Bookwild - Audrey Egner @chaptersandconverse Shares Some of Her Favorite Thrillers

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

This week, Audrey Egener aka @chaptersandconverse shares some of her favorite thrillers, and we talk about our favorite parts of Bookstagram and BookTube!Books We Talked AboutJar of HeartsFinal GirlsThe Kind Worth KillingTh1rt3enRalph’s PartyAnd Then There Were NoneThe Secret History Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week we're switching it up a little bit, and I am super excited to have Audrey Egnor or chapter and converse on Instagram and YouTube with us this week. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so excited. This is so cool. I'm very happy to be able to do it. Yeah. I think it's kind of cool.

I feel like Instagram. Yes. That was exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really cool how many, just how many relationships you like can create on Bookstagram that like obviously because it's the internet, it can be people that like don't

live physically near you. So I feel like there are all these people I've had like DM conversations with, but I haven't like spoken to them one on one like this. I think it's so fun to do that. I know. Yeah. I had no idea when I first started. And I remember like watching BookTube first at the beginning.

And there are all these people who were like, oh, I've made all these. these friends do this and I was like that's crazy and then all these years later I'm like I've made a bunch of friends through this this is so cool yeah it's so fun and then like you kind of start to know like who who like reviews books similarly to you or whatever and then you just like always have a place to go when you're looking for something to read next I know which is the blessing and the curse of all of this right I told you like I watched your your spring ones and I was like a whole bunch of books I didn't have. There goes the list. Yes. Yes. After you said 22, I pulled up your YouTube video and started watching too. And I was like, oh my gosh, there are more on here.

We just have the moral of like this week is there are a lot of thrillers to read this spring. But I love it. I'm excited for it. I know. I'm not mad about it. Somebody's got to fill the Ashley Winstead void for us. Because a year without an Ashley Winston, I know. When she said that, I was like, all right. All right. All right. I know. We were so spoiled for like three years in a row. I know. She's so amazing. I'm sure it'll be worth the way, too. But yes, thankfully, there are just like so many to fill the time for now. So you have, you have your bookstagram and you are on BookTube as well. Kind of the same title, chapter, and converse. So when did you kind of like start those and like what have you like, what? Have you like,

What has your journey been with them and kind of what's been your favorite parts of it? I started in 2018 and kind of like not even on purpose. So I had been watching, so I'm a writer, which I know you know, aspiring to be published. And I live for an author interview, especially when it comes to like inspiration and craft. So I was watching author interviews on YouTube and all of a sudden all these book reviews and everything started to get recommended. So I started to watch it. And that's how I figured out. that Book Tube was a thing.

And then, I don't know, it was probably like a couple months. And I kind of thought, like, I want to talk to people about books. Like my in-person inner circle, like occasionally reads a book, but I didn't have anyone to talk to. So I started to comment on people's videos and engage that way. And then I eventually was like, I'm going to try this. Not that I thought, I was like, it looks easy, but I know it's not easy, but let me just try this. And it couldn't have been like further out of my comfort zone to do. do it. Yeah. But I just started to do it and it was so bad at the beginning. And all those videos

are still up there. But I mean like they are they're comical. Like it's dark and I'm whispering and it's like really, really weird. But it's just and it took me probably like a whole day to film and edit one video like eight hours kind of a thing. Just slow as could be. So yeah, I just kind of started doing it and just kept doing it and agree. and started to engage with more people and it was fun. So that like, and I feel like my bookstagram probably started around the same time because I wanted, I had a personal one that I never really used. So just created that as a companion.

Yeah. Yeah, that's really makes sense. It is like the stuff you make at the beginning, like, it's good because you started and you got it out there. But then every now and then you're like, you're like, you're two years away from something. And you're like, oh, that's what I was doing. Cool. like it's so good as you started. Exactly. I know. And even like talking about books and I definitely

like when I look back at it and can see how my personality is so much quieter. So weirdly, like as a super introvert, this has helped me become more extroverted and like more confident and like more not that I was not myself, but like much less self-conscious about things. Because obviously like when you're editing yourself, I mean, you're staring at yourself all day. I figured out every weird tick and facial expression that I have. And it's just like, nice. My hands are all over the place. Yes, I'm a big hands person.

I'm a huge hands person. Yes. Yeah, you have to get like, someone was just asking me about that. They're like, so you edit yourself. And I was like, for someone who like generally is pretty self-critical, you have to like get over it pretty quickly is what I was at least telling her when you're editing yourself. Because it's like sometimes in like,

interviews, it's also, it's not like I can go back and change it anyway. So like for me, it was like at first it was weird. And then you're just kind of like, well, this is what I'm doing. And like, I'm not going to just keep retrying to do things over and over and over and over again. So like eventually it gets a little bit easier for anyone who's thinking about doing it. But it is weird at first. You start to let you're like, oh, this is what people are staring at when I talk to them and get excited. I know. And I totally refilmed a few videos at the beginning. And then, yeah, same. I just got to the point where it was like, I don't have that kind of time, put it out there.

It's fine. Like, it's about the conversation. So as long as there was nothing glaringly, like, fire trucks or things in the background. Right. I just, like, put them all up there. Dogs. Yeah. I know every once in a while there's, like, something that happens.

And you're kind of like, it's fine. I'm just going to leave it. Yeah. Uh-huh. I can't be about. Yeah, I've had the same thing. You were talking about, yes. The introverted stuff.

too though that's like it's been kind of cool because I feel like a lot of the people I still talk to whether it's authors or just like other readers like a lot of us are introverts in general but I've also like because I've definitely read books on introversion because I'm that kind of an introvert and they often talk about how like introverts are like it's kind of like the small talk is what's difficult or like those kind of conversations but that if you get an introvert talking about something that they like really care about like they appear like an extrovert and so that's it's kind of been cool that's like been some of my experience with it is like it's still easier for me to like talk to someone when I know we just have like so many books in common or just like love books and so then all of a sudden

you're having a conversation and people are like you're an introvert and I'm like yeah so it's yeah it's such a good gateway it totally is I know I have this sticker that says introverted but willing to talk about murder she wrote because I can talk about that. all day long yes it's like my favorite show yeah we need shirts like that for some someone needs to make a shirt like that um so you said you're also a writer so i've and obviously you're a reader um have you've been reading like your whole life has that always been a thing for you and what about writing as well I would say lifetime reader for sure. It was always like something encouraged in my house.

We were going to the library, bookstores. There were always books around. I'm the younger of two kids, but I definitely was like happy to be alone introvert. Always with the book. And I think my parents were happy with the fact like she's got a book. She's quiet. Like she's doing her own thing.

So definitely always reading. It definitely ebbed and flowed, you know, where there were times where you weren't reading as much, but yeah, always with the book. And I feel like writing kind of similarly, like whether it was a diary or I was always making up stories, which was my version of like, I'm not lying. I'm just making up a story. I'm just like making up things. But yeah, it was just always sort of like, yeah, writing poems, writing short stories, kind of funny stuff like that. So that ebbed and flowed also and kind of definitely ignored it for years and one of the things that I love about Ashley Winstead and it was like one of the first

interviews I heard her talk about where she had said how like she couldn't get into that master's program and got or like the graduate school you know they were kind of like she took it as like you're not good enough and she just shut down for 10 years I a thousand percent had a diff like a similar experience where like writing got rejected tried to send its agents and I was like I'm not good enough I'm not doing this anymore so took time off I know it's an I know you need to be more thick skin about it and everything. I mean, it's not going to come naturally to be like, no, I believe in myself when you're like getting rejections. It's tough.

I know. And I originally went to school for, well, I went to school for journalism. So I kind of always had a vision of magazine writing, but always wanted to like always gravitating towards fiction. Like I didn't want to be a news reporter. Right. Like the facts were not fun. Fiction's more fun. So.

No, fiction more fun. It's always been in there. Yeah, for sure. That's still cool. Always been in there. Still working on it. Yeah. That's kind of cool, though, because I'm trying.

I don't want to say I'm trying to write a manuscript because I am technically. But I'm one of my main characters. I was just working on it is a journalist. And I was just starting to have questions because I'm not a journalist about like the details of it. So I might have to throw you some questions every now and then so that I don't. It sounds like a goof. writing about a journalist. I know.

The Google search is trying to find out facts for things. I was Googling some weird stuff this weekend. But even like I was trying to Google liquor laws in North Carolina. Part of my book is set years ago. Like when were things a lot? Like you just, you start looking for weird stuff. So right.

I'm in the Sisters and Crime group. And a lot of times people will just like pop a question in the chat. Like does anyone know how to sail? Does anyone, anyone ever been to Vermont to try and get that authenticity? So that's like one of the beauties of these connections too. Yeah. I hadn't even thought of that.

That's really cool. So I did ask, I asked you the hardest question maybe to ever ask a reader. And I wanted to see if you could find really any number of books that described. You said three. And I was like, three. I know, I said three. And then you're like, what about seven? I was like, that's fine too.

In some ways, I, like, I wasn't even thinking of how it would be easier to do seven than to do three. I was trying to like, oh, three is like palatable. And then I was like, no, actually, that's like way harder to do. So however many you have. Yeah. And there's more than three next to me. But I'm not going to pull all of them. I know.

And I feel like, I definitely feel like I'm betraying some of my favorite people. But I was also trying to come at this from like, like what describes me as a reader, as you said. So I'm like looking at the pile. And of course, because I'm like a booktuber, I have visuals. So for anyone who maybe is watching this on YouTube, but anyone's not watching us, I'm going to talk about them. Yeah. Okay. Do you want me to just jump in or? Yeah. Go for it. Just pick one and kind of tell us what it is you love about it. Okay. So the first, and these are in no particular order. I feel like I need to make 10,000 excuses for things. I know. So the first book I picked was Jar of Hearts by Jennifer Hillier. So she was one of those authors. And actually the next person is also going to be from this. So the first thriller fest I went to, I had never heard. I thought I was like so well versed on so many authors. I was watching a thriller panel. And she was on it talking about this book. And I was like, who was this woman and what is this book she's talking about? So like immediately went home and got it. And I don't know when on my channel I started coining this term that I like, books about dark and messed up people doing dark and messed up things. And this book is like all of that.

So like, I'm not going to spoil anything for anyone, but it's about this girl Gio who I want to say she's like 30 years old and she winds up getting arrested for a connection to a murder that happened when she was a teenager of her best friend. And I was like so blown away by how totally dark this went. This book made me super uncomfortable, totally unexpected. But like so well written. So it's, it's like one of those blends of like such a page turning thriller, but also like such gorgeous writing and characters you're totally rooting for,

morally gray, like the whole nine yards. I was completely obsessed. I'm obsessed with that cover. I have somehow not seen that cover. Right. That is so pretty. This is one of the UK covers. I have a very toxic habit of buying multiples of books.

Yes. So. So does here. I maybe have two of them. these. I have the US one and I have this one. I love that one. Yeah, I'm such a hoarder. Um, but I was like, like, I felt like I'd never read anything like this before. And I don't know if this was maybe like 2018-ish, I think it was. Probably. Yeah. I think like when I read it, I was stunned. And then like as a writer, I was completely blown away because it definitely felt

like she put it all out on the page and the Thriller Fest the next year I wound up bringing my copy of it like the other one and like finding her and being completely like red-faced and stuttery and being like oh my God I love your bug I'm such a huge fan and da-da-da-da-da. And I was telling her like it just felt like you went all in and she was like this was like my I may never write another book again and I'm going to write the book I want to write and basically like leave nothing on the table and put it all in. there and I was just like you're my hero so yeah like as a reader and a writer this is like my hero book yeah for sure that is so cool but that was like how to you approached it because it is it's so

it's so much different than like any other thriller I've ever read even though it has some of the tropes yep yeah and I like I feel like any time and there's like a couple books here I feel like when you can take something that's familiar and do something totally different with it or completely just like send me down a path I didn't even see coming is one of my favorite things that an author does. And so my second book who was on that exact same panel was Riley Sager. So I have final girls. Nice. So this was this was the first of his books that I've read and it's still my favorite. It's like I've read them all, but this one is still, I don't know if it's just like sentimental reasons, but I just absolutely love it. And like I've read both these twice. I'm like such a huge

re-reader. And like same thing. He's talking about this book and like horror movies and his love horror movies and scream and all this. And I was like, who is this man and what is this book? I was just like, what rock am I living under that I don't know any of these people are? So I feel like it was just like such a similar experience. You were like it was so bingeable. It totally surprised me. It was and I was reading dark books already, but it was like a different kind of darkness. I feel like in these books, if that makes sense. And I just like, Like I love dual timelines. I love just sort of questionable characters.

Like again, like that morally gray, not quite sure who to trust. And I just loved it. I just absolutely loved it. Me too. I know. I'm such a huge fan of his. Such a huge fan of us. Okay.

Let me go a little non. New ones growing up here too. I know. And it got a starred review on Publishers Weekly. Did you see that? I just saw that. I just saw that. Yeah, that's exciting. I know. The cover looks so cool, too. I know. This I also feel like it's like the year of the cover. There's so many gorgeous covers coming out this year. I know. And I'm like trying to decide. I was looking at a talent for murder, the new Peter Swanson book. And I was like comparing the UK and the US cover. And I don't know which one to get. Because I'm such a cover buyer. So I'm like on the fence with which one to get. These are the things we stress about.

I know. And I was waiting for the UK cover to get released before I pre-ordered it because I didn't want to make a mistake. So I still can't decide. But so I'll talk about him. So I have the Kind Worth Gilling, which is like one of the biggest books that I recommend. And you were just talking about this. I'm seeing why we have so many books in common. I know.

So like the new Steve Kavanaugh book. So that Strangers on a train vibe? Yes. Which is like one of my favorite. Yeah. It's so good. I just finished it a couple weeks ago. That was why.

Like when you were saying like taking a unique take on something that like already exists, I almost brought it up when you were talking about Jennifer Hillier, because that one is such a good example of like taking a trope and then actually making it completely unique. So good. And so that's called kill for me, kill for you for anyone who doesn't know. Sorry. I know. I just realized I didn't say it.

And even with that. So like this is man and woman meet in an airport in London. Their plane is delayed. They have a couple cocktails. They start exchanging some secrets. And he basically says, like, my wife is having an affair and I want a killer. And Lily is like, you should do that. And like, I can help you.

And like, that's the first chapter of the book. So I'm a sucker for that trope. And then I went to school in Boston and I lived there for a while. So anything Boston or Boston adjacent completely, is just like catnip for me. I totally want to read it. So they are in and around Boston in this book. And I feel like it's the same thing where I'm like totally surprised me way darker than I thought.

Didn't see like thought I knew where it was going. Just had no clue. Yeah. That was one that I read like when like as I was basically like I was in college. So I was probably like 20 years old. So or 20 or 21. So it was one of those where like I hadn't realized. like my adult reading habits yet i guess is the best way to say it or like totally discovered how

much i was going to love thrillers and i remember i read that one either right before or right after gone girl and so like having those two reading experiences to kick it off but i remember getting to the end of that one and being like holy shit how do people like make make plots like or like storylines like convert and like come together by the end and like now it's it's still one of my very favorites but like it was my like entrance into like how fun thrillers can be with the way they like play with timelines and different characters like crisscrossing with each other oh it's the ending is so good i know and just how unexpected and when i was reading kill for me kill for you like things were happening and i was remembering this book and i was like well this is what's

going to happen next and i was like no it's not and then like i was expecting it's like when you watched like a very cliche horror movie where you were like, oh, this is where this thing's going to happen. Yeah. So, yeah, the way that he was able to, Steve Kavanaugh is fantastic. Yeah, that was actually my first of his, so I need to read the more of his.

I don't know how. You haven't read 13? I haven't read that one. I've seen it like everywhere, even on like book on. It's so good. So this was the front cover. So this is 13 by Steve Kavanaugh. And the line on the cover says the serial killer isn't on trial. He's on the jury. And this is, this is like very

creepy. Like this definitely bordered on giving me some nightmares. Yeah. But it was so worth it. It's kind of like that book night watching. I was telling you about by Tracy Sierra, like definitely nightmare inducing. My husband is still gone. Oh, yeah. You got away. And then it's just been sitting there because he's been gone for six days. And I'm like, I can't do it to myself. Don't do it. Don't do it. And this book I didn't know was going to freak me out as much as it did, but it's really good.

And it's, I want to say it's like the fourth or fifth in the Eddie Flynn series, but I didn't even realize it was part of a series when I read it. You can just read it straight in. I haven't read the books before it. Like it gives you enough background. He's the attorney. So it's fine. That's good. So you don't need to read the whole series.

Yeah. So it's definitely like super dark. and you get the serial killers POV, which makes it, like, extra creepy. Very creepy. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that after, because kill for me, kill for you is like, it's very bloody. Like, it is a very violent one, too.

So. I know. Which I don't always love. Like it's not always. I don't need pages upon pages of it. And think there was. If it's. Yeah.

Done right. Like I can't do body horror. Same. It's not my thing, especially in movies too. Yeah. No. That's a fast D. For me if that's happening.

Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Okay. Let me go to something like way lighter. So the next one I picked was Ralph's Party by Lisa Jewell. So this is her first book. Okay.

Yeah. So this is when she was in. She calls it pop fiction kind of her initial books. And I read this when it first came out. So like just to date myself. completely. But I want to say this came out in like 2000 or 2001. It was 1999. Or 1999. And so this was like the heyday of like Bridget Jones and kind of like the cringe worthy like chicklet tag. So she called it. So it's like super character driven. Yeah. She's the best. So this is like

I feel like a gateway in terms of books that I love, but also turning me into like, an author that I love. So it's about this woman, Jim, who winds up moving into a flat with these two guys who are best friends, Ralph and Smith. And it's about kind of all the people who live in this house and how, like, three separate apartments and how their lives intersect, super character driven, a little bit of romance. But they are, I want to say like late 20s, 30. So it's sort of like that time in your life.

But kind of like, not quite like you're into adulthood. Things are changing. People are getting married. So it was very just sort of like relatable when I read it. And I just loved it. And I reread it two years ago. And I loved it just as much. Like her writing is so fantastic.

And I feel like her books are so character driven. And I just like I love fantastic characters that I can get super excited about and just get invested in. And then she's one of those authors who can in my book like do no wrong and then got into like low mysteries like kind of low key mysteries. And then now was into like. real thriller land. Yeah. So I've heard her or I've heard other people talk about the more, what did you say, pot fiction era, but I haven't read any of them that I haven't strayed completely out of

her mysteries and thrillers. So now I might need to. Perhaps. Yeah, I really, perhaps when I'm avoiding scary books again. Yeah. It's like a good palate cleanser, but not like completely. Like, what's the word? I'm looking for. Like it's still like a very solid book. So it's not like completely like I'm

watching like a pretty little liars episode or something kind of like Clemscher. So it's like a still just really and I feel like you can obviously see her writing in this. But I don't know. That's cool. I just I just love her writing so much. I wonder if she'll ever switch again. Like if she has if she's like basically just since she has before. I wonder if she'll ever want to go in another genre direction. but she did announce, like she's doing a Jessica Jones novel, which is kind of switching it up now that I think about it. So maybe she does just kind of like trying out different genres, which is cool. I know. Any author who can do that, like Ashley Winstead and like Jesse Hsu-Tonto or Geneva Rose, like you can do those switches so easily.

I'm like, I'm still working on my books. I know. I don't think I have anything in me other than a thriller, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, open to the idea of it. Exactly. I know. You never know what's going to come right. I don't think I'm romantic enough to write romance. So. I know. I tried that like in my Lisa Jewel error. That was the one where like submitted it and got asked for stuff and then was told no and like broke, just crushed me. I also wrote like

120,000 word romance. Like stop it. Oh wow. I just didn't know anything better. You just had all the feelings in it. Exactly. Could not have been more autobiographical if I tried. Oh, nice. But with a happier ending. Well, that would make it harder to like shorten it. Yeah. It was way too personal. It's like the one that should have lived under the bed, but I let it out into the world and just shouldn't have. At least you tried.

Yeah, it's true. Tried. Tried. Okay. Next book I have is And then there were none by Agatha Christie. So classic and definitely one of my favorite tropes. Anything. Yeah. with an isolated setting. Like, I'm all in completely. So this is just, I'm working on a slow read through of Agatha Christie books. But this is definitely, I feel like it's my favorite.

It's just like the, like what she did with this book is just unbelievable to me. Right. Have you read it? Like, I read it a long, like, it was a while ago, but yes, I have. What I was just thinking about was like the fact that she wrote it even longer ago, obviously. Yes. So long ago. And that it like it was a completely new idea when she did it, obviously.

And then just how crazy it is to think of how long it's like stuck around with thriller readers. Like how much it works basically. Right. Yeah. Everyone tries to replicate it. But anytime a book is compared to this, I'm like a marketer's dream. I'm like, yep. I saw you posted about what's the one there should have been eight is that what it's called is something with it in it

that was compared to it and I was like oh I need to read that one too I know and like it's they're not on an island but the hunting party by Lucy Foley is another one of my favorite isolated wintery that one's fantastic toxic friendships all that kind of good stuff I just love that Yeah, me too. And there's like so much to think about the whole time that you're reading it because you're suspicious of everyone. I don't know, do you, I don't know if you watches getting attacked by hiccups. I don't know if you watch as much TV. I feel like I even watch less TV now that I read more.

But there was an FX show called Murder at the End of the World. It is so good. And it's like that trope, they're like isolated in the middle of like some frozen tundra. So like I don't know if that's Antarctica or what. But like basically a billionaire has like a kind of like a resort in the middle of a bunch of ice. And so he like calls a certain amount of people together for something. And then someone gets murdered the first night. And then it happens again.

But it like combines all these like because he's a tech billionaire. So it combines these like. kind of speculative fiction aspects about tech and the way it like fits into our lives but is also like this really good like and then we were none type thing happening in the present and then in the past the main character was like hunting down a serial killer so it has like so many of our favorite things in a tv show and i really loved it i don't even know i'm terrible like i'm on season two of succession right now like that's how far behind i'm on life although i did much saltburn thanks to you you put that on my radar i know that's easier to read like or to watch like a

movie because you're like i've got an hour and a half i know and i was curious oh my gosh how could you not be curious about i was like i need to know i know it's when you were talking to gear about it before he had seen it and you were so cryptic and i'm like what like i was like i don't even know what this is and i looked it up and i was like i need to find out i need to find out and then i immediately was like people need to watch this yeah Yeah. I loved it so much. Yeah, I'm historically behind on television, though. Yeah, that was a good.

I get it. Every time I try to, like, I feel like Succession is a show I should like. And when I tried watching it a few years ago, I just, like, wasn't, it wasn't, like, hooking me. So I never made it past a couple episodes. But I know everybody loves it. I feel like it's a mood because I tried to watch it maybe like a year ago and couldn't get into it. And then went back to it, I don't know, maybe like a couple months ago.

And I mean, obviously I'm in the middle of season two, so it's not like I'm watching it every night. So I'm, right. I've heard it gets better. Like, I kind of feel like season one had to set the scene. Right. And then it kind of gets more. Okay. I don't know.

Messed up maybe. So, like, I'm into it. But I'm also, like, right now I'm like, I'm probably going to have to like rewatch the last episode to remember this episode. Like, I'm kind of not sure. Yeah. Yeah. What's happening. But yeah, I haven't been completely religious about it. I'm not great for television. Yeah, I used to watch more. And I can't tell, obviously, like, when the writer's strike was happening, there's been, like, less TV and less movies that came out. So there's kind of that going on, too. But, like, I feel like I used to watch more. But, like, I also have access to more books now. So it's not like I'm, like, ever like, man, what am I going to do? exactly and I feel like when I do turn it on I'm yeah I'm just it's like maybe background noise so it's something I've watched a hundred times like murder she wrote or castle or something like that so

it's just like in the background so I'm not really yeah attention yeah I know I'm the same way sometimes I have to turn stuff on just so my dogs will chill and let me read so that's probably more I have housewives on sometimes while I read oh I'm behind on Vanderpump. That's my, that's my Bravo bad show. It is, have you always watched it or did you? Yes. I've watched it since like the Beverly Hills transition episode to Sheena.

Oh my gosh. Yes, that transition. And they're going to do that. They're doing that with the new show, The Valley. They're going to do the same thing in the middle of VPR. They're going to do like kind of an homage to that transition. And transition to the Valley. I was listening to someone's podcast.

But yeah, it's like, it's definitely. different this season but i think it's just because everything got so shaken up right right as they were about to start recording again so i listened to la la's podcast and she said it's about to get a little bit more like involved so i'm like i'm i'll wait it out okay yeah i'm definitely going to i feel like the first couple episodes have been stuff we already knew since it was so in the public domain so there's like nothing shocking has really happened yet so i'm waiting for the good stuff to yeah to really start rolling out yeah it is i do like it is it is such a fun show the early seasons were so crazy and i'm a stossy so much i know i know it's not that i miss jacks but like i

miss the mess he used to stir he's a good guy with some of these guys yeah exactly he's a perfect He's just a good. He's a personality. Like that's I think I heard Tom Schwartz, I think who was talking about him on a podcast here recently where he was like he's like made for reality TV. So he just is even though he's like crazy. He played the part. Yeah. Yeah. I know. He definitely played the part well. It's so good. It's so good. I know. All right. It's so good. One one book left. You have another share. I'm not going to worry about these other ones. Just last one. So it's the secret history by Donna Tart. Just because I couldn't not talk about dark academia. This was. definitely my dark academia gateway and I still and I feel like it's one of these books that people like either love it or don't and I'm definitely in camp love it obviously because I'm talking about it but the the whole idea that like on page one we know somebody's dead and then we go back to figure out like why and what and all of that and it's I started I actually started rewatching how to get away with murder and who's making me think yeah when I was picking the book

the other day and I pulled this book out. I'm like, this is the how to get away with murder books. I was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start watching that again. The pilot is amazing. I only watched the pilot again. Such a good show. The whole first season is like stunning. Like the other ones are still good, but like it could have been like a mini series one season and it was still amazing. Oh my God. Yeah. So this book definitely like gives me that vibe also. But anything dark academia, anything where like when I read a book, I always mess up the name of the second

Jamie Lynn Hendricks books because I have the UK one. I think it could be anyone. Yes, it could be anyone. And I always have the wrong name, but like that you know on page one that the groom is dead and then you've got the group of friends and then it goes back to lead up to like what happened. Yeah. I loved that book. Like that was my first book of hers that I read and obsessed. Yeah, I loved the way that one was paced. She technically said, which I don't even know if this is the case at this point, because that interview would have been like two years ago.

But she said, because there's something about the ending that could be kind of open to the idea of a sequel. And she said they were like testing the idea and playing with it. And I was like, I could totally do that. Because it's like two of the characters who are being vague for people who haven't read it, who are surviving at the end or whatever you're kind of attached to them for certain reasons so it would be cool if she did it and just kind of like reconfigured it but that was like I feel like the structure you're talking about where like you find out something bad happens and then you like go back in time is like I feel like that was something I with like how to get away with murder

for sure but also the affair that I talk about so much on here never watched that and Every time you talk about it, I'm like, but Joshua Jackson, like, why am I not watching this? He's the number one reason. I've heard such great things about that show. Yeah. And it does that same structure. And I, I like, basically I'm just like thinking back on like getting introduced to that structure and being like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. And just the ways that the ways that like the sometimes the opening scene is even misleading. So it's like you even think you know where it's going. And then. And there's almost like a twist built into the opening scene even. It's just it's so fun.

All the plots that come from that. I know. Yeah, just all the different paths that you go down. And you were saying before like when authors play with time, just all these. And I think like with like these books and books like it that I love, it's like they play with you, but it's like they're not playing unfairly.

Like I have no patience for the book that doesn't play fair. So even though I can't figure, it out when you go back and reread it or see all the clues or it's just like so smart the way that the twists and the characters and all of it's there i'm just yeah blown away absolutely blown away by them i know i know it's so good i love that structure now i want to watch how to get away with murder again it's been like years since i watched it i know i kind of only want to watch it through the who's under the sheet season because that's the season that i was like No. I know. It was getting outrageous. I'm not pleased with how this all went.

I know. I know. Yeah, that one was rough. Yeah. It was such a good, like, start. The next one. Yeah. I watched the whole thing because I can't not. I can't remember right now if I did or not. Yeah, they threw us a bone in the finale, but yeah, for like the long time watchers. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to like keep a concept going and a TV show that would like work in a book because it's just one story versus the pressure to keep making more seasons. Exactly. Yeah. So and even like I do love a sequel. So even like the kind worth killing that he did the kind worth saving. So you get some characters and then even his new book, a talent for murder is going to have somebody from those. Oh nice. In it. So I always like hesitate to say like who or anything like that because I don't want to. Right.

let people know stuff, but yeah, even like authors who Easter eggs, like how Jennifer Hillier, everything's in the same universe. Yes. So she will pull characters or cross-reference things. Like if you read the series, you know and if you don't, you're not missing anything because it still works. It's just there. Even if you don't know. Yeah. I love that idea. Yeah, Catherine Ryan Howard said to do. Does she pull people? I'm behind on her. I've only read three of her books. I may, I think I've only read four. I still have more to read too, but, like it's just these little things that are in there that do reference just like even if it's

sometimes like a news article that's like referencing an event that happens like sometimes it's as subtle as that like it's not even a whole character oh I'm going to have to pay closer attention I didn't know she did that I'm also yeah I need to read more of her still yeah I know she's she's She's one of my like read to zero authors that I want to work on. No, I love that. Lisa Jewel. I was just about to bring that up. It's like I never had a term for like wanting to get through someone's backlist.

And I'm like, that is such a smart term. Yeah, I don't know where I heard it. I obviously on BookTube. Somebody had said it. Yeah. But like you read down the list. I know. It's a big goal.

Yeah, with like a Lisa Jewel. Oh my gosh. I know. That's always thinking was sequels too because her a family remain or family. upstairs and the family remains. That was another fun one, seeing people's, like, characters come back a little bit. Completely, actually. Yeah.

And then you still get some new people in it. So it's not just like, like you say, like a TV show or it's hard to carry on. Like she dropped some people off, brought some people in. Yeah. Yeah. Very smart. And even Ralph's party has a sequel. And she wrote it.

I want to say it was like 10 years after. And it's called After the Party. And I was listening to an old interview, or I don't know, maybe it was like an interview from like two years ago, but she was talking about it and saying how like she's kind of, not that she was mad that she wrote it, but it was sort of like the 10 year anniversary. And I think there was like a little publisher pressure to write it. So she continued the story. But I liked it. Like I liked seeing where the characters wound up. Right. And it also, you know, and it aged them 10 years. So it was real time. It wasn't like it picked up the day after this book ended. So I always liked it. that when done well.

Yeah, right. She did it well. But yeah, I didn't even realize there was a sequel. Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes they do that with shows that get repicked back up, too, where it's like they do have to age them because the actors are older. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Yeah.

All the reboots. I know all the reboots with all the old shows. Yeah. Sometimes it's not as interesting. it used to be no i know that would suck if you're like super excited to be a part of it and then you're like oh this is just not landing but you got to try sometimes for the reunions i know i feel like that was i got into i don't know if you were a 902 one oh fan uh the original shannon doherty but i like you're probably too you know a little bit about it it's not even necessarily young it's

It's just like restrictive childhood. Oh, okay. So when they did like the reboot where they had like Kelly and Donna and Brendan like brought them back, but they were, it's totally not where their characters would have necessarily ended up. So it was like this weird. They just like needed them for the transition almost. But then they did like another reboot where they played exaggerated versions of themselves.

but people were like, I don't want that. Like, I want Brenda and Brandon and all of that. So it's like it just kind of kept those characters kind of not clicking. But I will still like listen to every podcast and watch everything that they're in. I'm such a Shannon Doory. Yeah. It is cool. There's some podcasts that do like rewatches now where like they do like the actors or whatever.

Well, I was even just, it was Kristen Cavalier. You did it most recently where she's like. Yeah, the lagoon to watch. Why can't I think of it? Thank you, Laguna Beach. Yes. Like, why can't I think of this? It is cool seeing just like the different ways, like media comes back and like new media makes it more interesting.

So cool. I know. And they like spilled secrets from behind the scenes, which I like. Not everybody does that. Like the one tree hill ladies do the same thing. They talk about everything, which I wish. The NDAs must have expired. Yeah.

I know. Oh, it's fascinating, though, just to hear how, yeah, what was really going on. Yeah. I'm here for that, too. Cool. We're podcast junkies, clearly. Yes, I know, always. That's the other reason why I'm not watching TV.

Like, I'm not reading a book. I'm listening to a podcast. Yeah. Like, even if I'm, like, doing laundry or something, I'm, like, rather listen to a podcast and put something on TV lately. Mm-hmm. And we just clearly have... We have so many books in common.

It was like when you were showing all of your, like, revealing all of your books. I was like, oh my gosh, this would sense why I just like follow her reviews all the time. I know. Well, that's like with you and care where I was just like writing it down, reading it, writing it down, reading it. Yeah. There's many good recommendations. I know. And I always talk about you guys on my channel too.

And I'm like, so this was a recommendation by Kate from killing the duty. But it's so like when you said like, we're like, we're going to be. You find people that you, yes, that you trust. And it's just sort of like, like no questions asked, you know, and to be turned on to new authors and new books and everything. Or I was like, oh, like, maybe I'm going to like bump this higher up the list. But I love it. Because you guys talk about so many backlist books too, which I love. It's not just new releases.

So you can really dig into so much stuff that's going on, which I love. I love a good backlist. I know. it is fun for like I got a bunch of net galley like accepted here recently I was laughing too because one of your videos you were like I got denied I'm trying you were like I'm trying not to date personally or something like that and I was like at least it's a universal experience that sometimes I'm like really you denied me for this one I know and then I'm like you approve me for this one like I actually got this but yes yeah I know yeah I know like I got we got two like I got Mary Kubikas

new one and Megan Miranda's new one on a week that like I got declined a debut author and I was like how does that make any sense? I know I don't will never figure out like the neck out I know system I feel like it's a lot of luck I know I'm amazed at what I like yeah what I do get and what I don't get and then yeah I haven't tried yet this year but like last year I begged for Riley Sager and I have gotten E-Arks of his in the past But last year, I was like, emailing his publisher. Like anything, nothing. Nothing.

So, like, come on. And I feel like it came in at like the 11th hour. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like really begging early for that one. And I begged for Ashley when I had nowhere. I don't know. What's happening there?

I, I, why am I frozen? Okay, there we go. That was weird. I had the same. I had the same experience. I didn't get hers. I didn't get Ashley's this year either. I just had to wait. And I was like, I want to read this so bad. Oh, I know. Yeah, that was a drop everything. Yeah, for real. Well, I think it came out. Did it come out in October? I think it came out around my birthday. And I was like, well, at least it's like the best birthday present. Exactly. I know. Yeah. I was totally into that. There's definitely some books. I'm reading the new Vera Pyracurian book. A Step past darkness.

That's what it's called. Yes. It's behind me. Yes. And that was one of those books where I'm like, right? Yeah, I think it's like 400-ish pages. But I definitely was like, I pre-ordered it. And I was like as soon as it comes.

Like I'm going to just stop what I'm doing so I can start reading this book. Yeah. Yeah. So there's some books I'm definitely. Yeah. And it's different than Never Saw Me Coming. But obviously it's like it's still her, but it's a much. Have you read it yet?

Okay. So it's like slower pace. oh okay yeah yeah it's like a slower burn but i'm still she pitched it as like it meets the breakfast club meets the goonies and it's got dual time lines yeah yeah with like this group of friends so in the past timeline is the 90s so i'm just like anything 90s i'm in when i was like trying to pick this and that yeah my gosh i know how do you pick do you pick like what you're reading Are you kind of a mood reader? Is it kind of like we're in the mood for?

Yeah. I used to think I wasn't, which I've said here before, but because I was like, all I read is thrillers. And then I was like, no, but they're like certain different kinds of thrillers that I end up wanting to read or not. Yeah. I've tried to do TBRs or like any of that kind of stuff and it just never like it just never sticks or I feel like I jinx myself.

Like I did a dark academia TBR a couple years ago. read nothing like as soon as I was like I don't want to read any of this I've already like I psyched myself out of it almost yeah yeah very sad yeah that you don't want to ruin your reading experience if you can avoid that I know like when I listen to people who have like scheduled books or like projects or like must read or it just it gives me anxiety thinking about planning that way it just doesn't work for me I know yeah because sometimes I'll like switch it up based on like what I'm like what work looks like for the week to so if I'm like busy or a few days I'm not going to start like a slow burn book because I know it'll feel even slower if I'm

like not reading as much each day so I'm like I need to be able to just like decide in a moment I know I know I try and have like some options clearly today is like proof that I like to have a lot of options but then yeah I just read like two random backlist books last week and I was doing an unhaul. So I was actually filming an unhaul video talking about this book. And I was like, this actually sounds really good. I think I'm going to keep this one. Yes.

But I made a deal with myself. I'm like, I have to read it. Yeah. I was like, I have to read it now. And I did. And it was good. I'm glad I got it before. But yeah, I feel like I just never know what I'm going to be in the mood for.

So I try not to, I can't force it. No. It should be fun. No. Yeah. That's how I got. out with DNFing because it's like if I'm just genuinely not enjoying it like 30% in even, I'm like I feel like at this point I know if the ending is going to save it or not for me.

So I'm just like not really picking the book up because I'm like not interested. I'm like just move on to the next one. Yeah. I know. I don't know. I feel like it's Jordy from Jordy's book club who's like life's too short to read bad books. Like I know a lot of people say it, but he'll always like post.

that reminder when people say they're struggling with a book. Yeah. Because there's some books you feel like I should like. Yeah. I know. Yes. I just had one like that where I like because of like the people who loved it so much. I was like there's no way that I'm not going to enjoy this. And I was like, I'm just not enjoying it. Yeah. It's like what's the other thing? I know. I know. And I feel bad DNFing. Like to the, especially when you say like it's someone that you know who loved it, we're like, why can I not get into this? Yeah. I know.

Yeah. Sometimes it just doesn't click, which is like it is the subjective experience of reading. So I get that like different things just like click in our different people's minds when they're reading. Yeah. Because I like if I hear someone, I was talking to one of my friends about this the other day, about a book that I loved and she loved and some people just really don't like it. And people like tear down, like the way people can just like rip a book apart, which I have no patience for. Just because you like didn't relate to what was happening in the book doesn't mean it's not a valid experience.

Like maybe it wasn't valid for you. But it was I completely related to the book. And then when you hear people say like it's not a valid emotions or things like that and you're like, right, I think it's valid because they're mine. Like I know. Just say it didn't work for you or you didn't relate to it. But yeah, when I hear people tear on books I love. I just don't talk about books unless I liked them is like just easier for me that way. Like I, it's helpful sometimes I guess people's negative reviews, but not when it's just like mean.

Like you can just say it for you. Right. You can be constructive without being rude. I feel the same way. Like if something didn't work for me, I'll talk about it, but not making fun of a book or tearing out a book for sport. yeah yeah yeah I agree that same now we're here for positive positive thrillers or positivity about thrillers sometimes when I'm like serial killer books that I give you my hair so deathly and creepy and just so fun and then I'm like wait what did I just say I know and like I definitely like when

I'm like recommending books people even with um my like when I was interviewing for my job and my yeah I have my LinkedIn that I'm a writer and my boss gone to my now boss saw it and he was so interested in it and he's asking me for book recommendations and I recommended like jar of hearts final girls the kymouth killing and afterwards I was just sort of like that might not have been like a really smart choice especially jar of hearts I'm like that's kind of an aggressive first book he bought it like when I started working there he's like oh I bought that book jar of hearts and I was like all right I just need to preface this and just let you know it's kind of hard that's funny but he read it and he loved it which is good but I was like wow I should have softballed like I definitely should not have led with that

sometimes you just don't know if someone has read thrillers or not like because if they're just not used to it. There are who was I just, uh, I was just talking to Steph, books in Badgerland. And she was saying like she started a book club with people who like, didn't necessarily read thrillers, read like contemporary fiction or whatever we want to call it. Um, and, but she convinced them, like, let's have a thriller book club, like convince a couple people to do that. And she had no idea because the book had just come out what it was going to be about. And so, the first book they read was the last housewife. And these, like, most of them had, like, not read thrillers.

And they were texting her and they're like, I don't know if I'm going to make it through this or not. She was like, I didn't know. I didn't know it was going to be so intense. You know, she said, last housewife, sound of kind of light. Yes. I know. Yeah, I definitely, but I had even recommended, I'm trying to think it was the, the new

Lisa Jewel book. None of this is true. Yeah. None of this is true. To someone, yeah, who she had read a Simone St. James. So I felt like, oh, yeah. Safe. I didn't think this is like a bad.

She was horrified by this book. And I also recommended Ruth Ware. And I was like, I don't remember that being violent or inappropriate. And I was like, right. I don't put Ruth in that category. And I was like, apparently it was. I'm like, but you read Simone St. James. She's kind of scary.

Like, she writes stories. So it's like, man, I just, I can't recommend books. Unless I know you're like in the dark. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you're in the darkness with me. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's usually what I try and put in reviews. Like particularly dark or like might give you a nightmare. Like those kinds of things, which don't make them bad, but you might not make them for everybody kind of a book. Right. Yeah. I agree. That's typically what's helpful with those reviews for sure. Yeah. Give them just enough without.

Yeah. Without spoiling things. I know. Yeah. Well, for everyone who does want more dark, disturbing, slightly scary, but really great and fun books. Wisdomlyzed a little sometimes. Yes, there's that one too. There's that one too. Your Instagram account, Chapters and Converse, has tons there as well. is your YouTube channel slash chapters? Also chapter.

Or is that like? They're both chapter and converse. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I didn't know if that was too. But I'll also put the links in the bio for everyone to follow for all of our thriller fans. So thank you for sharing all of your, just like all of your reading recommendations and tastes and everything.

Sure. Thanks for having me. This is so much fun.