Bookwild - Blood Sisters by Vanessa Lillie: Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Sisterhood and Personal Identity

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

This week I talk with Vanessa Lillie about her third book Blood Sisters!Follow Vanessa here on InstagramAnd check out the books she recommended:Never Whistle at NightAnd Then She FellThe Berry PickersManmade Monsters Blood Sisters SynopsisA visceral and compelling mystery about a Cherokee archeologist for the Bureau of Indian Affairs who is summoned to rural Oklahoma to investigate the disappearance of two women…one of them her sister.There are secrets in the land.As an archeologist for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Syd Walker spends her days in Rhode Island trying to protect the land's indigenous past, even as she’s escaping her own.While Syd is dedicated to her job, she’s haunted by a night of violence she barely escaped in her Oklahoma hometown fifteen years ago. Though she swore she’d never go back, the past comes calling.When a skull is found near the crime scene of her youth, just as her sister, Emma Lou, vanishes, Syd knows she must return home. She refuses to let her sister's disappearance, or the remains, go ignored—as so often happens in cases of missing Native women.But not everyone is glad to have Syd home, and she can feel the crosshairs on her back. Still, the deeper Syd digs, the more she uncovers about a string of missing indigenous women cases going back decades. To save her sister, she must expose a darkness in the town that no one wants to face—not even Syd. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Vanessa Lilly, who just published her third book, Blood Sisters, that I absolutely loved. She is also the host of an Instagram-wife show on her Instagram that you find in the show notes, called Twas the Night Before Book Launch, where she interviews a lot of the authors that we all love as thriller, mystery thriller fans. The Night Before their books come out. Some of my very favorite authors have been on that show with her, so definitely add that to your list of, of shows to listen to. But today we talk about her book, Blood Sisters. And it is about Sid, who is a Cherokee archaeologist for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, who escapes her hometown as fast as she could after surviving a violent night in her teens.

When a crime scene in her hometown is brought to her attention, she's pulled home just as her sister goes missing. As she searches for answers for her sister and the woman at the crime scene, She uncovers a string of missing indigenous women and is forced to confront the seedy underbelly of her town. I loved everything about this. It had amazing characterization. It has some super fun action scenes and multiple mysterious cases at his core. I couldn't wait to talk to Vanessa about it.

So let's get into our conversation. So today I'm here with Vanessa Lilly to talk about blood sisters. And I'm very excited to get into it. to that, but I did want to get to know a little bit more about you. So my first question is, when did you know that you wanted to write a book or that you wanted to be an author? Yeah, so I think like a lot of authors, I started out writing a lot as a kid and then kind of life got in the way. College, I focused more on like journalism and just sort of, I studied actually English like writing, but a little bit, but mostly it was more like from a literature

standpoint. So at the time I was in my early 20s, I had this feeling of like longing for something. I really wanted like I had, I worked in public relations and marketing. And I really like on paper, everything was good. But I just wasn't creatively happy or fulfilled. And I think I'm a big kind of like, I think a person's life purpose, which is such a big term. But I don't think it has to be like your job. anything but I think the thing that kind of lifts your spirit you know and maybe it's knitting maybe it you know like I don't know what it it maybe it's dogs like but I think we all kind of have something that's good for the soul and good for the spirit and sometimes you can monetize it yeah but generally I think what what it really does is connect you to like community um so for me writing I think

is the thing that is sort of my purpose and like what makes me happiest and I had ignored it for, you know, decade plus. So in my early 20s, I was like, you want to write a book, like, this has been a dream. You kind of just have to start the journey. And it would be 13 years later that I would be published. So it's a long journey. But, I mean, even after I was published, I realized, like, and having a book in the world feels so good. But really, it is the journey.

Like, it might be a cliche. but it's true. It's like the friends. It's the experience. It's like writing something that you love. It's working hard on it. Like, and, you know, doing better than you, like doing more than you even expected. Like, feeling proud of yourself for actually having, like, worked that hard to make something that some people like. So it was a 13 year process. And, like, even after, you know, I've been published now, Blood Sisters is my third book. You know, it's still, every book is hard. It's a journey every single time. But again, back to that life purpose thing, I do think because I'm doing what I love and

like kind of what I was meant to do in a lot of ways, you know, it's worth it. Yeah. But it wasn't, you know, an overnight thing. It was definitely like that Malcolm Gladwell thing, 10,000 hours to get good at something. Yes. And I still, and good is such a relative. term like right now I'm working on the sequel to blood sisters and it's just like I keep wanting to Google how to write a book because it's like it's hard every time it's crazy I totally forgot that

it was going to be a series because I didn't know that it was and then I had a friend message me last week and she like showed me on something that it said number one and she was like did you know this is a series I was like no I did it and I just like remembered all over again when we said that. So we're excited for it. And Walker will be back. She's, um, that's so cool. Yeah, I, I'm happy about that. I've never written a series before. So it's all kind of new to me, but I'm excited about it. Did you know going into it that you were seeing it as a series or was it something where like after it was written, you saw the potential? Yeah, I, I really felt for this book called to,

so I'm Cherokee. My main character is Cherokee. And I really wanted. to focus on my Cherokee identity, but then very particularly like around the missing and murdered indigenous women crisis. And I, and the idea that I had was like if you had a series of books that allowed my main character who would be sort of in my lane of experience, she's white presenting from Northeastern Oklahoma Cherokee, right? That's exactly what I am. To spirit, all that. And I was like, okay, so that's my lane. I feel comfortable here but I wanted to not just write about

my tribe like I wanted to write about other tribes and go to other places and elevate other issues so I thought a series would be great because I could have this character because the thing is I don't I couldn't really do standalones

with like different main characters each time because I only really want like feel comfortable writing from my view in this area like there are just so publishing has limited seats and I'm not going to write a book from the perspective of an Osage writer because there are not that many books with Osage main characters and as a Cherokee woman, I'm not taking the Osage seat

at the table. So I knew I needed to be right here. And so I was like, well, a series would be great because I could write the same character, get to know her and then, but she can, she's an archaeologist. So that would take her, and she's an archaeologist for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is the organization that manages all the tribal land in the country. So, you know, her job could take her to different places. So it sort of came more from a place of wanting to learn about other tribes and share information with readers about them. And again, needing to stay in my lane of experience. Because standalones, I think I would need to change up the character pretty radically for a new book. Right. Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I was going to ask about that. So she, Cid is a white presenting Cherokee woman as well as you. So a lot of that is coming from yourself. So like how much of your own experience did you bring? How much was it kind of like other stuff? How did you go about that? Yeah, I wrote a lot about like around the white presenting stuff.

I mean, I say that, you know, right now that term feels correct because it acknowledges my white female privilege, which I think is important. Right. And I think with so many people living with an identity that's been erased or people try to erase it, right? That's so much of the indigenous experience. You know, we're still trying to, like, come up for terms and explanation around our identity. Yeah.

And so for most of SIDS's perspective, I did sort of lean on my own things, like people asking, you know, well, how much Indian are you? Like, anytime I volunteered, oh, yeah, I'm Cherokee. It's like, well, how much are you? And it's like, well, what answer do you want? Like, I know. It's like what number would feel good for you to think, oh, you're enough to be like it's such a weird question. And I don't say it because I want to make people feel that.

But I just think that there's this sort of like an acceptance in our culture that you can like ask people how much Native American they are. Like it's just a very common and you know, or there's, you know, things around like internally, like do I look native enough? Like within a native community, if people, you know, have a darker skin tone or something, does that make them more native? And like identity is just such a difficult topic in any culture. Yeah. But for within the tribes in our country, just so many stories are that of people being distanced and separated and isolated and culture erased. And so, you know, it's something I like to talk about

because it's, well, it's hard to talk about, but it's something that, like, I feel comfortable because I know that with conversation comes like understanding. And I've made lots of mistakes, like, for sure. I make them all the time, you know, especially around identity issues, you know, like. Right. So it's, it's a learning thing, but I don't mind learning. on the pages of a book. Like, you know, I do research and I talk to people and then I put it out there and I see how people react. And I mean, 10 years from now, I don't know if I'll even use the term white presenting.

I don't know. Right. It's just like a journey. Identity always is a journey. And, you know, and I just do my best to like do right by my tribe. And right, you know, lane of experience. And some people, you know, read it. and say this wasn't my experience at all.

Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was, I talked to or I read, did you hear about Kitty Carr earlier this year? And it was a similar thing where it really addresses what I thought was really cool is it addresses what you said too, that it just because one person has the experience and they're in like the same identity group as another one. It doesn't mean that another person has the same experience. and some people struggle more with like the anger about it or some people struggle more with like what they can do with it. Just depending on like where they fall. And I just find those books really fascinating when like books manage to like incorporate that even though it's not like the whole plot, but it's like a subplot kind of.

Absolutely. And it I think it hopefully opens up conversation a little bit too. And let's people who, you know, a part of like, any diaspora to just see seen be seen a little bit more, you know, just because, I mean, many of us have different kinds of heritage. Obviously, it doesn't have to be native, you know, and we understand feeling, even just being, you know, from the state you're from, the place you're from. I don't know. There's just a lot of, I think, identity issues that it's like, sometimes we feel like we just have to know everything about ourselves or we're making mistakes.

You know, it's like, no, I don't know everything. I don't know how to talk about all the aspects of who I am. I'm still learning and that's okay. And some people might be really certain and that's great for them. But if you aren't, like, that's okay. You can continue to learn and grow. That's kind of why we're here, right? Yes, I love that. I am someone who gets like way too hung up on like, am I doing the right thing? Am I expressing myself the right way? So I love that. Like, even about yourself, like you don't have to be completely sure of everything, especially not all the time. you might change. Hopefully we do, right? I mean, I think that's, we're always learning and growing. If we're not, like, if I knew myself at 22, God, like, you know, like I needed to grow and learn.

And I still will continue to do that. I mean, we live in such a big, wide, exciting world. And there's so much information and perspective and storytelling, really, right? That's how we learn so much is through storytelling, not just all the time, stories we tell each other, all of it. So it's, you know, it's an opportunity for growth. I mean, when I go back and read like my debut, oh, there's things in it that I think, oh, I definitely wouldn't describe something that way or, oh, you know, but that's okay. It's like a moment in time. And when a reader read something, it's also their moment in time of what they're experiencing

in their life, which is why, you know, storytelling is so important. Yeah, I completely agree. Speaking of stories telling, what is your writing process? like um so like how do you kind of get started typically this turns into are you a plotter or a answer but sure what's your approach so i um the one of the biggest parts of my process is research um even though i write kind of suspense and thrillers um i'm really into making as many elements of the plot based in real life that's something i love as a reader and for whatever reason it's hard for me to just make everything up. I just doesn't feel comfortable. I really like, you know,

not the characters because you don't want to get sued, but all of the world, the place. And this book is set in 2008. So that's a different time. I mean, the iPhone was just coming out. You know, like things, things were different. And that's interesting to me. So research is huge. Like, especially, so in this book, Sid Walker is an archaeologist. And I mean, I'm not a science girl at all. So I really, had to read some memoirs, do some research, do informational interviews because I had an idea of who she was, but that didn't really come together for me until I understood a little bit more about what an archaeologist's worldview would be and how they see their job and their role, particularly more than just your average archaeologist, whatever that would be. But she works for

the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is an organization that it's part of the federal government and it has managed tribal lands, you know, for 100 plus years. And it has an extremely contentious and adversarial relationship traditionally with tribes. And I mean, nowadays, it is better, but there's still a lot of very justified distrust. And so I like, and so to have a character who worked for them who was also Cherokee and believed in her work. I had to kind of think about what the organization is and I had to speak to people in it and then also think about what would an archaeologist be drawn to that work. And for her, it's that she sees her job as someone that really supports tribes. And she, I think the phrase is like she feels like

she's kind of like a midwife to the past for the future because tribes do, you know, get support from BIA and she can be someone they can at least trust. Yeah. So it took me a little while to kind of figure that out, but that, especially because I'm writing in first person, you have to really have that kind of nailed down. And then as I research different elements, more plot will come forward. And I do end up plotting. But I'm actually, I would call myself a reformed pantser.

I used to really just write from the seat of my pants. But I don't think I have a sense of structure. I think you hear people like Stephen King are like, oh, I never plot. Like, yeah, because like you have the imprint of exactly what needs to happen in a book, like in your brain. You know, like you're so naturally. And that's this. And some people also just, it kills the joy too. But plotting doesn't kill any joy for me at all, actually.

I still have lots of, oh, wow, moments or, like, characters surprise me and things like that still happen organically. But if I don't have a roadmap, I mean, I just go off into the ditch, like way more than I need to. Yeah. That's so fascinating that you just use the words, sometimes it kills the joy for people because I was just talking to Catherine Faulkner yesterday. She was saying literally said it takes the joy out of it if she thinks about it too much and she just has to start And I similarly I wrote all the time when I was a kid similar to what you were saying Plenty of Life has happened so I haven't made money writing or done too much until recently But once I read Save the Cat and saw the structure I was like oh this is how you could do it like it like clicked for me

And it like made me feel like very capable of doing it. So I think it's so cool how ever everyone has such different approaches. Like even two authors that will have like books that I like loved equally, like the approaches can still be so different. Yes. And even I think book to book can even, not always, but sometimes book to book it will change. You know, like maybe you, the plot just naturally falls together, but the voice isn't there. So you have to be creative around those elements. I, anytime I'm feeling insecure, I reach for a craft book.

So like I love Save the Cat. Writes a novel, especially that edition of it. Yeah, that was really read. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. There's another book called Story Genius by Deborah. That's the other one I read that I loved. I love it.

Those are my two. And I was like, I'll read it. Those are my Bibles. Like I feel like if you do everything she says, which is a lot of work. But you will have such a better product out of that kind of process of creation and creating that third rail, which is sort of. what keeps the plot moving, which is such a great way to think about it. I'm about to revise my sequel to Blood Sisters right now and I like have those books handy because I need to go deep into that.

Yes. It's like now I notice like I watch a lot of movies, watch a lot of TV. But now like even we're in the movie theater, I'm like, oh, this is the 20% mark. Like I have so much fun like seeing it and it actually makes me enjoy stories more. So I'm a huge fan of those books. And it's like, oh, this is the fun and game section. Yes, yes. It's like, I told Tyler at one point, my husband yesterday, I was like, I'm at the part where they assemble the troops. Like, everything's coming together and the dogs need a walk.

And I'm like, I just can't right now. I'm like, everyone's coming together. And the other really cool thing about structure is when it, when you don't hit those beats, a reader or a viewer can feel it, which. Yeah, is why I think sometimes things have to really be restructured on the back in because like an agent or an editor be like, this isn't working for me. And it's like, it's probably because you haven't quite hit the story beats. And it's like not to say something has to be formulaic, but a lot of that is there for good reason. Like you actually do need turning points

to keep the story going. And you actually do need to have that like external and internal journey for the character and if it's just you by the you know seat of your pants you might not naturally know where all of that structure work should go but the great thing is you can pick up a book you don't have to even get an MFA just pick up a book or even just Google it like a scene beats sheet and you've got it yeah yeah we had we actually had we were working on a documentary um my husband followed someone who ran an ultramarathon earlier this year and he was running into like I have like 60 hours of footage and I don't know what to do and I literally we like watched it for two days and like separated it into the way that Save the Cat says to do it and like everything had about

the right percentages and he was like that was so much easier and I was like what can I say it's true it's yeah it makes such a difference to have that structure that's so smart to do that with a documentary. Because documentaries, it's all storytelling, right? Yes. I was like, if we can, like, find some conflict, we can really put it into this structure and it did end up helping. So those books are amazing. In conclusion, basically. But I love how you were saying, like, for you, you want to kind of root it in something that's real and, like, research is a big part of it for you. And I know in your author's note, you mentioned that kind of like a similar case.

You read about one that was in the town you lived in there, possibly, I think is what you said. So how did that all come together? Yeah. So there's a book called Hell in the Heartland by Jacks Miller. And it's a true crime book. And it is about a real case that happened one town over from me in Welch, Oklahoma. And it very much inspired the crime that opens blood sisters and in some ways is sort of the heart of the trauma of my main character.

Yeah. But it's based on a real home invasion. So in 1999, two girls in Welch were one of them was actually about to celebrate, I think, her 16th birthday. And three men muscled their way in and stole them and murdered one of their parents and set the trailer on fire. And instantly, when the authorities arrived, they didn't believe the family that the girls have been stolen.

They actually didn't even really search the trailer, like the remains of the fire. And so they didn't even find like the father's body because what they were saying was the father took the girls and they're fine, which is ridiculous. Ridiculous. And as we all know, because we all watch CSI, the first 24, 48 hours are so critical in finding these,

you know, people who go, or just clues and evidence that you might need for a prosecution. Anyway, so they didn't do that. And it's terrible for the family because not only were they not believed, but they have had to spend since 1999, you know, looking for the remains, basically, of these girls. And they have been tirelessly looking. And so I have just, I never knew the girls,

but I've certainly watched the family. family and their struggle. And like I said, Jacks wrote this wonderful book about it. And so for me with Blood Sisters, I knew because that experience of not being believed is so common in missing and murdered indigenous women cases. In fact, one of the girls is Cherokee, but more to the point, it really is just indicative of law enforcement not believing. Yeah.

Or families not even having that support. because when you're, if a crime happens on travel lane and there's like a white man involved, they can't necessarily arrest him. And then if the FBI has to be brought in, they don't really care, especially not back about missing girls cases. And like heaven forbid they have like a criminal record or whatever, right? And then the one drug at night. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. So it's like, so I knew that I wanted that crime to sort of be the heart of it. And it also speaks to this larger issue of families not being believed and girls being stolen, you know, because it isn't, it's, it is missing and murdered. But what it really is is stolen. Right. Right. Yeah.

And the family is just never find anything out. Yeah. It's just taken from them. Yep. And they just don't have any, they don't have any recourse. I mean, it was actually, I don't know if you read Winter Count. by David Heska Wanobly Wyden. It takes place on the Rosebud Reservation.

It's a thriller too. But there's a character in it who's kind of like an enforcer who helps people find justice in their tribal community because they don't have anywhere to turn, right? So it's just something that just happens, but it's not acceptable. And thankfully with like social media and we kind of have more of a language around what was happening.

I mean, when this book is, when Bloods, when Bloods were set in 2008, we didn't have the missing and murdered indigenous women. and language, of course it was happening. But we didn't have like the phrases that you could share and like hashtags for activism. And so thankfully social media has been able to kind of elevate this more. And then there's like, actually there was just Red Shaw Day, was just Sunday of, you know,

of wearing a red shot for the missing immigrant indigenous women remembrance. So, you know, there's more activism to elevate it. But, you know, I think it does kind of go back to. people being believed and families being supported and understanding even where they can get support to find, you know, these women and girls when they go missing. Right. So you also kind of incorporate sisterhood very much throughout the whole book. And it's kind of these relationships she has like directly with her sister and as well,

like girls she grew up with where it felt like they were sisters as well. and it's kind of from what you were even just saying there it's almost like that was the last place that could like help was like themselves like they were the only ones that they could kind of count on to even do anything about it so how did you kind of approach that did you know going into it that you wanted it to kind of really follow sisterhood closely or did you kind of find that while you were writing it yeah i you know i think from kind of a couple different views like you know within a lot of tribal communities they are often matriarchal and or there's a tradition of matriarchy and you know women having leadership roles that was like foreign to like the

western view you know there's stories of like when people came over on ships like English people would be like why are you listening to the women and like why is there a woman in this meet you know these council meetings and things. Like a lot of the power that women had was sort of chipped away through these traditional systems. And so in that sense, I knew women would be a part of it. But also the sort of sisterhood that can happen, you know, with young girls is very powerful. And those childhood friendships, whether or not you stay in touch, do sort of stay with you your

whole life and shape who you are. And certainly there's a trauma around one of them. You know, I think that always lives with you. Like there's a ghost character in this based on her friend that was murdered in the opening scene. And just for me, I think that's an example of just like trauma is a ghost. And it does sort of live with you and prop up at the most inopportune times. And so, you know, I knew that sisterhood is sort of bittersweet sometimes, you know, when you have that trauma or in the case of Sid and her sister who she loves so much but has a drug problem. And it's like how many times do you let a person break your heart before you create some boundaries?

And I think in Sid's case, she created boundaries that were both physical. She moved across the country as well as emotional. And then I think there's just the question of do you ever look those boundaries and like what does that look like? And, you know, of course she's always her sister. but, you know, Sid hasn't really been there for her in the past few years. So it's kind of, I don't know, it's like, it's not really an easy answer and it's not meant to, like, put judgment on anyone putting boundaries down because boundaries are really important and hard to do. Yeah.

I was interested in the dynamics of a relationship. Yeah. Kind of put under those pressures. And everyone's sort of like a little bit right. a little bit wrong, you know, in the hard times. Yeah. And I don't know, just I'm always more interested in stories about women, too. Yes. Oh, yeah. Me too. Um, the thing, yeah, the thing was Sid that I really liked, and I'm also talking for myself, I'm sure right now, but I love that you, like, did explore her trauma and there has been a lot of pain in her past growing up. And sometimes,

that makes her like very closed off and sometimes it might seem like cold on the outside to other people but when we're in her mind we just like know where she's coming from and why she's needing to cope that way so did you like do anything to approach like keeping her a really sympathetic character even though sometimes she's like oh my gosh this is too much no yeah so she's having it in first person helps a lot because you are in the character's head and I tried to make her a little bit self-aware, even when she's making, you know, choices to be a little bit cold or distant, you know, because so much those kinds of things are for self-preservation or just old trauma responses, things like that. But, you know, she's on a search for justice.

So the choices she make are a little dangerous. Yeah. So I knew first person would help too. Like if you were just reading this and it was like third and this character is just running into danger all the time. I think that would be hard as a reader. But I sort of did my best to like justify it because I'm just not going to write a book with a character who like sits around waiting for the police to come. Like I'm just not right very interested in that. No.

Which, you know, means that she's like making some choices that are a little risky. But I feel like I don't know. Like I think if something happened like I only have a brother, but it Or, but if my brother or like a best friend was in like mortal danger, right, sneak on to a compound, probably. Yeah. I don't know. Like if the police were. Those people are amazing.

I was so scared through all of them. But yeah, I would be the same way. Like if someone I cared, I thought was there, like I'd be doing it. Yeah. So I, you know, and certainly as a reader, like I want my main character to be like super proactive. Even if I'm like, what are you doing? But it's also like, but also keep going. because if you're sitting at home, it's not interesting to me.

So I did know that, you know, I was going to have to justify a lot of behavior. And I'm just like, I just want to write a character that goes after what they think is right. Like I just think that was interesting character. Yeah. Like in a sequel, I don't know if this will stay, but like she's sort of like breaking into this like compound where she like, it's like a rich kid can't base. basically where she thinks there's some remains is like the opening so i've like listened to nothing i'm just like you know what we're going to just be who we are which is like i love that though yeah it does make her such a fun character i was like there and there just are there's some action

sequences where like i like realize i'm like sitting up again and i'm like okay i can i can sit back down again so i loved it i loved that she was just going for everything yeah there's i um i'm a pretty impatient reader. And there's usually a moment when I finished a draft and I'll take a day or two away from it and then sit down and upload it onto my Kindle and try to read like a reader and be like, this is not your book. And there were a couple of times when I was reading it and I thought, oh, this is too boring. Like I need a car chase. I need like there's like a couple like I really want there to be a lot of, I mean, there's some breaths, but for the most part, you know, a drungy of intensity building.

So I don't know that I would naturally be like, oh, you're a writer who writes car chases, but I had to throw some in because, you know, there were just some time. So I was like, have we been sitting around thinking for two chapplers? Like, that's not going to work for me. Yes, I totally see that. Because the pacing was like it reminded me of, I remember I was texting gay when I was reading it. I was like, some of it is like spy thriller pacing, like, because she is like, like, vetting people and like trying to figure out what's happening and like bending the rules a little

bit so it definitely even feels like spy thrillers which is like my other favorite subgenre so anyone who loves that would love this too in my opinion yeah i there's some really i just got the nicest comparison um it was in the la times um yesterday they compared they said they compared it to um sa cosby's blacktop wasteland oh my gosh that's amazing it's amazing it's amazing I'm like, she's so cool. As a tattoo on my shoulder. Yes. Like that's what he is another example of an author who can write emotional depths.

But like with that spy, like you're saying that spy car chasing, you know, explosions and crazy people. And I mean, Black Top Boys on particular talk about the car chase. So yeah. Yeah. It's it's that kind of thing where like I love character driven, but. not when it's slow burn. So when someone can do both, I'm like, I will read everything that you write. I in the same way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I loved it so much. So everyone who's listening, if you've not read it, you do need to go read it. But at the end, I have been asking people what they've read recently, that they really enjoyed. So the book I've been talking about nonstop on my book tour is Never Whistle at

Night, which is a dark fiction anthology of 27 indigenous authors. And about half of them, this is the first time they've ever been published. Wow. It's really cool. And there's also some like well-d-old. Yeah, there's some well-known authors as well, like Stephen Graham Jones does the foreword. So Nick Medina, who did Sisters of a Lost Nation, which is another really great book I'm actually reading right now, the follow-up to that. Indian burial ground and it's great. But so in this, there's like just some really great

authors and it's cool because you can just get one short story from them and if you like the voice and the writing, maybe just like dip into some of their other books if they're one of the, you know, people in it who are authors. And then some people will be brand new which I just think

is really cool to just read someone that this is their first thing they've ever published. And right. I mean, everyone I've been talking to and I would agree with this, it's like all the stories are like four and five stars like they're all just really solid and they and and everyone obviously you know there's 500 plus tribes in this country like everyone has like different indigenous backgrounds so it's cool because you're really dipping into a lot of different like questions and identity and it's all mostly dark to horror so it's cool it's so never whistle at night

it's like a paperback like it's really just easy to grab and have um so i love that Yeah. And I'm trying to think of, like I said, Nick Medina's I'm reading right now and really enjoying that. I really loved. I blurbed Alicia Elliott's and then she fell. She's another indigenous author who wrote a really great memoir first. And then this is her kind of debut.

And it's about, it's cool. It's like a little more experimental. It's like just a thriller. But it's just about a woman who's a new mom who, who is sort of starting to hear voices and see voices and try to connect back to her tribe's creation story. And then there's just some like, and she's like taken out of her community and she's married to a white man who's like an indigenous professor or like indigenous studies professor. Yeah. So it's like very clever and like just cutting and insightful. And like I said,

there's some like mystery elements, but it's it's really almost like an experimental thriller to me. That is so cool. Yeah, it's great. I mean, I just, I think she's so talented. So I really loved that. And oh, sweet bear, sorry, the berry pickers just came out by Mander Peterson, which is about, it's also like a literary fiction. And it's about a woman who's essentially sort of taken when her indigenous family is picking blueberries in Maine. And so it's sort of a family story, but it's just like really beautiful. And it's a debut, which is cool. Wow.

So that's a really great one as well. Yeah, that sounds kind of like, happiness falls was like that where like there's kind of mystery, but it's a little more of a family drama. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think people are going to really, yeah, there's like a little mystery, but it's just you kind of might stay with it because the writing characters is so good. That sounds awesome. And the other one I love to recommend. is it's a YA kind of anthology, but it's all the same family.

And it's man-made monsters by Andrea L. Rogers. She's Cherokee. And it follows a Cherokee family. Basically, I think it's over almost, maybe almost 200 years. But it's horror. And it kind of opens with a girl who gets essentially like turned into a vampire. and it ends with like a zombie virus apocalypse. And it goes and there's like lots of different forms it takes.

And it's but it's like one family all the way through. And then also really cool is they have an illustrator. He did use like Cherokee syllabary to make like kind of like illustration. So it's actually like a really beautiful book too as well as being good. And it's YA, which is kind of fun, too. So that's a good one as well. Did you say the title of it? It's a man-made monsters by Andrea.

You're right. I just didn't type it out. Okay. I was like, yeah, she's making sure. Yes, it's great. A couple weeks ago, I talked all about a book and how much I loved it for like five minutes. And Gere was like, that sounds great. You didn't tell us the title.

I was like, oh, my gosh. What was it? Do you remember? It was the clinic by Kate Quinn. It comes out like on January. I haven't read it yet. My source books, right? Yeah, I haven't read it yet.

Yeah, I haven't read it either. I had just gotten in. I was like, it sounds eerie. It sounds fast pace. Like I'm just like saying all this. He's like, but you didn't tell us what it is. I was like, okay, I'll tell you the title then. Yeah, that's all me.

Did I hear the title or not? I love that. That's on my TVR for sure. Yeah, mine too. I'm hoping I'm hoping I get to it next month. we'll see how everything plays out. So I will put all the links to what you just talked about in the show notes so that people can find that really easily.

Where can they follow you to stay up to date with everything? Yeah, so I'm always on Instagram and it's my first and last name when my last name is spelled weird. So it's Vanessa and then L-I-L-L-I-E. So come hang out with me there. I have my IG live show, which I'm starting up the first Monday of December. So it's usually Monday nights. because it's called was the night before book launch.

I generally try to talk with authors the night before their book comes out for about a half hour. And I'm going to have, let's see, Tessa Wenger and Cass Freer on Monday, the first Monday. That's exciting. Yeah, so I'll at least get one episode in and then hopefully the new year. It's, as you know, you know, it's always a scramble to get guests and figure things out. But it's fun. And then I do have an author newsletter. that I said not infrequently you can sign up on my website and I'm on like Facebook and I've just

started on TikTok. Are you on TikTok? Oh yeah. I'm on TikTok way too much. Okay. I feel like I follow you. It's fun. I really just started. Yeah. And I'm trying to just like enjoy it and not get stressed about it. Yeah. Which is how I am about Instagram. But book talk is fun. Yes. There's like everything on TikTok that's fun to me. Like I post mostly booktock content, but then like my four you page is like all kinds it's just everything yeah like my four use is like a lot of comedians right now it's like so funny to see what you watch because it just tracks you right yes and then i have all this like dark romantic fiction which i must just be listening to the views which i mean that's great there's nothing wrong with that i know but it's like so funny to see what i spend

the most time doing because it starts sending content yes yeah it's a really i love that algorithm. It finds all kinds of random stuff that I, like, didn't know I was going to be interested in. So it's fun. So everyone can go find Vanessa on all of those links, and thanks for being on the podcast. I'm so happy to be here. This has been such a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Between the Lines. And if you did, the biggest thing you can do to support the podcast is to go rate and review it on whatever platform you listen on. You can also follow me on Instagram at the girl with the book on the couch. And if you still need more thrillers in your life, check out Killing the Tea, my other podcast where I talk to my friend Gare about literally

everything we read.