Bookwild - Bad Things Happening in Cul-De-Sacs with Brian Watson

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

This week, I chat with Brian Watson @readingwithbrian about how long we've both been reading, thrillers that stood out as ones that created our love for thrillers, and some of our favorite domestic suspense thrillers!Books/Authors We Talked AboutRegrets Only by Kieran ScottThe Push by Ashley AudrainYou Deserve to Know by Aggie Blum ThompsonThe Woman Inside by E.G. ScottA.R. TorreMadwoman by Chelsea BiekerI'll Be You by Janelle BrownLocal Woman Missing by Mary Kubica   Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I just want to read all the time right now, which is probably just always true. But I started a book that I really, really, really loved two days ago, or really, really loved called We Don't Talk About Carol. And it's so good. Like, I'm like hooked. I'm dying to read it. Everyone on my Instagram feed is getting their net galley copies of it. And I'm like, where's mine? I know.

I know. So, yeah, more than usual. I had like a couple in a row that were like three. 5s, which is not bad, but I can like tell this one's a five. And so I'm just like, I'm just like looking at my phone all day. Like, can I open my Kindle app? I had almost an entire month of three and a half and four star books. Yeah.

I spent a lot of time curating what I'm going to read. So I rarely get a dud, you know, I can use some of tell, uh, if I'm going to like, if I'm going to like it, it's going to be my, you know, my realm of liking. Yes. And so I am. am i just got yesterday the new mary cubica book um yeah so i have a feeling that's gonna really like break me out of the three and a half four star yeah i bet it will yeah he's pretty amazing she is go she is in conversation with julie clark uh for julie clark's the ghostwriter

in chicago so i'm going to see them on like june 17th so i'm excited excited for you i'm seeing julie with uh jordy at a diesel bookstore and uh brettwood in june as well like diesel's killing it next month they have lisa jule they have jul they have julie clark and someone else i'm going to see so i'm very excited about that yeah yeah we don't get like we'll get almost no one in indiana so all of the um events i've gone to i just kind of started going to them but like i went to Wisconsin in February because Steph was up there and then Lane Fargo was there. And then I went to like a suburb of Chicago for Ashley Winstead in April. So like like those two basically aren't didn't come to Indiana. Lisa Jewel is going to be actually in the city. I was just telling you about Lisa Jewel of all

people's coming to a library in Indiana. And I was like what? In Carmel. Yes. So I'm going to go to that. I can't remember I think it's July. I think That's what her release is. But like when she announced it, I like immediately got tickets. I was like, nobody comes here, but Lisa Jewel will. Listen, if you're going to get someone, Lisa's a great. Yeah. I know.

I love her so much. Well, I should probably introduce you. I'm here this week with Brian Watson and he is reading with Brian on books to gram. Are you on TikTok? I'm very little. I was on TikTok and I left TikTok about a year and half ago to come on Instagram.

Yeah. TikTok's a little much for me. It's a lot. I have not kicked my habit. I definitely... Oh, I still do scroll on it. Don't get me more. Yes.

Okay. That's... We're kind of in the same spot. Yes. Yes. People just feel entitled to literally say anything they want to you on TikTok. Yeah. I'm not an easily shocked person, but sometimes I'm like, are you okay?

Right. What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like it, you do have to just kind of make slightly different content. And then I've just had better like connecting with people on Bookstagram. So that's kind of where like I do scroll, but I don't really post there.

So, um, but you guys can follow them on Instagram is what we've definitely learned at this point. You told me your cat's name before we were recording. And I feel like everyone needs to know about your cat's name. Um, I have a Siamese cat name, Agatha Christie. I love it. She's pretty awesome. That's amazing. I think, I think Audrey Agner and I kept talking about Agatha Christie because it made me think

of her when you said that. But that, I don't think there's a better name, a thriller reader could have for a pet. I agree. Yeah. So I always, when it's kind of like their first time on, I always want to know, like, did you, did you read or have you read? Like, was it something like your whole life long? did you kind of discover it in adulthood? What has like, what has reading been like for you?

Well, I grew up in southeast Georgia to a very blue-collar family. So we, we didn't have a lot of paid extracurricular activities. So I spent a lot of time in the library. Also growing up as a gay man in the in the South during the time I grew up, the library was like a safe place for me. and academia was a place that I felt a bit protected. And so I spent a lot of my time in the library and I used to read like a crazy man. Plus they were handing out personal pan pizzas and it was just really my love language. And then as an adult, I kind of, you know, discovered life and friends and partying and all that kind of stuff. And I didn't read for a long time unless it was a book that like three people were like,

here you have to read this book and I would read it and you know I think I for so long I wasn't reading the kind of books that I really love I would always try to find my you know shoehorn myself into reading these great lit fit books you know that I kept hearing everyone talk about like it's the best and it's the greatest and I would literally be like you know 14 books on the side of my bed with you know one eighth of it you know read and so years went by and then during this last election, I decided, so that would have been probably what, 20, 23 that started. I decided I'm getting off of any sort of social media that involves politics. I'm not watching the news anymore. I'm not being caught up in this like, this bubble, this cycle. So I set a goal to read like 20 books in a year,

which sounded like so much. Yeah. So I read those in like a month. So then it just kept, I kept resetting the goal. I'm a very goal-oriented person. And last year, I read like 200 books. I started out, like I said, in TikTok, then I really found this bookstagram community that I love. And really got into reading thriller, suspense, and it was like a fish to water. Like I won't say I have an addiction,

but if I don't read, it kind of puts me in a bad mood. Me too. Yeah. It just like calms my brain down is the way that I try to explain it to my husband, where when we've just had a lot of work and like I just don't get as much time to read. And then I finally do again, I'm like, I feel like a nicer person inside my brain right now. Yeah, yeah. I love it.

I love it so much. And it has given me such an escape from other like personal things going on in my life. I'm kind of in the season of grief in my life right now. and it's been the the cure-all for so many things for me. I love that. I feel like I get all excited about like the power of story, like often because I just think it's, I think it's cool the way it can like capture your attention, kind of like you're saying, even if you're like going through something difficult.

I also kind of, because sometimes I feel like I obviously watch TV and movies too. But because you have to like literally like read and then like create the image in your head, sometimes I think it's almost it can feel more immersive. And so like sometimes if I am more anxious, it's like reading just like take so much of my mind that it really like helps me not go that direction. And then I just I just also love how you can like live so many lives through like other people's stories too. Like that part's really cool.

Oh, there's Agatha. Oh, she is so cute. Is she beautiful? She is. She has pretty eyes, too. She loves a beautiful cat ever. I love it. Steff's cat sometimes just like walks right across her keyboard when we're recording.

I was trying to train her to walk across the back of the bookshelf here. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, get the assignment down, Agatha. Come on. Right. Yeah, so for people who aren't watching, he has two, full bookcases behind him. And you mentioned that those are all ones that you just want to read eventually.

Yeah, and you can't see, but this entire room is filled with those. So I have one, two, three, four, five, six bookcases. Wow. That are full of books that I have not read. Well, that's not true. There's one half of one bookshop are signed copies and books that are personalized or special editions, that kind of stuff. Right.

Yeah, but I was sharing with you, I don't keep books after I read them unless they're the aforementioned ones. I like to keep them, keep them in the book universe. I run a little free library in my neighborhood. Nice. And I donate a lot to my friends of the library neighbor store. And I'm always giving books to everybody. I love that. Yeah, I really, and I'm going to, because things have kind of even out with work a little bit.

but I want to go make content with our library. Just, I know even libraries are somehow under attack at this point. And I'm like, I need to go make content with them too. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, one of the things that's super important that I don't know if people know this or not, but even if you don't use the library, every single person should sign up for a library card because their membership is what dictates their funding. Yeah.

And libraries, as you said, But libraries are under attack, and it's literally the one place on earth that everybody is equal. Everyone who walks in the door, it's the most equitable place you can be in our society. And I love the limer. I'm obsessed with it. I'm so fortunate here where I live. There's probably 10 great libraries I can go to. That's awesome.

And yeah, and I just like to sometimes go and hang out there and just like walk around. And like, I love librarians. They're probably my favorite. people on earth. Yes. Yeah, guys, anyone watching sign up for a library card?

Yes. Yeah. I, we actually literally have one, like one went in in our neighborhood. Like, when we moved here, there,

it was tiny when we moved here. It's crazy how much it's grown. And so then like as it got bigger, our town actually ended up getting its own library. And so then I finally just got, because I used to have to literally go to another town over. but I finally got one here and I just when I posted about it because I was like I think I'm going to like reach out like what kind of content does anyone think would be useful it was interesting because some people were responding and saying like how their library has even like access to 3D printers like there's like so much that people also don't even know about and so when she said that I was like that's crazy like she must live somewhere like I don't know like more populated where I do.

Yeah. And then I checked mine. You can literally 3D print things. It's like 50 cents a minute. And they have like classes. So I was just looking at all. I'm like there's so much. And then it's like we don't have kids,

but it's like you can you get discounts to like museums and stuff. Like there's there's just so much to it. So I need to just, I need to just go in and be like, hey, I would like to make content with you guys. Yeah. Well,

it's, I mean, and again, you know, we, as you said, libraries and the funding is under attack right now. Yeah. You know, and, you know, that's a big part of the attempt to dump down this population. And I think the more people are reminded because, you know, so many people read their books on online now.

They purchase them, audible, that type of stuff. But you can get all of that through your library as well, through Libby, through hoopla. Like, you can do all of those things. Like, I have a good friend who, we were talking about books. And she said, oh, you know, I just, I buy everything off of. Amazon. And I'm like, oh, well, you're reading 10 year old books. You're spending $17 for it. I opened up my liby app and they're literally all available. She'd never even heard about before. Yeah. Yeah. And also kind of to your point about even just getting a library card in general,

I know that like, especially with like debut authors, new authors, like requesting that book from the library really helps them out too. So it's like, yeah, I do want to, like, like push, just push some stuff out there about that. Because it's like I didn't, I didn't know that our library had a 3D printer. Like, that's kind of cool. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure there's a whole litany of things that I don't even, and I go to the library.

I'm sure there's a whole litany of things they do that I don't even know about. Yeah. I, I'm, yeah, I think so. I just, I loved going to the library too when I was a kid. And like, that was like, when I got to, when I got to check out more than two books, that's when I was like, oh my god my life is amazing my mom let me check out four books oh god and the personal bad visas that part is like I like how we were just all like eating pizzas for for reading

I still reward myself a pizza when I mean to learn to be a good idea or like I don't know I saw a meme here recently and I was like oh my gosh glass from the past but there used to be like the test you would take to like after you read a book like someone just shared a screenshot of it and I was like oh my gosh I remember just like racking up how many books I could read and then like answering these silly questions about them yeah that's a core memory I know it is my parents uh at one point they were just trying to encourage reading in general and so it was something like for the summer for every book we read we would get a dollar and then for for every five we read, we would get $5.

And my brother, like, didn't make any money. And I made so much that, like, after the first month, they're like, I don't think we need to pay you to do this. And I was like, yeah, I mean, you don't. They're all, we're changing the rules on this game. Yeah, they're like, never mind, I guess you already wanted to, which is like, that's kind of the crazy thing. I have a niece and nephew and I talk to my sister-in-law sometimes.

And, like, her daughter, my niece, like we'll go through phases where she's like oh reading is really fun she was actually reading the inheritance games she's like 14 so that was like kind of right up her alley but she's like but then she just like sometimes she'll read like 30 pages and then won't read for weeks and then we'll pick it back up so it is interesting because like it doesn't just like naturally like not everyone's naturally like into it but I we are. obviously. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um, was there any book? So you kind of came out. You said you tried to read Litfic, which I also came from a family that was like, whittie twity is the word that

just came to mind and I couldn't tell you why. But like the very like, they were also very academic about like what they read and kind of the pompous version of that. Um, and so I discovered thrillers in college basically when I was like finally picking. what I read for fun. And so the, oh gosh, why can't I think of the Peter Swanson title now? The Kind Worth Killing. The Kind Worth Killing and Gone Girl were like in my first few months of reading. So I always think of those.

I know. Wait, set the bar high. Right. Like there is not much room to go up from there. No. But I always think of those when I think of like starting to read stuff that I really love. Do you have any memories of any of the books that were like, oh, I like this more? Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, if I were to pick my Mount Rushmore books, I would definitely have misery by Stephen King on it. Oh, yeah. But I was reading Stephen King when I was like 13 and 14. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Probably too young. I was reading Stephen King, V.C. Andrews, Dean Arcoons, like these authors. and then I went into high school and I was in AP English and I had this AP English teacher, Mrs. Caulfield, who I was not a huge fan of, still not, because she kept saying, don't read books like that.

You shouldn't be reading books like that. And made me think, because she was an authority figure, made me think. She's like, oh, no. And so she would be like, don't read that and hand me, Madam Bovary. Yeah, that's not the same. it's not the same to a 14-year-old boy who's literally trying to escape the world. Right. You know, a 19th century French woman is not his escapism, you know.

Yeah. But misery, misery is a book that I remember. I still vividly remember. It was the first book I stayed up all night reading. I couldn't stop reading it. And Annie Wilkes, that character changed my life. Yes. And I think I, you know, I think when people do heroin, they call it chasing the dragon.

Yeah. And I spent many years chasing that dragon. Yes. And Gone Girl was one of those books that for me, I think Gone Girl is kind of the pace car for everything that I read now. Gone Girl, the Girl on the Train, those two books kind of. Yep. If you like those books, you'll like everything that I read. Yeah.

Yeah. But definitely. They were still good. There's like what, I think that's what the time. So would have been like. around 2012 probably so it was it was like early early then we've really had some bangers from the throwlanders oh absolutely yeah i love it and it it was also my first experience with an unreliable narrator with gone girl spoiler alert hopefully if you're listening to this that's not a spoiler alert

for you at this point i think 13 years is actually the expiration on spoilings yeah in this genre with that book Like, I think we're saying. Yes. But I just remember, like, also, like, learning the term unreliable narrator and, like, saying it all the time and, like, feeling so cool. Oh, all the time. Oh, my gosh. I, uh, sorry, someone just texted me and it totally stole my attention. Um, I just kept saying it.

I was like, unreliable narrows are so interesting. So interesting. Yeah. I loved it. I remember, like, reading through my lectures, like, literally, because you could, you can also read on a computer, like you can pull up your Kindle library through Amazon. And I remember sitting in lectures that I didn't ever remember anything about because I was like, I have to finish this book. It's so good. Well, and which one of those things are you using now? Let's be honest. Exactly.

I didn't even graduate. You made good choices. You made good choices. I think reading was the right choice for me. Always. Yeah. Do you think, do you think you know? Because I know we didn't always know, but do you think you know what you love about reading thrillers? Yeah, I do. I think for me, I need to constantly be considering what's going to happen. I was reading an article recently, I think it was in the New York Times, about Reese Witherspoon's book club. Yeah. And she said what made her kind of developed this book club is because she wasn't interested in reading a 700-page book about a tree. And that so explained me. And I was like, I feel so seen when I, and I love, I love Reese's book club. Almost every single one of her choices.

It's, I feel like it's curated for me. Yeah. I primarily read female authors. I like a good, I like to be entertained. I like to escape. I like some emotion and I like all those things too, but for me, it's the escapism. It's, uh, and I like that. And I like that. thrill. Yeah, I feel that. That's, I think that's a huge part of it for me. The other thing is like, uh, trying to figure things out like pulls me to the end is kind of the best way I can describe it, like, where you're just so locked in that you're like theorizing while you're doing other things. My sister long, I just mentioned, she like mostly reads like historical fiction, um, like, uh, a lot of World War II, I think. Aren't they?

all set in World War II. I think you're right. Exactly. I just, it could never be made. The housekeeper mansions, the janitor aboutshments.

Yes. Yes. And then she read, I always forget, I think it's called the frozen river or the frozen winter, which is like historical fiction, but also a thriller.

I know. I feel like I would enjoy it from what I've heard. It's an excellent book, Ariel Lawson. I actually saw her at an author event. Oh, that's cool. Last year at Beverly.

Hill's Library. Very interesting one. And yeah, I can deal with historical fiction. Yes. Because Wanda M. Morris writes some that are like that. Oh my gosh. That I'm obsessed with her. So I like that basis in history because I do enjoy history. You know, and I

do read some nonfiction. I just finished a nonfiction book yesterday that I'm slightly obsessed with right now. What was it? But it's called No More Tears. Okay. And it's the, I think I can't say it's an expose, but it's a book about all of the atrocities the Johnson & Johnson Company has done to American consumers. Yes, I've seen that cover. Yep. It is.

It's a, I was holding out to get on Libby because I didn't want, I didn't know if I wouldn't invest in buying the book because sometimes nonfiction can be a little dry for me. Yeah. I tear through. I don't, I don't DNF any, not any fiction books. Like I, everything I start, I finish. That's good free. kind of what I do. I read 300 books. I'm not reading, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Still. I've had some DNFs this year, but sometimes it's also related to like if I have a deadline, either on NetGalley or I'm interviewing someone, it's like I need to move on to something that I do like is kind of where it had to come from this year. No question for you. What do you? Okay, because I sometimes think I have. some like dnses like did not start like how much of the book that's a good point because sometimes

i'll read a chapter or two and be like oh i'm not vibing with that right now yeah we'll come back to it at some point but so i don't really consider that a dnf that's a good point mine's like um if i'm at like 80 pages and also one of the one of the main indicators for me is that i am just opening ticot and doom scrolling every chance i get instead of picking the book up and then i'm like That typically means I'm to the point where I've already debated, like, am I liking this enough? And so then that's kind of when I, if I'm like truly like not just not going to the book, that's kind of my indicator. But it's like sometimes it is so hard because sometimes if I do just power through, I end

up being like, wow, I'm really glad that I like sat with that setup. So that's the part that's really hard for me. But I, I can't remember if we were saying it before I hit record or not. But people who like consistently have one and two star reviews, I'm like, Steph and I've talked about it too. It's like you like you clearly don't know yourself. Like how are you picking books that poorly for yourself? Yeah.

Who hurt you? Yeah. Like either that's that's kind of what we've joked about. Like either you kind of like hating things, which is definitely a personality. type 100% or what are you doing here like why are you thinking of these books so like the other main thing I learned is like especially women well I read a lot of fiction that really is like female main characters but when they're just like willing to completely look past like a lot of red flags I've learned that that one doesn't work for me it's like sometimes people get so

excited about it and then I'll be like oh I do want to read this but like sometimes or not sometimes I've just I've just had to learn that like when I'm reading that I'm like come on girl come on so I need to like not those up anymore. I had a couple of those DNF this year and I'm like I need to just let it go. I have plenty on my radar or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. That's where I am with that. I get what you mean though with the do not starts because there are somewhere you're like oh never mind. This isn't sometimes you can tell just the tone. too you're like oh like this this sentence the way it all like reads in my head isn't working for me yeah like the first page you're trying to describe the room that you're in it's probably not a good fit for me most of the time same like i i kind of need something to get going fairly soon in a book i like that um i like i like a little energy up front then you can take time to develop the characters

paint the scenery, all of that. But I got to kind of know, like, and I like books that are like, you know, and then she walked in on his dead body. Yes. And chapter two was four months ago. I like that. You know, I always, my absolute favorite TV show of all time is Desperate Housewives. So I always kind of think, like, would, would this happen on Wisteria Lane?

Because if it would, I would love this. So that's kind of like, when I just need something that's good and fun to read, that's kind of my go to. Yeah. Have you been watching your friends and neighbors? No, I have not been watching anything. I used to be such a TV person. I don't watch as much as I used to. It's crazy. Like, I'm literally right now, only because of my husband, I'm watching, I'm, I'm even embarrassed to say. It's a docus series. It's a docuseries about the plight of young mothers and Appalachian. Wow. That is very interesting.

It's, it's teen mom, I know. Oh, nice. That's even, oh, that's hilarious. You should write copy for people. Yes, yes, right? That's amazing. The only reason I brought that up was I've talked about them a couple of times, pop fiction women.

It's a podcast. They, I know them. Yeah, I love the stuff that they share. But they did an episode about it and she called it. What was her? Oh, you plus desperate housewives. And that is a really good descriptor.

Except like it's not the super darkness of you. It's that John Hamm's character like narrates. But it's a lot more. The gist of it is he's been made. married for like 20 years. Okay. The pilot has one of the best like, you're supposed to do this.

So you do this. And then you get married. So he breaks down like how he got to where he was. And it's like such a good way of showing even just how capitalism has shaped, especially men in that generation. Not that it's not all generations. But so he works this way all the way up. He's like in some version of finance.

I haven't stayed up with it. And gets the bigger, bigger house. But then it's even like showcasing how he was like, so you think I'm, I'm rich. But what I am is like leverage. And there's some witty, funny line about like, which means everything looks okay, but you're actually like just barely paying for everything. Yeah. So it's really witty.

And I really was impressed with that. So then he finds out that his wife has been cheating on him. with his best friend for like a year. She, they, they separate and somehow she keeps the house. And so now she's living in the house that he bought for them and he's living in like a condo. Nothing against condos. This is just what happened. So somehow she gets to keep the house and he's paying her matrimony.

Matrimony, not matrimony, alimony. Alimony. Alimony. And then he gets. fired from his job because his boss is like a little intimidated by him. So now he's not making any of the money. He's not even living in his house. Their teenage children like hate him even though mom was the one who was cheating. And the way I felt when I got to the end of the first episode, I was like, I didn't think I was ever going to feel bad for like a 50 plus white man in finance straight white man in finance.

And somehow they did it. Like I you feel how unfair it is. It's not an. He's not an asshole either. So that's my long way of saying it's not like the dark version of you, but you get his narration. And it's like all of this snarky, kind of witty satire as he even starts to realize how ridiculous the excess is in the neighborhood that he lives in. Interesting. And then he has to resort to some criminal activities to keep up appearances.

Okay. So I'll just leave that. But I really. It sounds like something I was about. Yeah, I'll check it out. It's interesting you just said you because I just started reading the books. I just finished last week, Hidden Bodies last week. And my next book after I get over this Johnson and Johnson Hangover is going to be number three in the series.

Nice. I still haven't read the books. And it seems, I'm glad I'm not the only one that you're like just eating to it. I am obsessed. with Joe. I'm upset. And I never saw the show. So I had no point of reference going into this. And so I did a little combo immersive listening, reading and listening at the same time. And I love the guy, I don't know what his name is, who does the audiobooks. I'm like, it's, you know, it's not the first zero killer I've had a crush on, but I am, I'm absolutely a fan of the books. Check them out. Like, they're top-notch.

The first two are fabulous. So. Yeah. she's what an idea and execution like from her was such a well done yeah totally well done what was that making me just think of it made me think of something but i think it left my brain oh you can read and listen i i have heard about this and i feel like it would literally stress me out so i'm just like impressed. I thought it would do you read it. Do you read above one X or listen? Sorry, you listen. Of course. Yeah. Because one X to me is like, like, it sounds like someone's talking in slow motion to me. Yeah. It stresses me out to have it sound fast. Yeah. It stresses me out for it to be.

That's how my husband is. One is for like, no offense, but like for my mother. That's okay. You have to speak very clearly and very succinctly too, and she has to understand. But I'm just kind of a fast talker in general. I do. And yeah, I usually listen around 1.5. Yeah. And then sometimes if I'm like tearing through it, because I read fast. Yeah.

So I pace it to my physical reading. I paste the audio to that. Yeah. And are you in that case reading a physical book or the like? Yes. Yes. I really enjoy physical books. It's always my go-to is a hardcover physical book.

That's always my go-to. Yeah. Yeah. I get sad when I can't get much book in. I just get sad when I can't get a book I love in hardcover. Yeah. Well, at least that I feel like it's better if you're a physical reader, physical book reader, to prefer it because that's what comes out first.

I'm always like, I would prefer a floppy paperback if I was going to read a physical book, but it's, so then I had the realization of like, oh, if I wasn't an e-reader, like, I would have to wait for so many books. And like, hope that it did well enough to become a paperback. So I feel like I lucked out on that one, but I think that might be why I prefer hard covers, maybe, because they come up first. Yeah. Yeah.

You just kind of develop that. Yeah, I like, I really enjoy like publication day and being involved in that. And like, even like a perfect example, like their double lives by Jamie Lynn. I was just going to bring it up. I love her. She's, she's become a good, good buddy of mine here. She's so sweet. She's such a great person.

And I, so, you know, she sent me a copy of her book. But of course, I'm buying it today too. You know, because I, yeah, obviously, if I, if I love an artist, an author, I will still buy their book when it comes out. Totally. I think, you know, it's so important, you know, and I request them at my library. Even if I don't check them out, I still request them. Yeah.

You know, I, I'm a, I'm a literal hype man when it comes to people that I enjoy. And if you're an excellent writer and you're a good person, I know. Done, done, sign me up. Yes. The shameless plug that this episode is going to be coming out like three days after Jamie Lynn Hendricks episode. Oh, it's so pretty. I love the teal and orange together. It's so pretty.

The book is so good. It is weird. It's so good because I think, especially anyone who's ever owned a dog. Like, when you use that as a justification, you have literally, like, anyone who's ever had a dog is like, I get it. Yes. I got it. I was flying back. I flew out to New York in January.

And a friend of mine was. starring in Chicago. I never seen Chicago before. So we go out there, it's like seven degrees, which I haven't in Southern California. I'm not designed for that kind of weather. No, you're not.

It was so cold. Like, it was so cold. I can only imagine how shocking that is. It was awful. It was awful. I was miserable time. So finally my husband and I were like, let's just go home.

Why are we here? Like, he lived in New York when we met. We've been in New York plenty of time. So I'm like, let's just go home. So as we're in the airport, I get a, the net galley has approved your for this. So I downloaded it and read it on my Kindle, on the air, in the flight, on the flight home, I read it. And by the time I got off the flight, I'm like texting her like, this is amazing. You did it again.

I think finding Tessa, I think is one of the best thrillers that's come out in the last five years. I think it's phenomenal. I think a phenomenal book. I can't believe it was her debut. And I think last year, an honest lie was my number two or number three book last year. Yeah. That one was so good. And it was like I said, I think my favorite still though is actually it could be anyone. I just I loved the way she did, which she we, Garrett and I were saying that to her because we talked to her about their double lives. I just feel like she Ashley Winstead has coined her the queen of the page Turner, which I also agree with. I also feel like she is the queen of multi-POV. Like she just does it. so well. Oh, wow. And it's so fun. Um, but to the dog point, I had this kind of like crazy

confluence of events this week. So we interviewed, we interviewed her, I think last week, like on Thursday or Friday or something. Um, and then, uh, I follow a lot of what I do, what I do consume on TikTok a lot of is a lot of like, uh, film film bros, I guess is what I'm still going to call them, not in a bad way. Um, But someone shared about there was a documentary done about the making of the John Wick movies. It's called WIC is Pain. I was just looking about that this morning. Yeah.

Yeah. So for anyone who's wanting to, you can go find it too. You do just have to buy it, I think, for $10. I think it was a purchase instead of rental. So it's not on a platform, basically. It's the only reason I was saying that. But he was talking about how he was like, I thought I loved the John Wick. movies before and like I love them even more now and I love like all that like BTS kind of stuff about

like if it's books or movies or TV like I just want to hear about it all coming together. So we finally like we bought it like three or four days ago and just it's two hours long. It's fantastic. But like it just kept being too late to start it basically by the time we were done with work. And so we watched it last night. but the like kind of trippy part was I had just edited the episode of Jamie. And then they were talking about how like it's hard to think because we all know that John Wicks like, well, they kill his family, but his wife, but also his puppy. They kill a dog.

And that is what launches all of these deaths. And so we're all kind of a little more used to that now. I think like culturally, but they were talking about how like studios kept wanting to like it almost did not get made. They kept wanting to drop it. Really? Yes. I could see that. I could see that. Yeah. And so then when they were doing the test audience, the like first they would do the screenings. The first question for everyone was, does the dog death justify the like amount of human deaths that come after?

And they said that men were at like 60%. I think it was like 58% said yes. Women said 92% of them said yes. And I kind of I turned to Tyler and I was like, that's actually kind of like, it's almost like kind of your proof. Like of course it did well. They managed to even capture the female audience for like a really action heavy movie too because we're all like, yes. That's my baby that you killed. I will kill all of you.

And so then I turned out, I was like, wait a second. I was like, literally the episode that just came out today is a thriller about like what a woman was willing to do to save her dog. So I'm just having all the dog stuff this week. I love that. I'm shocked that those numbers are that low. I know. The men. I mean, the world that I live at, I'm like, that would be unanimous.

But I, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You still will move before. Just so I've announced context. you have four dogs that are friends with Agatha. Yes, Agatha has four, three brothers and a sister. Oh, that's so adorable.

I just, it's always so cute. Well, I guess I don't know if your dogs are big, but like when cats are little and the dogs are bigger or big dogs with little dogs, so cute. Yeah. Yeah, I have, um, they range in size from like 15 pounds to 40 pounds. Oh, wow. But they're all, they're all fluffy. They all look like Dolly Parton at different points in her career.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, like we have 70s dolly, we have 80s dolly, we have current day dolly. Oh, they're all blonde and fluffy. Oh my gosh. That's adorable. Ours are, Harley's like, I hear the dog voice. Do you want to talk to me? She hasn't moved this whole time.

Oh, that's my people. Yeah. Yeah, she is. But yes, Jamie Lynn Hendricks, everyone needs that book. Love. If you love thrillers, you've got to read it. It's just so fun. her voice, her tone, all of it.

Me too. And she's just the best. She was, it was crazy. Ashley Winstead was technically my first interview. She's the second episode, uh, that I ever released, but I like recorded it before the first one. And that was for in my dreams,

I hold a knife, which is like crazy thinking back on it now. Like you're just like, how did that much time pass already? Um, but she was at the end, she was like, you need to read this book by this new author, Jamie Lynn Hendricks. So she's even who connected me with Jamie for finding Tessa. She was like, I loved this book that she wrote. Like, it wasn't even out yet. And so she connected us. And I think I even read like a PDF version of it. Like I didn't have NetGalley at that point either because I didn't have a platform to like fill out everything to be like, here's what I do.

I mean, that's pretty impressive that Ashley was your first guest. I mean, she's kind of like you're gone girl, you know. I know. No. She really used. And that's what was so crazy because recently we're basically building packages for authors because in my like regular life, my regular job or whatever, my husband I make content for people for social media. So then we wanted to be like, I should be offering this to authors too. And so then it was crazy because we thought we were going to do the first like a trial one with. Liz and Greg, who it's like Elizabeth McCullough Keenan. I always forget because she's a beautiful name and Greg Wands. Trust issues. Yes, for trust issues. And then we got sick and then they got sick.

The next. So I ended up going to their launch party, but we didn't have time to like make the content ahead of time, which was like sad at the time. And it still would have been fun to do. But then it was just, it felt kind of like kismet because. then Ashley, who was my first interview, was then my first example for these social media packages. I like that. So there's some kind of cool, some cool synchronicities there, basically with that. What a great book to work with.

This book will bury me as phenomenal. I love it. It was so good. It's right now sitting in my top three of the year so far. Definitely. The depth of like emotion. she went into was so impressive. And because I can't stop talking about it, one of the things that's interesting to me about we don't talk about Carol is to give a very short description. This comes out on

June 3rd. But when I was, I made it to like 60% last night. And I had been like, what is this kind of reminding me of? And it's a story of a woman whose grandma passes. And so she goes to her home. to kind of like like clean up everything and like get the house ready to sell and while she's there she's reminded of something she had kind of asked about in her childhood and someone was like we don't talk about carol so that's like where we get the title but basically and I don't think this is spoiler at all I think this is all in the synopsis she finds out she had an aunt that just no one ever told her about like her dad's sister um and And it's her dad's mom who just passed and her dad has passed as well.

So she has all of these questions and wants to know about it. And then discovers that basically, so Carol was a girl who in the mid-1960s, one of like five, I think black girls who went missing in North Carolina where they are in Raleigh. And so she gets obsessed with it. And so you're getting like this, you're kind of getting a little bit. bit of historical fiction, kind of like the amount I like to get in a thriller. So you're getting some of that historical fiction aspect. And so then for the longest time, I was like, what's it reminding me of? It's kind of reminding me of this book will bury me because the character has so many big feelings happening and now has gotten obsessed with like, if I solve this, I'll feel

better about stuff. So it's really fascinating that it's like, it's very much a different story, but I'm going to have to find like what other story it reminds me of and then be like it's like this plus this book will bury me but it's so yeah I this book will bury me for me was so impactful because as I was sharing with you this has been kind of a season of grief for me I lost one of my best friends in my life last year very very quickly and it's actually the first death I've experienced as an adult that's big huge yeah And so seeing how Ashley was processing her grief through this character. Yeah. After losing her father, to me, it just spoke to me and touched me at that time and place. And on top of the fact, she is a phenomenal writer.

You know, it's, I have three books now. I'm not sure which is my favorite of the year, but it's, that's, it's one of there. I agree. I really connected with like, I haven't lost anyone yet, thankfully. But I really relate to when feelings get too big, like control is what I'm going to try to go toward. So I really related with like the way that Jane was like trying to be in a world where she could control stuff and find answers because she couldn't find any answers for what happened to her dad and why it happened. So it's so good.

She's so good. She's just amazing. She's so talented and she's so, and she's just a fabulously kind human being too. She's so nice. Yeah, she's so nice. And I, again, I like people that are great authors and good people. Yeah.

She checks all my boxes too. She does. She's just the best. I feel like I'm gonna assemble my own team of Avengers. Yes. My thriller Avengers with like Jamie Lynn and Ashley and Robin Harding and Maycox. I feel like that's my,

my Avengers list. Oh my gosh. I just saw that. May Cobb just had that cover announce or cover cover reveal. So good. So good. I can't wait to see what it's like. I just,

I had the great benefit last summer when she was doing press for the Hollywood assistant. I met her. First met her at Zibby's bookstore in Santa Monica. We totally hit it off. She's such a kind person. And she came back for another event they were having. And then her and Josh Sabarro were at the Barnes & Noble by me.

So we just kind of hit it off. And like she's such a, such a nice person. I know. She is like the definition of a care bear. Like she is so kind. She's such a talented writer. And The Hunting Wives is one of my all-time, like, all-time favorite books. Can we get that story series?

I know. I think it airs this year, but I can't totally remember. It's supposed to have. We just don't have a date yet. Okay. Most of my messages with May are like anywhere from stars. I know. I know.

That's what when I interviewed her for, yeah, it would have been Hollywood assistant. I was the same tag where I was like, do you know anything? Yeah. Like, not really. I was like, okay. But she is, she's about like epitome of like she is so sweet and writes some of the most unhinged stuff. I just love it. Hens. And I love to see like, I love seeing these female authors especially support each other.

That's what I think is so dope. And, you know, especially in this thriller space that's been dominated by male authors for so long. I love, love seeing this, like, renaissance of female authors that are killing it now. Yes. Like, I'd say 90% of these books behind me are by female authors. I know. That's what sometimes when I, like, scroll through. I'm like, the diversity I'm lacking is straight men for all of my podcasts, but I'm like, I can't help it. There you go.

I have like a couple of them a year, I think. And I was like, oh, well, if that's what I'm missing, I'm not going to worry about it. They'll be just fine. I'm sure there's somewhere else in life they'll excel. Right. Someone will somehow they'll survive. I know. I can't even remember who it was.

some one of these female authors that we loved there was some uh there was an imprint that was like started just for male writers and someone shared it and they're like thank god thank god no one's been helping them no one how will they ever get ahead in life yeah totally um well kind of adjacent to all the female authors we love i was asking what your favorite kind of like subgenre is and you said you love domestic suspense i do i do i do if it happens in a cul-de-sac yes i am yeah i like uh like i was i was telling you desperate housewives is kind of my go-to like i've re-watched that series probably 10 times and i just like that soapy nature to books i um i still read you know i love a con artist i love a mistaken identity but i think you can find a lot

of that in the domestic has been thriller. So it kind of checks all my boxes. Yeah. Yeah. I was realizing because I was looking for some that I love and it's like

literally everything Ashley Audraine. Right. So I was like I could. Well, she's just too. But I was like looking because I have both of them and I was like, oh, like both of hers are fantastic versions of things that happen in cul-de-sacs. Yes.

Yeah. So do you have some of your favorites that you want to share with? Yeah. Well, you know, what I was trying to do is I was trying to like go through my book, Marie and see like, you know, I think people talk about the same books all the time. Right. Right. I think that happens so much on book talk, bookstagram. So I was trying to think of some books that I read recently because I have the memory of like a nat.

I can read a book. It can be my favorite book ever, my entire personality. and a month later, I'm like, what was that about? Yes. So I picked a couple books I read recently. I don't have you read this or heard this, but it's called Regrets Only. I have seen that cover. Okay, so I randomly picked this up.

And, okay, so PTA, a murder, smallish town outside of D.C. I believe it is. It's just women behaving badly and drinking a lot. So it is, it's basically was written for me. You're right. It is so good. The, I can't remember it's set in, I think it's outside of, yeah. So it's about a television writer who loses her job in LA and moves back to the small East Coast town she's from.

And then as she's trying to get her life together and like get back on her feet and all this stuff, she gets involved with this like PTA murder that happens. and I cannot tell you how fast I read through this book. Yeah. My first thought was, why have we not made a TV series out of this? Right. It sounds very funny. I mean, oh, it sounds like ideal. I'm not sure if you read pink glass houses last year.

Yes, yes, I did. Okay, so similar type of, you know, in that same, if you like this, you'll love this kind of thing. I had never heard of it before I picked up the book at a I think in a bookstore used bookstore and just thought I'll read it and highly recommend yeah I need to

I that one was I loved the cover of it so much it was so pretty yeah yeah it's so good I need to I need to pick it up or I've seen enough people texting about it or posting about it she wrote another book called Wish You Were Gone

I don't know anything about that. But yeah, I, yeah. So, yeah, I try to pick something that maybe, you know, people haven't read or. Right. Yeah. I like that. I, so since I talked about Ashley Audrain, I, this is one a lot of people talk about. But the push is one of my all-time favorites.

I, this was another one where like I couldn't stop thinking, I couldn't stop thinking about it when I wasn't reading it. The short version is basically this woman, Blythe, has her first child, and it's a girl, Violet. And she is just convinced that there's something wrong with her daughter. There's, like, ominous stuff going on. And her husband is like, I don't think so. Like, he basically dismisses it the whole time. I'm trying to make sure that I don't spoil what's not in the synopsis.

So then they have a second child a few years later. And she finally, like, connects with this kid. It, like, feels, it feels better than the relationship with her daughter. And then things start to get even worse with her daughter is the best way to say it. But the way that, the way that she, like, interspersed these like chapters with like also all of this like information about like motherhood and like kind of like multi-generational stories about it was so good it's just like such a unique book i like i don't really have too many comps for it like it's it's no i it's so unique i it's so unique and the thing that i found the most interesting for me is how much it made me care about the feelings of a mother, which I'm about as far removed from having those feelings as a reader could be. Right.

And that's what I thought was really cool about how Ashley wrote the book. Because it wasn't a book that the first 20 pages, I was still thinking, am I going to finish this? Am I going to like this? Am I going to? But then as you start seeing this, it develop and unravel and start seeing like kind of the 100-foot view. of what's happening and yeah yeah worst husband ever but yeah i think uh yes god i hate yes i hate he is i do think that's one of the worst husbands one of the absolute worst i have ever read in a book yes yeah it's bad it's really bad um how many do you have or how many do you pick

oh um i have not husbands i'm like i'm like husbands right now one um i i have i i can do as many as you like you how about that how many do you uh i like picked five so i have okay i have one two three four five sitting here nice nice yeah do you want to do your next one yeah i do um so my next one is okay i'm going to go with this so i really like this author this is a new i think if this is my third book of her I've read. Again, I said I love anything that happens on a cul-de-sac. Yes.

So, Aggie, Bloom, Thompson. Ooh, I've seen this cover. It's so good. First off, the cover is stunning. I like anything that's done in lavender and purple. I'm glad I wore it today. I know. Look at you.

You're all coordinated. So the synops. So you can always, I like, I'm one of the people who actually likes author endorsements on the back of a book. Because when I see that, you know, Robin Harding, you know, Ashley Winstead, Liv Constantine,

and, you know, B.A. Paris, have said, you'll love this book. I'm like, I will love this book. So they have Rachel Howell Hall and Liv Constantine did the blurbs for this book. So it's set in a cul-de-sac community,

I think outside of D.C. Or do I just think everything takes place outside of? Yeah. East Bethesda, so outside of D.C. These neighbors, they've known each other for a long time, there are things going on between neighbors that shouldn't be happening between

neighbors. I'll leave it at that. If that's a sport or not. But they have a party one night. And as our main female character is leaving, one of the husband says, you deserve to know. And then he's, so he's drunk. They get interrupted. She goes home.

The next morning she wakes up to the news that he is dead. Whoa. So, and it goes through this whole cast of characters. Was he killed? How did he, well, obviously he was killed? How did he die? Who were involved? Yes.

And the way that it unravels. And so as you as the reader, trying to unravel this mystery of how he died, you're getting all these other mysteries that are involved in this very, very desperate housewives, wisteria Lane, you know. There are people that are cheating. There are people that are lying. There are people who their finances aren't what you think they are. And so it starts unraveling all the other threads around this little tight-knit group of friends.

Yeah. Excellent ending. And I would say very few authors write domestic suspense thrillers like this author. I've read three books by her now. Oh, nice. And they've all been phenomenal. The other one was All the Dirty Secrets. and I can't remember the third one I read.

But she's fabulous. Her books are fabulous. They're fast-paced and really good quality writing, too. Yeah. She doesn't do a lot of, like, you know, I don't like when authors do twist just for the sake of doing a twist. I agree.

I think sometimes that's a little insulting to my intelligence. I know. Or, like, it's like, okay, well, that person's been there the whole time and all of a sudden they're, like, some maniacic that doesn't make any sense, you know? So, yeah, she, like, she stays true to the story she's telling you. Yeah.

Yeah. And I take that. I like that a lot. Yeah, I don't need a twist to, like, love it. I obviously, there are plenty that I do love. Yeah. But I, yeah, like, I still want it to, like, feel like the world is real. I mean, unless I'm kind of, like, sci-fi, I guess.

but and I and I believe there has to be some respect for the reader and I think a lot of times when these twists for the sake of a twist it just it throws all credibility out the window and you feel like okay like yeah didn't see that coming because that shouldn't have been coming right right I know I hate that I hate when I'm loving a book and then the end uh oh it's so I think crazy disappointing and then I don't know how to rate it because it'll be like 90% in this book. I was hooked. I was upset. And the last five pages, you did something stupid. And I'm just

like, why didn't you just leave when things were good? Yes. Yes. It always messes with me. Man, I am just coughing today. Yeah. Well, my other one also has some cheating going on and some, I mean,

of course it does. But I just talked about them earlier. E.G. Scott, it's how Elizabeth McCullough Keenan and Greg Wans wrote together under a pin name. But the woman inside is like it's wild. It is wild. Very unhinged. And this was also like this was the book that like Gare loved so much that he connected me with with them.

So that was also how I met them. But it's about these Rebecca and Paul who are married. And kind of neither of them thought that they would actually like fall in love and get married ever, but then they do. And so, but they've been married for 20 years now and they're, they all, they both have secrets going on at this point. This is in the synopsis. Paul is cheating on her. And the woman he's cheating on her with is like getting a little bit, a little bit worked up about the fact that he hasn't left his wife to be with her. And so then, but then also Rebecca is she has an opiate addiction that is like running her life into a bad spot. So when she finds out about what Paul has been doing, she starts plotting some revenge.

And that's all I'm going to say. but the ending, the ending is crazy. It is so crazy and so good. Okay. I saw this on your Instagram and I actually have it on my shelf. So I think that might be the next book I read. It is so good. I've only heard great things about it.

I saw Garrett post about it. I think that's going to be my next read because it seems like it's right up my alley. Right. Yeah, it's really good. I think you'll love it. You'll tell you. You won't be able to not DM me when you get to the end of it. Okay.

challenge accepted yes yeah they're so cool my next is not just a book but it's an author I just discovered recently

and I might be tardy to the party on this but I just recently I just made me a Kim Zolsiak for a second full disclosure the Real House of Atlanta

was on in my house early this morning and it's like season two where she's making this song. And the hicks are just so... The wigs and the... Yeah. The wigs and the bravado are out of this world. Yeah. But this author is A. R. Torre. Oh, yes. Who also writes under Alessandra Torre. So I've read three books by her in the last month, we'll say. And all of them are four-star or all four-star books. and she does such a good first off they're fast-paced short chapters um they're all set in a cul-de-sac outside of t-cd

um the most recent one i read was actually sat in l.A um but i like because she like if you like i'm a huge fan of robin harding's writing she's one of my absolute favorite authors um and probably gun to head i would say she's my favorite author and probably gunned to head i would say she's my favorite author Nice. A.R. Tori writes like her. Oh. And I just like that style of like the way they, you feel like you're in the scene.

You feel like you're watching. Not because you visualize it, because they're so good at creating the dialogue between the characters. So you almost feel like you're watching a movie. Like you're sitting in the scene with them. And her books are about deception, murder,

affairs huge fan and I think she's got quite a few books if I'm not mistaken and the new one coming on I believe next week if I'm not Oh really? That's neat nice Yeah I just saw it on Jordy's list of 100 books to read this summer

Yeah so A.R. Torre I think the people who like If people like stuff like Freedom McFadden but maybe want it to be elevated just a little bit not there's anything wrong for it. It's a light way to say.

say I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Because the last party that you're holding right now, I am obsessed. That book. It's so good. And it shouldn't be. Like, you know what I mean? It shouldn't be. It should make sense. Truly unlikable. But like, you're just so hooked. It is one of the most

unlikable characters I've ever read the book. Yeah. Like a despicable human being. And you should, like, there should be no question. Yeah. Yeah, it's so well done. And that's what I mean, the way she's able to make you like, unlikeable people or at least like their experience and like their journey in the book. Yeah. So well done.

Yeah. So well done. And I highly recommend the last affair. I want to read that one. That's the one in L.A., right? Yeah, I just finished that one last week. And so good. I read, what did I read?

I read, why can't I think of the one that I read? is the one with like is it the good lie it's like a chair on the cover good lie yeah yes i've read that one that one was crazy um and i read um the girl in 6a 6a i think that's what it is yeah yes that's more erotic right very erotic it was like yeah and i'm i was so torn on that one because i'm not like a prude about it either but it was so much mostly erotic and not as much plot. So I didn't end up loving as much as I thought I would, but it is good. It's good.

I just like that. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I read a book last week for a Instagram friend and he writes male, male romance books. First time I've ever read a romance book. Oh, really? It's essentially porn. I mean. I know.

I think that's how I felt where I was like, like like I mean I'm not approved at all. Like faster for me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, me, I'm no quitter. I finished it. But yeah, I was, uh, it opened up my eyes to what romance books are. I had zero idea. I thought they were like love letters to love. Right. Yeah. Yeah, they can be out there. They can be out. Yeah. Yeah. I was there were a couple times I was like,

I should I be reading this in public? I don't know. And it was what was like, that was the book that for me, like, also made me aware of the fact that, like, there's something about reading about extended sex that also was just, like, different than seeing it even in a movie or a TV show because she kept, like, calling it, like, my mound. And I was like, like, why can't I handle this word?

But I couldn't even know the word. I was just like, okay, well, I guess this isn't my vibe. The only romance I read, I have read, is Ashley Winston. So when I was shocked that you hadn't read it at all, I shouldn't have been. I've literally only read two romance books ever. I read one and it will probably be a while before I read another one. Yeah, it's that or... Again, well-written book.

I wish him well. It's just not my vibe. Like... You can't help it. Yeah. I don't know seven husbands of Evelyn Hugo's romance, but I don't think it is. I guess I've read that too. I mean, I think that has a little romance to it.

Yeah. That's a book that I shouldn't like either because I don't like historical fiction. I don't like, but I actually really enjoyed the book. Loved it so much. Well, I think it was also caught. I like being part of a moment. Zykeyes. Yeah.

Yeah. Zykeyes, much better word. Yeah. And I think that's probably a part of why I enjoy. the book so much too me too i think so um to your point about blurbs convincing you to read books though um this next one i uh saw it on net galley and then i saw that ashley i drain blurbed it and i was like okay so fits well with my other ones what did she say it's madwoman by chelsea beaker and she said ashley said the rare kind of book it's really small on my screen that lives in your bones emotional

at its best. And I was like, okay, sign me up. And it ended up being one of my favorites of all of last year. And I got to go see her in Chicago, too, actually. I got to see Chelsea talk about it, which was cool. But it is about a woman named Clove. And she basically has the life that she's like the best life. She has a great husband. She has two kids. She likes, she just, she loves her life. and has built her life mostly in reaction to wanting it to be nothing like her childhood. So, but some things start happening in her present life that basically shake up the memories of living in Waikiki with her mother and her father. And it says, I'm trying to keep it vague because I need to.

But it basically says she's forced to finally unravel the defining day of her life. How did she survive that day? And what will it take in the cycle of violence? So it's very emotionally driven. It's obviously about a traumatic childhood. And like learning to face those and kind of like step into who she is and like live her truth completely. So it's very, it is. It's very emotional.

It's also very suspenseful. And this is one of those rare. Like a lot of people, yeah, it has literary fiction even listed on good reads. Yeah. A lot of people would say like this is a literary thriller. And it's one of those rare ones that works for me. I was just talking to stuff about, I feel like 30% of literary thrillers work. But then the ones that do work, I love so much.

Work really well. Yeah. Yeah. It's just. I think they almost have to be written by women for a different thing. Definitely that. And the one thing I liked about this, I agree with you completely on this book. I didn't expect to like it, but I got it through either book of the month or Art Bark, one of my subscription services.

And I saw one of the people I follow on Instagram raved about it. I said, I love this book. I love this book. So I picked it up. And the thing that I really liked about it, and I don't think this is a spoiler, but, you know, it's part of that, like, human journey where you can't truly accept. and embrace who you are without embracing all the parts of what made you. Yes. And that's what I really enjoy, the message that resonated with me, that bad doesn't beget bad,

bad just begets experience. Right. Bad begets reaction. Bad begets, you know, self-soothing in these things that, you know, manifest in a different way for us. Yes. Really enjoyed that. And I thought it was done.

very well. It wasn't heavy-handed in that. No. Yeah, I thought, was that Chelsea's first book? Second or third? Okay. He has one called Godshot. And I think there's a like short story collection called Heartbroke. Okay. Yeah, I didn't, I wasn't familiar with those. But yeah, my thought was it's a phenomenal debut had it met her debut. I know. It's so good. And she's, she's very cool. It was very cool hearing her talk about it.

nice and how it related to her own experiences that's probably where some of the depth of it came from yeah well i like when you get that i i that's one of the things that where when you talk about litfic and thrillers meeting and working well it's when they're able to really actualize that human experience in it you know because so many things that we read in thrillers it's like that would never happen to me. I'm probably not going to come in contact with a cult. I'm probably not going to come in contact. Well, except for the big one in our country.

I was just saying. The red hat-cult. Yeah. But, you know, I like it when it resonates with something that you can relate to. And that's kind of where that crossroad of lit fic and thriller, I think, where it succeeds. Yeah. I completely agree. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm speaking of. cults. And I would venture to say this is probably in the lit fiction genre as well. But definitely a thriller. This is one of my absolute, absolute, absolute favorite authors. I think she's so underrated. I read three books by her. She has a new book coming out this year as well called This Side of Paradise, I think it's called. But it's Janelle Brown. Yes. Another beautiful cover. her books are typically said

I don't know she's from California but they're simply set in L.A. Yeah, she lives in Los Angeles. So this book is about two childhood actors their kids as actors on like a Nickelodeon show. They grow up one loves it, one doesn't.

They reach, I think they're early mid-teens and decide they're not doing it anymore. So as they lead the industry and start trying to find themselves in school, and education stuff. One goes a very traditional route, getting married, having kids, successful, beautiful house. The other goes into like drug addiction, self-harm. None of this is a spoiler. Yeah. So one day, one of the twins gets a call and says the other one is missing. And that's kind of the jump-off point of this novel. And so it's about this, you know, and I love, I love that. I love

like how it deals with things like addiction, how it deals with, you know, really putting a face to addiction that you're not bad. It's a, that, you know, and I think that's what a lot of addicts feel is I'm a bad person. I've heard everyone. I've done this. But this book really delves into, you know, seeing inside of that, what that looks like for them. And as they're trying to do the right thing and it also explores what made this woman the way she is. So super family-based. I don't think it's a spoiler. There's a cult element to it as well.

Yeah. Which I'm always here for. And if anyone I've read We Are Watching this year by Allison Galen. Oh, yeah. I haven't. I haven't. Really good. It's in my top three of the year as well.

Similar vibes to it. Storyline, nothing alike. But I like a book that, that Threat, rose in a cult and it's not about cults. Like Ashley Winston, the last housewife, last housewife. Yes. That's my favorite of hers. So good. Yeah, it's still technically number one for me. It is so good. Like I put that in my, that would be on my probably my top 10 dollar list as well. I have a lot of rage toward like perverting religions that way. Ooh, you disappeared. Oh, there you are.

I am. Yeah, I grew up in a very southern evangelical community as well. Yep. So, yeah, I cults are like a sweet spot for me. Yeah. I like seeing the inside of it. And rarely does it work out well for the cult in the books I read. So I'm, uh, exactly.

That was my other thing that I tend to love about thrillers. And Garrett and I sometimes, whatever, cross, go to go different. directions on this. Some of it is I do kind of want someone to overcome something in the book. Like it there is the fun feeling of like, especially like you're saying with like culture, systemic stuff, like feeling like someone got, I don't know why I'm having such bad hiccups, got past something really works for me. And he loves a bleak ending. And there are some endings that are bleakish and I still do end up loving them. But most of the time I kind of kind of want someone to overcome something.

And I think it feels good to read a book where like even though bad things are happening, you can overcome it. Yeah, because, you know, I think that's, I mean, isn't that what we all want in this world? I mean, to overcome the whatever obstacles and diversity we're dealing with and sometimes seeing that vicariously through these unreliable narrators. Yes. Yes. I'm just going to throw that word in.

I know. I know. We have to. I'm like you in 2013. Yes. Like this new term I learned, guys. Yeah, it is, I loved, I loved Albu. I really liked how she did the twin.

The twin stuff was fun. Even like the backstories of their childhoods. I am so sorry. I don't know why I'm yawning. And hiccuping so much. Probably related to asthma somehow. But I interviewed her about that one. And that was pretty cool.

I got to talk to her about that. one but my first the first one I read of hers is is it pretty little things or just pretty things. I think it's just pretty little things that's still my favorite of hers ever. It's my favorite of first. I love that book so much like so talking about I always say I'm to say chasing the hive chasing the dragon all of it. I still haven't like found one that like felt like that book did like I just because it's such a beautifully written like it the pros in it and just I the way she puts words together and like i like authors who have the alliteration who like i love that it's it's almost like a a poetic version of of a book and i think jenelle does that better than

almost anyone right i agree she does she's she's very cool um i just got that one on netflix or not netflix net galley too the new one or the new one oh yeah i did too yeah what is it probably again. Yeah. This side of paradise, I think it's called. Yes, that's what it is. The cover is very fascinating, very intrigued. That's pretty. Yeah. Her covers are always, though, gangbuster.

Oh, I know. She does have great covers. Yeah, she does. By next one, speaking of, I don't know how close it is to me. I don't think I have it over here. Had a special edition come out this year with sprayed pink edges. I know it was. I had to get it. Of course.

But local woman missing is my favorite of Mary Kuikas of all time. And it also fits the theme very well. Basically, this woman Shelby Tebow goes missing. And then another woman, Meredith and her six-year-old daughter vanish. Vanished around the same area that Shelby vanished from. And so then 11 years later, Delilah returns. The daughter returns. And everyone wants to know what happens to her.

And it says, but no one is prepared for what they'll find. And this is one where that is all you want to know. But basically it is. It's like someone comes back after being gone for so long and shows up. And we try to figure out what happened. It's so good. Yeah. I it's so good. It's so well done. It was actually the first thriller. I think that I read that

had a main gay character in it. Oh yeah. The lesbian couple or was there also a gay man? Okay. I couldn't remember. No, I think it's just the lesbian couple. But yeah, I thought that was, it's such a well-done book. And I have it. There's several Mary's books I haven't read. But the ones that I've read, I've enjoyed all of them. She's so talented. She's very talented. It's interesting because I really, I know nothing about her. Like, I, I know absolutely nothing about her as an author or person. I don't know much either, because she doesn't, I mean, I'm going to see her finally in conversation with Julie Clark. I can't remember if I said that while we were recording it, but I don't know much about her either. She's not super public facing. Sorry, what did you say? Yeah. Julie is in my Avengers as well. I think she is. I'm

obsessed with her. Yeah. I'm obsessed her as an author as a person. Like, I love everything about her. Lies I tell. That's my favorite of hers. And it also inspired our cover art. It's really close. Oh, that's cool. When you and I had like the half of our faces

and like, it was somewhat from that book. I love that. Yeah. It's so good. She's amazing. They're all amazing. Well, my last book is by, again, someone I don't hear people talk about a lot.

But I read four, five books by her. And they've all been really good. Super entertaining. But it's Darby Kane. Oh, yeah. What the wife knew. This is, I just read this one. I started out with pretty little wife, I think it's called.

That's what it's called? Yeah, pretty little wife. But this kind of takes on. so there's a let's see what's in the blurb I don't want to I don't want to spoil anything I get that yes I know yeah so

her husband is like a hero from like this national tragedy that happens and through the book you kind of find out was that really real and he's like a very popular

surgeon he's used this notoriety to really build his career. And as she starts finding out things about her husband's past, therein comes what the wife knew, the title. But I read the last engagement, the engagement party. I read all, I think I read all of her books. And I think they're all three and a half, four and a half stars. I mean, Gare loved what the wife knew. And I haven't read it yet, but I've seen a lot of good reviews about that. Yeah, I like it because it's easy to read super fast chapters. And I like books that sometimes when I'm reading, because I read so much, I like to be able to just kind of relax my brain and not overthink and not focus on trying to solve the mystery or.

And so a lot of what she builds up is not a who done it or what happened. The suspense is what is happening as it happens. And I like those type of books. It gives me the ability to check my brain out and be like, okay. okay, you don't have to solve this mystery. You don't have to, you know. Right. Yeah, you don't have to know when the cult started, Brian.

Yes. And why and who? And why, yeah. Mm-hmm. I need to, I definitely need to read that one for sure. You've expanded my TBR, which is what always happens when I do these. I love that. I love it.

Isn't that what books the gram is for? Yes. All the time. It's the best. Well, I had a lot of fun. I am so good. We got to do this. Yeah, well, I've been a long-time listener, first-time caller.

I love that. I love what you guys are doing over there. And I'm super thankful that you have me on. And I'm always here to talk about books. Yeah, we're going to have you back for some others.