Bookwild - Audiobooks Steph and I Love: Fiction, Non-Fiction and Memoirs

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

This week, I was lucky enough to go to Chicago with Steph to see Julie Clark in conversation with Mary Kubica about her new thriller The Ghostwriter!! If you haven't seen the sprayed edges already, you need to. We had so much fun at the event, but also had the best time recording our first IRL episode! The reading gods smiled down on me and now specific fiction books work for me in audio form, so we decided to share some of our favorite audiobooks!Books We Talked AboutFinding Me by Viola DavisThis American Woman by Zarna GargCue the Sun! by Emily NussbaumGirl on Girl by Sophie GilbertThe Lion Women of Tehran by Marjan KamaliDon't Tell Me How to Die by Marshall KarpThe Good Sister Sally HepworthAllegedly Tiffany D. Jackson Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am IRL with stuff in my car. Hey-o! So I'm going to be distracted by people behind me every now and then because it looks like that guy was like walking up to the door. So we are in Chicago, Oak Brook, technically. The Burbs. Yeah. In a Burns and Elwood parking lot, kind of like a mall parking lot. But we're here to see Julie Clark in conversation with Mary Kubrick.

Yeah. So that's going to be so cool. I can't believe. I mean, Mary Kubica lives here, right? She lives in Chicago, I think so. I was thinking about that on my way, but I was like, I didn't know if I would ever see Mary Kubica. And then we saw this. And strangely enough, when I was just looking at the panels, she's going to be at Thriller Fest. So I might be around her twice in one week. And I'm like, how did that happen? But I think a lot of her books take place in Chicago. Where do they do, too? Because she's not sorry. Definitely was. I think that's what that one's called. The purple one. Purple and yellow instead of blue and yellow. While I was perusing before Kate got here, I did see some blue and yellows that I... One time, it looked kind of cool, but... Sometimes they are. I have some blue and yellow favorites.

Yes. For sure. But kind of fittingly, actually, both of us were listening to audiobooks on our way here. Yeah. And if you've been listening or, you know, watching any of my stories, I have slowly become an audio book early and I'm so excited. I actually don't know why I haven't asked you what you were listening to on the way here. I told you last night. You did. I'm listening to The Vanishing Half because we like talked about it. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And you said that you really loved the mothers too. So now I'm like, I'm sure I'll listen to that one at some point, too.

That was like one of my first books when I got back into reading. And I think. I think it was one of my first book of the month books. Oh, really? Yeah. I can't believe I, I mean, I wasn't reading anything but thrillers back then. Yeah. And like, now I'm like, how did I not read this any sooner? But I'm finally ahead on my neck galley.

So it was also like, oh, let's do it. I'm traveling. Yeah. But yeah, we thought it would be good to do an audiobook episode now that I've joined your side. She's come over. Well, it was funny in our last episode when Gare's like, I don't know if I'm going to be an audiobook person. I'm like, you still probably triple my amount of reading. Because when I started doing audiobooks, it was because I felt very overwhelmed by my TBR.

Yeah. And I was like, this is going to help me get through it. Oh, yeah. And then, and it did. And I was like, dude, you don't need them. You crank through so many books with your eyeballs. It's cool. It's amazing to me.

I can't believe how many books he reads. He's probably reading right now. Yeah. I am like, okay, so it's, it's, we could try calling him. I don't know. We'll see what we have time to do. Oh, yeah. But yeah, I was I going to say, oh, I was, it was dawning on me too.

I'm like, oh, I'm meeting to so many more books because it's like, I've listened to a lot of podcasts, which obviously turned out well for me. But there are some that I'm like, oh, I don't miss them. If I'm not like, oh, I have to go walk the dogs, what I'm going to listen to? Oh, I have to clean the kitchen. What am I going to listen to? instead I'm definitely more excited to listen to an audio book. Yes. Do you feel like it's been a, I know, to me, and I think you felt this way too.

It was easier to start with like memoirs or nonfiction and you work your way into fiction. Yeah. But it is a practice skill. It is. I agree. Especially with driving is what I realized because driving was the first time. When I went to see Ashley Winstead in April, Harriet Tubman Live in concert was the first fiction book I was able to listen to and I was listening while I was driving. And there were a couple times where I was like,

how am I having this visual and driving? And I think I freaked myself out. But now I'm like, oh, it just happens. Like you can kind of have something going on in the back of your mind. You're right. I've actually thought about that today when I started driving. I'm like, how does this make it go a little faster? Like, I'm still paying attention to both things. Right. Right. It was weird. And now I'm more used to it. So I think that helps. The other thing that I've of realize it's nice too. I was just like worn out a couple nights ago, whatever. Um, and Bruce was just being so whiny. So sometimes you just have to like switch locations, like switch rooms to make him happier. So I went downstairs and he was chill and it was dark. And I was

like, I'm just kind of like overstimulated or tired of like consuming. But I realized you can lay down and close your eyes and have a book read to you. So also it was like it felt like, it felt like, my brain still got a break, but I was still listening. So I'm just, I'm finding out all kinds of stuff now. It's a whole new world. It's a whole new world. Yeah. And it, and it, I loved Laura when I was posting about some fiction and we were talking about it. And she was like, not all audio books are created equal. No. And I agree with that. It does suck that sometimes you're like, oh, no, this voice isn't going to work for me. But I'm like finding them. Yeah. And I, so it's harder I've found. I'm always very pleasantly surprised when a book that maybe came out in like 2015,

2017 is a great audio production. Like, no offense towards that time, it just was a different. It might sound a little more robotic. They've come leaps and bounds as far as production goes. Yeah. But there are certainly some ones that were duds. And I actually had one on, I felt so bad for the author. I had one on Neck Galley recent, like within the last year that I just was like,

Did someone record this in their closet? Like, it just was unfortunate for the author. Oh, that's rough. It's good to sample. Yes, that's what I've learned. One of, I guess I do have a tip now, too. But if you pay for Spotify premium, which is just like you don't get ads is essentially what that level is. Like, it's not extra extra.

I think it's the only paid levels, what I'm saying. You get 15 hours of audiobook credits every month. So something I've done too is. is like I will listen there for a while. So that even if maybe if I'm still on the fence after hearing like the short audible or Libro sample, I will, I'll listen a little longer. And then if my brain does get like, oh, I'm really hooked. Yeah.

Then I get it on a different platform. Ooh, that's a good idea. So it's kind of a, it's kind of a nice way to like get to know if you like the audio enough. Wow. Yeah. What a hack. Yeah.

I love it. So Spotify hit me up. But what's kind of fun is the first fiction one that I tried since. So Harriet's Sime and Live in Concert really worked for me, but also the author, Bob, the Drag Queen. I've listened to him a lot. And so I think it felt familiar. And I already knew I liked listening to him. So I was like, okay, cool, this works for me.

And it was like a very, like, high, like a unique concept, but not. a complicated plot. So I was like, I loved that, will I love all the other ones? Because it's obviously not going to always be in the voice of people. I know. But King of Ashes came out this week. And I really wanted to read it. But I didn't know when I was going to fit it in. And I knew that you love the narrator so much. So I listened to that one and finish it in like three days. And it's like a 14-hour book. Is it really? I didn't even realize it went so fast for me. Yeah. Yep. So I loved that one so much. It's his name Adam Lizar White.

Adam Lazzar, yeah. He does all of S.A. Cosby's books, and his voice is so lovely. It's wonderful. Yeah. And it just like, it adds to it that, like, he really is, like, a voice actor, I think is the other part. Like, you really feel like you're having someone who, like, is into the story, tell you the story. To the point where I would say his voice makes me feel. like Morgan Freeman or Viola Davis.

Yes. Like that like really lovely sound that makes you feel like just genuine like listening pleasure. Yes. Mm-hmm. So you recommended Viola Davis's finding me when I was like asking about memoirs. And so that's actually that was actually. Is that your first one of them. One of my favorite parts too.

Obviously I knew I loved her voice because I've seen her in some of the things now too but I loved how like she was talking about how her mom like in the south she's vala that it's vala and so like now in my head she's vala davis essentially but it was cool getting to hear her say it um but her memoir is called finding me um and so she kind of does this really cool i mean it's kind of in the title it's it's kind of like truly from the time that she has a kid to the time that she felt like she had found her, like, true self, essentially, is what a lot of the story is working toward. So this is, sounds like her synopsis of it. In my book, you will meet a little girl named Viola who ran from her past until she made a life-changing decision

to stop running forever. This is my story from a crumbling apartment in Central Falls, Rhode Island, to the stage in New York City and beyond. This is the path I took to finding my purpose, but also my voice in a world that didn't always see me. As I wrote Finding Me, my eyes were open to the truth of how our stories are often not given close examination. We are forced to reinvent them to fit into a crazy competitive judgmental world. So I wrote this for anyone running through life untethered, desperate and clawing their way through murky memories, trying to get to some form of self-love. For anyone who needs reminding that a life worth living can only be born from radical honesty,

and the courage to shed facades and be you. Finding me is my deep reflection, a promise, and a love letter of sorts to self. My hope is that my story will inspire you to light up your own life with creative expression and rediscover who you were before the world put a label on you. I don't think I even read that before I listened because I didn't realize that it was going to sound like she truly wrote the name.

It's wild. the um she came from like such intense poverty poverty i don't know why i said it that way but also throughout the book she talks about the one-two punch of being black and impoverished like that's a running theme like she had to get past she had to claw her way past both of those and it's it's so inspirational her voice is fantastic but also like like she worked so so hard to be where she is. And I just, it was so inspiring and heartbreaking and everything. And she just stands up for, like if you see clips of her, like she stands up for what's

right in regards to equal pay, how she's really had to fight. And like what types of roles women of color will be offered or get or how they're taught to act. Yes. It's so fascinating. And it's very emotional. And something that I thought about when you just brought this up, I follow this account. It's underscore Britt underscore lit.

Her name is Brittany Bell. And she does a lot of reviews about memoirs and nonfiction books. And it was a really interesting, like she loved this book. But following her account has made me realize, like, some people don't review memoirs critically. And she's kind of put it on my radar that, like, there are some memoirs that are, let's stand out because they really do have those themes and they tie them together like parts of her childhood are revisited so often in her adulthood that really makes this memoir stand out yes and it really like it resonated with me yeah it's she and to the point that she said like some of us

want to revise our histories kind of when we tell our stories that was like she really did share some like very vulnerable and like heartbreaking and like kind of shameful i mean she talks about how much shame she had to overcome and so that's another thing like even that i just resonated with is broadly we all know we have these things that like make us ashamed of things and she just kept like fighting past that she just kept fighting past that um until she got to where she is now which is like very different than where she started. Yeah, yeah. She brings up the little girl so often.

Yeah, I know. So Segway, speaking of one book that you got me to really pick up, even though I had been on my radar for a long time, that I really loved on audio was, is the Lion Women of Tehran. Yes. Which, I mean, Tehran is relevant. I was just thinking about that. I thought this book was so good.

But the narrators, especially the reader for Ellie, her voice is gorgeous. And so, and by the way, this cover is so pretty. It's so beautiful. I just took it to my sister-in-law this weekend. That's what I was like, wow, this is timely. Yeah. Yeah. I was telling my husband about AJ about it too.

Yeah. An evocative read in a powerful, I don't know why I always, okay, no, good reads, can you separate? Like the marketing part from the actual synopsis part. Yeah. Okay. In 1950s, Tehran, seven-year-old Ellie lives in grand comfort until the untimely death of her father, forcing Ellie and her mother to move to a tiny home downtown. Lonely and bearing the brunt of her mother's endless grievances,

Ellie dreams for a friend to alleviate her isolation. Luckily on the first day of school, she meets Hama, a kind girl with brave and irrepressible spirit. Together, the two girls play games, learn to cook in the stone kitchen of Hama's warm home, wander through the colorful stalls of the Grand Bazaar, and share their ambitions of becoming lion women. But their happiness is disrupted when Ellie and her mother are afforded the opportunity to return to their previous bourgeois life. Now a popular student, at the best girls high school in Iran, Ellie's memories of Hama begin to fade. Years later, however, her sudden reappearance in Ellie's privileged world alters the course of both of their

lives. Together, the two women come of age and pursue their own goals for meaningful futures. But as the political turmoil in Iran builds to a breaking point, one earth-shattering betrayal will have enormous consequences. It does. Oh, gosh. Boy does it. God, you know I love a good female friendship story. story and this one is really, really wonderful and stands the test of time and so many challenges. And like growing up with families that have different political ideals, I love that they met when they were kids because they didn't fully understand that. And I think that was so awesome.

Yes. But even like questions of betrayal and like so many things. I, they overcome so much. Yeah. It's a really powerful story. very emotional and I loved both of them and it when I was talking to Marjan about it um it's a really fun interview for anyone who has read it um it was cool talking to her because like I I experienced like at first I was like oh I am so like Homa like I would be like so fiery

and outspoken and whatever but then you sent time with Ellie and you're like oh no There are times I act because of self-preservation. Mm-hmm. And so they're, like, very different women that continue to have a complex relationship as they grow up. But I saw myself in both of them. And I thought that was really cool. And she was like, I kind of wanted it to be that way. So we had a cool conversation about that part if anyone wants to listen.

Yeah, I need to go back and listen to that. What a happy accident that was for you. It's such a crazy story. The short version, if this is, like, the first time you're hearing about it, is that I went to interview. I can't remember who it was supposed to be. I went to interview someone and Marjanon popped up and I was like, hi, I haven't read your book.

I read the synopsis and I could try to interview you. And she was like, no, I really like your podcast. Her publicist just got us mixed up. So she had listened and like wanted to do it. So then I was like, all right, well, let's schedule for the future. I'll read your book. And it was, I was so glad. It is. It was such a happy accident.

And interestingly enough, did you read, have you read, have you heard the stationary shop? I don't think so. I've heard it's really good. I was on Libro FM and right now they have a buy one, get one free. And the stationary shop is one of the choices. So I have debated doing that since I loved lying women of Toronto so much. Oh, it's the same narrator, I believe, the one I really liked. That's why I was wondering when you said that.

So I think there's just one. I might just get that. The other one that I was thinking about, the berry pickers is one of them. And Skyfull of elephants is one of them. So I don't know. There are lots that I'm debating from Libro FM right now. How could you go? I know.

You're so proud. I know. So once I, what was it? Once I realized I liked memoirs, because I listen to matriarch by Tina. Miss Tina Knowles. So good. I've already talked about it a couple of times on the podcast, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

But if you want to hear about the woman who, like, has, like, parents in, like, segregated South, that's her childhood. Then there's her, and her daughter is Beyonce. Like, you want to talk about range. I just, like, it reminded me so much that so many things can change in your life. Yeah. That you, like, don't even realize. Wow.

That's kind of one of the takeaways from that. But I started. be like, oh, I really love, I loved listening to her memoir and like her voice and whatever. So that's what it got me to Viola Davis is. And then I knew that I had seen Hannah Berner, I'd seen Hannah Burner do content with Zarnagard, but I had also seen Zarnagard on TikTok for like the last year. And I remembered seeing that she did like some press with Hannah Berner because she had a memoir come out. And I was like, oh, I'm a memoir girly now. So I bet that will be good. I cried. multiple times listening to this one.

Tyler came back from, I almost spelled it out, but I actually don't have dogs behind me. Tyler came back from a walk. And I was just like eating like, I was like crying into my protein and pea pasta. And he's like, what happened? And I'm like, her memoir is very powerful,

but she is also so incredibly funny. Like if you're a comedy fan, you need to go follow her to like Instagram and TikTok just because she's so, funny. But here is the synopsis. It's kind of long. And I'm also dealing with the I'm just, I'm just going to read it. Award winning comedian Zarnagard turns her astonishing life story into a hilarious memoir from narrowly escaping and arranged marriage in India to carving her own path in America and launching a dazzling second act midlife. Growing up in India,

everyone called Zarna so American because she read the newspaper, had deep thoughts, and talked back to anyone over the age of 30. When Zarnas dad tried to marry her off at age 14, Zarner fled the whole subcontinent for the glittering paradise of Akron, Ohio. Midwest represent here, where she got to become American for real. On Zarner's very American quest to find herself and her calling, she threw herself wholeheartedly into roles like, dog bite lawyer crazy perfectionist stay-at-home mom indian matchmaker prize-winning screenwriter and more it wasn't until a dare led her to a stand-up comedy open mic that zarna finally found her spiritual her spiritual getting paid cold hard cash for her big fat mouth i think there's something wrong with that sentence but that's what it said um and as zarna discovered after surviving the brutal streets of

mumbai the cut-throat world of stand-up comedy was nothing this american woman is an exhumed of fighting for your right to determine your own destiny and triumphing beyond what you ever dream is possible. And as Zarna always reminds you, if Zarna can do it, you can too. She is so funny. On social media, but also in this memoir, she just, she cracks me up so much. I have so many notes from this one. Like, I was just taking so many notes. But like this one, kind of similarly. Like her, she's,

her mom passed suddenly, kind of suddenly, when she was 14 and she was the, I think she was the youngest youngest child. Yeah. And her dad looked at her and said he was tired of taking care of kids and that he was

going to marry her off because he just didn't want to do it anymore. He's tired of it. Okay. So she was homeless in Mumbai for, for like from like 14 to 16 just trying to get a green card approved trying to get to Akron where her sister had moved oh her sister had had an arranged marriage but her husband moved to Akron oh and so she's just like trying to get to her sister and get away and was like homeless for like two years at that age but she was like I am not doing an arranged marriage I'm not

doing it and I just like the amount of courage yeah at 14 to be like, no, that's not for me. And to be like, no, I'm just not even going to, I'm not going to even let you do that. And to like make her way to where her career is now. So inspiring. She's amazing. I love her. Yeah. I just love her. It's amazing when, um, it's so perfect when people read their own memoirs. Mm-hmm. Um, I think it just makes a world of difference. Yeah, because that was the other thing like, uh, like when she talks about her mom passing in the and there are a couple of places later where she's crying and they leave it in while she's reading it. And that's where, that was where, like, Tyler walked in and I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Sheesh. It was so heavy and so powerful. Like, even it was, like, happy-ish. Yeah. Just lots of feeling tears, the way that she wrapped it up in the final chapter. I don't want to spoil it. But it was so, it was, like, good for her memoir version. Yeah.

Yeah. Where it's not revenge, but it's like she overcame a lot. lot of things and I was just crying with her. So my gosh. Yeah. She's fantastic. Oh, and on that note, if you have not read or listened to, I really like, is it Mama Love? The one about Mama Love. That's good on, that's a good memoir as well. And she reads it and her voice is really good. I need to do that one. She's a ghost writer. That's so good. I need to get that on my list. She is so funny. I think you'll love it. I would recommend just so many different people.

I think that that's why memoirs are so great for people getting into audiobooks because so many of them are read that way. It kind of feels like a long podcast of someone like telling you stories about their life. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Totally. I don't know how to segue that. That's okay.

Another audiobook. Another audiobook. Well, one of my absolute, absolute favorite narrators, her name is January Levoy. She read books like Listen. for the lie, good dirt, the new one by Charmaine Wilkerson. I know a book that you liked a lot. What is it called? It had to be you.

Oh, it had to be you. No Spies thriller one. Yep, I listened to that one. And she also, I was trying to pick, I love Kirsten Miller's books. Oh, yeah. I also love Marshall Carp's book. So, okay, we had a device overheat. So I was just talking about my obsession with January Levoy and listing a few of the books that she's read for, including all of Kirsten Miller's, I really especially love Lula Dean's Little Library of Ban Books.

But one of my favorite ones that she recently did was Marshall Carpstone, don't tell me how to die, which we've talked about a lot. But just in case you haven't read it yet. I have one thing to do before I die, and time is running out. I've had it all a fantastic husband, two great kids, an exciting career, and then at the age of 43, I found out I would be dead before my next birthday. My mother also died at 43. I was 17, and she warned me that women would flock to my suddenly single father like stray cats to overturn milk truck. And they did.

And one absolutely evil woman practically destroyed his life, mine, and my sisters. I'm not letting that happen to my family. I have three months, and I plan to spend every waking minute searching for the perfect woman to take my place as Alex's wife and mother to Kevin and Katie. You're probably thinking she'll never do it. Did I mention that in high school I was voted most likely to kill someone to get what she wants? One thing I love about January Lavoie is that she can do voices of other people without it being annoying. I love that. Like I think something that when people are reading fiction via audio, how

narrators kind of like change their voice for other characters can really like make or break it for them. Definitely. And I think that January LaVoy is amazing. That's good to know. I was noticing that with, well, with King of Ashes, which we talked about, he has a good job of like doing,

actually having different voices for different characters. And even his women worked for me. I was impressed by that because he's got a deep voice. Yeah. But what was I thinking? Oh, the vanishing half that I'm reading, right, listening to right now, I don't know who the narrator is off of my head. But she similarly is like doing a wide range. Because for anyone who hasn't read it, it's, it's, I don't even know how to describe it.

It has so much to do with so many different parts of America and different races of people and different geographic. So, like, there's, like, a diverse amount of voices to even do. Yeah. And she's doing it very well. Yeah. Did you find her name? Shana Small. Okay.

She is really good. I've been listening. I basically, I was listening to her the whole way here, and I was like, wow. Yeah. She basically goes from, like, talking, like, a black woman from Louisiana to a white woman in L.A. And it doesn't even sound like the same person. Right. a little bit.

So, yeah. And it's amazing when you, like, when you don't really think about it, that's when you know it's going well. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. Interestingly enough, I'm going to hop into nonfiction again.

This is actually the one that really got me going, like, like, basically I saw a girl on girl, which is called how pop culture, which is. which is called um girl on girl how pop culture turned a generation of women against themselves you need go look at the cover too because it was like i saw this cover um in my instagram feed and i'm like that sounds so interesting to me but like i don't know when i'm going to physically read it that was kind of what it was like yep and i had just um done that with uh jesus and john wayne like i was seeing that enough that i was like i'm very interested but i don't know when i'm going to read it So I had just, I was in the middle of Jesus and John Wayne.

Sounds really, I was in the middle of those two. Yeah. When I saw this in my feed and I was like, maybe this will work for me as an audio book as well. And this, once I, I got so into this book. So from Atlantic critic and Pulitzer Prize finalist Sophie Gilbert, a blazing critique of how early aughts pop culture turned women and girls against each other and themselves with disastrous consequences. When did feminism lose its way? This question feels increasingly urgent in a moment of reactionary, cultural, and legislative backlash when widespread uncertainty about the movement's power,

focus, and currency threatens decades of progress. Now it's restating all of her stuff. Sophie provides one, no, she doesn't. She doesn't provide one. Does she provide one answer? Okay, I thought there were more, but hold on. I'll just read what it says here. So if you provides one answer, identifying an inflection point in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when the energy of third wave and riot girl feminism collapsed into a regressive period of hyper-objectification, sexualization, and infantilization. Gilbert minds the darker side of nostalgia, training her keen, analytic eye on the most revealing cultural objects of the era across music, film, television, fashion, tabloid journalism, and more.

And what she recounts is harrowing from the unattainable aesthetic of Victoria's Secret ads and explicit music videos to a burgeoning internet culture, internet culture vicious towards women. I think that's wrong, but whatever, women in the spotlight and damaging for those who weren't. Gilbert tracks many of the periods dominant themes back to the explosion of internet porn, tracing its widespread influence as it began to pervade our collective consciousness. She paints a devastating picture of an era when a distinctly American confluence of excess materialism and power worship collided with the culture's reactionary, puritanical, and chauvinistic currents.

Amid a collective reconsideration of the way women are treated in public, girl-on-girl, is a blistering indictment of the matrix of misogyny that undergirded the cultural production of the early 21st century and how it continues to shape our world today. That was a lot. That's a lot. Fascinating, though. So I understand what they're saying. She does provide kind of like the one inflection point, which was like porn happening at the same time as like late 90s, we started to get cameras that you could take with you. And that was the beginning of the end of the privacy era. And it was like everything changed there.

And so that is kind of like the main point. and that was super fascinating to me, but she covers so many different angles. So I would also argue she's not giving you like one reason. The other thing is it was pretty impressive. It's even intersectional. It's not just white women's experience. She includes like a variety of it. And it was eye-opening.

It was reminding me of how like I started to learn about my internalized misogyny when I was in college and finally like out of. a system that worked within misogyny, basically, once I was finally not stuck in that. I remember being like, oh, like being like, I'm a girl who watches sports, like, and thinking you were better because of it. Still internalized misogyny, and be like, oh, I'm so much better than other girls. It's also pick me energy, but yeah, anyway, it made me rethink, just think about a lot of things. And then she really dives into music and even how, like, the way that rap started to

really, what's the word I'm looking for? Not materialized. What is it when you objectify? Objectify, thank you. Objectify women. And then culturally it became a trick, kind of like a thing that we're like, I should feel empowered by someone talking about me that way. And you're like, maybe not, maybe not.

Right. It's kind of coming around. And I remember in college being like, oh, yeah, it would be, you're confident if someone's objectifying you. And you're like, are you though? So it just makes you think about stuff. Yeah. Especially now that we're in our, like you enter a different era when I think you're like

approaching like your later 20s into your 30s and beyond where it's just like it doesn't matter as much. Hopefully. Not everybody gets there, but you hope, right? I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

It's so good. I love it. That sounds really good. Oh my gosh. I have no segue for that. But I love it. Yeah, it was really good. So one thing with, I guess,

audiobooks that has shifted for me in general was at first I wasn't sure how well accents would work for me, especially as I was starting to speed up my books. But I first listened to one of Sally Hepworth's books, the Darling Girls, I got it from NetGalley, and I crushed that. And she's from Australia, the narrator was Australian or had an Australian accent.

I have been tricked. Some of them are so good that I did not know. They were not whatever accent they're reading. Wow. But one of my favorites is Barry Khrinick. And she's actually American, but she reads most of Sally Hepworth's books. So I had no idea she was American. One of my favorites.

And I've learned that I only really want to listen to her book. because I don't think I've ever read one with my eyeballs actually now. And I really love Australian accents. I usually will listen to those now. So that has shifted over time. I think that's something that's also like a learned practiced thing. So for the good sister, which I think I love the most because of the character, Fern. She's absolutely one of my favorites.

Let's see. There's only been one time that Rose, no. Is that really how it starts? Maybe. Okay. There's only been one time. that Rose couldn't help, couldn't stop me from doing the wrong thing, and that was a mistake that will haunt me for the rest of my life. Fern Castle works in her local library. She has dinner with her

twin sister Rose three nights a week, and she avoids crowds, bright lights, and loud noises as much as possible. Fern has a carefully structured life and disrupting her routine can be dangerous. When Rose discovers that she cannot get pregnant, Fern sees her chance to pay her sister back for everything Rose has done for her. Fern can have a baby for Rose. She just needs to find a father. Simple. Fern's mission will shake the foundations of the life she has carefully built for herself and stir up dark secrets from the past in this quirky, rich, and shocking story of what families keep hidden. Wow, what a synopsis. That's a really good one. Yeah, it doesn't give anything away, but it says enough.

The gait or the gist, like the having a baby for your sister. It is wild. Yeah. And there's even, there's a diary involved, isn't there? I think there's a diary involved, if you like that. Yep, yep. It's kind of like mixed. No, that is mixed media.

It doesn't have to be other media. Yeah, that one's really good. I need to listen to Darling Gross is what I need to do now that I'm listening to fiction. Yeah, and I now when I see, there are certain narrators now that when I see that they narrate the book, that'll like make the decision so easy for me. Yeah. As to which format I'll, I'll do. Yeah, that's awesome. It's cool.

I need to. I definitely need to. Well, I'm back to nonfiction again, but I had a friend tell me that if I liked girl on girl, I would probably like Q the Sun, the invention of reality TV. Oh, I bet. By Emily Nussbaum. It was so fascinating, too. I have so many notes from this one.

Q the Sun explores the morally charged, funny, and sometimes tragic consequences. of the hunt for something real inside something fake. Whoever wrote that sentence deserves an award. I could probably stop it there. Nussbaum Traces four paths of reality innovation. Game shows, prank shows, soap operas, and clip shows. They united in the survivor format, sparking a tumultuous Hollywood Gold Rush.

Along the way, we meet tricksters and innovators from the icy Allen Funt to the shambolic Chuck Berris, cops, O'Tour, John Langley, Bachelor Mastermind Mike Fleece, and John Murray, the visionary behind the real world, along with dozens of crew members and ordinary people whose lives became fodder for the reality revolution. We learn about the tools of the trade, like Candid Camera's brilliant reveal, and the notorious Frankenbite, a deceptive editor's best friend, and the moral outrage that reality shows provoked. But Hugh the Sun also celebrates what made the genre so powerful, a jolt of authentic emotion. Through broad-ranging reporting, thus bomb examines seven tumultuous decades.

Like, the fath been going on that long. Exposing the celebrity boom, reality TV as a strike breaker, the queer roots of Bravo, and the dark truth behind The Apprentice. A shrewd observer who cares about television, she is the ideal voice for the first substantive cultural history of the genre that has for better or worse made america what it is today yeah um and yes can i just say that when i was getting to the end of this book because the apprentice is near the end of it you're like oh no this truly is a book that tells you about how we got to where we are today because the apprentice is our president so it's like it's wild

how much context it gives to all kinds of stuff wow it's really good. I have lots of notes about that one too. There's so many notes. I don't know what I'm going to do with them. Oh my gosh. You know, that just brings up such an interesting point is that the other day I was about like I started a nonfiction, which was about to be amazing. I just like wasn't in the mood for it. And I think that there are things like nonfiction books like what you've talked about today that are so different than what I would like initially think of, of like learning about a person, spending so much time or like a memoir that like, they're amazing. But maybe you're not always like looking for that.

And like this is just such a different brand of nonfiction that I wouldn't have even thought of. It is. I'm liking the, I think it's kind of like sociological nonfiction. It kind of is what's interesting to me as well. Like stuff that's like, hey, here's a lot of stuff that happened over a bunch of years and like why it's relevant to society. Right. And you don't even realize it's happening. And then it's like, wow, we've come so far. Yeah. Things have like really blown up. It reminds me of that. Do you ever listen to that podcast? I don't even know if it's on anymore called like stuff you should know.

I do remember for a little bit listening to it. It kind of reminds me of that where like you just have a topic and it like you're like, wow, I didn't even realize how that affected so much. It's, you really do hear it because it's like I'm not going to I'm not going to get totally into Fox News. but like as a news network it like got its version of reality TV that got really popular was like airing stuff that wasn't wasn't real and kind of pretending though like it was real and I'm like even the fact that that was a foundation for Fox News I just I won't get too far into it but I feel like that we have seen the reverberations of that with where Fox News is now wild what I'm saying wild so oh my gosh just like gives you goosebumps to see like, you know, on the surface, you can really just say like, oh, yeah, it's just been a thing we like watching.

But we're like, no, America elected a reality TV star. So, yeah, it's kind of relevant. This is good at business. Yes. So good at it. Speaking of bonkers. Nice. So is this our last one?

Or do we have one more? I think we can do one more. if you want to. So the next narrator I wanted to highlight, I first heard her read in Grady Hendrix's, I never remember the whole name, the Southern Book, the Southern Book Club's. Oh, the Vampire? Yes, Guide to Slaying Vampires or something like that. Whatever that is.

Which I loved that audio book more I think than I would have ever loved the book because of Bonnie Turpin. reading it. And so, but a book that I think I would love for people to read and review, because this was one that I looked up the ending afterwards because I knew it would be incredibly divisive. It's called, allegedly, it's Tiffany D. Jackson's, who most people know her from the weight of blood. This, I believe, was her debut. Mary B. Addison killed a baby, allegedly. She didn't say much in that first interview with detectives and the media filled in the only blanks that mattered. A white baby had died while under the care of a church-going black woman and her nine-year-old daughter. The public convicted Mary and the jury made it official. But did she do it? She wouldn't say.

Mary survived six years in baby jail before being dumped in a group home. The house wasn't really home. No place where you fear for your life can be considered home. Home is Ted, who she meets on assignment at a nursing home. There wasn't a point to setting the record straight before, but now she's got Ted and their unborn child to think about. When the state threatens to take her baby, Mary must find the voice to fight her past. And her fate lies in the hands of the one person she distrusts the most, her mama. No one knows the real mama, but who really knows the real Mary?

I need to listen to this one. That's insane. I've looked at reviews since you mentioned. how divisive it is and just any time I see it. Like, everyone has feelings. Yeah. And I don't want to look at spoilers, but I do want to, I would think, I'm just realizing how many things I can probably listen to now.

Yeah. I would say, Fannie Turpin has a very unique voice. It's kind of raspy. She does, she shifts her voice really, really well between characters. And like the fact that Tiffany D. Jackson got her for a. debut is like I love I always kind of wonder like when someone has a debut who are your options right like when I meet authors I ask them a lot about their um audio experience and some of them aren't very involved at all and some of them are and so I just thought like what a great get for your debut

seriously um yeah that one is a wild ending I was listening to in the shower and I was like what Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I know. Sometimes I think of like how many hours I've listened in the shower. I know. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I did realize we may want to go in, though.

Do you think we should go in? That's what just dawned on me. So I think, sorry, guys. Actually, Steph was right. She knew it was our last one. So we're going to go hang out with Julie Clark and Mary Kubica. Oh, and also I did look it up. One of the things I was doing on my phone while we were talking.

Julie Clark is from L.A. Julie Clark's from L.A. But Mary Kubica is from Chicago. Nice. So we're going to go get some sign books. Yes. We're going to get that bomb-looking ghostwriter edges. So the edges of that new book are insane.

And for anyone who's watching, I did bring this. We don't know if Mary's going to be signing them as well, but this special edition might have to buy it. Now I'm going to have this special edition and the ghost writer. So I know. Yeah. Capitalism at its best, special edition books. They really know how to make us spend money.

Yeah, they do.