as you're explaining it was also reminding me to

like I really like in stories when it touches on like it reminds us that we contain multitudes like we're not just one thing. So like we also don't even have to label our label ourselves one thing either. But as someone who like wants to know everyone's personality test when they come into my life, I can't say that I always remember it. Yeah. Tool for like introspection or reflection. Yeah. It's what we talk. Yeah. You know it's not the end all be all, but it just it gives you like an entrance point. Exactly. And it helps you like have a short. And sometimes if we're trying to like explain someone that we met, like Tyler and I are trying to explain someone we met to each other. It's just like easy to have a couple like surface level things to say. Oh yeah. You're like, oh, they're such a type two. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Did you, did you ever go back and forth on how many people you wanted in like the core group and how did you decide on five total? Yeah. I did go back and forth a little bit. The core group came very organically and just I modeled it after a family, like a nuclear family. So mom, dad, brother, and kind of not to be spoilery, but love interest.

Yeah, right. So that is very much like, it's just a little nuclear family. It's just a little nuclear family. So it's like the weirdest version of a nuclear family, like a crime solving, murder-solving, little, you know, homie family that they've got on the internet. That is such a cool concept that you kind of did like the family. That makes, it makes sense too, because it's like what she is replacing as well. Hurting for. Yep. It's exactly. It's what she's searching for other than control and, you know, like you said, the layers of it. And yeah, so creating that family for her. But you know, one thing that was hard is constantly having to like slap my own hand

because I was giving like too much time and airspace to some of the other characters in the forum. Oh, yeah. Like it was there are some of them that are there for, you know, comic relief and are, you know, just like jerks or or, or just. you know, like to show like the satire of it all. Right. Very satirical characters. And I had maybe a little bit too much fun writing them in some cases. And I was like, trim this.

God, kill your darlings. Making you laugh. But like Seattle, you know, whatever, shouldn't have this much airtime. Right. Next thing you know, you're just going to be writing about him. So that part was keeping it contained and balanced was a challenge. with some of the other. Yeah.

Yeah. The other thing I thought was cool is you, like, allowed different, like, manifestations of grief. So, like, her mom is just, like, catatonic and doesn't want to go near any of his things. And it's kind of just, I mean, she's fawning, essentially for doing, like, fight, flight or fawn. So she's just, like, that's how she can handle it for now.

And then Jane is like has like a really insatiable need to know more about her dad. And to be closer to him and to find out what she can know about him. And is like she's not dissociating from her from her pain essentially. Yeah. Not not in the way that her mom is. So what was that? Like like how did you kind of decide to build their relationship? Because I feel like it also, especially by the end, it gave room for the fact that both.

reactions are okay we just all like sometimes do different stuff yeah you know that really is more of the Romana clef coming in where everyone in my family had very different reactions and in manifestations of grief and I have spent a lot of time just thinking about how different they all are and I think I'm sure this if you asked my siblings because I'm the oldest of four and if you ask my siblings and ask my mom, you know, they would probably say the exact same thing, but sometimes it can be painful to see people grieving differently than you are. Um, um, and because it does, it feels, in some instances, you think to yourself like, oh, are they not being, are they not hit as hard as I am?

Or oh, does this, since they're not grieving in the same way, does this mean that like, you know, I don't know, just all these questions. Or like, am I doing it wrong if other people are doing it differently? And in some cases, it's like, you know, the question is, yeah, am I, am I grieving more shallowly than, or am I? Yeah, just like the ways that, the different ways that grief manifests, it like compounds because you're not only struggling with this, all of these feelings, but you're struggling, looking at yourself struggle with all these feelings. So there's this, obviously I'm obsessed with the poet Richard Seichen. And I think I've talked about this, like on my Instagram or something before. But he has this poem in his collection, War the Foxes, where he writes about, he writes about grief.

And I'm going to totally butcher this line, but I'm going to say it anyway. where it's like, you know, one day you are falling to the floor in, you know, in grief, falling to your knees on the floor with grief. And the next, a little bit later, you are falling to your floor on your knees in grief and noticing the paint chips in the, you know, on the, like, on the wall. And then wondering about how in your grief you could be noticing the paint chips. And it's just like this, both talking about like the evolution of grief and how you slowly like come out of it. But also about like when you're an anxious person or a person who is really used to being self-aware because maybe you've had a lot of therapy in your life or you're a writer or a reader.

And that's how your brain works. You know, just the weirdness of like seeing, disassociating and seeing yourself. grieve and then having thoughts about that. Yes. And like judgments or critiques or. And so I think trying to capture that in the book through Jane and her mom's very different approaches to grief and their conflict, the conflict that their different approaches brings to a head for them I think was really a really.

important to me. And again, I did have to, so that I just, you know, is one of those things that was important to me to write realistically from my own experience. Yeah. I feel like it would make sense to ask this at some point. But if it's too personal, let me know. But when you're saying writing from your experience, I also wondered, because as Jane is like doing research or being in the forum sometimes she'll like find something and she'll be like oh and then she talks out loud to her dad's ashes and it kind of feels like she's like doing it with him still was that is it is it met up enough that you talk to your dad while you were writing this book absolutely like everything everything it is so close and I think if you write a book like this I don't think there is like a too personal

because I have needed personal, you know, like that's... Right. And everything that Jane does, like, carry her dad's ashes around with her, build a shrine of his things. Even the items in the shrine are my... Those are my shrine items, you know, for my father. And, you know, those were... I wanted to write about how weird it is to suddenly be... suddenly be handed a plastic bag full of someone you loves ashes.

Right. Holy shit. The grotesque intimacy of that. And like the real questions that you're grappling with as you're holding this bag of ashes, like what part of the person I love am I holding? And what doesn't mean to be holding? And is this the, like, grossest, most horrible thing that's ever happened to me? Yes.

But then the weird turnaround you do where you think to yourself, like, oh, my God, I have them again. Right. Oh, my God. I never want to part and I never want to be apart from this physical... Representations. Yeah. And so just, like, the... I don't...

think as like people as thriller and and crime writers you know we often write about grief and murder and bodies in this very abstract or or um you know distanced way and i understand yeah i understand why because you know it's it's like easier to it's easier i don't want to say the wrong thing but it's easier to write a book that is an entertaining book if you don't have to really confront some of the grizzlier truths about death. Yes. And so I didn't want to do that with this book. Like I wanted to look ugly truths in the face. Right. And I wanted to be a... as real as possible about death and and I'm really I'm really making anyone who, you know,

doesn't want to confront any of this. Like, this definitely, you know, I'm not, I'm not really like selling this book to them. But that's probably a good thing. Well, that's okay. If they're in a fragile place, it's probably not the right one to read right now. Yeah. No, totally. But it is, yeah, I wanted to like be very honest. Yeah. And even if that requires me to go to a vulnerable place, to a self-critical place, all of those things are in this book. Yes, I would agree.

So, and I think the messages that I've gotten from readers who have felt solidarity and seen by those parts of the book are very mean a lot to me. I bet. So. Yeah. Yeah. It also,

as you're saying, there's like, we also like learn about Jane's relationship with her dad a little bit too and how like he picked her name because she's Janeway, Sharp, sharp, yes.

Yeah. Sharp sounded wrong. But named after Star Trek character. you do a really cool story thing with at the end too but i'm not going to say anything i'm just going to tell people she uses it in a cool way uh but there were also like i had something highlighted about like that uh you watched or i watched every episode with him but i preferred magic to sci-fi and i know that when i talked to you the first time i think you said the first book you were you ever wrote was fantasy or something like that yeah yep so all of a sudden i was like is the self-referential too

so was Star Trek important to you and your dad as well? Yeah, my dad was a huge trekkey. Oh, yeah. He wasn't on the forums. And my knowledge did not write fanfic. But, you know, one of the things that I discovered and Jane discovers is that you're never done learning about the people that you love even after you lose them. So who knows? And but yeah, that was my dad was a big trekkie.

he was really, really big into sci-fi and fantasy, you know, in 80s rock music and just like all these things that he loved that he gave, that I loved because I loved them through him and because they were a shared experience. And another author, Josh Mulling, was asked, asked me on Instagram, like, are you a Trekkie? Like, how did this part of the book weave in there? And I was like, no, I literally just everything of Star Trek I've ever seen, which is actually a lot by now, is just like over my dad's shoulder kind of thing, like walking in and out of a room while he was watching the episode or sitting at his feet while he was watching an episode or stealing pieces of popcorn from his popcorn bowl while he was, you know, just like those sorts of experiences

and being exposed to it that way. And then coming to have an appreciation for it after he passed and think about why he loved it and kind of, you know, get that insight about the person you love. Like, doing the detective work about someone you love after their, when they're missing and you no longer have them. It was like in this book and in my life is like an act of love as much as it is an act of like control and a manifestation of anxiety, you know. Right. It's all the things together. Yeah, it's all mixed together, which makes it, you know. It is. Yeah. It also had me thinking about, and I can't remember if it was in like dreams or housewife as well, but midnight is the darkest hour. Obviously, there's like Twilight references. And she's really, she really processes even like her real world kind of through the fictional world. That kind of

of like helps her. And it just like sometimes characters feel like friends is also kind of where I'm kind of where I'm headed with this. And so then there were a few references in here, whether it was like Star Trek or I think there was even clueless. If you fit a bunch in there. Heather's Fuffy. There, yes. I was like, I know I had more highlights. I didn't write them all out. I started doing that where my lore started trend before it became a trend. Yes, my word. Oh, my gosh. That is so true.

That's exactly what it is. But like I have been like that kind of my whole life. Like I really, sometimes I do get really, obviously, however many years into this podcast, sometimes I get really into certain characters or stories and you feel really connected. And it helps you understand yourself. It might help you understand other people more. but is that like now that I'm kind of seeing it in a couple of your books is that a similar experience for you absolutely and I think one of the things that I am trying to work out across

various books of mine is the difference is actually like articulating the difference between a character in a book that becomes a friend and a thought partner or maybe someone you model your life and your actions on even, like an inspiration versus a person on the screen who you communicate with, but you've never met in real life. You see, you know, 2D visual of them. You trust that that is who they are. And you get their messages.

And so that for Jane is her true crime family, just these 2D images with words and thoughts attached. and a person who has passed away who was once physically present but now exists only in the traces that they've left behind, notes, you know, photos, videos. And so trying to kind of like articulate the sameness and difference of all of these different, like, influential figures. in a person's life that really are just stories, like at a certain point. And like, I think other authors have said this and done this a lot better than me, but just to paraphrase, like, this idea that after we pass, all we become is memory and story. There is nothing left.

Like, we all transmute from physical being into story. And so trying to think. about the ways that for Jane both like books and story are that and her true crime friends, her slews and like the internet is a way to like people are even before they're dead have transmitting are just like living stories. Yeah. But then her dad has already done this. And so for her, they all have equal weight and meaning and influence. And that's kind of a coping mechanism where she's able to like think about her dad and say like, okay, well, he's just gone into this realm where all these other people I love are,

you know, and that's okay. I can live with that. Like, I still have him the same way I have mistress and Goku and lightly, for the most part, obviously, you know, I won't reveal any spoilers, but they don't always. just live on the screen for her. But yeah, so that becomes, I think that's something that I've been trying to, like, work out and articulate for myself across various books.

And maybe this is like where this book will bury me is like where it comes to a head. And I like discover for myself why this question is so interesting to me. Yes. Yeah, I'm so obsessed with parisocial relationship. So I'm just, I'm right there with you. Yes. It's fascinating to me. because like a lot of things, I think there are good versions of it and they're bad versions of it.

But like some people only think of the bad. And I'm like, there's also really good things that like I found health solutions in the last year through parasycial podcast relationships that doctors couldn't help me find. Like sometimes you get really good stuff from it. Sometimes you're just hearing someone else say something and you're like, oh, I'm not the only one who's ever felt that way or been that scared. And then obviously there's unhealthy versions of it, but I'm so fascinated by it. And I think we can do it with like fictional characters too. Thousand percent. No, you're exactly right. That's the perfect word is this pair is that it's this parisocial relationship. And like I think as parisocial relationships increasingly

become a bigger part of all of our lives, um, I just think that this question becomes all the more like vital and important. And I, I completely agree. Like everything in life, it has its like downsides and its incredible upsides. And I, in my, in a book called Future Saints, which will be out yeah, in 2026. Yeah. I'm thinking about this too in really more, less around, well, a little bit around death, but, but more about like a woman who all of a sudden has a lot of fans. Yeah. Who had developed all these parasocial relationships with her. Um, because it's a book about a woman ascending into stardom in the music business.

And the, like, start to refer to it as like ghosts on the internet who are haunting her. And so, yeah, all of this is like, because it's like this parisocial relationship where, you know, they're talking amongst themselves and saying like, I have this one-sided relationship with, you know, Hannah, the main character, the musician, where she has helped me understand grief and grief for my, like, mother. And yet she doesn't know I exist. And I've, like, cut my hair to look exactly and dyed it to look like hers and all these other things. And it's like, is, this healthy? Is this? I know. You know, just like all those questions. Yes. That's like, what does it mean that this woman means so much to me and she has no clue who I am and never will.

And like at mass, like, so many people have a one-sided relationship with her. Like, that's the other. What definitely kicked it off for me was when the Erez tour started happening. Like, that was two years ago, I think, when it started happening. Yeah. And I, like, knew some of her music, but this was also still mostly my, like, return. to her since I was a teenager, I guess is the best way to say it. I was never like, oh, I hate her, just so no one comes for me. But I didn't know all the lore, which is kind of what you're talking about

here. And then she also Easter eggs. So I've also always said, I think I got so drawn. It's like, it's like being a thriller fan in some ways. You're like, oh, what clue am I missing? And how many things can I learn? And I need answers to everything. And I got so fascinated by that. And so, like, of my my fandom of Taylor Swift is my fascination with like the fact that she figured out how to amass that much attention and the fact that it has there's music of hers that has helped me be like oh my god like she just says that i'm not alone in this says the right thing in a song and you're like wow that made me process it but she doesn't know anything about me not a single thing and there was this book I was reading called Everybody

Knows by Jordan Harper. Shout out Holly Sutton recommended that one to me. I was going to say I'm probably from Hallie, but I heard so many great things about that book. Yeah, it's really good. It's a really, really good L.A. noir, but there's like this sentence where

the main character who's kind of like a PR fixer, essentially, is on set and she kind of like turns around and then it's like, Ryan Gosling walks by me. And then she's like and then I'm reminded how strange an experience it is to like see a celebrity whose face I've seen more images and frames of than my closest friends. And I was like my mind was like blown

because I was like that's exactly what it is. Like even the people I'm closest to, I've seen more photos of even like probably like someone I'm not a total fan of. But like just because they're celebrity, I've seen more of their face. So it is just it's wild the way that we can have different relationships. And what happens, like this book will bury me is very interested in the question, what happens when you have a parissocial relationship with dead people, with the victims, and with their families and with just like the people involved in the case? Like what happens when you have this extremely intense parasycial, emotional relationship to a case and the victims at the heart of it? and both the like the beauty of emotionally investing in strangers and feeling a desire to find justice for them and the creepiness of having a pariscial relationship with strangers and who have died and feeling a sense of ownership over them and possessiveness over them.

And just so all the true crime fans who may be listening to this don't like totally freak out and get offended. Like I was, I, that was, that's a critique levied at myself also as a consumer of true crime. So if I am wrestling with these questions, which I certainly am in this book, I'm wrestling. They're like personally directed as much as they are directed outside. So. Well, all of that together, what you just said. I was going to mention because what you're saying being able to even be connected to someone that much who's not alive was reminding me there's a part in the book where she says my mom

used to say I was overly attuned to people as if I were a radio receiver stuck on the wrong channel. I was like, oh my God. I was like, well, now I know what I'm going to call my like hyper empathy since everyone says they're having empathy. I'm like, I'm just going to call myself overly attuned instead of being like I'm such an empath. But I feel like that's even prevalent in your other stories as well as what also kind of came up for me. I feel like you're not afraid to like talk about like being your characters tend to be people who are very sensitive even though they have like their own experiences and plots. And that can be such an overwhelming feeling to have the way to live through the world that way.

is that coming from personal experience? It will not surprise you to hear that yes indeed. It is becoming, it is coming like so much in this book. That is coming from personal experience. And that is the reality of my life and always has been. And I think, you know, I really do think that so much of what draws people to books, both reading and writing them is having, like being very attuned people, we'll say. And so, and wanting to find an outlet for that or like a safe space for that.

So writing is how I deal with it and process that. And reading is also how I deal with and process that. And I like to write about, like you said, characters that share that sensibility and are struggling with it. Right. Because it helps me process myself. I remember being, I want to say like eight or nine years old. And I had this habit when I was a young kid of just really, really overinvesting in my friendships and like being obsessed with my friends and just wanting to do anything for them or talk about them 24-7. And, And having a consistent pattern where my friends were just not that into me.

Like, no, but it was okay. They were normal. Right. I know. They were, I guess I hate the word normal. They were average invested. Like, they were perfectly fine. They just weren't matching me at 150%.

Right. And I remember, like, having the emotional come down and the, like, the sadness. And my mom. kind of at one point, bless her, sat me down and was like, Ashley, you are either, this is who you are. I need you to just accept this about yourself. And you're either going to have one or two experiences. You're going to go through life investing in people because you can't help it. Like, you can't help giving, being this kind of person, an empath or overly attuned or to invest or whatever you want to call it. And you're just going to be constantly disappointed when people don't reciprocate.

or, and I hope that you choose this other path, you are going to know this about yourself, know that you're going to do this, and walk away hands off, and like, let that be and not need people to reciprocate and understand that they're not going to do it. And you're just going to continue doing it because that's who you are and that's what makes you happy. And you're not going to need the return. And so that changed me forever. I bet. It's wise. I mean, it's so wise, right? And I think I'm like 89 years old, it definitely took me a while to like fully come to grips with what that meant. And then choosing a career as a writer and has been like a whole new learning about it because in some ways you could view being a writer as putting 150% of yourself

into this book package that you then put out into the world and you're hoping people are going to reciprocate with love and like it's going to resonate and people are going to really enjoy it. But you have to learn to be okay with people disliking it, hating it, feeling very mad or apathetic about it. You know, you have to be okay with en masse that not the lack of reciprocation. So I think I actually came up with a good emotional building block for my future career, not even realizing it. Learning to like let go of the reactions that people have to who I am and what I do. Let them. Let them have a little reaction. Right. I know. I need to read that book.

I know. Everyone's talking about it. Yeah. The left them theory. I'm like, sorry, guys, I'm reading my thrillers. Yep. Yeah. I do. It just can be overwhelming when you feel big feelings and they're just big. I was trying to think of Pete Holmes is, he's a comedian and has a really cool kind of like, philosophical-ish podcast.

And he sometimes talks about how like how it can feel so scary to be so open-hearted sometimes to the world. Because then all of a sudden you are feeling like deep sadness for like everyone who's like life is life isn't great. Or like it can be so intimidating to like stay open-hearted sometimes because there's also so much pain. but that like it's where you also connect with people and I've always just like resonated with the way he describes like sometimes having it completely open is just so overwhelming and so then you do have to and I think you just mentioned this but if you're in therapy that's typically where you get to learn you learn like boundaries and then you learn I finally did too you do learn that you can be like this is where I end and this is where you begin and then you just have to like

convince yourself, like, actually, mentally, I don't have to absorb everyone's feelings, even though I'm, like, noticing them. But it takes time and it's hard. It is so hard. And, and again, I imagine this is true for Pete Holmes, if he's a comedian, like, and, you know, you're putting your podcast out there. You're creating things and putting it out there. It's like, you not only have to do that kind of like interpersonal boundary setting with the people in your life. But when you are a creator putting something out in the world, you have to convince yourself that people's reactions to what you've put out in the world, that you don't have to take that in, own that, you know, like that also. You have to draw a boundary there. And that's really

hard too when you're a creator because you're like, well, part of why I'm even writing this is to have a conversation with you. And so it's a conversation with you. capital you, like all of you, everyone, the many various readers. And so just it's, it requires just constant navigation and reminding yourself and reestablishing boundaries. And I think all these questions, just to bring it back to true crime, are so relevant in the true crime space. Like the, the lack of boundaries is like one of the hallmarks of modern, modern true crime. And like, the thing that was interesting me so much about the University of Idaho case was like the absolute lack of boundaries that slews and true crime consumers felt around the

case. Like, not only did they feel a sense of possessiveness, but they felt like, like people descended into the small town where the crime happened and, you know, went in person to the bar and like some of the important parts of like the victims where they were seen last and were doing their own interrogations. And journalists were writing about it and describing it as like this new phase of true crime where people are like stepping through the screens. into really just like physically inserting them in these stories. And so that was really, that was really fascinating to me. And that's why I wanted to write, yet another reason why I wanted to write about Idaho specifically

is because it was this like kind of watershed. It is this watershed moment building on, of course, like the Gabby Petito case where just received such an outsized huge amount of attention and people really investing. But just, yeah, like, what is it? What is the future of true crime look like if people are growing more and more comfortable, you know, actually showing up in person? And so just wrestling with all those questions and like, where does that, like, is the lack of boundaries, the future, what is that bad? Like, I come at everything with, I hope,

an academic curiosity and open-mindedness where I'm not coming in with a pre-formed idea on any subject that I'm interested in. I'm not coming in saying like, oh, all sleuths, you know, or doing something bad or whatever, or true crime is absolutely de facto exploitative. Right. I think that there is so much nuance. And like, like we were saying, beauty and goodness in the true crime complex. Right. But I also think that there are just so many questions still to be answered about it. Right. And I'm participating, I'm asking these questions as I'm participating in it. In fiction. In fiction. Also, I'd love to point out that also, like, you're writing fiction. Yeah. I just felt like saying that.

Yeah. I don't know why. Yeah. What you were just talking about kind of reminds me because it is there's, it's a tricky conversation because I love a vigilante in a story. Like, love it. But I fundamentally understand we can't just have a bunch of vigilantes running around either. Like that doesn't solve the overall problem either. That, that doesn't solve the overall problem either. like some of humanity is evil like it's it's like you you can't do both but then i love the story so it was it was also making me there i love vigilante and revenge stories i just love revenge stories really but um it was making me think how jordy's book club i think was he the one who said it was kind of this book was kind of like don't fuck with cats yes something else and i read that before i read that like he's always so confident at like i feel like i every time he says says a tagline about one of my books, it becomes like my new marketing copy. Yeah. So good at that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jordy. Yeah. Well, and then, and then what that made me think about is

we all think of those internet sleuths as like heroes. Like no one's going to be like we all, we're all okay with that because of like the outcome. Like is that what it is like because of the outcome and because it was different than like a mass murder. I don't. I don't know why we're, but we're all very, like, no one is complaining about them. Like, that's like a positive version. And at least my experience, when I read your book, I don't have complaints about Jane. I'll just say that to not have spoilers. I won't say it all have complaints about anyone, I guess, as a character.

But it's so interesting how we pick and choose, like, which ones we're okay with. So I agree. I feel like it's perfectly okay. to have that conversation, especially in fiction. Part of the reason why I think Jane might come across as a little more palatable is, well, it's because she, A, does have a moral compass that she tries really hard to stick to. B, she is very forthright about her shortcomings. Like she is going to be in this memoir, going to be the first person to tell you, like, where she messed up and what she regret.

And what she, you know, like the fact that she's going to be the first person to show you her flaws. And to reveal, like, be like, yeah, I'm an unreliable narrator, which ironically then turns around and makes her like a much more trustworthy. Exactly. Yeah. Because he's not hiding anything. from us. She's like, it's like how being around someone who's self-aware is, even if they have annoying habits, it's still better if they're self-aware than if they're not aware of it. And you're like, oh, God. You're like, oh, that is a glaring blind spot for you. Okay. How do you navigate

us. Yeah. But it is. It's interesting the way we choose which stories are okay. And which when people doing the exact same things, when they're heroic and when they're exploitative and villainous. And sadly, a lot of it is arbitrary. Like, a lot of it's just like vibes. You know? Yeah. Or anyway, everyone should, by the way, if you're listening and you need a recommendation for a documentary. Watch don't F with cats. And I guess we can curse on this podcast. You can. You don't have to. I'm so you see censoring myself. Yeah.

But it's, but I will also say, like, if you are an animal lover, like, I'm sure everyone in the world, I had to fast forward through parts of that documentary, because I simply can't. And even fast forwarding through it, there are parts of it that will haunt me until my I could only read about it. And I'm even allergic to cats. but I was like, I can only read about this one. Yep. Yep. No, it's, it's, that's a really compelling documentary, but it is rough.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. Well, um, I know you read a bunch too. Yeah. You read anything recently that you loved. Oh, everything. Um, I, yeah, I just, I'm really, really lucky because all the books that I get asked to blur. are like the books that would be on my TBR anyway. So I'm going back through, reading back through the Finley-Donovan series right now because I'm going to be talking to El Casamano later in March about her latest Finley-Donovan digs her engrave. So I'm just having so much fun revisiting the series to kind of get to that next book. So that's super fun. we're all obsessed with the favorites by Lane Fargo all of the world, all of America, as we rightfully should be.

Lane is amazing. So that's like every time someone asks me for a book wreck these days, I'm like, the favorites, you know? No matter what genre you like. Yeah, exactly. Easy peasy. And I have read, I have a ton of debuts on my to read list. I loved Saltwater by Katie Hayes. I'm reading that right now. I love it so far. Good. That's my, she's one of my

Pub Day twins. Her book is also coming up March 25th. I really need to read Hannah Morrissey's unlucky ones, which will also be out. Me too. That's next for me. Yep. Love her Black Harbor series. Yeah. So there's just, it's an embarrassment of riches like this, this, I know. I know. 25, this publishing season. Yeah. There's just so much great greatness out there. Yeah, we just, well, we're recording this a month ahead of time. But we just did our like spring 2025 thrillers episode. And I'm like, there's so many I want to read, but I said I was going to read backlist, too. I know.

I know. It's, it is hard. It is hard, especially because I'm sure as a like influencer and reviewer, you have a constantly piling up, TBR. And it's the exact same way with being like a blurber. You constantly have to be like, it's like, okay, well, all right, I've just done, I've just finished this book, blurbed it sweet. Now I'm going to get to this book from a year ago that I really wanted to read and has been like sitting on my bedside table. And then it's like, another request comes in. You're like, okay. I know. Just put it to the side again.

But I'm sure it's the exact same way with like book reviewers, the bookstagram community. I know. Because it will be like that sometimes where like I'll have been requesting books on that galley for a few months. And all of a sudden I'm like, okay, in May, I already have 10 books. So I need to stop. But then someone sends me like, if severance were a book. And then I'm like, oh, well, I have to request it.

Yeah. I literally cannot say no to this. I guess I'm just going to have 11 books in May. Can I tell you something very sacrilegious? Yes. I do not like severance. That's okay. It's not for everyone.

I'm okay with that. I know. I want to like it. This is how I felt about here's my sacrilegious, which I've said it already. I didn't like a Nora. Oh. Everyone loved Nora and I felt the exact same way. I was like, I was like, I.

want to love this. I'm supposed to love this. And I'm just like, I'm so bored. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. That's how I feel about severance. I'm like, right. And I completely understand how it can be boring. See, this is why art's so cool because it's okay. You know, like, I can both say that I do not like severance and don't find it enjoyable. And also say, severance, I completely believe that it is incredible prestige TV. Right. Doing amazing things. Like, Both of those things can be true. Yeah. It's all so subjective.

It's so subjective. And like you can acknowledge that something is really smart and well done and just not for you. Yeah. That's what I have been telling. I am secretly hoping that the fact that I've like reviewed books and read so many books and had the experience myself where I'm like, this should work for me, but I couldn't even tell you why it's not. I'm hoping that. that then when I finish my book, that experience will stick with me.

And I'll be like, remember, remember how chill you were about it as a consumer. Like, don't take it personally. That's what my hope is. Yeah. I'm sure it will to a certain extent, but there is a mania that overtakes you with your first book. I would imagine. It is a psychological disorder that belongs to the DSM. I'm not joking.

Like it is, it is a really unique experience. Your first book, God bless. You know, that's like, no matter how calm, cool, collected and

smart you are, you, it's like, no, you lose your problems. Exactly. It's so close to your, like, self. It's so close to yourself. Mm-hmm. It's the one, it's the first one.

It's, you know, and it's like, even if you've written other books to like, and they're in your drawer or whatever, if this is the book you're like going out with or hoping people will look at, it's like everything who's writing on it. I know. As an overly attuned person, I just feel like I'm going to have lots of feelings about it. Yeah. You just have to like constantly do that. boundary reminder. Like, this does not reflect on me as a person. And even if it doesn't work out with this book, I have many more ideas and like I have

so many lives to live, you know? Right. So many more options. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Well, thank you for talking with me so much about your book. Thank you.

I love it. Thank you. So much. Thank you for the incredible questions and just like reading this book with such like generosity and such intelligence and it's just a gift seriously to like yeah be able to have these kinds of conversations good um so thank you kate you're so welcome