Bookwild - Bodies to Die For by Lori Brand: A Thriller in the Fitness World with an Empowering Message

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

This week, Steph Lauer and I talk with Lori Brand about her insanely fun thriller Bodies to Die For.  She shares her inspiration for the book, and her personal journey writing it.  To check out her article about why she wrote Bodies to Die For, click hereBodies to Die For SynopsisPopular fitness influencer Gemma has transformed herself from a Before into an After, complete with washboard abs, thriving business, and gorgeous husband. But social media can be deceiving. Offline, the cutthroat world of bikini bodybuilding may just eat her alive. That's if she's not first devoured by the secret nemesis that lurks beneath her polished surface, waiting to destroy her.Software engineer Ashley is fat and frustrated. Frustrated with failed diets. With a world that wants her to shrink. With biased doctors, online trolls, and even her own mother. Until Ashley falls in with a mysterious and radical sect of Fat Activists who are fighting back ... by any means necessary. She's never felt so alive, so full of purpose. She'll do whatever it takes to ride this high, destroy Diet Culture, and win the approval of her charismatic leader.But when Gemma's toughest rival turns up dead, and more fitness girls fall like dominoes, it's beginning to look like the body image war has gone too far.With breakneck pace and keen insights, Bodies to Die For takes a hard look at social media, the $70 billion diet industry, and the war on women's bodies--the wars we wage with each other, and with ourselves. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week, Steph Lauer and I talk with Lori Brand about her debut thriller Bodies to Die for that we both just are obsessed with. We can't stop talking about this book. It's amazing. I can't believe it's a debut. I can't believe everything that is contained in this book. But so I don't spoil anything. I'll just read the synopsis so you guys know what you need to know.

Popular Fitness influencer Gemma has transformed herself. from a before into an after, complete with washboard abs, a thriving business, and a gorgeous husband. But social media can be deceiving. Offline, the cutthroat world of bikini bodybuilding may just eat her alive. That's if she's not first devoured by the secret nemesis that lurks beneath her polished surface waiting to destroy her. Software engineer Ashley is fat and frustrated, frustrated with failed diets, with a world that wants her to shrink, with biased doctors, online trolls, and even her own mother, until Ashley falls in with a mysterious and radical sect of fat activists who are fighting back by any means necessary. She's never felt so alive, so full of purpose.

She'll do whatever it takes to ride this high, destroy diet culture, and win the approval of her charismatic leader. But when Jima's toughest rival turns up dead and more fitness girls fall like dominoes, it's beginning to look like the body image war has gone too far. With breakneck pace and keen insights, bodies to die for takes a hard look at social media, the $70 billion diet industry, and the war on women's bodies, the wars we wage with each other and with ourselves. So I'm speaking for both of us here, but Steph and I have talked about how both of us almost just like feel this need to tell people about this book because some people are going

get the wrong idea about the book or not want to read it because it like takes place with fitness girly um so i'm just going to say here at the top of the episode what i said in my review um if you saw it anywhere on instagram or good reads um if you're nervous that this book is fat shaming is skinny shaming or is anything shaming you don't need to worry because this book is is so not that book and just really talks about the relationship that we have with ourselves and the way that people talk about other people's bodies as well. But it is also just a fantastically fun thriller that just has some of my favorite tropes in it. And I just really, really loves how Lori meshed the hyper-competitive fitness

this world, like, turned it into a campy thriller setting. So I just cannot say enough things about this book. I loved it so much. There was a part at the end that made me tear up. I think we talk about it a little bit in the episode. And definitely check the link for, there's a link in the show notes for why Lori wrote this book. And she talks about it a fair amount on the podcast too. but if you have any interest in knowing what inspired her to write this book or also if you're

on the fence about reading this book, I would recommend reading about why she wrote it. So check that in the show notes and otherwise enjoy this conversation with Lori and stuff. I was reading your author bio and you have been a gymnast, a dancer, a playboy model, a bodybuilder. And now you're a yoga teacher, a group fitness instructor, and a software engineer. So amid- quality- So quality-engineer. Oh, sorry, quality-engineer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't code. Okay, yeah. Oh, okay. There we go. Yeah. But amidst all of that that you've done and writing for fitness magazines, when did you realize you wanted to write fiction?

So I think I first, you know, I had thought about writing, oh, like years and years ago. I just kind of had toyed with the idea. Like when I was in college, I took a creative writing class because I thought it was interesting. But I never really much pursued it. I wish I would have in hindsight, but I didn't. But then I first kind of got serious about it about maybe 10 years ago. And I wrote an entire book. I wrote a whole book, wrote the whole thing, queried it.

And it went nowhere. It just died. I had some people, different agents, requests partials and fuls. but ultimately nobody was super interested. And I probably got about maybe 60 queries in or so. And I was starting to realize from the feedback I was getting from the people that did request partials and the people that did request falls, I was starting to realize it was going to need some work, right?

I was going to have to, I was, I don't know what, I just wrote the book. Like I didn't have a really good understanding of story structure or anything. And so I was starting to realize it was going to need some work. And for some reason, I didn't really feel like putting in the work. I feel like that was a story that I needed to write because I needed to write that story. Like, it was like something in me that I had to get out of me and then I got it out of me. I got it on the page. And at that same time, I was going back to school.

I've been a stay-at-home mom for a number of years. And then I decided to go back in school. master's in biomedical engineering. And so I was busy then like studying for like school, school and then getting a job. And it, um, it just kind of, I don't know, I didn't feel compelled, right? And then nothing happened for a number of years. I'm maybe like, like seven, eight years. And then all of a sudden I started to feel like driven to write again. And my kids at that point were older. They were like in, uh, later, later in high school. So I had, um, a little more bandwidth. And so I started writing another book. It's not this book. I started

writing another book. And I was about 20,000, maybe 30,000 words in. And then something happened, which we can talk about in a minute, but something, something happened to the news that really caught my attention. And I kept thinking about it. And I kept thinking like I wanted to write about it. But I was like, no, I'm already, you know, 20, 30,000 words into this. I'm going to just finish this book. maybe I'll write about the other one later, but I just kept getting pulled to this other story. Like, I just kept getting pulled this other story. And finally, I was like, you know what, I'm just going to set this story aside. I'm going to start to write this other story.

I'm going to see, you know, see how it goes. And I wrote like 5,000 words in like maybe two days. And I was like, you know what? I'm going that way. And I just went that way and I wrote that story because I just couldn't shake it. Yeah. And so, yeah. So that's what I guess.

was bodies to die for, correct? Yep, yep, yep. It was originally when I wrote it, it was called Body Wars. But it was the one that eventually became Bodies to Die for. Yeah. Yeah. So you have, I want to say this at the top here, you have a really cool blog up on your website about why you wrote it. So I'm going to put that in the show notes for anyone who wants to like read that at length. But I know you talked about there were two things that kind of happened in the news that really step out to you and inspired you to write that. So you want to talk about that? Sure. So, and I remember really clearly. So in January of 2020, Gillian Michaels was interviewed on BuzzFeed News. And when the subject of Lizzo as a role model, a body image role model came up, she said, why are we all

talking about her body? Why aren't we talking about her music? Because it's not going to be great if she gets diabetes. And social media. it just blew up, man. It just blew up. And there were so many people that just hated Gillian. And then there were all these other people who came to Gillian's defense and were like, you know, we have to quit glorifying obesity. And but then other people were saying, you know, the healthy at any size movement is a really good thing.

There's a lot of people who felt very shamed by their bodies and to have a bigger person, you know, living her life and, you know, making music. and, you know, being considered beautiful. It's a wonderful thing, you know? And, and it, and so that was the first thing that kind of pink that really kind of got me, like, you know, about both sides of that argument. And then a few months after that, Adele had posted a picture of herself, a birthday picture of herself on Instagram. And she had lost a considerable amount of weight in the picture. And she wasn't posting a weight picture.

It was just a picture of herself on her birthday. And all these people came out. And it generated all this controversy. Like her body, her birthday picture generated this controversy. And people were saying that they were disappointed in her. They felt that she had let them down. And like she doesn't know anybody her body. But, you know, because they looked up to her as a role model for the body positivity movement.

But then, you know, she came out, I think later on a while later. And she said, you know, she had been going through a dark time. And she had started exercising because exercising made her feel mentally strong and it helped to get through this, this dark phase. And that just happened that she had lost some weight. And it really got me to think how both of these ideas, right? The, you know, fitness inherently, there's a lot of good about it, right? You know, a healthy body, you know, sometimes frequently can lead to a healthy mind.

Like if your body feels good, it feels good, right? You can help you feel mentally strong. you know, it's good for you to eat like nutritious foods and to get some fresh air and some exercise. But having have been, you know, a dancer, a bodybuilder and a gymnast, I've definitely like seeing that ugly, ugly side of fitness. And that's maybe a little bit more mainstream. A lot of people are aware of that uglier side. But then also the healthy at any size movement, there's so much that's so good about that. you know, I think when I grew up, I think if there would have been larger people who were role models who were comfortable, say, wearing a swimsuit at a beach and feeling confident and sexy, that would have been a good thing.

But then seeing that there was also this uglier underside of it where people, if they're losing weight or all of a sudden now being judged like they owe the world their body. I was horrified by that. and it was this thought of these like polar opposites um what if they clashed right what if they clashed and and i thought you know that was something that i really wanted to explore and um and bodies to die for what came up because of it yeah yeah i think it's such an interesting concept and those were like when i was reading that earlier i i so clearly remember those yeah so much confidence so much conversation about it. It was so much conversation. Yeah. Especially, I know a lot of people in the fitness space too. So I, you know, a lot of the people I follow are in the fitness space. It was all over my

feed, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I remember Joe Rogan was talking about like, leave Adel alone. Like, what are you like, what are you guys doing? Like, it was everyone was talking about all of it. I know. And the thing is, she didn't even ask for it. All she did was post a birthday picture of herself. You know, like you should be able to post a picture of yourself on your birthday without anybody commenting on your body. You know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

We're acting like it personally affected their lives. Like that's like they're calling her like a traitor and like. Yeah. Yeah. It's just absurd. And it was. I think it's so absurd about it is what you talk about what the book encapsulates as well is like body positivity obviously started out more with. overweight or less conventionally attractive people. That's where it started because that's where

they weren't getting that that was the group that wasn't getting much positivity. Like if you're skinny, you were probably getting positivity about your body. Yeah. So they want body positivity. And then to your point, then it turned into this extreme thing where like, where less traditionally attractive people were wanting it to be like, we can all feel beautiful. Now it's like, they're like, but if you try to get skinny, you're not agreeing that we're all beautiful. And that's, Right, right. It was, it was, it was, it was that, right? It was this, this policing of other people's bodies that, you know, nobody owes anybody like their body, you know, and we don't know what anybody else is going through. You know, like for all you know, somebody might, you know, they might lose some weight because they're really depressed, right? Or maybe they have cancer, right? Or maybe, or maybe somebody gains some weight, but maybe they'd gain some weight because they were battling a really serious eating disorder and they're just trying to get away from that. Or maybe, you know, maybe they've recently, like, quit doing drugs, you know, of some sort. You know, I, I volunteer at a huge yoga at a homeless shelter on Saturdays for women and children.

And very frequently, we'll see, it's a long term. It's a transitional housing. People will stay for, like, four months, six months. But very frequently, we'll see people who will come and they'll gain some weight. And a lot of times it's, you know, they've quit being an alcoholic or they've quit doing meth or they've left. a really dangerous relationship, you know? And, you know, they put on a little weight. And, you know, here these people are making really good positive strides in their life. But they're like, oh, but, you know, I, yeah, they're worried about how the world is judging them on how they look.

And it's just discouraging, you know, so yeah. Yeah. It really is. And there's so many, I think where you're pointing out, there are so many reasons people gain or lose weight. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, yeah. It's not for any of us to, like, think we need. know why someone is doing you're losing because it can there can be good reasons you're losing there can be bad reasons you're losing and bad reasons it's ultimately nobody's business right and it may it may be a very personal reason you know and it just it's just and i and the thing i was really trying to get at in the towards the end of my book is that um you know so often we say well society this and society that but you know who who is society right society is all of us

And, you know, I really believe, like, we as women need to quit ripping each other down. Because when I was looking at those feeds for both Adele and at, and Julie Michaels, it was overwhelmed with so many women. We're just ripping on each other. And it's, I mean, we need to quit tearing each other down, right? We're stronger together and strong women lift each other up. And so that's really what I was trying to, like, you know, get across in the end. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think it's a spoiler if we feel like it is. I'll just cut it out. But what I thought was so cool was that finding strength was the character arc for both characters. Both of them. Both of them. Drink. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I was really careful on, I hope it's not. I'll let you determine if you think it's a spoiler or not. But I was kind of careful not to. I never say. I make sure that Ashley never loses weight. The most I ever say is that she's,

she towards the end looking in a mirror, she sees muscles she never knew she has started to pop out. So I lead that up to you to interpret however you want, but I didn't want her happy ending to be that she lost weight, like wink, wink, but she really did lose weight. Like that, that's not, that's not the happy ending, right?

The happy ending is that she gets strong, right? She gets strong and that that's her happy ending. you know um but uh yeah i don't know maybe that is this word yeah it's so yeah yeah where you're talking about me where like it helps your mental health so yes much so much even if you're not losing weight there you feel like a different person when you're like challenging yourself with like a physical workout each day like it makes a difference and the end and it made a difference for her too yes absolutely i believe in that so strongly yeah it yeah it's yeah it's crazy how much it helps your mental health. That's like the number one reason. Like there are times

when I am not losing weight from working out. But like my sister and I both kind of have different reasons that that happens sometimes. And she and I will have conversations about it and we're like, but I'm not going to stop because like that's not the main reason I'm doing it for like, I feel powerful and I feel capable when I'm doing it. And then I'm less anxious and I sleep better. Like there's so many like non-feel victory things. Yep. Just yeah. Yeah. life daily, right? Like, I can do things because I move this way or we can maybe do something by myself that maybe I couldn't do or when I get older, I may be able to get back up if I fall down. Whereas if I wasn't, like, you know, you think about the longevity of why you do it.

It's so, it's so cool to hear. As a previous personal trainer, I love hearing this conversation. Like, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. I don't feel like as we were talking about all these things right now, it shocks me that maybe they're out there, but like it lends itself so well to a thriller. And like, where are the thrillers in this space? Because the intensity of emotions that we were just talking about, regardless of if it's even somebody close to us or not, like the intensity of it, I mean, it's a perfect thriller setting. So how did you connect those two things? Well, so, you know, I think I originally started thinking about something sort of like this. Even longer ago, I went to something, when I was first getting into writing, writing for fitness magazines, I went to something called FitPosium.

And it's since been rebranded. I can't remember what it's been branded to now. But John Patrick is a photographer. If anybody is listening to this, if you're interested, just shoot me a DM and I'll look it up and I'll tell you. I think, I actually thank him, or James Patrick at the end of my book, he's one of the people that I think. And it says what they rebranded to, but I can't remember what they rebranded too. But anyway, he had something at the time called FitPosium. And it's where it was like where 400 people converged in, in Arizona someplace.

It was like this fitness thing was mostly fitness models, people who wanted to become fitness models. But I wanted to get into writing for fitness magazine. It starts like a handful of us that were like writers and photographers, but the overwhelming majority were like fitness models. And it was really funny. I met some wonderful people there. I got to be friends with. But it was like 400 really hot women at this hotel taking selfies of themselves,

just constantly. Every time you'd be talking to, like, like, all this video ourselves doing this. We're like, if you'd get a drink and like you'd do cheers, they'd redo it. We'd have to do everything a few times until they video it. And like I was one time like I was in the gym downstairs with a whole bunch of all these other really attractive women and like some guy walked in. There's just some guy and you could see he was like like something's weird. He kind of like like left the gym.

Like he didn't know what was going on. Be thought maybe he was almost like being set up. But I thought this would be like such a good like documentary type of thing, right? Just the weirdness of it. And that's when I first kind of noticed like the weird kind of cult like thing about sometimes. people in the fitness industry. But then at the same time, I started then doing some different bodybuilding shows. And then it was even even weirder, right?

There's, I mean, Steph, I think you said you've done bodybuilding shows. Have you or did you ever done that bodybuilding show? I have not done on. I have friends that have done them. Oh, okay. So I can, like, follow it along. Okay. It's very, it's very kind of, it's, it gets weird, right? Like, like, because you're hanging out with people who you're sort of in a bubble.

You're hanging out with other people who are like you, so you almost don't realize how how weird it's getting, you know? Um, and, and, uh, you know, like, just like the, I hate to use the word of obsession, but like the, the rigidity with like counting that, because, you know, you're, you're, you're calculating those carbs. You're calculating that, those fats, you're calculating those that, that protein, you know, like the, the big hair, the spray tan, just the craziness of the show settings. Um, I mean, I've been, I've, a lot of the shows I've been at, like weird things happen, you know, just something weird happens. You know, somebody has a seizure or somebody, people getting screaming matches and just

all sorts of craziness. And, you know, because people are like, like, depleted. They're like starved and like carb, you know, carb depleted or dehydrated. And I was just like, man, there's a lot of craziness. This would like, this could, this could work well. I used to always think it could work well. And then when that thing happened with Julian Michaels and Adele, I just, was like, I'm just going to pick it up. I'm going to put it at like the Olympia, which is like

the biggest bodybuilding show in the world and just let all the crazy loose, you know. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did you, so how did you pull from your experiences to kind of like create the whole world of bodies to die for? So, um, just from my experiences, uh, you know, preparing for shows and being backstage at shows. I will, I will say I, I almost wanted to, to throw it at the end of the book, but I didn't did the acknowledgment. So maybe I should have. Overwhelming the body bills are actually really nice. I will say.

There's the kindest people that you'll ever meet. But you can't have a bunch of kind people in a thriller. It's just not going to work, right? So I tried to take like the worst of the worst, you know. But I've just seen a lot of weird stuff happen and stuff that like, like I was talking to a girl who was talking on the phone to her coach and her some guy who wasn't there and he was just screaming and yelling at her just berating her. I don't remember why he was yelling at her. But she was like, okay, okay, I won't. I won't. I'm sorry. And I was, I was, I was just standing

there. And I was like, after she got up the phone, I was like, what's with your coach? And, you know, I don't know. It's just sort of like, I don't know if it's that you're kind of in this whole thing, you're focused on that day, you know, that I don't know. You're just, you're in a bubble of getting to that stage. You're so focused on that that like some weirder things will be going on that you just have to like set aside. Or even when I would compete and I never was professional by any stretch. But even when I would have a show coming up, there would be lots of things I would set aside because I didn't want to, you know, like how would Gemma in the book kind of like, she knows her marriage is falling apart. but she sets it aside because she's focused on.

I got this show coming up. This isn't the time to rock the boat. I just got to get through it, you know. And then, too, I've known quite a few people too who, and even myself, after a bodybuilding show, after you get really, really low, because you kind of deplete yourself for that show, you carve up a little bit at the end, but still you've been at a pretty low weight for a long time. that in the next few weeks you kind of want to gradually bring your weight up a bit. But a lot of people will blow up, right? Because all of a sudden you'll start to eat and you'll just be like, oh, my God, I'm like really hungry. Like you'll be really hungry for like two or three weeks because I think your body's just so stressed out because you just did that to it.

You know, so. There's a lot of things about it that aren't terribly healthy, you know, like even though it's fitness. It's a corner of fitness that can have some unhealthy aspects potentially. Yeah. Yeah. So I just reached into there. No, I know. And I feel like you did a really good job of like the point is the extremes on either side can be unhealthy.

Like no matter that. Right. Yeah. And then I, and then too, I think I'm, you know, you had mentioned that, that article or the blog that I wrote about why I wrote it. Step, I don't know if you know this, but like, so when I was, when I was 10 years old, my dance teacher had her jaw wear shut. And, um, and so that was, yes, so this was my first, my first real encounter with diet culture.

I actually had pretty normal good parents. So I wasn't used to things like this. And my mom was driving me to dance. I'd been in dance since, I don't know, maybe I was like three or four or something. And my mom was driving me to dance lessons. And she says, oh, you know, Barb's not going to do. be teaching for the next few months. She'll still be there.

But she'll be sitting off to the side. But Jill's going to be teaching. I said, why? And she said, because Barb had her jaw wired shut. I said, well, why? My mom said, because she wanted to lose some weight. And I was like, so she had her jaw wired shut. And my mom was like, yeah.

And so she drops me off at class. And all the other little girls get dropped off too. We all go inside. And some of the moms walk their daughters in. And like, it's just business as usual. And so over the next. months. I watch Barb get smaller and smaller and smaller. And I'm just shocked by this that like nobody's freaking out. You're right? She's had her, she's got her jaw wired shut periodically. Like she like sucks on a

protein shake or some kind of shake where like her cheekbones pop out and she's just in a corner. And then at some point I did something. I don't know to warn her attention, but she she put her figure out kind of, you know, you'll come over here with her finger. So I, you know, I tap, tap, tap over there in my tap shoes. And I don't remember what she told me, but I thought like there weren't any moms around. And so I was like, you know, this is like my chance. And so I said, did you really have your jaw wear her shut? And she said, yeah. Or she said, yeah, with her jaw, their jaws like that.

I said, you know, can you show me? And so she put a hand, her finger in the side of her lips and she pulled it back. And you could see the wires zigzagging up and down between her upper and her lower teeth. And they were like fangs or like metal fangs. and it was so freaky and startling for me. And I was only like 10, but it left such an impact on me. You know, how important was it to be thin? It was it was that important, right?

And so I think ever since I've been about 10, I've just been sort of, I've had like this heightened awareness of that, you know. And then I was a gymnast and things like that. And, you know, that I think I, okay, I think I told her I was a stripper when I was in college on the side. So it's just a very heightened awareness. of perception and it all kind of came crash into my head when I finally decided to write this book and just how damaging it can be too it's not just damaging to to people who don't have that

conventional you know body it's it's damaging to everybody right I was at a very normal size when my dance teacher did that and it's it's it's it rattled me and it pretty much let me know at a really young age, you better not gain too much weight or you might end up with your jaw wire shut, you know? Right. So that's, it's, so it's damaging to everybody. It's damage. The 80s were terrible. Yeah. I mean, like I have people close to me from that generation. They're small people and the amount that we talk about their body. I just, I, I, I, it's ridiculous. Nothing you can say to change their mind about it. No, we've all been brainwashed. No, there's this.

whole piece of the world rebelling against that, right? Like, no one. But then it's interesting. Yeah, right. Well, like we were talking about before, there are probably quite a few reasons why people may be interested in making a change. And it's not easy, right? Like, they're a long game plan if you're doing it the right way. But like, if you're wanting it now, like, that might be something.

That's, wow. I don't know. There's a lot of impact. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah, I thought what you were mentioning, that blog that you have about it, because you then go on to talk about, like, other times where thing was like the obsessive thing and like how many times in your life you were encountering. Like you had a friend where, and I had read a book recently that talked about this or that had this in it too, but how like the bulimics and anorexics. Like, the anorexics looked down on the bulimics because they're like, yes. Yes. I was so shocked.

I was so shocked when I heard that. I was just, I was completely shocked. But yeah, even, even that you're an inpatient. You're an inpatient inpatient in the hospital. You'd think of anything. You'd all kind of band together, but not judge each other. But even there. Yeah.

And it actually went, so when I read your blog about why you wrote it, I have a really good friend Sagi Schwartz who was on the podcast as well and her book deals with eating disorders like a girl who was inpatient for a long time with it so I sent it to her too because she also works with girls with eating disorders so she like loved reading everything um that I sent over but she was like that it was reminding me in her book the girls in the inpatient program she like dives into how much of it is a perfectionism uh disorder yeah so it's It's like that's why all of them are like, I am the best one. So like the girl who literally is starving herself to death, like one of the characters is really losing so much weight. But she thinks she's better than everyone else. She's like, I'm still better than all of you guys. So it's like it's so miserable for the people that have it because it's even like an ego thing. Like they feel good for doing it well. So yeah, it was reminding me of her book a lot. Um, but then you even go through how then, uh, new moms, the like,

everything that new moms are obsessed with is bouncing back. Yes. Yes. Get like every stage of your life. No matter. That's what I couldn't believe. Yeah. That's that that's what I couldn't believe is, you know, I, you know, I mean, so when I worked as a stripper, okay, fine, right? You're making your money off your looks fine. But, you know, being a stay at home mom, you know, get a group of women. together and what are we doing we're talking about that you know we want to lose weight and and then but then you can even say well i mean not really but you could even say well well maybe or something i don't know but then but then even then now that i'm an engineer get a group of women together you know these a lot of them will be able for people were accomplished women right people who have solid good jobs who are making

money out their minds right like these are really confident women who will tell you you know you're this wrong and this is why I'm here so you got to fix it but you know have lunch with them they'll be like oh my god I feel like I fayed like 20 pounds you know like and and uh and it's it's you get a group of women together it's one of the things that we we all do you know and it just so I kind of just I just wanted to and I'm not I'm not trying to throw shade on anybody I'm just trying to like look at this really really complex thing you know I really wanted to look at it from all sides in my book on just all the different all the different angles you know yeah yeah it's really interesting you bring that up because i mean i was sitting there like i think i wrote this in my review like i was

zoning out during this book because i felt like it was saying so much but then it was also like fun and messy and like i felt like it could be like a really awesome reality tv show i don't know like like yeah like it didn't so many things but then i was like well you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't because of all the things we're talking about. Very much. But then I, yeah, like you were just saying now, I couldn't help think. Yeah.

Like, how do I, how do we talk about this book to let people know? Mm-hmm. I can just see people assuming right away, like, about the fitness world. I don't want to read about skinny people. I don't want to read about this. And I mean, but it's not, like, it's exactly what you would want it to be, if that's how you thought it might, you know, like, it goes against what you think it might be in the best way. And I, yep.

Yep. Yep, we were actually worried about that. Yeah. I'm like, no, it's not that. Yeah. Yeah. I know. We were both like, we just feel like personally inspired to like make sure people know.

Like, yeah. Not that book. Like, there's no shame in this book. There's just like, like, the characters struggle, like, with their own, like, inner critic and, like, the way they talk to each of them. Yeah, we were a blackstone, I think they were a little bit worried about that. You know, there's been fear that it could potentially have like a good read to take down or something. I don't know, but I think, but so far it's been well received. I think I've had about 40 or so reviews.

And people have said, you know, there were some people who went into it saying that they were afraid it was going to be a book that was going to make them feel bad. And if anything, it was an uplifting, an uplifting book. Because really the message of the book is, and especially, so I'm 54, right? So I've lived a long time. And if you've lived this long, you've seen how, how society's standards constantly change, right? You can never please everybody, right? You'll never, ever, ever please everybody. It's an elusive standard.

Beauty is an elusive standard. And so instead, you know, that's why the thrust of the book is to get strong, right? because that's, you know, if your goal is to say walk a mile or to do a pushup or to, you know, squat 100 pounds, I mean, these are, these are, you can set goals for yourself, attainable goals and whatever those are for you. And you can see yourself slowly start to hit these and you can start to attain some confidence and that that's, is when I had written this book and it was called body wars, that was ultimately how you were going to win the body war was by walking away, right?

by walking away from what society wants and instead walking towards getting strong and instead of tearing others down working together to look them up yeah that was ultimately like what the the thrust of the book was supposed to be you know yeah yeah yeah i feel like you know so the thing that i really enjoyed too um was was just the variety of perspectives like because even there's not just two perspectives even. So it's like, it's like also like, um, Ashley has experiences with like doctors just like disregarding her. Yes. Overweight. And like that is something that happens. It really is something. Yeah. But then on the flip side, you tech, it's technically true that not being overweight will make your health better overall. So it's a fact. It doesn't mean that we have to have shame either way.

where your body is. But I thought it was just really cool that like I was still seeing little bits of like all of that in there. And like, where was I going with this specifically? Oh, this is where I was going with it. I feel like on both sides of the perspectives, you had like sometimes some like snarky commentary on it. Like sometimes it would still have like that feeling. But I still felt like the tone of the overall book. was really neutral. It wasn't prescriptive and it wasn't saying like and this it well I mean going for strong is kind of the prescription I guess in some ways but I thought it was cool that like you even did like kind of like sub perspectives on each sides yeah of the perspective and how even a lot of the things are true in different ways but mainly it's just like let's not use those things to like shame each other on either side. And I think if we can understand, like I just wanted to make, I just tried to make it so that you could understand where everybody was at least, even if it was disguised where they were coming from, like what sort of background that they had that that brought them to that place that that's really, you know, that that's why they think, you know, like they do, right? So that you could have some, you know, either like some compassion for them as a reader or just have some understanding as to, you know, you know,

why it's you know why they're thinking that way you know yeah yeah i also really loved like for example and kiley's perspectives because yeah sitting there thinking about like you know there's always been athletes and coaches but then now there's social media and you're trying to make a living as a coach or you know whatever your job is and you're posting pictures and then there's Andrew who I'm like man this almost seems a little satirical and over the top but it's not like there are people out there who live to scroll and make comments and are judging on body types yeah have no business they do not work hard yeah they're like living in the basement with their parents right yeah literally it is fascinating because like those are the those are those moments where like

that Andrew type of guy or Kylie who would, well, I'm going to hire you to do this, but I'm actually going to judge you and comment on your stuff because I wasn't willing to do the work and I'm going to blame you. And so it's amazing to even those other perspectives because it describes how I think even if you are, let's say you're in the fitness world and you're going up on a skate age and literally getting judged for every lump in body on your body and what size and how it's shaped. And then you have people still, like, calling you out on social media, and it's just wild. So I think it's too hard because you make so many assumptions about what you're not, right, unless you've gone through at all.

And I think there's people saying, well, oh, it must be so nice to be so skinny, blah, blah, blah. And then other people are, I don't know, it's just there's so much to say. And I think you did it so well, especially with adding those little touches of those extra characters. Okay. Well, thank you. This book is so good. going to probably babble about it. I know. Thank you. Thank you. I, I'm, I, I, I, I'm, I, I, I, I've, I've, I've written a book or not a book. I've written an article, um, maybe like four years ago for Strong Fitness magazine. It was, it was called, um, it was called, why be small,

a manifesto. And they, they, they, they bought it, but they were like, but can you make it less manifesto? It should more about, like, why your goals should include, like, getting strong or strength training or something. So I did. I kind of rewrote it and we renamed it. But I always kind of wanted that manifesto. And I kind of felt like this book is like my manifesto, you know? And I took my first paragraph from that article.

And it's in that book. It starts one of Ashley's chapters. Or maybe it doesn't start it, but for sure that paragraph, the paragraph that I had opened that article with ultimately got cut from that. It didn't make it to print. And I really like that paragraph. So I put it in Bodies to Die for somewhere. But I can almost even do the paragraph off the top of my head, sort of.

It's something like it was like in line at the grocery store, the magazine headline jumps out at me, who's five pounds in a week. A commercial on TV wants to help me drop two dress sizes in a month. A post on Instagram wants to help me achieve a thigh gap. They all want to help me be small. they can all bite me in my big juicy boots. That was my opening on that article. I really liked it. But they were like, yeah, it's too manifestoish.

And they lined it. So I kept it and I put it in this book. And I really feel like it's kind of like my manifesto. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really, it feels like that. And I did want to ask like, how does it feel that like you wrote a book that incorporated

so many of the messages that you've been getting since childhood in adulthood, like through all of it, how did it feel getting to like write this book about all of those experiences? I'm so, so, so grateful. So, you know, I think, I can't remember if I mentioned it earlier. I had written a whole other book before this. I think I mentioned that right earlier. I wrote a whole other book, didn't sell it, whatever.

But that was a book I think I had to write for me. But this book here, like, I, I, really like I dedicated it to all women everywhere like I felt like I had to write this book more like the world like I had to get this out there and while I was you know once I got it mostly done right and I was starting to really feel good about it like I was like you know this is what I want to say this is what I want to say and I remember thinking to myself like I'm going to get it out there I don't care what it takes I'm going to get it out there if I have to you know I'm going to like query every freaking agent in the world I will and if

And if they won't, if I can't get an agent, I will put it up on Amazon. I'll give it away for free if I have to. Like I'm getting this out there, man. It's going to get out there. And so to have it actually be out there. And then to have, I've had, you know, some people that have, you know, first of all, I've had, you know, I've read some different Goodreads, you know, reviews for like, you can tell by, like, the things, like, there's been different lines that people have lifted out of it that they've liked. And they've said, I love this.

line of like, I remember writing that line. And I really liked it too. To have it to have it resonate with people has been really rewarding. And then also I've, even even when it was, when I already knew it was going to be published, but before I even had arched yet, and I started to then talk, I didn't talk at all until I knew it was like it could be out there. But once I've been talking about it now and I tell like different people about it, what I cannot get over is everybody's got their own diet culture horror stories. You know, like, I can't, I've had so many people tell me, like, so many, like, you know, childhood fat camps or, like, moms on, like, constant diets

or, like, please see what goes in their lunch boxes or putting them on diets and, like, your grandmother's telling them that they took this way. And it's, it's, it's made me kind of feel like I'm really glad I got it out there because a lot of other people were feeling these thoughts and that I um you know there's just plenty of articles about it but this was this was fiction it was something i could kind of slip in you know like i could kind of get that message in without beating everybody over the head with it you know um yeah you know so that's i don't know yeah i've been banging on my drum for like like like 15 years about lifting weights and like getting strong and like i mean like so so to be able to

put it into a story instead of just exhaust everybody that I know about it. I almost was good. Yes. Yeah. That's what I thought was like the coolest. Like I think I tried to find multiple ways to say it in my review how there is this great message going on. And there's also this like totally classically good, can't be thriller world going on.

Like I'm not going to say some of the things because they definitely are spoilers. But some of the ways that are included. like bits of the fitness world into murder was like yeah so cool there's also this whole fun thriller thing happening yeah as well as a message happening yeah well yes part of it is just it's just so insane that like i mean there's just it's just right what the you know bodybuilding competitions it's just it's just ripe material you know yeah um so it was uh it was fun to be able to kind of like just you know well what if what if this has happened and what if that happened and just to kind of um you know play with it a bit it was kind of fun

it was so fun I so a few things one my a nutrition coach that I have worked with I when I post about reading your book and the first page I thought it was super bold that you put like macros on there because I was like damn here we go right so I think I posted that and she's like as a nutrition coach she lives in this world and I said how when the first people died and she just like oh my god And so it was so awesome that way. It was amazing. And then two, speaking of the first,

the lines that really resonated, one for me was, frankly, they are insane. Most people aren't. That's why most people don't win. And I thought that was perfect and spot on. It's true.

It's true, man. It's true, right? That's okay. Like, not everyone's body can run a marathon. Yes.

Some people can do it well, and that's okay. You know, like it's just different. people are built for different stuff. And then my last question that I had was, where do you think that the bodybuilder or the fitness world is going? Do you feel like it's going in the best direction?

Because, like, I see people probably like my mom's age when I was training and how now it's kind of like, at least in the world that I've been in, it is cool to be strong now. It's cool to be like a little, like, thicker and have muscle. and it was awesome. And there were these women I was training. I was like, come on, X person. Like, let's get, like, let's work on that butt. Like, let's go.

Like, cool to have my butt now. And she's like, oh, my God, no. You know, because she, it's like pancake better than for that age. It came to be bad. Is she 50, is she 50 year old? Is she 50 year old? Like my mom's age. And I'm just like, I, it was, you couldn't convince someone that,

it was okay to have a butt, you know what I mean? Let alone, just strive for. So I just, I'm hoping that this community is going in a direction that's a little more like healthy and positive, but I wanted to see where, what your thoughts on that were. So I think, I think it is for for the younger generation, right? I think that they, they weren't raised quite as messed up as like, you know, my generation was raised. Um, but I still see. So, right. Now, I'm only teaching yoga classes. There have been at different points where I've taught group fitness and where I've taught spinning. But I, as the last group fitness class I taught, it was a group strength class was maybe three months ago or something.

I just, I just, you know, did it as a sub. But I still see people who are probably my age or older. Well, I'll even say, I'm thinking of what, you know, I'll sometimes see people who are like, say 60, or 55, you know, or so. And they'll, they'll want to be, they'll want to be thin, but they'll be afraid of, they'll still say they're afraid of getting too bulky. And I'll be, I'll be talking to somebody who's like,

five, four and 105 pounds. Okay. And she's maybe like 55, right? So I'm 54. So at, at my age plus, it's with the hormonal profile that you're going to have, you know, it's going to be everything you can do to put some muscle on. Like, like, you can do it, right?

You can do it. But it's not like you're just going to wake up bulky tomorrow. Like you're, you got, you got plenty of nervous, right? It's going to take a really long time and a really concerted effort. So I think, I think it's just, I would hope, you know, we do see people my age and older who are. You know, I see them on Instagram and things, you know, people who are embracing lifting weights. I see them at the gym, but there is still that, there's still a set of women. And I think, I think it's because they were raised in that, that environment that, you know,

I was kind of raised in. I think it's just sort of brainwashed them, you know. I don't know what else to, you know, maybe, maybe, sometimes they come around. I mean, like I said, I see people who are my age or older, who are lifting weights or so. Woman, I, I look who I see every Saturday and Sunday at East Bank Club where I lift who's in phenomenal shape. but she's probably like five pounds more than me and probably has 10 pounds more muscle that or maybe not.

But she's got a lot, but she's built man. And I'm like so impressed by her. She can lift more than I can lift. And I don't know. I'm really impressed. But so I think that I think the overall, the general, I think it's been a good. I think we've seen so much progress, right? We've seen so much progress.

We've also seen women's sports be more embraced and not just. just, you know, not just gymnastics, but, you know, because I was a gymnast, but we've seen like many, many more, you know, like women's rowing is being embraced, you know, or we've seen like, we've seen their emergence of CrossFit with women across it, maybe in the last like 10 years or so, and that, that's, that's been huge. So we're definitely, we're definitely seeing, I think we're moving in a right, in the right direction. I, um, I hope it stays that way. I, because I think the more that you value, getting strong, the less, the less you, the less you worry about how you look to somebody else, you know, because it's just, it's just too much of an exterior, it's too much

of an exterior vague thing, you know, but if you can say, I can snatch a hundred pounds, you can snatch a hundred pounds. There's nobody can take that way from you, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I really, I really like that, you know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I do think that, yeah, because I don't feel like the younger generations. I mean, every generation is probably going to have people who get obsessed with the body standard because it's never going to go away. But I do think more people like, because it was still, I'm 32. Oh, you're 32? Okay. Yeah.

And when I was in high school, that was, it was like just, I feel like it was just my senior year that all of a sudden people were kind of like, girls could lift weights and not be. like it was the first time but it was like shocking even at that time but I feel like the classes beneath me probably did not grow up feeling that way okay it seems like a more healthy um it just seems like there there's potentially but I've only raised sons right so I did I didn't have I don't know step to the kids to or Kate do they're one of you guys have kids I don't I have two steps I have two steps on two are 11 and 14 and honestly, with the rise of social media, there have been, like, comments made about, like, their own bodies that I am just, like, shocked by.

And I think it's because they're constantly scrolling through stuff and, like, the interest in supplements and the interest, I mean, they're fabulous for brought up once. And I was like, is this real life? Like, I just couldn't believe it. So I think there's a whole different. way of finding body inspiration, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually think it's harder for, I think it's where it's maybe gotten a little bit easier

for women in the last 10 years. I think it might have gotten a little harder for men. Like when I was growing up, nobody really paid much attention to other than like a boy being big and strong. But like there wasn't, I don't think that there was quite as much pressure. think on guys then to be to be as like in shape as there might be now i can see that i could potentially be wrong i can see that yeah that's a good point though they are a generation that are seeing more perfect yeah we have these short clips right of like this was my beginning and this is my

end and maybe three years went by but it looks that just happened really yeah so it is uh yeah it is interesting. Yeah, that's like in my in my book, I think in the first chapter, I just talking about the befores and the afters, right? Like Gemma was before and now she, or now she's an after, but like, you know, just the prevalence of, of that. And, you know, and, you know, I can see it being like inspirational for, for somebody, but it can also be, you know, if you see yourself in Europe before, you know, like how, how that might feel, you know, when Gemma, or when, or when it actually see somebody who who looks an awful lot like her netbex him before you know um how that can just you know what what that can maybe how they can make somebody feel but i think ultimately you know

you're you're sort of also you know if watching certain things on social media like if you don't like certain aspects of it you maybe don't want to be you know certain certain but which is why uh yeah so i i don't know it's it's it's really tricky right it's it's super tricky and I don't I don't think I have all the answers which is one of the reasons why I just kind of like wanted to write about it and explore it because it's such a it's such a complex

it's such a complex thing you know yeah it really is yeah yeah and that's why it was ultimately just to be kind you know exactly as I was reading your book like pretty simple actually too because it was like as

as we're writing like for example someone like Andrew one of the characters in your book I'm like, why would you even write that? Couldn't you just keep scrolling? Like, why are people even writing things on people's stuff? Like, it just blows my mind. So, I mean, hopefully people can learn something or reexamine their actions a little bit if they read your book. Yeah.

Yeah, I hope so. You know, I think it's Mike Tyson. I'm going to get the quote wrong. I heard some quote by him just a little while ago, something like social media has made you all way too. comfortable disrespecting people without worried about getting punched in the face, something like that. You know, but I grew up. Like you couldn't say things like that because if you did, you'd have to say it to a person's face and you actually might get punched in the face.

But now, you know, now there's a anonymity factor, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that is the whole other thing that we haven't talked about in this book, but it also examined social media in really cool ways as well. Yeah. especially since where a lot of the body image conversations are happening. Yeah. Yeah. And I was,

I was kind of deliberate in the, so, you know, the first part of the book, it just goes, you know, Gemma, Ashley,

Gemma, Ashley, you kind of fall into that, that lull, just back and forth, back and forth. But they've been living their lives on, on social media,

right? And so the last post, right before you get into Peak week is from Andrew. And it's in a third point of view, right? The other two have been in first person point of view. use. So all of a sudden, you're like kind of more removed and you're up and you're looking in on these two and you just realize like there's been somebody watching this whole time, right?

This whole time you guys have all been carrying on. There's been another person watching you guys. And so that was, yeah, that's that's and that's right where that it kind of amps up and you, you fall into peak week and then everything just goes crazy. But, you know, because, you know, we, we often, we think we're, we're living our lives, but you know, We throw all the stuff out there, but there's, you know, other people are watching you live that life, you know? Right. You welcome others. I mean, I'm on Instagram myself, right?

So, like, you're, you know, you are welcoming other people into your world a bit. And you just have to be aware of that, you know? So. Mm-hmm. And you went there with that perspective. I was like, whoa, in like a good way. I mean, I mean, you don't know what people are, well, you just said, you invite people in. you don't look you're looking for.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would be a few goals, because I mean, I'm like,

that's probably 100% true. Like, you know. 20% of those followers. Yeah. Anyway. Now everyone needs to read it so they can know what we're talking about. She goes there. I know, and it felt very male.

It felt like a man wrote it. Okay. A man was writing, man. Yes, yes, yes. I felt the same way. Because I was like, wow, when you read a multiple perspective book and it really feels like you're really in a different person's brain, I find that so impressive. Yeah. All right.

All right. Thanks. He was fun to write. He was really fun to write. I bet. Yeah. Yeah. I bet.

Did you attend for it to be like a little satirical or was your intention like this is what I see and this is what happens? Because I couldn't really. It seemed almost like a satire, but not really. So what was you thought? Yeah. So I. So some of the stuff that I wanted to do. I wanted to be like as I saw, but some of it is so ridiculous that it is funny.

You know what I mean? There's just parts about it that are just like stuff that we experience and that we live. It's it's just crazy some of it. And I kind of wanted to plumb that craziness. Also, you know, if you're going to, a thriller has a lot of dark elements. And this, you know, this book, it's exploring some kind of dark elements, right? There's some heavy subject matter, you know, with the body shaming and the body wars and things like that. that if you can, if you can lighten it up a little bit, you know, you introduce some levity.

And it, I think it just helps to make it be more entertaining. I also think if you're able to, if you can laugh about something, you don't have to cry about it, you know. And it was, it was, it was funny initially. I think Kate, you had seen, or maybe you had seen in the, in the, at the very back when I, when I originally wrote this book, when I was querying it, originally I only queried women. I didn't think any, I just didn't, I didn't think a guy would, I just didn't see a, a male agent, really, I didn't think he didn't know what we were talking about, right? But there was this one agent who I really admired, right?

He's kind of like, like an agent for the stars, right? And I thought, well, you know, you missed 100% of the chances you don't take. And so I queried him. I didn't get him as an agent, but I queried him on a Saturday night. I'll never forget this. I sent the query off. God, at like 10 o'clock or something on a Saturday night. Because I was just querying people like crazy back then.

And then I went to bed. I woke up at 2 in the morning. And because I'm in the thick of querying, what do I do? I check my phone to see if I have any, any email. Right? So 2 in the morning, I look at my phone. And he wrote me back. And so like in the middle of the night.

And he's in California. And I was like, whoa. And so I read it. And he said, you know, he's, He thought it was, he thought it sounded, it looked good, but he's not taking any new clients right now. But he recommended a different, a younger agent that he knew that he thought might find it appealing. He said, you see that other agent. And I thought that was the last of it.

But then an hour later, maybe even two hours later, he emailed one more time. He goes, oh, one more thing. If you could, if you could make it the tone, I think if you can get the tone right, you know, you might have something. he goes, I think if you can make the tone subversive, you might have something. And so I, um, I, like, wrote the word subversive on a pink post-it note. I stuck it on my, the inside of my bathroom mirror. And I kind of like honed it on that subversive, you know, like I wanted to make it subversive and, um, and just kind of explore that, you know, with, with, like, that

dark humor of a bit if I could. And that's, uh, kind of where it went. Yeah. And so that was the only, and so the guy, the agent that I have as a guy, those are the only, the only guys they've queried out of like, like 60 people. It was all all women. And then when we were going to take the book out, I think my agent took it to maybe six or eight acquiring editors. And only one of those was a guy. And it was Daniel Aaron Hufft, I think is how you pronounce it at Blackstone, who bought it. So you never know, right?

You never know who something's going to be able to. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a cool story. Yeah, I loved that though when I read that in the acknowledgment about subversive because I was like, yes, that is exactly what I just read. Yeah, I like leaned into it, man. Yeah. And I think that's what made it still kind of like neutral enough to just like explore all of the sides. I feel like that really helps. So you know, there was a there's a bookstagramer who when she reviewed it, she said it reminded her a little bit of fight club.

and the bibliopiques is the book the bookstore. But I felt like I was kind of channeling Fight Club a bit when I wrote it, actually. So it was really interesting that she picked up on that. But yeah. Another book, another book that was when Steph, I think you had pointed out the macros and the top of some of those chapters. So I had kind of stole sort of that idea from the book, Dietland. Did you guys ever read Diet Land?

You must read Diet Land. Oh my God. Diet Land came out like 10, 12 years ago. It was so good. But anyway, throughout Diet Land, she drops calories constantly. She'll be like, so she had like a granola bar. Then she'll put in parentheses 120 or she'll have some coffee. Free food in parentheses.

But throughout there, yes, Diet Land by Sarai Walker. Yep. Uh-huh. And you can. And that is. So I think who described it. It might have been BuzzFeed. Somebody described it as,

as Fight Club meets Margaret Atwood. It's, it's really good. It's, it's really good. It's, but you can, I feel like you can see echoes of diet land in, in my book.

Nice. You got to read it. You guys both have to read it. You guys have to read it. It's so good. Yeah. It's, it's women,

women like go women who are tired of being objectified like they like start to destroy they should just tear things down like men fall for the sky her alley oh my god so that's what you're her alley yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but anyway but yeah i can't remember um my last one was because i forgot last time we talked to an author about this do you know who's narrating your audio book and um oh so i'm not off the top of my head um i'd have to like dig back through my email or something my um by so my agent when we signed the contract this was actually good of him he wrote into our contract that we got final approval of the narrators and so there there's three different narrators there's there's a woman for ashley there's a woman for jemma and then there's a third person a male one who does all the third person point of views

And so Blackstone sent us three different narrators for each different voice, so a total of nine. And my agent and I got to choose which ones we wanted. So I technically know, but I don't remember who they were. Because I'm not big into audio books. So, like, their names didn't mean much to me. But, yeah. I just think it's awesome to get a full cast, especially for one of your first books, like one of your first books have a full cast audio is awesome because I think people love that.

So I think I hope so I'm not I'm not a I'm not much of an audio book you know listener and it's so interesting so when he had written that into the contract I didn't think much of it right I thought oh you know sure whatever because I didn't think I'd have much of an opinion on on who narrated it and then we heard these voices and the guys I was like yeah okay like maybe this one and Gemma like I was like okay I think like one of these two. but on Ashley the first person I heard I was like oh that is not what Ashley sounds like I was like I just I knew for sure that that was not Ashley and so I'm really glad that he wrote that in because I didn't yeah I didn't I didn't I don't know why but I just knew that that wasn't Ashley I was like that's the wrong voice so it did matter to me you know that's cool yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah so if there will be an audio book it's for sure coming out in audio. Yeah. Nice. I can't remember where I read this. It might have been, you know what it was? I think it was, I read your article with Hallie Sutton on her. Oh yeah. Yeah, her blogger or too many tabs.

Too many tabs. There we are. Your sub-sac. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's what it was. Your sub-dact. But you are working on another book right now that kind of tackle some fun themes too. Yeah. Yeah. So now this one hasn't sold yet. We haven't taken it out yet. I think we're close to taking it out.

But one of the themes that tackles, one of the main characters in this book is going to be an only fans creator. And it's tackling the topic of sex work, right? You know, because I actually think that, I think that sex work should be decriminalized. And I think it's a human rights thing. I think it's a woman's rights thing, right? Like, I think we should be able to do what we want with our bodies, right?

If you want to make money off your body, you ought to be able to, right? And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of interested in is that that, that area where people tell us what we can and can't do with our bodies. So yes, that's where I'm going next. I don't know if we'll be able to sell it. I hope we can sell it. It's so hard to sell it. I will, I will sell it to murder. Like, we'll figure it out.

Dang, Laura. I'm interested. And I know. I know. I hope like after I read your thing about how you like felt called to write this book, I was like, obviously I think that's so cool. But I was like, I hope that means she feels called to write other books too. Yeah. I hope there will be another one. So I'm super excited that there's going to be another one. I just can't wait to be interviewing about interviewing you about that one in the future. We'll just put that out there. Yeah. This is what I'm hoping. I'm hoping. that, you know, if we sell it, I'm hoping it won't take two years to come out.

This one right now, bodies to die for it's, it's two years from when we sold it. You know, it's a really long, publishing is so slow, man. I can't even, I can't even, I can't even slow. It's crazy. Isn't it crazy? Yeah. And it's, it's just, it's, it's so crazy too that like all of it is, at least for fiction, or at least if you're, if you're like me, it's all done like with the hope

that it will work. yeah at least with like nonfiction like you write it on proposal or like if you're like a further like if you're if you're a bigger name author like you can you can sell a book without having to write the whole thing but like if you're me you like write the whole book and and and hope somebody buys it you know right so it's crazy yeah it's very different it's rough yeah but that's what's so nice though about how how now um some people are self-publishing too which which I think it's been a good thing, you know, because there's more options and things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can always, you can basically always decide to do that if you wanted to.

Yeah. It just seems like a lot of work though to do like that's a lot. That's not like, that's not like my area. You're like I like to like write the work and everything, but like to have to do the business aspect of it. Just yeah. You know, it seems like a lot of work, you know, a lot of work that I'm not interested. It definitely is. Yeah. It's like my friend, Audra, who I'm about to who's going to be on here soon. she has self-published two books in the time that it like took I don't know basically like her agents were taking forever and so she was like I'm just like we're just gonna go I'm just gonna publish yeah and she's had like good result but she has talks about everything that she has to do for it so yeah yeah yeah yeah and then and then you're all you're you know you're the one

that's paying for all that too like right traditionally published you know you're you're you're not out anything right you know they pay you so that that's the other thing too so it is i don't know i don't know i just thought i double check my email that my copy is getting delivered tomorrow so yeah really okay nice oh you don't have a copy i think you had a net galley ebook oh you mean like a uh a hard cover yeah my barns and noble email came in that i'm getting my book tomorrow. But isn't it early? I thought it was coming out late.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, because it's the release dates, it's Jude 11th, but maybe it comes, I have no idea why it's really. I don't know, but maybe, maybe they're just failing it early. I'm not sure. Maybe my, no, it was because I thought it seemed early as well.

There was another book I recently got that got to me early too, but it seems like full circle, right? Like you've been waiting so long and now people are like starting to get their pre-orders, which is, pretty cool. Oh, I know. Yeah, but it, it, it, I remember the first time holding it in my hands, you know, um, it's, it's really something, you know, to, uh, to go from like what, what was, it looked completely in your head and now here it is in your hands. It's, it's just crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's a really good feel. I mean, it's like, it's like, it's like,

yeah, there's like having your kids. And then there's like having your book. Yeah, like your kids are in 10, your book's like a nine, you know. It's like right under there, you know. Yeah. That's so cool. I think so, too. Yeah. Well, I am looking forward to posting more about it or as the release date comes.

So reminding everyone to read it. Please do. Please do. There's so many books, you know, they get released all the time. So like any, any help I can get is so appreciating. because there's just thousands and thousands of books that just continue to get released, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, if you have been listening to this podcast, you want to read this book. Buy the book. I think it applies to most of our thriller readers.