Bookwild - Bleak Endings and Writing With Your BFF: Elizabeth Keenan and Greg Wands a.k.a E.G. Scott

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

This week, Gare and I chat with Elizabeth Keenan and Greg Wands, the writing duo behind the pseudonym E.G. Scott!  We get into our shared love for bleak endings, our thoughts on the direction of true crime docs and podcasts, what we've been reading and watching, and tons more!Follow us on Instagram:Gare @gareindeedreadsKate @thegirlwiththecookonthecouchE.G. Scott @e.g.scottwritesBooks We Talked AboutMy MurderThe TrapTheir Vicious GamesThe Quiet TenantBright Young Women TV Shows We Talked AboutThe PatientSiloPlatonic Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

And we are going to be discussing all things, chills, thrills, and kills. Kate and I are going to be talking about our favorite books, TV shows, and movies that are in the thriller or crime fiction genre, as well as some reading habits and other items related to how we met on Bookstagram that will fit in with this podcast. So thank you so much for joining us. And we hope that you have fun and get totally terrified. just actually yesterday finished listening to the episode you guys did with Holly Sutton, right? Oh, my God. And talking about that, like, that was such a great part of that,

just that discussion of like what that looks like, that the kind of, you know, the shambles that the characters are in at the end of it. And I love how she was talking about the idea of not really like pushing back against the idea of tying things up too neatly and making it kind of too artificially optimistic. You know, it's like that that's not how that stuff goes down. you know, people are with the destruction and the kind of like rubble in the wake of that. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's like nobody here's surprised that I love bleak. I was just saying. It's my jam. Like I love bleak and like nothing to anyone who's ever written one of

those books. But like I just like hate when there's like all of these traumatic things that happen to somebody throughout like three to 400 pages. And then there's like this little epilogue. and it's like the sun is shining, like my dog's not peeing on the floor anymore. My husband loves me again and like everything's fine. And I'm like, no, it's not. Like, I'm traumatized. You are. Yes.

Well, it's funny we're talking about this because I am currently writing the second to last chapter of our fourth book. For this, I don't know how this happened, but I have the penultimate chat. Well, it's the last chapter and the epilogue. And it's that moment where I'm like, oh, shit, I have to like tie everything. up. So I'm going back and I'm reading through like all of like just the crazy depraved shit that Greg and I have piled on these characters. And I'm like, we should just end our novels with someone like lying face down on the floor like humming to themselves and on a bit. Yes. How do these characters

even walk around upright and form sentences after all of the trauma and depravity? And you know, So to your point, Gary, like, I think you have to be really realistic, like, while still writing a satisfying ending about, like, what murder and mayhem does to, like, a human being. And it really fucks you up. I know I'm stating the obvious. But, oh, yeah. Yeah. We never have happy endings ever. No. Yeah. I mean, I think I was laying on the floor humming when I got to the end of the woman inside. So. process it. Gere was like, I didn't even know you finished it. I was like, I'm processing it. She like, she like slid something in our like text messages. And I was like, wait, you're done. Like, why don't you tell me? Like, this is like, like my goal in life is to literally make everybody listen to Beyonce and make everyone read the woman inside. Like that's like literally all I'm here for. And she was like, I didn't tell you that I finished because I'm fucking depressed right now. Like I will like when I'm ready to talk I will tell you and I was like my job here is done like this was the best.

I'm like I read it on Christmas Eve and she's like Christmas Eve. Yeah. It took me some time. Sorry Kate. Oh no. That's okay. It was it was worth it. The crazy part too was that I was watching.

I don't know if you watched The Patient with Steve Carrell. Oh yeah. But that ending, I literally like, I had like 20 pages left in your book. And then my husband wanted to finish watching that show. So we completely finished that show. And then I finished your book a couple hours later. And I was like, I'm a mess. Oh, God.

I'll Venmo you some money for your next therapy session. Yeah. That's a lot of trauma piled right on top of it. Yes, that I was sobbing at the end of the patient. So I just had to take. a day and then we talked about the book. Understandable. Yeah, that was a really powerful show. It went so many places. Yeah. So good. And it was the right ending, in my opinion. So. Yeah. I was, I was, sorry, not to interrupt. No, go for it. That was one of those shows. I don't know

if you guys ever have that kind of experience where you're nervous, like maybe like an episode out from the end where you're like, how are they like, you really want to make sure that they wrap it up. And that was so precarious the way they did it going in. How are they, like, are they going to, you know, pull this thing together and they did? It was great. Yeah, the writing on that show was amazing. Yeah. So good.

So good. I didn't watch it. Yeah, you couldn't get into it, but that's okay. All right. We'll stop talking about it then because that's no fun. No, it's fine. Listen, out of like anybody I know in my life, like you three are the ones that I could listen to talk all day about like whatever you wanted.

But I just didn't. I didn't watch it. Okay. Okay. If you do, though, you would love the bleakness of the ending. Yes. I do love bleak. But like, I am just, like, I'm glad that I have my shit together when it comes to, like, reading and what I like and, like, people aren't really, like, surprised. But when it comes to, like, watching things, it's like, I'm the weirdest fucking person in the entire world. Like, I will go from, like, euphoria to, like, insecure to, like, sex, education. Like, I think that's like the funniest show in the entire world. And then I will like continuously rewatch like promising young woman like depending on what my mood is. I watched that three times. Yes. Yeah. I can't. It's like my comfort watch and like sometimes

I'm watching it and like one of my friends may text me or like my mom's like, what are you watching? And I'm like promising a woman and she was like, that is one of the most depressing movies in the entire world. Like what are you doing? And I was like, I find comfort. in bleak things because it makes me see that the world's a little bleak. And then I'm like, that's not just me. Right. It's not just me. Right. You can cooom yourself in the bleakness. Yeah. I do. I do. I just like, I'm like shrouded in it, like a bad axe clone. It's just like me and like, like, balkting off of you. I know. It's just like, I'm like always like, recommending things to people and they're like, everything you like is like so depressing. And I'm

like, sometimes it just makes me feel better. I'm like, you know what I mean? Like my like some days, it's like, oh, like I don't want to go to the doctors today. But in like other days, it's like, oh, like, I'm going to have a hard time taking my dog outside because it's raining and he's a little shit. But then I'm like, you see something like euphoria or promising young woman and you're like, you know what? Not that bad. Yeah. I relate to that. I think I get a lot of like, needed perspective and like, you know, comfort in, I don't know, there's like empathy that happens when I watch other things that are difficult to read things that are difficult. It's a reminder that like the human experience is varied. And, you know, I like feeling when I watch and read

things. And for whatever reason, you know, I could self-diagnose in a lot of ways, like my psychology response to being afraid, being anxious, being, you know, wanting to solve the problem. Yeah. You know, I'm not a rom-com girl. No offense to the rom-comers, but it's just never done it for me. No. I'm with you. I'm there too.

I had, I talked to Amy Suter-Clark last week. And when I asked her what she likes about writing psychological thrillers, she was like, I really like exploring anger and fear. And I was like, I have found my people. Yes. Yes. I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I definitely think that those are like two, like, major emotions that everybody loves to read about.

Yeah. I love, like, I do love, like, some funny things. Like, what is at the beginning of big little lies when Madeline sees her daughter in the car with, like, the person that's texting and driving. And she, like, completely embarrasses herself by, like, falling on the road before she, like, goes to yell at her daughter. Like, that'll crack me up. Right. Yeah. But then I have to watch like the War of the Roses after to like bring me back to where I need to be.

Oh, that's a good one. Gare, have you, you mentioned sex education a couple minutes ago. Have you watched this? I think it's called it's like heart stopper. I think it's called. I've been seeing that all over TikTok. Yeah, me too. I am in my male male romance era and I'm like devouring all of these books and I need to watch it.

I've heard it's really good. Really, really good. that we just started a couple nights ago on the recommendation of a friend that we were out to dinner with. And we ripped through like three of them right away. It's really great. And it totally, it's a little bit like sex education. It's got a little bit of that kind of thing where it, you know, it's funny. Tugs on the heartstrings.

It's not like sappy. They keep it very grounded. And it feels realistic. But it's, you know, it's emotional. And it's like romantic. I mean, it's really, it's like kind of a beautiful show in that way. It's good. I think I think you would be it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to check it out. Like, I think my two favorite, like, romance movies would be, like, there's one called Weekend, which is, like,

a British movie. And, like, at the end, the first time I watched it, I was, like, I sobbed for, like, an hour. Like, and usually I'm just, like, one or two, like, one or two tears. And I, like, flick them off my cheek and I move on with my life. But, like, I, like, sobbed for, like, an hour. and I also like hysterically sob at call me by your name. Oh yeah, sure. Like when the father gives his speech and then like the very end of the movie, like waterworks. I could I could be like a lottery winner or like find like seven puppies to take home and having the best day ever and like still sob hysterically at the end of that movie. Oh yeah.

So maybe I'll cry at the end of Hardstopper. And then I'll be like, get it. I love that I know your spectrum of ultimate happiness now, though. Yes. Winning the lottery and seven puppies, six puppies? Seven or six? I feel like I'm going to be, I'm going to be, oh, my God, Melissa McCarthy and, like, bridesmaids. Oh, yes.

Where they have the free puppies, and I'm, like, driving. Like, I mean, I've only had my dog for two months, and I'm already, like, I want to get him a little sister. Oh, slippery slope. I know. I know. I've got two behind me. It might be time for you to have two. I know.

Have you been sort of quietly pressuring him behind the scenes on this? I actually haven't, but now I'm going to. Yeah. Here we go. Yeah. This is like something I thought of yesterday. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It is nice for them to have company. Definitely. I did have two pugs when I was younger. But I had like Otis who was like chill. bro, like do whatever you want. And then I had Phoebe, who was an emotional terrorist. And, like, she just, like, was, like, I swear to God, she was related to Satan. Like, anything she could do to fuck up your day, she would do it. But she was so cute. And I'm like, I don't know. Like,

if I get a second one, am I going to have that again and be like, you know what? Murphy's not that bad. Because right now he's kind of like a little, like, tiny shark. And then he's like a Sour Patch kid. So I'm like, you're still really cute, but like, you bite my hands. Like, I have, like, rips in some of my clothes. He hasn't, like, he hasn't, like, chewed out any books yet or done anything like that, but, like, you know, or he'll, like, whine at random times if he doesn't get attention. Right. Yeah. It's like, like, I'm raising. Dad life, man. I'm raising myself. That's what they say, right? Like, you like, kind of, like, the cycle repeats. Yeah, I know. I'm like, oh, my God.

I should apologize to my parents now. Like, he came to the emergency that when he was like, he like was crying and whining, he threw up. He was like shaking and I was like, there's something really wrong. He had a mosquito bite on the inside of his ear.

Oh. And they were like, he just has a really low pain threshold and he's very sensitive to heat. And I was like, oh my God, are he biologically related? And my mom was like, wow, now you know what it's right.

Oh, my gosh. Paternity test confirmed. I know, right? Like, oh, my God. This is what they say, right? Like, I'm glad that, like, dogs don't have, like, teenage years. Otherwise, I'd really be screwed. I mean, they do, but.

I don't think he'll be doing what I was doing. Yeah, probably. Probably not. Thank God. Thank God. Thank God. I don't have to deal with a teenage years of the early 20s. So what has everyone read or watched lately that, like, completely took them away?

I loved my murder. Have you guys read that? Just my murder? Yeah, my murder, which is Keeney Williams. And it is so good. And the cover is amazing. And it's, I won't spoil anything, but a woman. has come back from being murdered and she spends the book figuring out who murdered her and why.

So it is, you know, it reminded me of, and this is like a throwback and I'm going to age myself, but Christopher Pike wrote a book called Remember Me. And if you know, you know, but it's a book about a woman or a girl who gets killed. I think she gets pushed off a balcony and she comes back as a ghost and figures out who and her friend group murdered her. And it had that same kind of vibe. It's, you know, a very different style of book, but it is so good and it kind of straddles thriller and I want to say sci-fi just because there's some element of that. But, you know, die-hard sci-fi fans might argue with me on that, but that one I loved. So I highly recommend it. And then also I am halfway through, oh my God.

all the sinners bleed, which is wonderful. Yes. So good. I'm listening it to audio on audio, and it's a little rough, you know, so I'm taking him in small bites. Yeah. Yeah. I read it in two days.

My bleak little heart was like, oh, my God, like nothing happy. I devoured it. I feel like, I don't know. Like, he could write, like, anything, and I would be like, this is really hard for me to put down. Like there's something about like just, I've never even met him, but it's like almost like I can like hear his voice like reading it to me. And there's just something about the way that he tells the story is almost like very like poetic but like gritty and dark, obviously. Yeah.

Well, Greg, you spent some time with him. Didn't you at Thriller Fest? I actually, I had the pleasure of meeting him at Thriller Fest this year, which was wonderful. He's a lovely guy. I got to see him on a panel. You guys will actually appreciate this because I know there's some Silence of the Lambs fans in this house. or in this room. Yeah.

He was on a panel. This room is a house. This room is a house. Yeah. He was on a panel for homes. He was on a panel and he was talking about, I think it was maybe an audience question where somebody was asking about twists that kind of stuck with you over the years. And he was talking about the twist in Red Dragon.

And so at the end of it, I went up when he was signing. And I just said, oh, you know, I just have to share this with you. I was in your, you know, I attended the panel you were on. And I grew up down the street from Thomas Harris, you know, who wrote those books. And he would, and I said, I also, like you read the book when I was kind of probably too young to. And it blew my mind. I was like, as soon as you started talking about it on the panel, like my head went there. Like I was living that twist in my, in my head.

But he was great. I got to talk to him a couple times. He was just, you know, super humble, really, like, passionate about. you know, the craft and about books and very nice guy. So yeah, I was, I've been loving his books. I was very happy to see it on Obama's summer reading list. Yes. Me too. Yeah. I do have that. That was great. He curates that. Obama curates up with this so well every year. I know. He does. Oh. Yes. So yeah. He's amazing. Yeah, I will, I will kind of piggyback off of Liz's mention of that book. And then I'll add also quiet tenant. I mean, I read it a

I'm going to go. But it's been like it's so great. So good. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Could not put it down. Neither us could. Incredible. Incredible. I like, oh, go ahead. No. And I was going to say also I actually got to meet her briefly at Thriller Fest. And then I went a few weeks after that attended her lunch party at a mysterious bookshop downtown and got to talk to her briefly afterwards. She's also lovely. And, then you know you're reminded after you read that book and how beautifully written it is and how gorgeous and engaging that prose is you're reminded that like english is her second language i know yeah that's what blew my mind wild oh my gosh yeah yeah yeah that's insane

it's insane completely insane yeah and like people just get words no matter what language it is yeah absolutely and she does i mean that it's so god the the rhythm of her writing and the imagery and everything. It's just so beautiful. So that's one that's been, you know, a recent read that stuff and stuff with me, that one. I told her, I like had been DMing her because you guys know how I am when I'm like, oh my God, I love your book. But like, I was DMing her and I was like, the thing that I love about that book is how if you like read through it and you only read one character's perspective, like from start to finish, they, all kind of feel like they are a different genre.

Like the daughter is like a very coming of age. Like she doesn't really like know very much. Like, you know, then there's the thriller aspect of the woman being held captive. And then the third woman almost like when I was reading it, I was like she like literally thinks she's in a romcom. Yes. No, like they're like, you know, I work in a restaurant. Single hot guy comes in.

He's a dad. He seems like really down to earth. Like I'm going to try to get to. know him and then he's like flirting back with me and it's like she like literally thinks she's in like an emily henry book wow and like that's the thing that like really disturbed me about that one was how like good she did with like differentiating all three of those voices and like kind of like mending together like three different genres yeah and the rom-com that's i i hadn't broken it down that way but the rom-com

aspect that you're talking about that's a great narrative device for a book like that because you realize, right, that like someone who's living that, you know, that, that experience without the knowledge of who this guy really is, is going to approach it like a rom-com. Yeah. The way she looks at it's like, yeah, this is like the dream boat that she's, you know, has the crush. It's like she doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes. So that that makes sense. Like, I don't know that thriller writers would, you know, normally think of that approach,

but it's like, it is the perfect approach, you know. Yeah. And it like solidifies the believability. that like he's that likable in most situations. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So good. Yeah. So, Kate, what of you like? So I was, well,

I just finished the trap. And, oh, can't even talk about it too much because I don't even want to spoil anything. But so good and so bleak. It's so sad at the end. So Garrett and I were talking about that one forever. But the other one I was thinking that I read kind of recently was their vicious games by Joelle Wellington.

And it is, it's classified as young adult, but it's someone who's just graduated their senior year of high school. So it's like it feels a little bit more adult than young adult is what I'm trying to say because that's what almost kept me from reading it. But it's about a black girl who's been going to a prep school with a bunch of white, wealthy children or families, basically. And a popular girl at school gets mad at her and manages to, like, get her acceptance to Yale and, like, some of the colleges she's really excited about. She gets it revoked over something really petty. but it's all this main character is wanted is like the ability to go to school there and like everything that can come from that so every year the family who founded the school does something called the finish that's what it's they do the finish and so 12 or 13 girls get to compete in these

different challenges to have the family's backing so it's like it would be her way to get back into the school that she really wanted to go to. So she's always thought it was like an academic and kind of physical challenge, but she gets there and finds out that there's something different this year. And basically she has to figure out how to survive with the new set of rules. So there's a lot of like social and class commentary and race commentary. It's very good. It's really, really fun. That sounds interesting timing-wise, too, just with all the discussion now about, like, legacy admissions and a lot of the, you know, the Ives and stuff.

That's interesting how it lines up. It is really, really good. I feel like anyone who loves Amina Oktar the way I do would love that one. And actually, I saw Amina post about it. So you like her books. You'd probably like this one. Okay. Put that on the list.

Yeah. That sounds really good. Yeah. I love like a campus setting, too. yes yeah yeah and it's just it's like i will also say i almost don't know how much you would love it which i've already told you that gear but there are it they it is there are some extremely pretentious and preppy characters for the sake of exact not even exaggerating i mean there really are people like that but um it was reminding me of the characters in the most recent season of you

which i know you didn't love the characters as much so all Also, if anyone really likes those characters and seeing that type of person kind of like made fun of, also the vibe of their vicious games. Okay. All right. Yeah, I did not like the characters in the new season of you at all. I didn't finish it because of that. Really? I just stopped watching.

There you go. I didn't even like the love interest. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe I wasn't in the right headspace, but it just felt like the writing wasn't the same, and the characters were like very caricature. I don't know. Maybe I have to go back. Is it season four? Is that the current book? I think so. Yes. Yeah. You might be right. A lot of times with series like that, usually around like the fourth season, you get a new like writing staff on. They kind of, you know, sometimes you can see a different. type of like tone to it. Yeah. It does have a totally different tone than the previous ones. Okay. Yeah. I had read that pen, sorry, I go for it. That's awesome. I actually changed the terms of his kind of what he was willing to do on camera. And I don't want to

say that the reason I like the show so much was because of all of the gratuitous sex. But it was interesting. I mean, I really support any actor who wants to change balance. you know, based on their current life. And it sounds like he's married and it didn't feel like that was, you know, comfortable for him and where he is in his life. But I did wonder if that choice, you know, created friction with the writers. And adapting his character to taking out the kind of, like, steamy love interest, you know, sexual side of him, um, ended up depleting other aspects of his character. It just seemed like he wasn't as complex in this season. I do agree with that.

So I don't know. That's just, you know, my thin hypothesis. No, I think you're kind of right, because I think we even talked about that around the time that it came out where I was like, it does feel totally different. And he did change his whatever, his contract. I almost feel like, though, there's like so many actors who have like nudity clauses that they do like body doubles for. or steamy scenes. So, like, that could have also been an option as well. You know, but I definitely agree with you, too.

It's kind of like having a show about a character who is, like, a serial killer and a stalker who is just, like, looking for love and, like, once love and, you know, like, affection in all forms like that. Like, it kind of makes sense to have, like, there be some, like, sex scenes in it. Nothing shocks me after before. Yeah. I mean, that was such a sexually driven motive. That was such a part of his MO.

And that was, it definitely changed it. But yeah. I haven't controversially read those books. So I don't know how true to the, you know, adaptation wise. Maybe there's part of that too, like having not read the books. This season wasn't even based on the books. Okay. So that's a part of it too.

Yeah. The fourth one is in Massachusetts. The book. Yeah, the fourth books in Massachusetts. And I really liked it. I really like the books. I mean, you know, I think that if you watch the first season of the show and you read the first book, you're like, they're doing really well with like the voice of Carolyn Kepniz. But the books just, in my opinion, like, stay like great throughout the series.

She's very like, like snarky. And I love that. Yes. I love like a little like snark in writing. But I also love it when you can tell that like the author is a little snarky too. You know, like they have like a good like sense of like sarcasm and like sassiness. Yeah. My book would be so bitchy if I wrote one. It will be. It would be so bitchy. Yeah. It would be like Yeah. Be like 10% 10% murder and like 90% sarcasm.

Shade. Be like on bar. There's a tag line right there. You've got to say. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. What have you read that you love?

Me? Yep. You're the only one left. I am never going to forget bright young women by Jessica Noel. Ooh, I haven't read that yet. For somebody who loves Bleak and for someone who, like, loves, like, crime fiction, true crime,

I have sat with this book for probably, like, a month, month and a half now. And I keep going back to it and, like, remembering things that, like, made my heart. Like, there were times that I was, like, I need to step away for a second. Like, I'm, like, not feeling well reading this because it's very, like, accurate in how you can imagine people are feeling in this like situation and it is very like emotionally traumatizing throughout the entire thing. Is it a serial story? It's loosely based off Ted Bundy. Okay. But it's told from like the girls who survived the sorority that he attacked right before he was arrested. Um, so I thought that was very interesting too, to take that story and tell it from that perspective.

of, you know, Ted Bundy, but, like, right before he is arrested because it's kind of like, that was obviously, like, his, like, one crime that people were like, holy shit. Like, he's escalating to, like, an unreasonable amount of, like, time here. And it was just she, like, absolutely crushed it. I can't imagine how, like, it seemed like she did so much research for it. Like, she went to Tallahassee. to research for the book. And she must have read a ton of stuff because there was so much in it that I was like,

like, this has to be, this has to be accurate based on like the things that she was describing and the things that were happening. And it was just like beautifully written, but like it emotionally fucked me up for like a while. Sure. Which I love. I'm excited for that. I also love, it sounds like the way you're describing it. as along the lines of this sort of recent movement over the last few years in serial killer fiction

with these really, really beautiful books well written that center the victims and sort of push the serial killer more to the margins of the story. I mean, like Quiet Tenant, we already talked about notes on an execution, real easy. There's like so many great ones that just do it so well. And it's such a high wire act to do that, you know, to write something, not sensationalize and do that. And all of those authors have just done like a magnificent job with that kind of subject matter and that approach. That's one of my favorite things to talk about on here. Yes. Like I am obsessed.

We were just talking about it this week. Yeah. Like I am obsessed with all of these authors who are like, you know what? Like fuck this narrative of having, you know, everybody knows. knows who the Zodiac killer is. Everyone knows who Ted Bundy is, but like, name one of his victims. Like, nobody could do it. So like the fact that, you know, these authors are taking these stories and I especially love, I don't even remember the name of it. But there was one that they didn't even name the killer. Like he did not have a name. He didn't have like any identifying features.

And there was nothing about his backstory, his life, like his motive. There was nothing about that. like it was all the victims. Yeah. And it's just, another one I love is Please See Us by Caitlin Mullen. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard you talk about that one. I have not read that yet either.

She has these like chapters throughout the story. And it's like Jane Doe number one, Jane Doe number two. And it like gives you a backstory on like these women, not just like how they ended up in this position, but like what they were like growing up, like what their families were like, like the people that are missing them and it was just so like heartbreaking but like also a really

really good like reminder that you know even if you're a true crime fan you know even if you like devour some of these stories that there's like so much that is left behind even when someone's caught and someone's convicted and you know justice is served depending on your opinion of it but um did you guys watch last call Have you seen that yet? I don't feel like I did, but I... I'm thinking of it because it's a really good example. It's a mini-series.

Okay. But it honors the victims and gives background of the victims of the serial killer who was killing gay men in New York City in the 90s. And it's fairly recent. It's on Max. And, you know, it was... It happened when I was in high school. so I was in New Jersey and I was like aware that this was happening.

But, you know, like most true crime, especially covered in the 90s, you know, it was very focused on the MO of the killer. And this is also a very, you know, undercovered case, you know, because of the victim pool. And they talk about that a lot in the documentary. But it is so beautifully done and effectively done that, you know, the filmmaker actually took the time to go. and talk to these families, you know, what is it 20, almost 30 years later. And you get more of like a full spectrum experience of like what was happening during the times, you know, in the West Village of New York where Greg and I both lived for a really long time, you know, during this panic of this,

you know, they were calling him the last call killer. This was a serial killer that was picking up men in, you know, gay bars and killing them and dismembering them and scattering them around the tri-state area. And, you know, because of the gruesomeness of the crimes, people couldn't get enough of reading about that aspect, but no one was talking about who these men actually were. And I thought it was a really great example of, you know, filmmaking and what you guys are talking about in, you know, novels where the victims are affront. And the killer is kind of, you know, incidental. And you really get, like a lot more, you know, humanity, I think, when you're talking about the people that were involved. And I think there's different kinds of like true crime. Within true crime, I think there's

a lot of different ways to tell those stories. And I personally am so glad that there's more of these stories being told from the perspective of the victims because so much of them, not just told from the point of view of the, you know, the perpetrators, but also the police. And one of the parts of this series that was really great is it was talking about how much the police were, you know, homophobic and racist. Yeah. And how that affected these cases being solved. And I think that's important to talk about, too.

So I read the book. Oh, you did. Okay. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I did read the book. It took me like a month to get through. I'm sure. And it's a very short book, but it was just, it's really, like, hard to read nonfiction for me when it comes to that. It's like that and highway of tears by Jessica McDiarmine. That was, like, heart wrenching. You know, I mean, I live, like, very close to the reservation in New York. And it's, like, all of the things that people, like, say about, like, human trafficking and sex trafficking and, like, all of the, like, warnings about.

like people at Walmart, people at Target, like it's just insane what like is happening to like the indigenous community and it's nuts. It's nuts. Especially like being like indigenous myself. Like it's, you know, like I have so many friends that live on like the Canadian side or the U.S. side and it's just like terrifying what like people are like sharing on social media about like how to be careful or like to make sure you like check for different things in your car you know like your door handle and stuff like that it's like horrifying but jesska dearman did a very good um true crime book on the highway of tears i don't read it i definitely make it notes over here folks that's me i'm always like typing on the other screen yeah in that sort of same name i'm looking

forward to Vanessa Lilly's next book, Blood Sister. It's going to be, because I know she tackles a lot of that in that plot. Yes. Yeah, that's going to be really good. I have a copy of it. But I'm like, I hate summer so much. I don't like being warm. I don't like being hot. Like I just, I need it to be like a little chili with like something pumpkin spice in my hand. And then I can get into like the stuff that I've really been looking forward to. Yeah. I can hear that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, and I want to read that so bad. So bad. I requested it.

We'll see. It sounds so good. Yeah. So it really does. There's a lot coming out this fall that's going to be good. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for book four.

I was just about to say the same thing. I was just about to say we're never going to finish it because I have too many points to read. We're sabotaging them. I am so patient, but like every time I finish a book by you guys, I get so pissed at myself because I fly through them so quickly. And then I'm like, the waiting game. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. As Liz mentioned, I mean, we are, you know, a chapter and a epilogue away. Yeah. We will be putting it in. The one, the one, I'll just throw this out here because it seems like the one where we are starting to talk about, you know, release dates and things like that. And it seems like the kind of rub that's going on is next year fall because of the election. It's probably going to be pretty light in terms of fiction titles.

I think what the houses tend to do is they push a lot of the nonfiction titles that people are interested in leading up to the election. So a lot of the political stuff, you know, the Bob Woodward stuff like that. So it may be that we get bumped a little bit past election season on this one. So I hate to tell you you may have to wait an extra couple of months, but we'll see how it shapes out. But we're very excited. We've been have a blast with this thing. I'll talk to them. Okay.

I'll talk to them. You wield some influence around here. I will try. I will do anything. I will have like my signs made, T-shirts, like, let book four out into the wild. Give it to gear. Throw a hashtag in the main. mix. Get a hashtag involved and it's, you know, the hashtag is just give it to gear. Like,

I will take care of the rest of your fans, but I've been like, yeah, give it to get. Listen, I've been like standing since like art came out of the woman inside. Yeah. Well, and we certainly appreciate that. I will say for this book, there are a couple of Easter eggs that that you'll appreciate in this. Yeah. I love to. I want to know, like, how you guys write together and like how like did you guys just were you guys friends before it were you like wow we could write we could write together and then like how do you like divide up what you do yeah do you want to kick it off crack or yeah we hopefully this hopefully the baton passing this answer will be as seamless as our writing we so yes so Liz and I actually met we don't

each other for 25 years plus million. Yeah. We met the first week of freshman year of college in New York. We were going to Minnesota Manhattan. We actually, at the time, we're both going for theater. And at a theater company shortly after we got out of school, but we also, I think both of us were getting very, very interested in writing as well. I know she and I have talked about this in various forms.

I know for me it was kind of, there was a point when I realized that the part of the theater aspect that I actually enjoyed was more of the story aspect and not really the performance aspect. And so, you know, we got out of school. We were friends, had been friends since then. We also, part of the reason I think that our friendships really took off is because we come from sort of similar family backgrounds. So I think we had a shorthand the way you do with people who, you know, you understand where they came from, how they grew up, what their kind of dynamics were. And it probably, I would say, in addition, but also probably because of that, we also were drawn to a lot of the same stuff. You know, we both liked horror and, you know, thriller stuff, psychological suspense. That kind of stuff was very much in our wheelhouse.

And I think we kind of, you know, probably sense that about one another. So we grew up watching a lot of the same stuff, reading a lot of the same stuff. And that helps later on when we started writing together because then we have the shorthand. You can see like, oh, what if we use like, maybe we do like a little twist on, you know, that story part from this book, you know, and we could kind of understand that. And so, you know, from there, I mean, we started in, we have been over the years in writing groups together. We've been early readers of each other's stuff, editors and, you know, big kind of supporters.

And we would see each other. I think we figured out up until a couple years ago, we never lived more than about a mile away from one another. So we would see each, you know, we'd go to the movies, we'd go get a drink, we'd go out to dinner, we'd like be talking about what we were reading, what we were watching, and then it kind of grew from there. And I'll pass the baton off to my partner right now. Yeah, I mean, I think similarly to your guys' friendship, it was so much fueled by being like, oh my God, I've read this thing or I saw this thing and I need to talk about it. You know, so I think conversation is a major tenant of our friendship.

And we also, because we were actors together, we did a lot of improv and we had this kind of like bootstrapping theater company that like, you know, anything could go wrong and it did. And you just kind of like went with it. It predisposed us to be able to like do the back and forth style that we write in. And then, you know, I worked in book publishing for 20 years. So I was kind of on the other side of the desk. And I was a writer like in the closet as I was publishing. And I got to the point where, you know, somehow two decades had passed. And I had a bunch of unwritten, unfinished novels. And a lot of short stories and some plays. But I just couldn't finish anything. Like, And part of it was, is I just didn't have accountability to anyone but myself. And I had so much imposter syndrome. I'm like, why is no one's going to want to read my stuff?

You know, and then here's Greg who like, not only did he want to read my stuff, but he was very encouraging. And, you know, we were writing similar material. So the woman inside was really born out of, we both had like a really, really difficult year, separately, but we're very supportive of each other. I went through a really kind of life-changing, you know, breakup where the person I was with was, like, not the person I thought they were at all. Greg lost his dad to cancer. So very different situations, but we were both grappling with, you know, we were talking about before about anger and fear.

You know, we were dealing with a lot of that and a lot of, you know, rage and excuse me, so many things out of our control that, you know, you know, we kind of kept having similar conversations about like, how do you channel this? Like, how do you create your own outcomes in like a world where there is so much out of control? And we were at a bar one night talking about, you know, writing and our lives. And I think I said, I want to fucking kill someone. And Greg said, let's do it. And I was like, yeah. And we kind of like came up with this idea for the breakdown of a marriage. You know, like what happens when two people are married and they just stop communicating

to the point where like they just both get it so wrong what the other person is up to and it has like deadly results. And I went home and I wrote the first chapter from the point of view of Rebecca. And that's right. Yes. four books later all the character names. And I sent it to Greg and he responded to that email in the voice of Paul with Paul's chapter. And that started our, you know, baton passing.

And it really is. It was like Babali. So we would write back and forth and the story started to build. And, you know, back then it wasn't like, okay, we're going to write this and get published. And then we're going to write three more books together or two. 10 more books together. It was like, what the fuck is he going to write next? That's going to make me stare at the computer screen and like curse him and and like fire all my neurons to be like, what can I write next? That is just absolutely going to top this. So it became this like pissing

contest. And I always knew when it was like a job well done when he would like text me, like you can go fuck yourself or like you're trying to elicit the biggest response and that was how we wrote the woman inside you know we just went back and forth and this story emerged and it was nuts and the characters are completely deplorable and flawed but they came out of like anger and rage so that that was how the first one went so then we kind of with with each book that thereafter we would refine based on, you know, like what the circumstances needed. So with our second book, we needed to have an outline because then we had a deadline. But we still did back and forth alternating perspectives. And then, yeah, for the third one, we wrote that at the height of the

pandemic. So it was the first time in our entire friendship and certainly in our writing relationship that we couldn't be in the same room. And that was weird, but it was really powerful because it was an escape hatch of like the complete craziness of that time. Yeah. And then this book, we're in different states. It's the first time in our lives that we've lived far apart from each other. But we do Zooms once a week and we talk each other's chapters. So we're making it work. And you'll be, And you'll be relieved to hear that the, you know, texts back and forth have not abated. I believe the last chapter that Liz sent me was followed by me texting her. This is the time when I go ahead and tell you to fuck right off.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So that still, that still is the engine that fuels us, is the kind of throwing curveballs at each other and just seeing, you know, what we can kind of elicit response to us from the other. And there's a lot of meme action. Like if we have good, we have some like memes that, you know, are critical and like affirming that you've done a good chapter. So I think memes are like the pinnacle of communication. Yeah.

So you guys, I love that. And it would so you get it reminds me of like, I don't know if any of you did this, but like when you're in an elementary school, like sometimes you do that where like someone writes a paragraph and then you just pass it back. and forth. That was something I did like when I was really young and I had not thought about that like challenge or game or whatever in the longest time until you said that and my mind is just like blown. I'm like what could happen with that kind of dynamic. Well, we know what happens with that dynamic. But my mind's just blown. I think that is so cool. Thank you. Yeah. And it's almost like I love how

with the woman inside, it was almost like you had like the friendship version of like Paul and Rebecca because you were like, what the fuck is he going to do next? And then like Greg's like, Greg's like, is she going to fuck up my weekend? Like what's going to happen? And she did often. Now, the kind of delicious irony, I'm probably misusing irony. I'm always, you know, paranoid that I'm just ruining that definition. Me too. Actually, I've never heard anyone else say that. Nobody really knows what it means. Nobody knows. I know.

I mean, the song, ironic, isn't actually ironic. You know what I mean? Right. The things that you talked about in the song aren't actually irony. I mean, so anyway, but the, the, and Liz and I actually talked about that afterwards, sort of in hindsight, we realized that we were writing this book about these people in a relationship where the communication is just crumbling and breaking down, but we're writing it together.

So our communication had to be very, very, like, locked in for that whole process and continues to have to be. but you're right too. It's like we kind of had the friendship version of that. I hadn't thought about it that way, but it's great. Yeah. So it's like it's both things. It's both we have to be very, very locked in and also you're right. It's like it's sort of a bit of a mirror of what our, you know, friendship has been. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. And it's kind of like there's there's so many like horrifying things that can happen in a relationship that people don't think about. You know, like miscommunication or just being like fuck it. Like I give up. Like he can do whatever he wants. wants or she can do whatever she wants. And there's always that like extreme fear where I think

like a relationship gets very dangerous where you have one person who's like, how do you get rid of someone who like just won't fuck off? And like how do you hold on to someone who's telling you to fuck off? Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Like that's like my favorite like toxic thing and like a relationship. And it's and it's such a compelling story. you know, aspect of that. Yeah. Just those sort of eccentricities of human nature are so compelling, you know, as it's...

Yeah. It's like... Yeah, because, like, I was talking to somebody, I mean, this was like years ago, but I was talking to someone about like a previous relationship I had been in, and they were like, this guy sounds great, like, what, like,

where did it go wrong? Like, was he like a douchebag or something? And I was like, no, it's just that like, I think that there's also like this really scary thing that can happen where you, like, fall for somebody. And then all of a sudden, like, you can just quickly, like, unfall in love with them as quickly as you can fall. Like, little things they do start to drive you nuts. And, like, they don't give a shit because they're, like, hook, line and sinker. And then you're just like, all right, see you later. But, like, it's just like there's, like, so many, like, weird and scary things that can happen in a

relationship that can turn it toxic. And it definitely makes up for. like great stories like the ones that you guys tell. Thank you. I agree. With that fascinating. Yeah. Of like stories being about ordinary people, ordinary people too, where it's like the added allure is probably like, oh no, this could kind of happen to me if I didn't pay attention. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think the thing is too is like sometimes people get like stagnant. You know, like they just don't think that it's like, oh, like this person does this or might act a certain way and like it drives you nuts. But then like you're just like, do I just like take this with how it is and like avoid an argument or avoid like them coming back and telling me something that I do that drives them nuts or pisses them off? And like it just kind of like snowballs from there.

But yeah, I've always found that to be very interesting about your stories of how they do start with like seemingly ordinary people. who just have these relationships that change or falter. And like the way that you tell it is like, like Kate said, like, oh, fuck, this could happen to me. You know, not me because anybody who dated me would be, like, I haven't made. So wonderful and kind, right? Lucky.

Jacob is in for a real treat. Yeah. Or Jake Jellon Hall. I'm realizing Jake Jellon Hall is probably more. closer my age bracket. I mean, he's very worthy of dating, so I think that's okay. Yeah, I guess I would date Jake. I was going to say, are we like pretending like he's like, he gave him a chance? Yeah, I'll give him a shot. No, no, you know, Derek, play a cool man, sexy indifference. I guess so. I guess so. I used to see him around our old neighborhood. He would be at three lives.

Oh, wow. I used to hear the story. What's that? I used to hear the story. too about there was a soul cycle that he used to go to fairly regularly. But when it would sell out because people heard he was in it. It was always the same class at the same time, the same day of the week. And that became the thing right. So it just the class was just constantly ramped because they knew Jillinghall was in the mix. Oh my God. I remember you telling me this when I met you guys in Vermont. Oh, yes. Because I picked Jake Jellenhall for Paul. That's right. Oh, yeah. Yes, because Paul, I met you guys and I was like, you know, like, well, let's be honest. Like, when I met them in Vermont, I was like drinking red wine when it was like 90 degrees outside. And so all the secrets were spilled,

but I was like, I had a, I had a crush on Paul. Like I, like, that was like my thing with like reading the woman inside because I was like, I would definitely date Paul. I definitely see where Rebecca's coming from. And I'm also realizing that like, I'm a little. bit of a Sheila. I wondered if that's where this was. Yeah. Yeah. It was like the perfect work for me.

But I was, yes, I did. I had like a book crush on Paul. Like everybody's like falling in love with like Emily Henry characters. And I was like, I think the first fictional male I would date that I read was Paul. Ooh.

That's fascinating. Yeah. I was like, I was like, I don't like. I don't think he's that bad. But then like when I got to like Rebecca, I was like, I'd be kind of pissed too, but I'm more petty. You know, like, I'd be like, oh, there's a little olive oil on the top stair, Paul, but like learn your lesson.

We should do a dating profile for you that has all of the things you're looking for and someone is actually a character description of Paul. And see what. Did you imagine? And it's like, it's really like Jake Gyllenhaal and Jacob O'Lauri just like fighting to the death for me. Yes. What a dream. That would be like ultimately what I'm actually kind of glad that I live in like a more remote area because like my friends are always like if there were like an active serial killer or like the most like toxic man in the entire world.

He would come to you. He would be like I would be like this I met this guy and he's so nice. I don't know why he's single. We were talking last week about how because I'm the. same way like i don't i don't read rom-coms only ashley winsteads um just because she's that great but um it it's in like thrillers there is a book we were both read it was night we'll find you where one of the characters like it's like oh he could be extremely dangerous or he could just be like spiky on the outside and like nice on the inside but like that's the tension through the whole book and I was texting Garrett and I was like it is really alarming how much I'm attracted

to fictional dangerous men knowing what I know this does not make sense and he was like no there's nothing wrong with it. I was talking to um yeah I know right Arato this morning and she was saying the same thing about like how it's just fun to like have pull for a bad guy in a book and so I was telling her that story and she's like that's why it's fictional she's like you You can just pretend. You can have fun with something that you wouldn't do in real life. And I was like, thank God you just made me feel better. No, it's good. It could be the solve to like all of the men and women who are attracted to like malignant narcissist naturally. I relate to that in a different time in my life. Like the proverbial like bad boy, that's just like, you know, sociopath. That was just like

before we had the language for it. And that's like a very real thing. Like you attract. I think when you're like a highly sensitive or empathic person attract the villains. So it's much better if you can do it in the safety of your own home. Yes. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I think I was like telling Kate like a while ago, I was like, you know, like I, to know one, to no one's surprise ever, I can be a little snarky. And like I don't want somebody who's going to like, cower and be like afraid of that and just like give me what I need somebody who's going to like push back a little bit. But that's why I'm like, this is concerning when I'm attracted to these characters in this book because they are like literally capable of murder.

So like if I'm in a relationship and I'm being a little snarky and he's like kind of like pushing back, I don't want him to like push me back like off a bridge. Right. Yeah. I feel like this is the beginning of the four of us should do a PSA, like record one of those the more you know things. Yeah. Forging people to, you know, get their, get this out cathartically with.

the book as opposed to real life relationships. Yeah, I think you're right. Well, 30 second app spot. Yes. Yeah. I don't know about all of you, but one of the biggest things that drives me to read, you know, true crime and watch it and read thrillers and horror and watch both of those genres is it's like fact finding, you know?

It's like preparation. I'm not just watching these things because I have some like perverse pleasure out of watching people like suffer or or be in pain. It's like there's a part of my mind that's like, okay, I'm watching this and one part is like really enjoying it and the other is like, okay, this is good to know because I'm going to know if this happens to me. You know, I'm watching Silence of the Lambs repeatedly because it's like instructional, you know, like I will never help someone move a couch into a van. It's never going to happen. No. And I wouldn't necessarily really have known that if I hadn't watched that movie at a formative age.

So. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with you. I've actually been like rewatching some of my like favorite thrillers in horror movies and talking to them with my friend Shelley. And I'm like, you know, like when I think about it, like some of these movies that I grew up like loving are actually like really like I think now as an adult, like I know what you did last summer is probably one of the saddest movies in the entire world. If you think about it on like a psychological level and like looking back on that, I'm like, there's like a lot of explanation as to like why I enjoy bleak things, why I haven't been murdered yet. And also like why I love

a bad boy. I think you're right. Yeah. I mean, ski all rich. Ryan Philippine, I know what you did last summer was like the biggest asshole ever. And I'm still like there's something there that I just know that if he survived the movie, he would have grown up to be a nice man. And married you. And married me. Yeah. Yeah. She's also very hot.

That helped. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody gets angry staring at Ryan Philippi. Yeah. Running from a deranged fisherman. It has to be that exact scenario.

That exact scenario. But like, it's not like there's not like there's not. like total hope lost because I will say like whenever I rewatch the War of the Roses, like I fully, fully hate Oliver. Yeah. With all of, I'm like team Barbara and I don't know if it's because like, I don't know if it's because they date men, but I just know that I'm team Barbara. And like if anybody watches the War of the Roses and they're like, team Oliver.

then like that's that would be my step where I'd be like oh I don't think this is going to be a right match that's a great icebreaker question on an early date you know first of all if they've watched where of the roses then you know you're in hate hasn't watched it I know I know you know you know in Kate's defense it's it's an older one and it's you know there's been a lot of movies since so I can just get to it because it was a huge source material for us for the woman inside. Yes, that's what that's what gears always reminded me. I'm always, always, always reminding her of that. Yeah, I do need to watch it. It's like, it's like just this reminder that I'm like, Kate, you have to watch the War of the Roses. I've just been reading so much that I watch less

lately. Yeah, I will say that's a good defense. 2023 has been really good for books. There was just been so many. And Garrell will be like, this is amazing. And then I request it. And I like, get it that day. And I'm like, well, now I need to start that one. Hey, do you have to do and your husband have shows that you watch together? Do you have any kind of like, you know?

Yeah. So actually, we just watched Platonic on Apple TV together, which is kind of like a, it's, I would call it a dromedy. And we just love Seth Rogan. So. Yeah. And basically, he, he doesn't like to sit still. long periods of time. So like once a quarter, he's like, I want to watch a TV show. So then like the patient was the other one that we watched, which is like totally different than Platonic.

But basically every now and then it, the star is the line and he's ready to sit down and watch a show. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. I think definitely more of a movie person now. Yeah. Like it takes a lot for me to like be into into a show. And if I do get into it, like, I've been watching sex education for a year and a half. Because I'll watch like two episodes and then I'll take like a month off and like just like watch like movies. Yeah.

New seasons coming out in a few weeks too. I'm still on season one. Oh really? I'm like, I'm telling you I'm awful. I am awful. That is my red flag. I will like cancel all of my plans and not write and do anything and watch something for like 12 hours straight.

That is me. If I'm alone, like I can watch an eight hour season of something like in a day. And I love it. I could watch like Philo. I watched silo recently and could not stop watching it on an Apple TV. Apple TV is putting out some great stuff. They are for sure.

Yeah, watch Silo as well. Oh my gosh. I was obsessed with it. Yeah. So unique. Is that like, no, that's not the Idris one. That's hijack. That's hijack. That's on my list too. Ian Gares. I'm watching it. I only have one episode left. Yeah. All right. Nice. Oh, my God. Yeah. You have to be really into like action and espionage and stuff. I don't 100% know what's going on. I don't 100% like guarantee that I'm going to understand the ending. But Idris Elba's in it. So I will continue. Yeah. I, you know, I love an action. thriller, so. Because I love Luther.

Yeah. It's one of my favorite shows. It's so good. Like over and over and over again. Did you watch the movie? Yes. Yes. I was happy.

I, yeah. I really, I mean, I need to watch it a couple more times because there was a lot happening, but it was great. Yeah. I love Cynthia Arrivo.

So like having them together. Yeah. Oh, my God. She's amazing. I love her so much. Yeah. Yeah, she's incredible. This is giving me motivation to finish book four because there's all things I've been wanting to read and watch.

And I usually don't read a lot of fiction when I'm writing because I'm like very worried about being impressionable. You know, and I usually, and for this book that we're working on now, it's about a con man. So I've been reading a lot of, you know, like nonfiction books on that subject. So I can't wait to like get to this list. I love cons. I am so excited for this. I am so excited for this. Yeah.

I've needed a really good one since I read Look Closer. That's still one of my favorites of all time. That's a good one. I have to reread that. Yeah, that was really good. That was really good. This is going to be so twisty too. Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like it's a little bit different than what we've done before. Would you say that, Greg? Yes, it is. I mean, one, we're a little outside of that world that we did in the first three books with the detectives on Long Island. This is actually starts in New York City and then there's a road trip. They end up in Florida. There's various stops along the way. So it's not in that same world directly.

There is a call. History, as we mentioned earlier, there is kind of a call back to a woman inside though, which I think you guys all dig. Yeah. So it's a little bit, I mean, style-wise, we still kind of have our, you know, we kind of have our calling cards. but story-wise, it is a bit different. It's been fun. Yeah. And we're brother and sister in the book.

We're writing his brother and sister. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's going to be so good. The coolest writing style I've ever heard. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm super pumped because I feel like you're like, obviously your relationship has grown since you guys started writing together and you can really feel it in your books. Like, you know, I think the woman in size. is like my like War of the Roses. Like that's my number one. Like this is the book you have to read. No matter who you are, no matter what you like, like this book is just the best.

But like as you guys have continued, I'm like, oh my God. Like they are just like on top of their game. Thank you. So the fact that like you're kind of like stepping away from like that world, but like you're like switching up the relationships that you're writing about and you know, kind of like doing like a con man story. I'm into it. I'm into it. I'm so excited. We have to keep our like devoted readers like yourself.

Like we have to keep you excited. And I think sometimes with, you know, especially authors who are writing in certain genres, like there is that push pull between like you need to write, you know, what you're known for. And readers are really smart. They're really discerning. You can't pander. You have to just write what you're interested. it in, so it will be interesting to the reader, you know, I think. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, especially like psychological thrillers and domestic suspense, like the way that you guys, like, weave them together is just impeccable. So there's so many different avenues that you guys can explore with those two genres that you write that, like, I'm going to be ready from now until, until I'm no longer here. that was so you finally find your serial killer husband yeah so i'm finally locked up in the basement i'm gonna start doing wellness checks on you gar i think he has like this honest person to say that

he has this like joke that she's like you're gonna get like kidnapped and like i'm gonna find you in his basement and you're gonna be like listen like he brings me down taco ball he gives me compliments like picks up my groceries for me like i'm okay i'll be fine yeah like I also have a fantasy of like his friend Cindy and I have like, you know, like never talk to each other directly. So I also like imagine him going missing and like she and I team up together to find him and of course probably develop a huge friendship in the midst. And then he's like, guys, you didn't need to save me. I'm fine. You just pitched a really good book by the way, Kate.

I hope we need to write it. That's the move. That's the move. Wouldn't it be great if the two of you jumped into a little back and forth with the writing process? I know. You're inspiring me. Yeah, your sensibilities line. I feel like you guys could work creatively well on the page. I think that Kate and I would do fantastic until the last chapter.

Oh, you're right. Until the last chapter. We would literally have to have to choose your own adventure. like do you want like bleak do you want happy like where you want to go here because i'd be like let's fucking kill everybody off like blaze of glory and kate would be like let's have a little triumph yes yeah that would be compelling because there'd be a tension in the ending and you would balance each other out so i agree you know yeah and i and i also feel the need to say with my pointed finger that um

that even though it takes me a while to process bleak endings, oftentimes it's typically with a book that was fantastic enough. And also I could tell was probably going in that direction. You can typically tell when it's not going to really be a happy ending. So like I can always be convinced that it's the right ending if it's the right ending. That's a good point. So if we needed to kill everyone, I would. I do.

You go where the story takes you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do have an idea for a story that I told Kate, and I've been, like, slowly chipping away at it and trying to. Some actual, like, inside info is that I actually sent my prologue to Ashley Winstead. Amazing. She was like, if you do anything in your life, it's that you're going to finish this. Nice.

I haven't even read it, and I agree. Yeah. I will try to do that in between, like, fighting off a tiny shark and trying to not get murdered by, like, a tall, hot Canadian when I'm grocery shopping. You have a big to-do list, but, yeah. Yeah. Keep pushing. And, I mean, listen, if you, if you, you, you know, if you're up for it, if you want fresh eyes on it, I feel free to send us. We would love to have a look at a good.

Yeah. I would take you guys up on that at some point. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then, like, you know what, a year from now, it. it's going to be like four besties writing a book together. We'll just up the ante.

You imagine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's efficient and the accountability is really good because like I believe it's something for myself. But if I know Greg's waiting and I know that his like week is determined, you know, by when I get my chapter to him, it's, it's good incentive.

So if there's three of you. Yeah. I also like love how you guys kind of said like you like your characters and your books. Like you don't really know, like, even though you're plotting, like, you don't really know, like, what necessarily is coming next or like, you know, what's going to happen to make you be like, okay, I'm going to like, bring it with this next chapter and like kind of like get back at him. I think it's compelling for the story because then you're letting the character drive the narrative one and you're not overly behold into something, you know, for instance, with the book we're working on now,

we had had it reasonably well mapped out. And we had chapter of thumbnails where we kind of knew like, okay, this is generally what's going to happen. We ended up actually about a month ago, would you say, Liz? We ended up kind of saying, like, why don't we flip a couple things? So the ending that we pitched isn't actually not going to be what the ending of the book is. You know what I mean? That was just, again, I think the process of like living with the characters for a while,

being in the story and saying like, okay, this is going to serve the story better. This is going to, this feels a little more like how the psychology is, these characters would sort of, you know, push events and how things would probably play out. So that's kind of interesting, too, just from, it's almost like as you're writing it, you're also just trying to pay attention to like what the story is, you know, as a reader kind of, you know, it's that reader. Is this the first? Sorry, go ahead.

No, you go ahead. I was just going to say, you know, I don't know if it's a superpower or a major personality deficit, but I can usually figure out the endings of things as I'm reading or watching. And my husband hates watching movies with me because I'm like, oh, this is what's going to happen. And he's like, how is it every time you know? So I think with our writing, we are kind of saving ourselves hopefully from doing that, you know, having too much. We can't like tip our hats very much if we don't actually know what's going to happen three chapters from the one we're in. So, you know, any like apparent foreshadowing or tells are usually not.

intentional. Sometimes we'll go back and we'll be like, oh, we didn't, we like wrote that thing. We didn't even realize it was going to connect to this thing over here until it did. So, yeah, it's, it is kind of like an inverse, choose your own adventure just in our, in our writing, you know, style. And Liz, that's an interesting point too, because, right, it's like you're not as the writer, if you're doing it that way, you're not then subconsciously telegraphing. Right. three elements to the reader without, you know, realizing it. So if you don't, if you kind of don't know exactly where it's headed.

Right. That is fascinating. I'm really good at guessing endings to things. I bet. And like movies, TV shows, I will say right now you guys are three for three. Like, I have never guessed an ending to your book. That's, wow. Never.

Thank you. Never. I'm always, like, walloped at the end. And then, like, kind of like, looking back. and I'm like, it's like those things where you're like, okay, like they were giving me like little hints, but like I just wasn't paying attention. You know, like when I read them like three, four, five, six, seven, nine, ten times. Taking all notes on my girl, Sheila. I feel like you think of a TED talk about the woman inside. You probably at this point know more

about the book than we too. I probably could. I probably could. I probably could. I just think that it's like, I mean, nothing against any thrillers that have been out or that were out. I feel like my whole thing was when Gone Girl came out, everybody was doing domestic suspense, Gone Girl, like, The Missing Wife. And granted, like, they were all different stories, but I just felt like there were so many, like, cookie cutter plots to domestic suspense, psychological thrillers, where everything was like very similar, but the endings were very different. And then, like, right when I read the first chapter all the way to the end of the woman inside, that's how I felt about that book when people read Gone Girl. Like, when they read

like the girl on the train and they were like, this is the thing that's going to change the game in this genre. Wow. You know, so, like, that's kind of why, like, like, everything that I love in a thriller is in the woman inside. And that will be forever my, like, it's my War of the Roses. Yeah. It's my War of the Roses, which I've been watching, like, a lot longer than I should have been. Like, my parents probably thought that I was watching, like, the Lion King.

Because I had the little TV in my room. with like the little like VHS player and it was like yeah the War of the Roses. I was like this is like the coolest action movie ever. Little did I know the effect it would happen as an adult. Well I know Kate I don't know about you. I know Liz from you know having known her like I know that we both were definitely watching you know age inappropriate stuff way too young. Kate are you in the mix up that too?

were you? I'm not. I'm the opposite. I had an extremely sheltered existence for the first 18 years of my life. And like, that's why I've missed out on a lot of movies from that time period. So I'm making up for lost time. That's why she has me. Because I was like lying to all of my babysitters. Like, no, my parents let me watch this. That's fine. And like they were probably going home like, oh my God. But yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm a pastor. kids. So that's, yeah, that's where we're coming from. And Garrett's now your literary Sherpa to yes. I try to like bully her into like all of like the like bleak books that I can, but like also like trying to get her to like live the enjoyment that was like 90s thrillers, like making her a list of like basic instinct, war of the roses. What was. I was. some other good ones. Fatal attraction. Fatal attraction. Do you remember that one with Nicole Kidman?

Which one was it? Deadcom. Oh my God. It's Billy Zane, Nicole Kidman. Oh, it's so good. It's a domestic thriller that takes place on a boat and the whole thing. It's at sea. It's phenomenal. Yeah, that one is good. I mean, all of the, what is, all of the books we, or all the movies we've watched when we were working on women inside, all the like Adrian Lynn movies. Oh, what's the one with Richard Gear and the affair and the murder? Oh, yeah, yeah. Unfaithful. Yes, yeah, Diane Lynn.

Oh, yes. Do you know that one? That performance, Diane Lane's performance, I think she got nominated for that film. Yeah. When she's that, just that scene where she's on the train. and she's having the breakdown on the train and it's like toggling between her losing it and then enjoying the

you know kind of oh no oh no he's frozen on the train he doesn't his hands are up in the air so you know it was like going to be good

like whenever I know it's going to be good I have to take on the same No, there it is. You froze at a really awesome. We lost you at this. Yeah. Oh, I was doing some funny.

Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Diane Lane. And I was like, oh, when he's going like this, like that, you know, like what he's going to say next is going to be amazing. Well, we'll put together a 90s thriller movie list. We'll try and see what, because there's definitely some good ones out there.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have for fall and like Halloween, I have the perfect toxic relationship, like thriller horror movie with Jack Nicholson and Michelle Pfeiffer in it. And it's called Wolf. And it's Jack Nicholson like gets bit by a wolf and like thinks that he's turning into like a werewolf.

But it's not like, oh, I'm turning into a werewolf like corny. Like it is very like toxic relationship. and New York City and it's like very like dark and moody and Kate you will devour it. Ooh. Yes. That sounds fun. Michelle Pfeiffer gives one of the best performances I have ever seen in my entire life. And like under 60 seconds with no dialogue.

Wow. Okay. And that makes me think of the Witches of Eastwick. Oh my God. That's just like one amazing. performance after the next in that movie. Oh my God. That is like one of my favorite favorite movies in the entire. That's when I saw when I was

way too young and also one I read when I was way too young. Yes. I know. It like made me not want to eat cherries for the rest of my life. Yeah. Yeah. Funny corollary to that. I happen to be looking at the bookshelf over there at the copy of the Witches of Eastwick that was gifted me for my birthday many years ago. Wow. And looking at it's one of the penguin classics,

you know, the orange stones. I'm looking at it right now. Yeah. Also, are those penguins on your shirt? Because I've been thinking about it this whole time. Okay. Cool. That certainly are. I do too. I was like, is it a penguin? Is it a snake? I can't tell. Yeah, no, it's like a penguin camouflage. I love it. It's like an optical illusion, Roar Shack. So whatever you see. Yeah. We now know we have a psychological profile of you. Yeah. I see Greg, he has like the coolest shirt, like imaginable on. Well, I, listen, you know, if I'm showing up for killing the tea, I need to come correct. You know, I mean, oh, my God, you guys. Well, my God, you guys. Well, I had so much fun. And I'm so glad that you guys were able to join us and hang out with us and give us all the ways that, like, you're crazy.

little minds work because I never get sick of hearing you guys talk about your writing process and like what inspires you and you know I think I speak on behalf of all of your readers when we say that we are very thankful that you guys have such a good friendship and you know it shows in your writing thank you well it has been a blast yeah and I also let's just thank you for like the years of support. I mean, you, right out of the gate, you were, you know, you got behind that book and really, you know, I mean, it means the world. Well, thanks for not blocking me on Instagram when it was like Christmas Eve. And I was like, oh my God, this is the best fucking thing I've ever read. Merry Christmas to me. I mean, come on, you know. Yeah, yeah. I will always think of like the woman

inside on like Christmas Eve. It's kind of like my go-to. I love that, you know how like there certain people, there are always those arguments around like, what's a Christmas movie, right? Yes. Like, is diehard a Christmas movie? Like, to this day, my sister's Christmas movie, favorite Christmas movie is still the ref with Dennis Leary,

which is basically about, you know, it's like, yeah, it's so good. It's not a Christmas movie, but it is, you know, it's a hostage movie. It's a hostage movie, right? But it's like, you know, it's a Christmas movie. I mean, technically, right? So I love I love the fact that, that, you know,

there are circles in which we are considered, you know, like a Christmas book. Like the woman inside is a book full of holiday cheer. Yeah. Yeah. It just reminds me of like Christmas Eve and there was that like huge spread and entertainment weekly about the book. Like right around the time that my arc came in and I was like, oh my God, this is. But I mean, I can't say anything about Christmas movies because my two Christmas movies like on Christmas Eve are The War of the Roses and Black Christmas with like Margot Kidder. For sure. That's a revisit for me every Christmas.

Like every Christmas. 12 days of Christmas horror movies. That's like a tradition in my house. I love that. I love that. I'll have to get your list because I like, I just always am like, people are like Black Christmas. Like I saw it and it sucked. And I'm like, no, not any of the remakes. Like you have to watch the original one with like 70s vibes and like Margot Kidder who never puts down a cigarette in the entire movie. It's just like, classic. It's classic. Well, and I just wanted to say thank you to you both because this podcast has been such a treat and it's been such a resource. I love how you talk about books and how you

support authors and like my TBR stack is purely your guy's fault. So when I finish these last two chapters, I have so many good recs. So thank you. Well, you're welcome. Thank you so much. And you guys. And you guys really are doing so. You have you have such a great dynamic and great chemistry together with this. I mean, keep, keep that you guys are, you guys are killing it. Keep doing it. Oh, we appreciate that. I know. You're almost finging me wonder if we should do a podcast, Greg, but no, I think you should. You should. In the reading and the writing, like, what sort of free time are you working with it? That's a really good point. Well, we, listen, you can make it happen. It's like what,

like an hour, hour and a half a week? Maybe. Yeah, I would literally. you wanted to. I should just leave it to the professionals, though. I would run. You can just pop on. I was going to say, if you'll have us, we'll, we'll be regular guests on your podcast. I think that's what we're going to kind of figure out. Yeah. Yeah. Anytime. I would love that. I would 100%. Well, we definitely have to do like a Christmas. Is it Christmas or not? Yes. That would be so much fun. That's true. Let's do that. We'll do like our favorite, we'll each come with like a handful of our favorite Christmas movies and we can yeah yeah oh shit i already i already said fine i come up with more a little more in-depth analysis you know what i mean yeah yeah we can all you can always come up

with more yes that's also very true yeah i could come up with more and like my first 20 minutes of talking would be like the reason why you need to read the woman inside on christmas eve is because yeah