Bookwild - Assassins Anonymous by Rob Hart: What if an Assassin Swore Off Killing But People From His Past Are Coming For Him?

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

This week, I talk with Rob Hart about his new action packed thriller Assassins Anonymous.  We dive into how he came up with the idea for an assassin who swears off killing for moral reasons, why musicals and action movies are similar, and how he created an empathetically accessible assassin as a main character.Assassins Anonymous SynopsisIn this clever, surprising, page-turner, the world’s most lethal assassin gives up the violent life only to find himself under siege by mysterious assailants. It’s a kill-or-be-killed situation, but the first option is off the table. What’s a reformed hit man to do?Mark was the most dangerous killer-for-hire in the world. But after learning the hard way that his life’s work made him more monster than man, he left all of that behind, and joined a twelve-step group for reformed killers.When Mark is viciously attacked by an unknown assailant, he is forced on the run. From New York to Singapore to London, he chases after clues while dodging attacks and trying to solve the puzzle of who’s after him. All without killing anyone. Or getting killed himself. For an assassin, Mark learns, nonviolence is a real hassle.  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Today I'm back with one of my very favorite authors with definitely one of my favorite reads of 2024. I'm with Rob Hart, who wrote Assassins Anonymous, which is just this really unique approach to your action assassin thriller, where the main character has given up killing. Truly just like such a fun premise, but here's the synopsis. In this clever, surprising page turner, the world's most lethal assassin gives up the violent life only to find himself under siege by mysterious assailants. It's a killer-be-killed situation, but the first option is off the table.

What's a reformed hitman to do? Mark was the most dangerous killer for hire in the world, but after learning the hard way that his life's work made him more monster than man, he left all of that behind and joined a 12-step group for reformed killers. When Mark is viciously attacked by an unknown assailant, he's forced on the run. From New York to Singapore to London, he chases after clues while dodging attacks and trying to solve the puzzle of who's after him, all without killing anyone, or getting killed himself. For an assassin, Mark learns nonviolence is a real hassle. I will say the kind of tongue-in-cheek humor of this synopsis very much mirrors Mark's kind of sardonic voice as a narrator, and I just third.

I really enjoyed it. The action sequences are so fun, and I actually talk to Rob about how he writes his action sequences and the way he, like, diagrams them. It's very cool. And we also dive into making an assassin an empathetic character for a reader to attach to. So let's get into it.

So when I was reading the synopsis, like before I had read the book, I was like, this is such a cool concept, because we've had, I feel like in movies and probably other books too, there have been people who get out of the game of being an assassin, maybe just because like they're done or they're tired or whatever. But I feel like we hadn't seen or heard the approach of someone who chose to do it for moral reasons. So how did you come up with the idea of an assassin who decides to stop using violence or to reform himself? I think it was kind of in recognition of that trope.

I was watching Nobody with Bob Odenkirk, which is kind of like a... Yes. Yeah, it's like a spin on John Wick. And, you know, it's every one of these stories. It's always the same. It's like one of these guys decides he doesn't want to be an assassin anymore and he stops, but then gets nudged and then slaughters like 100 people. And it was like, okay, cool, like it works.

And I'm not saying anything critical of those stories because I love them. They're great. But I was like, you know, wouldn't it be interesting if one of these guys didn't do that? And then when I thought about it in terms of like, oh, 12-step recovery, that could be interesting. Then I had sort of like a mechanism to explore it because then there's sort of a guardrail system in place. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I really loved the approach so much. I love that movie too.

Nobody was so good. Like, we still talk about that one sometimes, where I'm like, I want to watch something like that movie. But yeah, it really is, like it is typically they get out for a very different reason. And so then it, like, it added this whole other edge to him having to, like, navigate people coming after him. So kind of related. We saw the fall guy here recently, and what I thought was really cool about that one was it was almost like he had a superpower in that he was a stunt guy.

So then like when he was in an action situation in real life, he had skills that like a normal person wouldn't have. And then it was reminding me of this book just that instead it was like he had a handicap. So it was like making it harder for him to protect himself because he's actually trying to not kill people anymore, basically. So with this one, was your writing process any different than your other books? I would say this one came a lot easier, actually, than the last two, because the Paradox Hotel was speculative, time travel and all this wild stuff. and the warehouse was, you know, basically a takedown of late stage capitalism. And again, like in the speculative realm. So those were very research-intensive books, whereas this one I just kind of sat down and I banged out some outlining stuff.

But, I mean, it came together really quickly. And in part was because I didn't have to do as much research, but also like I'm a junkie for action stuff. And that challenge of how does this guy operate? when he's very, very deadly, but suddenly can't be that way. It was great because I just kept on throwing all these fun little wrenches into what I was doing. It just forced me to kind of think on the fly almost in the way that he was doing. And so I was surprised at how quickly this one came together. Yeah, that's cool.

So I've talked to a couple different authors who write action scenes. Do you have a specific way that you approach it or are you kind of just like, in the moment writing it as it kind of like comes to your mind. I really choreographed them pretty heavily. I draw diagrams. Like the whole fight scene in Singapore and the hotel room, like I had to sit down and sort of block that whole thing out because it had to make sense.

Because when you've got one guy who's fighting a whole bunch of different guys, there has to be a sense of like progression and movement through the scene. And, you know, and I think I'm kind of helped along, too, by the fact that I do some fight training. I trained in Krav Magh for years, and I'm doing Muay now. And it kind of helps with the reality of it. And not to say that this is, like, super realistic, you know, it's still kind of like playing in that fantasy realm. But I think that fighting is giving me a better sense of geography, of what a body is capable of, of, you know, the kinds of things. that you can you can just deal with in a fight you know and and you know it's funny like watching like

john wick it's like man four minutes into that he would be so gassed he wouldn't even be able to lift his arms and again like you're playing in the fantasy realm and it's cool but having that added layer of like knowing how a body is going to react when it hits certainly helps yeah that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned Singapore was one of the places. It takes place in New York and Singapore and London. Are those places you've been to or were there reasons that you chose them? Absolutely. Yeah. I always like to write about places I've been because then I get exciting. So I'm like, oh, maybe a little invite me back. Yeah. But, you know, Singapore kind of served a good purpose in terms of that portion of the story because the main character mark is in a situation

where he needs to find someone who's kind of in a neutral territory but also has a very strict sense of law enforcement so his ability to like carry a weapon is is hamstrung and uh and with london i just thought it would be fun to set something in london i just i like that town it's weird um yeah it's like bizarre in new york city everything is the same but slightly different. But I also, in writing this kind of book, I think part of the fun is being able to go to certain places, like go to like international settings and see how these characters kind of deal with that and react. Yeah. Yeah, I tend to like when I talk about books that are international in that way, it like reminds me of spy thrillers, even though this isn't like

he's not a spy, but it feels more like those kind of action movies when they are not just in America for some reason. So it definitely helps move it along. So the book, like there's definitely character development that happens for Mark. Before we meet him, it's even happening. That's like what's gotten him to the point of choosing to not kill people anymore. But there's also like so much. So much so many of the like really classically fun like action scenes as well. So were you like conscious of how you fit in like character development and action scenes like figuring out that balance? Oh yeah. Yeah. And that's always the challenge on stuff like this is that, you know,

the action scenes have to be cool and they have to be exciting, but they also have to inform the character and they have to show you how that character is changing and growing. And I use this as a teaching example all the time is that if you think about it, kung fu movies and musicals are pretty much the same thing. It's just a matter of whether they're singing or fighting. But you've got a series of set pieces, you've got escalating action, you've got people who, you know, as they come together and their emotions hit a critical point, there's some kind of action.

And a good action scene, a good fight scene, a good song, it tells you about that character, it tells you about where they are, it tells you what they're capable of, it tells you what they can do. So that that's part of the design process of putting together a really good scene, is figuring out the way to do it that's going to be most informative for the audience. That is going to, like, stick in my head forever, the fact that they're the same as musicals. That, like, is such a good example that I had never thought about, but that's, like, exactly what it is.

Like, breaking into song is just, like, sharing, like, the strength of your feelings about something at that moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a silly example. And whenever I use it, people are like, oh my God, that makes sense. And that's why I just keep going back with it. I know. Yeah, it works so well. One of the things that I noticed, especially in some of the action scenes, but specifically, I don't think this is vague enough. It doesn't feel like a spoiler. But there's a part where there are two guys who keep coming after him and he basically incapacitates them instead of killing them and he's even kind of in his head slash with another character talking about how it would be easier if he could just kill them because they couldn't just keep finding him and keep coming after him.

And I was realizing that as a reader in that moment, I was even like, just kill them. Like, just do it. Like, they're coming after you. Like, you have reason to do it. Like, why not just do it? Like, this seems to be something that makes sense or a time that makes sense to kill someone. And I was like, oh, okay. So even as a reader, I've, like, become a part of the problem. Was that, like, were you intentionally even trying to get to the reader to a point where we're just like, just do it? Like, it's not a big deal. You know, I wouldn't necessarily say that. But I'm glad you brought that up.

That's really interesting. What I was trying to go for was this idea that, you know, we watch John Wick, right? And we watch him shoot 100 people in the head. And we're like, that's so cool. But when you think about it, like every single one of those people, they had a family. You know, like whether they were a bad guy or not, like there's someone on this planet who cared about them and their life is going to be worse now that they're dead. And again, this isn't any kind of indictment because that's just the way the storytelling works. But it always struck me as kind of interesting that we as the audience create these moral lines in terms of like who's right and who's wrong and who's allowed to do what.

but if you were to move that over into reality, I mean, you know, Mark is, he's going on, he's killing people. You know, we're not supposed to do that. That's bad. That's frowned upon. Yeah. And that's why that moral gray area is such a fun space to play in because it's sort of, I wanted to kind of challenge the idea of, you know, the righteousness of it and the right and wrong of it. And that's something that even Mark has to come around to is that realization that, you know, you know, you know, the assassin character, it's, it's that sort of really classic outside the law archetype, like

the gunslinger or the private eye or the samurai, like someone who will sort of, has a sense of justice that kind of transcends the law, because we know the law is not always, you know, well applied. It's not always, the law is not always just. So we kind of love these characters who are willing to take on their own sense of justice and try to apply that own sense of justice. But the question is, is who they're applying it for. You know, I mean, Mark is working with the agency that's saying, you know, oh, no, we only kill the people who deserve to be killed, who, you know, we're going to make them a better place.

But, I mean, is that really the case? Or are they using him as a tool to kill people who are troublesome rather than bad? Yeah. You know, and who decides that they're troublesome. And again, it's like that moral gray area is just such a fantastic place of, like, you know, putting you in a position of deciding, like, well, does someone deserve to live or die? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he kind of, throughout the book, comes back to, like, when he was just taking orders, he could look at it, like, math. So it's, like, it's really easy for us to think, like, oh, this person was going to do something that would kill thousands of people. And so then it feels okay to just kill one person. but it's like how, like you're saying, how sure can you really be that you're killing them is actually going to save all those people?

It's still kind of hypothetical, but you could use it to justify killing someone. Yeah, it's like the entire book is basically just one big trolley problem, you know? It's like, do I do nothing like my people die or do I do something and choose someone to die? Yeah. And I'm excited for people to read it just so I, because I'm like, like, you're in a lot of life. interpretation of it and your reaction to it is fantastic. And now I get to get in that place where it's like, you know, there might be people who just completely disagree with all of it or there might be people who, you know, start parsing it out. It's, it's, it's just fun to see people's reactions.

Yeah, I bet it is, especially, yeah, just all the questions that it really brings up. And it, you really approached it like with using Assassins Anonymous, you kind of modeled it after the, 12-step program that isn't narcotics anonymous too but like started with alcoholics anonymous and you approached it like it was an addiction um to kind of like having that power and the wit well and kind of like the god god complex that you have when you have that kind of power so how did you approach i know in the acknowledgments you said you talked to some friends who were in the program how did you approach like melding an addiction for killing people into a 12-step program? That was, you know, and that was something that I entered with a high level of care for what I was doing.

You know, I didn't want it to be like a, I don't know, like window dressing or just, you know, oh, like this is a fun little park. I wanted to take it as seriously as I could. but in terms of actually putting it together, I mean, it wasn't that hard in the sense that, you know, first off, it doesn't have to be a substance to be addicting.

You know, like sex can be addicting and get like can be addicting and all of those things. And, and we're dealing in the realm of like positive reinforcement where you have someone who is being giving a lot of praise and a lot of money and being told how great they are for this thing that they're doing. But,

you know, even in looking into issues related to, addiction there was you know a lot of research on how there are similarities in brain structure between people who kill and addicts not to say addicts are all killers or anything but it's just it has to do with like certain structures in the brain and things like oh I'm completely forgetting the term right now like impulse control and stuff like that oh yeah so like the the way it dovetailed was was was pretty interesting yeah and the it was making me think too because he

he even calls himself an adrenaline junkie or just that he loves the adrenaline of it all multiple times too. And that has to, that reminds me randomly. That just reminded me of like years ago Justin Bieber did an interview where he was saying that like he got to a point where after his concerts he'd be on such a high. And then he would like leave and go to like his hotel room or whatever. And he would just be depressed for like days after it because there was just like, nothing like the high of having that many people, like, screaming for you and, like, singing your songs. And, like, he had to, like, figure out how to get it under control because his, like, regular life wasn't even interesting to him anymore. So it really, it really can be anything that

gets you high or quote unquote high. Yeah. Yeah. Brain chemistry is a wild thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked that, like, I liked the approach of, like, he really, he also really liked doing it, Mark, not Justin Bieber anymore, that he really liked doing it because he also was good at it. Like, I think sometimes we discount just how thrilling it is to be good at something. And so you can just convince yourself like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do because I'm good at it. And like, it feels, it just does feel good to be good at something. So that kind of even just kept him in there.

Yeah, I mean, every time I get a good review for one of my books, it's a little shot of dope straight into my veins. Right. Right. Did you do any research for, like, what assassins are like, or, like, what it's like to do that role? Or was it just kind of, like, what you've read and been around that we've all been around? I mean, it kind of, it kind of comes from a place of, like, familiarity with the genre. I've always been a really big fan of the genre.

So that was definitely part of it. You know, I've heard some interesting stories from people who live interesting lifestyles, you know, and I'll kind of leave it at that. But that also, that kind of helped inform it a little bit too. But yeah, no, overall, I just, I think the, because the thing is, is like, writing is like trying to trying to tap into that sort of like commonality, that common threat, you know, that that whole feeling of like what, what is it that the ties us together rather than drives us apart? And it's a book about assassins, but it's also a book about, you know, me looking back at the things that I've done in my life and feeling regret and wanting to be better at the things that I'm doing

and wanting to try to make amends and want to grow and want to change. So, I kind of just tried to lean into that feeling of like, not necessarily like, because I don't know what it's like to be in those shoes, but I do know what it's like to look back at things with regret and wish I had done them differently and say, okay, well, you know, going forward, how can I be better? Yeah. Yeah, that's a cool approach. Because the next thing I was going to ask about is he needed to, for us to connect to Mark as a character. We needed him to kind of be, a way to feel empathetic for him even when he was killing as well. And some of it, I think, is that, like, when we're with him in the present, we're seeing that he regrets how he did act. I think that helps some of it. But was that, like, a big focus for you, too?

Was, like, how do I keep him, like, accessible to people? That was the biggest challenge. and that's why I made a decision very early on that Mark was going to be very funny. He was going to be charming and kind of a sweet dude because, you know, and it's not really a spoiler to say this, but like obviously he's a professional assassin. He's one of the best in the world. He's going to hit a rock bottom if he gets into recovery. And what does a rock bottom for a character like that look like? It's got to be something pretty bad.

And so I decided right at the day. jump, I was like, this guy's got to be really, really, really cool. Like, you have to want to hang out with him. You have to feel for him. Because once we get to that rock bottom moment, it's going to be really easy to walk away from him, you know? Yeah. And so I think in making him funny, that kind of helps alleviate some of the, some of the issues that might have arisen there. But I also just love this idea of like this guy being like super chill and super funny and super nice. And then like at the drop of a hat he could just like murder an entire room of people right yeah yeah his rock bottom moment is heartbreaking like it was one of those things where like I wasn't expecting it as I was reading it

and then as we were getting to the scene I was like oh no like it was like seconds before we knew what it actually was I was like oh my gosh I could see how this could be terrible and then it was terrible. Oh my gosh. I felt so, I felt so bad for him. But I felt like it did when you get to that point, you're like, oh, that would make someone want to stop. Like that is definitely something that could like open your eyes to the fact that maybe you don't want to live your life. So it's kind of like that you don't want to be so black and white about stuff too is like part of what his realization was is what it felt like to me. But the other fun thing, you were talking about how he's funny. The other fun thing about the book is there are so many movie, I don't know if there were

TV show, there are true detective showed up, so many movie and TV show references that I loved. So you've kind of said that you were, you've been an action fan this whole time. But like how much fun were you having, like incorporating what I'm assuming might be some of your favorites if they were like coming to mind for you? you know initially I didn't want to do that I tend to be resistant to you know dropping pop culture stuff into a book because I feel like it can date it or it can feel like the author being like I put this band in that my main character is listening to because I think this band is cool but it seemed to me that like you know Mark in particular but I figure assassins maybe in general might live kind of like a lonely lifestyle um so So what is he going to do at this time, but sit around and watch movies? But I also love this idea of him being in a situation with a character who is not an assassin, who is then quizzing him about the accuracy of assassin movies.

I was like, oh, that just seems silly and fun. So I'm going to do that. Yeah. But then getting to, like, you know, kind of weave in movies, like, it's a wonderful life. Yeah. And then, you know, name check silly stuff that I love, like Willy Wonka. the way that it's one of those things again that like I wouldn't necessarily set out to do but as I was doing it I'm like oh no this actually works I think I'll stick with it yeah yeah I love it there was what was it

Mandy McHugh she had um a book come out called it takes monsters and I was like trying to even make a list I did it with yours too and it was like more than 10 but I was like trying to keep a list of all of the like movie and TV show references she made because she was just making so many of them. But as someone who just consumes stories in like every form possible, it made it more enjoyable for me. I guess I could see how like with some people it might take them out of it. But I always think it's fun when books do stuff like that.

It just like makes it more fun for me as well. What was the other thing? Oh, so I saw on her name is Amy, mom advice on. on BookSgram, but she was mentioning that it is already going to be a series. Is that, I mean, I'm assuming if she said it, that's true. But there's definitely going to be a second one because we are going to get off this podcast and I'm going to go back to work editing it. Oh, yeah.

Whether it becomes like a long-running series is going to depend a lot on the first one sells. So anyone who's listening to this should definitely go buy like five copies and give them out to your friends. I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, publishing will dictate where it goes. The thing that's nice is that it did get options as a film and a potential film series by Amlin and Spielberg, which is still kind of ridiculous to even say. That is so exciting, though. Yeah, yeah.

But the thing that I like about this is that this is something that I could tell these stories for a very long time. and that's part of the function of the group setting where you've got like a 12-step program. You've got a group of people who, you know, I mean, I'll tell you this much. The second book is not all Mark. It actually follows Mark and another character from the same meeting. So I get to sort of branch out. And like I can see writing a book that's completely following a character that never got a POV in any of the previous books. Yeah.

But then also like new people. will come in and people will go out and it's sort of like a it's like a fun rotating cast so yeah i already have a couple of ideas for where i want to go on the future but i'm also kind of just totally focused on getting the second one done um so that it's actually good and makes sense but yeah you know i i i try the the the only real challenge too is like figuring out a way to kind it can't this mark's whole journey is like you know i feel inclined to kill people i don't want to kill people anymore um and finding like a different access point every time you know it's sort of like that uh it's kind of like that challenge that you have when you're adapting like a superhero right

because superhero characters kind of have to stay static as a function of their history and who they are but they also kind of have to grow and change too it's finding that narrow line that you can walk where you can explore new stories and have them grow, but also not have them grow so much that they're unrecognizable. Yeah. And it's cool. It's like, it's not anthology, because it's not like everything would be different in every single book, but it's cool of the approach that like you could just spend time with different characters who are just loosely related to the same, like, Assassin's Anonymous group. But when I had actually seen, I had seen that she mentioned that there would be another one before I read it. And so then

when I got to the end, I thought the ending was so perfect, because it still resolves the things that you want resolved. But I could definitely see another direction that it could be going in. So I'm excited. But there will for sure be a second one is what you are saying. It's just whether there are more. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm contracted for it. My editor likes the idea. at the page that you write so far. So that's really good. I just have to land the plan. Nice.

There's always the challenge. That whole part is still a little bit intimidating. But that's also, that's kind of, that's, it's the weird thing about this process. So like, I'm now getting into the promo cycle for the first book. And the first book's been done since the middle of last year. I've now since written the second book. And so, and it's, it's almost finished. I'm submitting it probably by the end of next week.

Oh, wow. So now it's like, cool, I'm going to talk to Kate today and have to remember what the hell I wrote in the first book. Because it feels so gone to me at this point. Yeah. Because you move so much into the other story. I'm like, what can I say and what can I say? Because I don't want to spoil it. That's what I was going to say.

Is there stuff that like, you're like, wait, is that in the other one? Or can I even talk about it? Yeah, no. I mean, like, I'm, that's the thing. I'm not even telling you, like, who the other POV character is. I mean, you can probably guess based on having read the book. I might be able to. Yeah.

But if I say it, it spoils pretty much the whole of the first one. So it's like, okay, cool. Let's get back into this fun territory. Yeah. Yeah, that does have to be like the weirder part of writing is that by the time you're promoting, like, it's just been forever since you wrote it and you're in a whole other world that you're like spending most of your time in. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I don't remember like previous books. Like I have books that came out in like 2015, 2016. People will ask me questions about it. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. It was almost 10 years ago. Like, are you kidding me? Like, I went through the second book I ever wrote because I was looking for something

through City of Rose. And like I was reading it. It felt like a stranger wrote it. I'm like, I don't remember writing this stuff. But, you know, I've written six or seven. books and short stories and comics and all this other stuff since that. It's like, it's such a weird process. Yeah. Because I think you write a novel almost in somewhat of a fugue state, you know, you're just kind of like trying to convince yourself that you can finish it.

And by the time you get out of it, you're like, oh, oh, okay, I actually did that. Because then the next time you go to start a novel, you're like, I have no idea how to do this. Doesn't matter how many times. It's like an impossible task. Yeah, starting at zero again. That makes me feel a little bit better because I was just realizing I read, I beta read a book for someone last year. And so I think it was like seven or eight months ago. So I've read like, I don't know, like 40 books since then, basically. And I was trying to figure out how to prep for this podcast. And I'm like, I feel like I don't remember everything.

But if writers are even like forgetting their stuff eventually, I don't feel as bad about the fact that I'm like, I can't remember every detail of this book that I read forever. go. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's a lot to keep in your head. Yeah, someone asked me a question about my first book once and I was literally like, I have no idea what you're referencing. I can't answer that question. I've got literally nothing. Yeah, yeah. Well, that makes sense because I'm sure you read too. I see you post stuff. So between reading and writing and other stuff, you can't keep everything in your head. Our brains are not big enough. No, unfortunately. Well, as of today, when you're and this is dropped, it is available to buy everywhere.

So everyone needs to go buy it, and then hopefully we have you back for the second one in the future. I would love that. Thank you so much for having me on.